I was offered a job at Foxconn to assemble iPhones for $1.7 per hour(scmp.com)
scmp.com
I was offered a job at Foxconn to assemble iPhones for $1.7 per hour
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2188288/iphones-costs-us800-i-was-offered-job-foxconn-assemble-them
76 comments
The only surprise here is that this unflattering portrayal was published in SCMP. They are accused of becoming another mouthpiece for the CCP, but this indicates there may still be some editorial latitude.
> A poster in an agency describes job qualification for Foxconn workers: age between 16 and 40, ninth-grade diploma, no Tibetan and Uygur ethnicities.
Many damning things in the report but this straight up racism demands a firm response from Apple.
Many damning things in the report but this straight up racism demands a firm response from Apple.
Probably does demand a response, but this doesn't seem to be an "official" Foxconn policy:
> These conditions on ethnicity do not appear on the Foxconn website, but do adorn the walls of private job agencies hiring directly for the technology giant
> These conditions on ethnicity do not appear on the Foxconn website, but do adorn the walls of private job agencies hiring directly for the technology giant
Wouldn't be such a big deal if the Chinese weren't literally interning and exterminating Uyghurs. Calling this stuff racism is like calling Nazi Germany Alt-Right... Stops WAAAY short of framing the problem.
If you don't mind me pointing out the irony here: this is the epitome of "woke capital" - the issue isn't the inhumanly low wages, it's that the company policy is discriminatory towards who it will pay those wages...
It would be.. if I hadn’t said there are a lot of other damning things in the report.
I don't think that is racism per se, that just proves what everyone already knows, that Tibet and Xinjiang are occupied territories/colonies and not really part of China.
Hey China...hire them, just make them a yellow star, or a red one.
isn't it cute that FoxConn doesn't make that as a policy but subcontractors do?
isn't it cute that FoxConn doesn't make that as a policy but subcontractors do?
While I as European fully agree with your point of view, I think that projecting our world perspective on other countries is just bs.
Fight with racism is purely white peoples concept. Racism is a term usually doesn't even exist outside of Europe/North America. So we shouldn't try to put our mentality on top of China, as we are not the sole source of truth in this world.
Fight with racism is purely white peoples concept. Racism is a term usually doesn't even exist outside of Europe/North America. So we shouldn't try to put our mentality on top of China, as we are not the sole source of truth in this world.
I'll bite, if racism is so accepted in other places doesn't that just make them all wrong? Or are you contending that racism has value?
I personally think that racism is very wrong and needs to be left in the past. It has no value in current world.
But me, an European, saying to Chinese how they must live and behave - this is just neo colonialism. They should figure this out on their own.
But me, an European, saying to Chinese how they must live and behave - this is just neo colonialism. They should figure this out on their own.
I mean, they can figure this out on their own but in the meanwhile we don’t have to trade with them and give them money to essentially violate our ethics at arms length distance.
What makes our trade with them different than our trade with Saudi/Israel/etc?
Nothing. Personally, I am against trade with Saudi Arabia.
As for Israel, I am sympathetic to a small, democratic nation populated by the descendants of a western genocide, which is surrounded by hostile autocratic or theocratic neighbors. However that’s my opinion. If Israel’s existence is somehow against your ethics, I won’t force you to trade with them. I would just criticize you more directly.
As for Israel, I am sympathetic to a small, democratic nation populated by the descendants of a western genocide, which is surrounded by hostile autocratic or theocratic neighbors. However that’s my opinion. If Israel’s existence is somehow against your ethics, I won’t force you to trade with them. I would just criticize you more directly.
Imposing our views is colonialism. Encouraging justice through soft power is laudable.
> I personally think that racism is very wrong
The production of intelligence in this thread :)
The production of intelligence in this thread :)
We don't have to fund it, though.
This is insane. Oppression and killing of one group by another is a problem I don’t care what your culture is.
This is normal in a lot of places. Even much of first-world Asia allows for racial discrimination.
