Great White Sharks Are Terrified of Orcas(smithsonianmag.com)
smithsonianmag.com
Great White Sharks Are Terrified of Orcas
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/great-white-sharks-are-completely-terrified-orcas-180972009/
195 comments
I was taught to hold birds like that, TIL it has a name and it's a thing.
IANAO, but it works on herons and pelicans.
IANAO, but it works on herons and pelicans.
IANAO = I am not an ornithologist?
Please let it be I am not an orca!
Personally, I think it would cooler if avip is an orca posting on HN.
I hope not. He/she might be trying to lure you in with an interesting comment but next thing you know you're upside down, immobile, and suffocating.
this seems most likely given the subject matter of the article and my exceeedingly accurate knowledge of human nature. tips fedora
And lizards...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6yuEuvXOnA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6yuEuvXOnA
I wonder if they got this right: "But some shark species that enter tonic immobility are apex predators. So, don’t have many natural predators."
All apex predator younglings are easy game until they are adults.
All apex predator younglings are easy game until they are adults.
Unless their mom is around protecting them. Like bears and, I assume, Orcas do.
When I was growing up I was ripped out of my Disney fantasy of nature by a video of wildebeest stomping out lion cubs they found left alone. They knew exactly what they were doing and what kind of threat they represented.
Even when I was grown up I was again ripped out of yet another fantasy of nature, I guess it is my nature documentary fantasy -- about how they choke their prey to death. Apparently instead, usually they do not choke it to dearh if they even choke at all and just start eating; and they usually start by ripping holes open at the genitals, anus and belly while the prey is still alive.
Nature is an honest-to-god 24/7 horror movie and we only get to pretend it’s not because we’re on top and happen to be intelligent and social. And it fucking still is for some of us. And the social games and shared social fiction that saves us from it is still pretty sick, much of the time.
Also existence itself is best described, in a broad and literary sense, as Lovecraftian. Don’t think about anything too hard. Especially your own perception of reality, or place in reality. Or... reality. Just don’t think, maybe. That’s safest.
Also existence itself is best described, in a broad and literary sense, as Lovecraftian. Don’t think about anything too hard. Especially your own perception of reality, or place in reality. Or... reality. Just don’t think, maybe. That’s safest.
Oh yeah? Do some research on interspecies altruism, for example. Whatever box you want to put nature in, nature will step right out of. Regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable that vision seemed. And this might be the most uncomfortable realization of all. Or the most exhilarating; it's entirely up to you.
I'd get on that immediately but I'm a bit busy climbing to the top of a tree so this fungus that's taken over my nervous system can proceed to the next stage of its lifecycle by getting a bird to eat me.
In other world you are happy with your one-sided but at least coherent world-view. Peering through the telescope might endanger that, it's true ;)
It sure looks like prey animals (so, most of them) live every day of their lives in a slasher movie. If not something worse. But maybe a constant, very real possibility of being attacked then eaten alive is actually not horrible? IDK. Best case all the "lower" animals have no consciousness whatsoever so at least they don't observe their own experience of the horror they live—but then that's creepy in its own, more cosmic-horror, right (think Watts' Blindsight).
But yes I am absolutely capable of ignoring that and going "wow aren't those flowers pretty" and do it all the time.
But yes I am absolutely capable of ignoring that and going "wow aren't those flowers pretty" and do it all the time.
Good you can still do that. Next level would be to do it without ignoring all that dark stuff.
Yes, there is plenty of horror to go around, but we humans sometims like to fixate on it, amplify and imagine it somehow absolute, fetishize it. Animals don't live in constant horror, it's pretty obvious (and surely their cortisol levels are not constantly through the roof), they just don't fixate on all that stuff. One day, they'll probably experience agony and death, but so what, it's all part of life. That doesn't make them less conscious really, but in this case just more sane than a lot of us humans.
Yes, there is plenty of horror to go around, but we humans sometims like to fixate on it, amplify and imagine it somehow absolute, fetishize it. Animals don't live in constant horror, it's pretty obvious (and surely their cortisol levels are not constantly through the roof), they just don't fixate on all that stuff. One day, they'll probably experience agony and death, but so what, it's all part of life. That doesn't make them less conscious really, but in this case just more sane than a lot of us humans.
Being eaten alive, genital first is literally my worst nightmare. The only thing worse would be living it on repeat or being left alive severely mutilated. Nature is scary.
Thanks I actually forgot about predators attacking the anus first as a weak spot. Was almost out of my head then this comment came along smh
Orcas definitely do. Orcas will fuck up great whites that are near their calves, let alone of they are actively threatening them.
The study that this article is based on can be found here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39356-2
Abstract:
> Predatory behavior and top-down effects in marine ecosystems are well-described, however, intraguild interactions among co-occurring marine top predators remain less understood, but can have far reaching ecological implications. Killer whales and white sharks are prominent upper trophic level predators with highly-overlapping niches, yet their ecological interactions and subsequent effects have remained obscure. Using long-term electronic tagging and survey data we reveal rare and cryptic interactions between these predators at a shared foraging site, Southeast Farallon Island (SEFI). In multiple instances, brief visits from killer whales displaced white sharks from SEFI, disrupting shark feeding behavior for extended periods at this aggregation site. As a result, annual predations of pinnipeds by white sharks at SEFI were negatively correlated with close encounters with killer whales. Tagged white sharks relocated to other aggregation sites, creating detectable increases in white shark density at Ano Nuevo Island. This work highlights the importance of risk effects and intraguild relationships among top ocean predators and the value of long-term data sets revealing these consequential, albeit infrequent, ecological interactions.
Abstract:
> Predatory behavior and top-down effects in marine ecosystems are well-described, however, intraguild interactions among co-occurring marine top predators remain less understood, but can have far reaching ecological implications. Killer whales and white sharks are prominent upper trophic level predators with highly-overlapping niches, yet their ecological interactions and subsequent effects have remained obscure. Using long-term electronic tagging and survey data we reveal rare and cryptic interactions between these predators at a shared foraging site, Southeast Farallon Island (SEFI). In multiple instances, brief visits from killer whales displaced white sharks from SEFI, disrupting shark feeding behavior for extended periods at this aggregation site. As a result, annual predations of pinnipeds by white sharks at SEFI were negatively correlated with close encounters with killer whales. Tagged white sharks relocated to other aggregation sites, creating detectable increases in white shark density at Ano Nuevo Island. This work highlights the importance of risk effects and intraguild relationships among top ocean predators and the value of long-term data sets revealing these consequential, albeit infrequent, ecological interactions.
