New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe(wsj.com)
wsj.com
New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-tech-centers-sprout-in-europe-1520337602
138 comments
How affordable is it? Always wanted to spend some time in Scotland, and love the idea of checking out a tech scene.
Of the cities mentioned it's the only one I would actually consider to live. Perhaps Lisbon but I never visited it. Probably working for a local wage makes it a lot less romantic.
You should give Porto a look. Way more romantic than Lisbon and a more thriving tech/startup scene.
Or Edinburgh in the summer, Porto the rest of the year. :)
I am based at Codebase [0] in Edinburgh, a tech incubator office complex, with lots of startups based there as well as co-working and hot-desking spaces, where I work at a cloud orchestration company [1] where I am building a new blockchain network infrastructure for another company, [2] also based there. There's a lot of innovation going on here, definitely. Oh, and the Linux Foundation is holding the Open Source Summit 2018 conference [3] here later this year, too!
0. https://www.thisiscodebase.com/
1. https://cloudsoft.io/
2. https://blockchaintp.com/
3. https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/open-source-summit...
0. https://www.thisiscodebase.com/
1. https://cloudsoft.io/
2. https://blockchaintp.com/
3. https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/open-source-summit...
Not to mention the Fringe in August (although I imagine if you live or work centrally it can be quite annoying).
Edinburgh is fantastic and definitely a great place to live and work!
I work just a little north in Dundee. A great little city with a growing reputation[1]. If you're ever looking for a job in the games industry there are lots of companies based in the city. They tend to be smaller indy places although there are some larger companies too.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-01-02/where-to-...
I work just a little north in Dundee. A great little city with a growing reputation[1]. If you're ever looking for a job in the games industry there are lots of companies based in the city. They tend to be smaller indy places although there are some larger companies too.
[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-01-02/where-to-...
I had been optimistic about Krakow becoming a big tech hub, but the Polish government's shift toward authoritarianism makes that less likely.
Also the air quality is rather terrible.
It's a sad state of affairs in major Polish cities. Out of the 4 major tech hubs: Warsaw, Krakow, Wroclaw, 3-city (Gdansk/Sopot/Gdynia which form one long city) air is terrible in all with the exception of 3-city. Even there it's not so rosy (depends on the area, some are very clean, some not so much but air pollution stations are too sparse to show it). I moved out because of it and I wouldn't advise anyone to live in Poland (outside 3-city) if they have other options. It's not worth it to risk your health.
The situation is terrible for many reasons but major 2 are ancient coal/junk heating (people won't upgrade to eco-friendly heating because most of them are dirty poor and their main problem is to find a cheaper coal substitute for next winter) and Germans flooding us with used diesel cars with particulate filters long not working (or removed). There is a lot of talk about CO2 but this is long term danger while used diesel cars are poisoning us right now at massive scale.
The situation is terrible for many reasons but major 2 are ancient coal/junk heating (people won't upgrade to eco-friendly heating because most of them are dirty poor and their main problem is to find a cheaper coal substitute for next winter) and Germans flooding us with used diesel cars with particulate filters long not working (or removed). There is a lot of talk about CO2 but this is long term danger while used diesel cars are poisoning us right now at massive scale.
How the Germans flood you with these diesels? Do they drop their used car right across the border or is it organized at state level? And why they take out particle filters before that?
It is literally the worst in Europe at the moment. It's a huge issue over there.
In Krakow? Has it changed a lot in the past years? I was there in 2014 and the air was great.
I spent some time in Krakow and it has horrible air quality. Summer feels normal like any other city, but certain times during the winter it's difficult to see due to the smog. See the below video for reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7nxugvTmJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7nxugvTmJo
Wow darn I'm never throwing the stone at China again, seeing this in Europe, so close to home !
Were you in summer? The problem with air pollution is rather seasonal and while in warmer months it's not an issue, winters are terrible.
Source: I lived in Kraków for 4 years.
Source: I lived in Kraków for 4 years.
Yeah I was, so that was probably it.
It's so bad that Dynatrace, who is hiring in Gdańsk (another Polish city), is trying to convince devs from Kraków to move there with this: http://zmiensrodowisko.pl/
In the whole area. Where I spent time people still use coal heating and you had garbage pick up once a week (and you had to tip), so even tho burning garbage in the stove is illegal you surely knew when a neighbor was doing it. Part of my coming back home culture shock was not seeing cars covered in sooth.
Smarter neighbors segregate their garbage. For burning during the day, and for burning during the night.