There is a lot of pretty horrible stuff that is “normal in a lot of places.” It doesn’t excuse it. Racism is not something Apple stands for and so it has leverage to stop this practice in its suppliers.
Nope.
> racism demands a firm response from Apple.
Board: Will that make us more profitable?
Tim: We will become less profitable, but in the long term, people will see that we-
Board: No.
Board: Will that make us more profitable?
Tim: We will become less profitable, but in the long term, people will see that we-
Board: No.
Tim Cook is the architect of the Apple supply chain, and that's why he is the CEO instead of a product person. He is not innocent and has to have read the Foxconn job requirements of age between 16 and 40, ninth-grade diploma, no Tibetan and Uygur ethnicities. He knows what he is doing, and blaming just the board is a cop-out.
Why would it? Tim supports Saudi Arabia and their oppressive apps in the app store.
Without knowing what the median salary per hour is in that part of China, this is just rage-bait.
> Foxconn is known for its high staff turnover, largely because of the low monthly salary of 2,100 yuan per month (US$313) in Zhengzhou. By comparison, the average salary in the city of Zhengzhou in 2018 was 6,929 yuan (US$1,035) per month.
Then either they won't fill the positions or the average salary is too high. (And I asked for median, not average)
Perhaps whatever the median is, it's still too low.
Sure, but then the story becomes "it's sad that poor countries exist" instead of "Apple has an exploitative supply chain".
Not to mention that the numbers are meaningless without a sense of price levels. My cousin is a lawyer in Delhi and lives a life that would be recognizable to your I as very upper-middle class, and yet his equivalent USD salary is roughly one tenth of mine.
Not to mention that the numbers are meaningless without a sense of price levels. My cousin is a lawyer in Delhi and lives a life that would be recognizable to your I as very upper-middle class, and yet his equivalent USD salary is roughly one tenth of mine.
That's what I don't get about Apple. You're selling a premium product that in some cases costs over $1K. How much labor does it take to put one together, amortized per millions of them? An hour? Would paying $35 to a US worker for that hour be out of line? I mean, this is the company that chooses to virtue signal on a ton of different first-world issues. How about not having your main, highest margin product made by 16 year old children in a sweat shop, earning starvation wages?
> made by 16 year old children in a sweat shop, earning starvation wages?
Are they in fact starvation wages? I'm the last person to defend Apple, and I'm all for emotional appeals about ethical issues, but they're useless without an understanding of the facts, and none of the complainants on this thread seem interested in understanding whether what they're saying is accurate, presumably on the off chance that they'd lose the opportunity to pay themselves on the back for their outrage.
Are they in fact starvation wages? I'm the last person to defend Apple, and I'm all for emotional appeals about ethical issues, but they're useless without an understanding of the facts, and none of the complainants on this thread seem interested in understanding whether what they're saying is accurate, presumably on the off chance that they'd lose the opportunity to pay themselves on the back for their outrage.
Elsewhere in the comments someone dug up the stats: they earn one third the mean wage in that region. That's how what I'd expect given that they're making something that costs over three times their monthly salary and has a 30%+ margin.
I see the mean wage statistics, but interpreting means is very sensitive to the distribution and the income distribution in developing countries can be _very_ unintuitive. Something like a median (or lower percentile) is a much better indicator of a claim like "starvation wages".
I go by the stats I have. If you have the median, sure, bring it out. But are you going to seriously argue that $10/day is adequate pay when a single iPhone has more _margin_ baked in it than a worker makes in a month? I mean, seriously, how the fuck is this defensible at all?
This is what I mean when I say that people are forgoing critical thinking in favor of smelling the farts of their moral outrage,whether it's tied to reality or not.
Saying that Foxconn workers are being paid "starvation wages" is an infinitely different question from whether they're getting paid "adequately" (a squishy term that contains several orders of magnitude within it) relative to Apple's margins. It's very difficult for me to believe that people who are as uninterested in understanding the facts of the situation as your comment implies actually care about the situation or these people at all.
