Walmart stumbles with its 'last mile' package delivery plan(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Walmart stumbles with its 'last mile' package delivery plan
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-walmart-lastmile-workers-insight/walmart-discovers-why-the-last-mile-is-the-hardest-idUSKBN1KK0DD
125 comments
This is kind of a strange comment. I don't think a lot of HN folks have worked in last mile logistics, but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typically pays around $1.50 for Prime packages and I would say it isn't just the upper middle class that is buying from Amazon at this point. If people don't pay for shipping, there will be a human cost. If people are willing to pay for some aspect of value-add (actually coming to your door, caring about retry attempts, caring about lost packages, caring about how well the people involved are treated) this would change fast. Anyone who tries to go slower than peak speed or do it ethically gets crushed by someone doing it faster or in a shadier way, because people refuse to pay for shipping.
The point is that if $x/item is a reasonable cost for doing something in an industry, it's ridiculous to expect a comparable cost from workers who do something else, specialize in something else, and don't do it full-time on a sufficient scale to optimize their workday/workflow.
It appears that Walmart for some reason thought that having their existing associates to do it "on the side" after their ordinary job will somehow be more efficient (or even just as efficient) than hiring people to actually do that (and just that) efficiently. Clearly this experience shows that it's not, and doing it in the way described in the article would reasonably cost much, much more than $2/package; and getting it done for "industry standard" prices would require doing it in the "industry standard" way.
It appears that Walmart for some reason thought that having their existing associates to do it "on the side" after their ordinary job will somehow be more efficient (or even just as efficient) than hiring people to actually do that (and just that) efficiently. Clearly this experience shows that it's not, and doing it in the way described in the article would reasonably cost much, much more than $2/package; and getting it done for "industry standard" prices would require doing it in the "industry standard" way.
> but $2/package is average to above average. Amazon typically pays around $1.50 for Prime packages
That just means working for Amazon is even more abysmal. Last mile logistics is shitty to human beings period.
That just means working for Amazon is even more abysmal. Last mile logistics is shitty to human beings period.
I know absolutely nothing about last mile logistics, but it's strange to me that (at least in the U.S.) we literally have someone going to practically every single house and business 6 days a week (postal carrier), and yet this is still a problem. I would think leveraging the human already coming to house every day would be the most efficient?
Look up FedEx SmartPost, UPS Mail Innovations, DHL eConmerce, etc. these are all companies who “work share” with USPS. They deliver the package to the post office and USPS leverages their existing network of mail carriers to do the “last mile” delivery.
The problem with these services is that they are very slow. The hand-off at the post office adds a day. Additionally these are considered economy services without a delivery guarantee by the carriers so they will wait until they have a full trucks worth of these before sending them on a leg.
Wal-Mart is trying to get to same day delivery and bringing everything to the local post office for them to deliver would add at least a day.
Furthermore those USPS economies suffer a bit once packages exceed 1 lb. it’s often too big for a letter carrier to take on their route - so they’d be delivered through the priority mail network which is often a different driver than your daily mail man and does not deliver to every house every day.
The problem with these services is that they are very slow. The hand-off at the post office adds a day. Additionally these are considered economy services without a delivery guarantee by the carriers so they will wait until they have a full trucks worth of these before sending them on a leg.
Wal-Mart is trying to get to same day delivery and bringing everything to the local post office for them to deliver would add at least a day.
Furthermore those USPS economies suffer a bit once packages exceed 1 lb. it’s often too big for a letter carrier to take on their route - so they’d be delivered through the priority mail network which is often a different driver than your daily mail man and does not deliver to every house every day.
Given that package delivery is where USPS can profit, I wonder why Amazon/Walmart don't lobby to modernize USPS so it can cover the use-cases - why not deliver multiple times per day? There's no greater economy of scale than "delivering everything to everyone".
I mean, that's a rhetorical question. Obviously they'd both prefer to monopolize a for-profit alternative to USPS... but it seems short-sighted
I mean, that's a rhetorical question. Obviously they'd both prefer to monopolize a for-profit alternative to USPS... but it seems short-sighted
There's really no hope of modernizing USPS. The political cost of substantial investment into USPS is higher than the actual cost of capital. If they want to control the quality of their service, it can't involve USPS.
Can you provide a citation? My understanding is that the USPS is constrained by conservatives trying to break them financially by requiring pension funding requirements drastically beyond what is considered reasonable based on their workforce. Therefore, USPS could modernize when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution through legislation.
“Back in 2006, Congress imposed a huge and unprecedented mandate requiring that the Postal Service pre-fund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years and do so within a decade – something no other public agency or private company is required to do.”
“As a direct result of pre-funding, USPS has reached its $15 billion debt limit. In 2005, the Postal Service was debt free. Today, it holds $15 billion in debt – all of it traceable to pre-funding. By forcing the Postal Service to use all of its borrowing capacity making these annual payments, Congress has prevented it from investing in new infrastructure, products and services to better serve American homes and businesses.”
http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-ab...
“Back in 2006, Congress imposed a huge and unprecedented mandate requiring that the Postal Service pre-fund future retiree health benefits for the next 75 years and do so within a decade – something no other public agency or private company is required to do.”
“As a direct result of pre-funding, USPS has reached its $15 billion debt limit. In 2005, the Postal Service was debt free. Today, it holds $15 billion in debt – all of it traceable to pre-funding. By forcing the Postal Service to use all of its borrowing capacity making these annual payments, Congress has prevented it from investing in new infrastructure, products and services to better serve American homes and businesses.”
http://www.deliveringforamerica.com/infographic-the-truth-ab...
In 2005, the Postal Service was debt free. Today, it holds
$15 billion in debt – all of it traceable to pre-funding.
If I've promised an employee $X of retirement benefits based on years they've already worked, am I "debt free" by the definition of that article, or do I have $X of debt?
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The only thing unreasonable is the fact that only USPS is held to properly account for their post retirement benefits, whereas all other government agencies get to make up numbers and lay it on future taxpayers as the debts come due.
Can you expound on your accounting or actuarial experience to show you’re competent to determine what is considered “properly accounting for”?
