“Breathability” Comparison of Commercial Outerwear Shell Layers (2018) [pdf](shelbyoutdoor.com)
shelbyoutdoor.com
“Breathability” Comparison of Commercial Outerwear Shell Layers (2018) [pdf]
https://www.shelbyoutdoor.com/images/support/breathability.pdf
110 comments
I also referenced this study when I bought ski wear. eVENT indeed seems pretty good, although they used to have an obnoxious “direct venting” marketing scheme in which they didn’t allow vent zippers because the fabric breathes so well. This is, of course, nonsense.
It’s worth noting that, in cold dry weather, you don’t necessarily want maximum breathability. If the humidity inside your jacket drops too much, then your skins loses a lot of moisture, which dries you out and also means you lose a lot of heat to evaporative cooling.
So the Gore-Tex XCR curve might actually be good: it transmits vapor better when humidity is high.
It’s worth noting that, in cold dry weather, you don’t necessarily want maximum breathability. If the humidity inside your jacket drops too much, then your skins loses a lot of moisture, which dries you out and also means you lose a lot of heat to evaporative cooling.
So the Gore-Tex XCR curve might actually be good: it transmits vapor better when humidity is high.
The eVENT design reminds me of the Breathe-o-Smart windows from Douglas Adams' _Mostly Harmless_.
> The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
> The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
In cold, dry weather you shouldn't wear a waterproof jacket.
While technically correct most people will have one or two jackets that they wear in a range of weather conditions. Owning the perfect jacket for every condition and carrying them all with you to change is not very feasible for most people.
But you should usually wear a windproof layer, and a waterproof layer serves as such, even if it's overkill.
If you are out in cold, dry and windy conditions, then you can wear a jacket made from a highly breathable but windproof material. The one I have is made from Gore Windstopper.
I prefer to layer a very thin windshirt under my insulating layer.
From my experience skiing above the polar circle in Sweden, dew point being inside the jacket becomes a real issue. Moisture freezing inside the jacket and lots of ice thawing when the sun comes out has been no fun.
For cold and dry, poor breathability is a fairly serious issue. Moisture will condense out in your clothing which makes things quite uncomfortable. If you wear a membrane like Gore-Tex as an outer shell then the moisture will actually freeze. As a result membranes in such climates are best avoided. Just bring along a light raincoat if it is warm enough that rain is possible.
Source: a life spent in southern Manitoba,Canada.
Source: a life spent in southern Manitoba,Canada.
Judging purely by the computer in the included photo, I would imagine the study dates to around the year 2000. There was a Goretex XCR launch announcement Feb 2000: http://julieturns.com/goretex/news/uk0002_xcr_newgen.html September 19, 2000 is clearly called out in the paper’s references, perhaps as an “access date”?
FWIW Goretex XCR is now called Goretex Pro, and is really good shit. Not least when it comes to durability, I have an old XCR jacket from 2004 that's seen around 500 days of skiing before it started showing poor waterproofness last year.
Combine this with measured water resistance, to help me find 'the most breathable material that will stand up to X minutes of rain', add data for 'crinkliness' and stretchability (even just your own qualitative scale), then add affiliate links to actual products that use these materials and you've got yourself a nice little side project to maybe generate a bit of passive income.
So "just" three more experiments.
How much would the kit for each experiment cost? And how long would each test last?
Could be a big investment for a bit of passive income.
How much would the kit for each experiment cost? And how long would each test last?
Could be a big investment for a bit of passive income.
based on the sheer number of SEO hacking coupon sites and huge sponsorships for coupon extensions, I'm going to wager a guess that you could earn a significant amount of money if you could position yourself as the definitive source on outerwear information.
I once undertook the task of searching for the mythical fabric that offered breathability and water-resistance.
A big issue is that as your exertion increases, you sweat more and need more breathability, compared to when you're sitting around. In addition, breathability is hampered by the fabric's pores being clogged by dirt, body oils, and just the fabric wetting out. As such, most fabrics are treated with some DWR coating. But the DWR coating wears off over time and at-home treatments never seemed to match what came from the factory.
Roughly a decade ago, eVent was supposed to be the wünderfabrik; and it did offer more breathability than Gore-Tex by omitting a PU layer. However the PU layer also prevented body oils from logging up the breathable membrane, so ultimate eVent jackets would stop being breathable if you didn't keep them clean.
Polartec Neoshell was also a runner up, but it never caught on big time; I think due to durability issues.
Right now, Gore-Tex Shakedry is the talk around town, but I haven't worn anything using it and stopped caring. The outdoor industry will always be selling folks a golden fleece.
- - -
Addendum: I am super glad about how breathability is now being addressed beyond rainshells and fleeces. Patagonia's Nano-Air and Arc'tery's Atom hoodies are two examples of light and breathable insulation layers that didn't exist 10 years ago. They're great for moderate exertion activities.
If anyone wants to geek out more, I recommend reading:
Mark Verber's What is Percent of Nakedness? - https://verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-testing.htm...
Andy Kirkpatrick's (formerly psycho vertical) writings; mainly focused on mountaineering. As such he has a lot of good advice for dressing for bad conditions - https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles
Andrew Skurka's Breathability: an explanation of its importance, mechanisms, and limitations - https://andrewskurka.com/breathability-its-importance-mechan...
A big issue is that as your exertion increases, you sweat more and need more breathability, compared to when you're sitting around. In addition, breathability is hampered by the fabric's pores being clogged by dirt, body oils, and just the fabric wetting out. As such, most fabrics are treated with some DWR coating. But the DWR coating wears off over time and at-home treatments never seemed to match what came from the factory.
Roughly a decade ago, eVent was supposed to be the wünderfabrik; and it did offer more breathability than Gore-Tex by omitting a PU layer. However the PU layer also prevented body oils from logging up the breathable membrane, so ultimate eVent jackets would stop being breathable if you didn't keep them clean.
Polartec Neoshell was also a runner up, but it never caught on big time; I think due to durability issues.
Right now, Gore-Tex Shakedry is the talk around town, but I haven't worn anything using it and stopped caring. The outdoor industry will always be selling folks a golden fleece.
- - -
Addendum: I am super glad about how breathability is now being addressed beyond rainshells and fleeces. Patagonia's Nano-Air and Arc'tery's Atom hoodies are two examples of light and breathable insulation layers that didn't exist 10 years ago. They're great for moderate exertion activities.
If anyone wants to geek out more, I recommend reading:
Mark Verber's What is Percent of Nakedness? - https://verber.com/mark/outdoors/stash/patagonia-testing.htm...
