H-1B Willful Violator List of Employers(dol.gov)
dol.gov
H-1B Willful Violator List of Employers
https://www.dol.gov/whd/immigration/H1Bwillfulviolator.htm
168 comments
> I can't believe in this day and age that anyone is arguing H1Bs aren't a means to get access to cheap labor. ...If you deny this exists, you don't work in the tech sector.
Believe me. I work in the tech sector and I find H-1Bs cost us a lot more, and always have (~25 years of reluctantly hiring H-1B folks from time to time).
There's a ton of paperwork that takes time and costs money and it delays hiring the person. You also have to pay more than the "prevailing wage" which is hardly a burden since I'm already going through all the hassle -- because it's someone we can't find any other way so we're already planning on paying them more. We resort to it when we can't find someone local, which mean we start this slow process after already spending time trying to find someone.
I don't see any problem with this burden BTW (I mean I would like it to be more convenient of course, but the idea that there is a bit of "trade barrier" to bringing in someone from outside rather than hiring a local doesn't seem like a terrible thing). And I'm an immigrant myself.
YES I understand there are H-1B sweatshops bringing in low-paid, not really qualified drudges. They are a problem and they game the system in numerous bad ways (including sucking up all the H-1s making it harder for startups to bring in exceptional people).
But they are two disjoint problems -- the basic idea of H-1 is a good one.
Believe me. I work in the tech sector and I find H-1Bs cost us a lot more, and always have (~25 years of reluctantly hiring H-1B folks from time to time).
There's a ton of paperwork that takes time and costs money and it delays hiring the person. You also have to pay more than the "prevailing wage" which is hardly a burden since I'm already going through all the hassle -- because it's someone we can't find any other way so we're already planning on paying them more. We resort to it when we can't find someone local, which mean we start this slow process after already spending time trying to find someone.
I don't see any problem with this burden BTW (I mean I would like it to be more convenient of course, but the idea that there is a bit of "trade barrier" to bringing in someone from outside rather than hiring a local doesn't seem like a terrible thing). And I'm an immigrant myself.
YES I understand there are H-1B sweatshops bringing in low-paid, not really qualified drudges. They are a problem and they game the system in numerous bad ways (including sucking up all the H-1s making it harder for startups to bring in exceptional people).
But they are two disjoint problems -- the basic idea of H-1 is a good one.
The way you are intending to use H1Bs is appropriate and fine. The way it is actually used is very different. It's mostly used by large spaghetti code factories that over promise and under deliver, pocketing the difference. I am not proud that my country imports foreign workers and works them to death, nor is it okay that they are taking jobs actual Americans can do.
If a system has a good basic idea but is flawed in practice, we should abolish it, no? At the moment, no one is properly served by the H1B lottery except these outsourcing firms.
If a system has a good basic idea but is flawed in practice, we should abolish it, no? At the moment, no one is properly served by the H1B lottery except these outsourcing firms.
There are people we can't get without it. How would you replace or reform it to end abuse?
BTW I don't believe my experience is atypical.
BTW I don't believe my experience is atypical.
The obvious problem here is that the real beneficiaries of H1B abuse are companies our parents have heard of, but the named violators are the 1099 body shops they source from, who nobody has heard of.
Good point.
I was always thinking about how bodyshops benefits from Microsoft/Google/etc. lobbying in favor of H1b.
But you are right - bodyshops return the favor back to these tech giants by placing these contractors there.
I was always thinking about how bodyshops benefits from Microsoft/Google/etc. lobbying in favor of H1b.
But you are right - bodyshops return the favor back to these tech giants by placing these contractors there.
There is another problem that is eating away at the salary numbers of H1Bs its called full time Curriculum Practical Training(CPT). Basically it was intended to be a internship for students on an F-1(student) visa. Now many universities have
"Full time CPT[1]" that allows students to work 12 months at a time. This itself is legal[2]. But I have seen many universities are gaming the system like:[3]. Often times no real classes but only "training" is offered for real work preparation. Enrollment bars are pretty low and there is no easy way to determine how big this problem is.
[1] http://international.syr.edu/current-students/employment-ssn... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/complete-correct-form-i-9/... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-univer...
[1] http://international.syr.edu/current-students/employment-ssn... [2] https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/complete-correct-form-i-9/... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/06/nyregion/new-jersey-univer...
I worked in a US Embassy consular section as a summer hire working with H1B visas. Part of my job was to check that the companies were real. I was amazed how many were fraudulent, even companies where we already had the DHS paperwork to issue the visa. When I say fraudulent, I mean the addresses and phone numbers for the company simply did not belong to any company. They were incredibly transparent fronts for illegal immigration.
I see one from my home state of Iowa. Worldwide Software Services, Inc. As a proud native-born, raised and college educated Iowan that had to leave to Chicago and Austin to find work, I will taking extra time to harass and shame them. Companies like this are part of the reason why we can't find jobs and have to migrate like cattle for them.
A good example where mob rule will be a good thing. I have my pitchfork ready.
Thank you for this link.
A good example where mob rule will be a good thing. I have my pitchfork ready.
Thank you for this link.
Why can't you live off of the same salary as the 'cheap' workers? Sounds to me that you think you are entitled to something...
Are you entitled to jobs in my country? Get a job whatever 3rd world wasteland you're from. Yes I am entitled to jobs in my own country.
So it's entitlement to want to exercise the democratic process to push for policies that won't decrease wages wholesale? Are you against the democratic process?
If this is the list then I would say DoJ is not doing a good job. The level of H1B corruption in USA is lot more than the level of corruption in Government offices in India. Here are some malpractices I have observed in consultancies:
1. Employers takes money from an individual to file H1B. Charges are typically $4k. 2. Employer runs a fake payroll pays peanuts to the employee while showing a bug salary on paper. 3. Consultancy creates fake resume of its employees and the real work is then done by someone sitting in India. For example Consultancy hires Ms. X on H1B with no work experience. Ms X then works as consultant for an large E-Commerce giant through this consultancy through a fake resume that shows that she has 7 years of experience. Ms X cant code so she calls up a India office of the consultancy who do all the work sometimes even by screen sharing. 4. Hiring managers of large companies are bribed to discriminate against normal Americans and hire these H1Bs through consultancies. 5. Ms x working for consultancy X gets a call from a large company in bay area for interview. Ms Y goes and answers and clears the interview but Ms X joins as employee. In fact answering interview for others is what Ms Y does full time. 6. For telephonic interview many of these consultancies have setup complex systems where Ms Y answers the interiview on Skype but she has a teleprompter in front of her.
Fake H1B:
A lot of these consultancies employ people on H4,F1 or any other visa by telling their customers that these people have H1B. I suspect the large giant companies in bay area already know all this but it works on either don't as or don't tell basis or the hiring managers are bribed.
What I find most upsetting is that the media, overall tech industry does not discuss this at all.
1. Employers takes money from an individual to file H1B. Charges are typically $4k. 2. Employer runs a fake payroll pays peanuts to the employee while showing a bug salary on paper. 3. Consultancy creates fake resume of its employees and the real work is then done by someone sitting in India. For example Consultancy hires Ms. X on H1B with no work experience. Ms X then works as consultant for an large E-Commerce giant through this consultancy through a fake resume that shows that she has 7 years of experience. Ms X cant code so she calls up a India office of the consultancy who do all the work sometimes even by screen sharing. 4. Hiring managers of large companies are bribed to discriminate against normal Americans and hire these H1Bs through consultancies. 5. Ms x working for consultancy X gets a call from a large company in bay area for interview. Ms Y goes and answers and clears the interview but Ms X joins as employee. In fact answering interview for others is what Ms Y does full time. 6. For telephonic interview many of these consultancies have setup complex systems where Ms Y answers the interiview on Skype but she has a teleprompter in front of her.
Fake H1B:
A lot of these consultancies employ people on H4,F1 or any other visa by telling their customers that these people have H1B. I suspect the large giant companies in bay area already know all this but it works on either don't as or don't tell basis or the hiring managers are bribed.
What I find most upsetting is that the media, overall tech industry does not discuss this at all.
