Parachuting for Charity: A 5-year audit (1999)(ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Parachuting for Charity: A 5-year audit (1999)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10476298
140 comments
I saw what I consider to be the epitome of money-grubbing "charity fun run" about five years ago with the "Ugly Sweater Run". They blatantly advertised that there would be no clock, no results, and it would be "about 5K/3.1 miles". For $85. On a private road that was unlikely to require any permits or even much traffic control (Remlinger Farms, for those familiar with the Seattle/Carnation area). I've run plenty of 5K runs with awards, traffic control, support, timing and placing for $35 (and this old man thinks that's high).
But wait, you might ask, what about the charity? Toys for Tots. Bring your own damned toy, because the organizers sure as hell weren't giving the little shits any toys. None of the money was earmarked for the charity, right into the event organizers' pockets it goes.
That's the most egregious example. Other examples abound to solidify my belief that charity fun runs are a racket. Write a check directly, and go find a run that isn't trying to bullshit you with a coat of "it's for charity".
But wait, you might ask, what about the charity? Toys for Tots. Bring your own damned toy, because the organizers sure as hell weren't giving the little shits any toys. None of the money was earmarked for the charity, right into the event organizers' pockets it goes.
That's the most egregious example. Other examples abound to solidify my belief that charity fun runs are a racket. Write a check directly, and go find a run that isn't trying to bullshit you with a coat of "it's for charity".
I did my first timed 5K over the holidays for free through a local parkrun:
https://www.parkrun.us/
Apparently they're sponsored, but I have no idea who sponsored this one.
https://www.parkrun.us/
Apparently they're sponsored, but I have no idea who sponsored this one.
Fun runs are probably generally cost-inefficient, and if what you're saying about the Toys for Tots is true, thats terrible, but I don't quite understand how the pricing relates to the story.
> with awards, traffic control, support, timing and placing for $35
Surly those must struggle to break even? Wouldn't a higher fee, and, more importantly, nearly-zero costs be exactly what you want for a charity run?
> with awards, traffic control, support, timing and placing for $35
Surly those must struggle to break even? Wouldn't a higher fee, and, more importantly, nearly-zero costs be exactly what you want for a charity run?
> Surly those must struggle to break even? Wouldn't a higher fee, and, more importantly, nearly-zero costs be exactly what you want for a charity run?
The one for 35$ wasn't the charity run, that was the commercial one. The charity one was 85$, thus even if they just paid the commercial one 35$ per runner, they would still comes out with 50$ per runner given, yet if his story is true, they gave 0$ per runner.
The one for 35$ wasn't the charity run, that was the commercial one. The charity one was 85$, thus even if they just paid the commercial one 35$ per runner, they would still comes out with 50$ per runner given, yet if his story is true, they gave 0$ per runner.
To put a lower bound on how much these things can cost. The Kent Fitness League (UK) runs an old school cross country event. It costs two pounds (2015).
I have been to a few fun runs that do not support a charity, cost >$40, and ask for volunteers to help pass out bibs, direct traffic, etc.
I never understood why people would volunteer for an event like that. You aren’t supporting anything except the company that is profiting from the run.
I never understood why people would volunteer for an event like that. You aren’t supporting anything except the company that is profiting from the run.
If anyone profits from the run, it’s the company that pulls out the clock and the timing mat. That will be a fixed fee, whether you have volunteers or not. The timing company does not care about charity, or not, they want their money to pull out the equipment. I know a few of these folks, most are one person/mom and pop operations. None that I know of are driving nice cars and raking it in.
The volunteers are to reduce other costs for what is probably at best a break-even proposition. Race directors generally aren’t rolling in cash, either. That is, unless one doesn’t provide any of those services and charges $85.
The volunteers are to reduce other costs for what is probably at best a break-even proposition. Race directors generally aren’t rolling in cash, either. That is, unless one doesn’t provide any of those services and charges $85.
"everyone would think I was a nice person doing nice things for people in need"
Notwithstanding effective altruists.
That aside, when I spent more time doing running & triathlon there was an unspoken rule that people don't ask the group for charitable funding for these things.
A large number of charity marathon runners will be effectively buying a place in a race they did not good-for-age qualify for. There's nothing wrong with that and cool that a proportion of the ticket price goes to charity, but it would be great if more people could just own it.
The general rule is don't ask other people to pay for your fun adventure activities.
Notwithstanding effective altruists.