Our startup is split between Silicon Valley and Poland. I would say the biggest problem with the current government are taxes. Desperate to fund the socialist policy of "500+", the government changes the "interpretation" of the current tax code. Suddenly programmers are taxed at a higher rate: e.g. https://www.wykop.pl/link/4196755/informatycy-nie-moga-byc-p... . Besides that, the government tries to be friendly to tech startups.
Another problem is GDPR. It sounds like the life of European startups is going to get much harder.
One potential upside is EU funding. Having used both VC and EU funding I am not sure if it's really worth it, even if it's equity free.
Another problem is GDPR. It sounds like the life of European startups is going to get much harder.
One potential upside is EU funding. Having used both VC and EU funding I am not sure if it's really worth it, even if it's equity free.
Polish tax code and adjudication has been a mess for a very long time. The actual rates have not changed, interpretations do change constantly and you can't get a binding one. There is no such thing. You can officially request some advice from the ministry explaining what the dues are in your case, but what this says is not binding for the revenue service if they choose not to refrain from harassing you with their creative interpretations. Combined with lack of precedence law every issue becomes a potential court gamble (and it is a gamble) if not resolved amicably. That this is new is just hot air about the current government (despicable for other good reasons).
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> Polish government's shift toward authoritarianism makes that less likely.
In case of Krakow I would rather worry about the awful air pollution. What you hear about Polish politics is a political war resulting with plenty of nonsense media content produced.
In case of Krakow I would rather worry about the awful air pollution. What you hear about Polish politics is a political war resulting with plenty of nonsense media content produced.
Agreed. Krakow, Poznan, many cities in Poland are full of talented young people and they produce great stuff. But the current line of the Polish government will make it a less than ideal place for investment.
I prefer to make less money than to live in a multicutural paradise like in the west.
Having visited recently and met with several tech companies and western firms utilising it I'd say it is already a tech hub, and has a bright future. The sheer number of graduates being produced, and the proven ability to scale up operations there makes it really attractive.
It is also a lovely city to visit, which is always worth bearing in mind when it comes to where companies might open a satellite office...
It is also a lovely city to visit, which is always worth bearing in mind when it comes to where companies might open a satellite office...
The sheer number of graduates being produced
At the diploma mills that are Polish universities. Google was unable to scale up in Poland for a decade. They opted for creating marketing & accounting offices in several Polish workforce hubs, while the man who organized Krakow tech office has resigned in frustration over mainship's final shelving of any plans for expansion in that space. Likewise the Warsaw tech office is mainly for the few smart people who don't want to leave for family reasons.
Students from the very few quality CS programmes emigrate in droves. Polish ministry keeps record of graduates entering national workforce and from the good programmes as much as 80% are missing.
Outside these, quality quickly falls off a cliff, even from the same school (Krakow local AGH has no less than 5 departments offering CS degrees).
Just last month a typical scandal in academic circles emerged where former president (rektor) of AGH advised a PhD thesis in CS that was plagiarized from another that itself turned out to be fishy. Moreover the reviewers from the more prestigious Jagiellonian University plagiarized verbatim their own reviews (and they were reviewers of both somehow). Things happen, but the main scandal was the body overseeing higher ed in Poland refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They've set up schools there to be diploma mills in the first place.
At the diploma mills that are Polish universities. Google was unable to scale up in Poland for a decade. They opted for creating marketing & accounting offices in several Polish workforce hubs, while the man who organized Krakow tech office has resigned in frustration over mainship's final shelving of any plans for expansion in that space. Likewise the Warsaw tech office is mainly for the few smart people who don't want to leave for family reasons.
Students from the very few quality CS programmes emigrate in droves. Polish ministry keeps record of graduates entering national workforce and from the good programmes as much as 80% are missing.
Outside these, quality quickly falls off a cliff, even from the same school (Krakow local AGH has no less than 5 departments offering CS degrees).
Just last month a typical scandal in academic circles emerged where former president (rektor) of AGH advised a PhD thesis in CS that was plagiarized from another that itself turned out to be fishy. Moreover the reviewers from the more prestigious Jagiellonian University plagiarized verbatim their own reviews (and they were reviewers of both somehow). Things happen, but the main scandal was the body overseeing higher ed in Poland refused to acknowledge any wrongdoing. They've set up schools there to be diploma mills in the first place.
I've had pretty amazing experience working with polish developers and designers. Definitely very top notch. Found them through Github mostly. Romanians, Belarussian and Bulgarians also turned out to be smart and hard working.
They are amazing and one of, no, in fact the best in the world, both Poles and Russians. But that's a selection bias. Don't expect to drop there and find streets overflowing with such people eager to work for you in the actual Poland and Russia. The best already found their cozy spots and are not trading them for your offer whatever it might be (and let's face it: you're not going there after the talent but a cheaper talent), given their fears and insecurity (and exploitation) of the local labour market. Or otherwise, found their way out of the country or are actively looking (will I get promoted to your UK HQ in a year or two?).