It seems that opposition to H-1Bs is pretty widespread here. Do most people of this position also support deportation of illegal immigrants, and efforts to curtail illegal immigration? If not, why not? Genuinely interested in learning how those positions are compatible.
I think given Tata, Infosys, Disney and Edison electric's behaviour is plenty of reason for people to be critical of how we have setup H-1B. Illegal immigration is illegal so that is a purely indefensible position to have to be in support of illegal immigration. We have democracy and laws such as H-1B which allow us to bring people into the country on our terms (laws which require scrutiny from time to time). Any migration reform should be done through legislation not willful ignorance of the laws. Otherwise what use is the state if they cannot even do what they say they are going to do?
I didn't expect anyone to be in favour of illegal immigration - what I'm asking about are efforts to curtail illegal immigration and deport existing illegal immigrants? To the extends that laws around H1Bs aren't working, surely the laws around illegal immigration are working even poorer? The population of illegal immigrants is many time higher than the population of H1Bs.
The forces that support the broken and easily abusable H1B system are the same forces that support illegal immigration: the large, entrenched business and banking interests who want to keep wages low (and thus keep their profits high). These forces spend a lot of money lobbying the government to do nothing to curtail illegal immigration, fix the visa system, or punish the abusers.
I'm not sure if you're expecting to get a reply that encapsulates all of HN's users position on this, but probably the reason that you see more H1B talk here is because this site caters to people in the tech industry - affected by H1B's more than the industries that are more affected by illegal immigrants from Mexico.
I'm not sure if you're expecting to get a reply that encapsulates all of HN's users position on this, but probably the reason that you see more H1B talk here is because this site caters to people in the tech industry - affected by H1B's more than the industries that are more affected by illegal immigrants from Mexico.
>what I'm asking about are efforts to curtail illegal immigration and deport existing illegal immigrants? To the extends that laws around H1Bs aren't working, surely the laws around illegal immigration are working even poorer?
No I don't advocate anarchy, I advocate we enforce our border as any state does, in fact its one of the few things I actually think the state is suppose to do. If we cut out just a small fraction of all the stuff the state does which I do not think it is suppose to do this job would be done, and done well and would allow only higher quality individuals into our cities and communities (e.g. not drug dealers and criminals).
>The population of illegal immigrants is many time higher than the population of H1Bs.
Why does this quantity matter in the context of H1Bs, you are confusing two different issues. In one case the law is not enforced, that clearly just needs to be dealt with. H1Bs on the other hand is a legal system which requires refinement at the legislative level, or litigation.
No I don't advocate anarchy, I advocate we enforce our border as any state does, in fact its one of the few things I actually think the state is suppose to do. If we cut out just a small fraction of all the stuff the state does which I do not think it is suppose to do this job would be done, and done well and would allow only higher quality individuals into our cities and communities (e.g. not drug dealers and criminals).
>The population of illegal immigrants is many time higher than the population of H1Bs.
Why does this quantity matter in the context of H1Bs, you are confusing two different issues. In one case the law is not enforced, that clearly just needs to be dealt with. H1Bs on the other hand is a legal system which requires refinement at the legislative level, or litigation.
They are both problems, but with different characteristics. One is an abuse of a law involving fraud and large-scale white collar crime. The thing about white collar crime that makes it especially dire is that amount of money involved, and the damage done, is almost always much greater than low-level street crime.
The other involves illegal border crossings by individuals from a neighboring country or visa-overstaying mostly from South America.
I've personally witnessed a kind of overlap of these problems that went way beyond H1-B fraud and went way into human trafficking and organized crime. In that case a high-tech company was being used as a front for illegal immigration from an Asian country, with no-show workers and other amazing stunts more typical of a corrupt government or union operation. But that was an exceptional case.
The other involves illegal border crossings by individuals from a neighboring country or visa-overstaying mostly from South America.
I've personally witnessed a kind of overlap of these problems that went way beyond H1-B fraud and went way into human trafficking and organized crime. In that case a high-tech company was being used as a front for illegal immigration from an Asian country, with no-show workers and other amazing stunts more typical of a corrupt government or union operation. But that was an exceptional case.
No Disney or Tata?
Why does that website look like it's straight out of 1995? It's a government website, isn't it? Shouldn't it look more modern and professional?
I see a lot of general anger against H-1B visas, so hear me out. There are broadly two kinds of Indians who work in the US legally (I will come to the illegal part later) under H-1B visas.
[1] The first is typically graduates from elite Indian engineering institutions (Indian Institutes of Technology, or a few other institutes) who have either gotten a job offer from a US firm for their US office straight out of college, or have come to the US for graduate school and are now entering the workforce. These are, in an overwhelming majority of cases, NOT cheap labour. They are hired at market rate (sometimes even higher, because they typically have strong profiles), they compete with the rest of the student and larger labour pool and get these jobs based purely on merit. For reference, I have plenty of friends who are in this category (I am too), and all of us get paid competitive market salaries. We are also not beholden to any firm and are pretty free to switch jobs if we desire. A lot of us have paid for graduate school in the US too, so it's not like we are just somehow freeriding. This is the kind of crowd you typically encouter in the Bay Area.
[2] The second category typically consists of people who don't have a stellar educational background, and are mostly hired in India by companies like Infosys, TCS, Wipro et al. for typically very low salaries (say 1/4th or 1/3rd of what a Googler would get in India). They mostly work on outsourced projects that come from other companies (both in India and outside). Often, these workers are then transfered to the US, where they work as vendors for companies such as Microsoft. They are technically employees of TCS or Wipro or whatever (which have branches in the US), and are on the payroll of these companies, but work for companies like Microsoft. This pool of workers is indeed cheap labor for the big cos because they can a) skimp on stuff such as insurance costs b) typically have to pay less anyway c) the low salary is still pretty high compared to what the worker would have otherwise been able to command in India, d) the worker has relatively lower job mobility because their resumes are probably not as 'employable' as Category [1]
Like it or not, [2] far outnumbers [1]. I don't remember the link right now, but these companies apply for in the order of 1000 H-1B visas every year. Most startups etc, for example, apply for a few or in the order of tens at best.
The illegal bit is of course what a few other commenters wrote—there are these 'consulting firms' which will apply for H-1B on your behalf (you pay them $5K or whatever). If you get through the lottery, you can now move to the US on H-1B. You don't have an actual job though you are on the consulting firm's payroll. You then transfer money to them under the table, which they pay back to you as 'salary' because you are on their payroll after all. In the meanwhile, they try to find a job for you. If they can find a job you will then work wherever they set you up and they take a cut of your salary. This is typically done by people who want to accompany their spouses to the US but don't want to be on H-4 visas which don't let you work.
[1] The first is typically graduates from elite Indian engineering institutions (Indian Institutes of Technology, or a few other institutes) who have either gotten a job offer from a US firm for their US office straight out of college, or have come to the US for graduate school and are now entering the workforce. These are, in an overwhelming majority of cases, NOT cheap labour. They are hired at market rate (sometimes even higher, because they typically have strong profiles), they compete with the rest of the student and larger labour pool and get these jobs based purely on merit. For reference, I have plenty of friends who are in this category (I am too), and all of us get paid competitive market salaries. We are also not beholden to any firm and are pretty free to switch jobs if we desire. A lot of us have paid for graduate school in the US too, so it's not like we are just somehow freeriding. This is the kind of crowd you typically encouter in the Bay Area.
[2] The second category typically consists of people who don't have a stellar educational background, and are mostly hired in India by companies like Infosys, TCS, Wipro et al. for typically very low salaries (say 1/4th or 1/3rd of what a Googler would get in India). They mostly work on outsourced projects that come from other companies (both in India and outside). Often, these workers are then transfered to the US, where they work as vendors for companies such as Microsoft. They are technically employees of TCS or Wipro or whatever (which have branches in the US), and are on the payroll of these companies, but work for companies like Microsoft. This pool of workers is indeed cheap labor for the big cos because they can a) skimp on stuff such as insurance costs b) typically have to pay less anyway c) the low salary is still pretty high compared to what the worker would have otherwise been able to command in India, d) the worker has relatively lower job mobility because their resumes are probably not as 'employable' as Category [1]
Like it or not, [2] far outnumbers [1]. I don't remember the link right now, but these companies apply for in the order of 1000 H-1B visas every year. Most startups etc, for example, apply for a few or in the order of tens at best.