Andy Kirkpatrick's (formerly psycho vertical) writings; mainly focused on mountaineering. As such he has a lot of good advice for dressing for bad conditions - https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles
Andrew Skurka's Breathability: an explanation of its importance, mechanisms, and limitations - https://andrewskurka.com/breathability-its-importance-mechan...
The design of the garment also comes into play in a big way. For things like hiking and working in the rain, Pit Zips are vital and allow a greater level of control than any magic fabric can offer.
Occasional Shakedry user here, that stuff is truly amazing. But, just as advertized, only in a very narrow usage profile, e.g. strict no backpacks rule (unless the bag fits inside).
All the magic comes from the single trick of exposing the bare, delicate membrane as the outer layer. Usually there is a protective outer layer on top of the membrane that will inevitable get soaked and then it's game over for breathability, no matter how good the membrane underneath is. A backpack would ruin that unprotected membrane in no time and I don't even expect it to last very long even if just occasionally taken along for uncertain weather.
All the magic comes from the single trick of exposing the bare, delicate membrane as the outer layer. Usually there is a protective outer layer on top of the membrane that will inevitable get soaked and then it's game over for breathability, no matter how good the membrane underneath is. A backpack would ruin that unprotected membrane in no time and I don't even expect it to last very long even if just occasionally taken along for uncertain weather.
For something completely different, here is the non-breathable Stephenson's Warmlite Vapor Barrier "No Sweat" Shirt:
https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-shirt/
I bought one when I was into backpacking in the '70s but never really liked it that much. I would be curious if anyone knows anything about these and their "vapor barrier" idea.
I do have fond memories of their 1974 catalog (NSFW PDF):
https://www.outinunder.com/sites/default/files/Warmlite%20Ca...
https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-shirt/
I bought one when I was into backpacking in the '70s but never really liked it that much. I would be curious if anyone knows anything about these and their "vapor barrier" idea.
I do have fond memories of their 1974 catalog (NSFW PDF):
https://www.outinunder.com/sites/default/files/Warmlite%20Ca...
I used vapor barrier socks (neoprene) to good effect when I spent 30 days in the field continuously in the Cascades, mostly above tree line.
The idea of vapor barrier is that it goes directly against your skin, underneath the rest of your clothes (or in my case, socks), and it blocks all moisture from getting from your skin into your clothes. This keeps the rest of your clothes dry and therefore warm. It's pretty specific to winter conditions.
The theory is that once the humidity inside the vapor barrier gets super high, your skin will adjust and stop perspiring.
What this means, though, is that sweat gets trapped against your skin for hours and hours, so taking off the vapor barrier releases a lot of stink. And you do have to take off the vapor barrier when you can, to allow your skin to dry out and recover.
I wore thick wool socks over my neoprenes when hiking/climbing, and then changed into wool camp socks (without neoprene) when we got to camp and set up tents, so that my feet could air out and dry out. It kept my feet warm and happy in some pretty crappy conditions.
The idea of vapor barrier is that it goes directly against your skin, underneath the rest of your clothes (or in my case, socks), and it blocks all moisture from getting from your skin into your clothes. This keeps the rest of your clothes dry and therefore warm. It's pretty specific to winter conditions.
The theory is that once the humidity inside the vapor barrier gets super high, your skin will adjust and stop perspiring.
What this means, though, is that sweat gets trapped against your skin for hours and hours, so taking off the vapor barrier releases a lot of stink. And you do have to take off the vapor barrier when you can, to allow your skin to dry out and recover.
I wore thick wool socks over my neoprenes when hiking/climbing, and then changed into wool camp socks (without neoprene) when we got to camp and set up tents, so that my feet could air out and dry out. It kept my feet warm and happy in some pretty crappy conditions.
Thank you! This may explain why the No Sweat Shirt wasn't for me. I wasn't going out in winter conditions, my typical backpacking trips would be in the spring in the Ventana Wilderness (central California coast) or summer in the Sierra. So when I was hiking the trail, I wasn't trying to keep warm so much as keep cool.
taking off the vapor barrier releases a lot of stink
The smell is caused by bacteria so is there such a thing as an antibacterially treated vapour barrier? Maybe one with silver thread?
The smell is caused by bacteria so is there such a thing as an antibacterially treated vapour barrier? Maybe one with silver thread?
Is this why those Capilenes used to stink so much?
Who makes a NSFW clothing catalogue?
In more recent years, maybe American Apparel? I won't dignify them with a link, but if you search for "american apparel nsfw" you will find an Esquire article about their ads.
Regarding Stephenson's catalog, the '70s were a different time. If you had some friends over and you had a hot tub in the back yard, of course you would invite them to jump in, and of course they would take their clothes off first. It would be the polite thing to do.
That kind of casual nudity was just a normal part of life in many circles back then. It didn't even imply anything sexual.
The closest thing to a sexual reference in the catalog is a cute photo sequence on page 9 where the husband and wife company owners show how the sleeping bags can be zipped separately or together.
It's pretty tame compared to AA's hyper-sexualized advertising. That's a whole different kind of NSFW.
After taking another look through Stephenson's catalog, the other thing that strikes me is how much useful information there is. That guy loved to write! Sometimes he went on and on, but I would sure take that over too little information. The section on sleeping bag baffles is an education on its own.
Regarding Stephenson's catalog, the '70s were a different time. If you had some friends over and you had a hot tub in the back yard, of course you would invite them to jump in, and of course they would take their clothes off first. It would be the polite thing to do.
That kind of casual nudity was just a normal part of life in many circles back then. It didn't even imply anything sexual.
The closest thing to a sexual reference in the catalog is a cute photo sequence on page 9 where the husband and wife company owners show how the sleeping bags can be zipped separately or together.
It's pretty tame compared to AA's hyper-sexualized advertising. That's a whole different kind of NSFW.
After taking another look through Stephenson's catalog, the other thing that strikes me is how much useful information there is. That guy loved to write! Sometimes he went on and on, but I would sure take that over too little information. The section on sleeping bag baffles is an education on its own.
Naturism was pretty SFW before the resurgence of prudism.
The nude photos in Stephenson's catalog would have been NSFW in 1974 too. You wouldn't put one in a frame and keep it on your desk at work!
Not even if your boss was one of the cool people you might invite over for a hot tub party.
Not even if your boss was one of the cool people you might invite over for a hot tub party.
Not much removed from the NSFW (a modern 21st century W, perfectly suitable for a 1975 W) newspapers, album covers, calendars -- Michelin, Pirelli, Playboy, etc -- in every garage, workshop and hardware store and many offices and newsrooms too, mid evening TV and advertising of everything from oil filters to early computers.
The seventies wasn't an era that was especially fussed about casual nudity. It was kinda everywhere, and as Stratoscope mentions, all pretty tame and innocent.
