Lab-Grown Diamonds Come into Their Own(npr.org)
npr.org
Lab-Grown Diamonds Come into Their Own
http://www.npr.org/2016/12/01/502330818/lab-grown-diamonds-come-into-their-own
109 comments
I've been running a lab-grown diamond company since 2005. I'd be happy to answer any questions in the morning.
How cheap can good quality diamond get?
If you're buying raw carbon in the form of coal, it costs about $40 per ton.
The rest is manufacturing details. I know there's a lot of manufacturing details, but the cost of the inputs suggests that diamonds in bulk could be much much cheaper.
If you're buying raw carbon in the form of coal, it costs about $40 per ton.
The rest is manufacturing details. I know there's a lot of manufacturing details, but the cost of the inputs suggests that diamonds in bulk could be much much cheaper.
If a large enough production facility (no R&D) had nearly every growth cycle yield large enough, colorless, flawless diamonds (or close to it), the retail prices could come down more than they currently are. However, that does not reflect the current reality and all producers today are basically in R&D mode with mixed success rates and mixed finished quality.
If someone showed up tomorrow with a check for several million dollars, I believe we could "disrupt" the current diamond pricing within 3-5 years. However, as I mentioned in another post in this thread, raw cost of production will still keep those "disrupted" non-R&D diamonds much more expensive than moissanite, CZs, sapphires and other gemstones.
Diamond is a form of carbon, and its growth is more-or-less determined by nature. The cost of production over time will be more similar to an industry like steel, than assembled goods like TVs or computers. There are improvements to be made, but they are more linear over time, than exponential breakthroughs.
For raw carbon, we use a highly refined and purified form of graphite. If you used the $40/ton coal, you would not be successful in growing jewelry-quality diamonds, and even if you did, the other costs wouldn't really change your ultimate price much.
Another analogy is gold. You can buy a 1 Troy-ounce bar of 24 karat gold for a bit over $1000. However, a solitaire engagement ring with much less actual gold content can cost more than $1000. People ask why the jewelry is more expensive, but don't include the cost for refining and alloys, design, 3D printing or molds, casting and investments, polishing, setting, shipping, ring boxes, and all the other overhead associated with turning that gold bar into a sold, ready-to-wear ring.
If someone showed up tomorrow with a check for several million dollars, I believe we could "disrupt" the current diamond pricing within 3-5 years. However, as I mentioned in another post in this thread, raw cost of production will still keep those "disrupted" non-R&D diamonds much more expensive than moissanite, CZs, sapphires and other gemstones.
Diamond is a form of carbon, and its growth is more-or-less determined by nature. The cost of production over time will be more similar to an industry like steel, than assembled goods like TVs or computers. There are improvements to be made, but they are more linear over time, than exponential breakthroughs.
For raw carbon, we use a highly refined and purified form of graphite. If you used the $40/ton coal, you would not be successful in growing jewelry-quality diamonds, and even if you did, the other costs wouldn't really change your ultimate price much.
Another analogy is gold. You can buy a 1 Troy-ounce bar of 24 karat gold for a bit over $1000. However, a solitaire engagement ring with much less actual gold content can cost more than $1000. People ask why the jewelry is more expensive, but don't include the cost for refining and alloys, design, 3D printing or molds, casting and investments, polishing, setting, shipping, ring boxes, and all the other overhead associated with turning that gold bar into a sold, ready-to-wear ring.
Do you only grow gemstones or do also for industrial applications? And in case of the latter, how hard is it to make monoisotopic diamonds? I've read they have about the best thermal conductivity of any solid.
Gemstone and high-value industrial. Industrial diamonds fit into a couple different levels. Low-grade diamonds are made spontaneously by the ton, mostly in China. They are generally small (<2mm) with poor color and clarity and are used in cutting tools, drill bits, etc. Mid-grade industrial diamonds are larger (3~6mm) seeded-crystals with good clarity, but color rarely matters, and are used in cutting tools and heat sinks. High-value industrial diamonds are usually higher quality than jewelry-grade diamonds (IF-VVS clarity, D-F color, low stress, etc.) and are used in applications like high pressure anvils and optics for lasers. A large portion of our current production ends up in the last category, as well as in jewelry.
We are currently focused on high-quality single-crystal diamonds. There are many potential research paths with diamond, but slow and limited research capacity and market potential. Element Six (a De Beers subsidiary) currently has the most potential for developing non-standard diamond applications.
We are currently focused on high-quality single-crystal diamonds. There are many potential research paths with diamond, but slow and limited research capacity and market potential. Element Six (a De Beers subsidiary) currently has the most potential for developing non-standard diamond applications.
Who makes the machines that grows diamonds?
For HPHT, there are three primary machine designs, but they all create intense heat and pressure, and dissolved graphite slowly builds up on a diamond seed (<1mm).
1. BARS press. It is a Russian design from the 1980s capable of up to 2-3 carat polished sizes, and was one of the first methods to commercially grow jewelry-grade diamonds. It is much less efficient than modern presses though.
2. Cubic press. This is a much larger 3-axis press used primarily in China to spontaneously grow diamond grit and powder. Some of these have been converted and upgraded to run longer cycles needed for large single crystals. These can grow multiple diamonds at a time or fewer larger diamonds, and have been used to grow the largest diamonds currently available (5-10 carat), however success rates and control within the larger growth cell are still low. We are in the process of developing our own modern cubic press (rather than a refurbished grit press).
3. Single axis. This our own in-house design. It has similar growth capabilities as a BARS press, but is much more efficient with greater control and can grow multiple diamonds simultaneously. For qualified parties, we can sell these presses as well as license the IP and diamond growth "recipes".
CVD reactors are basically a vacuum chamber with plasma over a growth surface. That surface holds diamond plates, which are just thin slices of diamond, and usually come from larger CVD or HPHT single-crystal diamonds. Methane provides a carbon source, which is broken up into its elemental components by the plasma. The carbon "rains" down onto the diamond seed plates and basically grows straight up, so the finished dimensions are limited by the starting length and width of the seed plate. Some CVD reactors use microwaves to assist while others do not. There are a few companies that sell complete CVD reactor systems, but no one I am aware of that offers IP or "recipes", so those would have to be developed on your own.