I only skimmed it, but it doesn't seem that they looked directly at whether the sharks actually fear Orcas per se. It is already known that white sharks flee whenever one of their own is killed by anything, which they can smell from some distance away. They remember to avoid that area for some time afterwards.
"Great White Sharks are terrified of Orcas" suggests a higher level of intelligence than "Great White Sharks evolved to fear anything that can kill a Great White Shark".
It seems that the study is less concerned with that mechanism and more with the fact that this kind of displacement leads to White Sharks occupying sub-optimal hunting grounds while Orcas get to go wherever they want.
"Great White Sharks are terrified of Orcas" suggests a higher level of intelligence than "Great White Sharks evolved to fear anything that can kill a Great White Shark".
It seems that the study is less concerned with that mechanism and more with the fact that this kind of displacement leads to White Sharks occupying sub-optimal hunting grounds while Orcas get to go wherever they want.
The article says that even if orcas pass through an area where the sharks are hunting, the sharks will leave the area and not return for months. It does not mention any sharks being killed.
Is that that different from human fears? We’ve presumably also evolved to be instinctually afraid of categories of things capable of harming or killing us, like snakes and spiders. Our intelligence lets us more carefully sub-categorize these into things that actually can kill us (Black Widows and Cobras) from things that can’t (Orb Weavers and Rat Snakes). Even then though, running across a big shiny Orb Weaver or Rat Snake in the wild shakes loose something deep in your brain telling you to stay away.
> It is already known that white sharks flee whenever one of their own is killed by anything
But white sharks fight each other, kill each other and even eat each other on occasion. We know that white sharks fetuses cannibalize each other in the womb. How could they do that if white shark blood scares them off? Also, is there really a difference in smell between white sharks and other sharks, seals, etc?
This is such an easy thing to test. Has anyone taken white shark blood and tested it on white sharks ( captive or wild )? Also, does this only work on white sharks? Do tiger sharks, nurse sharks and other sharks fear blood of their own species?
Finally, white sharks are scavengers as well as hunters ( like most predators ). As far as I know, every scavenger will cannibalize when given the chance. Are white sharks the exception?
Also, most animals flee when they see, smell or hear a predator. So I think it's most likely that white sharks flee when they sense a potential predator.
If truly shark blood scares off sharks, then coast guards should dump some shark blood near beaches where sharks frequent.
But white sharks fight each other, kill each other and even eat each other on occasion. We know that white sharks fetuses cannibalize each other in the womb. How could they do that if white shark blood scares them off? Also, is there really a difference in smell between white sharks and other sharks, seals, etc?
This is such an easy thing to test. Has anyone taken white shark blood and tested it on white sharks ( captive or wild )? Also, does this only work on white sharks? Do tiger sharks, nurse sharks and other sharks fear blood of their own species?
Finally, white sharks are scavengers as well as hunters ( like most predators ). As far as I know, every scavenger will cannibalize when given the chance. Are white sharks the exception?
Also, most animals flee when they see, smell or hear a predator. So I think it's most likely that white sharks flee when they sense a potential predator.
If truly shark blood scares off sharks, then coast guards should dump some shark blood near beaches where sharks frequent.
Hollywood/Spielberg promoted the fantasy that sharks are predatory to humans, where we are more often mistaken for seals and other natural shark prey when out in the water. An acquaintance recently told me he was surfing at Salmon Creek a couple of weeks ago and a great white hit him on the back of his head with a powerful flick of his tail while he was laying prone on his longboard, a wave came along almost immediately after this and took him shore wards (still prone). This was almost certainly a 'seal slap' stun move, sharks don't do anything by accident. My friend then saw another surfer on his way in paddling out who saw the shark silhouette in the wave and headed back to the beach. It's scary but there are very few actual shark bites and kills of humans despite the terror film sell, but it is still a mystery how we can discourage them from the coastal beach waves where they have every right to be.
Despite dolphin's adorable perception by humans you can see them torturing and raping seals in the San Francisco bay, it's a jungle out there...
Oceanic white tips and Tiger Sharks are man eaters, they have been know to stalk, hunt and consume humans. They will return to devour a human. The meme that Sharks do not eat humans is not entirely true, but the reality is they prefer other meals. Well at least the tiger shark does. Oceanic white tips are the piranhas of the open ocean, they eat everything they come across. It is a good thing they only live in open ocean as if they where a shallow water shark there would be far more shark attacks.
I spearfish, and have spent a lot of time in the water with sharks. There nature is very much like that of dogs. If you show fear, try to flee and basically make yourself look like prey they will get attracted. If you stand your ground, give them a nudge to the face when they get to close. They see you as a competing apex predator that can hurt them, sharks are adverse to fighting for their meal. It is why injured fish is such and attraction to them. I have been in the water with them, just cruising around not paying any attention to anything, someone shoots a fish and all hell breaks loose if you don;t get the fish up fast enough. Once you are in possession of the fish they act as if another shark got it and go back to just cruising around. If they get to your fish before you get it up, they will clean it off the spear in seconds flat.
I spearfish, and have spent a lot of time in the water with sharks. There nature is very much like that of dogs. If you show fear, try to flee and basically make yourself look like prey they will get attracted. If you stand your ground, give them a nudge to the face when they get to close. They see you as a competing apex predator that can hurt them, sharks are adverse to fighting for their meal. It is why injured fish is such and attraction to them. I have been in the water with them, just cruising around not paying any attention to anything, someone shoots a fish and all hell breaks loose if you don;t get the fish up fast enough. Once you are in possession of the fish they act as if another shark got it and go back to just cruising around. If they get to your fish before you get it up, they will clean it off the spear in seconds flat.
This would be an awesome youtube video.
Be interested to hear you perception of dolphin behaviors, especially around porpoises
In my few encounters, Sharks tend to avoid any dolphin species including porpoises and Bottle-nose. In the presence of humans it has been my experience that dolphins tend to be more aggressive towards sharks, running them off. I don't read too much into it, because I imagine they probably do the same when we are not around.
I would imagine that sharks compete for the same food source so they run them off to ensure food availability. Dolphins will also not try to steal your catch, at least not in my experience.
My expereince with dolphins is limited though, I have only been in a pod while spearfishing twice and both times where due to the fact that there was a bait ball, so there where a lot of predators competing for prey fish. Including Sailfish and Marlin, which the dolphins seem to use as the billfish bat thru the ball stun the fish and then the pod will grab some of the stunned fish.
My personal experience is that dolphins know what spearguns are, and don't like them, they generally don't approach if you are spearfishing. The release of a spearshaft and the band pop is a very distinct vibration, many apex fish including large grouper and sharks are keyed into it, in some areas. I remember one time, I pulled the trigger and had two blacktips on me within a split second. The fish was dead on impact so the only vibration was the gun going off. Anyways I would guess that dolphins key into this as well and avoid it.
