Do people become happier after 40?(economist.com)
economist.com
Do people become happier after 40?
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/04/12/do-people-become-happier-after-40
177 comments
I’m not sure this aligns exactly with what you’re saying but it reminded me of a bit of wisdom I received from someone a fair bit older than myself who seemed quite relaxed, happy, had just bought a house in my small hometown to turn into a B&B—generally pleased with life and a pleasure to talk to.
Me, being quite younger than I am now, and seeing most accomplishments in life as being quite uphill from where I was, asked: “Does it ever get any easier?”
She said, “No, but it gets a lot better”
Me, being quite younger than I am now, and seeing most accomplishments in life as being quite uphill from where I was, asked: “Does it ever get any easier?”
She said, “No, but it gets a lot better”
Also quote from US pro cyclist Greg Lemond:
"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
https://www.commacomma.co.uk/it-never-gets-easier-you-just-g...
"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
https://www.commacomma.co.uk/it-never-gets-easier-you-just-g...
It can get easier, if you learn to view challenges as an opportunity for growth rather than a burden.
I think that counts as "better", not "easier". Challenges, by definition, are not easy. I also think that challenges, and therefore difficulty, is an essential ingredient in being happy.
Lemond also said:
"I have always struggled to achieve excellence. One thing that cycling has taught me is that if you can achieve something without a struggle, it's not going to be satisfying."
https://www.azquotes.com/author/8602-Greg_LeMond
"I have always struggled to achieve excellence. One thing that cycling has taught me is that if you can achieve something without a struggle, it's not going to be satisfying."
https://www.azquotes.com/author/8602-Greg_LeMond
I love her response, and I'll have to remember it for when people ask me the same sort of question. My experience is very much like hers.
You've just called into question the wisdom you're perceived to get from old age.
Is it wisdom, or remembering pithy quotes? Is there a difference?
I wonder if its a strapline from some advertising or something.
Is it wisdom, or remembering pithy quotes? Is there a difference?
I wonder if its a strapline from some advertising or something.
I think your cynicism might be turned up a bit high.
I was relating a paraphrased version of a rather sincere conversation I was having with the woman over drinks while visiting my port hometown one summer.
I suppose my editing is for naught if it resulted in a tangled questioning of authenticity! ;P
I was relating a paraphrased version of a rather sincere conversation I was having with the woman over drinks while visiting my port hometown one summer.
I suppose my editing is for naught if it resulted in a tangled questioning of authenticity! ;P
Not cynicism. It was just my parents comment changed how I viewed the situation in your comment.
I'm not saying the lady was disingenuous, she passed on wisdom that you got something from. That's good. I just realised it might not have been original, that's all. So I got something from this story too, which is also good :)
I'm not saying the lady was disingenuous, she passed on wisdom that you got something from. That's good. I just realised it might not have been original, that's all. So I got something from this story too, which is also good :)
I don't see a problem with remembering particularly eloquent ways of expressing a thought I'd be expressing anyway.
Not saying its a problem. Just you mentioning remembering some one elses quote, they may have done the same from some where else.
I went from thinking 'thats a realy wise lady' to 'I wonder if she borrowed that quote from somewhere'.
Not insinuating anything negative, just you prompted me to view something in a different light.
I went from thinking 'thats a realy wise lady' to 'I wonder if she borrowed that quote from somewhere'.
Not insinuating anything negative, just you prompted me to view something in a different light.
> body's not like it used to be
I'm 32 and my body is already sore all the time. already i miss my body at 21.
not my mind, I'm a lot more mentally stable now. but body deteriorating is a big stressor to me...
I'm 32 and my body is already sore all the time. already i miss my body at 21.
not my mind, I'm a lot more mentally stable now. but body deteriorating is a big stressor to me...
Same here. I'm in the best shape of my life at 31 (3.5 years of consistent gym routines), but there are still things I can't do that I could at 16-17 with almost no exercise (like running up a long escalator or 14 floors to my flat with no breaks)
Aside from VO2, my vision is also notably worse and some of my teeth are now more filling than original tooth. And the joint flexibility from sedentary education and jobs is gone (yoga is downright painful for me)
Youth is a hell of a drug and I get why people say it's wasted on the young.
No regrets here, but getting older sucks.
Aside from VO2, my vision is also notably worse and some of my teeth are now more filling than original tooth. And the joint flexibility from sedentary education and jobs is gone (yoga is downright painful for me)
Youth is a hell of a drug and I get why people say it's wasted on the young.
No regrets here, but getting older sucks.
> Youth is a hell of a drug and I get why people say it's wasted on the young.
I'm glad 32 year old me never talked to 21 year old me. I'd have convinced me to do even more stupid shit while I was still a youth.
I'm glad 32 year old me never talked to 21 year old me. I'd have convinced me to do even more stupid shit while I was still a youth.
I don’t want to agree with you (it’s not the responsible thing), but I do agree.
Do you work out regularly? Even if it does nothing for your physique it can make you feel better.
not really, but then again it's also not hopeless. 15 minutes bike ride twice daily on weekdays, i run 4 km once weekly. my bmi is low but so is my stamina, i could definitely work out more.
i suspect its mostly stress, strain from typing and cell phone use and lifting up my 2 year old all the time
i suspect its mostly stress, strain from typing and cell phone use and lifting up my 2 year old all the time
I recently turned 30 and I honestly don't notice any difference compared to when I was 20.
count your blessings, its been really bringing me down lately.
Feeling significantly worse at 30 isn't common, except for some increase of back pain if you work sitting down.
Something else might be at play. Do you get routine medical check-ups? How's your hemoglobin?
Something else might be at play. Do you get routine medical check-ups? How's your hemoglobin?
Perhaps that was more what I was getting at. Most professional sports players peak around 30. If anything, you should feel more healthy than ever around this age.
I was in the best shape of my life around 33. It might be heavily weighted, but age is only factor in the equation of fitness.
This study is assuming that your children would have a greater degree of autonomy by the time you are in your 40s
....because you would have had them 10-15 years sooner.
Just an observation of the study
....because you would have had them 10-15 years sooner.
Just an observation of the study
30s here, I spend teen and early adult years in various forms of anxieties culminating in a super crap decade. Considering that path, I extrapolated that life will be, at best, constantly shitty if I work to stay afloat.
But it's not. To a point I do feel like a 14 year old kid these days. And at times.. I even have flashes of child like happiness. Before when I used to remember good times, it would either feel like good+old or nostalgic+old. But what I'm talking about is more like good+present.. just like when I was a child. Some burst of careless and strong inspiration. It doesn't last more than a minute, but knowing that your mind can still have these feels like newfound oxygen.
But it's not. To a point I do feel like a 14 year old kid these days. And at times.. I even have flashes of child like happiness. Before when I used to remember good times, it would either feel like good+old or nostalgic+old. But what I'm talking about is more like good+present.. just like when I was a child. Some burst of careless and strong inspiration. It doesn't last more than a minute, but knowing that your mind can still have these feels like newfound oxygen.
What did you change to get to your present state?
Sadly nothing tangible I can suggest doing to others. I'm not doing regular physical exercise, nor dramatically different diet. And note that my material situation is half shit (jobless, at my parents, dysfunctional family). So it's not a matter of finding a better spot either.
I guess my point is, don't underestimate your mind and capability for happiness, even in the worst of times, even if counting a decade.
My only hypothesis, is that after trauma you have a finer sense of what is good and bad for you and you kinda filter shit out (be it doubt, anxiety, low self esteem, social pressure) and think/go for simple but deeper fun thoughts/activities that tickle that sense of happiness.
ps: oh also, 30s is also an age where you usually have childrens so childhood is often in your mind. So maybe this is a normal time period to have more attuned brain toward this kind of mindstate.
I guess my point is, don't underestimate your mind and capability for happiness, even in the worst of times, even if counting a decade.