The seventies wasn't an era that was especially fussed about casual nudity. It was kinda everywhere, and as Stratoscope mentions, all pretty tame and innocent.
It would seem that Warmlite did!
The warning is completely justified. By way of example, a photo a few pages in features full frontal nudity with the caption "Nothing Is Better Than A Stephenson No-Sweat Shirt".
The warning is completely justified. By way of example, a photo a few pages in features full frontal nudity with the caption "Nothing Is Better Than A Stephenson No-Sweat Shirt".
Weird that no Scandinavian brands made it on this list, do Americans not buy those? Stuff like the North Face is genuinely considered a pretty poor quality brand here in Denmark. Typically North American brands lose these types of tests by our consumer focused NGOs as well.
My inherited 150 year old Icelandic wool sweater is more water/wind resistant than my Fjällraven Hard shell though. So maybe quality just isn’t really what it was anywhere.
My inherited 150 year old Icelandic wool sweater is more water/wind resistant than my Fjällraven Hard shell though. So maybe quality just isn’t really what it was anywhere.
Brands like Norrøna and Bergans use Gore-Tex, and it seems like everyone is sold on it being "the best". I guess Gore-Tex is an alright fit for the climate in Scandinavia, as it can be rather humid during autumn and spring. And people are staunch protectors of their national brands, so I wouldn't be surprised that nobody outside of Norway has heard of them. They are household names in Norway.
During winter you generally just need a wind tight shell, you'll have multiple (breathable) layers underneath. A good mesh webbing underneath a wool base layer under a wind-stopper is my preferred option, keeps you dry and warm in temperatures down to -25C, easily. When it's cold there's no humidity, so your worst enemy will be heat loss due to wind. The chilling factor of wind is a little scary. People that looks overdressed end up freezing because the wind goes straight through them.
You can never go wrong with wool. At least it doesn't lose all insulating capacity just because it gets wet. When it's raining sideways it usually doesn't matter what you're wearing. The humidity is going to be so high that nothing will be able to transfer humidity from your body. You're going to be wet either way. No fancy fabrics will keep you dry, but wool will at least keep you warm.
Good equipment comes with lots of ventilating pockets and zippers, not just under your arms but on the chest and side pockets as well. Inside and outside of your legs as well. Being able to adjust ventilation quickly means that it can be more wind and water resistant. When skiing I will open either the underarm or chest zippers and close them when taking the lift up again. This is usually enough to keep me from getting wet and cold, in temperatures down to -25C.
During winter you generally just need a wind tight shell, you'll have multiple (breathable) layers underneath. A good mesh webbing underneath a wool base layer under a wind-stopper is my preferred option, keeps you dry and warm in temperatures down to -25C, easily. When it's cold there's no humidity, so your worst enemy will be heat loss due to wind. The chilling factor of wind is a little scary. People that looks overdressed end up freezing because the wind goes straight through them.
You can never go wrong with wool. At least it doesn't lose all insulating capacity just because it gets wet. When it's raining sideways it usually doesn't matter what you're wearing. The humidity is going to be so high that nothing will be able to transfer humidity from your body. You're going to be wet either way. No fancy fabrics will keep you dry, but wool will at least keep you warm.
Good equipment comes with lots of ventilating pockets and zippers, not just under your arms but on the chest and side pockets as well. Inside and outside of your legs as well. Being able to adjust ventilation quickly means that it can be more wind and water resistant. When skiing I will open either the underarm or chest zippers and close them when taking the lift up again. This is usually enough to keep me from getting wet and cold, in temperatures down to -25C.
I don't know about others, but the Nordic brands like Norrøna, Bergans, Stormberg, Haglöfs, Cintamani, Fjällräven, and so on, do not use only Gore-Tex materials. They use other materials too, like G-Loft, Dermizax, Gelanots, etc.
Also, Gore-Tex itself comes in multiple variants (Windstopper, C-knit, Shake-dry, and so on). So just saying that someone "uses Gore-Tex" is not saying that much.
I live in the Nordics, so the Nordic companies are the ones I go to, since it makes sense to get clothing that is designed for and tested in the climate one will be exposed to.
Also, there is (in my experience) a notable lack of the "quality wheel of fortune" one unfortunately experiences with e.g. North American brands; I no longer want to guess if the zipper deteriorates after 8 months, or whether the seams start to rip apart after 6 months, is the "warm jacket" really that warm in a real situation, and so on.
The choice of clothing depends a lot on what you do, even during the winter when it's -25 C: are you moving all the time, do you sit still for long periods, what exactly is the temperature, do you expect snowfall, high winds or none at all, and so on. For example, if you try to do ice fishing dressed up perfectly for cross country skiing, I think you'll start to freeze sooner than later!
Also, Gore-Tex itself comes in multiple variants (Windstopper, C-knit, Shake-dry, and so on). So just saying that someone "uses Gore-Tex" is not saying that much.
I live in the Nordics, so the Nordic companies are the ones I go to, since it makes sense to get clothing that is designed for and tested in the climate one will be exposed to.
Also, there is (in my experience) a notable lack of the "quality wheel of fortune" one unfortunately experiences with e.g. North American brands; I no longer want to guess if the zipper deteriorates after 8 months, or whether the seams start to rip apart after 6 months, is the "warm jacket" really that warm in a real situation, and so on.
The choice of clothing depends a lot on what you do, even during the winter when it's -25 C: are you moving all the time, do you sit still for long periods, what exactly is the temperature, do you expect snowfall, high winds or none at all, and so on. For example, if you try to do ice fishing dressed up perfectly for cross country skiing, I think you'll start to freeze sooner than later!
We have brands that use more advanced fabrics in NA like Trew, Homeschool Snowboarding, Arcteryx, etc.
For general outerwear look at Mission Workshop and Outlier.
For general outerwear look at Mission Workshop and Outlier.
Stuff like the North Face is genuinely considered a pretty poor quality brand here in Denmark
Superdry ruined the outdoor jacket market in the UK. They make stuff that looks technical but just isn’t, for posers who live in cities to ermm pose in. But now the (formerly) genuine brands have realised there is money to be made from people who will never actually need proper outdoor clothing but like the look, so they have cut quality and increased price to match.
Here in Wales we chuckle at the English setting off for a days hiking all wearing Superdry and so on. When the weather turns they will be miserable.
Superdry ruined the outdoor jacket market in the UK. They make stuff that looks technical but just isn’t, for posers who live in cities to ermm pose in. But now the (formerly) genuine brands have realised there is money to be made from people who will never actually need proper outdoor clothing but like the look, so they have cut quality and increased price to match.
Here in Wales we chuckle at the English setting off for a days hiking all wearing Superdry and so on. When the weather turns they will be miserable.
