Reddit Is Being Manipulated by Big Financial Services Companies(forbes.com)
forbes.com
Reddit Is Being Manipulated by Big Financial Services Companies
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jaymcgregor/2017/02/20/reddit-is-being-manipulated-by-big-financial-services-companies/2/#6a0796d824b5
54 comments
/r/popular is filtered by looking at the most popular filters that people have used on /r/all - and it turns out that heaps of people have /r/the_donald filtered out. Lots of people also filter the League of Legends sub, so that gets removed from /r/popular. Data is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/5ubthi/top...
I remember going through that thread and seeing all these people refusing to accept the data.
On what they call a "leftist" site, they question how an extremely toxic alt-right subreddit could be so heavily blocked.
It's ironic that in a `dataisbeautiful` subreddit, people ignore the data.
On what they call a "leftist" site, they question how an extremely toxic alt-right subreddit could be so heavily blocked.
It's ironic that in a `dataisbeautiful` subreddit, people ignore the data.
/r/popular isn't filtering with any bias to the left. The problem is that /r/the_donald has destroyed every other conservative or republican subreddit. Even /r/conspiracy has a forced policy against anything anti-45.
/r/conservative used to be a fair place for fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. Now, the rules are set up that criticizing 45 in any way or form is an bannable offense. Want to talk about how spending tens of millions a month just to transport 45 and all his family around is a complete waste of money? Ban.
So, the quality of the posts faded and therefore users who are sick of it have walked away and those subreddits have diminished in popularity. If you can have a discussion, why go to a place where someone is just going to unintelligibly scream at you?
Insular policies are to fault.
/r/conservative used to be a fair place for fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. Now, the rules are set up that criticizing 45 in any way or form is an bannable offense. Want to talk about how spending tens of millions a month just to transport 45 and all his family around is a complete waste of money? Ban.
So, the quality of the posts faded and therefore users who are sick of it have walked away and those subreddits have diminished in popularity. If you can have a discussion, why go to a place where someone is just going to unintelligibly scream at you?
Insular policies are to fault.
45?
45th president
So why is he calling President Trump 45?
HN is a place for serious discussion, I think we should call people by their name.
HN is a place for serious discussion, I think we should call people by their name.
Some people like to use shorthands that are common in DC. This is why you'll hear people enunciate POTUS as "POTE-US". Additionally you will occasionally hear people refer to Obama as "44"... if you are looking for the merger of these two, see President Obama's new twitter handle: https://twitter.com/potus44
People on internet message boards like to use lingo. I don't know how many times I've seen people use journalism lingo on HN, dek, graf, kicker, etc. It's not usually necessary but I think it makes people feel cool or send some signal...
People on internet message boards like to use lingo. I don't know how many times I've seen people use journalism lingo on HN, dek, graf, kicker, etc. It's not usually necessary but I think it makes people feel cool or send some signal...
I suspect as a follow-on from the days of "Bush 43", in which case it made at least a little sense to say Bush 41 and Bush 43, and not leave the listener wondering whether he had missed an "H.".
Also, r/politics is just basically an anti-Trump subreddit now. Long also, it was a neutral political news reporting sub with a policy for not editorializing the titles of submissions.
Bias, no matter which side of the aisle it strays to, is just a turn off.
Bias, no matter which side of the aisle it strays to, is just a turn off.
You don't need to editorialize the headlines, the administration has been a complete shitshow.
They don't even spell check, in an age where that just happens for you.
That's a special flavor of sloppy.
Given the number of grammar nazi's on reddit, what did you think would happen?
They don't even spell check, in an age where that just happens for you.
That's a special flavor of sloppy.
Given the number of grammar nazi's on reddit, what did you think would happen?
the spelling errors are deliberate, it adds authenticity.
You might like /r/NeutralPolitics/
Why don't you just login, then...? All of that just goes away when you only subscribe to quality subreddits that interest you.
I have actually started going to Digg again. It's actually quite good in comparison to Reddit lately.
hmmm, that's interesting, I may have to take a look at it again.
I was a part of the original mass exodus from Digg to reddit back when men were men, reddit was pissing off the lisp community, and reddit was mostly technical. That damned bar Digg introduced was horrible.
But I've always had a soft spot for Digg, I think I'll check it out again.
I was a part of the original mass exodus from Digg to reddit back when men were men, reddit was pissing off the lisp community, and reddit was mostly technical. That damned bar Digg introduced was horrible.
