In interviews with rapists, student pursues not-so-simple question: why?(npr.org)
npr.org
In interviews with rapists, student pursues not-so-simple question: why?
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/12/16/570827107/in-interviews-with-122-rapists-student-pursues-not-so-simple-question-why
70 comments
The Washington Post article on the same story has more detail and some of the researcher's ideas where the problem is https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/11...
The analysis is kinder to the rapists than the data.
They state that they believe that this ruins the woman's marital prospects forever, but that didn't stop them from doing it.
Even within their belief system, they are acting monstrously.
Interviewing them is a great idea, but the researchers should be open to the idea that the main problem is the boring, standard idea that violent criminals have little empathy for their victims, and little impulse control.
They state that they believe that this ruins the woman's marital prospects forever, but that didn't stop them from doing it.
Even within their belief system, they are acting monstrously.
Interviewing them is a great idea, but the researchers should be open to the idea that the main problem is the boring, standard idea that violent criminals have little empathy for their victims, and little impulse control.
You missed the interesting part. She also interviewed 65 convicted murderers, and most of them showed some remorse, while very few of the rapists did. There's more to this than violent criminals lacking empathy.
The researchers should be open to the idea that the main problem is the boring, standard idea that violent criminals have little empathy for their victims, and little impulse control.
A programming analogy would be like this is a bug in their code, and our current method of dealing with it is to kill their process or filter their "standard out" to avoid/ignore the unpleasant buggy output. What if instead, we could come to comprehend a deeper architecture problem that we could then prevent or fix by refactoring?
Agreed. I hate this trend of trying to mellow everything down to some harmless palatable cause. People rape because they are worthless scum who don't think about their victim's wellbeing. People murder because they don't value their victim's life. I don't need to justify their fucked up behaviour using some humane analysis of their psyche. Just lock them up and throw away the key.
This is a mentality that humans have had since the dawn of history. Not necessarily towards rape specifically, but to things the broader popular society finds morally reprehensible.
Your line of reasoning is totally normal for the human condition and has been used for thousands of years now. Here we are today without any lack of morally reprehensible problems. Don't you think it's time we changed our strategy and rose above this animalistic, purely instinctual nature? It's time we got out of this mess.
Your line of reasoning is totally normal for the human condition and has been used for thousands of years now. Here we are today without any lack of morally reprehensible problems. Don't you think it's time we changed our strategy and rose above this animalistic, purely instinctual nature? It's time we got out of this mess.
> Don't you think it's time we changed our strategy and rose above this animalistic, purely instinctual nature?
The poster's reaction is justified disgust toward someone who is clearly dangerous to his fellow humans.
Why should traditions that have served humanity well be cast aside because it is $CURRENTYEAR? The burden of proof is on those who would do otherwise, not the natural and obvious thing.
The poster's reaction is justified disgust toward someone who is clearly dangerous to his fellow humans.
Why should traditions that have served humanity well be cast aside because it is $CURRENTYEAR? The burden of proof is on those who would do otherwise, not the natural and obvious thing.
Are you misunderstanding this as a personal analysis to _understand_ the rapist personally? I don't think that's it -- she gave them numbers after all. At a population level, it's interesting to study.
Our brains are machines that we don't fully understand, it could be useful to discover why rapists rape. If you had lived one of those guys on the bus' life, would you have participated? Or are people like this born broken, never to be fixed, and we may as well throw away the key? It's a bit like Star Trek: Nemesis.
In some future if we could give a convicted rapist a pill that we scientifically know would prevent him from ever having a rape impulse again, would we accept him back into society? What if it was preventative?
Our brains are machines that we don't fully understand, it could be useful to discover why rapists rape. If you had lived one of those guys on the bus' life, would you have participated? Or are people like this born broken, never to be fixed, and we may as well throw away the key? It's a bit like Star Trek: Nemesis.
In some future if we could give a convicted rapist a pill that we scientifically know would prevent him from ever having a rape impulse again, would we accept him back into society? What if it was preventative?
You're making a common mistake. Understanding something is not the same as justifying or accepting it.
Why does an analysis of their psyche have to result in a "justification" of what they've done? What if that analysis could uncover ways to teach people to think about their victims or at least to think about the potential consequences - and thus prevent future rapes?
People who rape[fn:1] are definitely worthless scum who don't care about their victims wellbeing, and I got no issue with giving them the death penalty - however what if there was some harmeless palatable cause that could be fixed/prevented/managed? What if we could prevent rape?
I am not looking for such a course for the rapist sake, but to protect any future victims.
[fn:1] Not including, obviously, cases where they were both drunk or where one party later regretted it.
I am not looking for such a course for the rapist sake, but to protect any future victims.
[fn:1] Not including, obviously, cases where they were both drunk or where one party later regretted it.
This reminds me of the Netflix series Mindhunter, about the FBI doing the same with serial killers in the 70s. It's based on real life work. Well worth watching both for the complicated but well handled subject matter and for the direction (David Fincher) and performances.