My only hypothesis, is that after trauma you have a finer sense of what is good and bad for you and you kinda filter shit out (be it doubt, anxiety, low self esteem, social pressure) and think/go for simple but deeper fun thoughts/activities that tickle that sense of happiness.
ps: oh also, 30s is also an age where you usually have childrens so childhood is often in your mind. So maybe this is a normal time period to have more attuned brain toward this kind of mindstate.
Close to 40, couple of young kids.
I'm not sure happiness is the thing to think about. It's meaning that's important. Happiness is a sort of evolutionary trickery to help your savannah-dwelling ancestors. Meaning is something they'd have almost no perspective on, given what's happened in between.
For me I've gotten to this stage where I feel like it's a long way between things that are entirely new.
Personally I've seen deaths, illnesses, births, weddings, divorces. Lots of all of them, from near and far.
Professionally, I've been a junior guy and a senior guy. A founder, individual contributor, a leader, a follower. Seen businesses go well, and go under. Been hired and fired, hired and fired others.
In terms of observations about the world, I'm by no means an expert on everything, but whenever something comes up I can more or less place it. I know roughly what X is, and how other people see it. I no longer get that "holy crap, I never knew tax optimization employed so many people". Or "that declarative languages stuff, it's more important than I first realized".
Same with social, economic, and political stuff. I'm not surprised to run into one or another observance anymore. And I've heard the arguments before. Sometimes better made, but the same stuff.
Science and math seem to still have that potential, so I'm gonna mine that. Things like NNs still throw up new things, even if they can be glued to a long history of thought. And observations about physics can still fascinate, though in little pieces.
I'm thinking cybersecurity next as somewhere to dig as well.
I'm not sure happiness is the thing to think about. It's meaning that's important. Happiness is a sort of evolutionary trickery to help your savannah-dwelling ancestors. Meaning is something they'd have almost no perspective on, given what's happened in between.
For me I've gotten to this stage where I feel like it's a long way between things that are entirely new.
Personally I've seen deaths, illnesses, births, weddings, divorces. Lots of all of them, from near and far.
Professionally, I've been a junior guy and a senior guy. A founder, individual contributor, a leader, a follower. Seen businesses go well, and go under. Been hired and fired, hired and fired others.
In terms of observations about the world, I'm by no means an expert on everything, but whenever something comes up I can more or less place it. I know roughly what X is, and how other people see it. I no longer get that "holy crap, I never knew tax optimization employed so many people". Or "that declarative languages stuff, it's more important than I first realized".
Same with social, economic, and political stuff. I'm not surprised to run into one or another observance anymore. And I've heard the arguments before. Sometimes better made, but the same stuff.
Science and math seem to still have that potential, so I'm gonna mine that. Things like NNs still throw up new things, even if they can be glued to a long history of thought. And observations about physics can still fascinate, though in little pieces.
I'm thinking cybersecurity next as somewhere to dig as well.
>Science and math seem to still have that potential,
To me personally chemistry seems like a field that's till really young and there is all kinds of room for amateurs to still make discoveries.
To me personally chemistry seems like a field that's till really young and there is all kinds of room for amateurs to still make discoveries.
Do you speak any other languages / have you learned a 2nd language as an adult?
Pretty interesting how simply viewing the world through an ever so slightly different verbal lens can have interesting impacts on perspective. albeit mostly only little things. But as you alluded to, it's mostly only the little things that might catch you off guard anymore.
Pretty interesting how simply viewing the world through an ever so slightly different verbal lens can have interesting impacts on perspective. albeit mostly only little things. But as you alluded to, it's mostly only the little things that might catch you off guard anymore.
Yeah actually I should have added that. I speak two languages fluently (as in could do a literature degree, you wouldn't know I wasn't native if you heard me on the phone), another as mother tongue, another as 2nd mother tongue due to weird family history, and one from school. In addition lived in yet another language zone, and learning Mandarin as well.
Which is pretty interesting but I wish I had more time to explore it.
Which is pretty interesting but I wish I had more time to explore it.
What about art? I draw and play music, and every moment feels like I'm 5 again then.
sridca(1)
Well, you certainly stop worrying about a lot of stupid shit, so that helps.
40+er here. I feel similarly. I wouldn't say I'm happier but I definitely worry a lot less about saying "no" and BS in general.
What's weird to me is that I never felt that transition happen. It just seems to have occurred over the last few years. A younger me had a real hard time saying no, now it's easy and liberating! I can't tell if it's an age thing or something else though.
What's weird to me is that I never felt that transition happen. It just seems to have occurred over the last few years. A younger me had a real hard time saying no, now it's easy and liberating! I can't tell if it's an age thing or something else though.
Of a similar age. I've found that it's gotten way easier to have difficult conversations with people, and I attribute that to life experience and long-term perspective. A difficult conversation now can save ages of regret and ill will. Other people are responsible for their own feelings, even for their feelings about you. Sometimes you have to tell people things they don't want to hear. Things that will make them sad or angry. They may rage or cry. While sometimes those things are best left unsaid, other times you have to say them and face the consequences, knowing that it's better in the long run. The long run can be longer than you think.
38 and recently felt this transition happen. I realized that it's just as silly to constantly dwell on negative thoughts, as it would be on positive ones, so decided to try that for a few days.
I don't think I can transmit this feeling by explaining it, since it's something you can only decide for yourself, but I made the choice to focus on the positive. I still keep the cynical realness in the back of my mind, should I need it, but I don't want to spend most of my time there anymore.
It's been over a month now of much improved mood, hopefully this will stick.
I don't think I can transmit this feeling by explaining it, since it's something you can only decide for yourself, but I made the choice to focus on the positive. I still keep the cynical realness in the back of my mind, should I need it, but I don't want to spend most of my time there anymore.
It's been over a month now of much improved mood, hopefully this will stick.
Getting into Buddhist philosophy has helped me a lot with this. I'm no bubbly positive spirit or anything but I feel much more content and present over the last few months where I've finally dove in. Ram Dass is known for saying something along the lines of "You spend all of your time loving or hating things. Why not just love everything. It's easier."
If you're interested I'd recommend reading Thic Naht Hahn, Tolle, the Bhagavad Gita (get it with explanations, The Essence Of is great), etc.
I've found that whether or not I practice the teachings just continuing to read about them keeps me mindful.
And daily metta meditation.
If you're interested I'd recommend reading Thic Naht Hahn, Tolle, the Bhagavad Gita (get it with explanations, The Essence Of is great), etc.
I've found that whether or not I practice the teachings just continuing to read about them keeps me mindful.
And daily metta meditation.
I'm a similar age to you and I feel that around 40 people start to detach from their ego. How people view you becomes less important, and as a result you become more comfortable in yourself.
This is hands down my favorite change as I've gotten older. I just don't worry about so many things that I used to, and find that it's easier to focus on a few things that really matter to me.
Granted I have far more responsibility than when I was in my 20's, so I think it it's basically a wash there, but at least I'm not stressing about things that seemed really important over a decade ago.
Granted I have far more responsibility than when I was in my 20's, so I think it it's basically a wash there, but at least I'm not stressing about things that seemed really important over a decade ago.
I am in my 50s and also have stopped to worry about stuff. I also don't worry anymore about things "I should achieve". It hasn't happened until now so it probably ain't gonna happen ever. It's a thin line to walk though. I see people who don't ever seem to be be content, keep chasing things that they most likely won't achieve and are very frustrated with this. My body is also not getting any better so I have accepted that I shouldn't try stuff I did in my 20s.
To me it's a source of content and acceptance but depending on your personality it can go the other way.
I still have things I want to do but if they don't happen I am OK with that.
To me it's a source of content and acceptance but depending on your personality it can go the other way.
I still have things I want to do but if they don't happen I am OK with that.
> It hasn't happened until now so it probably ain't gonna happen ever.
I think it's perfectly fine to be content with this perspective.
However, just a note that many, many people and figures past and present fell into their zone for the first time even in their 60s.