> Google was unable to scale up in Poland for a decade.
AFAIK, the problem with Krakow was not with lack of good programmers, but organizational setup - too many PAs in too small office.
AFAIK, the problem with Krakow was not with lack of good programmers, but organizational setup - too many PAs in too small office.
Offices are not an issue in Krakow, there is oversupply and the space is cheap. What I heard there is a lot of sour grapes and back-and-forth blame (still) going on about that Krakow failure. But what is clear for a bystander: the office stayed at the same headcount since being opened. They changed buildings and were mulling over expansion for many years. Some Warsaw people were generously compensated to move Krakow, then the other way, then the manager jumped ship prompting a wave, and then management gave up on Krakow entirely. And Warsaw doesn't grow either. Facebook too explored growing a tech branch in Warsaw and backed up. Samsung decided to make a sweatshop approach, they are big, pay peanuts even for Poland and have a lot of churn. There is a large, established for decades and recently quickly growing Intel office in Gdansk, that's where all the buggy drivers allegedly come from.
My previous post might have been confusing - it was a problem with too many PAs relative to number of people, not with the office space size.
Are the devs/QA english speaking or just the managers ?!
No we not speaking English. /s
english is typically taught in primary school to everyone
While I don't want to disagree with you about that locale, it's also taught here in Japan, and the English level is abhorebt. (Source: part time English teacher in Japan in my free time, taught every level from kindergarten to senior highschool).
My point being, teaching from an early age, while is an advantage, does not necessarily mean a good comprehension or ability to speak.
My point being, teaching from an early age, while is an advantage, does not necessarily mean a good comprehension or ability to speak.
I had a chat with a bunch of Japanese university students last month. They told me the same thing. They told me their English classes weren't too bad when it came to grammar, but they hardly ever practiced speaking the language. I can't even imagine learning a language without speaking it!
Edit: sausage fingers
Edit: sausage fingers
Every recent Polish graduate will speak decent English, they'll speak it especially well if they studied something technical where the bulk of the material being published is being done in English (CS/software engineering).
The Polish people I've worked with (in the US, but recently moved from Poland) speak passable English. Their grammar hasn't been very good, but they are able to understand everything as far as I could tell. Definitely not as fluent as Germans or Scandinavians though.
From my own experience working in Poland (albeit in Warsaw) engineers usually communicate better in English than their managers.
I agree about it being a lovely city to visit. But as someone in the startup scene in Berlin, I think many here would be hesitant to open a satellite office there, simply to avoid inviting cultural conflict between the typical Berlin startup's lefty and cosmopolitan workforce and increasingly culturally conservative Polish attitudes.
Would you prefer your dolce grande latte with brown sugar or aspartame, Sir? Look, some eastern Europeans are stealing your fixed-gear bicycle!
Make fun of hipsters all you like, heck it's not hard. But that won't change the fact that hipsters, a cultural group like any other, control a big chunk of the tech world, especially in Berlin. Meaning that you flippantly ignore their cultural preferences at your own peril.
I have no idea who the hipsters are. An Anglosphere subculture?
Nothing Anglosphere about hipsterism. Plenty of that from Southern Europe and East Asia. A typical member is youngish (born early 1980 and forward), secular, educated in tech, media, the arts, sometimes (social) science, left-leaning, with an urban and transnational worldview. I think honestly it's more of a social and economic class than a subculture. It's a new word for "intelligentsia".
I'd say they're much less radical than Trump. Does Trump make America a bad place for tech? I don't think he has impacted the SV ecosystem much for example.
America has enormous pre-existing advantages, the effect of electing a hostile government is not equivalent to the same in Poland.
The figures in the article, representing the drop, are 27% above 2012 levels. For science & engineering the student numbers are 46% higher than 2012. So much for that premise.
The decline shown is between 2016 and 2017. Trump wasn't President. Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.
There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high. Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.
The decline shown is between 2016 and 2017. Trump wasn't President. Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.
There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high. Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.
> The decline shown is between 2016 and 2017. Trump wasn't President.
Trump was, in fact, President well before the 16 April — 15 November period covered for the 2017 data.
> Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.
But would have had ample time to be reconsidered after he won, and even after the initial implementation of the travel ban.
> There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high
That was true I've the 2012–2016 period of increase, too, it didn't change between 2016 and 2017.
> Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.
That also didn't dramatically change between 2016 and 2017.
What did dramatically change between 2016 and 2017 was the visible attitude of the U.S. public and government to foreigners.
Trump was, in fact, President well before the 16 April — 15 November period covered for the 2017 data.