I worked at an actuarial firm for a few years, and passed the exams required to be an associate actuary in the US. However, anyone can claim anything on the internet, and I shouldn't and can't claim to be all knowing about actuarial accounting, but I do think I can claim the following:
1) In order to account for something, you have to be able to measure it. Promising a population healthcare until they die requires you to know how much healthcare they will need and how much healthcare will cost, and since this is until they die, you need to know these numbers 30 to 70 years into the future.
I don't think anyone is capable of seeing that far into the future with any kind of reasonable certainty, especially not with healthcare. Therefore, it can't even be possible to "properly" account for this kind of promise, and consider the fact that pretty much every other non taxpayer funded organization has slashed and removed post retirement obligations due to skyrocketing healthcare costs and the inability to fund them.
2) According to the text of the legislation
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407/text
Sec. 8909a. Postal Service Retiree Health Benefit Fund
The law requires funding of accrued benefits. I don't think it's unreasonable to require someone to set aside funds for something that has already been promised. In fact, I think the opposite is ridiculous, which is the way most government agencies work, and the USPS has worked with their pay as you go nonsense:
https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/...
Basically, "pay" someone whatever you want now, and then actually pay for it later by raising taxes is what that means to me. I also consider it buying votes from the union members without having to increase current taxes. However, the fact that this type of law only went into effect for USPS does make me think some lobbyist of Fedex/UPS did a fantastic job.
3) The hundreds of billions of dollars of unfunded healthcare and defined benefit pensions from governments are evidence enough that whatever is going on in the benefit accounting world is not right. I know from sitting in on meetings that the people smart enough to calculate the liabilities aren't actually on the board, that's usually reserved for the uneducated policeman or firefighters and city council members who are exchanging union votes for benefits. Then they tell the actuarial what % return on investment to use to make the liabilities look smaller. Then the actuary puts a little notice in their report that says they don't agree with the unreasonable 8% return on investment assumption, but what difference does that make?
Also, in the pension consulting world, having funding for only 80% of the accrued liabilities is considered "fully funded". That is laughable. Look up what your city/county/state's funding ratios are.
In general, I simply point out the fact that no one can predict, with any reasonable accuracy, that far out into the future for something so complicated (lifespans, healthcare, investment returns, etc), so you can't really account for the liabilities in the first place. And from the fact that pretty much every single defined benefit pension that private organizations offered is no longer offered (due to strict funding requirements from ERISA and PPA laws, conveniently exempting taxpayer funded organizations), and the taxpayer funded ones that are very underfunded, you can surmise that the whole thing doesn't work. Too much money at play, too many ephemeral decision makers at the table who can pass the buck and reap the rewards, which all adds up to too much agency risk. Which, funnily enough, is never taken into account with these long term obligations.
How does this effect you in day to day life? Enjoy the deteriorating subway service, school systems, roadways, water quality, air quality, etc. as all that increased tax money goes towards these unfunded benefits for retired people.
1) In order to account for something, you have to be able to measure it. Promising a population healthcare until they die requires you to know how much healthcare they will need and how much healthcare will cost, and since this is until they die, you need to know these numbers 30 to 70 years into the future.
I don't think anyone is capable of seeing that far into the future with any kind of reasonable certainty, especially not with healthcare. Therefore, it can't even be possible to "properly" account for this kind of promise, and consider the fact that pretty much every other non taxpayer funded organization has slashed and removed post retirement obligations due to skyrocketing healthcare costs and the inability to fund them.
2) According to the text of the legislation
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407/text
Sec. 8909a. Postal Service Retiree Health Benefit Fund
The law requires funding of accrued benefits. I don't think it's unreasonable to require someone to set aside funds for something that has already been promised. In fact, I think the opposite is ridiculous, which is the way most government agencies work, and the USPS has worked with their pay as you go nonsense:
https://about.usps.com/who-we-are/financials/annual-reports/...
Basically, "pay" someone whatever you want now, and then actually pay for it later by raising taxes is what that means to me. I also consider it buying votes from the union members without having to increase current taxes. However, the fact that this type of law only went into effect for USPS does make me think some lobbyist of Fedex/UPS did a fantastic job.
3) The hundreds of billions of dollars of unfunded healthcare and defined benefit pensions from governments are evidence enough that whatever is going on in the benefit accounting world is not right. I know from sitting in on meetings that the people smart enough to calculate the liabilities aren't actually on the board, that's usually reserved for the uneducated policeman or firefighters and city council members who are exchanging union votes for benefits. Then they tell the actuarial what % return on investment to use to make the liabilities look smaller. Then the actuary puts a little notice in their report that says they don't agree with the unreasonable 8% return on investment assumption, but what difference does that make?
Also, in the pension consulting world, having funding for only 80% of the accrued liabilities is considered "fully funded". That is laughable. Look up what your city/county/state's funding ratios are.
In general, I simply point out the fact that no one can predict, with any reasonable accuracy, that far out into the future for something so complicated (lifespans, healthcare, investment returns, etc), so you can't really account for the liabilities in the first place. And from the fact that pretty much every single defined benefit pension that private organizations offered is no longer offered (due to strict funding requirements from ERISA and PPA laws, conveniently exempting taxpayer funded organizations), and the taxpayer funded ones that are very underfunded, you can surmise that the whole thing doesn't work. Too much money at play, too many ephemeral decision makers at the table who can pass the buck and reap the rewards, which all adds up to too much agency risk. Which, funnily enough, is never taken into account with these long term obligations.
How does this effect you in day to day life? Enjoy the deteriorating subway service, school systems, roadways, water quality, air quality, etc. as all that increased tax money goes towards these unfunded benefits for retired people.
Excellent rebuttal, which I appreciate greatly. It’s a hard problem to solve.
Citation needed that conservatives killed USPS. I didn't find any unbiased sources to confirm this. To the contrary, the 2006 bill was a bipartisan measure passed by voice vote in the House and unanimous consent in the Senate.[1]
[1] https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407
[1] https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407
Republicans held majorities in both the Senate and the House, the bill was signed by a George W Bush.
While that's true, it doesn't appear to have been a partisan or even controversial bill at the time, so I feel that it's disingenuous to blame Republicans.
If you control the majority of a legislative body, I argue it’s reasonable to blame that party for legislation they pass (as they could just as easily not pass it with the control they have). Likewise, the Republican President could have vetoed it (which he did not do).
Also, the legislation was sponsored by a Republican (Thomas “Tom” Davis III Sponsor. Representative for Virginia's 11th congressional district).