But I've always had a soft spot for Digg, I think I'll check it out again.
Just login to the site and pick the subreddits you want to see?
Anyone who thinks about it at all understands that reddit gets manipulated pretty heavily.
And for what it's worth, I stopped using FB and stay in specific subreddits now in large part due to the politics surrounding Trump.
I'm a left leaning moderate who got really sick and tired of all the outlandish gif/memes running through FB that completely mischaracterized BOTH candidates, and then the lefts response on reddit just ... disappointed is probably the best word I can think of (I am left leaning, after all).
In truth I only ever had 13 friends on FB and I know all of them in real life (And talk to them on a regular basis) so quitting FB wasn't really a big deal as I hardly used it except to post something I thought was amusing.
And with reddit I just stick to things like /r/programming, /r/printSF, etc. Even in /r/programming I've gotten irritated when I see people take completely unrelated topics and inject politics (trump hate) into it.
I guess the long and the short of it is that I understand completely, and I think your observations are fairly accurate.
And for what it's worth, I stopped using FB and stay in specific subreddits now in large part due to the politics surrounding Trump.
I'm a left leaning moderate who got really sick and tired of all the outlandish gif/memes running through FB that completely mischaracterized BOTH candidates, and then the lefts response on reddit just ... disappointed is probably the best word I can think of (I am left leaning, after all).
In truth I only ever had 13 friends on FB and I know all of them in real life (And talk to them on a regular basis) so quitting FB wasn't really a big deal as I hardly used it except to post something I thought was amusing.
And with reddit I just stick to things like /r/programming, /r/printSF, etc. Even in /r/programming I've gotten irritated when I see people take completely unrelated topics and inject politics (trump hate) into it.
I guess the long and the short of it is that I understand completely, and I think your observations are fairly accurate.
Yeah, not only the political bias they're permitting and encouraging is truly astounding but the /r/popular thing really re-introduced memes to the front page again too.
There's so much junk showing up there now that it's practically unusable on most nights unless what you really wanted to see was people complaining about Trump in shitty single image meme format.
There's so much junk showing up there now that it's practically unusable on most nights unless what you really wanted to see was people complaining about Trump in shitty single image meme format.
Astroturfing like this, shilling and manipulating discussion, has gotten so advanced that it's almost impossible to tell real opinions from fake anymore. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog[0]. I don't see any way to sort authentic comments from in-authentic ones. My conclusion has been to assume that any major conversation about companies/brands/products/governments on Reddit is probably astroturfed to some extent. HN "growth hackers" probably do the same thing.
This is a real problem, how to sort real users from the fake ones, and I'm not sure there is even a solution. But the integrity of our discourse, politics, and direction as a society is dependent upon finding a solution.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...
This is a real problem, how to sort real users from the fake ones, and I'm not sure there is even a solution. But the integrity of our discourse, politics, and direction as a society is dependent upon finding a solution.
0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...
This is actually something I've been quite curious about. For example, I know that stormfront regularly organizes brigades and disseminates talking points to disrupt conversation on Reddit - same with FSB/corporation/ etc.
I was wondering if I could mine all users on stormfront and then perform a stylometric analysis on Reddit posts to ferret out those same users.
Same with other astroturfing groups, instead maybe running some type of classification technique to find aockpuppet accounts.
I'll probably make this an ask hn at some point to get some input.
I was wondering if I could mine all users on stormfront and then perform a stylometric analysis on Reddit posts to ferret out those same users.
Same with other astroturfing groups, instead maybe running some type of classification technique to find aockpuppet accounts.
I'll probably make this an ask hn at some point to get some input.
> I know that stormfront regularly organizes brigades and disseminates talking points to disrupt conversation on Reddit
Any proof of this?
I am a bit skeptical of right-wing astroturfing/brigading having happened on Reddit, because it would have been a total and utter failure, given that Reddit is really left-leaning these days, even in non-political subs.
Any proof of this?
I am a bit skeptical of right-wing astroturfing/brigading having happened on Reddit, because it would have been a total and utter failure, given that Reddit is really left-leaning these days, even in non-political subs.
I don't know what stormfont is but I'd focus on /r/politics. I managed to bump randomly there in what looked liked bots or some organized trolling. In one case I disagreed with some topic regarding Clinton during elections and got this general (vague) insulting comment back. Looking through posters' history noticed they/it? just copy-pasted same thing into their other responses.