I think it's perfectly fine to be content with this perspective.
However, just a note that many, many people and figures past and present fell into their zone for the first time even in their 60s.
That may happen and would be great. I just don't think it's worth to put pressure on myself to achieve something I haven't been able to do for 30 years.
For example: I would love to run my own small company. But I have learned repeatedly that I am no good at selling and also not very creative in coming up with new products. So now I am content with a regular job.
For example: I would love to run my own small company. But I have learned repeatedly that I am no good at selling and also not very creative in coming up with new products. So now I am content with a regular job.
I have literally written and erased 3 very long replies to your reply! I hope to one day be this wise in my later years.
There is a moment when you realise you can't change shit, and so you just accept that's the way it is.
That combined with being able to sift through the shit storm that life throws at you, for the ideals you want and ignoring the rest, helps a lot.
That combined with being able to sift through the shit storm that life throws at you, for the ideals you want and ignoring the rest, helps a lot.
Agreed, I think in your 20s and 30s you’re generally driven to find your place in the world - career, marriage, parenting. By our 40s, most of us have found at least some of that, care less about the rest and are able to have a better perspective. Maybe not happier in the sense of elation, but more content, more aware of what you do have, and more ok with not being the superbeing you thought you needed to be to be happy.
What helps me is the idea of having a fixed amount of “worries”, which you received at birth. At the beginning you have plenty and you spent your “worries” on all the things.
And later you realize you just have this amount of “worries” left. So you better spend them wisely. ;)
And later you realize you just have this amount of “worries” left. So you better spend them wisely. ;)
[deleted]
Around 40 you realize that you'll die relatively soon, so a lot of things come into perspective and stop worry you. Yolo attitude helps to live happier.
53, one kid in high school.
I'm not going to try for an answer here, but I will mention an important confounding factor in studies like these: increasing resistance to peer pressure. I find that older people are better able to resist the "work until you drop" or "keep up with the Joneses" messages that society gives us. We're a bit more careful about avoiding things that drag us down and seeking/developing things that pull us up. Not all, of course. Some are surely worse off in all of these ways than any kid fresh out of college. But on average I think older people are better at maintaining their sense of well-being, independently of whether their actual circumstances are better or worse.
I'm not going to try for an answer here, but I will mention an important confounding factor in studies like these: increasing resistance to peer pressure. I find that older people are better able to resist the "work until you drop" or "keep up with the Joneses" messages that society gives us. We're a bit more careful about avoiding things that drag us down and seeking/developing things that pull us up. Not all, of course. Some are surely worse off in all of these ways than any kid fresh out of college. But on average I think older people are better at maintaining their sense of well-being, independently of whether their actual circumstances are better or worse.
Yikes!
Former USSR component States are just......horrific.
The literature of the culture is not very happy ending-ish.
Interesting to see happiness in US females, a very solid and consistent lifelong upward trend after bottoming out in the late 20’s, early 30’s.
Vast difference from Western European women, almost a mirror opposite.
Western European men are almost a lifelong flatline.
I wonder why that is?
From some reason I’m left with a random thought along the lines of “egalitarianism of happiness” for Western European males.
Former USSR component States are just......horrific.
The literature of the culture is not very happy ending-ish.
Interesting to see happiness in US females, a very solid and consistent lifelong upward trend after bottoming out in the late 20’s, early 30’s.
Vast difference from Western European women, almost a mirror opposite.
Western European men are almost a lifelong flatline.
I wonder why that is?
From some reason I’m left with a random thought along the lines of “egalitarianism of happiness” for Western European males.
In Germany I've seen several women first-hand start to become unhappy in their 60's and 70's because they now have to deal with their retired husband full-time.
German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age, and more quick to challenge things they view as incorrect than they would in their youth. This turns into constant harassment for some wives.
German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age, and more quick to challenge things they view as incorrect than they would in their youth. This turns into constant harassment for some wives.
> German men, in my experience, tend to get quite obstinate in their old age
Perhaps, the men are also depressed? Maybe if they feel like they're not useful any more because they don't work.
Perhaps, the men are also depressed? Maybe if they feel like they're not useful any more because they don't work.
I think that's a huge deal, and it's not just German men. Finding a new purpose after having a clear-cut one in the form of a job is something I think can be the difference between a depressed post-work experience or a happy one.
It could be worse in Germans, though. My (limited) observations of them say that they're on average more conscientious, work and duty-oriented than my fellow Poles. And, when the work/duty ends, it's easier for your life to become hollow.
In ex-USSR you need to account for a drastic change of world that 40+ years old had to live through, complete change of world views and moral, loss of social and financial security, and all other horrors of transition period. Very few people got out of it feeling better. As old people die and younger generations replace them I presume that the graph will start to look more and more like the other countries.
Agreed and good point!
1991-2000 would have been a horrible time for the vast majority of Russians and citizens of former satellites.
Civil freedoms may have improved, but not economic or health outcomes.
Especially for late career or retirees.
1991-2000 would have been a horrible time for the vast majority of Russians and citizens of former satellites.
Civil freedoms may have improved, but not economic or health outcomes.
Especially for late career or retirees.
1991-2000 was economically by far the best recent decade in my ex-USSR central european country.
The collapse of communism opened up significant opportunities for wealth accumulation, but this mostly benefited younger people who were ambitious and willing to bend the rules.
> ambitious and willing to bend the rules.
Please don't call organized crime a "willingness to bend the rules."
Please don't call organized crime a "willingness to bend the rules."
There is very little wealth accumulation happening in CIS countries post-collapse for the vast majority of people. The wealthy young are usually just children of wealthy adults, of whom there aren't many.
There was a marginal uptrend in happiness and prosperity in the 2004-2008 era, when oil prices were high (for countries that had oil production), but mostly, inequality has been skyrocketing and salaries have been flat for a decade now if not more.
Some countries have never really climbed out of poverty after the collapse of communism (Ukraine, Moldova, Tajikistan, etc.)
There was a marginal uptrend in happiness and prosperity in the 2004-2008 era, when oil prices were high (for countries that had oil production), but mostly, inequality has been skyrocketing and salaries have been flat for a decade now if not more.
Some countries have never really climbed out of poverty after the collapse of communism (Ukraine, Moldova, Tajikistan, etc.)
Note that India's highest point is lower than former-USSR's lowest.
I know India is still developing, but I wouldn't have thought it was that bad.
I know India is still developing, but I wouldn't have thought it was that bad.
Inequality is deeply ingrained into Indian culture. The bureaucracy is crushing, making it extremely difficult to start a business or improve your station in life without money and the right connections. India is not a place where “all men are created equal” — your value and station in life is largely determined by your caste, birth location, and family name. The people who escape the trap are the exceptions that prove the rule.
I suspect that a combination of an inefficient bureaucracy (and the accompanying loss of opportunity and competitiveness in international markets) and gross social inequality has a large part to do with it — especially considering ~70% of the population lives in relatively poor villages dotting the countryside.
I suspect that a combination of an inefficient bureaucracy (and the accompanying loss of opportunity and competitiveness in international markets) and gross social inequality has a large part to do with it — especially considering ~70% of the population lives in relatively poor villages dotting the countryside.
I'd say hundreds of millions living in crushing poverty is the biggest contributing factor. You'd have to be really tough to not be miserable in such circumstances.
I mean, the crushing poverty is the result of the caste system and the accompanying wealth inequality. If it were just poverty, it might be possible to dig out.
The lowest castes are effectively slave laborers. They’re willing to travel to places like Dubai to sell themselves into actual slavery for a chance to send one of their kids to a good school. They’re not dumb or unaware of the world outside their impoverished lives, they just have no access to it themselves.
The lowest castes are effectively slave laborers. They’re willing to travel to places like Dubai to sell themselves into actual slavery for a chance to send one of their kids to a good school. They’re not dumb or unaware of the world outside their impoverished lives, they just have no access to it themselves.