That aside, when I spent more time doing running & triathlon there was an unspoken rule that people don't ask the group for charitable funding for these things.
A large number of charity marathon runners will be effectively buying a place in a race they did not good-for-age qualify for. There's nothing wrong with that and cool that a proportion of the ticket price goes to charity, but it would be great if more people could just own it.
The general rule is don't ask other people to pay for your fun adventure activities.
My niece is currently soliciting sponsorship for some kind of charitable visit to a foreign country. As far as I can tell it's simply a holiday. No actual charitable work will be done (it's meant for the children to "experience the world" or something). She, or rather, the donors, have to pay the full cost and at over £3000 it's quite a lot more than a two week package holiday to the same place. I declined to donate.
World Challenge? Yeah.. On sign-up, the children seemed to think the organisation was a charity, which felt a bit more acceptable. The company didn't hide the fact they were for-profit.
To be fair, they are doing more than a simple package holiday offers, but it is still not a cheap expedition.
To be fair, they are doing more than a simple package holiday offers, but it is still not a cheap expedition.
Well, check out the annual reports from your favourite charitable organizations; the most successful ones have a high correlation with those where fund raising costs is the biggest line-item expense. It seems to be this "grow or die" mentality spilling over from the corporate world. United Way is one of the biggest offenders.
I wish more charities would constrain themselves to their original narrow mandate without success inevitably growing their "addressable market"...
I wish more charities would constrain themselves to their original narrow mandate without success inevitably growing their "addressable market"...
I'm an academic researcher that studies nonprofits and trust me, you are not alone in thinking this. But the problem with charities constraining themselves to their original narrow mandate is that this leads to tiny nonprofits trying to solve the greatest challenges facing humanity (poverty, disease, etc.). Tiny nonprofits simply cannot impact the world significantly.
Sure there are examples of egregious shadiness in nonprofits, but an above comment mentioned the Red Cross basically putting 375m/500m of donations toward the programs. Honestly, if they send every dollar received straight the beneficiaries, they would have raised significantly less than 500m. Would it be better for the programs to receive 375m/500m or 25m/25m? Sure we don't know how much they would have raised without all the fundraising, but this issue is more nuanced than people think.
EDIT: I read the Red Cross article from NPR, and it appears that example falls under legitimate questioning of the use of funds. My larger point still applies in general though.
Sure there are examples of egregious shadiness in nonprofits, but an above comment mentioned the Red Cross basically putting 375m/500m of donations toward the programs. Honestly, if they send every dollar received straight the beneficiaries, they would have raised significantly less than 500m. Would it be better for the programs to receive 375m/500m or 25m/25m? Sure we don't know how much they would have raised without all the fundraising, but this issue is more nuanced than people think.
EDIT: I read the Red Cross article from NPR, and it appears that example falls under legitimate questioning of the use of funds. My larger point still applies in general though.
A career ago I spent a good chunk of my time going over the financials of non-profits large and small. It's an entire industry passing grants back and forth, skimming a percentage each time. United Ways are typically run by a board of trustees consisting of the local elite; lawyers, accountants, small business owners. The UW sends money to other local non-profits who spend it on services and rent from those same lawyers, accountants, and small business owners while employing their failsons. Thousands of donations go in, and at the end someone gets a bag of dented cans of cream of mushroom soup.
Not all charities are like this; the against malaria foundation for example seems very cost effective
AMF is a UK charity so I'm not sure I'm reading their financial page correctly: https://www.againstmalaria.com/FinancialInformation.aspx
Looks like they're using half their revenues to build up a bank account. To smooth out their net purchases? For the most part, I like their model. They turn thousands of small donations directly into nets without a bunch of middle men.
Looks like they're using half their revenues to build up a bank account. To smooth out their net purchases? For the most part, I like their model. They turn thousands of small donations directly into nets without a bunch of middle men.
By their "failsons" do you mean their "ericsanddonaldjrs"?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-is-failson-culture-look-n...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-is-failson-culture-look-n...
You can find more effective charities at givewell.org
Big Charities are fundraising companies with a branch of operations which do some actual good.
I feel like this is an obligatory reference: https://www.fastcompany.com/3035734/ikea-is-a-nonprofit-and-...
Glad to know my intuitive revulsion at how fake this type of corporate “charity” seems is borne out by the facts. Something always seems off.
Edit: It seems to me that it’s an amazingly potent form of evil to poison the well of charity so that there’s no air/light/goodwill left for those who would legitimately try to help the unfortunate.