Also, the legislation was sponsored by a Republican (Thomas “Tom” Davis III Sponsor. Representative for Virginia's 11th congressional district).
> when Congress is replaced with politicians not working on dismantling the institution
So basically never?
So basically never?
i've been there 8+ years, involved in all corners of this org and i don't like being a negative nancy but i agree on many many levels
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I've gotten more months of free Amazon Prime from UPS Mail Innovations packages that missed the "guaranteed" delivery deadline than all other sources combined.
If I could reliably predict which packages would come vs MI, I might never have to pay for Prime again.
If I could reliably predict which packages would come vs MI, I might never have to pay for Prime again.
UPS made $5bn last year. As Jeff Bezos says, “your margin is my opportunity.”
He’ll make a whole lot more though, UPS is unionized and widely regarded as a pretty good place to work. Better shut them down.
He’ll make a whole lot more though, UPS is unionized and widely regarded as a pretty good place to work. Better shut them down.
Compared to what?
You do realize that humans have toiled in misery, scraping by and fighting for their lives for 99.9999999% of our history right?
You do realize that humans have toiled in misery, scraping by and fighting for their lives for 99.9999999% of our history right?
That's too many decimal points if you were actually thinking critically.
Is your best argument really "well they could be dying of cholera and starve all the time so it's not that bad"?
Is your best argument really "well they could be dying of cholera and starve all the time so it's not that bad"?
Critical thought != precise thought.
You can think critically while simultaneously using exaggerated figures for emphasis. Especially when the figure cannot be precise.
The argument is that these people are choosing to do this. They can choose to spend their time however they please. They know the full terms of the offer, and they choose to accept. There are people in the world who would cross oceans and deserts just to be able to have the opportunity to accept a similar job.
The poor in the USA live better than kings in other parts of the world.
You can think critically while simultaneously using exaggerated figures for emphasis. Especially when the figure cannot be precise.
The argument is that these people are choosing to do this. They can choose to spend their time however they please. They know the full terms of the offer, and they choose to accept. There are people in the world who would cross oceans and deserts just to be able to have the opportunity to accept a similar job.
The poor in the USA live better than kings in other parts of the world.
I think they are honestly baiting upvotes from HN's liberal audience.
Everyone has to/should work and provide value for our society.
I dont understand why package delivery is so much worse than factory life, sitting infront of a computer 60 hours a week, etc..
I chalk this up to a niche percentage of the population that complains regardless of the situation.
Everyone has to/should work and provide value for our society.
I dont understand why package delivery is so much worse than factory life, sitting infront of a computer 60 hours a week, etc..
I chalk this up to a niche percentage of the population that complains regardless of the situation.
Is anyone saying that it is worse, or are commenters suggesting that that the pay and working conditions should be improved?
Weirdly enough, people are choosing to work there instead of
>retail
>Restaurant
>outdoor/home
I dont get it, but people are choosing that job instead of higher paying jobs in different conditions.
I'm a big fan of letting employees decide rather than bystanders outside the industry make that judgement for them.
>retail
>Restaurant
>outdoor/home
I dont get it, but people are choosing that job instead of higher paying jobs in different conditions.
I'm a big fan of letting employees decide rather than bystanders outside the industry make that judgement for them.
I take it you never delivered newspapers as a kid?
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The economics of delivery are determined by route density - how many packages per mile you can deliver.
Who will have higher route density ? UPS, which delivers orders for everybody wanting to ship to your neighborhood ? or Walmart, that only ships from Walmart, with it's measly share of e-commerce ?
It was probably always a risky proposition.
So what's the ideal way to test a risky proposition ? issue a big press release.
And now i'm curios: how is the stock price affected from this press release, and failure ? is it possible, that this kind of tactic(very common in big companies) is beneficial to the stock price , or maybe to the compensation of managers ?
Who will have higher route density ? UPS, which delivers orders for everybody wanting to ship to your neighborhood ? or Walmart, that only ships from Walmart, with it's measly share of e-commerce ?
It was probably always a risky proposition.
So what's the ideal way to test a risky proposition ? issue a big press release.
And now i'm curios: how is the stock price affected from this press release, and failure ? is it possible, that this kind of tactic(very common in big companies) is beneficial to the stock price , or maybe to the compensation of managers ?
If Wallmart had an easy delivery option, their e-commerce would be higher, and I suggest there is very high 'density' in the environs directly around a wallmart.
The other advantage is that Wallmart sells the stuff we use a lot: cleaning things, toothpaste, diapers.
If Wallmart coupled delivery with the gangbuster of all 'monthly box of stuff' type business plans (whereby the 'stuff' is not a tester box of perfume, but literally the stuff you buy most often in a household) - they could win.
But the notion of getting employees to do this after shift is utterly beyond crazy.
Just hire people for this, focus hard on selling the feature in a region, get people to sign up to 'toothpaste every month' and 'milk and eggs every monday',
The other advantage is that Wallmart sells the stuff we use a lot: cleaning things, toothpaste, diapers.
If Wallmart coupled delivery with the gangbuster of all 'monthly box of stuff' type business plans (whereby the 'stuff' is not a tester box of perfume, but literally the stuff you buy most often in a household) - they could win.
But the notion of getting employees to do this after shift is utterly beyond crazy.
Just hire people for this, focus hard on selling the feature in a region, get people to sign up to 'toothpaste every month' and 'milk and eggs every monday',
I'd be surprised if the density around Walmart was particularly high.
As a consequence of opening a large number of huge stores, the majority seem to be in suburbs / places where land is cheap. Not exactly high-density urban centers.
As a consequence of opening a large number of huge stores, the majority seem to be in suburbs / places where land is cheap. Not exactly high-density urban centers.
> sit on your Walmart couch, in your Walmart clothes, eating your Walmart food and watching your Walmart TV.
That's basically how I exist now (excluding the "Walmart" prefix).
I sit, I eat, I play video games, I'm somewhat dressed. What do you imagine people with a "nice looking house with their nice looking family" do on the weekends? The middle class doesn't have some secret club we all attend.
That's basically how I exist now (excluding the "Walmart" prefix).
I sit, I eat, I play video games, I'm somewhat dressed. What do you imagine people with a "nice looking house with their nice looking family" do on the weekends? The middle class doesn't have some secret club we all attend.