Lots of cultural and societal differences.
US vs Western Europe: worse work-life balance, bigger families with more kids at an earlier age, more stay-at-home moms. Eventually the kids grow up, one or both of the parents advance in the career and happiness goes up. On the other hand, Europeans look for kids at an age where they already feel financially stable.
US vs Western Europe: worse work-life balance, bigger families with more kids at an earlier age, more stay-at-home moms. Eventually the kids grow up, one or both of the parents advance in the career and happiness goes up. On the other hand, Europeans look for kids at an age where they already feel financially stable.
I think it’s what I call the “trough of disallusionment”.
For women in the US at least, your late 20s / early 30s are spent grappling with the reality that the job market is still grossly unfair. Women get fewer opportunities, lower pay and less power. It’s fucking depressing because there is still retaliation for speaking up — any women in power got there by propagating the status quo, and they’re honestly more likely to retaliate. I also suspect part of the increase in happiness is due to the number of women who extricate themselves from such situations and find happiness and satisfaction elsewhere.
I suspect Europe simply pushes the “trough of disallusionment” out further. Sure, there are stronger protections in the workplace, but they only really protect the people at the bottom. As you grow older, the burdens just accumulate.
For women in the US at least, your late 20s / early 30s are spent grappling with the reality that the job market is still grossly unfair. Women get fewer opportunities, lower pay and less power. It’s fucking depressing because there is still retaliation for speaking up — any women in power got there by propagating the status quo, and they’re honestly more likely to retaliate. I also suspect part of the increase in happiness is due to the number of women who extricate themselves from such situations and find happiness and satisfaction elsewhere.
I suspect Europe simply pushes the “trough of disallusionment” out further. Sure, there are stronger protections in the workplace, but they only really protect the people at the bottom. As you grow older, the burdens just accumulate.
I'm 31, have a son and a second one on the way. Happiness is a very bad term to describe quality of life for me, as I feel happy often especially around my family and friends.
On the flip-side the pressures of my financial situation (ok paying job with stock options, involuntary stay-at-home-partner, living in an expensive german city by job requirement, no savings and some debt because of multiple failed startups in my 20s), job responsibility and ambitions (being a good dad while trying to achieve notable success business-wise) have me constantly worrying and doubting myself lately.
I hope in my 40s I've managed to reduce these pressures by either having achieved the success I was looking for or having accepted my position in life so I can live without the constant anxiety of my dreams slowly withering in front of my eyes and solely focus on the things that are enjoyable in the present. With this in mind I can absolutely see my 40s being more enjoyable then my 20s and 30s, either way.
On the flip-side the pressures of my financial situation (ok paying job with stock options, involuntary stay-at-home-partner, living in an expensive german city by job requirement, no savings and some debt because of multiple failed startups in my 20s), job responsibility and ambitions (being a good dad while trying to achieve notable success business-wise) have me constantly worrying and doubting myself lately.
I hope in my 40s I've managed to reduce these pressures by either having achieved the success I was looking for or having accepted my position in life so I can live without the constant anxiety of my dreams slowly withering in front of my eyes and solely focus on the things that are enjoyable in the present. With this in mind I can absolutely see my 40s being more enjoyable then my 20s and 30s, either way.
What a poorly researched article. More Americans than ever are taking anti-depressants. The trend markedly increases with age.
https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi...
"Among both males and females, the study found that people aged 40 and older are more likely to take antidepressants than younger people."
"The study also found that women are two and a half times more likely to take antidepressant medication as males, while 23 percent of women ages 40 to 59 take antidepressants, more than in any other age or sex group."
https://psychcentral.com/news/2011/10/25/antidepressant-use-...
https://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi...
"Among both males and females, the study found that people aged 40 and older are more likely to take antidepressants than younger people."
"The study also found that women are two and a half times more likely to take antidepressant medication as males, while 23 percent of women ages 40 to 59 take antidepressants, more than in any other age or sex group."
https://psychcentral.com/news/2011/10/25/antidepressant-use-...
The Economist article includes wide-ranging information on the relationship between age and happiness in various parts of the world. The information you've provided addresses a small portion of that (the percentage of the population on anti-depressants as they age).
A population can be both more happy with age and (as a percentage) on more anti-depressants. Some potential explanations:
1. As we age, we have greater access to healthcare (money/quality employment/government), so those needing anti-depressants are able to get them more regularly
2. Even with access to healthcare, there may be greater willingness to make changes in life and confront unhappiness as we age
3. Perhaps those who age are happier overall because they're on anti-depressants. The Economist article doesn't address this possibility.
I feel like the flaw in your argument may be that increased anti-depressant usage among older adults indicates increased depression as a person ages. That doesn't take into account other factors that might cause anti-depressant usage to rise with age.
A population can be both more happy with age and (as a percentage) on more anti-depressants. Some potential explanations:
1. As we age, we have greater access to healthcare (money/quality employment/government), so those needing anti-depressants are able to get them more regularly
2. Even with access to healthcare, there may be greater willingness to make changes in life and confront unhappiness as we age
3. Perhaps those who age are happier overall because they're on anti-depressants. The Economist article doesn't address this possibility.
I feel like the flaw in your argument may be that increased anti-depressant usage among older adults indicates increased depression as a person ages. That doesn't take into account other factors that might cause anti-depressant usage to rise with age.
That brings up an interesting philosophical question. If drugs are what causes "happiness", are you really happy?
If you are sad and depressed and have to take medication to be "happy", can we really say you are happy?
If my car can go 200 mph, I wouldn't say I can move 200 mph. But then again drugs change you in a way that cars don't.
Of course there is the question of what is happiness and how can we objectively and empirically qualify it. So the entire question could be moot.
If you are sad and depressed and have to take medication to be "happy", can we really say you are happy?
If my car can go 200 mph, I wouldn't say I can move 200 mph. But then again drugs change you in a way that cars don't.
Of course there is the question of what is happiness and how can we objectively and empirically qualify it. So the entire question could be moot.
I'm going to liken your question to a similar but slightly different example:
If I have diabetes, and I need insulin to be "healthy", can I ever truly be healthy?
You can swap that for any condition and any requirement of a substance, or even a requirement not to consume a substance. I personally feel like all your question does is invalidate the use of often needed medications, treatments, or other potentially stigmatized practices by people who need those things.
If I had depression, or anxiety, and someone was basically asking if I can ever be the same as others because I need medication, I think that would hit me incredibly hard. It doesn't feel like accepting or supportive language to me.
You can swap that for any condition and any requirement of a substance, or even a requirement not to consume a substance. I personally feel like all your question does is invalidate the use of often needed medications, treatments, or other potentially stigmatized practices by people who need those things.
If I had depression, or anxiety, and someone was basically asking if I can ever be the same as others because I need medication, I think that would hit me incredibly hard. It doesn't feel like accepting or supportive language to me.
I'm not trying to be or not to be accepting or supporting. I was just trying to have a philosophical debate on what I felt was an interesting topic. So people's feelings weren't really a consideration of mine.
Your diabetes/insulin example is even more interesting than mine. As a person of color with higher risk of diabetes, I have family members who are diabetic and need insulin. Would I consider my diabetic family members healthy? Do they consider themselves to be healthy? If they were healthy, they wouldn't be diabetic or need insulin. But taking insulin makes them healthy. But then if they were healthy, they wouldn't need insulin, which they do. You really gave me something to think about and maybe even talk to my family members about. Thanks.
Even more, if there is a pill to cure diabetes, is a person who takes the pill more healthy than the person taking insulin?
Your diabetes/insulin example is even more interesting than mine. As a person of color with higher risk of diabetes, I have family members who are diabetic and need insulin. Would I consider my diabetic family members healthy? Do they consider themselves to be healthy? If they were healthy, they wouldn't be diabetic or need insulin. But taking insulin makes them healthy. But then if they were healthy, they wouldn't need insulin, which they do. You really gave me something to think about and maybe even talk to my family members about. Thanks.