Edit: It seems to me that it’s an amazingly potent form of evil to poison the well of charity so that there’s no air/light/goodwill left for those who would legitimately try to help the unfortunate.
Reputation-laundering. I would not be surprised if such an adjacent industry also exists for foreign aid.
When I worked in Boston I organized a company event for habitat for humanity. First year was great, we worked on a house all day, paid HforH somewhere between 1k and 5k (i cannot remember). A year later we returned to the same site. But... the house we worked on the year before wasnt finished yet...
That kind of blue my mind. I always wondered whether the money donated by companies would have been better used to just hire contractors.
That kind of blue my mind. I always wondered whether the money donated by companies would have been better used to just hire contractors.
It actually does go to hire contractors. The dirty not-so-hidden secret is that HFH sets aside houses for volunteers to work on.
The majority of HFH houses are actually built by contractors without any volunteers messing shit up.
The majority of HFH houses are actually built by contractors without any volunteers messing shit up.
ah, that makes sense, but also feels pretty lame overall. I definitely won't volunteer again or org anything for them.
There was a great HN comment a few years ago that broke down the "Charitable-Industrial Complex" using The Real Housewives as an example.
I found it:
One thing I've learned from many so-called "philanthropists" is that hosting charity events can be a great status and money making/saving opportunity for those in the business of it. If you've ever watched a "real housewive of ..." episode, those wacky ladies are constantly hosting charity events and provide a pretty good example of how this works:
Full comment here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6113969
I found it:
One thing I've learned from many so-called "philanthropists" is that hosting charity events can be a great status and money making/saving opportunity for those in the business of it. If you've ever watched a "real housewive of ..." episode, those wacky ladies are constantly hosting charity events and provide a pretty good example of how this works:
Full comment here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6113969
Plenty more examples abound. Even the American Red Cross — raised $500mm in 2015 for Haiti earthquake relief. Used $125mm for internal expenses[0]
[0] https://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482020436/senators-report-fin...
[0] https://www.npr.org/2016/06/16/482020436/senators-report-fin...
Are there many people playing bridge these days? I'm in my early 30s and was one of only half a dozen members of my school's bridge club (Grammar school, in England), most of our opponents were older folk, we all thoroughly enjoyed match days but I doubt many British schools have bridge clubs, is it popular elsewhere in the world?
Off-topic but I'm curious, what does "Never buy anything in a room with a chandelier" mean? Tried searching everywhere to get some explanation, but the closest hit I get is from Google which is a link to your comment here.
If they can afford to take you to a really nice place for a sales meeting, it means the margins are crazy high and you're getting ripped off.
Basically, yes. But not exactly, or at least, not as I understand it. Someone can be crazy-successful and be able to afford to take customers to a really nice place.
What makes it a “room with a chandelier” is when it is artifice, designed to impress those who mistake flash for function. And here is the kicker: They are trying to close the business while the “mark” is overwhelmed by the spectacle.
It’s a judgment call, in my opinion. If Tim Cook flew me to California and took me to his favourite place to talk about working at Apple, I wouldn't think he was trying to con me with opulence.
But of he just happened to have an employment agreement in his pocket, and would I care to sign it over the cigars and brandy... That would be buying something in a room with a chandelier.
Likewise, if a block-chain startup took its angel money and bought themselves a party at CES with an open bar... I’d look askance at my “VIP Invite.”
But if, during the party, all they said was, “Hey, keep us in mind if you or someone you know is looking...” well, that’s buying exposure, and maybe I’m not impressed, but they aren’t trying to sway me at the moment I’m making a decision, so it wouldn’t be buying something in a room with a chandelier.
100% bias in my characterization, as you can tell.
What makes it a “room with a chandelier” is when it is artifice, designed to impress those who mistake flash for function. And here is the kicker: They are trying to close the business while the “mark” is overwhelmed by the spectacle.
It’s a judgment call, in my opinion. If Tim Cook flew me to California and took me to his favourite place to talk about working at Apple, I wouldn't think he was trying to con me with opulence.
But of he just happened to have an employment agreement in his pocket, and would I care to sign it over the cigars and brandy... That would be buying something in a room with a chandelier.
Likewise, if a block-chain startup took its angel money and bought themselves a party at CES with an open bar... I’d look askance at my “VIP Invite.”
But if, during the party, all they said was, “Hey, keep us in mind if you or someone you know is looking...” well, that’s buying exposure, and maybe I’m not impressed, but they aren’t trying to sway me at the moment I’m making a decision, so it wouldn’t be buying something in a room with a chandelier.