The illegal bit is of course what a few other commenters wrote—there are these 'consulting firms' which will apply for H-1B on your behalf (you pay them $5K or whatever). If you get through the lottery, you can now move to the US on H-1B. You don't have an actual job though you are on the consulting firm's payroll. You then transfer money to them under the table, which they pay back to you as 'salary' because you are on their payroll after all. In the meanwhile, they try to find a job for you. If they can find a job you will then work wherever they set you up and they take a cut of your salary. This is typically done by people who want to accompany their spouses to the US but don't want to be on H-4 visas which don't let you work.
And what does this Wall of Shame actually do? Shouldn't the Department of Labor be able to fine them or something rather than just publishing their names?
There's a link to some of the consequences:
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62S...
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62S...
This seems like an exceedingly small list
Yes extremely short. And why all those East Asian names?
Or, a list of those who couldn't afford the right lawyers.
I recommend Cohen & Grigsby.
They'll be happy to show you exactly how to run fake job ads locally in order to exclude American workers, then they'll show you how to use the various loopholes to get around what flimsy regulations exist, in order to get yourself a bunch of low wage immigrant employees who live in fear of losing their job and being sent back home.
See for yourself here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
They'll be happy to show you exactly how to run fake job ads locally in order to exclude American workers, then they'll show you how to use the various loopholes to get around what flimsy regulations exist, in order to get yourself a bunch of low wage immigrant employees who live in fear of losing their job and being sent back home.
See for yourself here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
"Prince George's County Public Schools"
Interesting to find one public school system on the list, out of the entire country (not that I had any expectations on who should be on the list, just that 1 school system out of 13K school districts in the entire country)
Interesting to find one public school system on the list, out of the entire country (not that I had any expectations on who should be on the list, just that 1 school system out of 13K school districts in the entire country)
PG County school district shares a border with Washington, DC, which may be a reason why it got caught and other schools haven't yet. By that I mean, other schools may in fact be in violation, but investigators (who are likely in DC) heard about the practices going on right next door.
Looks like this was the reason for the 2011 violation:
http://www.today.com/id/44708445/ns/today-today_news/t/forei...
with the court ruling of:
http://h1blegalrights.com/2011/07/md-countys-public-schools-...
http://www.today.com/id/44708445/ns/today-today_news/t/forei...
with the court ruling of:
http://h1blegalrights.com/2011/07/md-countys-public-schools-...
Link seems to be down?
None of the largest body shops being present on the list is sad. The H-1B program is all too clearly abused by large "consulting" firms to drive down wages and mistreat visa holding employees under the threat of deportation.
I've often wondered - I know there are requirements for them to "post" those openings before they get the visa - if there is a way for "concerned citizens" to challenge them through the department of labor or something... we could make a website that would let professional engineers volunteer their spare time go down the list of WiPro's (or whatever the big offender companies are) visa requests and call BS on them.
What a joke! This is what it says on the Dept. of Labor site:
Who enforces the requirement for offering jobs to qualified U.S. applicants? Questions or complaints concerning any non-selection should be referred to the U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC), which also administers several statutes concerning employment discrimination based on national origin, citizenship status, and immigration document abuse. OSC may be contacted at 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Wahington, DC 20530, 1-800-255-7688 and http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/ == "PAGE NOT FOUND"
Fuck this.
Who enforces the requirement for offering jobs to qualified U.S. applicants? Questions or complaints concerning any non-selection should be referred to the U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Office of Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices (OSC), which also administers several statutes concerning employment discrimination based on national origin, citizenship status, and immigration document abuse. OSC may be contacted at 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Wahington, DC 20530, 1-800-255-7688 and http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/.
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/ == "PAGE NOT FOUND"
Fuck this.
For anyone looking for the correct link, here it is : https://www.justice.gov/crt/office-special-counsel-immigrati...
But why just google the name of the office and find the correct link when I can throw my hands up and say "fuck this" on a pseudo-anonymous internet forum?
Maybe you missed the part where they cared so little about what they were supposed to be enforcing that the link on a federal website dedicated to enforcement was a dead link. That you can use a third-party search engine to find the site is entirely beside the point that you shouldn't have to.
I apologize, I didn't realize how much of an injustice a 404 could be.
They just have to post it at their place of business, so the public wouldn't have access to them. This is unlike the EB3 process where a job posting has to be made public as part of PERM.
Actually, you're wrong according to: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O... for "H1-B Dependent Employers"
"Such employers must take good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for any job for which they seek H-1B workers."
"Such employers must take good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for any job for which they seek H-1B workers."
From your own link:
> Either external or internal to the employer’s workforce; or
So no, no public posting is required. It could all be internal recruiting and still pass the bar for H1-B. "Good faith" is also a very broad definition so it wouldn't surprise me that a very minimum amount of work is considered within the scope of that.
> Either external or internal to the employer’s workforce; or
So no, no public posting is required. It could all be internal recruiting and still pass the bar for H1-B. "Good faith" is also a very broad definition so it wouldn't surprise me that a very minimum amount of work is considered within the scope of that.
Local paper postings or physical job boards may be enough to qualify for good faith efforts, especially if there's legal precedence defining just how much effort they have to expend.
My understanding is that often the "public" job postings are posted to places where no qualified American tech worker would look, like newspaper classified sections.
That wouldn't work.
I'm sure these companies would be more than happy to hire an American who responds to their job request if that American was willing to work for 50k.
I'm sure these companies would be more than happy to hire an American who responds to their job request if that American was willing to work for 50k.
Wrong. The applicant company has to prove that the salary they are offering is at/above industry standard. (Let's not debate whether they actually do that - and what they might do to skirt that... that's the point I was originally making: we should submit formal complaints about those things... or, to wit: "you don't have a right to complain about something if you don't try to fix it.")
Are there not regions of the US where a $50k tech job for, say, a 30 year old programmer is a good salary?
Maybe the crooked law firms who facilitate everything deserve some scrutiny here too.
Case in point: How to post fake job ads to shirk the visa rules, courtesy of Cohen & Grigsby. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
Case in point: How to post fake job ads to shirk the visa rules, courtesy of Cohen & Grigsby. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
Probably because the large ones can follow the letter of the law. The smaller shops are probably the ones which are rally sloppy with their work. Just turning in paperwork has worked in the past and so they feel it will work again -- just procedural but sloppy, is my guess.
I guess if people are really bothered by a few unscrupulous employers abusing the system, there is nothing preventing someone from building an app to shame or report the employers to authorities who could fine these places. Maybe cut a deal to get a slice of the fine for every good lead. Gamify it so those who produce credible leads are weighted over those who want to cry wolf or are on a vendetta, etc.
I guess if people are really bothered by a few unscrupulous employers abusing the system, there is nothing preventing someone from building an app to shame or report the employers to authorities who could fine these places. Maybe cut a deal to get a slice of the fine for every good lead. Gamify it so those who produce credible leads are weighted over those who want to cry wolf or are on a vendetta, etc.
Well, this list is "willful violators". I'm pretty sure the body shops that "abuse" the system are well within the letter of the law. I don't approve of what they do, but if it's legal then it's legal. Blame the politicians, blame the government. If you don't like it, change the law, change the system. As long as it's legal and a profitable business they will keep on doing what they're doing.
It's not sad it represents the political reality of employment in the US. It basically shows that these people don't spent any or enough money lobbying the government and is a wake up call for them to become more politically involved.
Mmmh, not being familiar with US immigration laws, I'm not sure I get everything. Is this about companies who illegally "import" foreign workers when they could have recruited US citizens ?
I think if you use H-1B for your company you should be denied from using any tax breaks when filing US taxes.
The US is a nation of immigrants. As it stands now, H1-B is one of the few paths for technically-educated people to get lawful work and eventual permanent residence and citizenship in the US.