Which brands do you rate? I've had a Karrimor eVENT jacket for 4 years, and despite regular Nikwax tech washes is now letting water through between the shoulders - and I'm not a frequent pack wearer, so it hasn't abraded.
Karrimor went bankrupt and the brand has been owned by Sports Direct for the last few years. Draw your own conclusions!
Arcteryx is still good, but expensive. Brasher, Snugpak, Arktis and Keela are all worth looking at. Alpkit is surprisingly good for the price. Paramo kit is decent.
Arcteryx is still good, but expensive. Brasher, Snugpak, Arktis and Keela are all worth looking at. Alpkit is surprisingly good for the price. Paramo kit is decent.
Rab, Mountain Equipment and Montane are good UK brands. I find ME tend to have a more athletic alpinist fit, whereas rab jackets are more voluminous so you can pull them on over everything else e.g. on a belay. Rab Photon Pro is a well known synthetic insulated jacket for Scottish winter conditions. I agree on Acteryx - good but over-priced and becoming the outdoor poseur's garment of choice. You can also get some real bargains for perfectly adequate clothing in Decathlon.
agree on Acteryx - good but over-priced and becoming the outdoor poseur's garment of choice.
I always wonder why people who aren’t at all spend so much to look outdoorsy, maybe it’s to impress Tinder/Grindr dates. Woe betide them if their date wants to go hiking or climbing or something!
Having said that I am wearing jeans right now, but I’m not pretending to be a cowboy...
Oh almost forgot Berghaus, used to be a big fan of their kit but not so much now. Same quality drop-off issues that have affected some of the others mentioned on this thread.
I always wonder why people who aren’t at all spend so much to look outdoorsy, maybe it’s to impress Tinder/Grindr dates. Woe betide them if their date wants to go hiking or climbing or something!
Having said that I am wearing jeans right now, but I’m not pretending to be a cowboy...
Oh almost forgot Berghaus, used to be a big fan of their kit but not so much now. Same quality drop-off issues that have affected some of the others mentioned on this thread.
Thanks - I bought my jacket from Sports Direct but assumed they were a stockist, not the owner!
My Brasher boots have lasted 15 years and only failed due to younger me being too lazy to look after the leather properly (it's cracked at the crease). Thanks for all the names, will see which I can find stockists for.
My wife wouldn't be seen dead with me wearing Paramo. If they'd only do better cut garments!
My Brasher boots have lasted 15 years and only failed due to younger me being too lazy to look after the leather properly (it's cracked at the crease). Thanks for all the names, will see which I can find stockists for.
My wife wouldn't be seen dead with me wearing Paramo. If they'd only do better cut garments!
My first pair of Brasher boots were superb - possibly the comfiest boots I have ever owned. They lasted about 2 years before the leather cracked and they were unrepairable - but that's with constant (ab)use - my fault not theirs.
I purchased what I thought was a direct replacement pair recently only to discover that what they now sell (following an acquisition) is a poor copy of the boots I had before.
I purchased what I thought was a direct replacement pair recently only to discover that what they now sell (following an acquisition) is a poor copy of the boots I had before.
Look after your kit and your kit will look after you ;-)
Altberg and AKU are my go-to brands for boots at the moment.
Altberg and AKU are my go-to brands for boots at the moment.
I bought a NF jacket thinking it would be something that could last me a good 5+ years. The inner padding around the collar just desintegrated after a few weeks and looks like a white plastic band. The outer shell absorbs moisture and is far from the water repellent/absorver it's advertized. Maybe I'm chasing old unicorns but these "technical" brands are not what they used to be say 20 years ago, despite their higher prices.
NorthFace has become a lifestyle brand, so they don’t have a lot of incentive to make things technically good anymore.
If you want good technical clothes you need to pick brands that average people don’t recognize, because they have an incentive.
If you want good technical clothes you need to pick brands that average people don’t recognize, because they have an incentive.
I think it's fairer to say that TNF has expanded also to include a whole lot of lifestyle clothing.
They continue to offer quite a lot of expedition-ready gear (tents, waterproof shells, etc.) that's definitely not lifestyle stuff - mainly under the "Summit" sub-brand.
e.g. does the shell have a hood that's sized to fit over a climbing helmet? Probably "serious".
They continue to offer quite a lot of expedition-ready gear (tents, waterproof shells, etc.) that's definitely not lifestyle stuff - mainly under the "Summit" sub-brand.
e.g. does the shell have a hood that's sized to fit over a climbing helmet? Probably "serious".
Absolutely, I concluded the same some time ago when I saw it being sold en masse in major retailers in the US. Most of these brands now seem synonymous with some status/lifestyle statement.
The inner padding around the collar just desintegrated after a few weeks and looks like a white plastic band. The outer shell absorbs moisture and is far from the water repellent/absorver it's advertized
It could be fake. North Face is one of the most problematic brands for it. Rumour has it the fakes are made in the same factory on the same production lines, just of low quality materials. Never buy North Face online, from a market stall, or wherever.
It could be fake. North Face is one of the most problematic brands for it. Rumour has it the fakes are made in the same factory on the same production lines, just of low quality materials. Never buy North Face online, from a market stall, or wherever.
It was bought at a well known North Face store. Unless they received a batch of fake ones which seems less plausible.
Quality fade?
> My inherited 150 year old Icelandic wool sweater
Any picture :) ?
Any picture :) ?
I've got an icelandic wool sweater I bought from a woman (who wove it) while biking around the island. Really warm, also gorgeous in a rustic way, but way too heavy and incompressible for climbing/backpacking. The warmth/weight ratio is poor relative to modern synthetic puffies like the Nano-Air.
The biggest difference is that your wool sweater will keep you somewhat warm even if you're completely soaked. It's also has some nice fire resistant properties, but this might not be so useful for most people.
Synthetic insulation warms while wet as well, that's primarily why people choose it over down.
Fleece sucks for climbing/backpacking for the same reasons. Great for hiking/chilling though.
Some of these don't exist anymore. Nextec from Patagonia, huh? I've given up finding a breathable waterproof layer. If it's heavy rain then I accept I'll get sweaty underneath, if it's cold then water resistant soft shells are awesome.
I experimented with different waterproof membranes a lot, and the one that seems to really breathe the best not just on paper is Polartec NeoShell. It also has a correspondingly lower waterproof rating, but still high enough to be fully rainproof. The downside (or the upside, depending on your perspective) is that it's not windproof - you can very much feel the gusts going through it. It's also not as sturdy as Gore-Tex.
I‘ve heard reports [0] that Polartec NeoShell is not very durable. After a few months of light usage, apparently the fabric develops cracks at the shoulders and wrists.
[0] https://www.bergfreunde.de/basislager/polartec-neoshell-das-...