> What do you imagine people with a "nice looking house with their nice looking family" do on the weekends?
In an era of both decreased economic mobility (education and housing cost increases, lower high-income tax rates, lower effective taxes on generational wealth transfer) and increased commercial interest in and monetization of attention (adtech, gaming, peak content)...
Probably teaching their children how to be titans of industry and avoiding screens? (Or at least middle management)
In an era of both decreased economic mobility (education and housing cost increases, lower high-income tax rates, lower effective taxes on generational wealth transfer) and increased commercial interest in and monetization of attention (adtech, gaming, peak content)...
Probably teaching their children how to be titans of industry and avoiding screens? (Or at least middle management)
They're yachting in the Hampton's naturally.
Funny thing about yachting is it's not even cost-prohibitive for the middle-class anymore. Not since fiberglass became ubiquitous in the 70s. It's comparable to owning an RV/camper van - something I would not associate with the upper bourgeoisie.
A boat costs about as much as a nice car, except boats are purely recreational. I can justify the cost of a $10k car because it'd be taking me to work every day, but $10k + upkeep for fun is ridiculous. Additionally, you need enough space to store the boat, which already puts you into bourgeoisie territory.
Moxie (of Signal fame) described the transformation in accessibility made by the introduction of plastic boats better than I could ever hope to in his documentary Hold Fast 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lwbHYOFD-4&t=2m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lwbHYOFD-4&t=2m30s
Not to be a downer, 'cause I think the movie is great but, how much was he worth then (and how much now?). Was there a financial safety net tied into Moxie's life then? Was he just playing crust punk tourist?
I can't speak to Moxie's socio-economic background, but how is this relevant?
It would kinda ruin the authenticity of a coupla scrappy people putting a boat together on the cheap to sail it around. More fantasy than documentary.
His factual description of the impact Pearson and fiberglass had on the accessibility of sailing to the middle class stands either way.
[deleted]
>All so you can spend an extra 30 minutes at your job waiting for someone else's groceries, which you will then spend 2 hours to deliver, by hand, to their (assuming) nice looking house with their nice looking family, as you then trudge back to your apartment and sit on your Walmart couch, in your Walmart clothes, eating your Walmart food and watching your Walmart TV.
>If that's not depressing I don't know what is.
Unemployment, starvation, no TV.
Its weird, no one bats an eye when I work 60 hours a week but the moment a walmart worker works part time, we think that something is wrong with society.
Whoever spreads anti-walmart propaganda did fantastic work.
>If that's not depressing I don't know what is.
Unemployment, starvation, no TV.
Its weird, no one bats an eye when I work 60 hours a week but the moment a walmart worker works part time, we think that something is wrong with society.
Whoever spreads anti-walmart propaganda did fantastic work.
> All so you can spend an extra 30 minutes at your job waiting for someone else's groceries, which you will then spend 2 hours to deliver, by hand, to their (assuming) nice looking house with their nice looking family, as you then trudge back to your apartment and sit on your Walmart couch, in your Walmart clothes, eating your Walmart food and watching your Walmart TV.
That's exactly what pizza, take out, Uber eats, news paper, usps delivery is about. Do you really think these delivery drivers make a lot more? Definitely more than Walmart but it's still not a lot.
I think if Walmart had a better pay model, things would have worked.
That's exactly what pizza, take out, Uber eats, news paper, usps delivery is about. Do you really think these delivery drivers make a lot more? Definitely more than Walmart but it's still not a lot.
I think if Walmart had a better pay model, things would have worked.
>Extra hour of OT pay (average pay $11 per hour)
$11 is just below the in-store FT min wage. The avg is more like $13 with 1.5x (overtime?) that would be $19.50 + $2 package and .54 per mile..
4 pks per night, 5 nights a week, driving 10 miles and taking 1 hr would then be $164.5 which is the income of an extra 12 hour shift for working an extra 5 hours...
P.S. (((4×2)+19.5+(.54×10))×5)÷13 = 12 hrs
$11 is just below the in-store FT min wage. The avg is more like $13 with 1.5x (overtime?) that would be $19.50 + $2 package and .54 per mile..
4 pks per night, 5 nights a week, driving 10 miles and taking 1 hr would then be $164.5 which is the income of an extra 12 hour shift for working an extra 5 hours...
P.S. (((4×2)+19.5+(.54×10))×5)÷13 = 12 hrs
According to the article, they are earning $15.40 per package.
> "...that would earn them $15.40 in compensation per package and fuel, before overtime pay."
> "...that would earn them $15.40 in compensation per package and fuel, before overtime pay."
Why are you not excluding the OT in your calculation?
Isn't the pay they're getting from this way better than their normal walmart job when you include the OT they'd be getting?
Isn't the pay they're getting from this way better than their normal walmart job when you include the OT they'd be getting?
Not really if they're getting an hour of OT pay (the cap for this project) for two hours of actual work required.
Walmart has some nice TV's.
I think people forget how entrenched and relatively good the existing package delivery services are. USPS has a key to my apartment building, so they can just show up and drop off packages hassle-free. UPS does not have that key, but they successfully break in every day and leave packages for my building with no problems. (Spent some time not working and they didn't even ring my buzzer in an attempt to get in, the packages were just magically in the common area. No doubt the driver knows the friendly neighbor that is happy to let him in and do his thing, and knows that the three buildings owned by my landlord have the same key/super, so can do 3 buildings worth of deliveries with one buzzer press.)
Meanwhile, the upstarts just don't do this. Whoever Amazon contracts out to (is it still LaserShip?) just doesn't care about attempting to break into my building. They show up at 9pm and ring the buzzer, then leave if I don't go downstairs and open the door quickly enough. They are getting better, though, as I've seen some random LaserShip packages laying around in the common area. But I still think "shipped via USPS, this will arrive" and "shipped by LaserShip, better go pick it up at B&H and cancel the Amazon order".
But anyway, expecting random Walmart employees to have the skills necessary to circumvent pesky locks is kind of unreasonable. When you do it every day for years you probably develop a process that works for each building you deliver to... but when it's a one-off thing for an extra $3... the customer probably isn't going to get their package. The customer that doesn't get their package is probably going to order from Amazon. Sorry, Walmart...