I don't think there's anything wrong with sponsoring an H1-B for a talented and qualified person who wants to live in the US. There's room, and there are jobs, and complaining about immigrants is just stupid.
That said, the H1-B gives companies way too much leverage over their workers. In a "restructuring" of my former employer (aka entering the drain-spiral) , the NYC office was closed and most people were offered the "opportunity" to relocate to Sacramento, or take severance. Not a single person relocated.... except the lone H1-B, who had a new baby and didn't feel like he had any choice because he could lose his visa otherwise. That kind of coercive force is a sign of a broken power dynamic, due to a broken law.
I don't think there's anything wrong with sponsoring an H1-B for a talented and qualified person who wants to live in the US. There's room, and there are jobs, and complaining about immigrants is just stupid.
That said, the H1-B gives companies way too much leverage over their workers. In a "restructuring" of my former employer (aka entering the drain-spiral) , the NYC office was closed and most people were offered the "opportunity" to relocate to Sacramento, or take severance. Not a single person relocated.... except the lone H1-B, who had a new baby and didn't feel like he had any choice because he could lose his visa otherwise. That kind of coercive force is a sign of a broken power dynamic, due to a broken law.
An H1-B is not a path to permanent residence. Having an H1-B does not help in any way with getting a green card. If you apply through employment the sponsoring company does not get any fee reduction, the application is not processed any faster. This is a completely independent petition.
The only way you could say an H1B is a path to immigration is for the case where a non-immigrant meets a spouse and get a green card through marriage. That's what happened to me, but this is really just by accident. Someone under a student visa could experience the same outcome for example.
You sait it yourself, the power of companies over H1Bs is overwhelming. Upon termination, an H1B has to leave the country in the following 24 hours, there is no "grace period" even though it's a widespread myth.
The only way you could say an H1B is a path to immigration is for the case where a non-immigrant meets a spouse and get a green card through marriage. That's what happened to me, but this is really just by accident. Someone under a student visa could experience the same outcome for example.
You sait it yourself, the power of companies over H1Bs is overwhelming. Upon termination, an H1B has to leave the country in the following 24 hours, there is no "grace period" even though it's a widespread myth.
It's not a path in the most pedantic term, but if I were born in China or India, the usual path is
1. do masters in the US
2. work on OPT until I am fortunate enough to be picked in H1B lottery, or until my OPT runs out, whichever comes first
3. IF I get picked in H1B lottery, apply for PR
4. wait 4-8 years for my category to be current
5. eventually get PR
short of an investor visa, marrying someone who is a citizen, qualifying for EB1, or applying from abroad and waiting 10 years, how else do I get a green card?
1. do masters in the US
2. work on OPT until I am fortunate enough to be picked in H1B lottery, or until my OPT runs out, whichever comes first
3. IF I get picked in H1B lottery, apply for PR
4. wait 4-8 years for my category to be current
5. eventually get PR
short of an investor visa, marrying someone who is a citizen, qualifying for EB1, or applying from abroad and waiting 10 years, how else do I get a green card?
More like 8-12 years, if you switch a job without getting a I-140 approved and 12+, if you switch jobs and GC process gets reset for each job change.
This isn't fully correct. For most Canadians, for example, the H1B is the stepping stone between the TN (a nonresident-only status) and EBX. You can certainly get an employment based visa on a TN, but the process is complicated, has many rules and restrictions, and is just a whole lot more simple with a H1B.
It's possible yes. But I think Canada is a special case considering all the special rules that exist between the US and Canada.
An H1B may be "simpler", but considering the lottery stats it's far from being a given. I surely am glad I got mine a while ago before the H1B program became so crazy, with the CAP being reached in literally hours.
An H1B may be "simpler", but considering the lottery stats it's far from being a given. I surely am glad I got mine a while ago before the H1B program became so crazy, with the CAP being reached in literally hours.
1 in 3 (last year) or 1 in 4 (this year) isn't too horrible when you have a few years to apply before they stop issuing TN(/OPT) extensions. That said, you could get crazy unlucky and not get it each time, in which case, that would really suck. You do have other avenues at that point at some companies, like going the L-1 route, but you'd still have to move.
Sorry, I misspoke. You are right about it not being a "path" to permanent residence in any legal sense, and I definitely agree that it's not a humane or fair type of visa.
OTOH, in my (limited) experience, I have worked closely with a total of 4 H1B employees, and at least 3 of them are now permanent residents or citizens. I can't speak to the overall frequency of this happening, but that's my anecdata.
OTOH, in my (limited) experience, I have worked closely with a total of 4 H1B employees, and at least 3 of them are now permanent residents or citizens. I can't speak to the overall frequency of this happening, but that's my anecdata.
I don't disagree that de facto it makes it easier to have a company sponsor you since they know who are a good worker. I just wanted to point out that in regards to the GC application it has no influence.
Do you happen to know if all your co-workers got their residency through employment ?
I only know one H1B who is attempting to get a GC through her company, she started the process 3 years ago and is not done yet.
Do you happen to know if all your co-workers got their residency through employment ?
I only know one H1B who is attempting to get a GC through her company, she started the process 3 years ago and is not done yet.
H-1B status itself doesn't lead to a green card, but it's much more difficult to get a company to go through the 1+ year process of sponsoring an immigrant worker petition (which does lead to a green card) if you're not able to work for them during that time.
I completely agree. As I said in another response, it is de facto easier to find a company willing to invest in the GC application if they know you're a good employee. But it doesn't not simplify/expedite the GC application at all.
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"US is a nation of immigrants"
The US is a nation full stop and we can write whatever laws we please without regard to when people arrived here in the first place.
Are Madagascar, Mauritius and Haiti also disallowed from having immigration restrictions because they were also populated in the Modern era?
The US is a nation full stop and we can write whatever laws we please without regard to when people arrived here in the first place.
Are Madagascar, Mauritius and Haiti also disallowed from having immigration restrictions because they were also populated in the Modern era?
>That said, the H1-B gives companies way too much leverage over their workers.
Which is why they need to be done away with. If we still want the talent (and why shouldn't we, brain fill is good), we need a way for them to enter which does not tie them to an employer.
Which is why they need to be done away with. If we still want the talent (and why shouldn't we, brain fill is good), we need a way for them to enter which does not tie them to an employer.
Well technically an employer can sponsor someone overseas directly for a green card. But that takes 2-3 years so even the best intentioned employer will bring them over on H1-B so that they can start working earlier.
I completely agree, but it's having your cake and eating it too. I'm in full support of H-1B, but you shouldn't be allowed cheaper labor and also not pay taxes. I'd like to see one or the other, pay taxes and have lower labor, or employee Americans and get tax breaks.
all visa holders pay all taxes. we even pay social security which we are not entitled to unless we become permanent residents.
To be perfectly honest, the majority of American residents/citizens that are currently paying social security likely won't receive any kind SS benefit.
Well that's politics. Just because the establishment intends to privatize Social Security doesn't mean it's fiscally nonviable.
Im talking about the companies employing them, not the employee.
nation of immigrants
Technically, most Americans were born in America.
Technically, most Americans were born in America.
that seems like a very general rule for something that might have greater subtlety than, "lower pay for an non-citizen employee." curious about your rational here.
Disney is not on the list?
My first thought too; where is Disney and/or TATA
maybe they don't directly employee the H1b holder instead going through a consulting shop.
As a former employee of Disney, I can confirm that this is correct. Disney IT goes through firms such as HCL and Cognizant who act as the H1-B sponsors. I'm aware of a very small number of examples where Disney sponsored H1-B visas directly, but those folks worked outside of IT and they did not displace any existing employees.
On a related note, the FBI recently uncovered a $20m H1B fraud operations http://www.computerworld.com/article/3064712/h1b/us-uncovers...
An obvious solution to this I've heard of before is to make the minimum salary for H-1B workers to be very high. Over six figures. If the talent is really so rare and difficult that you can't get it in the US, surely that talent is worth spending more money on. Any reason this would be unfair?