[0] https://www.bergfreunde.de/basislager/polartec-neoshell-das-...
My NeoShell items have 1-3 years of usage on them, without any cracks. This looks like a single comment - more likely to be an issue with that particular manufacturer or product.
Wow, this actually confirms my thoughts about my Columbia Omni-Tech, that thing seems like the least breathable jacket I've ever owned. Good thing it has pit zips. It's like a cold rain jacket.
There seems to be 2 distinct categories: some fabric is asymmetric when it comes to relative humidity, others stay constant (like Omni-Tech). The asymmetrics become more breathable as humidity increases. Schoeller WB-Formula starts off half as breathable as Omni-Tech at low humidity and at high humidity comes down to match. But you've also got Gore-Tex XCR, which is more breathable than O-T at even low humidity, and gets even more so as humidity increases.
I've had a Columbia 3-in-1 with a softshell liner that I've really loved. It can take about ¼" of rain, but isn't quite as warm as a fleece. I washed the liner a bunch, but never washed the shell (still looks new, waterproof AFAIK). I just bought myself a Marmot 3-in-1 for Christmas (unaware of all this research). Shell is apparently Membrain, which is both more and less breathable than Omni-Tech (less when dry, more when humid).
"Asymmetric" breathability fabrics, most->least breathable: Gore-Tex XCR, Entrant Dermizax, Gore-Tex, Membrain, Hydroseal, Sympatex, Conduit, Schoeller WB-Formula. All these are more breathable when humid (opposite probably not very useful).
"Symmetric" breathability fabric, most->least breathable: Expanded PTFE, EVENT, Schoeller Dryskin Extreme, Entrant GII XT Laminate, Nextec, Lowe Alpine Triplepoint, Omni-Tech.
The groups overlap, but symmetric fabrics are generally more breathable overall (especially when dry, but even still when humid). Interesting.
There seems to be 2 distinct categories: some fabric is asymmetric when it comes to relative humidity, others stay constant (like Omni-Tech). The asymmetrics become more breathable as humidity increases. Schoeller WB-Formula starts off half as breathable as Omni-Tech at low humidity and at high humidity comes down to match. But you've also got Gore-Tex XCR, which is more breathable than O-T at even low humidity, and gets even more so as humidity increases.
I've had a Columbia 3-in-1 with a softshell liner that I've really loved. It can take about ¼" of rain, but isn't quite as warm as a fleece. I washed the liner a bunch, but never washed the shell (still looks new, waterproof AFAIK). I just bought myself a Marmot 3-in-1 for Christmas (unaware of all this research). Shell is apparently Membrain, which is both more and less breathable than Omni-Tech (less when dry, more when humid).
"Asymmetric" breathability fabrics, most->least breathable: Gore-Tex XCR, Entrant Dermizax, Gore-Tex, Membrain, Hydroseal, Sympatex, Conduit, Schoeller WB-Formula. All these are more breathable when humid (opposite probably not very useful).
"Symmetric" breathability fabric, most->least breathable: Expanded PTFE, EVENT, Schoeller Dryskin Extreme, Entrant GII XT Laminate, Nextec, Lowe Alpine Triplepoint, Omni-Tech.
The groups overlap, but symmetric fabrics are generally more breathable overall (especially when dry, but even still when humid). Interesting.
Besides reading about them has anybody had first hand experience with "breathable" stuff that actually keeps you dry in real rain? To me this stuff seems like a mythical beast that is supposed to exist but I can never find.
I backpack in the Pacific Northwest and have hiked for hours in pouring rain at temperatures of berween 40 and 80 degrees and have found a standard gortex jacket by Marmot to be totally acceptable for this task.
On warm days I were just a base layer (the wickier the better) under the jacket with all the air vents open. I sweat a lot so I need good airflow. I imagine if you bike in similar conditions you'd need a better solution but aside from a lot of gimmicks I'm not sure what would be better.
On warm days I were just a base layer (the wickier the better) under the jacket with all the air vents open. I sweat a lot so I need good airflow. I imagine if you bike in similar conditions you'd need a better solution but aside from a lot of gimmicks I'm not sure what would be better.
> I backpack in the Pacific Northwest and have hiked for hours in pouring rain at temperatures of berween 40 and 80 degrees and have found a standard gortex jacket by Marmot to be totally acceptable for this task.
Aren't you sweating inside the jacket anyway due to hiking? So you're wet inside whether you’re wearing a jacket or not? So what's the point in a waterproof jacket?
I think it's best to just accept you're going to get wet, wear basic fabrics, and practice wet-dry drills.
Aren't you sweating inside the jacket anyway due to hiking? So you're wet inside whether you’re wearing a jacket or not? So what's the point in a waterproof jacket?
I think it's best to just accept you're going to get wet, wear basic fabrics, and practice wet-dry drills.
No, you get humid, but not wet when everything is working right. Your sweat evaporates and you are not wet.
Depends how fast you’re moving, what kind of climb you’re hiking up and what kind of load, I guess, but I’ve been sweating out in a snow storm in Wales when carrying a heavy pack moving at speed and I would not have wanted a waterproof on.
Sure, you can sweat more than your jacket can transpire. In general though I think you should strive to avoid liquid sweat in winter conditions, not just "accept" it. Improve your layers, or your fitness, or reduce your load or speed. Getting wet in winter can be dangerous.
> reduce your load or speed
Not really an option if you need to be at a given place at a given time with given equipment! That's why the military don't fight in waterproofs. They just accept they're going to get wet and then practice disciplined wet-dry drills.
Not really an option if you need to be at a given place at a given time with given equipment! That's why the military don't fight in waterproofs. They just accept they're going to get wet and then practice disciplined wet-dry drills.
I thought we were talking about backpacking in the pacific northwest (or at least other recreation). Obviously the military is a completely different animal, and they do not care what I think.
For different definitions of all those terms you've used, yes, but basically, no.
Breathable means water vapor can pass. If there's no way for vapor to pass, then it's not breathing. If the surface of the material is saturated with something (water, oil/dirt) it's probably not gonna breathe.
The closest thing I can think of to what you're asking for is a trench coat. It's baggy and has ok airflow, but the outside is mostly water proof, depending on the fabric. My leather trench coat keeps me dry and warm in hours of pouring rain, and the cotton one does a decent job too.
Of course then someone asks about an "active" version, but I'm fairly certain that if your skin is emitting its own water, you just aren't going to be dry. My suggestion then is wool base layers, so even if you're wet, you're warm.
Breathable means water vapor can pass. If there's no way for vapor to pass, then it's not breathing. If the surface of the material is saturated with something (water, oil/dirt) it's probably not gonna breathe.