100% bias in my characterization, as you can tell.
That's how I feel about almost every real-estate office I've ever been in. The agent is always driving some flashy car, like a maserati or tesla, and everything in the office is way too nice.
Why the cynical view? People have fun, organizers make money, and a charity makes money. Without the event, nobody has fun, and nobody (including the charity) makes money.
I've participated in many such charity fun runs and see no problem with this type of arrangement. It takes a lot of work and experience to host successful running events: registration, insurance, web site development, course marking, permits, aid stations, timing, t-shirts, clean up, etc. It's worth paying an event management company to ensure everything runs smoothly. Shop around and you might find a smaller local company willing to do it for a lower price.
In the end the charity still gets more money than they had before and the runners get some exercise: win / win. Plus you've raised awareness of the cause and some participants will go on the become regular donors.
In the end the charity still gets more money than they had before and the runners get some exercise: win / win. Plus you've raised awareness of the cause and some participants will go on the become regular donors.
I see big problems with this type of arrangement - you raise ten dollars while spending five thousand on the event itself. Yet you will call this a charity event? Also what awareness? There are people who don't know breast cancer is bad (actually breast cancer isn't even that bad anymore. Most patients get quite a good cure)?
This is on top of the fact that the charity again takes a huge admin cut, and I'm willing to bet that the kind that organizes marathons with pink ribbons are the same that have 95% expense ratios.
If you go to Panda Express the person asks if you want to donate a few dimes for charity. I bet they contribute more to charity than these pretentious events. You don't call it a charity lunch do you?
Do these events if you want but be honest and call it for what they are which is just circular congratulatory social Sunday pasttimes for people with too much money (and ps someone somewhere might get a buck or two, maybe).
This is on top of the fact that the charity again takes a huge admin cut, and I'm willing to bet that the kind that organizes marathons with pink ribbons are the same that have 95% expense ratios.
If you go to Panda Express the person asks if you want to donate a few dimes for charity. I bet they contribute more to charity than these pretentious events. You don't call it a charity lunch do you?
Do these events if you want but be honest and call it for what they are which is just circular congratulatory social Sunday pasttimes for people with too much money (and ps someone somewhere might get a buck or two, maybe).
>> Panda Express the person asks if you want to donate a few dimes for charity
These requests burn me up. The cashier at Super Store asks "would you like to donate $5 to charity?" What charity? It's nutrition focused for school kids; what kind of monster wants little kids to go hungry?
Then you find out it's the Weston (controlling family) charitable organization, they use the money to buy food through their own organization and benefit from the tax credits... no thanks.
My process:
1. Sit down with your family and decide what causes you'd like to support,
2. Do some research to identify organizations that are cost-effective with their money,
3. Make a commitment on an annual or reoccurring basis,
4. Be the dick who says "no" to every other casual request at your front door, stores, etc.
These requests burn me up. The cashier at Super Store asks "would you like to donate $5 to charity?" What charity? It's nutrition focused for school kids; what kind of monster wants little kids to go hungry?
Then you find out it's the Weston (controlling family) charitable organization, they use the money to buy food through their own organization and benefit from the tax credits... no thanks.
My process:
1. Sit down with your family and decide what causes you'd like to support,
2. Do some research to identify organizations that are cost-effective with their money,
3. Make a commitment on an annual or reoccurring basis,
4. Be the dick who says "no" to every other casual request at your front door, stores, etc.
Loblaws at Thanksgiving:
Buy a turkey (at retail, from them, full price, no discount) and then immediately donate that turkey to Second Harvest. They give nothing, but take the markup on the bird. How charitable.
What a scam. I gave the local food bank $35 cash instead which has way more buying power to get food for people in my area in need.
Buy a turkey (at retail, from them, full price, no discount) and then immediately donate that turkey to Second Harvest. They give nothing, but take the markup on the bird. How charitable.
What a scam. I gave the local food bank $35 cash instead which has way more buying power to get food for people in my area in need.
I do the same, you might find givewell.org interesting.
Mine to.
I have a personal set of charities that I donate to regularly.
Then, as a family, we discuss, and we have a couple regular charities, and then a few charities for causes that are important to us that year (e.g. this year it's voting rights), and we research and find the best charities (not necessarily the biggest) and donate a much more significant amount.
We discuss this every year, and bring up the past year's giving.