This has been discussed ad infinitum
eg:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11188243
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11224910
eg:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11188243
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11224910
Yes, because that minimum would be lobbied and lobbied to be eroded away. It's a lever for the government to pull at their whim, much like they are doing with the H-1B end run program, OPT.
I don't see it as unfair; I'd almost assert that to stay within compliance of the process the applying company must show proof that one or more US Citizens were offered the job and are willing to attest that the salary is market competitive. Essentially I don't think the program is very well policed / regulated.
Why not "auction" them? Ie, allocate them to the positions companies are willing to pay the most for in descending order.
You'd have to require that the company keep that salary in place for some number of years to prevent abuse, but that seems reasonable enough.
You'd have to require that the company keep that salary in place for some number of years to prevent abuse, but that seems reasonable enough.
How far down does "descending" go? It'd be a race to the bottom.
Or at least apply the same limits as other forms of immigration
It's called a tariff. They're an incredibly blunt tool and they're generally not a good way to make anything "fair".
Also the rarity of a skill does not necessarily correlate to its economic output. So you would reduce the supply of workers for an arbitrary number of industries where wages are not higher than that number you just pulled out of a hat.
Also the rarity of a skill does not necessarily correlate to its economic output. So you would reduce the supply of workers for an arbitrary number of industries where wages are not higher than that number you just pulled out of a hat.
I didn't see Tata, Infosys, Disney, or Edison Electric anywhere on that list. Did I miss something?
Yeah, you missed that rich and powerful are not really required to face consequences of their actions.
We'll see. Two of the victims from Disney's fiasco last year just filled a law suit -
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-disney-h1b-visa-l...
Hopefully the outcome from this lawsuit will hurt more then a flick on the nose...
Hopefully the outcome from this lawsuit will hurt more then a flick on the nose...
There are many Indian consulting/vendor shops out there that flout many H1B rules. 1. They take H1B filing fee from employee. 2. They keep you on bench. if you have no job, the consulting firm will run a dummy payroll for you to maintain legal visa status and you have to pay back payroll taxes to them to make up for their loss. 3. Most of the time they will not have a job before hand as required by H1B programme. They will hire some one, keep them on payroll(point 2 above) and then start the search for a contractor work from their clients.
There is lot of fraud going on there. I would say about 50% of H1B visas go to these scams. Ask any Indians working on big companies and they can explain you the bigger picture. Its pathetic that DHS/USCIS are unaware of these widespread scams.
There is lot of fraud going on there. I would say about 50% of H1B visas go to these scams. Ask any Indians working on big companies and they can explain you the bigger picture. Its pathetic that DHS/USCIS are unaware of these widespread scams.
Here is the big picture.
Path 1 - worker outside US.
Path 1 - worker outside US.
1. Worker outside US gets in touch with body shops in US.
2. The body shops forces the worker to fake their work experience, take money and apply H1B.
3. If it gets thru lottery,the worker lands in US.
4. The body shop provides cheap accommodation for the worker.
5. The body shop runs fake payrolls.
6. The workers finds a contract job by faking skills and doing proxy interviews, lip syncs on video interview calls.
7. Gets the contract job.
8. Gets fired when the employer realises that the worker is fake.
9. Goto step 5.
10. In parallel , the body shop will start GC process and the fake worker becomes Green Card holder and finally a citizen.
1. Many students comes to US to do master's degree after their bachelors.
(especially people from a particular state from India,I do not want to mention the state)
2. Finishes masters ( 2 years ). Gets an OPT work permit for 2 years.
3. The body shops recruit these students with nil experience.
4. Fake up their work experience to say 5 - 6 years.
5. Runs fake payroll when they are job hunting.
6. Send these students to work as a contractor and applies H1B for them. Since they have an MS degree , the odds are high for them to get selected in the lottery.
7. These fake workers outsource their office job to India at night and get it done from an experienced worker for a small amount.
8. At some point , the employer understands the worker is fake,fires the contractor.
9. Goto step 5.
10. In parallel,the body shop will apply for GC in EB2 category and the fake workers becomes a Green card holder within 7 years and eventually a citizen.A lot of consultancy firms abuse this system, BUT: not all H1Bs are "cheap labor". If you are not American and want to work in a tech company in the US, you don't have much choice: 99% of the time, you have to get an H-1B.
I once got a position in a very interesting startup in Palo Alto (with a salary significantly above average in the region), and the company was thrilled to have me join them (because there really is a shortage of candidates in my field)... until we learned that I didn't get my H-1B.
It's a lottery, the most stupid way to pick who gets to enter you country. American tech companies are so frustrated with this system that they often build offices in Europe just to be able to recruit local talent. Many companies moved to Canada because the immigration law is more flexible there.
It baffles me that some people believe most non-American employees are just "cheap labor". There are smart people on the other side of the pond as well!
I once got a position in a very interesting startup in Palo Alto (with a salary significantly above average in the region), and the company was thrilled to have me join them (because there really is a shortage of candidates in my field)... until we learned that I didn't get my H-1B.
It's a lottery, the most stupid way to pick who gets to enter you country. American tech companies are so frustrated with this system that they often build offices in Europe just to be able to recruit local talent. Many companies moved to Canada because the immigration law is more flexible there.
It baffles me that some people believe most non-American employees are just "cheap labor". There are smart people on the other side of the pond as well!
As an H-1B worker in Palo Alto (who also had to struggle through the ridiculous immigration process for almost two years), I'm being treated extremely well by my employer. They went out of their way to get me through the long-winded and expensive H-1B application process. I get compensated well, and I'm treated as any other valued employee.
While I recognize that a lot of ambitious and driven engineers from abroad have a similar experience to mine in the Bay Area, I'm also not blind to the fact that our situation is simply not representative of the typical H-1B worker.
The incentive structures surrounding the immigration process are not set up to effectively prevent abuse and exploitation of cheap labor. "Importing" desperate and often undereducated workers is cost-effective enough to happen at a fairly uncomfortable scale, to the detriment of the workers themselves and the industry as a whole.
Immigration is obviously complex for a whole host of reasons, and there's a lot of countries that struggle with (or outright abuse) that process. Of course, H-1B engineers in the U.S. are nowhere near as mistreated as migrant workers in many other nations — including wealthy ones — but it's still a commonly exploited system here. Those of us who have a relatively dignified experience in this mess are not near the middle of the curve.
I'm not familiar enough to know which nations get it "right", if any, but there certainly are lessons to be learned by looking elsewhere.
While I recognize that a lot of ambitious and driven engineers from abroad have a similar experience to mine in the Bay Area, I'm also not blind to the fact that our situation is simply not representative of the typical H-1B worker.
The incentive structures surrounding the immigration process are not set up to effectively prevent abuse and exploitation of cheap labor. "Importing" desperate and often undereducated workers is cost-effective enough to happen at a fairly uncomfortable scale, to the detriment of the workers themselves and the industry as a whole.
Immigration is obviously complex for a whole host of reasons, and there's a lot of countries that struggle with (or outright abuse) that process. Of course, H-1B engineers in the U.S. are nowhere near as mistreated as migrant workers in many other nations — including wealthy ones — but it's still a commonly exploited system here. Those of us who have a relatively dignified experience in this mess are not near the middle of the curve.
I'm not familiar enough to know which nations get it "right", if any, but there certainly are lessons to be learned by looking elsewhere.
>It baffles me that some people believe most non-American employees are just "cheap labor".
It is not a "belief" because they are cheaper. Everytime this topic comes up, a bunch of Ph.D's are shocked, SHOCKED! to learn that there are companies abusing the system and to learn that Infosys, Wipro and Tata are the leading H1-B Sponsors with an average salary of ~$73,000
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
It is not a "belief" because they are cheaper. Everytime this topic comes up, a bunch of Ph.D's are shocked, SHOCKED! to learn that there are companies abusing the system and to learn that Infosys, Wipro and Tata are the leading H1-B Sponsors with an average salary of ~$73,000
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx
Most of the abusers of H-1B are such body shops and consultants. A simple solution is to disallow consultants from sponsoring H-1B. Only the direct employer should be able to sponsor H-1B.