1. BARS press. It is a Russian design from the 1980s capable of up to 2-3 carat polished sizes, and was one of the first methods to commercially grow jewelry-grade diamonds. It is much less efficient than modern presses though.
2. Cubic press. This is a much larger 3-axis press used primarily in China to spontaneously grow diamond grit and powder. Some of these have been converted and upgraded to run longer cycles needed for large single crystals. These can grow multiple diamonds at a time or fewer larger diamonds, and have been used to grow the largest diamonds currently available (5-10 carat), however success rates and control within the larger growth cell are still low. We are in the process of developing our own modern cubic press (rather than a refurbished grit press).
3. Single axis. This our own in-house design. It has similar growth capabilities as a BARS press, but is much more efficient with greater control and can grow multiple diamonds simultaneously. For qualified parties, we can sell these presses as well as license the IP and diamond growth "recipes".
CVD reactors are basically a vacuum chamber with plasma over a growth surface. That surface holds diamond plates, which are just thin slices of diamond, and usually come from larger CVD or HPHT single-crystal diamonds. Methane provides a carbon source, which is broken up into its elemental components by the plasma. The carbon "rains" down onto the diamond seed plates and basically grows straight up, so the finished dimensions are limited by the starting length and width of the seed plate. Some CVD reactors use microwaves to assist while others do not. There are a few companies that sell complete CVD reactor systems, but no one I am aware of that offers IP or "recipes", so those would have to be developed on your own.
I guess a follow up question would be, if one wanted their own diamond making machine where would they get it. Obviously your company is an option "for qualified parties"
Yes, we can sell brand-new presses along with the IP and recipes, or can consider a JV, production contract or some similar arrangement.
Otherwise, for HPHT, you can find used BARS presses, mostly in Russia. They are certainly capable of growing diamonds, but are like comparing emissions, performance and fuel efficiency of a 1980s carbureted vehicle to a 2016 fuel-injected vehicle. Used cubic presses can be found in China, however those presses were built for grit and powder, which run short cycles (<1 hour), and would need to be converted and upgraded to sustain strict parameters for multi-day and multi-week cycles.
Companies sell new CVD reactors, as they have more applications than just diamonds, but they do not come with any diamond knowhow.
With all of those, you will have to develop your own recipes and growth cells or methods. Unless you have plenty of time and advanced degrees in physics, chemistry and/or material science, it will probably be an exercise in futility.
The original Florida-based Gemesis is a good example of this. They were VC funded and bought BARS presses, that at-the-time, could only grow orange diamonds. Gemesis made dozens if not hundreds of these presses however, when they ran out of money years later, they could still only grow orange diamonds. A Singapore company bought those presses (mostly to grow CVD seeds and HPHT-treat CVD rough) and to my knowledge, still can't reliably grow blue or colorless diamonds with those BARS presses.
For a code analogy, they basically "forked" the orange recipes when they bought the machines from Russia, and haven't been able to merge any upstream advancements since. BARS have basically been deprecated, so that stack is no longer developed.
Otherwise, for HPHT, you can find used BARS presses, mostly in Russia. They are certainly capable of growing diamonds, but are like comparing emissions, performance and fuel efficiency of a 1980s carbureted vehicle to a 2016 fuel-injected vehicle. Used cubic presses can be found in China, however those presses were built for grit and powder, which run short cycles (<1 hour), and would need to be converted and upgraded to sustain strict parameters for multi-day and multi-week cycles.
Companies sell new CVD reactors, as they have more applications than just diamonds, but they do not come with any diamond knowhow.
With all of those, you will have to develop your own recipes and growth cells or methods. Unless you have plenty of time and advanced degrees in physics, chemistry and/or material science, it will probably be an exercise in futility.
The original Florida-based Gemesis is a good example of this. They were VC funded and bought BARS presses, that at-the-time, could only grow orange diamonds. Gemesis made dozens if not hundreds of these presses however, when they ran out of money years later, they could still only grow orange diamonds. A Singapore company bought those presses (mostly to grow CVD seeds and HPHT-treat CVD rough) and to my knowledge, still can't reliably grow blue or colorless diamonds with those BARS presses.
For a code analogy, they basically "forked" the orange recipes when they bought the machines from Russia, and haven't been able to merge any upstream advancements since. BARS have basically been deprecated, so that stack is no longer developed.
What is the profit margin? It seems very large.
They are smaller than people think. Not counting the years of R&D, one average growth cycle for one white diamond actually costs more than what mining companies typically report for their cost-per-rough-carat dug from the ground. Mines use giant diesel earth moving and processing equipment, while we use scientists, electricity, and advanced machinery and alloys, but the variable cost-per-carat for rough diamonds are somewhat comparable.
From there, the cost for polishing, grading reports, jewelry, logistics, marketing, etc. are all basically the same whether the diamond was grown or mined. White grown diamonds are generally 10-30% less expensive at retail than mined diamonds, however most of that is just due to lean, vertically integrated companies. We grow, cut, distribute and retail our diamonds as well as jewelry, so have a bigger slice of the rough-to-retail pie. That extra margin isn't huge, but is enough to sustain the business as well as progress the research, development and production. Mined diamonds pass through many more hands between the mine and the consumer, and each step adds some markup. A mined diamond entity that only sells rough, only polishes, or only buys and sells polished mined diamonds at wholesale would see smaller margins, but that can be made up for in greater volume of mined diamonds traded.
It is also worth pointing out that the diamond success rate is sustainable, but not every growth cycle is profitable. While we can monitor the external HPHT equipment, we cannot see the actual diamond growth until after the cycle is complete. For example, a cycle may run for two weeks, but we find out afterward that it stopped growing on day three, or there were some bad inclusions on day six, and what could have been polished into a one carat gemstone (and cost the same to grow) may not yield anything, or may only yield a much smaller gemstone. The total production cost has to be averaged over the total successful sales. This includes growing diamonds that sit in inventory for a long time due to lower clarity, less desirable colors, etc.