The closest thing I can think of to what you're asking for is a trench coat. It's baggy and has ok airflow, but the outside is mostly water proof, depending on the fabric. My leather trench coat keeps me dry and warm in hours of pouring rain, and the cotton one does a decent job too.
Of course then someone asks about an "active" version, but I'm fairly certain that if your skin is emitting its own water, you just aren't going to be dry. My suggestion then is wool base layers, so even if you're wet, you're warm.
If you want to stay dry in the rain, you will need more than just good fabric, you will need a good garment--i.e. one that fits properly and does not allow water in through zippers, cuffs, or hood.
The most common way for people to get wet in a rain jacket--aside from sweat--is rain hitting their face and then running down their chin and neck. If your face is getting wet from rain, your chest will get wet too.
Breathable fabric can be waterproof; Gore-Tex is used in waders and dry suits, where it works fine under full immersion. Unlike most rain jackets, those garments have very good mechanical sealing. When they leak, it is almost always at a seam or a pin-hole (like from pushing through river-side thorns).
The most common way for people to get wet in a rain jacket--aside from sweat--is rain hitting their face and then running down their chin and neck. If your face is getting wet from rain, your chest will get wet too.
Breathable fabric can be waterproof; Gore-Tex is used in waders and dry suits, where it works fine under full immersion. Unlike most rain jackets, those garments have very good mechanical sealing. When they leak, it is almost always at a seam or a pin-hole (like from pushing through river-side thorns).
Depends on your expectations.
- Breathable clothing only stays breathable in a downpour if the face fabric stays dry, e.g. the DWR is not overwhelmed
- The clothing is usually a pretty active cut, compared to galoshes and ponchos. This tends to allow water in at the neck, cuffs, and waist over time.
- The breathability is driven by positive vapor pressure, so it will get humid inside the jacket.
- Breathable clothing only stays breathable in a downpour if the face fabric stays dry, e.g. the DWR is not overwhelmed
- The clothing is usually a pretty active cut, compared to galoshes and ponchos. This tends to allow water in at the neck, cuffs, and waist over time.
- The breathability is driven by positive vapor pressure, so it will get humid inside the jacket.
Oh, you also need to be warm enough to evaporate your sweat. If you are too cold in your jacket your sweat will condense.
https://missionworkshop.com/products/the-orion-waterproof-ja... uses Toray Entrant and has served me well cycling in the rain.
What situations are there where owning two separate jackets, one for emitting sweat and another for keeping rain off, couldn't work?
emitting sweat in the rain?
Also, when it rains in the morning when you go to work, but is sunny and not so cold when you head back home (or the other way around).
Obviously, you _could_ carry two jackets in that case, but if you live in London (like me) there's no way to know for sure which you'll need before you leave the house.
Obviously, you _could_ carry two jackets in that case, but if you live in London (like me) there's no way to know for sure which you'll need before you leave the house.
I've found my Arcteryx hard shell to be somewhat breathable. I much prefer to open the pit zips when I need to cool off though.
What's a reasonable expectation for durability of these fabrics?
My most recent hydrophobic jackets were Rab (6 years) and Mountain Hard Gear (2 years). While initially awesome, they've both eventually lost their hydrophobic properties. The fabric treatments (NikWax Tech Wash), fastidiously applied, don't work.
Should I just plan on buying a new jacket after X hours of use?
My most recent hydrophobic jackets were Rab (6 years) and Mountain Hard Gear (2 years). While initially awesome, they've both eventually lost their hydrophobic properties. The fabric treatments (NikWax Tech Wash), fastidiously applied, don't work.
Should I just plan on buying a new jacket after X hours of use?
I'll note that I used to line dry hydrophobic jackets after washing, but that was actually a mistake. The warmth in the dryer somehow anneals the DWR, refreshing it. (This will no work forever, of course)
I highly recommend spending a bunch of money on a well-constructed waterproof shell. My last Gore-Tex jacket lasted 13 years before finally breaking down in one of the pit zips. And pretty much every time I put it on, I was really glad to have it for the comfort it provided in cold, wet, or windy conditions.
You just need to be realistic about what a “breathable” shell can do. If you’re moving enough that you would be sweating without a shell, then of course adding a shell is just going to make the situation much worse. In practice this often means that I’ll be wearing just a thin base layer when I’m actually moving, and often prefer to get rained on than drenched in my own sweat. And then as soon as I stop and my body temperature starts to drop, the shell and extra thermal layers come out.
To me breathability is less important than a number of other factors like hood design, size, weight, durability, looks, how it feels against bare skin, venting options, zippers, etc.
You just need to be realistic about what a “breathable” shell can do. If you’re moving enough that you would be sweating without a shell, then of course adding a shell is just going to make the situation much worse. In practice this often means that I’ll be wearing just a thin base layer when I’m actually moving, and often prefer to get rained on than drenched in my own sweat. And then as soon as I stop and my body temperature starts to drop, the shell and extra thermal layers come out.
To me breathability is less important than a number of other factors like hood design, size, weight, durability, looks, how it feels against bare skin, venting options, zippers, etc.
Right - waterproof layers are for when you are stationary only.
Buffalo Systems kit has always been good for me. Wear it properly (next to your skin) and even though it's not fully waterproof you will not get cold which is the main thing. Bring a dry top to put on when you've finished and done. Dries out really quickly and you can put it on wet without it feeling cold.
I feel like this secret is being kept alive by a dwindling community unfortunately. I have a great Montane Extreme Jacket, similar to the Buffalo one but with a better hood and not a pullover smock. I had a Buffalo about 15 years ago too.
This move to Gore-Tex et al reminds me of what happened after the invention of the trainer.
Trainers (sneakers) are everywhere now, and they get more and more complex each year yet people get injured running in them just as easily.
A small sommunity kept alive the idea of running in minimal shoes, zero drop, flat unpadded soles, and running like we did in the past.
Similarly, Gore-Tex came along and now we're obsessed with shedding the water on the outer layer. The modern mantra is water must not penetrate under any circumstance. There's a time and a place for that but in those conditions a truly impermeable layer like a PU shell is better.
And so there's just a few of us who know that it's not necessarily preventing all water ingress that's the goal - it's maintaining warmth, breathability, comfort and having material that will dry quickly.
Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK but it's no accident Buffalo, Montane, Mountain Equipment and Rab (all UK based companies) make 'Pile and Pertex' colthing and now some exceptional Primaloft based synthetic shells - The Mountain Equipment Citadel and Fitaroy Jackets, and the Montane Prism are two I own and are every bit as good as Pile and Pertex but without the bulk.
It's good to know there are a few of us out there keeping the wisdom alive!
This move to Gore-Tex et al reminds me of what happened after the invention of the trainer.