One of my friend was recruited by Tata in India, and then sent to work for Citibank in US. His visa was sponsored by Tata, he gets his paycheck from Tata ($72,000), but he works for Citibank in their office. Citibank pays Tata more than the market salary, and Tata's business model is arbitrage. Citibank could directly hire him at market salary and cut off the middle men.
They are not just abusing H-1B, but L1 visa too.
One of my friend was recruited by Tata in India, and then sent to work for Citibank in US. His visa was sponsored by Tata, he gets his paycheck from Tata ($72,000), but he works for Citibank in their office. Citibank pays Tata more than the market salary, and Tata's business model is arbitrage. Citibank could directly hire him at market salary and cut off the middle men.
They are not just abusing H-1B, but L1 visa too.
I have worked at one of the above mentioned companies and I have seen that A LOT of people would be interested in getting to work here at ~73000, which might be lesser than average but works fine for them.
Also, they probably have several other considerations in this matter: - Get the work experience of working in a different country at a client location that means more responsibility, more learning, etc. - Get the option to travel and explore another country, and the job salary covers for the expenses.
Now, usually, the role and responsibilities are that of a technical or functional consultant. But they are not an individual employed directly by the US company. Their employer, one of the above mentioned companies or one of the several ones out there, is contracted.
Note that I haven't worked here in US at any company while being an employee of a consultancy.
I believe that the US based company where the individual works might be charged at a higher hourly rate but only a certain percentage of it makes to the employee and thus they may have lesser salaries. I would love to have this belief clarified, if anyone has any input.
All that being said, I agree that the abuse of H1-B sucks. Though it is all too common outside the bay area. Haven't come across any instances here yet.
Also, they probably have several other considerations in this matter: - Get the work experience of working in a different country at a client location that means more responsibility, more learning, etc. - Get the option to travel and explore another country, and the job salary covers for the expenses.
Now, usually, the role and responsibilities are that of a technical or functional consultant. But they are not an individual employed directly by the US company. Their employer, one of the above mentioned companies or one of the several ones out there, is contracted.
Note that I haven't worked here in US at any company while being an employee of a consultancy.
I believe that the US based company where the individual works might be charged at a higher hourly rate but only a certain percentage of it makes to the employee and thus they may have lesser salaries. I would love to have this belief clarified, if anyone has any input.
All that being said, I agree that the abuse of H1-B sucks. Though it is all too common outside the bay area. Haven't come across any instances here yet.
Hah! Abuse of the H-1B program is endemic across the United States--not just in the Bay Area. No large city is excluded.
Even $73,000 is high end if you include all outsourcing firms. Here's some writeup I did which compared silicon valley tech firms v/s outsourcing firms: http://ashwinikhare.in/tech-firms-guest-visa/
I think the just part is important.
The way to fix this and to make sure that the H1-B is used for its intended purpose (to bring in extraordinary talent that is not present in the US) and not just for cheap labor, is instead of a lottery, to give it based on salary. The position that offers the highest salary gets an H1-B visa, then the next highest and so on until the quota of H1-B visas is used up.
How much a company is willing to pay is probably the best indication of the supply and demand for the talent.
How much a company is willing to pay is probably the best indication of the supply and demand for the talent.
No, the Visa you are referring to is the O-1 Visa, it is much more difficult and expensive to obtain, but it is not subject to Visa CAP (I know it well, I'm on O-1). H-1B is for specialty worker, and they are not defined by exceptionality but by the fact that they possess a qualification for a specific job, there's a shortage of US Citizen for that job, and they receive market rate salary.
We could agree that the behavior of consulting companies like Tata or Infosys seems like cheating (basically, send thousands of application hoping that a good percentage succeed). But they are hiring for positions that require a degree people qualified; it is difficult to hire for that kind of position (primarily because you could make more money with the same qualification in different companies); and they are paying market rate salaries (or at least, that's what it is certified!).
I could agree that the current H-1B Visa system is broken, but I'm not sure that fixing it just for the perspective of highly paid Silicon Valley Bro is the best solution for the US as a whole. What I'm saying is: are we sure that this kind of cheap specialty labor is not useful for the US society as a whole? E.g.: are we sure that, if System Integration companies have to pay engineers a much higher salary, they will be able to provide prices low enough for other company to pay it? And if few companies could pay for their services, this wouldn't impact their efficiency on one side and the B2B software market on the other side?
I'm not defending the violators nor supporting the "cheap H1B" practices. Just saying that the world is a little bit more complex than that.
We could agree that the behavior of consulting companies like Tata or Infosys seems like cheating (basically, send thousands of application hoping that a good percentage succeed). But they are hiring for positions that require a degree people qualified; it is difficult to hire for that kind of position (primarily because you could make more money with the same qualification in different companies); and they are paying market rate salaries (or at least, that's what it is certified!).
I could agree that the current H-1B Visa system is broken, but I'm not sure that fixing it just for the perspective of highly paid Silicon Valley Bro is the best solution for the US as a whole. What I'm saying is: are we sure that this kind of cheap specialty labor is not useful for the US society as a whole? E.g.: are we sure that, if System Integration companies have to pay engineers a much higher salary, they will be able to provide prices low enough for other company to pay it? And if few companies could pay for their services, this wouldn't impact their efficiency on one side and the B2B software market on the other side?
I'm not defending the violators nor supporting the "cheap H1B" practices. Just saying that the world is a little bit more complex than that.
>there's a shortage of US Citizen for that job, and they receive market rate salary
That's not quite right. If you can't hire somebody at salary $X, then $X is not the market rate for someone in that position. The language I've heard is "prevailing wage", which can be less than the "market rate" if workers aren't making full use of their bargaining power.
That's not quite right. If you can't hire somebody at salary $X, then $X is not the market rate for someone in that position. The language I've heard is "prevailing wage", which can be less than the "market rate" if workers aren't making full use of their bargaining power.
This doesn't make sense to me, CS skills aren't a big fungible set that allow people to move around freely. I have a particular set of skills that I've honed over several years. These skills make me valuable at my specific job, but completely unemployable as a databases person, or an SRE, or a distributed systems specialist. It doesn't matter how much money they offer, they can't hire me because I don't have the skills. It's perfectly possible for subsets of the market to grow demand faster than the population responds by training for these skills (say by new targeted degree programs in school).
You're left with the choice of offering other native employees a pay bump to do something they don't have the skills for or want to do, or bring in foreign talent that is trained and interested, this is not a hard call at all. The problem is that "STEM" is a ridiculously broad classification to try and capture this need, clearly not all science/tech jobs are spiking in demand. At the same time, it's probably a bad idea to have the government specify sub-quotas within, say, software engineering. Government intervention like this, letting bureaucrats make arbitrary decisions on things they don't have expertise about is how you get bad rules.
You're left with the choice of offering other native employees a pay bump to do something they don't have the skills for or want to do, or bring in foreign talent that is trained and interested, this is not a hard call at all. The problem is that "STEM" is a ridiculously broad classification to try and capture this need, clearly not all science/tech jobs are spiking in demand. At the same time, it's probably a bad idea to have the government specify sub-quotas within, say, software engineering. Government intervention like this, letting bureaucrats make arbitrary decisions on things they don't have expertise about is how you get bad rules.
> E.g.: are we sure that, if System Integration companies have to pay engineers a much higher salary, they will be able to provide prices low enough for other company to pay it?
If you can't sustain your business without illegal (or in this case legal, but certainly exploiting loopholes which shouldn't exist) hiring/salary practices then why should your business be allowed to exist. This type of thing only hurts workers.
If you can't sustain your business without illegal (or in this case legal, but certainly exploiting loopholes which shouldn't exist) hiring/salary practices then why should your business be allowed to exist. This type of thing only hurts workers.
I could contend that the shortage of engineers qualified for that job is due to scarcity created by the US immigration policies. And then I'll ask you if you can't have your super high salary without exploiting the current system, your salary shouldn't exist.
Again, I'm not saying what they are doing is right or ethical or desirable. Just challenging the different point of views.
Again, I'm not saying what they are doing is right or ethical or desirable. Just challenging the different point of views.