> Any decisions to attend in the US would have been considered well before it was even clear he would have a serious chance of winning.
But would have had ample time to be reconsidered after he won, and even after the initial implementation of the travel ban.
> There are two likely reasons for that dip. First, the cost of university education in the US is quite high
That was true I've the 2012–2016 period of increase, too, it didn't change between 2016 and 2017.
> Second and in tandem with the first issue, countries like China that formerly would have sent a lot of students to the US, increasingly have the education systems and infrastructure - along with the post education opportunities - in place to retain their own talent pools.
That also didn't dramatically change between 2016 and 2017.
What did dramatically change between 2016 and 2017 was the visible attitude of the U.S. public and government to foreigners.
> Does Trump make America a bad place for tech?
Yes?
Yes?
Krakow thrives under the so-called "authoritarian" (actually very mundane and liberal) government. The conditions for the growth of the tech sector are there, and most people working in it agree that they are better off than they were a couple of years ago and it's still getting progressively better.
Re: Polish government, I wouldn't trust the news hype on "authoritarianism" at all - IMHO, these "news" are largely just some powerful people doing dirty politics
It is a sentiment shared by the EU though. The Polish government's approach to dismantling the trias politica is worrying, to say the least:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/polish-mps-pas...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/polish-mps-pas...
As someone descended partially from Jews from that area, calling the attempted rewriting of some very personal and painful history "hype" strikes me as malicious and insulting.
Abundance of highly skilled engineers willing to work for low rates make a perfect setting for large consulting (and others) companies in Lisbon (and probably other cities mentioned in the article).
Yes, the city is beautiful but don't expect high paying jobs. I know a couple of YC-backed startups in Lisbon that get away with paying their software engineers around 24-30K euros per year (post-tax).
Yes, the city is beautiful but don't expect high paying jobs. I know a couple of YC-backed startups in Lisbon that get away with paying their software engineers around 24-30K euros per year (post-tax).
Bear in mind that the fully-loaded cost for an employee in Lisbon will be ~2x take-home pay, meaning the low end of your range translates to a net salary of 1K euro/month. Which is absolutely in the ballpark for a new grad.
It doesn't go up much, either. An average senior engineer might cost 40K euro/year and the absolute cream of the crop can be had for 100-150 K euro/year.
This for engineers from a top school that you can expect to be fluent in english and 5 time zones away from the east coast. It's a great place to have a second office.
It doesn't go up much, either. An average senior engineer might cost 40K euro/year and the absolute cream of the crop can be had for 100-150 K euro/year.
This for engineers from a top school that you can expect to be fluent in english and 5 time zones away from the east coast. It's a great place to have a second office.
>24-30k per year
that's better than the average in Portugal.
If you go to USA working at a job getting $100k a year you probably pay 30k or more in taxes.
You're forgetting the cost of living.
that's better than the average in Portugal.
If you go to USA working at a job getting $100k a year you probably pay 30k or more in taxes.
You're forgetting the cost of living.
Even factoring the cost of living, if you're getting 1500€ after tax in Lisbon (which is an excellent salary for Portugal), and you pay rent on room in a shared house (~400€) you're not going to be saving much. Plus, an iPhone costs the same in Portugal as in the USA, if not more.
The good devs in Europe are being hired as cheaper alternatives do the crazy expensive devs in SF/NY/London, and they are as good. If you have a couple of years experience and are earning 1.5 post tax, and you know what hacker news is you are doing it wrong.
Please tell me how I do it right, then, 'cause that's exactly what I'm seeing.
That paying much more would still be cheaper to them is irrelevant; in SF/NY/LN they have competition for developers, in Lisbon the few that made the jump are still the top dogs.
That paying much more would still be cheaper to them is irrelevant; in SF/NY/LN they have competition for developers, in Lisbon the few that made the jump are still the top dogs.
It depends on your skillset, but either work for a company that has its HQ in other location (and can afford to pay more) or work for a remote company.
mail me if you like, we can chat a bit more.
mail me if you like, we can chat a bit more.
Thanks, I'd love to talk more! You don't have your email visible, though (the email field is hidden, you have to copy it to the "about" field).
Mine is [email protected], if you prefer to avoid posting yours.
Mine is [email protected], if you prefer to avoid posting yours.
I can't edit this on my phone but I meant 12-16k post tax.
I multiplied 1000,0 by 12 and somehow and got 24.
I multiplied 1000,0 by 12 and somehow and got 24.
Now all I need is for wages to be actually attractive in Lisbon, given the rising rents.
You mean like Berlin, where you get max. 36k€ a year for Full Stack Dev and pay 13k€ for Rent? I think the main reason for Cities in Europe become tech hubs is the extreme low cost for Devs and other tech people.