Trainers (sneakers) are everywhere now, and they get more and more complex each year yet people get injured running in them just as easily.
A small sommunity kept alive the idea of running in minimal shoes, zero drop, flat unpadded soles, and running like we did in the past.
Similarly, Gore-Tex came along and now we're obsessed with shedding the water on the outer layer. The modern mantra is water must not penetrate under any circumstance. There's a time and a place for that but in those conditions a truly impermeable layer like a PU shell is better.
And so there's just a few of us who know that it's not necessarily preventing all water ingress that's the goal - it's maintaining warmth, breathability, comfort and having material that will dry quickly.
Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK but it's no accident Buffalo, Montane, Mountain Equipment and Rab (all UK based companies) make 'Pile and Pertex' colthing and now some exceptional Primaloft based synthetic shells - The Mountain Equipment Citadel and Fitaroy Jackets, and the Montane Prism are two I own and are every bit as good as Pile and Pertex but without the bulk.
It's good to know there are a few of us out there keeping the wisdom alive!
I'm in the UK too and it's been great to have so many local contributions in this thread. I'm an enthusiastic walker (rambler?) and am always looking for suitable clothing - not just for walking holidays, but for everyday, keeping warm, dry and comfortable in variable weather and rain (lots of it this Christmas!). Whether a stroll, hill climb, birdwatching or taking a dog for a walk, getting sweaty or wet is what I'm always aiming to avoid.
> Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK
I do wonder if our climate is a bit "different" when it comes to outdoor clothing. Are we more humid and damp than most of the USA and Europe? They do great gear, but it often seems to assume a different environment (the alps) or different climate (sun for X days, then rain for Y days). Gear for us, given the small range of temperature variations and fast changes in the weather, seems to have different requirements.
Thanks for recommending EDZ in another comment. I like the performance of outdoor clothing but often don't want to look like an outdoor enthusiast (because I merely walk a lot, and also want to blend in in towns).
Can you recommend any trousers that keep you dry(er) in showers, or dry quickly once wet? I got caught in a squall on Exmoor today and soaked through. Stayed warm in no small part thanks to a Trespass AT200 fleece (ridiculously cheap for the performance) but warmer legs would be nice. For torrential rain there's overtrousers, but I'm not a fan outside winter (too hot and sweaty).
> Maybe it's because of our climate in the UK
I do wonder if our climate is a bit "different" when it comes to outdoor clothing. Are we more humid and damp than most of the USA and Europe? They do great gear, but it often seems to assume a different environment (the alps) or different climate (sun for X days, then rain for Y days). Gear for us, given the small range of temperature variations and fast changes in the weather, seems to have different requirements.
Thanks for recommending EDZ in another comment. I like the performance of outdoor clothing but often don't want to look like an outdoor enthusiast (because I merely walk a lot, and also want to blend in in towns).
Can you recommend any trousers that keep you dry(er) in showers, or dry quickly once wet? I got caught in a squall on Exmoor today and soaked through. Stayed warm in no small part thanks to a Trespass AT200 fleece (ridiculously cheap for the performance) but warmer legs would be nice. For torrential rain there's overtrousers, but I'm not a fan outside winter (too hot and sweaty).
I use Rohan Overlanders. They are pretty lightweight but warm enough when moving. 6 pockets that fit an OS map :-)
They dry extremely quickly and you can give them a wash in tech wash to give them a bit dwr. I think they hit a good balance of fast drying and warm enough when moving.
But if it's going to be very wet and you know it then some simple baselayer trousers with a brethable (read: air permeable, not just water vapour) shell trouser, preferably with braces, is the way I go. eVent is great but so is NeoShell I think it's called.
They dry extremely quickly and you can give them a wash in tech wash to give them a bit dwr. I think they hit a good balance of fast drying and warm enough when moving.
But if it's going to be very wet and you know it then some simple baselayer trousers with a brethable (read: air permeable, not just water vapour) shell trouser, preferably with braces, is the way I go. eVent is great but so is NeoShell I think it's called.
Exactly why I love my lightweight extra large packable poncho.
It's completely water proof, but it's got a shit ton of ventilation, I can wear exactly what I need to stay warm and if it starts raining, sleeting, snowing, etc. on with the poncho, I stay dry and warm, all of me stays dry, and not just my upper body.
I've actually done trail running in my poncho, but it's a pain, frankly most people don't need all this "technology" to stay dry and warm. I use a cotton tee, a wool sweater and a cheap insulated jacket with pit zips, and a poncho. It works for anything down to about -20F, of course you still need to protect your legs for warmth, because the poncho protects them from the water.
My poncho is so old it could vote, I don't even know who made it, I do remember it was cheap, but not flimsy, it has some body so that it won't act like it's still packed. I may not meet today's standard for packable, but eh, what's an extra couple of ounces in the scheme of things.
It's completely water proof, but it's got a shit ton of ventilation, I can wear exactly what I need to stay warm and if it starts raining, sleeting, snowing, etc. on with the poncho, I stay dry and warm, all of me stays dry, and not just my upper body.
I've actually done trail running in my poncho, but it's a pain, frankly most people don't need all this "technology" to stay dry and warm. I use a cotton tee, a wool sweater and a cheap insulated jacket with pit zips, and a poncho. It works for anything down to about -20F, of course you still need to protect your legs for warmth, because the poncho protects them from the water.
My poncho is so old it could vote, I don't even know who made it, I do remember it was cheap, but not flimsy, it has some body so that it won't act like it's still packed. I may not meet today's standard for packable, but eh, what's an extra couple of ounces in the scheme of things.
I've just come to accept that I'll get a bit wet one way or another; either sweat or rain ingress through hood or cuffs (this will happen eventually as you'll need to stop for lunch or to put up shelter). Keeping warm is more important than keeping dry.
Yes this is what I think - if you're outdoors and doing something you're going to be getting wet, inside and out. Might as well accept that and work with it (fast drying clothing, wet dry drills) rather than fight it.
As somebody who spends most of their time on the Celtic and Nordic fringes, Im a big fan of non-breathable PU (fishermans) waterproofs.
I think breathability is an overrated quality for waterproof fabrics. Zips and vents combined with waterproofness and robustness is the way to go.
I think breathability is an overrated quality for waterproof fabrics. Zips and vents combined with waterproofness and robustness is the way to go.
As somebody who lives in PNW, my take is the exact opposite: waterproofness is the overrated quality, because the most commonly used fabrics are way more waterproof than necessary to completely block out even extremely heavy rain. On the other hand, breathability means a lot less sweat on the move. The difference between e.g. classic Gore-Tex and NeoShell is night and day.