Understanding the factual landscape of the situation is separate from having an emotional response to it, but it is a prerequisite. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and economically illiterate (or willfully ignorant) emotional appeals like the one you're making have done immense damage to humanity.
I'm not even just talking about the standard examples of Communist dictatorships: there are a million less dramatic examples, like the straightforward Indian child labor law that did almost nothing but damage to the people it was supposed to protect: metrics across the board worsened for the families in question, including years of education, calories consumed, and most damningly, _hours of child labor_ (which increased).
By the way, I'm not insensitive to the notion that the balance between capital and labor's share of income could use some improvement. My point is about the damage that disinterest in understanding the distinction causes.
Saying that Foxconn workers are being paid "starvation wages" is an infinitely different question from whether they're getting paid "adequately" (a squishy term that contains several orders of magnitude within it) relative to Apple's margins. It's very difficult for me to believe that people who are as uninterested in understanding the facts of the situation as your comment implies actually care about the situation or these people at all.
Understanding the factual landscape of the situation is separate from having an emotional response to it, but it is a prerequisite. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and economically illiterate (or willfully ignorant) emotional appeals like the one you're making have done immense damage to humanity.
I'm not even just talking about the standard examples of Communist dictatorships: there are a million less dramatic examples, like the straightforward Indian child labor law that did almost nothing but damage to the people it was supposed to protect: metrics across the board worsened for the families in question, including years of education, calories consumed, and most damningly, _hours of child labor_ (which increased).
By the way, I'm not insensitive to the notion that the balance between capital and labor's share of income could use some improvement. My point is about the damage that disinterest in understanding the distinction causes.
Apple's rumored to profit several hundred dollars per iPhone sold, between the $1.70/hr not-employees, massive tax evasion, and dishonesty with hardware issues there's not much left to respect them for. Privacy, with the caveat that you're not the product except for Google paying $9 billion to make you their product.
Do you know the market rate for this kind of labor in the area? Is Foxconn competitive with other manufacturers? Feel free to cite any numbers if you've got em.
From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. A lot of people move just to work for Foxconn.
So clearly there's a dynamic going on here that'll take more nuance to understand than can be painted with a broad brush stroke from a Western perspective.
From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits. A lot of people move just to work for Foxconn.
So clearly there's a dynamic going on here that'll take more nuance to understand than can be painted with a broad brush stroke from a Western perspective.
If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively.
That doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the "market rate" will always depress wages as much as possible, because that's what markets are supposed to do - and also to excuse.
But there are human externalities, and it takes a rather strange view of the value of human life to ignore them.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-l...
That doesn't seem to be the case. Of course the "market rate" will always depress wages as much as possible, because that's what markets are supposed to do - and also to excuse.
But there are human externalities, and it takes a rather strange view of the value of human life to ignore them.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/18/foxconn-l...
My argument isn't to excuse Foxconn. It's to point out that we're having this discussion at the wrong zoom level.
There are complex geopolitical, social, and economic factors involved. In the system that exists, Foxconn is actually one of the better if not best actors.
But of course HN wants to boil it down to Apple cutting a check to Foxconn employees because iPhone.
Yes let's severely gimp a domestic company that generates over 5% of America's GDP (and 1% of the world's) in favor of paying Chinese manufacturers much more - when China incessantly steals American IP without care and prevents foreign companies from competing in their domestic markets. Great idea.
There are complex geopolitical, social, and economic factors involved. In the system that exists, Foxconn is actually one of the better if not best actors.
But of course HN wants to boil it down to Apple cutting a check to Foxconn employees because iPhone.
Yes let's severely gimp a domestic company that generates over 5% of America's GDP (and 1% of the world's) in favor of paying Chinese manufacturers much more - when China incessantly steals American IP without care and prevents foreign companies from competing in their domestic markets. Great idea.