For anyone doubting the 'morality' of this researc or presuming rapists are just vile apathetic scumbags and nothing more, go watch it or better yet read the real life story it's based on. This kind of research has saves hundreds of lives and prevented many men (mostly) from becoming serial killers. Let's hope this new research does the same for rapists.
For anyone doubting the 'morality' of this researc or presuming rapists are just vile apathetic scumbags and nothing more, go watch it or better yet read the real life story it's based on. This kind of research has saves hundreds of lives and prevented many men (mostly) from becoming serial killers. Let's hope this new research does the same for rapists.
A list of Madhumita Pandey's publications can be found at https://theconversation.com/profiles/madhumita-pandey-276284
What a disturbing article. I wouldn't have thought all the men were remorseless.
> she said she would only interview willing participants
They selected themselves. Remorseful ones, if any, may have chosen not to participate.
They selected themselves. Remorseful ones, if any, may have chosen not to participate.
But why would that only apply to rapists and not murderers? She found plenty of repentant murderers, according to the article.
Maybe sentencing differences are causing the selection bias. Remorseful rapists may be trying to avoid publicizing their convictions (with their plan being to reintegrate with society at a later time). The remorseful murderers may have all been serving life sentences.
> Remorseful ones, if any, may have chosen not to participate.
Conceivable, but then why were most of the murderers she interviewed remorseful? Why would remorseful murderers be willing to talk but not remorseful rapists?
Conceivable, but then why were most of the murderers she interviewed remorseful? Why would remorseful murderers be willing to talk but not remorseful rapists?
>> Remorseful ones, if any, may have chosen not to participate.
> Conceivable, but then why were most of the murderers she interviewed remorseful?
Maybe it's easier to become convicted accidental murderer than convicted accidental rapist?
Most people who killed didn't really want to do that. Maybe that's not the case for rapist.
> Conceivable, but then why were most of the murderers she interviewed remorseful?
Maybe it's easier to become convicted accidental murderer than convicted accidental rapist?
Most people who killed didn't really want to do that. Maybe that's not the case for rapist.
Maybe because the kind of remorse is different, with a different sigma attached? (just a thought)
In other words maybe "I murdered" is a different remorse (or lack of) than "I raped"?
In other words maybe "I murdered" is a different remorse (or lack of) than "I raped"?
Is there anywhere we can read the responses? I would be interested in hearing how they justify their actions and attitudes
It’s so terribly sad that there are men who think this way.
And the women who think this way, too?
A male friend-of-a-friend was raped by a woman, when he was in his late teens (he was older than the age of consent) more than 20 years ago. He went to the police station to complain. Walked in, said to the officer behind the desk that he wanted to make a complaint, he'd been raped by a woman.
The cop held his hand up for a high five, and said "Score!"
He reiterated that he wanted to lay a complaint, and the cop seemed surprised that he would want to. Eventually, after trying a few more times the complainant just left without having his complaint taken.
Rape doesn't just involve physical force, it can also be just pressuring the unwilling into sex, or coercing them into a sexual situation they're unwilling to be in - for example, outdoors, anal or period sex. You can see how easily a female could apply emotional pressure to get what she wants when the male is unwilling. Have you ever heard a woman accuse a male of being homosexual simply because he didn't want to do something she did?
I have.
A male friend-of-a-friend was raped by a woman, when he was in his late teens (he was older than the age of consent) more than 20 years ago. He went to the police station to complain. Walked in, said to the officer behind the desk that he wanted to make a complaint, he'd been raped by a woman.
The cop held his hand up for a high five, and said "Score!"
He reiterated that he wanted to lay a complaint, and the cop seemed surprised that he would want to. Eventually, after trying a few more times the complainant just left without having his complaint taken.
Rape doesn't just involve physical force, it can also be just pressuring the unwilling into sex, or coercing them into a sexual situation they're unwilling to be in - for example, outdoors, anal or period sex. You can see how easily a female could apply emotional pressure to get what she wants when the male is unwilling. Have you ever heard a woman accuse a male of being homosexual simply because he didn't want to do something she did?
I have.
I wonder if there's an analogous group of women that behave this way as well. The article didn't really dive into motivations, so I wonder how much of it is cultural and how much of it is related to general mental health. And if it is related to the latter, is it possibly a universal condition that also afflicts women as well, in such that it may not be sexual, but that small groups of women can have these predispositions to the worth, behavior, and attitudes towards men with little remorse for their ultimate actions against them.
You'll find that a lot of predators (serial killers, sexual predators) were abused as children. Poverty seems to be a factor, but that alone doesn't usually cause such a lack of remorse later in life. Something like extreme affluenza seems to cause it in some people, too. That's probably more about having control over someone else and being used to get your way, even being rewarded for it.
Wiki's got lots of information on the topic if you don't mind seeing how people can turn into animals.
Wiki's got lots of information on the topic if you don't mind seeing how people can turn into animals.
The poverty thing could well be sampling bias, I'm sure rich folks have a much easier time avoiding convictions.
The root cause (whether nature or nurture) seems to be a lack of empathy.
Could you detect empathetic capabilities with fMRI? If deficient, would you mandate treatment? Besides therapy, is there a treatment?