Even more, if there is a pill to cure diabetes, is a person who takes the pill more healthy than the person taking insulin?
Antidepressant medications do not "cause happiness". They make it somewhat more possible (when they work at all, which is not a guarantee for a given drug in any individual) for a person to find ways of becoming less depressed. These are not performance-enhancing drugs; it is wildly inaccurate to compare antidepressant meds to steroids or stimulants (both of which _also_ have legitimate medical uses, but that's another topic). Taking an antidepressant when you are clinically depressed is much more comparable to taking anti-seizure medication if you are epileptic.
I would argue yes. Happiness is just a chemical reaction in your brain, whether it's through natural environmental factors or drugs, it's the same reaction.
The issue is that we've yet to find a drug that can provide unlimited happiness without side effects that make taking the drug not worth it.
If there is no tangible difference in the result what is the point in the distinction between how you got there?
That doesn't necessarily mean they're less happy.
It could be that the antidepressants are working. Or it could be that people over 40 have had enough time to accept that they have an issue that needs treatment. Or it could be that this subset of unhappy people is real but other trends outweigh it.
It could be that the antidepressants are working. Or it could be that people over 40 have had enough time to accept that they have an issue that needs treatment. Or it could be that this subset of unhappy people is real but other trends outweigh it.
That the prevalence of a chronic illness increases with age is completely unsurprising. The fact that depression is (incorrectly) thought to be the opposite of happiness is a coincidence. I'm not sure that people get happier with age, but I am sure that depression statistics cannot disprove it (within reasonable bounds. Obviously it would if it turned out everyone over 40 were clinically depressed.)
39 and definitely agree. 20th, 30 - living in a poor country, settling in US, small kids, uncertainty.
39 - Silicon Valley salary, comfortable savings, six digits kids college account. Fun job, lots of respect for OSS contributions, great food, biking, fitness, luxury car. On top of that - coming home every day to kids who agree to play any online game I want! Main source of anxiety - aging parents living in a far-away country...
39 - Silicon Valley salary, comfortable savings, six digits kids college account. Fun job, lots of respect for OSS contributions, great food, biking, fitness, luxury car. On top of that - coming home every day to kids who agree to play any online game I want! Main source of anxiety - aging parents living in a far-away country...
My father in his twenties in communist Bulgaria during the late 1970s:
- lands a stable engineering job in a new factory in a small town right out of university
- housing not an issue, a big apartment close to the factory is provided by the enterprise
- has two kids with free health and child-care (zero street crime, drug usage unheard of)
- the authorities help mom find a job as a teacher in close proximity
- no fancy food, cars or clothing, but still, no big shortages, either
- lands a stable engineering job in a new factory in a small town right out of university
- housing not an issue, a big apartment close to the factory is provided by the enterprise
- has two kids with free health and child-care (zero street crime, drug usage unheard of)
- the authorities help mom find a job as a teacher in close proximity
- no fancy food, cars or clothing, but still, no big shortages, either
Anecdata, but my grandfather (now passed) was able to support a family of 8 children with a flight engineer job in Ukraine between late 50s to early 80s.
Free housing, international travel, crazy paid leave. 8 healthy successful children, no one starved.
I can't imagine being able to support more than 2 kids ever, without somehow becoming super-successful through sheer luck.
Free housing, international travel, crazy paid leave. 8 healthy successful children, no one starved.
I can't imagine being able to support more than 2 kids ever, without somehow becoming super-successful through sheer luck.
People used to spend much less on children. Might've been better for everyone.
Keep in mind that this is a survey of people of each age living during the 2010s. Not a graph of how each generation's happiness has changed as they aged.
Yeah that ruins the data for me.
The graph in the US looks like "oh I hit 66, now I can retire, yay!".
Just taking a guess here but if you happened to be 25 with enough money to retire for life, you would have an even higher happiness rating since you achieved financial independence with your whole life ahead of you.
I'm almost done with my 30s and I don't feel that much different than my 20s. If anything I cared less about things as a teenager. As you get older you tend to have more things to think and worry about.
Just taking a guess here but if you happened to be 25 with enough money to retire for life, you would have an even higher happiness rating since you achieved financial independence with your whole life ahead of you.
I'm almost done with my 30s and I don't feel that much different than my 20s. If anything I cared less about things as a teenager. As you get older you tend to have more things to think and worry about.
I'm personally much happier, but this is due to the fact that:
1. I make a lot more money now so I'm financially stable
2. I've transitioned to a career that is rewarding
3. I don't have as many existential fears/anxieties
4. I have the drive and discipline to do what I need to do
Not everyone experiences these, and I'd imagine that without them, my 30's would be far worse than my 20's.
1. I make a lot more money now so I'm financially stable
2. I've transitioned to a career that is rewarding
3. I don't have as many existential fears/anxieties
4. I have the drive and discipline to do what I need to do
Not everyone experiences these, and I'd imagine that without them, my 30's would be far worse than my 20's.
42 years old here and I think so far my best years were in my mid 30s when I was old enough to put things into perspective, financially more relaxed, autonomous, still healthy and willing to change or contribute positively to this world, still wanting to explore.
But for me, health issues started to appear in my late 30s and also I felt reaching 40 years old that my energy is depleted. Also I am actually less relaxed especially working in IT because I am starting to feel like a dinosaur (I still do software development). It might sound pessimistic but I think my best years are behind me.
But for me, health issues started to appear in my late 30s and also I felt reaching 40 years old that my energy is depleted. Also I am actually less relaxed especially working in IT because I am starting to feel like a dinosaur (I still do software development). It might sound pessimistic but I think my best years are behind me.
I felt the same way in my early 40s. That feeling passed though and in hindsight doesn't really seem to have had much real substance.
I switched to a plant based diet a few years ago and that feels like it rewound the clock physically about ten years. It takes a bit of effort but the payoff has been massive.
I switched to a plant based diet a few years ago and that feels like it rewound the clock physically about ten years. It takes a bit of effort but the payoff has been massive.
Hey I did the plant based diet too and I feel great, basically less heavy somehow. And maybe related, I'm not sure, but less issues with teeth
Self-reported? Asking questions sure is cheaper than doing fMRI scans, but cultural differences might result in significantly higher noise, making different generations’ and countries’ results uncomparable.
What makes you think fMRI scans would produce better results? What would they even be looking for?
I'm not sure I got happier, but I'm definitely differently happy, and probably happier in a more sustainable way.
I'm financially healthier, my job is better, I'm physically in MUCH better shape at 49 than I was at 40 (like, 60 pounds lighter?), and have a better sense of myself.
I'm financially healthier, my job is better, I'm physically in MUCH better shape at 49 than I was at 40 (like, 60 pounds lighter?), and have a better sense of myself.
54 here. Empty nester with a stable personal and work life. I feel happy most times, a bit of envy when I see younger folks. Borderline financially stable going into retirement. If I stay healthy for the next decade and keep working I will be OK financially.. not yet there. Mortgage 70% paid off.
I feel 'mature' and at peace, now, and sometimes kick myself for not getting into that state at a younger age.
I still enjoy fulltime-coding, no carpal tunnels yet..30 years at the keyboard. (thanks to a mouse/windows/apple aversion). Sometimes I think I've 'failed' in a positive sort of way, by not being aggressive and going into corporate management. Other times, I wonder why am I still coding, my friends all seem to be managing (but cursing their jobs at the same time).
I especially feel good when I see myself as being reasonably healthy and active. Like others, I am getting to accept and look past the things I won't achieve. Strangely, many things (both technical/conceptual and life-related) seem easily grasped, the more I relax and slow down.
I feel 'mature' and at peace, now, and sometimes kick myself for not getting into that state at a younger age.