From there, the cost for polishing, grading reports, jewelry, logistics, marketing, etc. are all basically the same whether the diamond was grown or mined. White grown diamonds are generally 10-30% less expensive at retail than mined diamonds, however most of that is just due to lean, vertically integrated companies. We grow, cut, distribute and retail our diamonds as well as jewelry, so have a bigger slice of the rough-to-retail pie. That extra margin isn't huge, but is enough to sustain the business as well as progress the research, development and production. Mined diamonds pass through many more hands between the mine and the consumer, and each step adds some markup. A mined diamond entity that only sells rough, only polishes, or only buys and sells polished mined diamonds at wholesale would see smaller margins, but that can be made up for in greater volume of mined diamonds traded.
It is also worth pointing out that the diamond success rate is sustainable, but not every growth cycle is profitable. While we can monitor the external HPHT equipment, we cannot see the actual diamond growth until after the cycle is complete. For example, a cycle may run for two weeks, but we find out afterward that it stopped growing on day three, or there were some bad inclusions on day six, and what could have been polished into a one carat gemstone (and cost the same to grow) may not yield anything, or may only yield a much smaller gemstone. The total production cost has to be averaged over the total successful sales. This includes growing diamonds that sit in inventory for a long time due to lower clarity, less desirable colors, etc.
Do the lab grown diamonds come out of the process as the cubish shape as rough diamonds? Do you still send them off to be cut/polished by 3rd parties? How do you sell them?
They all need polished into their final shapes (round brilliant, princess, pear, anvil, etc.), or can be sliced into plates, cubes or cylinders with lasers.
HPHT (high pressure, high temperature) grows from a tiny diamond seed (<1mm) and the growth sort of "snowballs". Blue and white/colorless are a hexacubic type shape while yellow are a truncated octahedron shape.
White/Colorless: http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-hpht-white.jpg Yellow (industrial recipe): http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-hpht-yellow.jpg
CVD (chemical vapor deposition) grows basically straight up from a diamond plate, so are generally cuboids. Spontaneous polycrystalline diamond can grow on the sides, but is hard, black and unusable for the same applications as single-crystal. CVD (poly is cut off): http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-cvd-brown.jpg
When CVD grows brown or gray, it is usually due to atomic-level defects in the diamond, which can be healed through post-growth treatment, turning it a near colorless or light yellow color. This CVD photo was HPHT treated to a light yellow, then further treated to become a nice fancy pink. It is also possible to have CVD grow near colorless, without requiring treatment.
We sell diamonds for jewelry on our retail website: https://d.neadiamonds.com They are also available for high-value industrial and wholesale jewelry applications.
HPHT (high pressure, high temperature) grows from a tiny diamond seed (<1mm) and the growth sort of "snowballs". Blue and white/colorless are a hexacubic type shape while yellow are a truncated octahedron shape.
White/Colorless: http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-hpht-white.jpg Yellow (industrial recipe): http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-hpht-yellow.jpg
CVD (chemical vapor deposition) grows basically straight up from a diamond plate, so are generally cuboids. Spontaneous polycrystalline diamond can grow on the sides, but is hard, black and unusable for the same applications as single-crystal. CVD (poly is cut off): http://d.neadiamonds.com/images/rough-cvd-brown.jpg
When CVD grows brown or gray, it is usually due to atomic-level defects in the diamond, which can be healed through post-growth treatment, turning it a near colorless or light yellow color. This CVD photo was HPHT treated to a light yellow, then further treated to become a nice fancy pink. It is also possible to have CVD grow near colorless, without requiring treatment.
We sell diamonds for jewelry on our retail website: https://d.neadiamonds.com They are also available for high-value industrial and wholesale jewelry applications.
Can you email me at bluedevil2k@gmail? I work in the diamond industry and am curious about your sales channels
Are lab grown diamonds used much for industrial applications such as cutting heads and blades?
Yes. Cutting blades are in the middle of the industrial spectrum. They are generally 2-5mm in dimension and need to be grown relatively clean, but color does not matter, so they are commonly yellow or brown (those colors grow faster than white or blue).
See my other post for other industrial applications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13088523
See my other post for other industrial applications: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13088523
Are other lab grown gemstones made with roughly the same HPHT process? I ended up getting a diamond from Gemesis for my wife years ago, this is a very fascinating topic for us.
The core science of diamond growth inside an HPHT cell is essentially the same (a diamond seed, heat, pressure and graphite). There are a lot of variations in the composition of the cell though, which can control color (brown, orange, yellow, blue, colorless, near colorless), as well as overall quality, quantity and size of the diamond.
Outside of the growth cell, the machine and environment also influence growth. Temperature and pressure ranges, tolerances and gradients of the press all factor in to the final quality of the diamond. Ambient room temperature and humidity as well as conditions during the growth cell preparation play a role too.
For consumers though, when considering two 1.0ct G color, VS2 clarity round polished diamonds (for example), it doesn't really matter what process it came from, who grew it or what size or shape the rough diamond was.
Outside of the growth cell, the machine and environment also influence growth. Temperature and pressure ranges, tolerances and gradients of the press all factor in to the final quality of the diamond. Ambient room temperature and humidity as well as conditions during the growth cell preparation play a role too.
For consumers though, when considering two 1.0ct G color, VS2 clarity round polished diamonds (for example), it doesn't really matter what process it came from, who grew it or what size or shape the rough diamond was.
I appreciate the info, but I was actually thinking of other gem stones with my question (amethyst, etc)
Why are lab grown diamonds still priced in the 1000+ range. Does it actually cost that much to manufacture.
Making up research cost?
Just high profit margin?
I just added this related comment:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13089809
TL;DR They have very similar cost structures as mined diamonds (rough [mine vs. grow], polishing, grading, etc.), plus the R&D and failure/success rates.
TL;DR They have very similar cost structures as mined diamonds (rough [mine vs. grow], polishing, grading, etc.), plus the R&D and failure/success rates.
do you sell online?
Can a non specialist jeweller tell the difference?
Can a non specialist jeweller tell the difference?