Generally, it’s safest to assume that any waterproof material is non-breathable. If you exert yourself in them, you sweat and trap that sweat inside the membrane, often guaranteeing to soak yourself even if the rain lets up. Windbreakers with some basic spray on water resistance just work better (which is to say, not great).
Best thing overall is to just wear synthetics that dry very quickly (pair with waterproof bag for your backpack contents - trash compactor bags are amazing for weight efficiency)
Best thing overall is to just wear synthetics that dry very quickly (pair with waterproof bag for your backpack contents - trash compactor bags are amazing for weight efficiency)
I’ve had a perfect experience with my Arc’teryx Alpha FL from 2013.
The marketing said Goretex Active, and it worked like a charm.
I’ve worn it on three hour bike rides, snowboarding all day, 5-10 hour winter and summer hikes. I took it to Iceland and Greenland (and was quite active in the rain) and it just worked.
I live in Seattle and only maybe two days a year did I wish that it had pit vents.
It’s expensive[0], but the technology works!
[0] Given it’s lasted 6 years, and still looks good, I now categorize it as an investment rather than an expense. I love it so much I want to give them more money, so this spring I’ll be buying a new one.
The marketing said Goretex Active, and it worked like a charm.
I’ve worn it on three hour bike rides, snowboarding all day, 5-10 hour winter and summer hikes. I took it to Iceland and Greenland (and was quite active in the rain) and it just worked.
I live in Seattle and only maybe two days a year did I wish that it had pit vents.
It’s expensive[0], but the technology works!
[0] Given it’s lasted 6 years, and still looks good, I now categorize it as an investment rather than an expense. I love it so much I want to give them more money, so this spring I’ll be buying a new one.
I’ve switched almost completely to breathable clothes over last couple of years. Huge fan of Icebreaker merino stuff (underwear and hoodies). Using breathable shorts from Kathmandu.
Big problem for me is that most of the stuff is way overoptimized for hiking and trekking while I just wish something simple and socially acceptable.
Also one thing I haven’t figured out is t-shirts. Sticking to cotton for now but do want something I can keep on for days or even a week.
Big problem for me is that most of the stuff is way overoptimized for hiking and trekking while I just wish something simple and socially acceptable.
Also one thing I haven’t figured out is t-shirts. Sticking to cotton for now but do want something I can keep on for days or even a week.
Yes, "technical" clothing for regular use seems to be a unfilled niche. You either get stuff for trekking, or that awful "techwear" trend that makes you look like a ninja who's really into Nine Inch Nails, with a bit of tacticool prepper mixed in.
Uniqlo has some "techy" fabrics that don't look too out of place, but a slightly better quality and slightly higher age average wouldn't hurt (skinny fits, friggin' 7/8 pants).
I've experimented with Merino shirts and socks for traveling with carry on luggage, but they're just too damn fragile and develop small holes way too soon. Yes, maybe I didn't take care of them the right way, but not having to take care of them too much is pretty much the point...
Uniqlo has some "techy" fabrics that don't look too out of place, but a slightly better quality and slightly higher age average wouldn't hurt (skinny fits, friggin' 7/8 pants).
I've experimented with Merino shirts and socks for traveling with carry on luggage, but they're just too damn fragile and develop small holes way too soon. Yes, maybe I didn't take care of them the right way, but not having to take care of them too much is pretty much the point...
I agree merino doesn’t last long. Worst were Allbirds. Super comfy for light use, but wears out in like 6 months.
“Techy” style is subtle tho. I wouldn’t mind a premium lot2046 line. You’d have to kill me to wear anything star wars. That is just dweeb.
IMHO Some of normal stuff is just too normcore dad clothing.
I guess agreement is wet need more of every tribe.
“Techy” style is subtle tho. I wouldn’t mind a premium lot2046 line. You’d have to kill me to wear anything star wars. That is just dweeb.
IMHO Some of normal stuff is just too normcore dad clothing.
I guess agreement is wet need more of every tribe.
I'm a big fan of the merino t-shirt I bought from Macpac, haven't had any wear issues yet, although I wouldn't wear it while hunting in dense bush - that said, when I'm hunting, I'm usually wearing a high viz polarfleece t-shirt, so it's a bit of a moot point.
Not sure exactly where you are in the world but EDZ make excellent merino t-shirts that can be worn day to day. I have 3 of the short sleeve crews and about to get some of the polos.
https://www.edzlayering.com/
https://www.edzlayering.com/
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A bit off topic but I’ll go up to Scotland in February and still need a hard shell. My old Mountain Hardwear won’t make the cut anymore. Any recommendations for good deals? I only need it for a week every other year for some Alpine climbing so I don’t want to spend crazy money but also don’t want to get soaked when the weather is bad.
As a frugal person, I'm as concerned with durability as performance. Anecdotally, after trying cheaper membranes that disintegrated or lost their waterproof-ness after frequent use (daily bike commuting, being stuffed in a bag), I have come to prefer Gore-Tex for how long it lasts.
This is cool. I have purchased several pairs of pants that claimed to be "breathable" but in fact were anything but. I'd basically given up on breathable waterproof fabrics but this study seems to indicate that some of them may be OK.
Theoretically, could a jacket made of a hard material (resistant to water for 50 years minimum) perforated with nano-particle size holes be both breathable and highly water-resistant?
The surface needs to be hydrophobic, too. Otherwise, when the outside gets soaked, holes will be blocked. Presumably it also needs to be thin so the holes aren’t too deep.
At this point, you more or less have a textile. A piece of aluminum foil isn’t going to make a great jacket.
At this point, you more or less have a textile. A piece of aluminum foil isn’t going to make a great jacket.
As far as I know, that's what all the breathable fabrics are. GoreTex ís PTFE (teflon™) with microscopic pores, originally developed for uranium refining; PTFE is soft, so it's usually combined with a nylon shell. Tyvek comes in many varieties, one of which is a waterproof+breathable version; it's polyethylene fiber pressed into a porous felt-like sheet.
This is basically what expanded PTFE membranes are. PTFE is hard, durably waterproof stuff; stretching it out creates the tiny holes that permit breathability.
I had an idea for a 3d printed layer that could vent on the shoulders and would be rain proof if you walk upright..
I need breathable waterproof clothing because I cycle as my main form of transportation, including in bad weather. I find eVENT breathability adequate for staying dry while cycling at a relaxed pace (12mph average over fairly flat terrain on a touring bike), but insufficient at my more usual pace of about 15mph (same conditions). If there's only light rain I'll open pockets to get unimpeded air flow, which makes a big difference. If I was buying again I'd get something with specifically designed vents for more airflow. There's probably no fabric that can keep you dry during fast cycling while fully enclosed. If you only ride slowly or use electrical assistance then eVENT is likely good enough.