I still enjoy fulltime-coding, no carpal tunnels yet..30 years at the keyboard. (thanks to a mouse/windows/apple aversion). Sometimes I think I've 'failed' in a positive sort of way, by not being aggressive and going into corporate management. Other times, I wonder why am I still coding, my friends all seem to be managing (but cursing their jobs at the same time).
I especially feel good when I see myself as being reasonably healthy and active. Like others, I am getting to accept and look past the things I won't achieve. Strangely, many things (both technical/conceptual and life-related) seem easily grasped, the more I relax and slow down.
50 here.
Married, 2 teenager kids, all in excellent physical and mental health, extended family and friends, no mortgage, good savings, own a profitable company, running a small offshoot startup, Angel co-invest in a handful of startups, chair a veteran support charity, and still serve in the military in a limited specialist capacity.
Beyond my family, I tend to swap around with the above with 1-2 of the above list “deep” and the rest of the list “shallow” in terms of my time/attention.
So my life is like my kindle reading list and podcast queue, overflowing and growing faster than I can ever possibly consume it.
Whack-a-mole comes to mind.
But I’m smiling while I’m playing this chaotic game I created for myself.
Happiness is in my life, but so is melancholy.
I’ve climbed some mountains(literally and figuratively), regretfully abandoned a few peaks, but remain focused on the mountains yet to climb while I am still able.
I view happiness as the pursuit of it, journey towards it, and the memorable idiosyncrasies of life discovered along the way, rather than the temporary arrival at a destination called happiness.
So journey over destination.
Married, 2 teenager kids, all in excellent physical and mental health, extended family and friends, no mortgage, good savings, own a profitable company, running a small offshoot startup, Angel co-invest in a handful of startups, chair a veteran support charity, and still serve in the military in a limited specialist capacity.
Beyond my family, I tend to swap around with the above with 1-2 of the above list “deep” and the rest of the list “shallow” in terms of my time/attention.
So my life is like my kindle reading list and podcast queue, overflowing and growing faster than I can ever possibly consume it.
Whack-a-mole comes to mind.
But I’m smiling while I’m playing this chaotic game I created for myself.
Happiness is in my life, but so is melancholy.
I’ve climbed some mountains(literally and figuratively), regretfully abandoned a few peaks, but remain focused on the mountains yet to climb while I am still able.
I view happiness as the pursuit of it, journey towards it, and the memorable idiosyncrasies of life discovered along the way, rather than the temporary arrival at a destination called happiness.
So journey over destination.
Turning 40 this year with my first kid expected on my birthday. I've progressively become "happier" with each decade (maybe half decade, actually). That's not solely because of this supposed wisdom that comes with age, but much more because I put a lot of time and effort into myself. The flip side of aging is that a lot of my friends never outgrew "bad habits" from younger years and now they are stuck with them. A lot of drinking, quite a bit of pill use, and a lack of purpose outside of work/hanging out/consuming entertainment. I also see older folks fall into the trappings of tying their "happiness" to things that can be purchased, which of course isn't actually happiness.
In the US at least those who are retired now won the jackpot historically. Those born in the 40s and 50s experienced the greatest increase in personal wealth ever. Of those born in the late 1940s, 90% eventually made more money than their parents at a given age. Of those born in the early 1980s, only 50% have achieved that. I'm actually somewhat surprised that happiness is as high among the youth as it is. I can chalk that up to good health and ignorance about their financial futures. A lot of happiness gets "pulled forward" from future happiness, financially.
I would like to see the same study about millenials in their 40s in 20 years to know how bad we have it in comparison to current 40s..
Im currently in top 5% earning in my country and i still cant afford a good house and the same quality of life level as my parents..
Dont wanna even think about the majority. Those peoole will be living in dept or month to month till the last day of their lifes.
Im currently in top 5% earning in my country and i still cant afford a good house and the same quality of life level as my parents..
Dont wanna even think about the majority. Those peoole will be living in dept or month to month till the last day of their lifes.
Self reported happiness ratings measure mostly just a culture's relationship to arbitrary numerical rating systems. What does "ok" feel like on a scale of 1 to 10? 5? 8?
I would even ask "what's the difference between 7 and 8?" Or 2 and 3.
Maybe that's how my brain works, but I always found "1 to 10" scales utterly stupid. Unless you have super clear criteria for each level. I always favor "1 to 5" scales for this reason. Way easier for me to reason in terms of "terrible, bad, ok, good, awesome".
Maybe that's how my brain works, but I always found "1 to 10" scales utterly stupid. Unless you have super clear criteria for each level. I always favor "1 to 5" scales for this reason. Way easier for me to reason in terms of "terrible, bad, ok, good, awesome".
Happiness is relative. You don't need an age indicator to be happy. Don't wait for 40.
Does the study account for survivorship bias ?
Exactly. A lot of people's lives get better with age, some don't.
I think it does get happier (but a different type of happiness nonetheless) but it comes at a cost. My 30's taught me to care more for fewer and fewer things and focus on what I really want. I think we become wiser as we learn from our mistakes in our 20s and 30s. The cost I'd say is less energy levels.
Just turned 40 this week. I don't know if I'm happy then when I turned 30, but I am less stressed.
I had typed out a long paragraph about why I'm less stressed, but I realized the tl;dr is - I figured out what matters to me, and, more importantly, what doesn't. When you figure out what's NOT important, it's like a big weight being off your shoulders.
That and probably decreasing testosterone levels ;)
I had typed out a long paragraph about why I'm less stressed, but I realized the tl;dr is - I figured out what matters to me, and, more importantly, what doesn't. When you figure out what's NOT important, it's like a big weight being off your shoulders.
That and probably decreasing testosterone levels ;)
I'm not quite 40, but am happier now than when I was younger. A key part of that is financial. After 20 years of working I have a nice nest egg saved up. It is not enough enough that I can retire, but it is enough that I don't have to worry.
When I was younger, I was always stressed about how I would pay the bills. When layoffs would go around I would be super stressed , worrying about what if it happens to me. I'd also be stuck dealing with some asshole boss because I needed the money again causing more stress.
Right now there is a rumor going around that my company is not doing too well financially. In the past I would have been worried about it. Now my only thought is if I do get laid off, is where I do some traveling to. If it is during the summer, think I'll go spend some time in the Canadian Rockies. If during the winter, I'll go back to Australia.
When I was younger, I was always stressed about how I would pay the bills. When layoffs would go around I would be super stressed , worrying about what if it happens to me. I'd also be stuck dealing with some asshole boss because I needed the money again causing more stress.
Right now there is a rumor going around that my company is not doing too well financially. In the past I would have been worried about it. Now my only thought is if I do get laid off, is where I do some traveling to. If it is during the summer, think I'll go spend some time in the Canadian Rockies. If during the winter, I'll go back to Australia.
I'm in my late 20s and a nest egg is years away, but having a a basic emergency fund and financial safety net did wonders for my peace of mind. For those who haven't done it yet, I think it's the most important financial goal to hit as early in your career as you can.
Long-term disability insurance and life insurance are nice to have too. Patio11 has been preaching this [1] but it took me a while to really get it. The technical detail of "own occupation" is really important here.
[1]: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/988094196274769920
Long-term disability insurance and life insurance are nice to have too. Patio11 has been preaching this [1] but it took me a while to really get it. The technical detail of "own occupation" is really important here.
[1]: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/988094196274769920
Yes long term disability is a must have. I usually get it through my employer.
When I was laid off last year I did have the option to continue the disability insurance, but it was a bit more expensive that what I was paying as an employee. IIRC it went from $50/month to $100/month.
What is nice is that my new employer picks up the tab 100%, but it is only 60%. Usually in the past I would pay a bit extra to get 75%, but that is not an option.
I've never thought about private disability insurance before, but it is something that I should look into.
When I was laid off last year I did have the option to continue the disability insurance, but it was a bit more expensive that what I was paying as an employee. IIRC it went from $50/month to $100/month.