We do sell online: https://d.neadiamonds.com
They are 100% real diamond, just grown instead of mined. A typical jeweler cannot conclusively identify a diamond's origin, however gemological grading labs with more advanced equipment can. Companies are trying to develop inexpensive testing devices, like exist for cubic zirconia and moissanite, but so far they are expensive and limited to those major grading labs.
There are a few ways to identify the grown origin: -Most grown diamonds sold for jewelry have independent grading reports from gemological grading labs (GIA, IGI, EGL, GCAL, etc.) identifying them as grown. Part of this grading process is to laser inscribe the diamond with wording like "Laboratory Grown". This inscription can be read on the diamond with 10-20x magnification.
-Inclusions can be different in grown diamonds, however are graded on the same clarity scale as mined diamonds (VVS, VS, SI, etc.). Metallic inclusions are extremely rare in mined diamonds, but common in HPHT-grown, since they grow in a molten metal solution. CVD inclusions can be graphite or have planar characteristics.
-Grown white/colorless diamonds are all "Type IIa", which means few to no impurities. Less than 2% of mined diamonds are type IIa. ~98% of mined diamonds are type Ia and actually contain more nitrogen than grown fancy yellow diamonds (type Ib). Equipment that can check these impurity levels are good initial screening tests (2% false positive for IIa mined diamonds). For completeness, type IIb contain trace amounts of boron, and make the diamond blue and electrically conductive. These IIb diamonds can eventually be used as semiconductors.
-Disclosure. We are proud of our grown diamonds, and the other producers are too. Most of our customers buy them because they are made by scientists and technicians in high tech labs. It took longer to grow jewelry quality diamonds than it did to put humans on the moon. Mined diamonds do support economies in remote and third-world regions of the world, but can come with their own environmental and social issues.
They are 100% real diamond, just grown instead of mined. A typical jeweler cannot conclusively identify a diamond's origin, however gemological grading labs with more advanced equipment can. Companies are trying to develop inexpensive testing devices, like exist for cubic zirconia and moissanite, but so far they are expensive and limited to those major grading labs.
There are a few ways to identify the grown origin: -Most grown diamonds sold for jewelry have independent grading reports from gemological grading labs (GIA, IGI, EGL, GCAL, etc.) identifying them as grown. Part of this grading process is to laser inscribe the diamond with wording like "Laboratory Grown". This inscription can be read on the diamond with 10-20x magnification.
-Inclusions can be different in grown diamonds, however are graded on the same clarity scale as mined diamonds (VVS, VS, SI, etc.). Metallic inclusions are extremely rare in mined diamonds, but common in HPHT-grown, since they grow in a molten metal solution. CVD inclusions can be graphite or have planar characteristics.
-Grown white/colorless diamonds are all "Type IIa", which means few to no impurities. Less than 2% of mined diamonds are type IIa. ~98% of mined diamonds are type Ia and actually contain more nitrogen than grown fancy yellow diamonds (type Ib). Equipment that can check these impurity levels are good initial screening tests (2% false positive for IIa mined diamonds). For completeness, type IIb contain trace amounts of boron, and make the diamond blue and electrically conductive. These IIb diamonds can eventually be used as semiconductors.
-Disclosure. We are proud of our grown diamonds, and the other producers are too. Most of our customers buy them because they are made by scientists and technicians in high tech labs. It took longer to grow jewelry quality diamonds than it did to put humans on the moon. Mined diamonds do support economies in remote and third-world regions of the world, but can come with their own environmental and social issues.
How did you learn how to make them?
The core HPHT technology was originally developed by Soviet research institutions. After the fall of the Soviet Union, this information basically became public domain. It took decades of incremental improvement to get the diamonds up to jewelry-grade qualities. Prior to jewelry-grade though, the production could be used in industrial applications (cutting blades, optics, etc.).
In addition to created diamonds, there are other stones that are different from and in some aspects better than diamonds.
The best one seems to be Moissanite, which also has the rather pedestrian name of silicon carbide. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite
Here's a strong opinion about why diamonds suck and you should go with alternatives: http://diamondssuck.com/
Lastly, a more dispassionate analysis: http://www.doamore.com/diamonds-vs-moissanite/
Moissanite can be 90% cheaper than equivalent diamond, not just 30%.
The best one seems to be Moissanite, which also has the rather pedestrian name of silicon carbide. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite
Here's a strong opinion about why diamonds suck and you should go with alternatives: http://diamondssuck.com/
Lastly, a more dispassionate analysis: http://www.doamore.com/diamonds-vs-moissanite/
Moissanite can be 90% cheaper than equivalent diamond, not just 30%.
Disclaimer: I hold a small amount of stock (and lost a lot of market value) in a silicon-carbide gem company.
Yep - silicon carbide is very cool. It's weakly birefringent, which can be noticeable in larger gems, but the refractive index is larger than that of diamond, and the dispersion is greater too.
No matter from whence your gems come, the nuclei were largely forged at the heart of a star, same as everything but the hydrogen in your body.
The only people to whom I recommend natural stones are those with a connection to the earth or to a specific place. Geologists have a soft spot for natural diamonds. When considering an engagement ring for my now-wife, I spent a lot of time looking at sapphires from Montana. Only the risk of shattering them in a tension setting kept me from going that route.
The final thing that nudged me into synthetic stones was looking into the open-pit Cripple Creek gold mine. The environmental destruction we create in search of precious materials is considerable. Synthetic stones are made from carbon, sand, and electric power, all comparatively easy on the planet.
Diamonds are cool. So are lots of other choices. Look around; it's neat.
Yep - silicon carbide is very cool. It's weakly birefringent, which can be noticeable in larger gems, but the refractive index is larger than that of diamond, and the dispersion is greater too.
No matter from whence your gems come, the nuclei were largely forged at the heart of a star, same as everything but the hydrogen in your body.
The only people to whom I recommend natural stones are those with a connection to the earth or to a specific place. Geologists have a soft spot for natural diamonds. When considering an engagement ring for my now-wife, I spent a lot of time looking at sapphires from Montana. Only the risk of shattering them in a tension setting kept me from going that route.