Meanwhile, the upstarts just don't do this. Whoever Amazon contracts out to (is it still LaserShip?) just doesn't care about attempting to break into my building. They show up at 9pm and ring the buzzer, then leave if I don't go downstairs and open the door quickly enough. They are getting better, though, as I've seen some random LaserShip packages laying around in the common area. But I still think "shipped via USPS, this will arrive" and "shipped by LaserShip, better go pick it up at B&H and cancel the Amazon order".
But anyway, expecting random Walmart employees to have the skills necessary to circumvent pesky locks is kind of unreasonable. When you do it every day for years you probably develop a process that works for each building you deliver to... but when it's a one-off thing for an extra $3... the customer probably isn't going to get their package. The customer that doesn't get their package is probably going to order from Amazon. Sorry, Walmart...
I'm with you on UPS, but among "existing package delivery services" I find FedEx to be pretty shit overall. At each commercial location I've had in multiple counties, they have delivered at a giant range of times (e.g. one day 9:20 AM and the next day 5:20 PM) with a lot of different drivers and about a 20% chance that they're busy today so they won't even come around (i.e. the business was open all day and there is no tag on the door) but they'll still flip the status to "customer not present". I've bitched to Amazon about using FedEx a lot, and now it seems they don't use FedEx for me very much anymore... of course other stores haven't gotten the message.
I suspect that FedEx's delivery is so crap precisely because they get a lot of the Amazon business.
I think the solution to this is going to end up looking a lot like a national ID card with a cross-reference online.
To 'sign in' somewhere, a machine scans the card, cross-references the data the card is claiming with the face and a national ID database. Might also list public employment / contract records of relevance (like, carrier, emergency services, etc).
This would also let someone sign in to a common area and sub-select a portion of the local ACL to allow access to a locker for stuff.
The current attempts at such systems are clumsy, expensive, and insane due to the lack of such public infrastructure. The mechanical versions all invariably also involve that same level of public (or at least to local private entities with cameras) exposure.
Yes, there should also be regulations related to such a system. I don't mind it being used in the EXACT and pre-determined authentication method outlined but /abusing/ it or /caching/ data in ways that break down anonymity shouldn't be allowed.
To 'sign in' somewhere, a machine scans the card, cross-references the data the card is claiming with the face and a national ID database. Might also list public employment / contract records of relevance (like, carrier, emergency services, etc).
This would also let someone sign in to a common area and sub-select a portion of the local ACL to allow access to a locker for stuff.
The current attempts at such systems are clumsy, expensive, and insane due to the lack of such public infrastructure. The mechanical versions all invariably also involve that same level of public (or at least to local private entities with cameras) exposure.
Yes, there should also be regulations related to such a system. I don't mind it being used in the EXACT and pre-determined authentication method outlined but /abusing/ it or /caching/ data in ways that break down anonymity shouldn't be allowed.
Sounds like there needs to be a solution to this problem.
Remember those 'bufferbox' startups that got bought up by Google and then dissapeared ...
Remember those 'bufferbox' startups that got bought up by Google and then dissapeared ...
[deleted]
Yeah, I've been having trouble with LaserShip too, but another alternative is to ship to an Amazon locker if you have one nearby.
>"UPS does not have that key, but they successfully break in every day and leave packages for my building with no problems"
I observed that they simply ring every buzzer in the building until someone lets them in. Im curious if they use a different technique where you live?
I observed that they simply ring every buzzer in the building until someone lets them in. Im curious if they use a different technique where you live?
It's amusing to me how out of touch executives are. Some executive makes a decision for this and everyone is too scared to tell them it's a stupid idea.
This happens where I work, too.
They could have had the employees deliver for 10 hours of their 40 hour shift so they aren't exhausted while driving. Have the employees do it during the shift rather than after which is likely during rush hour. Give employees consistent routes they are familiar with. If there's a package to deliver ok that route...great. if not, then do the regular associates job. Company vehicles to reduce burden on your employees who make $11 an hour. Buy some Chevy Bolt that can be charged at Walmart. It's also hatchback so store lots of stuff. Plaster Walmart ads to increase visibility of the service. A clean looking new car will increase branding.
This is the largest retailer in the world...don't act like a poor startup.
This happens where I work, too.
They could have had the employees deliver for 10 hours of their 40 hour shift so they aren't exhausted while driving. Have the employees do it during the shift rather than after which is likely during rush hour. Give employees consistent routes they are familiar with. If there's a package to deliver ok that route...great. if not, then do the regular associates job. Company vehicles to reduce burden on your employees who make $11 an hour. Buy some Chevy Bolt that can be charged at Walmart. It's also hatchback so store lots of stuff. Plaster Walmart ads to increase visibility of the service. A clean looking new car will increase branding.
This is the largest retailer in the world...don't act like a poor startup.
> Have the employees do it during the shift
So then you have to have someone else on overlapping schedule to cover that portion of the shift whilst the original worker is away on delivery. But if there are no deliveries then cancel the overlap.
And if the deliveries are to occur mid-shift then the overlapper is on a split-shift schedule.
Eventually it becomes simpler to handle the deliveries outside the store shifts.
So then you have to have someone else on overlapping schedule to cover that portion of the shift whilst the original worker is away on delivery. But if there are no deliveries then cancel the overlap.
And if the deliveries are to occur mid-shift then the overlapper is on a split-shift schedule.
Eventually it becomes simpler to handle the deliveries outside the store shifts.
> Some executive makes a decision for this and everyone is too scared to tell them it's a stupid idea.
Or the executive tells them I am the Big Boss and this will definitely work.
Or the executive tells them I am the Big Boss and this will definitely work.
And everyone is to scared to say, "yes you're the big boss, but this idea is still dumb and won't work. Let's at least go on linkedin and try to poach at least one executive from amazon flex."
Yeah, this was a great idea but terribly executed by the execs.
It's ironic that Walmart has such a huge logistics problem in this area, because IMO Walmart and Sam's Club have insanely good logistics when it comes to getting product to their actual stores. They are by far in the best position to do grocery delivery, if only they could figure out 'last mile' delivery.
The vast majority of people have rapidly moved to purchasing things from Amazon, and this leaves Walmart in the dust. Yes, fakes are an issue etc. but most people don't know that. All they know is that Amazon is easy, they think it is cheap, and that Amazon will resolve any issues they have when e.g. getting bad items.