Who sets the quota? And how do we ensure the quota isn't lobbied to be resized to the point where it allows cheap labor?
Peg the minimum to some sort of standardized wage / poverty / CoL metric. Salaries being paid to H1-Bs rise overly much, quota increases. Salaries fall, quota shrinks.
It's not overly hard to design a compensation-based system that guarantees use for only extraordinary talent, because the current abuse is solely because low salaries are still possible.
It's not overly hard to design a compensation-based system that guarantees use for only extraordinary talent, because the current abuse is solely because low salaries are still possible.
what is going to prevent even further off shoring then? Software development, support, and even project management, are all easy candidates for off shoring and with ever improving conferencing tools, change management, and similar, its bound that there will be more competition.
So either the cost come down because they live and work here or the costs drop faster as the work simply goes off shore.
Far too many in the tech industry are first to jump at competition in their areas of expertise but mock those concerned about workers similar to those at Carrier whose jobs are moving to Mexico as either progress or being non competitive
So either the cost come down because they live and work here or the costs drop faster as the work simply goes off shore.
Far too many in the tech industry are first to jump at competition in their areas of expertise but mock those concerned about workers similar to those at Carrier whose jobs are moving to Mexico as either progress or being non competitive
The terrible experiences that companies are having at offshoring? I mean, there's a reason why they're bringing in the H1Bs, or paying Tata, Infosys, et al for those consultants instead of doing the offshoring in the first place.
The quota is set by Congress. It was 65K for many years, but I hear during the bubble it was temporarily increased.
Sounds like a 'magic number' to me. What's it based on?
It's Congress's work, so it's likely a compromise between parties.
Which means it's entirely a number pulled out of someone's ass rather than anything related to reality.
http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
A number that sounds good. There isn't much in the way of reasoning behind it.
65K open to everyone and 20K for those who possess US masters degree or higher.
> to bring in extraordinary talent that is not present in the US
I don't think that is the standard.
I don't think that is the standard.
> It's a lottery, the most stupid way to pick who gets to enter you country.
Instead of a random lottery, rank the applications by salary (decreasing order) and take the top N. Everyone wins: company has to pay more, it ensures that the visas go to really hard-to-fill jobs, and workers get more.
Instead of a random lottery, rank the applications by salary (decreasing order) and take the top N. Everyone wins: company has to pay more, it ensures that the visas go to really hard-to-fill jobs, and workers get more.
Alternately, remove the need for highly skilled workers to get visas entirely, thereby completely preventing companies from abusing the system.
Well, Infosys, Wipro and Tata would lose in that scheme. Whether they ought to win or not isn't a matter of debate here, but it is important to a lot of people.
Tens of thousands of foreign students come to US every year for education, majority of them are among the top of talent pool. They have to be top performers in their country to be able to get university admission and visa to come to US.
After they graduate, if they want to stay and work in US; their only option is H-1B. Even they are subjected to the stupid lottery system.
After they graduate, if they want to stay and work in US; their only option is H-1B. Even they are subjected to the stupid lottery system.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us/lawsuit-claims-disney-c...
Disney laid off their Disneyland I.T. staff and forced them to train immigrants beforehand. Stories like this is what unnerves so many people and causes the backlash. Ignore it at your peril. Before this I would have agreed with you. After...
A company ought to be able to choose who they employ. What makes Americans more deserving of an I.T. job than a team in India?
You're not thinking like a global citizen.
You're not thinking like a global citizen.
A company may choose who they want to employ selecting from the pool of the citizens and legal residents of the country. Works like this everywhere in the world, why should the US be different?
If we want to go global, then:
- All kinds of jobs should be open to imports, not just software (let's start with importing a few CEOs from India/China, judging by the outsized salaries, there apparently is a severe shortage of CEOs)
- Let's open up all countries to everyone. Most countries' labor markets are not easily accessible to foreigners.
If we want to go global, then:
- All kinds of jobs should be open to imports, not just software (let's start with importing a few CEOs from India/China, judging by the outsized salaries, there apparently is a severe shortage of CEOs)
- Let's open up all countries to everyone. Most countries' labor markets are not easily accessible to foreigners.
"You're not thinking like a global citizen."
No. Because I'm not a global citizen. I'm a citizen of the US. And it is much more in my interest that my countrymen have good jobs, than someone halfway around the world.
No. Because I'm not a global citizen. I'm a citizen of the US. And it is much more in my interest that my countrymen have good jobs, than someone halfway around the world.
If the company is hiring someone on-site in America, they should not be able to just circumvent local labor markets thanks to visa loopholes that were put in place by their crooked crony politicians.
That American company succeeded in part because of the infrastructure, security, and society that has been set up and paid for by American tax dollars.
Why should anyone support a system that lets companies take all the tax payer funded benefits of being based in America, yet gives nothing back in return (much like the current tax code)? If the employee is living in America, these companies should not be allowed to abuse the visa system.
That American company succeeded in part because of the infrastructure, security, and society that has been set up and paid for by American tax dollars.
Why should anyone support a system that lets companies take all the tax payer funded benefits of being based in America, yet gives nothing back in return (much like the current tax code)? If the employee is living in America, these companies should not be allowed to abuse the visa system.
It's especially bad when a lot of the reason for lotteries every year is shitty consulting companies flooding applications. Then they use the H-1B workers they get to help them displace American workers.
Meanwhile people who are just trying to legitimately immigrate to the US and join the workforce without really displacing anyone get to hear about how they are shitty underpaid foreigners who are hurting America with their H-1B visas.
:/
Meanwhile people who are just trying to legitimately immigrate to the US and join the workforce without really displacing anyone get to hear about how they are shitty underpaid foreigners who are hurting America with their H-1B visas.
:/
Former H-B myself. I was actually the most expensive member on the team. All 3 devs had the same base salary and bonus structure but they had to cover immigration lawyer fees for me on top of everything else.
In general, Americans' view on immigration is extremely skewed. Most people I've spoken to are surprised I'm not a citizen and are even more baffled to learn how little sympathy I have for illegal immigrants, since to them, all immigrants are "illegal", there must be no other way to get into this country!
Few know what a Green Card is, or what an H1B is, or what other pathways there are for living here - they just assume that I must already be American, since all immigrants are poor abused people from south of the border, and I don't look the part.
In general, Americans' view on immigration is extremely skewed. Most people I've spoken to are surprised I'm not a citizen and are even more baffled to learn how little sympathy I have for illegal immigrants, since to them, all immigrants are "illegal", there must be no other way to get into this country!
Few know what a Green Card is, or what an H1B is, or what other pathways there are for living here - they just assume that I must already be American, since all immigrants are poor abused people from south of the border, and I don't look the part.
>99% of the time, you have to get an H-1B.
Not if you are a citizen of:
Canada : TN
Singapore, Chile : H1-B1
Australia : E-3
Thanks to trade agreements
Not if you are a citizen of:
Canada : TN
Singapore, Chile : H1-B1
Australia : E-3
Thanks to trade agreements
I wish Europe had a trade agreement with the US like this :(
Not all H1-B's are cheap labor, but the plurality are. We all know how to fix the system (auction the visas by salary), but the abusers block the political will, as does the fact that Congress believes in cheap labor as a principle.
There's a trivial fix to the whole system: free the employees. As long as employees are completely tied to their employer wages will be lower. What else do you expect?
Forcing employers to pay a higher salary is a half-measure. I imagine they'd still prefer H1B's over locals for one simple reasons: you hire a H1B employee and they're gonna stick around for a few years. Even if the job sucks. It's worth to pay a bit more and significantly reduce turnover.
I'd love to see actual turnover stats of H1B employees versus American employees. I think it's a huge driving factor in hiring decisions, especially at giants like Facebook or Google.
Forcing employers to pay a higher salary is a half-measure. I imagine they'd still prefer H1B's over locals for one simple reasons: you hire a H1B employee and they're gonna stick around for a few years. Even if the job sucks. It's worth to pay a bit more and significantly reduce turnover.
I'd love to see actual turnover stats of H1B employees versus American employees. I think it's a huge driving factor in hiring decisions, especially at giants like Facebook or Google.