Oh come on, you can't even get a junior for less than 45k in Berlin. Most of my professional circle are well over 60, 70. If you're getting 36 as a (good) full stack I'd seriously recommend switching jobs.
edit: do you mean net salary?
edit: do you mean net salary?
New grads can get 50k in Berlin. You'd be an idiot to move there for less than 60-70k these days. I'm constantly hit up by recruiters who're trying to lure me back for 80-90k.
Talked with dozens of Berlin's startups. I don't think that any of them offered more than 55-60k for mid/senior dev roles. Some were trying even to lowball below 50k. Businesses paying more flood the candidates with quizzes, assignments, and give post-contractual non-compete to sign. They suck the sweet labor desperation dry.
Are you exaggerating or serious? Would it be too difficult to live there if I make ~45k?
The lowest junior engineer job grade at my previous company started at 50k + 8% bonus, and salaries went up to 90k base + 15% bonus for a principal engineer, with a pretty linear progression for the titles in between (mid-level, senior, lead). This company pays above average, but it's not the best paying in town, not even close. There are few ones (Amazon, eBay, SAP, car makers... even a few startups with deep pockets) that pay more than that.
If single, you will have a blast in Berlin with 45k. If you're moving with a dependent, that's a bit tight (as a newcomer, you will never find the best deals regarding accommodation, there's a fair supply of newly built apartments in Berlin, but they aren't cheap).
If single, you will have a blast in Berlin with 45k. If you're moving with a dependent, that's a bit tight (as a newcomer, you will never find the best deals regarding accommodation, there's a fair supply of newly built apartments in Berlin, but they aren't cheap).
That's an exaggeration. Most salaries are places in the 50-60k range and if you are a senior you'll get a salary from 60-70k.
As a new grad/junior, you'll be getting around 40-45k.
45k/year is enough for a single person or even a couple living more frugal.
45k/year is enough for a single person or even a couple living more frugal.
It's bad here but it's not nearly that bad. If you're a good full stack dev you can easily make 50k, and 9k rent+utilities yearly will buy you a very reasonable lifestyle.
Sounds a lot like Amsterdam to me. I always thought German speaking countries valued engineers more. But perhaps it's just the Swiss?
In Germany there are Places where you get paid very well, like Munich or Hamburg. But Berlin is like the Cheap and hyped City where you can pay less and find good employees who are willing to pay high rent, sometimes half of the monthly earnings, only to work for a Startup or a Big Name Company.
In Berlin the salary/cost of living ratio is way better than Munich or Frankfurt.
Have a look on Numbeo Cost of living comparison [1]
[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
Those numbers feel really off.
13k/year rent means ~1100 € monthly rent. That's the average rent for a nice apartment in a nice area. If you're making 36k € yearly salary then it might make more sense to live in a shared room for 400/month or get a better (normal) paid job.
36K euros a year "Brut" (before social security) was my starting salary in the Paris area. I know that Berlin is a little bit cheaper (in term of rent) than Paris but I would expect it to be about the same as Paris in term of salary.
For information in Paris, currently I'm at ~50K a year "Brut", which means ~35K a year "Net" ("go home" salary).
I'm costing ~75K per year to my employer in term of salary (there are taxes on his side to).
My rent, for a small flat (22 square meters) in Paris is around 10K per year.
My taxes are around 6K per year.
I'm an SRE/software engineer with ~8 years experience.
For information in Paris, currently I'm at ~50K a year "Brut", which means ~35K a year "Net" ("go home" salary).
I'm costing ~75K per year to my employer in term of salary (there are taxes on his side to).
My rent, for a small flat (22 square meters) in Paris is around 10K per year.
My taxes are around 6K per year.
I'm an SRE/software engineer with ~8 years experience.
So in the end including your taxes, you have 29k to live with (19k if you remove the rent) while costing 75k to your employer.
Ladies and gentlemen of the world, this is what is costs to have our (indeed very nice) social security/health insurance !
Ladies and gentlemen of the world, this is what is costs to have our (indeed very nice) social security/health insurance !
You should get better at negotiation and/or with your skills. Many companies struggle to hire any dev below 50K.
> “You might say every company is a tech company now,” said Tom Carroll, European head of corporate research at real-estate services firm JLL.
Where 'tech' is probably to be understood as 'relying heavily on software'.
Where 'tech' is probably to be understood as 'relying heavily on software'.
I'm surprised to see Edinburgh, when I graduated in Glasgow 10 years ago, me and my fellow students had to find jobs in the London area.
Has the situation changed so much ?