The final thing that nudged me into synthetic stones was looking into the open-pit Cripple Creek gold mine. The environmental destruction we create in search of precious materials is considerable. Synthetic stones are made from carbon, sand, and electric power, all comparatively easy on the planet.
Diamonds are cool. So are lots of other choices. Look around; it's neat.
Big discussion last month: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464
Apparently moissanite just came off patent protection last year so it is an even better option now than when some of those resources were created.
Apparently moissanite just came off patent protection last year so it is an even better option now than when some of those resources were created.
Yep, my now fiance loves her Moissanite stone. I actually got it from AliExpress and then had it appraised by a jeweler to check it's authenticity. Saved a bunch of money and got a great product.
Link/source?
Pictures?
Diamon vs Mossanite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZE3Vkb85Z4
Thank you!
Both pretty but I can't see myself spending much on either.
Both pretty but I can't see myself spending much on either.
We may have started turning corner on this one. A friend, senior in the diamond industry, recently commented on how she, too, has caught herself judging younger couples who opt for natural-diamond wedding tokens. At best, she assumes they're ignorant of the worthlessness of ground-dug diamonds.
So would Moissanite be a better alternative for encasing nuclear waste batteries?
I hate that name because they do NOT run on nuclear waste - you have to make nuclear material specially for them. Ordinary waste from a power plant will not work!
Anyway I think they use carbon for its electrical properties, not the strength.
Anyway I think they use carbon for its electrical properties, not the strength.
They're planning to use carbon-14 from the graphite moderators of nuclear reactors. The U.K. has 95,000 tons of them in storage.
http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-are-turning-nuclear-w...
http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-are-turning-nuclear-w...
Carbon-14 is not the type of nuclear waste anyone is worried about. It's barely radioactive, with a long half life and very low decay energy. Disposing of it doesn't pose any issues because it is unable to make anything else radioactive.
You want to make a long lasting low power nuclear battery? Go for it. But don't try to trick people into thinking you are doing anything about nuclear waste.
The nuclear waste that causes problems is the type with neutron decay that is able to activate nearby elements. That is tricky to dispose of, and difficult to store.
You want to make a long lasting low power nuclear battery? Go for it. But don't try to trick people into thinking you are doing anything about nuclear waste.
The nuclear waste that causes problems is the type with neutron decay that is able to activate nearby elements. That is tricky to dispose of, and difficult to store.
You didn't specify whether it was waste anyone worries about. You claimed the material has to be made specially for these batteries. That's not the case, it's literally a radioactive waste material from nuclear reactors.
According to the article I linked, it does need to be safely stored, since it's dangerous to touch or ingest, and it needs that storage for a long period of time.
According to the article I linked, it does need to be safely stored, since it's dangerous to touch or ingest, and it needs that storage for a long period of time.
Last month when the HN discussion on moissanite came out, I looked around for moissanite polishing tutorial and how to create your own moissanite. To my surprise, there were so limited resources available online
Manufacturing your own moissanite is hard. Crystalline silicon carbide is produced as an industrial process for the semiconductor industry. Jewelry makers purchase boules from them. The major US moissanite maker sources their SiC from Cree.
Cutting and polishing, however, should be comparable to any other gemstone.
Cutting and polishing, however, should be comparable to any other gemstone.
"It's a Mossanite"
"...a...what-a-nite?"
"A Mossainite. Artificial, spurious, not-genuine and it's worth....fuck all"
"...a...what-a-nite?"
"A Mossainite. Artificial, spurious, not-genuine and it's worth....fuck all"
Diamonds aren't worth much because they're actually not that rare. The only reason they command the price they do now is because of the De Beers cartel.
The "diamond alternative" meme is becoming increasingly popular with our generation, such that I predict that in a few generations nobody will care to buy "real" diamonds for engagement purposes. When this happens, the price of diamonds will fall dramatically (if it hasn't already by that point).
Diamonds are so overrated.
The "diamond alternative" meme is becoming increasingly popular with our generation, such that I predict that in a few generations nobody will care to buy "real" diamonds for engagement purposes. When this happens, the price of diamonds will fall dramatically (if it hasn't already by that point).
Diamonds are so overrated.
almost nobody cared about diamonds 3 generations ago too. marketing, nothing more.
when I see women boasting with their ground diamond jewelry they are telling me couple of things: a) they are a bit ignorant; b) they have sheepish crowd mentality; c) they put too much emphasis on what others thing about themselves, which just shows other personality issues; d) and most importantly they are willingly supporting genocide and enslavement for all above
which is OK, good to know immediately who you are dealing with
when I see women boasting with their ground diamond jewelry they are telling me couple of things: a) they are a bit ignorant; b) they have sheepish crowd mentality; c) they put too much emphasis on what others thing about themselves, which just shows other personality issues; d) and most importantly they are willingly supporting genocide and enslavement for all above
which is OK, good to know immediately who you are dealing with
It was a movie reference though.
What do I know about diamonds? I'm a boxing promoter. I was a happy boxing promoter until a week ago ...
The fact that there is so much concern over how to differentiate mined diamonds from grown diamonds seems like insanity to me. I understand that the diamond trade has a vested interest in differentiating, but why would end consumer care? They're the exact same product to the unaided eye. This is a purely emotional response. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that it's a misguided emotional response -- it seems clear that it would reduce human and environmental suffering to purchase the grown diamonds.
Because the purveyors of diamonds, and you could argue jewelry in general, have positioned themselves as proxies for love and sex. Those are the things we value and the reasons we spend money, but we're not allowed, either by societal convention or law, to spend money on them directly. But we're allowed to spend exorbitant amounts of money on a glittery status symbols that serves as a measure of devotion. It's not the rock itself that's important, it's the willingness to sacrifice a substantial amount of money.
So if the point of buying a diamond is to show your love for someone by sacrificing a meaningful amount of money, it becomes important to distinguish between stones that someone actually sacrificed a substantial amount of money to purchase and stones where someone didn't sacrifice as much.