That being said, when I am in the water without a gun they always approach check me out, push their babies towards me to check me out. I think it's akin to us going to sea world, it really is like hey kids look it's a human check it out, get a good look you don't get to see these too often.
One time my dog jumped in and the babies would swim about a foot under it, to make it go crazy barking. I think they loved the sound as when she would stop they would circle back and get her going again. (Side note: I think dolphins are into ASMR if you are ever in the water with them make sounds they love it). It was the one time I thought to myself, I hope dolphins don't eat dogs because she is a beagle, so small enough. Anyways, they don't, and I am glad they don't hunt humans, if they did we would not be able to enter the water. A human hunting dolphin would be a fearsome predator and absolutely terrifying in a serial killer kind of way. They are really smart and you get a feel for how smart they are when you have natural encounters with them.
I would imagine that sharks compete for the same food source so they run them off to ensure food availability. Dolphins will also not try to steal your catch, at least not in my experience.
My expereince with dolphins is limited though, I have only been in a pod while spearfishing twice and both times where due to the fact that there was a bait ball, so there where a lot of predators competing for prey fish. Including Sailfish and Marlin, which the dolphins seem to use as the billfish bat thru the ball stun the fish and then the pod will grab some of the stunned fish.
My personal experience is that dolphins know what spearguns are, and don't like them, they generally don't approach if you are spearfishing. The release of a spearshaft and the band pop is a very distinct vibration, many apex fish including large grouper and sharks are keyed into it, in some areas. I remember one time, I pulled the trigger and had two blacktips on me within a split second. The fish was dead on impact so the only vibration was the gun going off. Anyways I would guess that dolphins key into this as well and avoid it.
That being said, when I am in the water without a gun they always approach check me out, push their babies towards me to check me out. I think it's akin to us going to sea world, it really is like hey kids look it's a human check it out, get a good look you don't get to see these too often.
One time my dog jumped in and the babies would swim about a foot under it, to make it go crazy barking. I think they loved the sound as when she would stop they would circle back and get her going again. (Side note: I think dolphins are into ASMR if you are ever in the water with them make sounds they love it). It was the one time I thought to myself, I hope dolphins don't eat dogs because she is a beagle, so small enough. Anyways, they don't, and I am glad they don't hunt humans, if they did we would not be able to enter the water. A human hunting dolphin would be a fearsome predator and absolutely terrifying in a serial killer kind of way. They are really smart and you get a feel for how smart they are when you have natural encounters with them.
amazing, thank you!
Dolphins are raping seals off the coast of San Francisco?
If you look up dolphin behavior you might be shocked...
I didn't find any mention of this in scientific literature.
Porpoises are not seals?
I’m not sure it takes much intelligence to feel fear. Many fears can be highly instinctive and even irrational.
The most common projection from the mouse retina is actually a highly-specialized and evolutionarily-conserved hawk detector. It responds to dark, looming stimuli against bright or grey backgrounds.
This is one of my favorite discoveries: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/08/121154710...
This is one of my favorite discoveries: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2012/08/08/121154710...
Thanks for that link, that was an interesting read.
I am all for pairing naturalistic observations with more controlled experiments. However, actively harassing adult great white sharks would be one hell of a thesis project.
[deleted]
Orcas have the advantage of a mammalian brain. It's pretty crazy to think that an animal similar to a pig returned to the ocean and now dominates the environment
An adult Orca alone already significantly outclasses a Great White. A large adult Great White might weigh up to 1,110 kg (2,450 lb) while a large adult Orca can weigh up to 5,380 kg (11,860 lb). Orcas can reach speeds of over 48 km's per hour, while a Great White Shark manage up to 24 km per hour. The Orca's spine and tail also allow it to pull manoeuvres (sudden dive, climb) that a shark can't respond to. And that's before you even consider the Orca's brain...
And it seems Orca's may have figured out a sharks big weakness... tonic immobility - https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility
And it seems Orca's may have figured out a sharks big weakness... tonic immobility - https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility
The brain facilitates social grouping and pack hunting. The latter is just about the most effective predatory strategy in nature.
Orca’s also develop “specialization” with different pods developing specific hunting techniques based on the primary type of prey in their locale.
Everything I've read says while they have the instincts of a hunter they learn a lot from their social group and progenitors.
I would not be surprised if they have their own hackernews and are now talking about how great humans brain is.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the participants on this HN actually are Orcas, they seem to capable of anything and everything ...
Wolf packs can take down a polar bear so its not entirely one-to-one with size/skill.
killer moves... wait
Also, they weigh ~6 tons vs a great white at around 2.3 tons. And 4 inch teeth vs 2 inch teeth. And hunt in packs versus loners. Lastly, much faster...30mph vs 15mph.
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/01/63/62/17251480/15/rawImage....
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/01/63/62/17251480/15/rawImage....
the speed difference is frightening. Almost seems unfair. No wonder sharks steer clear. If they're spotted, they're doomed.
Uff. It is not even a contest: Orcas have the second biggest brains (after Sperm Whales) with a weight of 6-7 kg. White Sharks have a brain of 35 grams. 200 times less!
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-very-primitive-brain-like-in...
I thought air (23%) also has more oxygen than water (1%), so Orcas have a big advantage in endurance here, but googling it water is much more dense than air and has more oxygen counted as mass. My guess is, that oxygen is more accessible with breathing air in lungs than with having gills?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-very-primitive-brain-like-in...
I thought air (23%) also has more oxygen than water (1%), so Orcas have a big advantage in endurance here, but googling it water is much more dense than air and has more oxygen counted as mass. My guess is, that oxygen is more accessible with breathing air in lungs than with having gills?
You guess correctly.
Oxygen "wants to" dissolve in oxygen-depleted water, especially ionic/salty water, specifically blood.
It's much less eager to permeate from one liquid into another liquid of comparable salinity.
Sharks have an additional disadvantage over bony fishes, in that they must be moving for their gills to work at all.
Oxygen "wants to" dissolve in oxygen-depleted water, especially ionic/salty water, specifically blood.
It's much less eager to permeate from one liquid into another liquid of comparable salinity.
Sharks have an additional disadvantage over bony fishes, in that they must be moving for their gills to work at all.
> Sharks have an additional disadvantage over bony fishes, in that they must be moving for their gills to work at all.
The name for this is -"obligate ram ventilators" which is a fantastic phrase.
The name for this is -"obligate ram ventilators" which is a fantastic phrase.
Are you implying that brain weight has a direct relationship with intelligence? So if someones brain is heavier that means they are more intelligent right?