I wouldn't argue it has changed hugely in that time frame, but there have been some developments - notably Amazon now have a development center in the city.
> me and my fellow students had to find jobs in the London area
This is arguably still true of most any career path you care to choose in the UK - the UK economy in geographic terms is so heavily slanted to the South East/London, especially for "professional" type careers.
> me and my fellow students had to find jobs in the London area
This is arguably still true of most any career path you care to choose in the UK - the UK economy in geographic terms is so heavily slanted to the South East/London, especially for "professional" type careers.
As someone who graduated from the University of Glasgow in 2014, those from my year (and those who did an MSci, graduating in 2015) who've remained in Glasgow (that I'm aware of) mostly work at one of two places: JPMorgan (who have a large tech centre in the city) and Skyscanner.
> Skyscanner
What's their product exactly? In terms of flight search ITA's Matrix beats them IMO.
What's their product exactly? In terms of flight search ITA's Matrix beats them IMO.
I hope they are real tech centers, and not centers where investors can pour money into hyped up IT products.
> centers where investors can pour money into hyped up IT products
We don't have these in EU. More like centers where the profits are sucked out from the cheap and desperate labor.
We don't have these in EU. More like centers where the profits are sucked out from the cheap and desperate labor.
Nothing for Amsterdam or Eindhoven?
Also, they seem to mean 'software' not 'tech'. But sure.
Also, they seem to mean 'software' not 'tech'. But sure.
Nice to see Lisbon on the list.
It's going to be a pity to see that beautiful city disappear due to startupgentrificageddon.
Depends on how it's handled. If it's bastardized with US companies coming in to exploit the existing low salaries and then suppress them by co-ordinating and fighting to bring in others from other low-paid countries, then yes it's likely going to be ruinous to it.
If it's a small, European centric scene, by Europeans and for Europeans which grows organically outward then it stands a chance to enrich the city.
Personally I'm not much of an advocate for Europe welcoming SV folks and their VC masters in.
If it's a small, European centric scene, by Europeans and for Europeans which grows organically outward then it stands a chance to enrich the city.
Personally I'm not much of an advocate for Europe welcoming SV folks and their VC masters in.
Fully agree, but we already have quite a few problems there, not sure if startupfication will make it much worse.
I see the positive side of keeping people there instead of having to try their luck abroad.
Actually I would like to see all district capitals enjoy startup fever, specially the inner country ones.
I see the positive side of keeping people there instead of having to try their luck abroad.
Actually I would like to see all district capitals enjoy startup fever, specially the inner country ones.
I'm glad that both cities, Poland and Kraków, are popular. The journalist
should learn how to read a map, though.
Ort you should learn to read, period. They’re just specifying the country, not including it in the list. They do it even in London, England.
> They’re just specifying the country, not including it in the list.
Yeah, no, not quite. Only one city got that treatment, so it's not an invalid interpretation. The alternative to the journalist who cannot read a map is that the journalist should learn how to write, but either way it's an error of WSJ.
Yeah, no, not quite. Only one city got that treatment, so it's not an invalid interpretation. The alternative to the journalist who cannot read a map is that the journalist should learn how to write, but either way it's an error of WSJ.
> Lisbon, Kraków, Poland, and Edinburgh are among the cities that have become popular for the industry
Since when Poland is a city?
Since when Poland is a city?
They may have been trying to specify it, like [Lisbon], [Kraków, Poland], [Edinburgh]. They're readers may have literally not heard of Kraków before and need that. Unfortunately, the English language uses the comma for multiple purposes so you get messes like that headline.
I think they could have used a semicolon instead, as in "Lisbon; Kraków, Poland; Edinburgh are ...".
There's a village in Christmas Island, Kiribati, by that name.
I guess Kraków just isn’t there for name recognition yet? Reordering the sentence would have made the overloaded commas a lot clearer.
They did the same to Vilnius though
Apparently also not well-known enough. But by what criteria, I have no idea...
1795. But it's not in Europe.
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Paywall skip: http://archive.is/9O1sv
Not very much detail on Edinburgh, just mentions Brainnwave (sic) and not Skyscanner. It's a very cultural but also fairly expensive city. Perhaps people will start moving into startup space round about the gentrification of Leith or the space vacated by RBS.
Not very much detail on Edinburgh, just mentions Brainnwave (sic) and not Skyscanner. It's a very cultural but also fairly expensive city. Perhaps people will start moving into startup space round about the gentrification of Leith or the space vacated by RBS.
Expensive yes but a survey the other year had it as the best city in the UK for disposable incomes, an average of £800 per month. Probably in part due to the sizeable financial and legal sectors here. Given the fairly stiff competition for developers in the central belt of Scotland my (biased!) opinion is it is one of the best places to live in the UK, especially if you have, or are planning, a family.