We'd do better to address the insane custom of needing an expensive proxy for love. Think about it...if the custom were for a man to take two months salary, withdraw it from the bank in $100 bills, drop to one knee and present it to his girlfriend while asking her to marry him, we'd find that insulting. It would be like he's paying for love/sex, which our society deems dirty or objectifying to women. But substitute a glittery rock mounted on a hunk of metal, both largely obtained by heaping further misery on various third-world locations, and we somehow find that acceptable? Accepting the money would make her a whore, but accepting the ring just means her boyfriend loves her?
It's illogical and hopefully more women start making it known to their boyfriends that the ring isn't necessary and all that extra money, if it needs to be spent on something impractical, can be spent on making the wedding just a bit more lavish.
So if the point of buying a diamond is to show your love for someone by sacrificing a meaningful amount of money, it becomes important to distinguish between stones that someone actually sacrificed a substantial amount of money to purchase and stones where someone didn't sacrifice as much.
We'd do better to address the insane custom of needing an expensive proxy for love. Think about it...if the custom were for a man to take two months salary, withdraw it from the bank in $100 bills, drop to one knee and present it to his girlfriend while asking her to marry him, we'd find that insulting. It would be like he's paying for love/sex, which our society deems dirty or objectifying to women. But substitute a glittery rock mounted on a hunk of metal, both largely obtained by heaping further misery on various third-world locations, and we somehow find that acceptable? Accepting the money would make her a whore, but accepting the ring just means her boyfriend loves her?
It's illogical and hopefully more women start making it known to their boyfriends that the ring isn't necessary and all that extra money, if it needs to be spent on something impractical, can be spent on making the wedding just a bit more lavish.
Very wise. It's going to be up to the women to tell their men they don't want this crap. At the end of the day us men are just going to get you what you want to make you happy.
In Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep owning a "real" animal was considered a status symbol, since most "real" species had died from radiation poisoning. The poor and middle class could, of course, only afford the synthetic animals.
Obviously this isn't exactly like that, but I imagine there will still be a market for mined diamonds and they'd be priced accordingly.
Obviously this isn't exactly like that, but I imagine there will still be a market for mined diamonds and they'd be priced accordingly.
"why would end consumer care? […] This is a purely emotional response"
Most consumers buy diamonds on emotion, not ratio. If you're buying something to carve into glass with, you don't care. De Beers (very successfully, so far) markets natural diamonds as something you buy to express your love with. If you did _that_ rationally, you likely wouldn't buy a diamond at all.
Most consumers buy diamonds on emotion, not ratio. If you're buying something to carve into glass with, you don't care. De Beers (very successfully, so far) markets natural diamonds as something you buy to express your love with. If you did _that_ rationally, you likely wouldn't buy a diamond at all.
> I understand that the diamond trade has a vested interest in differentiating, but why would end consumer care?
Because for some consumers, the scarcity (artificial though it may be) of mined diamonds is what they are buying for.
And because for other consumers, ethical concerns that favor artifical diamonds are what they are buying for.
In either case, knowing that you are getting what you want and not something else is a concern.
> This is a purely emotional response.
Value is always subjective and largely emotional.
Because for some consumers, the scarcity (artificial though it may be) of mined diamonds is what they are buying for.
And because for other consumers, ethical concerns that favor artifical diamonds are what they are buying for.
In either case, knowing that you are getting what you want and not something else is a concern.
> This is a purely emotional response.
Value is always subjective and largely emotional.
I don't get it either. It's very similar with pearls. As long as they look great and last as long as the natural variant, why should I care?
a large part of the point of a diamond is the emotional response. It's not just about how it looks, it's about how rare it is, even if only you know it.
I guess you mean you think it, because natural diamonds are not that rare.
I shopped for created diamonds a year or two ago, and like others was disappointed with the cost savings. It seems awfully odd that on the spectrum from $0.01/caret to $1,000,000/caret, that created diamonds ended up costing exactly the same as a mined diamond, less maybe 30%. It's clear that there are only a couple players in the clear created diamonds market, and no one is too eager for a price war and to stop printing money. In which case it doesn't sound all that different from the mined diamond market
It's different in that there are a lot less slaves and warfare involved in the production of these new products.
I have other comments in this thread about cost, but it basically comes down to "they cost a lot more to grow than people think", and the costs after the rough diamond is grown are basically the same as mined diamonds (cutting, grading, etc.). Diamond is the hardest substance on earth, and it costs far more to polish one of those, regardless of origin, than it does to polish an imitation or other gemstone.
In someway I like the fact that diamonds are only valuable to the women who it is bought for and just like a marriage you really can't get a refund. The resale value of diamonds is garbage.
This is wonderful! I can't comprehend the need to mine for diamonds any longer. Such a dangerous, dirty, damaging practice. It is sad to see that the industry is trying to paint these as inferior.
I would love to see some sort of tariff or sanction placed on mined diamonds to make them restrictively expensive. There is simply no need for them any longer.
I would love to see some sort of tariff or sanction placed on mined diamonds to make them restrictively expensive. There is simply no need for them any longer.
There already is, it's called De Beers. It's exactly because of the artificially inflated price that the mining practices are damaging.
Once I learnt more about De Beers, I'm wondering if there is any other product that one could pull of such stunt and make themselves billionaires?
Step one - find a rare mineral that at this point has value close to zero. It is rare but worthless.
Step two - obtain monopoly on mining it or control it as much as you can (buy spots with dense occurrence, etc)
Step three - throw money at important and powerful people (such as Spielberg, so that in his new movie today's Marilyn Monroe is wearing your ore as a form of very high luxury) other media stars, politicians etc.
Step four - continue with excellent PR until enough wives or soon-to-be wives come to their soon-to-be husbands and request them to update their luxury status by buying your ore.
Step five - collect trillions of dollars across the globe, by tightly controlling your ore and its harvest.
Edit: step six - rinse and repeat for 50 years getting yourself even wealthier.
Step one - find a rare mineral that at this point has value close to zero. It is rare but worthless.