Amazon historically (and still kinda does) have a problem with getting perishables logistically to last-mile delivery points, whereas Walmart and Sam's Club have already figured this out and done it for a very long time. There are TONS of places in the U.S. that do not have a Whole Foods nearby, but have a Walmart or Sam's Club just a mile or so away.
But Amazon is quickly catching up with its acquisition of Whole Foods, etc., and Walmart seems incapable of letting consumers just pay more to actually get this service like Amazon or Instacart do.
The vast majority of people have rapidly moved to purchasing things from Amazon, and this leaves Walmart in the dust. Yes, fakes are an issue etc. but most people don't know that. All they know is that Amazon is easy, they think it is cheap, and that Amazon will resolve any issues they have when e.g. getting bad items.
Amazon historically (and still kinda does) have a problem with getting perishables logistically to last-mile delivery points, whereas Walmart and Sam's Club have already figured this out and done it for a very long time. There are TONS of places in the U.S. that do not have a Whole Foods nearby, but have a Walmart or Sam's Club just a mile or so away.
But Amazon is quickly catching up with its acquisition of Whole Foods, etc., and Walmart seems incapable of letting consumers just pay more to actually get this service like Amazon or Instacart do.
>Amazon historically (and still kinda does) have a problem with getting perishables logistically to last-mile delivery points, whereas Walmart and Sam's Club have already figured this out and done it for a very long time.
I don't think getting groceries to store shelves counts as "last mile." The entire problem with last mile is that instead of delivering a truckload singular location, one is many delivering tiny shipments to scattered, irregular locations, which is substantially more time, labor, and fuel expensive, not to mention logistically more difficult.
I don't think getting groceries to store shelves counts as "last mile." The entire problem with last mile is that instead of delivering a truckload singular location, one is many delivering tiny shipments to scattered, irregular locations, which is substantially more time, labor, and fuel expensive, not to mention logistically more difficult.
Totally, that was poor wording on my part. Instead of "last-mile delivery points" I should have said "warehouses (or stores) where last-mile delivery shipments originate". By purchasing Whole Foods, they solved a large portion of this, but the number of Whole Foods stores still is tiny in comparison to Walmart/Sam's Club (I think, I couldn't find numbers sadly)
If you think last-mile logistics is interesting, come check out Picnic in the Netherlands. We're an online-only supermarket. We do milkman style deliveries, where we have a few fixed times per day that the customer can choose to have their delivery (20 minute window), allowing us to make the routing efficient and fast, enough that we can do free deliveries. This overall seems to be working better than Walmart's approach.
We've got a pretty solid tech team, and always looking for more people to join. https://blog.picnic.nl/
We've got a pretty solid tech team, and always looking for more people to join. https://blog.picnic.nl/
I think for me ideally I would place the order online and drive through to pick it up.
Eventually it’s a robot doing the drive through pickup. You just load the items into a trunk which automatically opens.
But I always liked the idea of streamlined pickup not last mile in-home delivery.
Eventually it’s a robot doing the drive through pickup. You just load the items into a trunk which automatically opens.
But I always liked the idea of streamlined pickup not last mile in-home delivery.
That seems to be the model that Walmart is having the most success with right now in the US. Fortunately this is something we could do if it becomes more requested. But, just guessing, that market is probably small. I think the main competition will be shopping in store vs. online + delivered.
Had the pleasure to interact with PicNic CTO in their past job and met PicNic tech team at various conferences in Europe: top talent with a great team spirit working on many interesting topics.
PicNic is a bit puzzling for traditional retailers. I interact with C-levels execs of "traditional" retailers in Europe and very few have heard about PicNic. When they realize what PicNic achieved in the NL, basically "solving" the last mile problem they all have, they usually are quite impressed.
Obviously, last-mile delivery is highly country specific: sociology and urban planning/population density in the Netherlands is very different to any other European country. Attempt to roll out the PicNic model in Scandinavia (roughly the same population size) would be a completely different story.
As an outsider, I'm wondering what PicNic next move will be. My money is on an international expansion into Germany, starting with Dusseldorf and its lander (similar population density and size).
PicNic is a bit puzzling for traditional retailers. I interact with C-levels execs of "traditional" retailers in Europe and very few have heard about PicNic. When they realize what PicNic achieved in the NL, basically "solving" the last mile problem they all have, they usually are quite impressed.
Obviously, last-mile delivery is highly country specific: sociology and urban planning/population density in the Netherlands is very different to any other European country. Attempt to roll out the PicNic model in Scandinavia (roughly the same population size) would be a completely different story.
As an outsider, I'm wondering what PicNic next move will be. My money is on an international expansion into Germany, starting with Dusseldorf and its lander (similar population density and size).
They would operate right next to the headquarters of Metro, Rewe and Aldi, some of the biggest retailers in Germany. That would immediately trigger a response which would be great for customers.
You guessed correctly!
https://ecommercenews.eu/dutch-online-supermarket-picnic-exp...
Indeed some things work great in the Netherlands which might not work well in other places. But even if we have to change some parts of the delivery model to adapt to other markets, I think the high level concept has a high chance of working.
https://ecommercenews.eu/dutch-online-supermarket-picnic-exp...
Indeed some things work great in the Netherlands which might not work well in other places. But even if we have to change some parts of the delivery model to adapt to other markets, I think the high level concept has a high chance of working.
I do agree. You're in a much better position than your competitors: easier for you to win on the delivery market in the FR than, say, for Carrefour or Auchan to solve it.
(which they have attempted to solve for the last 10 years with varying degrees of success)
I don't get how this is a major issue.
Most UK supermarkets have an online delivery service (even Iceland!) You pick a delivery slot for a certain price (off peak is cheaper) and then choose what you want.
They have store assistants with specific trolleys with plastic boxes for each order and fill up as they walk around the store. Boxes get loaded to a specially designed truck and delivered in the time slot.
Works pretty well, unless you're this person https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/2sxjiv/tes...
Most UK supermarkets have an online delivery service (even Iceland!) You pick a delivery slot for a certain price (off peak is cheaper) and then choose what you want.
They have store assistants with specific trolleys with plastic boxes for each order and fill up as they walk around the store. Boxes get loaded to a specially designed truck and delivered in the time slot.