> you hire a H1B employee and they're gonna stick around for a few years. Even if the job sucks.
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? H1b's are free to change jobs. There is nothing that prevents them from doing so.
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? H1b's are free to change jobs. There is nothing that prevents them from doing so.
Green card process prevents it. I changed jobs 3 times on H1B and my green card process reset every time. It's been 7 years and I am still waiting for green card, but if I just stayed with my first employer then I'd already have it years ago. Most ppl stick around to get green card and I've seen employers taking advantage of this.
People exaggerate this in both directions. Some people do say, inaccurately, that H1B holders are unable to change jobs. Others say that nothing prevents them from doing so. Both are inaccurate, though the also both contain some truth.
H1B holders have some limited job mobility. They typically must find a new corporate sponsor, and if they are also being sponsored for a green card, they will typically need to ensure that the new employer will also assume sponsorship. If they are hoping to get that green card, they would be wise to stick with stable employers. Although it used to be the case that an H1B holder would restart the waiting process with a new green card sponsor, that is no longer the case, so at least that is a mild improvement.
The types of jobs an H1B can move to are also restricted. They can pretty much be an engineer/developer here, there, or even over there, but that's about it. Changing fields, dropping out to be a consultant, starting your own business (whether it's a tech company or a sandwich shop) is pretty much out of the question.
The mobility that does exist helps, but overall, I think the restrictions are severe enough that H1Bs really can't be considered free and full participants in a labor market.
The more cynical side of me sees this as entirely deliberate. A RAND study found that the American aversion to STEM graduate degrees is rational and market-driven. I feel that while dev jobs are ok, there's a lot to dislike about them - open offices, back visibility, scrum meetings that limit autonomy and are misused to apply deadline pressure, often soulless and unfulfilling work. I do think that people who are capable of becoming developers are also capable of finding work they prefer outside the field - provided they are free to do so.
Part of the appeal of the H1B is that it creates a population of workers who are, well, not free to do so. Corporations talk about things like "at will employment", but they'll absolutely lobby government to undermine freedom if freedom doesn't suit them.
H1B holders have some limited job mobility. They typically must find a new corporate sponsor, and if they are also being sponsored for a green card, they will typically need to ensure that the new employer will also assume sponsorship. If they are hoping to get that green card, they would be wise to stick with stable employers. Although it used to be the case that an H1B holder would restart the waiting process with a new green card sponsor, that is no longer the case, so at least that is a mild improvement.
The types of jobs an H1B can move to are also restricted. They can pretty much be an engineer/developer here, there, or even over there, but that's about it. Changing fields, dropping out to be a consultant, starting your own business (whether it's a tech company or a sandwich shop) is pretty much out of the question.
The mobility that does exist helps, but overall, I think the restrictions are severe enough that H1Bs really can't be considered free and full participants in a labor market.
The more cynical side of me sees this as entirely deliberate. A RAND study found that the American aversion to STEM graduate degrees is rational and market-driven. I feel that while dev jobs are ok, there's a lot to dislike about them - open offices, back visibility, scrum meetings that limit autonomy and are misused to apply deadline pressure, often soulless and unfulfilling work. I do think that people who are capable of becoming developers are also capable of finding work they prefer outside the field - provided they are free to do so.
Part of the appeal of the H1B is that it creates a population of workers who are, well, not free to do so. Corporations talk about things like "at will employment", but they'll absolutely lobby government to undermine freedom if freedom doesn't suit them.
Thanks for listing it out. It's a shame that people in this dilemma tend towards hyperbole, even going to the extent of calling it slavery.
There are hurdles no doubt, but life is unfair. Deal with it.
There are hurdles no doubt, but life is unfair. Deal with it.
On a personal level, it is very important to deal with the unfairness in live, because as you've pointed out, unfairness is inevitable.
However, "life isn't fair" isn't a good mantra for forming public policy, either. One way to deal with unfairness is to fight against it rather than just accepting it.
However, "life isn't fair" isn't a good mantra for forming public policy, either. One way to deal with unfairness is to fight against it rather than just accepting it.
Sure, but what fight are we talking about? We can't vote and we have zero influence.
The general sentiment on immigration is negative and has been negative since the recession of 2008. The US Congress can't even pass a budget, good luck in passing immigration reform. Sometimes it's important to accept ground realities and making the best of what you have, rather than having an idealistic pipe dream.
The general sentiment on immigration is negative and has been negative since the recession of 2008. The US Congress can't even pass a budget, good luck in passing immigration reform. Sometimes it's important to accept ground realities and making the best of what you have, rather than having an idealistic pipe dream.
I had to give in writing to my employer that If I get a promotion which changes my job role more than 50%, my entire process will be reset. So in EB2 the wait time is 7 years. I would have to wait 14 years if a get a promotion or a good raise even. If I change my employer & if I am lucky I can keep my position in the queue. Going by these draconian rules I will never settle at 60 !.I don't believe in luck,but hardwork. US H1B is based on pure luck and not in skills. Canada immigration system is point based and evaluates your skills not your luck. So goodbye US and hello Canada is my course of action.
They are "free" to change jobs in the way that one is "free" to disparage a judge during their trial. The fact that there are many, many hurdles to doing this, not the least is finding a company that is willing to pick up sponsorship of that visa, makes that "free", not really free.
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>There's a trivial fix to the whole system: free the employees. As long as employees are completely tied to their employer wages will be lower.
Why not both? And the answer is: because the abusers lobby to keep any of several available fixes from being implemented.
Why not both? And the answer is: because the abusers lobby to keep any of several available fixes from being implemented.
edit: food for thought: think about Google and Go. Go is by design simple easy and boring. That's step 1. Now you need hundreds of people to write Go. Step 2: hire H1Bs. You're bored of writing simple code in Go day in day out? Well, we pay you well so get over it and you can't leave anyway even if you wanted. Step 3: programmers as a commodity.
Not that this is a good excuse, but for some Americans, their primary contact with immigrants is news about those coming up from the southern border.
I learned a lot more about immigration law after starting at a bigger tech company where a lot of my colleagues are immigrants.
I learned a lot more about immigration law after starting at a bigger tech company where a lot of my colleagues are immigrants.
So, what did you do then? Working in Europe?
I was considering doing the H1B route, but decided to not to bother. Probably, will just go back to Europe and work there.
I was considering doing the H1B route, but decided to not to bother. Probably, will just go back to Europe and work there.
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I've a better list http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?98021-Companies-ruined-or...
The H1B visa requires a minimum pay as it is right now. However, what some companies do when they sponsor a foreign worker for H1B is to hire the person part time on paper and thus being able to pay a lower wage, but still in practice requiring him or her to work full time. This is an anecdote I heard but I know it occurs. For many people, having the chance to come to the U.S. is like winning the lottery, and they will not report their employer.
They do have a prevailing wage clause but if you look up labor filings by most tech companies the wages are on average MUCH lower than what Americans would expect. I just saw a software developer petition for a company in San Francisco for 79K.
Though it does not take RSUs into account, and in the SF/SV a huge chunk of the compensation tend to come in the form of RSUs.
This was for a small startup which is not public. Even with options, 79K is not prevailing wage in SF for a developer.
Something is wrong with this list.... Where's Facebook, Google, Disney, Microsoft, and all of the other major corporations that have systematically undermined and cheated the American workforce by importing cheap labor, and then laying off the fully qualified, educated, and trained Americans?
Don't know about Disney, but the tech companies pay exactly the same for hires at the same level regardless of where they are originally from.
H1B may have the benefit of being somewhat bonded labor for them, but its not cheap.
H1B may have the benefit of being somewhat bonded labor for them, but its not cheap.
It also, in aggregate, has the effect of lowering, or preventing increases in, wages in the larger labor market.
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If you deny this exists, you don't work in the tech sector. What is this then, if not companies trying to maximize profits by exploiting foreign born workers? It's just mind blowing we keep going over this again and again when the reality is clear as day. The only logical conclusion of importing large amounts of lower skilled workers with poor language skills is that they are cheaper.