That effect almost certainly exists, but whether it amounts to anything much at the small relative differences you'd see between members of the same species is much less apparent. And of course, you're sort of implying that this it is absurd to suggest that brain weight explains intelligence; but note that just because there's a correlation between brain mass and intelligence doesn't mean it's the only factor or even major factor. Not that it's trivial to even measure intelligence or that it's even a well-defined concept, but hey.
So before you jump to conclusions: there is obviously research on the matter; e.g. you might start here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-brain-size-m...
But while the effects in humans may be small, the difference between 35g and 7kg is... huge, so even if the effect might be imperceptible and in any case likely irrelevant between healthy humans, that's another story at that kind of ratio. Not to mention that I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and conjecture that metabolic differences may even increase that difference (i.e. the orca's brain may be running hotter, too).
So before you jump to conclusions: there is obviously research on the matter; e.g. you might start here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-brain-size-m...
But while the effects in humans may be small, the difference between 35g and 7kg is... huge, so even if the effect might be imperceptible and in any case likely irrelevant between healthy humans, that's another story at that kind of ratio. Not to mention that I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and conjecture that metabolic differences may even increase that difference (i.e. the orca's brain may be running hotter, too).
seppin(2)
No. Large differences in brain weight (e.g. factors of 10 or more) can sometimes matter. But weight is just a poor proxy for more important factors: Number of neurons, number of neuronal interconnections, and specialization of brain areas. Within a species, brain weight differences are unimportant. Even between species it's often unimportant. Blue whale brains are 4x as heavy as human brains but the whales have fewer neurons, and most of those neurons are dedicated to audio processing.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/are-whales-sm...
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/are-whales-sm...
I'd imagine most of ours are similarly dedicated to visual processing, but that's just a shot in the... dark
it's absolutely true between species, along with how developed particular areas are. Within a species with roughly the same relative size and brain area development it is not the case. The poster didn't imply anything else. Scientists tend to condition it with brain to weight ratio as a close correlation to intelligence. It's easy enough to find on the internet if you're interested.
The ancestral precursor to modern orcas is a pig? Really? Fascinating. What creature does the fossil record point to as the orca ancestor?
(Legitimately curious. Rereading before posting makes me realize that I sound like an anti-evolution troll XD )
(Legitimately curious. Rereading before posting makes me realize that I sound like an anti-evolution troll XD )
Not directly a pig, but a land-living mammal where a different evolutionary branch developed into pigs (and cows, and a bunch more)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even-toed_ungulate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even-toed_ungulate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans
I'd guess the ancestor was some thing resembling a hippo, like these sea surfing hippos from West Africa: https://youtu.be/ZvyBmXn7Euc
Also see this informative graphic: https://www.juneauwhalewatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/...
Also see this informative graphic: https://www.juneauwhalewatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/...
The hippo is a another close relative of the first water-loving mammals.
The docile hippo - one of the most dangerous animals in the world
Don't they kill more people annually than any other mammal?
I'd bet good money that humans have them beat.
Not a pig. Here is a fascinating article about how it seems to have happened: http://www.eartharchives.org/articles/the-evolution-of-whale...
Not suprised. Discounting humans, wild pigs dominate in large parts of Texas. Pigs are smart and ruthless, like or as.
If you don't know the story already, you may be interested in this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_S...
In my opinion the 'pakicetus' looked more rat/possum like than pig.
> Reconstructions of pakicetids that followed the discovery of composite skeletons often depicted them with fur; however, given their relatively close relationships with hippos, they may have had sparse body hair.
Maybe a pig-like-opossum?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Pakicetus
Maybe a pig-like-opossum?
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Pakicetus
Orcas working in teams to knock seals off an iceberg with waves: https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY
So what can we conclude? Super smart, organized and no love for other mammals. I am amazed they only seem to go after humans in the sea world type scenario (film: Blackfish, shows the madness it induces in such animals). I don’t know of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd. They would be so scary to swim near.
So what can we conclude? Super smart, organized and no love for other mammals. I am amazed they only seem to go after humans in the sea world type scenario (film: Blackfish, shows the madness it induces in such animals). I don’t know of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd. They would be so scary to swim near.
> no love for other mammals
Orcas are certainly the bullies of the ocean, but they seem to exhibit complex behavior when it comes to their relationship with other mammals. For example, after capturing, "playing" with, and eating baby seals, an orca carries one seal back to shore and sets it free. It's odd behavior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWsN63PRCW8
There are also cases of orcas saving humans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZkkHesyjg
> In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, orcas near Eden, Australia, would drive humpback whales into an area known as Twofold Bay in exchange for their favorite pieces of meat—the tongue and the lips. This working relationship where the killer whales worked as whale killers for more than a hundred years was referred to by local fishermen as “the law of the tongue.”
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/blog/killer-whale-avoids-eat...
Orcas are certainly the bullies of the ocean, but they seem to exhibit complex behavior when it comes to their relationship with other mammals. For example, after capturing, "playing" with, and eating baby seals, an orca carries one seal back to shore and sets it free. It's odd behavior.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWsN63PRCW8
There are also cases of orcas saving humans.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZkkHesyjg
> In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, orcas near Eden, Australia, would drive humpback whales into an area known as Twofold Bay in exchange for their favorite pieces of meat—the tongue and the lips. This working relationship where the killer whales worked as whale killers for more than a hundred years was referred to by local fishermen as “the law of the tongue.”
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/blog/killer-whale-avoids-eat...
"Bullying" is a simple phenomenon explained by physical size and capacity in relation to everyone else. If you have the size, you bully. Very few exceptions.
Pretty much all aquatic species larger than the orca are relatively peaceful and do not harass other species (eg, baleen whales, sperm whales, whale sharks, basking sharks). It's not merely a size thing. Orcas, in fact, tend to harass these larger species.
Humpback whales will even go so far as to protect other mammals from orcas.
> For six and a half hours, the humpbacks slashed at the killer whales with their flippers and tails. And despite thick swarms of krill spotted nearby—a favorite food for humpbacks—the giants did not abandon their vigil.
> It’s not clear why the humpbacks would risk injury and waste so much energy protecting an entirely different species. What is clear is that this was not an isolated incident. In the last 62 years, there have been 115 interactions recorded between humpback whales and killer whales, according to a study published in July in the journal Marine Mammal Science.
"Why Humpback Whales Protect Other Animals From Killer Whales"
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/08/humpback-wha...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12343?c...
Humpback whales will even go so far as to protect other mammals from orcas.
> For six and a half hours, the humpbacks slashed at the killer whales with their flippers and tails. And despite thick swarms of krill spotted nearby—a favorite food for humpbacks—the giants did not abandon their vigil.