Works pretty well, unless you're this person https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblems/comments/2sxjiv/tes...
Haha, that link reminds me of a substitution I got one time. Frozen garlic cubes were replaced with frozen mixed veg.
I thought it was a little odd at the time till the next time I was in the store and noticed the frozen garlic cubes were right next to the frozen mixed veg. So rather than apply logic and grab some other type of easy garlic they just grabbed the thing next to it. I actually facepalmed.
I thought it was a little odd at the time till the next time I was in the store and noticed the frozen garlic cubes were right next to the frozen mixed veg. So rather than apply logic and grab some other type of easy garlic they just grabbed the thing next to it. I actually facepalmed.
This appears to be more about general merchandise rather than groceries, I think the nearest comparison would be Argos's Fast Track delivery option where they seem (never used it myself) to have someone drive over from the nearest store rather than have a central warehouse. Not sure how Argos pays the drivers in their case.
Spoiler alert: They didn't pay their employees enough for the deliveries, and these employees ended up averaging about $7/hour to make deliveries. If they fixed this (seemingly) basic problem, I wonder how well this would work.
$7 per hour using their personal vehicles and insurance. And personal insurance might not even cover these accidents.
"All sixteen workers who had participated in the program said delivery of five packages would generally take them more than two hours to complete. If a worker drove 10 miles to drop five packages, that would earn them $15.40 in compensation per package and fuel, before overtime pay."
They clearly just dont have the density of orders for this to work. Theres videos on youtube of the amazon flex app, a 2 hour shift with a car full of boxes is mostly within a couple of blocks.
They clearly just dont have the density of orders for this to work. Theres videos on youtube of the amazon flex app, a 2 hour shift with a car full of boxes is mostly within a couple of blocks.
One idea would be to pay customers to deliver packages. Then you can incentivize them to come in to buy something and then take and deliver some packages for you.
It'd be much harder to keep people accountable. Who do you blame when the product arrives damaged (or not at all)?
There's probably some way to incentivize good behavior. I would do it for my neighbors within reason. That being said Amazon is still leading the way, maybe Walmart can do USPS for the last mile as well.
I wonder if Whole Foods, Wegmans or Trader Joe's would be more successful at an experiment like this. I can't imagine anybody working at a Walmart store trusting their employer with schemes like this.
P.S. Their new website homepage doesn't show any prices. It feels kind of dishonest.
P.S. Their new website homepage doesn't show any prices. It feels kind of dishonest.
That's such a good idea that Whole Foods is already doing it. You might know it as Amazon Fresh.
Whole Foods employees pick up stuff and deliver it to homes after their shift is over at the store?
Amazon employees do. And Whole Foods has an Instacart partnership (delivery.wholefoodsmarket.com) from before they were acquired.
But that's not the same as a walmart employee finishing work, and then driving stuff to people's homes. Am I missing something?
I am admittedly abstracting a little bit, from this very particular program structure to the general problem of retail outlets doing home delivery to regular consumers.
I suspect Amazon-owned companies are unlikely experiment with the particular structure Walmart is trying. It feels like Walmart is trying to solve a very particular problem that most other companies might not have.
I suspect Amazon-owned companies are unlikely experiment with the particular structure Walmart is trying. It feels like Walmart is trying to solve a very particular problem that most other companies might not have.
If memory serves me well, a few store chains in Europe are exploring approaching this by flipping the problem on its head. Rather than delivering the goods at the customers' houses, they stick to having the local store prep the orders and then having customers show up at a glorified drive-through.
Aren't there grocery stores in North America trying that approach? For all they know it might prompt a startup to actually solve the last mile problem for them, in much the same way as there's a startup or three out there that offer restaurant deliveries for places that don't support it out of the box.
Aren't there grocery stores in North America trying that approach? For all they know it might prompt a startup to actually solve the last mile problem for them, in much the same way as there's a startup or three out there that offer restaurant deliveries for places that don't support it out of the box.
Reminds me of kozmo.com https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kozmo.com
I recall buying DVDs from kozmo in 1999 and having them delivered by bike messenger to my office.
I was on a flight with the founder in 2000 one time telling them how much I loved it and making suggestions about what is love to see, but also expressing how surprised I was that they could make a profit... They folded soon after...
I still remember the last time I bought from them: Ran on DVD
I was on a flight with the founder in 2000 one time telling them how much I loved it and making suggestions about what is love to see, but also expressing how surprised I was that they could make a profit... They folded soon after...
I still remember the last time I bought from them: Ran on DVD
TLDR:
> Walmart’s associate delivery pilot program [...] started with store managers pitching employees an unusual new way to boost pay. Those who passed background checks could moonlight as drivers for the Walmart.com delivery service, they said.
> Fourteen of the sixteen Walmart employees told Reuters that they were put off by the program’s poor compensation. And all of them expressed concern over who would be responsible if they got into an accident or if merchandise was lost.
> Walmart’s associate delivery pilot program [...] started with store managers pitching employees an unusual new way to boost pay. Those who passed background checks could moonlight as drivers for the Walmart.com delivery service, they said.
> Fourteen of the sixteen Walmart employees told Reuters that they were put off by the program’s poor compensation. And all of them expressed concern over who would be responsible if they got into an accident or if merchandise was lost.
If you can't build it without being propped up on the risk of others, then you don't really know how to build it.
"To be fair" that sounds straight out of the play book of "growth oriented" companies in general.
Yup, this is the future without stronger labor laws.
Well there is a time element of how long one deals with the unknowns, but this is Walmart. A fortune 500 (100? 50?) company has the resources to skip most of the bootstrapping shortcuts and make a serious go at it to do a good eval.
Walmart is the Fortune 1, FYI: http://fortune.com/fortune500/
sounds like less of a product and more of a risk arbitrage to me
They also gained access to the employee's vehicle. But, yes, shifting pay from hourly to $2/package shifts a lot of the unpredictable elements of delivery to the employee.
I can't imagine they'd get away with it in the end, with all the "Uber drivers are employees" rulings. And it does seem like version 2 of the program is hourly, without overtime.
I can't imagine they'd get away with it in the end, with all the "Uber drivers are employees" rulings. And it does seem like version 2 of the program is hourly, without overtime.