Oh, I'm very fond of it myself, especially since I moved from Cambridge which was far more expensive! I'm still trying to get a good feel for market depth. Everyone wants frontend web devs it seems.
The question we have to ask is: what classifies as a tech hub/center?
Can anyone comment on the taxation situation?
I mean, it may not be very interesting in the beginning when the earnings are not very far from zero, but as the startup grows, and the stock incentives become more tangible, it's becoming relevant. I was personally looking at Barcelona once but the moment I looked at how much taxes they pay, I dropped the idea.
I mean, it may not be very interesting in the beginning when the earnings are not very far from zero, but as the startup grows, and the stock incentives become more tangible, it's becoming relevant. I was personally looking at Barcelona once but the moment I looked at how much taxes they pay, I dropped the idea.
I don't think taxes in the US are much lower than in Europe, as most people seem to assume e.g. here's a comparison which puts them close to the same, but note that it excludes property tax, which is pretty high in the US:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pa...
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pa...
A weird comparison. I wonder where he took the numbers from.
I can tell from experience that the Australian taxation authorities make the US taxation authorities look like a gift-giving Santa. I also dealt extensively with Europe, and Europe is by far worse than Australia in that respect. (A note to the dear Americans, I am not an American who went to Australia, it's the other way around.)
And then they mix in mandatory pension contributions for some, which makes the comparison even weirder.
Also note that this comparison is for long-term residents, not for expats or entrepreneurs that are there for a few years and may not be as interested in the social programs.
I can tell from experience that the Australian taxation authorities make the US taxation authorities look like a gift-giving Santa. I also dealt extensively with Europe, and Europe is by far worse than Australia in that respect. (A note to the dear Americans, I am not an American who went to Australia, it's the other way around.)
And then they mix in mandatory pension contributions for some, which makes the comparison even weirder.
Also note that this comparison is for long-term residents, not for expats or entrepreneurs that are there for a few years and may not be as interested in the social programs.
You'll pay more in taxes, but there is universal healthcare available free at the point of delivery. So taxes might be higher here, but you and your employees will access to some of the best healthcare in the world.
I do not think taxation should get singled out as a deciding factor where to setup a business, but could be considered in the round with all the other operational costs.
Low taxes might seem good, but if the key services are non-existent or corrupt, then your costs of operation will be significantly higher than in a place that has high(er) taxes, but civil society is run efficiently.
I do not think taxation should get singled out as a deciding factor where to setup a business, but could be considered in the round with all the other operational costs.
Low taxes might seem good, but if the key services are non-existent or corrupt, then your costs of operation will be significantly higher than in a place that has high(er) taxes, but civil society is run efficiently.
> I do not think taxation should get singled out as a deciding factor where to setup a business, but could be considered in the round with all the other operational costs.
Simple math. Say, if your venture succeeds, you net a lump sum of, say, $300K - $500K? Plus, in the advanced stages, you'll be paying yourself around $80K - $100K p.a., which falls in the high tax bracket everywhere. The difference between high taxes and low taxes may make a difference between you being able to buy a new home for cash or not.
If you're planning to spend a few years to have fun and immerse in a different culture and believe your venture is likely to fail, sure. If you are there to make money, think again.
Of course, it's not the primary consideration. The primary consideration should be whether there is a market for your products and services.
> Low taxes might seem good, but if the key services are non-existent or corrupt, then your costs of operation will be significantly higher than in a place that has high(er) taxes, but civil society is run efficiently.
That's not necessarily how things work. I live in Singapore now, where the income tax is in single digits and the foreign sources of income are not even taxed, so if you're not an American, you can have your passive income tax-free. The key services are anything but non-existent or corrupt.
Simple math. Say, if your venture succeeds, you net a lump sum of, say, $300K - $500K? Plus, in the advanced stages, you'll be paying yourself around $80K - $100K p.a., which falls in the high tax bracket everywhere. The difference between high taxes and low taxes may make a difference between you being able to buy a new home for cash or not.
If you're planning to spend a few years to have fun and immerse in a different culture and believe your venture is likely to fail, sure. If you are there to make money, think again.
Of course, it's not the primary consideration. The primary consideration should be whether there is a market for your products and services.
> Low taxes might seem good, but if the key services are non-existent or corrupt, then your costs of operation will be significantly higher than in a place that has high(er) taxes, but civil society is run efficiently.
That's not necessarily how things work. I live in Singapore now, where the income tax is in single digits and the foreign sources of income are not even taxed, so if you're not an American, you can have your passive income tax-free. The key services are anything but non-existent or corrupt.