> It’s not clear why the humpbacks would risk injury and waste so much energy protecting an entirely different species. What is clear is that this was not an isolated incident. In the last 62 years, there have been 115 interactions recorded between humpback whales and killer whales, according to a study published in July in the journal Marine Mammal Science.
"Why Humpback Whales Protect Other Animals From Killer Whales"
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/08/humpback-wha...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12343?c...
Between species? (Some) kids may have occasionally blown up toads, if movies from the 80s are to be believed. But hurting any mammal or bird without a good reason earns you a trip to the psychologist (and police station if old enough). With animals, there obviously is a lot aggression. But I don't think "bullying" is necessarily the right term. It seems more like either predator/pray behaviour or fights to establish social hierarchy.
The latter obviously comes close to one definition of bullying. But bullying as you explain it, i. e. "because I can", seems rare. Which is also what evolution would suggest, since getting into useless fights is bound be net-negative: even if chances of winning are overwhelming, there is always some risk. Plus it's a waste of energy.
As a test I would suggest looking at solitary, herbivore animals with few natural competitors. Here's a capybara: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b1822fb258d0d6a4ce01db...
The latter obviously comes close to one definition of bullying. But bullying as you explain it, i. e. "because I can", seems rare. Which is also what evolution would suggest, since getting into useless fights is bound be net-negative: even if chances of winning are overwhelming, there is always some risk. Plus it's a waste of energy.
As a test I would suggest looking at solitary, herbivore animals with few natural competitors. Here's a capybara: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b1822fb258d0d6a4ce01db...
Meta: I can't bear watching this video, I find it infuriating. It's a mix of many shots, with no temporal continuity. I don't think there is a continuous shot of more than 3 seconds. The music is annoying (wouldn't natural noise be much more impressive) and over the top. The attack scene is not even clear because of all this. And most of the time is spent watching someone boasting that her "scientific" film is marvelous.
I don't have TV at home, and I rarely watch youtube and modern videos, so I suppose I'm just not used to way TV is nowadays. Even the BBC. I hope it doesn't help inducing ADHD.
I don't have TV at home, and I rarely watch youtube and modern videos, so I suppose I'm just not used to way TV is nowadays. Even the BBC. I hope it doesn't help inducing ADHD.
The reason why it's cut like that it's because it's a Behind The Scenes from the shooting of BBC's Earth. Normally you'd watch it after watching a specific episode (or even later) and you're not interested in particular content of the shot, but about the making of the shot. Hence the interview, rapid cuts and so on. If you see the full BBC Earth, the scene is a lot better and makes more sense.
Thanks for providing the actual explanation. There are (currently) four other comments with useless everything-used-to-be-better-cynicism, which make me pine for the web of yore, when more than 1 in 4 comments brought expertise and not faux-nostalgia.
That's the trend of these type of shows. While these types of shows can/could be considered educational content, they try to over dramatize them to make them "entertaining". They try to build up some drama/tension even if it is obviously forced. Then intercut with the limited video footage you have even reusing the same footage. There's a fine line to keep educational content from boring your viewers to tears and making it feel like sitting in a secondary school class, but the producers have not gotten it right yet.
That seems to be the trend these days. Videos are cut for emotional effect mainly. A lot of videos about race cars are like that. Quick cut here, quick cut there, cool sound, it sort of implies that something cool is happening but you never really see it. Same with the latest Marvel superhero movies. I watched Avengers and I couldn't even tell what's going on in the fight scenes.
I have to completely agree. Horrible video. I found a much better one that is very neat to watch the orcas do a coordinated attack. Check this one out: https://youtube.com/watch?v=AwbNRNCxhFg
They never got the seal. As smart as they are, I'm surprised they didn't have someone waiting on the other side for it to fall off.
I don't think there is a continuous shot of more than 3 seconds
Stay away from modern Hollywood movies! This sort of frenetic cutting is endemic these days. I miss Stanley Kubrick!
Stay away from modern Hollywood movies! This sort of frenetic cutting is endemic these days. I miss Stanley Kubrick!
Just watch the opening scene of The Graduate to balance out the frenetic cuts.
I'm pretty sure there isn't a single case of a wild orca going after a human without provocation.
There are lots of recorded cases of them helping humans though
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_S...
There are lots of recorded cases of them helping humans though
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_S...
If you lived on a planet where there were lots of dumb animals you could eat, and also one not-very-meaty alien species that was 10x more intelligent than you and had machines and weapons, would you try to eat the superintelligent ones? I think they are just too smart to eat humans.
We can't taste pretty good either. We're all muscle and bones. Not enough fat, especially on the kind of people who might be in their feeding zones (say, surfers).
i waste too much time on YouTube. But there is another video of a snorkel diver lady who swears a whale (forget which species) protected her from a shark. It would be nice to think there is some mammal bro behaviour (flipper <-> Hand fist bump!) but evolution has altered our morphology so much I doubt they see us as distant relatives. It took humans ages to see the evolutionary connection from us to everything else. I know a lot of animal hunt mainly on smell. Maybe we smell related. Or taste bad. Or maybe they just find us sufficiently amusing not to merc us.
I haven’t been lucky enough to encounter them but there are entire bays in Hawaii where only whale sharks will regularly go. Tiger and bull sharks will stay well away most of the time because of the dolphins and dolphins love people.
I like to think that they think we’re all just loveable fools à la Douglas Adams.
I like to think that they think we’re all just loveable fools à la Douglas Adams.
Aren't seals mammals? And in captivity, killer whales have a killed a few humans, dunno the total count. So I guess they just don't find humans that appetizing in the wild, or just haven't had the chance to try them out. I'm not sure how common it's for humans to swim in the same waters as killer whales. And isn't it quite rare for sharks to attack humans too?
I wonder if it's a matter of looking at humans and going, "Wow, that weird little critter has such a hard time moving around." and some protective instinct for injured or sick pod members kicking in.
Or maybe we're just ugly-cute to them.
Or maybe we're just ugly-cute to them.
I would assume it overlaps with whatever instinct or learned behavior inspires them to kill sharks - if you're not going to kill a shark directly, why not deprive it of a meal?
All sorts of dangerous-to-humans animals are mammals too. I think you're seeing a connection where there isn't one.
In fact many of the animals that could or have actively preyed on humans are mammals: large felines, and to a lesser extent, canines. Reptiles probably take second place though thanks to crocs.
From the article it appears orcas are aggressive towards sharks in the area since they are competitors. Likely more territorial than “let me protect this weird water monkey.”