What is nice is that my new employer picks up the tab 100%, but it is only 60%. Usually in the past I would pay a bit extra to get 75%, but that is not an option.
I've never thought about private disability insurance before, but it is something that I should look into.
I think this rating does not take into consideration local culture. For example, I don't think India has a culture that makes you introspect whether one is 'happy'. How about asking whether one is unhappy? My suspicion is that India will score low (as in, not unhappy) on that also.
My happiness level increased a lot after 40. My hypothesis is that the this is because it took me that long to realize that I'm better off living my life on my own terms and paying a lot less attention to what others think of how I live my life, what my interests are, and so forth.
after-40? that's mid-life crisis, period.
parents are getting really old, kids are still teenagers, jobs are not as secure anymore, physical condition is starting to show its age.
whatever it is, just live with a good mood, everyday could be a better day, no matter how old that is.
parents are getting really old, kids are still teenagers, jobs are not as secure anymore, physical condition is starting to show its age.
whatever it is, just live with a good mood, everyday could be a better day, no matter how old that is.
The strong continuous up slope after 60 or so in the US makes sense. Retirees in general have it really good here. They are a massive voting block with a lot of political power, allowing them to tip the scales in their favor financially, from taxes to federal and state subsidies/programs which entirely benefit older folks.
I’m surprised that “women in their 20s” happiness level is so low. I always thought of that demographic as living life on “easy mode”. They are highly educated compared to average, still have their health, energy, and looks, and without as much pressure to do the career thing as similarly aged men. Maybe just showing my own biases.
I’m surprised that “women in their 20s” happiness level is so low. I always thought of that demographic as living life on “easy mode”. They are highly educated compared to average, still have their health, energy, and looks, and without as much pressure to do the career thing as similarly aged men. Maybe just showing my own biases.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrS...
This is a really interesting series that I've been getting into. John Varvaeke is seriously underrated on YouTube and this series about awakening from the meaning crisis explains a lot about how modern society is focusing on the wrong things. Highly recommended!
This is a really interesting series that I've been getting into. John Varvaeke is seriously underrated on YouTube and this series about awakening from the meaning crisis explains a lot about how modern society is focusing on the wrong things. Highly recommended!
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Not really age-related. But, I definitely now believe concussions affect happiness/depression. As someone in my late 40s who has endure a few concussions, and looking back, can almost definitively state that this physical condition has a part in my mental state. So by correlation...I don't think the question is anything but plausible.
No. 2 kids, just took a huge loan that will take 25 years to pay of (I’ll be 67). One heart attack (stress related) under the belt. Working 10-12 a day in a shitty country. Almost no savings.
I see successful guys answering in a “look at me how great I am” style. FU
I see successful guys answering in a “look at me how great I am” style. FU
A while back, a longtime friend posted a photo of 21 year old me on Facebook (over 30 years ago now). He asked what would surprise 21 year old me the most about today's me. I said "Mostly that I keep calling him 'dumbass'."
I have never associated 40 year olds and older with happiness at all. If the headline said grumpier I would agree.
That is because those of us who are older and happier tend to be less vocal. Go be young, be silly, be loud, make mistakes. The happy old folks will just smile and let you be, knowing that nobody can help but be who they are, and be the age that they are.
But the unhappy ones - they will grump at you.
But the unhappy ones - they will grump at you.
I turned 40 today, so this is good news.
Almost 42, I believe I'm much more content than happy. That's what has made all the difference.
I literally laughed out loud at how the former USSR states happiness just flatlines as time goes on
In the USSR, you don't look for happiness, happiness looks for you.
I know you meant this as a joke but there's some applicability here. Seeking happiness can produce a lot of negative emotions, as you become very aware that many other people are way happier than you (or at the very least, show off a high level of happiness while hiding the details). It's possible to get into this state where things are never happy enough in this pursuit of happiness.
But all the happy people I know have a deep appreciation for the little things in life, a gratitude for whatever good comes their way, no matter how slim it is. In that respect, they are optimizing for allowing all bits of happiness that comes their way to actually have an effect on them.
But all the happy people I know have a deep appreciation for the little things in life, a gratitude for whatever good comes their way, no matter how slim it is. In that respect, they are optimizing for allowing all bits of happiness that comes their way to actually have an effect on them.
Growing up in a former Eastern bloc country transitioning towards capitalism (Bulgaria), I was able to witness the change in people's behaviours and social expectations. Greed and arrogance had suddenly become the order of the day in the 1990s, in exchange for the ability to gain status and material possessions previously unavailable (Western cars, modern clothing, etc.).
As a result, our current society is much more atomised and the feeling of connectedness is lost to a large degree. In the past people looked at happiness as a way to exist in a group, now it's everyone's own game of "finding truth and happiness" (often at the cost of screwing up others, even people from your family).
As a result, our current society is much more atomised and the feeling of connectedness is lost to a large degree. In the past people looked at happiness as a way to exist in a group, now it's everyone's own game of "finding truth and happiness" (often at the cost of screwing up others, even people from your family).
Very similar thing happened in Poland. I remember growing up in the 80s in a typical soviet-style appartment block house of 30 flats. My mother used to know almost every family in the building, she roughly knew what was going on in their lives, sometimes helped them in small ways or have gotten the help from them. It was like a small village community. Partly it was dictated by neccessity - due to constant shortages of goods, it was crucial to have "connections", that could help you buy things like refrigerators, cars or even stood in line for bread for you.
After the transformation of 1989, which in Poland was performed by the government in the form of the "shock therapy" (their term), lots of inequality appeared almost right away. Some people did well, some were barely getting by, and some lost their livelihood and were in very bad shape. The community atmosphere of the building vanished, it started to become vandalized or occupied by drunkards/homeless. Ties between families have loosened, the "connections" became unnecessary as the material needs were now efficiently satisfied by the market forces and basic capitalism. The building is now just a bunch of people that share the same roof, but otherwise don't want to have anything to do with each other (as is standard in other capitalist countries).
After the transformation of 1989, which in Poland was performed by the government in the form of the "shock therapy" (their term), lots of inequality appeared almost right away. Some people did well, some were barely getting by, and some lost their livelihood and were in very bad shape. The community atmosphere of the building vanished, it started to become vandalized or occupied by drunkards/homeless. Ties between families have loosened, the "connections" became unnecessary as the material needs were now efficiently satisfied by the market forces and basic capitalism. The building is now just a bunch of people that share the same roof, but otherwise don't want to have anything to do with each other (as is standard in other capitalist countries).
I think you misread the graph. The former USSR states drops from 6 to 4.
depends heavily on your bank account
I certainly did not. But a sample size of 1 is insignificant, so there's that.
Make that 2.
Maybe unhappy people who are 40 and older are more likely to die?
Everyone 40 and older is more likely to die, regardless of how happy they are.
This is a little myopic, GP is clearly trying to posit that "there are less unhappy people above 40 because they are more death-prone than their happy peers".
I've seen some science headlines that sound like that's the case, but I haven't read the papers so take it with a dumptruck full of salt.
I've seen some science headlines that sound like that's the case, but I haven't read the papers so take it with a dumptruck full of salt.
What happens if you wait till your 40s before having kids?
You will be a old men when you have teenagers.
Sounds like a great combo.
But kids is always better then no kids.
So go for it.
Life finds ways.
Kids is not "always better then no kids". Not having kids means you have less stress & more free time.
Furthermore, there are some tough moral questions you need to answer when creating a living being in this world. It's unfortunate that having kids is the default and there seems to be very little public dialogue about the moral dimensions of it all.
Furthermore, there are some tough moral questions you need to answer when creating a living being in this world. It's unfortunate that having kids is the default and there seems to be very little public dialogue about the moral dimensions of it all.
There is something that goes off the rails, when you dont have at least one kid.
Look at people who do not have one in there elder years. Look at them driving around dogs in buggys, dressing them up like replacement toddlers, look at those faces, tell me that they are truely happy.