FSB ones might be fun too. There is a certain class of grammar mistakes Russians make when writing in English. You could filter by that in addition to other stuff.
FSB ones might be fun too. There is a certain class of grammar mistakes Russians make when writing in English. You could filter by that in addition to other stuff.
> FSB ones might be fun too. There is a certain class of grammar mistakes Russians make when writing in English. You could filter by that in addition to other stuff.
Cool, you would filter me out too. Or would you not? If my English is good enough to confuse your bot, then what stops FSB from hiring somebody like me?
Also, what stops FSB from hiring native speakers of English?
There are plenty of people on the Earth who speak Russian, but don't live in Russia and don't support the Russian government. Bear that in mind too, please.
Cool, you would filter me out too. Or would you not? If my English is good enough to confuse your bot, then what stops FSB from hiring somebody like me?
Also, what stops FSB from hiring native speakers of English?
There are plenty of people on the Earth who speak Russian, but don't live in Russia and don't support the Russian government. Bear that in mind too, please.
Heh, I meant it would be an additional filter not the primary. If you copy and paste the same response to multiple posts back to back you might be a robot, as Jeff Foxworthy would say :-)
FSB probably doesn't pay as many non-Russians on average. It would be expensive, risky and harder to control.
The point about grammar is interesting. Last time I heard of it was when there was discussion if Guccifer 2.0 was a Russian hacker or not. Some were saying he wasn't because his grammar mistakes were not characteristic of Russian speakers and most likely it was a native English speaker trying to talk in broken English trying to sound like a Russian.
FSB probably doesn't pay as many non-Russians on average. It would be expensive, risky and harder to control.
The point about grammar is interesting. Last time I heard of it was when there was discussion if Guccifer 2.0 was a Russian hacker or not. Some were saying he wasn't because his grammar mistakes were not characteristic of Russian speakers and most likely it was a native English speaker trying to talk in broken English trying to sound like a Russian.
> I don't know what stormfont is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_%28website%29
Stormfront is a white nationalist, white supremacist and neo-Nazi Internet forum that was the Web's first major racial hate site.
Stormfront began as an online bulletin board system in the early 1990s before being established as a website in 1996 by former Ku Klux Klan leader and white supremacist Don Black
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_%28website%29
Stormfront is a white nationalist, white supremacist and neo-Nazi Internet forum that was the Web's first major racial hate site.
Stormfront began as an online bulletin board system in the early 1990s before being established as a website in 1996 by former Ku Klux Klan leader and white supremacist Don Black
Makes sense, it is the new KKK.
I can hardly stand Reddit any more -- so many people seem to have agendas that drown out most authentic conversation. Which reminds me of a quote from the book "Schitt Happened":
> So, social media is less and less about "an authentic conversation with real people" and more "prospect-powered advertising." And in an environment where anyone can be a shill, and their financial motives aren't known, credibility disappears.
> Which leads me to my bold prediction: that in the next decade we're going to see paid, conventional advertising in big-name venues become the most credible source of information, and word-of-mouth the least credible.
> So, social media is less and less about "an authentic conversation with real people" and more "prospect-powered advertising." And in an environment where anyone can be a shill, and their financial motives aren't known, credibility disappears.
> Which leads me to my bold prediction: that in the next decade we're going to see paid, conventional advertising in big-name venues become the most credible source of information, and word-of-mouth the least credible.
Reddit is the wild wild west. Bots are everywhere, power mods sell their services to companies, admins editing comments without anyone kn0wing, it's just a big shit show.
I would be very skeptical of anything I read on there.
I would be very skeptical of anything I read on there.
Remember seeing in subreddit drama section a situation where the CEO went into the database and apparently changed one of the comments from Trump's subreddit. It was probably something insulting or taunting as usual. What was interesting to me is one of the admins then leaked internal Slack chat logs talking about the fallout of it and such. In there one of admins boasted getting paid by Correct The Record which I understand Democrats contacted with to control the narrative online. And I thought that's pretty brilliant - focus on admins and moderators of a popular site or subreddit is more effective than just picking any old Joe from the street.
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Reddit is just a very strange place where they sort of let users and mods do what they want, then step in randomly when they get too much bad press or the admins (like the CEO) disagree with the content.
It really does feel like Lord of the Flies
It really does feel like Lord of the Flies
Say anything even remotely negative about HFT and these guys pull out the claws. They don't hesitate to downvote either. It's really quite blatant once you know what to look for.