To be fair , it’s $2/package plus one hour’s wage.
Or people could wait a damn day.
Gee, who here didn't foreseen an idea of strangers coming to your home to deliver after they can't wait to end their shift already (and go home) won't work.
The article mentions billions put into figuring out how to tackle on Amazon success. Here is the plan, free of charge:
Ask anyone why they chose Amazon over Wallmart, here is the answer: Both Amazon and Walmart has large range of goods, but Walmart lacks in reviews; offer perks and discounts (on products you have problems to sell) to those "good Wallmarters" who are willing to spend their time reviewing products online and you fix half of the problem. Make reviewing possible only to person who purchase a product from Wallmart to compete with horrible fake reviews that Amazon is plagued with.
- Have ONE designated person (or few people) delivering per store and made it their full-time job to deliver. The reasons I hate going to Wallmart are: 1) lack of short-distance parking lots [takes me 10 minutes to find a spot, sorry I'm lazy]. 2) confusion of where a product is [take me extra time to walk and find an isle]. 3) checkout time and lines are ridiculous [being 24-hour open doesn't mean much when there is only one clerk at the night shift, so waiting time is the same at rush hour]
- So have that ONE designated person: have their own reserved parking spot, have them handheld access to know where products are, have them skip checkout since products are paid online. Have them smart online app to deliver throughout the day, back and forth as many times as sophisticated algorithm of said app decides its the wise route possible.
You welcome, Wallmart!
The article mentions billions put into figuring out how to tackle on Amazon success. Here is the plan, free of charge:
Ask anyone why they chose Amazon over Wallmart, here is the answer: Both Amazon and Walmart has large range of goods, but Walmart lacks in reviews; offer perks and discounts (on products you have problems to sell) to those "good Wallmarters" who are willing to spend their time reviewing products online and you fix half of the problem. Make reviewing possible only to person who purchase a product from Wallmart to compete with horrible fake reviews that Amazon is plagued with.
- Have ONE designated person (or few people) delivering per store and made it their full-time job to deliver. The reasons I hate going to Wallmart are: 1) lack of short-distance parking lots [takes me 10 minutes to find a spot, sorry I'm lazy]. 2) confusion of where a product is [take me extra time to walk and find an isle]. 3) checkout time and lines are ridiculous [being 24-hour open doesn't mean much when there is only one clerk at the night shift, so waiting time is the same at rush hour]
- So have that ONE designated person: have their own reserved parking spot, have them handheld access to know where products are, have them skip checkout since products are paid online. Have them smart online app to deliver throughout the day, back and forth as many times as sophisticated algorithm of said app decides its the wise route possible.
You welcome, Wallmart!
It’s not a service I use but my local Walmart is pushing curb side pickup of online orders. So is one of my local grocery chains. It isn’t really a use case that appeals to me and I don’t much like Walmart for food shopping anyway. But that addresses your specific complaints.
What about using Uber/Lyft for deliveries? There are dedicated people already willing to drive their own cars to transport things.
The article says "Earlier this year, Reuters reported the retailer’s delivery partnerships with Uber and Lyft ended after the ride-hailing services struggled to deliver people and packages together." So sounds like they tried it already and may have had logistical issues.
That sounds like they were trying to do deliveries and ride hails at the same time, and would struggle to get the deliveries done because they were getting interrupted by the hails (or had horrible hail rates because deliveries took them out of the hot zones).
It may have worked much better if they didn't comingle the jobs, and had dedicated horus for deliveries separate from giving rides.
It may have worked much better if they didn't comingle the jobs, and had dedicated horus for deliveries separate from giving rides.
I know this is an extreme comparison, but Walmart reminds me a lot of Blockbuster. I remember Blockbuster thought it would be fine because of physical stores all over the place. They thought they had a plan to leverage that, but they never could. Turns out no one cared about the physical stores.
Blockbuster's failure will be an important example for Walmart just as soon as people can download groceries, clothing, toothpaste, and lawnmowers.
It wasn't Netflix's streaming that killed Blockbuster, it was their DVD by mail service. Streaming was another nail in the coffin, but Netflix was already stealing Blockbuster customers with DVD's by mail subscriptions -- a much more convenient (and no late fees) way to rent movies.
My last Blockbuster rental was the time I forgot to return a Blockbuster movie before vacation, by the time I returned, the late fees were more than the price of the movie ($30 or $40 iirc). I never went back.
My last Blockbuster rental was the time I forgot to return a Blockbuster movie before vacation, by the time I returned, the late fees were more than the price of the movie ($30 or $40 iirc). I never went back.
> Blockbuster's failure will be an important example for Walmart just as soon as people can download groceries
Was Blockbuster killed by streaming? Or Netflix swapping rental from an ad hoc retail to a delivery subscription model?
Was Blockbuster killed by streaming? Or Netflix swapping rental from an ad hoc retail to a delivery subscription model?
The popularity of Redbox demonstrates that some people really do appreciate being able to drive to a store and rent a DVD. Blockbuster probably died because enough people switched to Netflix that the overhead of running stores outgrew the revenue. Redbox then swooped in with automated kiosks and were able to serve Blockbuster's remaining customers.
They had a chance to become profitable and started taking away suscribers from netflix... there is a great podcast by Wondery on this https://youtu.be/qaDGUdJSlb0
BlockBuster made a killing on late fees. Netflix eliminated those.
> Was Blockbuster killed by streaming? Or Netflix swapping rental from an ad hoc retail to a delivery subscription model?
Both, together.
Both, together.
If I push some buttons and it shows up later, and I didn't have to stand up to make it happen ... I'm pretty sure I can download toothpaste today. Latency isn't impressive, though.
Blockbuster's problem was that I probably want a different movie every week. Walmart only carries n brands of pet food and they can buy extra knowing it'll sell sooner or later.
All of which the story says adds up to $15.40 for each 10 miles of five packages, not counting OT. After a week one employee said she got $100 after ~12 deliveries.
All so you can spend an extra 30 minutes at your job waiting for someone else's groceries, which you will then spend 2 hours to deliver, by hand, to their (assuming) nice looking house with their nice looking family, as you then trudge back to your apartment and sit on your Walmart couch, in your Walmart clothes, eating your Walmart food and watching your Walmart TV.
If that's not depressing I don't know what is.
*edited for typo