In the coldwar days, there where a lot of people who argued in a similar line- club of rome, end of days, and so they went and got a vasectomy. Which you can not easily reverse.
Result: Lots of sad faces, late stage in life. Sometimes logic doesent cut it, and this is one of those moments - dont break the chain of life, daughter/son - is one of this moments.
I dont encourage you to have many kids- one or two should do. But yes, having a navel, that links all the way to the first mamal, and see that history continue, something of one beeing immortal, learning to walk and talk - that is awesome.
Look at people who do not have one in there elder years. Look at them driving around dogs in buggys, dressing them up like replacement toddlers, look at those faces, tell me that they are truely happy.
In the coldwar days, there where a lot of people who argued in a similar line- club of rome, end of days, and so they went and got a vasectomy. Which you can not easily reverse.
Result: Lots of sad faces, late stage in life. Sometimes logic doesent cut it, and this is one of those moments - dont break the chain of life, daughter/son - is one of this moments.
I dont encourage you to have many kids- one or two should do. But yes, having a navel, that links all the way to the first mamal, and see that history continue, something of one beeing immortal, learning to walk and talk - that is awesome.
the way our society is structured, we need to have kids so someone will be around to do the work when we retire. this practical reality tends to short circuit those debates pretty quickly. it also raises a lot of uncomfortable questions like "I already have a kid, was that cruel?" or "if it's immoral to bring a life into the world, does that imply my own life isn't worth living?". people are quite adept at avoiding uncomfortable thoughts.
Morally, wouldn't it be better for the world if productive and intellectually curious families birthed and raised more kids, not less?
Has the research changed on kids/no kids? I remember from psychology class that - kids or no kids doesn't make a difference to life satisfaction. Having a partner does.
I thought psychologoy was by know a persona-non-grata to any discussion?
Psychology has a huge replication crisis, the whole quack science is heavily subverted by politics in its institutions- meaning they are under suspicion of pushing any study that runs against a "traditional" family value outcome?
Even if that outcome, could also be had by a non-traditional family?
I read a paper recently that suggested they are a net positive if you are wealthy enough. If you are struggling financially then not so much.
Several of the most interesting people I have known had older fathers who were active in their lives. I'd worry somewhat about degrading quality of sperm/DNA, but all that life experience (if learned from) can definitely help balance things out.
I certainly would have preferred to have parents who were older and more mature than the ones I did have. And when I think of my peers who had older parents I think they benefited.
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Interesting that in the former USSR states if person is old enough to have lived during communism you will be unhappy under capitalism and the more you lived in the previous system the harder is to get used to the new system.
That's exactly the opposite impression I get from literally everyone I know who has lived (as an adult) in the former USSR and its satellite states (including many people who currently live in eastern Europe). Whether they're "happy" or not I can't say but nobody seems to want to return to a world where you can't buy a light-bulb unless you know someone. Many of them often make grim jokes about what that world was like.
Are these people who have lived (a signficant portion of their critically-thinking lives) under Communism or have an impression (mostly from parents, education, upbringing etc.) of what it was like under Communism in the past, relative to current times.
I've certainly had the same impressions as you from friends, but most of them would be under 35/40.
I've certainly had the same impressions as you from friends, but most of them would be under 35/40.
Yes. I'm talking about people who are 50+.
I know one person who is like that (in Poland). Mostly, she's bitter about how much she is exploited under capitalism - she could only find illegal work, so she's paid below minimum wage, has only 5-10 days of paid vacation and basically no worker rights whatsoever. Plus she has to worry about being fired and starving on the street. Whereas under communism, the state was officially obliged with providing her with job, so there was no fear of unemployment.
Is the source research for this public or is it (like the full text of the article) also paywalled?
Have read the teaser abstract and leading diagrams, and my main curiosity is how the groupings break down granularly: e.g. former-USSR & "Western Europe" are both extremely! internally diverse. Given the averages for both, I wouldn't be surprised if some WE countries are even above 8, and if some former-USSR's are lower again.
* India, US and China are also internally diverse, but at least are each individual countries.
Have read the teaser abstract and leading diagrams, and my main curiosity is how the groupings break down granularly: e.g. former-USSR & "Western Europe" are both extremely! internally diverse. Given the averages for both, I wouldn't be surprised if some WE countries are even above 8, and if some former-USSR's are lower again.
* India, US and China are also internally diverse, but at least are each individual countries.
The article is almost complete junk. It has however served as a catalyst for a somewhat interesting discussion here.
Is this one case where Betteridge's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...) doesn't quite apply?
No.
I think it’s being old enough, to be financially independent enough, to not take shit from anyone.
47 and paid off mortgage this week. Zero debt and have 1 kids college saved up in cash, and low 7 figure retirement savings.
Still need a job for other kids college and medical insurance. I’ll keep working at my employer until I drop dead, as I like the technical work, but I’m on the 3 day plan now. 3 bad days in a row and I’m gone, and I made them aware of that.
47 and paid off mortgage this week. Zero debt and have 1 kids college saved up in cash, and low 7 figure retirement savings.
Still need a job for other kids college and medical insurance. I’ll keep working at my employer until I drop dead, as I like the technical work, but I’m on the 3 day plan now. 3 bad days in a row and I’m gone, and I made them aware of that.
What do you mean "3 bad days in a row" and you're gone?
That seems like an extremely fragile and precarious situation to put your employer into! No one likes ultimatums, it could hasten your termination.
That seems like an extremely fragile and precarious situation to put your employer into! No one likes ultimatums, it could hasten your termination.
“it could hasten your termination”
Yes, that’s part of the happiness; me not giving a shit. An employers ideal engineer is someone young with kids and a fat mortgage.
A financially independent graybeard with loads of institutional and domain knowledge; they have less control.
My employer has participated in stack ranking and walked out 25 year employees with 5 minutes notice. 3 days is my being generous.
Yes, that’s part of the happiness; me not giving a shit. An employers ideal engineer is someone young with kids and a fat mortgage.
A financially independent graybeard with loads of institutional and domain knowledge; they have less control.
My employer has participated in stack ranking and walked out 25 year employees with 5 minutes notice. 3 days is my being generous.
That "young kids & fat mortgage" is god to honest truth. I knew a manager that celebrated his reports buying their first cars or houses as it increased his leverage over them. Sickening, but true.
Turned around: their bad behavior/tantrums could hasten your leaving. Just as fair to point that out to them.
> it could hasten your termination
The point is to have enough saved up that you don't care. There is nothing more comfortable than the knowledge that you don't have to put up with BS from your employer, or for that matter from _any_ employer, one second longer than you feel like it.
The point is to have enough saved up that you don't care. There is nothing more comfortable than the knowledge that you don't have to put up with BS from your employer, or for that matter from _any_ employer, one second longer than you feel like it.
I’m pretty sure it’s better for your employer as well. I know once I wasn’t dependent on work I was happy to call out bullshit in a way I wouldn’t before.
One does wonder how much central role does puberty (rise and decline thereof) play in these happiness trends.
And note that arranged marriage is the norm over in India (thus explaining the inverse trend?).
And note that arranged marriage is the norm over in India (thus explaining the inverse trend?).
Why is Australia & Canada not in the graph?
All too happy, would depress everyone else.
overall i think each decade has had good and bad moments, i dont necessarily think collectively any decade has been better or worse than any other, just different types of good (and bad) and different experiences.
having a family has been a blessing for sure so perhaps that's one of the reasons why the results are such.
one thing i do think about, more often than i'd like, is when i get to a certain age where health has declined significantly, teeth have all fallen out, cartilage in all joints have worn out or thinned to the point where it hurts to walk, taste buds have recessed, risk of a heart attack or stroke increases, aside from having grandkids, quality of life has gone down the drain, i wonder if it's still worth it, somewhat morbis, and probably wont know until you get there.
i think the point is to enjoy the ride to eternity, every decade is a blessing so take the good with the bad