Wait, why would high-frequency traders care what people on reddit think? It's not like they're trying to sell their services to the public.
Are you sure you're not just seeing the usual flame wars over controversial subjects?
Are you sure you're not just seeing the usual flame wars over controversial subjects?
If banks could have paid a few agent provocateurs to disrupt the occupy Wall Street movement and handicap it out the gate, do you think they would have? Muddying the waters is a cheap and easy tactic to use.
Do you really think any banks were concerned enough about Occupy Wall Street to bother trying to disrupt it? I'm sure they were quaking in their boots.
And then they remembered the Glass-Steagal act was spurred by anti-bank hate and decided to hedge their bets. The cost of fielding a few sock puppets is literally a drop in the bucket for them, they don't have to regard OWS as an existential threat, merely in the way of their policy goals.
They appear to have been hired (or had their funding greatly increased) around the time Flashboys came out. It's not just Reddit either, you see them all across the web.
Serious question, though. How do you distinguish between the situation you're describing, and a situation where the release of Flash Boys resulted in a lot of zeitgeisty discussion about HFT, where people hashed out their differing opinions about it.
I ask because I don't think that the case against HFT is airtight, or that either side is obviously right. A lot of smart people have defended HFT to some extent (including HN's favorite finance writer, Matt Levine[0]).
I get the sense that there are a lot of people out there who read Flash Boys and assumed that HFTs are obviously the bad guys. I'm something of a contrarian, and pointing out the arguments in favor of HFT to those people is the kind of thing I would have done. (I don't remember a particular instance, but I probably did at one point.) In that situation, I wouldn't be surprised if some people assumed that I was a paid Wall Street shill (because obviously that's the only kind of person who would defend HFT under any circumstances, right?)
So while I'm not denying that manipulation does happen, I'm worried that it will give people license to discount anyone that disagrees with their personal received wisdom as nothing more than corporate puppets.
[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-03-31/michael-l...
I ask because I don't think that the case against HFT is airtight, or that either side is obviously right. A lot of smart people have defended HFT to some extent (including HN's favorite finance writer, Matt Levine[0]).
I get the sense that there are a lot of people out there who read Flash Boys and assumed that HFTs are obviously the bad guys. I'm something of a contrarian, and pointing out the arguments in favor of HFT to those people is the kind of thing I would have done. (I don't remember a particular instance, but I probably did at one point.) In that situation, I wouldn't be surprised if some people assumed that I was a paid Wall Street shill (because obviously that's the only kind of person who would defend HFT under any circumstances, right?)
So while I'm not denying that manipulation does happen, I'm worried that it will give people license to discount anyone that disagrees with their personal received wisdom as nothing more than corporate puppets.
[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2014-03-31/michael-l...
I really doubt wall street is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on equipment because they care about market liquidity. These people/services add absolutely nothing of value to society yet they suck up billions of dollars.
Very relevant:
https://youtu.be/TFPugioX7uk?t=22
Very relevant:
https://youtu.be/TFPugioX7uk?t=22
I've heard a lot of theories about Reddit, but nothing about HFT. Do you have any link/source?
Reddit still has value in niche subreddits. Do you play bass? r/bass will have conversations about techniques, beginner questions, pointers to bassists on youtube doing interesting things, etc. Think software defined radio is interesting? r/rtlsdr is the place for you. Etc.
There is a sweet spot where the subreddit has gained critical mass to sustain conversations, but haven't gotten big enough to draw in spammers and incite political arguments. There are thousands of such subreddits.
There is a sweet spot where the subreddit has gained critical mass to sustain conversations, but haven't gotten big enough to draw in spammers and incite political arguments. There are thousands of such subreddits.
I regularly visit /r/rust and am happy with how it's stayed away from politics. At one point, it almost brushed on it with Trump's travel ban affecting an event, but overall it's a nice "oasis" from the sea of politics.
What I don't get is isn't this simply wrong?
Did we not learn from our parents what is right and wrong? Lying? Making up stuff? Exaggeration?
Just because you are anonymous doesn't make it right.
Did we not learn from our parents what is right and wrong? Lying? Making up stuff? Exaggeration?
Just because you are anonymous doesn't make it right.
What I don't get is isn't this simply wrong?
Well, yeah, of course.
Do you normally expect propriety from for-profit organizations?
Well, yeah, of course.
Do you normally expect propriety from for-profit organizations?
There is a theory that organizations which are concerned with right and wrong will simply be out-competed by those with no such qualms.