I also had a look on what Barcelona has to offer, before their little rebellion. But I would have had to accept 50% less money than in Germany according to Glassdoor. And renting there is almost as expensive as here.
For the UK, the magic words are "EMI scheme" https://www.magma.co.uk/enterprise-management-incentive-sche...
Options received under an EMI scheme are tax-free, although you may eventually have to pay capital gains tax at time of exercise.
Options received under an EMI scheme are tax-free, although you may eventually have to pay capital gains tax at time of exercise.
So is the Lisbon tech startup scene active? I like the city a lot and was thinking about moving there.
What about language barrier? Do people speak English?
What about language barrier? Do people speak English?
English speaking ability is pretty good and widespread in Portugal. In Spain, however, it's the opposite.
Yes, I've been to tech meetups there. They asked if there were non-Portuguese speaking folks in attendance and all presenters used English.
The majority of people in Lisbon under 40yo speak English to a good level. In a tech "setting" English level would be even higher.
Lisbon? I've heard only horror stories about the rent/salary ratio. Portuguese emigrate in volumes comparable to Poles/Romanians and there is a reason for this.
Krakow? If you fancy working at the complete bottom of the corporate hierarchy at IBM/Capgemini/Accenture/etc, or for some Scandinavian/German cheapskates. Rents went through the roof as well.
Krakow? If you fancy working at the complete bottom of the corporate hierarchy at IBM/Capgemini/Accenture/etc, or for some Scandinavian/German cheapskates. Rents went through the roof as well.
I think you're too harsh. Akamai, Oracle, Samsung, UBS, HSBC and plenty of other well-known companies have R&D centres in Krakow. Even Google had been there but their office was merged with the Warsaw one a few years ago.
Obviously, if you're an aspiring manager you'd be better off working in the corporate HQ but from a developer's POV it's a decent city to work.
Tech salaries are getting bimodal, If you are on the right (pun intended) side of the curve you will be fine. you will end up working for a foreign company or remoting.
I do hope rent goes down, it's fugly to see working class people being driven out of the city...
I do hope rent goes down, it's fugly to see working class people being driven out of the city...
In term Rent/Salary ratio how it looks? In US it could be as much as 1/2 or more common 1/3 for a 2 bedroom residence.
Rent is Lisbon is getting very expensive and salaries don't closely follow that trend. However, the article is right about many corporations coming here to setup global shared services for operations and support desks.
> Portuguese emigrate in volumes comparable to Poles/Romanians and there is a reason for this.
This used to be the case up until a few years ago but having spoken with many young Portuguese there's a serious resurgence of tech and arts scenes.
This used to be the case up until a few years ago but having spoken with many young Portuguese there's a serious resurgence of tech and arts scenes.
There is, but since I live abroad the community on my region has been increasing quite a lot in the last 10 years, with very few willing to return.
I was extremely impressed by Budapest and Bratislava on a recent trip to Europe.
I'm surprised the article doesn't mention either of them by name, but I suppose if, as the article states, "Every company is a tech company now”, then any city with a half-decent economy is a tech city now.
I'm surprised the article doesn't mention either of them by name, but I suppose if, as the article states, "Every company is a tech company now”, then any city with a half-decent economy is a tech city now.
I suspect Budapest's tech companies exist because there's a very unusual market in Hungary due to being a language isolate. I saw lots of homegrown companies and ways of doing things of all types there.
Bratislava on the other hand looks like it's being rebuilt almost from the ground up, has a reasonable tech scene (even hosts demoscene parties!) and also has some of the friendliest people I've ever met anywhere. Eset seems to be the anchor company.
Bratislava on the other hand looks like it's being rebuilt almost from the ground up, has a reasonable tech scene (even hosts demoscene parties!) and also has some of the friendliest people I've ever met anywhere. Eset seems to be the anchor company.
Hey, even Saarbruecken hosts demoscene parties :-)
I am an expat engineer in Budapest and the tech scene here has a lot of ups and downs, definitely meet a lot of engineers just by walking around, it isn't quite a tech hub yet.
The very low cost of living and high salaries for engineers make it quite attractive, even though rent prices keep going up it is still a very good place to live, decent quality of living, centrally located within Europe with lots of options to travel and all, I'd definitely recommend, and hope it becomes an even bigger tech hub in the future.
The very low cost of living and high salaries for engineers make it quite attractive, even though rent prices keep going up it is still a very good place to live, decent quality of living, centrally located within Europe with lots of options to travel and all, I'd definitely recommend, and hope it becomes an even bigger tech hub in the future.
Why is country name enlisted in one line with city names?
If I ever decide to leave Canada, that's probably where I'll go.