> mammal bro behaviour
You might be onto something here. Dolphins look cute, and orca's don't look like the killers they really are. Sharks on the other hand look scary. So it works the other way around.
But they do eat seals, which are probably closer related to them than us?
You might be onto something here. Dolphins look cute, and orca's don't look like the killers they really are. Sharks on the other hand look scary. So it works the other way around.
But they do eat seals, which are probably closer related to them than us?
Humans really tend to anthropomorphize animals but it's about 99% more likely that the orca didn't want the great white in its hunting grounds or near its pod's younglings.
There have been a couple of reported attacks by early Antarctic explorers. It’s not clear if the orcas were provoked/mistook the men and dogs for their usual prey.
https://swfsc.noaa.gov/publications/CR/2011/2011Pitman4.pdf
https://swfsc.noaa.gov/publications/CR/2011/2011Pitman4.pdf
> Orcas working in teams to knock seals off an iceberg with waves: https://youtu.be/g1VEwsI4SlY
At the end of that clip, she gets so excited about seeing something that "no one had seen before", yet at the beginning, she talks about them hoping to see this because of reports of it happening. Huh? Contradict yourself much? I hate these overly dramatic reality type documentaries. Otherwise, some great footage, and could have been so much better without the overly produced interview.
At the end of that clip, she gets so excited about seeing something that "no one had seen before", yet at the beginning, she talks about them hoping to see this because of reports of it happening. Huh? Contradict yourself much? I hate these overly dramatic reality type documentaries. Otherwise, some great footage, and could have been so much better without the overly produced interview.
I don't think it had ever been filmed so clearly before, if it all.
Besides, I wouldn't waste your time nitpicking what someone blurts out in a moment of excitement.
Besides, I wouldn't waste your time nitpicking what someone blurts out in a moment of excitement.
I can imagine it’s pretty much the same reason people tend to hate Greenpeace, which is sad.
A report of it is different than a 4k high-fps recording of it.
To make the report, someone had to have seen it.
Pedantic readings are not very interesting. "No one" can also mean "not a significant amount of people." Recording and distributing it is the antidote.
Entirely informal, but I went through reports of 100 years of killer whale/human interactions in the news in British Columbia/Canada (home of 3 different varieties of killer whales) - and there's three cases of humans attacked, and all cases were provoked.
It’s possible they recognize that (a) we are small and not worth the trouble and (b) they recognize other higher brain mammal life. But they hunt dolphins so....
Maybe it’s just that we don’t live in their environment.
Maybe it’s just that we don’t live in their environment.
Wow interesting. There seems to be more and more evidence that orcas, dolphins, and octopuses are very intelligent.
I wonder if one of them would achieve human-like intelligence if they evolved for a billion more years. I would bet on it.
And then they would probably multiply without control, and kill off all their competitors.
On land, humans have done that. Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin. We live on nearly every part of the earth.
It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere.
I wonder if one of them would achieve human-like intelligence if they evolved for a billion more years. I would bet on it.
And then they would probably multiply without control, and kill off all their competitors.
On land, humans have done that. Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin. We live on nearly every part of the earth.
It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere.
> Although elephants are very intelligent, we're the smarter than them and outnumber them and all other animals by a large margin.
We are out-numbered by many orders of magnitude by a number of different animals:
Which life form dominates Earth? http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-domin...
This strange, glowing fish is more abundant than rats, chickens, and humans combined https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-mos...
Along With Humans, Who Else Is In The 7 Billion Club? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751...
We are out-numbered by many orders of magnitude by a number of different animals:
Which life form dominates Earth? http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150211-whats-the-most-domin...
This strange, glowing fish is more abundant than rats, chickens, and humans combined https://www.businessinsider.com/bristlemouth-fish-is-the-mos...
Along With Humans, Who Else Is In The 7 Billion Club? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751...
Yes I definitely see that point of view. Being smart is a special case of being adaptable, but many other organisms thrive by being well adapted in their niche.
On the other hand, Sapiens has a good quote about there being 2 (at least ?) orders of magnitude more domesticated dogs than wolves in the world. Ditto for pigs and wild hogs, or cattle and comparable wild herbivores.
It has many other pretty shocking statistics about large cats, elephants, etc. The world today is simply much more suited to a dog's way of being than a wolves'.
To put it more starkly, wolves will likely be extinct long before dogs are, because of their different relationship to humans.
But of course ants and other species don't compete for the same resources as humans, and are complementary many ways.
On the other hand, Sapiens has a good quote about there being 2 (at least ?) orders of magnitude more domesticated dogs than wolves in the world. Ditto for pigs and wild hogs, or cattle and comparable wild herbivores.
It has many other pretty shocking statistics about large cats, elephants, etc. The world today is simply much more suited to a dog's way of being than a wolves'.
To put it more starkly, wolves will likely be extinct long before dogs are, because of their different relationship to humans.
But of course ants and other species don't compete for the same resources as humans, and are complementary many ways.
aurochs are extinct
I think anyone reading that would assume he meant large animals.
We are smarter, whatever that means. But not by that much. Our main differantor is technology. If you went back in time and looked at a feckless human tribe hunting it would not be that different than orcas, wolves or any other social mammal predator.
With hands to build tools that build machines and books to communicate. Basically dialing advantages of hunting in packs up in orders of magnitude over time.
Similarly, "the computer is a bicycle for the mind."
Similarly, "the computer is a bicycle for the mind."
It probably wouldn't take a billion years. The last common ancestor of humans and orcas seems to have been about 95 million years ago.
For reference, a billion years ago, there were no animals or plants yet.
Given that, maybe there are a lot of species that really weren't too far off from human level intellligence, but we just got there first?
For reference, a billion years ago, there were no animals or plants yet.
Given that, maybe there are a lot of species that really weren't too far off from human level intellligence, but we just got there first?
> It would be interesting/weird if the sea filled up with one large, intelligent animal that lived everywhere.
https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/
https://www.amazon.com/War-Newts-Karel-Capek/dp/0945774109/
Without fire, it's hard to imagine the virtuous cycle getting kick-started in the same way
Fire is important but, borrowing from Jared Diamond, I think agriculture/domestication is the defining technology that enables population density and growth. A steady food supply enables density, which leads to exchange of and competition in ideas. e.g. compare a city with 100,000 citizens vs. a hunter-gatherer society.
Fire is related to agriculture but maybe not essential. It could be some other kind of chemical reaction that occurs outside the body.
It's hard to imagine how descendants of orcas could create agriculture in the ocean, but not impossible. I mean humans have domesticated fish, shrimp, mollusks, etc. for farming. And probably some marine plants.
It does seem like shallow water is probably the best bet, but maybe that's my lack of imagination.