Could you detect empathetic capabilities with fMRI? If deficient, would you mandate treatment? Besides therapy, is there a treatment?
There are scientists who claim psychopathy can be detected on brain scans. And since 1-4% of the population are estimated to be psychopaths (most of which end up in prison, and the rest works their way up in society), this could well be a very impactful avenue of further research.
>an analogous group of women that behave this way as well
Not by action perhaps, but by inaction certainly. Sadly, there exist women who deny this behaviour or engage in the victim blame. I say this as a woman, I've experienced women saying in private that another woman "deserved" it. It's not a simple issue but I believe it is related to cognitive dissonance and finding a way to justify the prejudice a person has experienced in her or his own life. The patriarchy affects us all.
Not by action perhaps, but by inaction certainly. Sadly, there exist women who deny this behaviour or engage in the victim blame. I say this as a woman, I've experienced women saying in private that another woman "deserved" it. It's not a simple issue but I believe it is related to cognitive dissonance and finding a way to justify the prejudice a person has experienced in her or his own life. The patriarchy affects us all.
I would be interested to see results of similar studies compared across different cultures.
devereaux(7)
Keystone Light. Zhenka. Mr. Boston. There's your reasons for most cases of sexual assault on college campuses.
Has the actual paper been published yet? I'm wondering if she also tested them for IQ, blood lead levels, etc.
Given that the WaPo article says that many of them had only a third or fourth grade education, this strikes me as possibly just making fun of people with disabilities.
Given that the WaPo article says that many of them had only a third or fourth grade education, this strikes me as possibly just making fun of people with disabilities.
>Given that the WaPo article says that many of them had only a third or fourth grade education, this strikes me as possibly just making fun of people with disabilities.
When the topic is rape, you always go into these comments expecting some kind of reflexive criticism or minimisation but this is honestly one of the most bizarre manifestations of that yet.
When the topic is rape, you always go into these comments expecting some kind of reflexive criticism or minimisation but this is honestly one of the most bizarre manifestations of that yet.
This also strikes me as the American obsession about passing IQ tests in every single study.
Do you remember some other excuses he suggested in the past?
Do you remember some other excuses he suggested in the past?
> this is honestly one of the most bizarre manifestations of that yet.
I'm not familiar with the demographics of prisoners in India, so I'm just going off my knowledge of how the criminal justice system works in the US.
I'm not familiar with the demographics of prisoners in India, so I'm just going off my knowledge of how the criminal justice system works in the US.
They're working class Indians, probably mostly laborers. I'm not sure you can classify this group as disabled.
From my perspective I have to assume alienation from society allows these men to commit the crimes they do and remain remorseless. If you've lived a tough or unforgiving life in a society that doesn't care if you live or die, you won't necessarily show the same courtesy to anyone else. Why respect the social norms of a society that shows you no respect?
I'm not excusing their behavior either. This alienation is also what I think drives US mass shootings, drug abuse, and other social crimes. That's just my opinion though, I've little other than intuition to back up my stance.
From my perspective I have to assume alienation from society allows these men to commit the crimes they do and remain remorseless. If you've lived a tough or unforgiving life in a society that doesn't care if you live or die, you won't necessarily show the same courtesy to anyone else. Why respect the social norms of a society that shows you no respect?
I'm not excusing their behavior either. This alienation is also what I think drives US mass shootings, drug abuse, and other social crimes. That's just my opinion though, I've little other than intuition to back up my stance.
Exactly. "Screw this hellhole I'll litter if I want to it can't make this dump any worse" applies to non-victimless crimes too.
> this strikes me as possibly just making fun of people with disabilities
What about this is "making fun"? Did you mean to say that, by mentioning the education level, they're stigmatizing people with disabilities? Because there are millions of people around the world with no cognitive impairment who don't finish elementary school...
What about this is "making fun"? Did you mean to say that, by mentioning the education level, they're stigmatizing people with disabilities? Because there are millions of people around the world with no cognitive impairment who don't finish elementary school...
I meant sentences like:
> Pandey had a burning need to know what these rapists were thinking. She decided to ask the rapists themselves.
> Their utter lack of remorse came as a surprise to her.
> She saw a pattern of "cognitive distortion" — they had created their own version of the crime that allowed them to justify their actions.
Statements like that imply a certain level of cognitive capacity and agency, which maybe these inmates have, but if so that isn't demonstrated anywhere in the article. All I'm saying is that the implications of the research are very different depending on whether these folks are upper middle class, college educated with normal IQ, EQ, etc., versus if half of them have severe lead poisoning or TBIs or whatever.
> Pandey had a burning need to know what these rapists were thinking. She decided to ask the rapists themselves.
> Their utter lack of remorse came as a surprise to her.
> She saw a pattern of "cognitive distortion" — they had created their own version of the crime that allowed them to justify their actions.
Statements like that imply a certain level of cognitive capacity and agency, which maybe these inmates have, but if so that isn't demonstrated anywhere in the article. All I'm saying is that the implications of the research are very different depending on whether these folks are upper middle class, college educated with normal IQ, EQ, etc., versus if half of them have severe lead poisoning or TBIs or whatever.
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