I don't really see how this is about Foxconn. Foxconn only hires those people for Apple and Apple only have Foxconn do it because they'd have to pay more to do it themselves. How much they're paid is dictated by Apple.
I think there's some parallel with Uber's contractor-vs-employee situation but it's much more apparent when you consider these people are exclusively working on Apple devices, within Apple's supply chain, subject to Apple's rules and rulings, even some of the components and the software come from Apple employees.
Their $1.70 an hour should be compared to the US federal minimum wage or something because that's the number Apple decided to skip out on, even as they hoarded a quarter trillion dollars.
I think there's some parallel with Uber's contractor-vs-employee situation but it's much more apparent when you consider these people are exclusively working on Apple devices, within Apple's supply chain, subject to Apple's rules and rulings, even some of the components and the software come from Apple employees.
Their $1.70 an hour should be compared to the US federal minimum wage or something because that's the number Apple decided to skip out on, even as they hoarded a quarter trillion dollars.
"If not to buy Apple, what’s the substitute – Samsung? Don’t you know that Samsung’s products are from its OEM factory in Tianjin? Samsung workers’ income and benefits are even worse than those at Foxconn. If not to buy iPad – (do you think) I will buy Android Pad? Have you ever been to the OEM factories for Lenovo and ASUS? Quanta, Compaq … factories of other companies are all worse than those for Apple. Not to buy iPod – (do you think) I will buy Aigo, Meizu? Do you know that Aigo’s Shenzhen factory will not pay their workers until the 19th of the second month? If you were to quit, fine, I’m sorry, your salary will be withdrawn. Foxconn never dares to do such things. First, their profit margin is higher than peers as they manufacture for Apple. Second, at least those foreign devils will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth"
- Anonymous Chinese Worker
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-...
Again, I don't point this out because I think the conditions are OK. I simply point this out to provide context and relativity to the situation. Do you really think Apple is responsible for fixing China's problems? I don't think so. But they DO take responsibility and have made strides in improving conditions for workers that work on their products. And that, I can appreciate.
- Anonymous Chinese Worker
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/many-...
Again, I don't point this out because I think the conditions are OK. I simply point this out to provide context and relativity to the situation. Do you really think Apple is responsible for fixing China's problems? I don't think so. But they DO take responsibility and have made strides in improving conditions for workers that work on their products. And that, I can appreciate.
> If the broad brush stroke had a social democratic Western labour perspective, the labour would be unionised and pay and benefits would be negotiated collectively.
I'm amused that you're saying this about Communist China. :D
I'm amused that you're saying this about Communist China. :D
Well, "Communism with Chinese characteristics" is quite a strange beast.
> From what I've heard, Foxconn is a highly desirable place to work with top of market pay and benefits.
The article states differently:
>> Foxconn is known for its high staff turnover, largely because of the low monthly salary of 2,100 yuan per month (US$313) in Zhengzhou. By comparison, the average salary in the city of Zhengzhou in 2018 was 6,929 yuan (US$1,035) per month.
The article states differently:
>> Foxconn is known for its high staff turnover, largely because of the low monthly salary of 2,100 yuan per month (US$313) in Zhengzhou. By comparison, the average salary in the city of Zhengzhou in 2018 was 6,929 yuan (US$1,035) per month.
Average salaries can be very deceptive especially in developing nations. The real question is what someone with minimal skills or education can make in the area.
What about the racism? Is there nuance in that as well?
Yeah, seems surprising that most of the comments are about the wages and not the racism.
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These workers are basically human robots, but they are not only faster and more accurate then robots, they are much cheaper!
> they are not only faster and more accurate then robots, they are much cheaper!
That's why they still hire humans. If the above statement wasn't true, they would be replaced with a robotic system.
That's why they still hire humans. If the above statement wasn't true, they would be replaced with a robotic system.
We should tariff those iPhones to take out of Apple's pocket all the money they save by not paying their people decent wages.
谢谢富士康和苹果，他们提供了很多工作机会，解决了基本的生存问题。