There's an interesting essay on the subject: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
There's an interesting essay on the subject: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
It's just one step removed for paying a journalist to write an article for your brand/product. A practice which is now common place ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/business/media/sponsors-no...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/business/media/sponsors-no...
> English06 - who compares the moderator role to being a forum janitor - explained that to properly solve the problem, the volunteer moderators need more tools, or admins (Reddit staff) need to step in more.
> "There's always something to be done on the politics subreddit. And it's just, there's just a lot of volume. As far as stopping everything, there's nothing the moderators will ever be able to do. We can only see the user history. That's going to have to come from the admin side of things. There's just nothing we can do.”
When I read this, I get really enthusiastic about seeing what sorts of big-data analysis is technically possible.
And then...
> I presented Reddit with my findings and asked it if it’s doing enough to combat fake comments, threads and upvotes. But in a bizarre response, the company’s representative - Anna Soellner - didn’t bother to address any of these questions, instead providing a statement that seemed to be a response to my previous story.
> “In order to write your story, you and your co-author engaged in multiple levels of impersonation, violating the terms of service of Reddit. Our users recognized the stories you posted as fake and community moderators removed the links in a very short time frame. We are continuously working with our users and moderators to ensure the integrity of our site to promote genuine conversation.” Soellner said.
When I read stuff like this I get simultaneously really angry and incredibly sad at how vacuous and maliciously agenderized this incredibly popular website is.
This response is clearly a massive dodge, but from what? Why do they need to run and hide? I don't get it.
I can't help but think that Reddit (Inc.) itself is a massive, massive ivory tower, with only just enough of a connection to (and interest in) its userbase to know how to monetize it so the company can keep surviving. It's like the worst possible cyberpunk scene.
And obviously I don't want to help the admins!
> "There's always something to be done on the politics subreddit. And it's just, there's just a lot of volume. As far as stopping everything, there's nothing the moderators will ever be able to do. We can only see the user history. That's going to have to come from the admin side of things. There's just nothing we can do.”
When I read this, I get really enthusiastic about seeing what sorts of big-data analysis is technically possible.
And then...
> I presented Reddit with my findings and asked it if it’s doing enough to combat fake comments, threads and upvotes. But in a bizarre response, the company’s representative - Anna Soellner - didn’t bother to address any of these questions, instead providing a statement that seemed to be a response to my previous story.
> “In order to write your story, you and your co-author engaged in multiple levels of impersonation, violating the terms of service of Reddit. Our users recognized the stories you posted as fake and community moderators removed the links in a very short time frame. We are continuously working with our users and moderators to ensure the integrity of our site to promote genuine conversation.” Soellner said.
When I read stuff like this I get simultaneously really angry and incredibly sad at how vacuous and maliciously agenderized this incredibly popular website is.
This response is clearly a massive dodge, but from what? Why do they need to run and hide? I don't get it.
I can't help but think that Reddit (Inc.) itself is a massive, massive ivory tower, with only just enough of a connection to (and interest in) its userbase to know how to monetize it so the company can keep surviving. It's like the worst possible cyberpunk scene.
And obviously I don't want to help the admins!
I wonder, why the Reddit's owner Conde Nast does not step in into this mess. These advertising agencies completely sidestep Reddit's official ad channels, thereby robbing the company of profit. Logically Conde Nast would be pretty upset with it, unless they are using the same channels and means to manipulate collective opinion themselves. Given their notorious left-leaning position and more recent anti-trump campaign that seems pretty likely.
Anytime a substantial amount of attention aggregates in one place, there is an inherent bounty on said eyeballs.
So was the election! It was manipulated by Robert Mercer's quantitative investment powerhouse.
Are there any clear examples "in the wild"? That were successful?
Some filters include, "Subreddits that are large and dedicated to specific games are heavily filtered, as well as specific sports, and narrowly focused politically related subreddits, etc."
Yet, this past week, all I see on the front page are political posts & subreddits that are left leaning. Not to start a political argument, but, reddit makes it clear that they are filtering out posts that include conservative views. All I see are posts making fun of POTUS through memes, or how he caused a problem.
Politics aside, I just don't see how reddit will last if their political agenda outweighs their ability to provide a site which allows for sharing of information and discussion. I don't want the front page to consist of highly opinionated political posts, since their reasoning behind /r/popular was to "filter out" focused political groups.
If you want evidence, look at the internet archive time machine for reddit starting this past week, around the 17th of February.