Step two - obtain monopoly on mining it or control it as much as you can (buy spots with dense occurrence, etc)
Step three - throw money at important and powerful people (such as Spielberg, so that in his new movie today's Marilyn Monroe is wearing your ore as a form of very high luxury) other media stars, politicians etc.
Step four - continue with excellent PR until enough wives or soon-to-be wives come to their soon-to-be husbands and request them to update their luxury status by buying your ore.
Step five - collect trillions of dollars across the globe, by tightly controlling your ore and its harvest.
Edit: step six - rinse and repeat for 50 years getting yourself even wealthier.
> Once I learnt more about De Beers, I'm wondering if there is any other product that one could pull of such stunt and make themselves billionaires?
Various sports. Formula One, for instance, is the epitome of racing despite there being plenty of other ways to race cars.
Bottled water. Competes with a spout that everyone has several of in their home, yet people still pay up for it.
Various sports. Formula One, for instance, is the epitome of racing despite there being plenty of other ways to race cars.
Bottled water. Competes with a spout that everyone has several of in their home, yet people still pay up for it.
> I'm wondering if there is any other product that one could pull of such stunt and make themselves billionaires?
Maybe not exactly billionaires, but
If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. :)
Maybe not exactly billionaires, but
If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. :)
Not sure if anyone will appreciate this, but if you haven't seen it, it's oddly relevant to your comment:
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/acaxis/key-and-peele-the-heist
It's a skit by Key & Peele describing a genius plan for a bank heist. I won't ruin the punchline by going any further.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/acaxis/key-and-peele-the-heist
It's a skit by Key & Peele describing a genius plan for a bank heist. I won't ruin the punchline by going any further.
Creating artifical preference for something peoplease can only get from you is pretty much what the entire field of marketing is about; deBeers may be an outstanding success, but they aren't doing anything (in those terms) fundamentally different than pretty much every business on the planet is trying to do, just with different mechanisms of establishing moats.
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Except De Beers gets to keep the money, thus making it attractive to dig big holes.
If they had to hand it over to the Customs Officers those holes would suddenly be less attractive.
If they had to hand it over to the Customs Officers those holes would suddenly be less attractive.
Conflict diamonds would still be profitable, and diamonds are easy to smuggle. If lab diamonds can overcome the marketing problem, they will bury De Beers and drive the price into the ground for natural diamonds, and the whole dirty industry goes away.
Not all diamond types/classes are being manufactured. Synthetic diamonds will always be different from natural stones specifically because they lack natural imperfections. Not everyone wants perfection.
>Not everyone wants perfection.
Sure. On the other hand, if the synthetic diamonds were the flawed ones, you'd be saying "not everyone will settle for imperfection".
Sure. On the other hand, if the synthetic diamonds were the flawed ones, you'd be saying "not everyone will settle for imperfection".
Imperfections can be added
Imperfection are naturally formed, you cant naturally create imperfections that just become by definition artficially created imperfections.
Well, what if it's done randomly? (like, by software that controls the machine that grows it)
Or, modify the growing process so that it has a greater element of chance to it? (this is likely multi-dimensional)
Or, modify the growing process so that it has a greater element of chance to it? (this is likely multi-dimensional)
Whatever randomization isn't natural (and it can't be completely random as it needs to look natural). But it's not really the point.
A diamonds primary value is the history of it's making. People are unfortunately always going to be paying more for a diamond which has been digged out by hard labour than created in a lab.
Keep in mind the value of diamonds is mostly a perceptive one. I am pretty sure if you only did synthetic diamonds it would soon fail to be valuable as the "womans best friend"
A diamonds primary value is the history of it's making. People are unfortunately always going to be paying more for a diamond which has been digged out by hard labour than created in a lab.
Keep in mind the value of diamonds is mostly a perceptive one. I am pretty sure if you only did synthetic diamonds it would soon fail to be valuable as the "womans best friend"
> Not everyone wants perfection.
Really, diamond is one of those stones where it is the less true. Partially because of brilliant marketing, partially because in such a tiny clear stone the effect is mostly to dull it (speaking of it physical characteristics, not the emotional response).
That is not the case in Rubies or Sapphires. Emerald is meant to have imperfection.
Really, diamond is one of those stones where it is the less true. Partially because of brilliant marketing, partially because in such a tiny clear stone the effect is mostly to dull it (speaking of it physical characteristics, not the emotional response).
That is not the case in Rubies or Sapphires. Emerald is meant to have imperfection.
"Not everyone wants perfection."
So you went with a "natural" N/I1/fair?
So you went with a "natural" N/I1/fair?
> His lab can tell the difference — they use microscopes and other instruments to look for subtle features that reveal a diamond's origin.
Wild guess as to why anyone can tell the difference: Lab-grown diamonds are more perfect than mined ones. It's probably pretty trivial to introduce impurities to degrade the color, or change the deposition temperature in order to create faults in the lattice. Hell, throw in a microparticle or two for inclusions.
I'd love to know more though, anyone got a reference?
Wild guess as to why anyone can tell the difference: Lab-grown diamonds are more perfect than mined ones. It's probably pretty trivial to introduce impurities to degrade the color, or change the deposition temperature in order to create faults in the lattice. Hell, throw in a microparticle or two for inclusions.
I'd love to know more though, anyone got a reference?
Diamond growers try their best to keep out impurities and imperfections. Elemental impurities do add color (nitrogen=yellow, boron=blue), same as mined diamonds, and faults and inclusions do naturally happen in the process. However, at an atomic level, they are different than inclusions and imperfections in mined diamonds.
As a producer, I don't see any incentive to make them imperfect on purpose, yet still distinguishable from mined diamonds. All larger diamonds intended for gemstones come with independent grading reports, which will still identify it as grown regardless of presence or lack of impurities and imperfections.
While not technically correct, some of the advanced detection equipment can be thought of like looking at growth rings on a tree. You (probably) can't replicate the growth rings of a 200 year old tree in a 5 year old tree, yet both are perfectly valid sources of wood (sustainability, etc. aside).
As a producer, I don't see any incentive to make them imperfect on purpose, yet still distinguishable from mined diamonds. All larger diamonds intended for gemstones come with independent grading reports, which will still identify it as grown regardless of presence or lack of impurities and imperfections.