Fire is related to agriculture but maybe not essential. It could be some other kind of chemical reaction that occurs outside the body.
It's hard to imagine how descendants of orcas could create agriculture in the ocean, but not impossible. I mean humans have domesticated fish, shrimp, mollusks, etc. for farming. And probably some marine plants.
It does seem like shallow water is probably the best bet, but maybe that's my lack of imagination.
I agree agriculture is possible in some form. That's why I think the real blocker is combustion. Is there any other kind of chemical reaction that can generate energy that can be harnessed and that works underwater?
Most of shark attacks on surfers are mistakes, so perhaps orcas are just smarter and see better, and can make a distinction between seals and humans on boards? But then again I've heard about orcas sinking sailing boats and trying to attack polar explorers by breaking the ice below them, so it's not like they're completely uninterested in attacking humans. It probably depends how much contact with humans they have. Being predators, it's only logical that they will eat anything they can catch when the hunger strikes...
Super smart, organized and no love for other mammals.
Depends on the population: The 'resident' (in contrast to 'transient') orcas in the Pacific Northwest do not eat mammals, even though it would be to their benefit as salmon is getting sparse...
Depends on the population: The 'resident' (in contrast to 'transient') orcas in the Pacific Northwest do not eat mammals, even though it would be to their benefit as salmon is getting sparse...
It’s a myth that they never attack humans in the wild. As with most shark attacks it seems to be a case of mistaken identity. Since orcas are significantly more intelligent though they usually retreat before any real harm is done.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale_attack
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale_attack
> In the wild, there have been no fatal attacks on humans and only one reported bite
I don't think the one reported bite counts as an attack.
I don't think the one reported bite counts as an attack.
An attack doesn’t mean death or severe injury. There have been plenty of attacks but they pretty much all have resulted in no injuries.
The Blue Planet making of video showed that the Orcas filmed trying to knock the seals off the ice flow seemingly attempted the same "trick" on the humans on the small boat filming them. While it is remarkable that we don't seem to have evidence of orcas attacking humans, this making of video seemed to suggest to me that they were at least thinking about it.
No evidence of wild orca attacking humans. There are plenty of examples in captivity.
But if something the size of a large white, or any orca, wants to actually eat you, there wont be much of a body left to find. You could be swimming in a group and just vanish. I would not get too comfortable around anything with teeth that size.
But if something the size of a large white, or any orca, wants to actually eat you, there wont be much of a body left to find. You could be swimming in a group and just vanish. I would not get too comfortable around anything with teeth that size.
Very scary indeed. https://youtu.be/y8iipFTBanc
Livers too small to be worth it?
> I don’t know of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd.
It's not just humans that they don't attack. Orcas have cultural food preferences and tend to hunt only the prey that they grew up eating.
It's not just humans that they don't attack. Orcas have cultural food preferences and tend to hunt only the prey that they grew up eating.
> I don’t know of any attacks on surfers. Which seems odd.
That could be because surfers tend to be in much shallower water.
That could be because surfers tend to be in much shallower water.
Waves break in water depths approximately 1.3 times their height.
So if most surfers surf in waves up to about 6ft, the water depth below a surfer is only about 8 feet.
If the waves get bigger than that, it quickly thins out the crowds. On ten foot days, typically only a few people will be out.
See: https://magicseaweed.com/help/near-shore-effects/breaking-wa...
So if most surfers surf in waves up to about 6ft, the water depth below a surfer is only about 8 feet.
If the waves get bigger than that, it quickly thins out the crowds. On ten foot days, typically only a few people will be out.
See: https://magicseaweed.com/help/near-shore-effects/breaking-wa...
orcas sometime hunt animals that are on the beach. Orcas don’t see humans as prey. In Norway you can dive with wild once in the fjords and there are no recorded attacks in the last 200 years.
https://youtu.be/DWsN63PRCW8
https://youtu.be/DWsN63PRCW8
It seems likely enough that they have something like stories about us.
Love is human concept, for all we know
Many species seem to love their offspring. It seems unlikely to be human only.
I agree. Animals may or may not have our emotional depth but it seems very illogical to assume they don't have emotions like love, especially animals similar to us like other mammals. They clearly have evolutionary value for providing social structure and nurturing virtually helpless babies and toddlers. Many will risk their lives without hesitation against ridiculous odds to save other pack members.
Tangent but this made me wonder if there are any pack-hunting birds. Apparently so:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-the-o...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28218-zoologger-the-o...
Yes, Harris hawks.
I'm not sure how deep the analogy goes but a falconer told me that they "hunt like wolves".
I'm not sure how deep the analogy goes but a falconer told me that they "hunt like wolves".
Found an interesting article that suggests surfboards and wetsuits with the black and white orca belly pattern might deter sharks. https://www.nature.com/news/south-african-scientists-trial-h...
I bet they attract orcas though!
I find them attractive as well.
but then what doesn't
I recently listened to the audiobook "Beyond Words" by Carl Safina, I believe on the recommendation of an HN comment.
If you're interested in the intelligence, empathy, and minds of animals, I can heartily recommend this book. The last third or so of the book covered Orcas (and some whales and dolphins) and it was pretty amazing. I particularly liked that he covered some of the stories that are not quite scientific in nature, while calling them out as such. The book will definitely leave you with the lingering feeling that minds and awareness are not quite as simple and clear cut as we might believe them to be.
If you're interested in the intelligence, empathy, and minds of animals, I can heartily recommend this book. The last third or so of the book covered Orcas (and some whales and dolphins) and it was pretty amazing. I particularly liked that he covered some of the stories that are not quite scientific in nature, while calling them out as such. The book will definitely leave you with the lingering feeling that minds and awareness are not quite as simple and clear cut as we might believe them to be.
Here's a short story about orcas, keeping orcas in captivity, and what might happen if we could figure out how to communicate...
Peter Watts & Laurie Channer "Bulk Food": http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pd...
Peter Watts & Laurie Channer "Bulk Food": http://www.rifters.com/real/shorts/WattsChanner_Bulk_Food.pd...
Isn't one of the theories of why the Megalodon went extinct was Orcas (or a relative) pack hunted the young into extinction?
Consensus is that they were likely outcompeted by whales for sure, though mostly by relatives of modern sperm whales. I hadn't heard anything about predation by dolphins/orcas.
> Kent, a Canadian Game & Fisheries warden, tells the story of one hapless grizzly attempting to swim a channel. The distance was, perhaps, less than a mile. Mr. Bear was beavering away at the swim. Up the channel, the dorsal fins of a small pod of orcas sliced the water--two bulls, some females, and get. The whales spotted the bear first. The moms and pups held back, while the bulls circled in. The bear weighed his options. First he looked to the farshore and then he looked to the backshore. He rubbernecked back and forth. Realizing both were too far, he tried to paddle straight up like a missile coming out of a nuclear sub. The whales did not circle (after all, they're not sharks) and did not sprint. They simply swam for the grizzly. In seconds, Mr. Bear turned into a red oil slick.