While not technically correct, some of the advanced detection equipment can be thought of like looking at growth rings on a tree. You (probably) can't replicate the growth rings of a 200 year old tree in a 5 year old tree, yet both are perfectly valid sources of wood (sustainability, etc. aside).
It's funny to see this pop up now. I've spent the past few days researching my big experiment project for next year: an open design CVD reactor for artificial diamonds.
I don't intend to commercialize it at all, but if I can 1) learn a lot, 2) make an open design that others can build on, and 3) (the long shot) make small diamonds for my wedding ring at the end of the year, I'll be a happy man.
If anyone is interested in working on this (particularly if you have experience designing systems dealing with pressurized gasses), my email is in my profile.
I don't intend to commercialize it at all, but if I can 1) learn a lot, 2) make an open design that others can build on, and 3) (the long shot) make small diamonds for my wedding ring at the end of the year, I'll be a happy man.
If anyone is interested in working on this (particularly if you have experience designing systems dealing with pressurized gasses), my email is in my profile.
I would love to get into hacking/tinkering based on processes like MBE/CVD etc. Does anyone know where to get started in terms of reading, what are the options for a hobbyist?
I can't speak to MBE, but for CVD I mostly just googled around and read any papers I could find. However, IIT Madras has an entire course on the subject, all of which are on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsDO7gUBYjg
I've been learning a lot from that, though it's focused on laying down semiconductor layers; most of the info on CVD diamonds seems to be locked away in proprietary processes for various manufacturers. I foresee a lot of failed experiments in my future!
I've been learning a lot from that, though it's focused on laying down semiconductor layers; most of the info on CVD diamonds seems to be locked away in proprietary processes for various manufacturers. I foresee a lot of failed experiments in my future!
Let's give Moissanite a new catchy, less complex name. Else, it will remain unknown.
I propose the name Moon Stone.
Star fire would have been great but it'll be confused with Sapphire.
See ffg for effect of company name pronunciability on market share, stock price, brand value...
http://m.pnas.org/content/103/24/9369.full
http://russelljame.com/Fluency_JFE_2013.pdf
I propose the name Moon Stone.
Star fire would have been great but it'll be confused with Sapphire.
See ffg for effect of company name pronunciability on market share, stock price, brand value...
http://m.pnas.org/content/103/24/9369.full
http://russelljame.com/Fluency_JFE_2013.pdf
"Sanité" - it's related to 'moissanite', the 'é' makes it sound classy, and of course it's pronounced 'sanity' as that is what it brings to the whole ridiculous diamond situation.
Moonstone already exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonstone_(gemstone)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonstone_(gemstone)
Silicon carbide is a good name.
We could call it "Pierre de Moissan".
At some point in the near future, maybe 1 year, maybe 10, anyone with a spare couple million dollars will be able to buy a machine to grow diamonds indistinguishable from mined diamonds, defects and all. No one will be able to tell at all, and the market will be flooded. Prices for mined & manufactured alike will crater.
There is no future for mined diamonds.
There is no future for mined diamonds.
The price of a basic CVD system is already much lower than that.[1] The process is slow, though. Weeks of time in the vacuum chamber with vapor being deposited one layer of atoms at a time.
[1] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/1200C-Chemical-vapor-...
[1] https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/1200C-Chemical-vapor-...
at some point 15-20 years or so ago De Beers started laser etching logos on the diamonds for exactly this reason.
Wasn't the public reason for laser etching to prevent conflict diamonds from having a market?
[deleted]
The largest diamond in the world still is natural, isn't it? Will it ever be synthetic and if so when?
>The largest diamond in the world still is natural, isn't it?
It's most definitely a natural diamond, and it's also most definitely undiscovered in some incredibly rich diamond deposit.
It's most definitely a natural diamond, and it's also most definitely undiscovered in some incredibly rich diamond deposit.
Only 30% cheaper?
I once heard a dollar a caret from one of the startups a decade ago...
I once heard a dollar a caret from one of the startups a decade ago...
Without actually knowing anything about the subject my guess is that the very cheep synthetic diamonds you heard about were / are intended for tools, (Where all that they care about is the hardness, so they can be small, yellow, and messy)
Also, I do know that you can get synthetic ruby for ~$1/carat on ali-baba. (I actually bought a few)
Also, I do know that you can get synthetic ruby for ~$1/carat on ali-baba. (I actually bought a few)
Maybe that's just the current price point, though I haven't a clue what it would cost to produce one of these things. They're probably trying to capture as much surplus as possible right now.
Aren't pearls cultured for decades now? They are still sought for, nothing is more beautiful in a woman's neck than a pearl collar.
Not that it really matters at the end of the day, but there's probably some charm in knowing that your "cultured" pearl was still formed inside a bivalve living in the ocean, versus being made in a machine like a porcelain gobstopper.
That said, check out this cool picture: https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAA... I didn't realize it was so industrial...
That said, check out this cool picture: https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAA... I didn't realize it was so industrial...
welly(2)
> And larger stones get laser-inscribed, so that the manufactured stones literally have words like "lab-grown" written right on them.
Why?
Why?
Manufacturers want their product to be accepted for what it is, rather than a vehicle for defrauding others.
If someone bought a manufactured stone expecting it to have been mined (and paid the premium currently accorded to mined stones), the buyer might direct a fraction of their disappointment at the manufacturer, instead of the deserving fraudulent seller.
Adding a nigh-invisible mark makes it trivial for a jeweler to tell the difference, and stops all but the least-informed fraudulent sellers before they begin.
If someone bought a manufactured stone expecting it to have been mined (and paid the premium currently accorded to mined stones), the buyer might direct a fraction of their disappointment at the manufacturer, instead of the deserving fraudulent seller.
Adding a nigh-invisible mark makes it trivial for a jeweler to tell the difference, and stops all but the least-informed fraudulent sellers before they begin.
Is it true that it's actually illegal to pick up a diamond off the ground in South Africa?
Are these also going to be artificially inflated like mined diamonds?