Robert H. Miller, Kayaking the Inside Passage.
Robert H. Miller, Kayaking the Inside Passage.
I wonder if synthetic Orca sounds, played in the water, could be used to keep sharks out of a specific area?
Acoustic shark repellents based on orca sounds are at least somewhat effective but aren't completely reliable.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6502882/
Looks like the length of an orca and great white are exactly the same. I would have thought the orca to be much larger. Couldn't the great white turn the tables here?
Not really. Orcas are much chunkier than great whites. Even the rare great white that reaches the length of an average orca would be 1/3 the weight. I've seen video of an encounter between individual members of the two species, and it wasn't even a fight. The orca just grabbed the great white and flung it like a chew toy. The you add in the fact that orcas usually (but not always BTW) form and hunt in groups, and it's understandable why a great white would run away.
There's no doubt that a great white is an impressive beast, but there are even more fearsome animals out there. Orcas for one. Sperm whales for another. Something bigger than giant squid that gets into fights with sperm whales and leaves horrific marks on their bodies. To the real heavyweight champions of the sea, a great white would be a snack.
There's no doubt that a great white is an impressive beast, but there are even more fearsome animals out there. Orcas for one. Sperm whales for another. Something bigger than giant squid that gets into fights with sperm whales and leaves horrific marks on their bodies. To the real heavyweight champions of the sea, a great white would be a snack.
Are you suggesting the marks on sperm whales are made by an unknown creature? I thought they were understood to be made by Giant Squid
Most of the marks are pretty clearly giant squid, but last I heard scientists were still unsure about others. Probably something very similar. It's not too surprising, really. What we know about giant squid is mostly from a very few dead ones that have washed up. The vast majority (assuming we can even judge prevalence from things like scars on sperm whales) are likely to settle on the bottom. There are a great many creatures both big and small that live and die down there with none ever reaching the surface intact enough to be recognized as a species we haven't seen before. Every single time they send a probe down there, they find new ones. Some day maybe they'll find one of the big ones that could explain those extra sperm-whale scars.
We actually have some recent footage of the giant squid and new ideas for deep sea exploration
https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/19biolum/logs/ju...
https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/19biolum/logs/ju...
Sharks are solitary; orcas hunt in coordinated packs. 1 on 8 is not a good time no matter how big you are.
Pack-hunting tactics. Think about fighting one guy versus fighting even two or three guys of comparable size and capability.
Comparable height, but each three times the weight. Even more eek.
Orca rarely travel or work alone.
They use group tactics.
They use group tactics.
Bruce Lee was 5'8" tall, about the same as the average American man. The average American man couldn't turn the tables on Bruce Lee in a fight.
I agree with the sharks.
I have been SCUBA and free diving many times and seen sharks, and it is a thrill, but no fear.
As I have written on HN before, once when I was 10 miles offshore in a small Columbia 22 sailboat and Orca (killer whale) jumped four times high out of the water landing right next to my boat, violently rocking it. Yes, I felt fear.
I have been SCUBA and free diving many times and seen sharks, and it is a thrill, but no fear.
As I have written on HN before, once when I was 10 miles offshore in a small Columbia 22 sailboat and Orca (killer whale) jumped four times high out of the water landing right next to my boat, violently rocking it. Yes, I felt fear.
> that is, if there isn’t a remnant population of megalodon hidden somewhere in the deep
I hate this kind of statement so much. Megalodon would be hunting in warm shallow water areas close to the coast. And they are defiantly not 'hidden somewhere in the deep'.
If Megalodon existed, whales could not have grown as large as they did.
I hate this kind of statement so much. Megalodon would be hunting in warm shallow water areas close to the coast. And they are defiantly not 'hidden somewhere in the deep'.
If Megalodon existed, whales could not have grown as large as they did.
They were already living in offshore areas:
> "adult megalodon were not abundant in shallow water environments, and mostly inhabited offshore areas.[1]"
They're also thought to have died out 3.6 million years ago. There's no suggestion that a descendant is still alive, but that's plenty of time for such a lineage to evolve to specialize in deepwater environments.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology
> "adult megalodon were not abundant in shallow water environments, and mostly inhabited offshore areas.[1]"
They're also thought to have died out 3.6 million years ago. There's no suggestion that a descendant is still alive, but that's plenty of time for such a lineage to evolve to specialize in deepwater environments.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalodon#Paleobiology
I honestly thought the author was making a Hannibal Lector joke at first, which I thought was a bit morbid, until the next paragraph, where he expanded on the Orca's taste for shark livers. Turns out it's nature that's the morbid one. Wow. No wonder sharks scatter!
Isn't it a standard pattern of when somebody who is bullying others constantly is very bad at dealing with a bigger bully because they don't have much experience with somebody standing up to them successfully?
A good book on great whites and the Farallon Islands is The Devil's Teeth. It covers the islands, the birds, seals and great whites but there's very little in it on orcas if I remember correctly.
This has implications for wetsuit and surfboard design in repelling sharks.
Why isn’t there a movie about killer Orcas?
I looked up Killer whale on wiki.
Killer whales are apex predators, as no animal preys on them.
So what exactly is new in this paper?
Killer whales are apex predators, as no animal preys on them.
So what exactly is new in this paper?
It's worth not concentrating too much on the first paragraph of the article, which merely talks about a common cultural cliché and reading the rest, which answers your question.
Also note that multiple species can be "apex predators" in an ecosystem.
Also note that multiple species can be "apex predators" in an ecosystem.
The rest of the article suggest White Shakes will leave the area once Killer Whales appears.
Isn't that the normal scenario of an apex predators appearance? Which is why I am asking, or is this a false assumption?
Isn't that the normal scenario of an apex predators appearance? Which is why I am asking, or is this a false assumption?
Mammals > fish.
Not surprising.
Not surprising.
> In 1997, an Orca in the Farallon Islands was seen holding a White Shark upside down for 15 minutes. Whether intentional or not, the Orca likely caused the shark to enter tonic immobility. Defenceless, the shark, suffocated. This also happened again in 2000.
> In New Zealand, Orcas also seem to use tonic immobility to hunt stingrays. Before attacking the orcas will turn themselves upside down. Then, holding the stingray in their mouth, they'll quickly right themselves. Flipping their prey upside down.
https://www.sharktrust.org/tonic-immobility