This is something new for us -- discussing money and charity like this. As kids, we had no idea my parents donated to anything. My own kids are too little at the moment, but soon enough they can join too.
I don't donate anything else (except for my local homeless news carriers), and feel no guilt at all for not accepting the supermarket's scammy charity of anything else.
I have a personal set of charities that I donate to regularly.
Then, as a family, we discuss, and we have a couple regular charities, and then a few charities for causes that are important to us that year (e.g. this year it's voting rights), and we research and find the best charities (not necessarily the biggest) and donate a much more significant amount.
We discuss this every year, and bring up the past year's giving.
This is something new for us -- discussing money and charity like this. As kids, we had no idea my parents donated to anything. My own kids are too little at the moment, but soon enough they can join too.
I don't donate anything else (except for my local homeless news carriers), and feel no guilt at all for not accepting the supermarket's scammy charity of anything else.
> I see big problems with this type of arrangement - you raise ten dollars while spending five thousand on the event itself. Yet you will call this a charity event?
This reminds me of when people complain about charities paying their CEO well.
Would you rather pay a CEO $100k to bring in $1million in charity funds, or pay a CEO $1million to bring in $5million in charity funds?
Same here. Would you rather run a successful event that brings in $5k in charity funds, or an event run by amateurs who end up bringing in $1k in charity funds?
There's an argument to be made about transparency, and organizations that take all this too far (90+% is clearly too much), but end results matter.
This reminds me of when people complain about charities paying their CEO well.
Would you rather pay a CEO $100k to bring in $1million in charity funds, or pay a CEO $1million to bring in $5million in charity funds?
Same here. Would you rather run a successful event that brings in $5k in charity funds, or an event run by amateurs who end up bringing in $1k in charity funds?
There's an argument to be made about transparency, and organizations that take all this too far (90+% is clearly too much), but end results matter.
>Would you rather pay a CEO $100k to bring in $1million in charity funds, or pay a CEO $1million to bring in $5million in charity funds?
Personally I'd rather pay five CEOs $100k each to bring in $5million, than one CEO double that for the same net effect.
There is only so much money people will give to charity in a given year. It's entirely possible that the larger charities with higher expense ratios starve out smaller charities that are more efficient at spending the money the receive, so the net effect is worse.
Personally I'd rather pay five CEOs $100k each to bring in $5million, than one CEO double that for the same net effect.
There is only so much money people will give to charity in a given year. It's entirely possible that the larger charities with higher expense ratios starve out smaller charities that are more efficient at spending the money the receive, so the net effect is worse.
That's assuming the five CEOs aren't going to go after the same $1million each. A more talented CEO might be able to bring in new streams of money.
Y'all are bringing up a ton of hypotheticals that don't matter to my main point: Talent costs money. The optimal end result may end up spending a lot of money on that talent to bring in the most amount of money.
This includes hiring an agency to run a fun run (the original scenario) when having it be run by amateurs might end up with it failing for a million reasons (low turnout, insufficient staffing, etc).
Y'all are bringing up a ton of hypotheticals that don't matter to my main point: Talent costs money. The optimal end result may end up spending a lot of money on that talent to bring in the most amount of money.
This includes hiring an agency to run a fun run (the original scenario) when having it be run by amateurs might end up with it failing for a million reasons (low turnout, insufficient staffing, etc).
"Talent costs money"
And yet that argument is never made to justify paying line-workers more. Non-profits often pay regular workers less than public sector or private sector jobs because "the mission is the reward". Shouldn't the same apply to non-profit leadership?
And yet that argument is never made to justify paying line-workers more. Non-profits often pay regular workers less than public sector or private sector jobs because "the mission is the reward". Shouldn't the same apply to non-profit leadership?
>And yet that argument is never made to justify paying line-workers more.
This isn't an argument to "justify paying the leadership more". That's backwards. This is an argument to say that when you're a board member trying to fill a leadership role, it might be worth it to spend a good amount of money to bring in people who would otherwise never take the role.
If you want a line-worker argument, it's similar to when people start trying to outsource software work to cheap firms and are then surprised when the results aren't satisfactory. Bring in line workers (software workers in this case) who cost more but are better and you might have better end results.
You shouldn't just pay the outsourcing firm more money and expect better results. In the same way you shouldn't "justify paying the leadership more", you should find leadership who are worth more money.
In both cases, it's possible you find the holy grail of someone wiling to work for the cause for little money and are also talented, but it's much more difficult.
This isn't an argument to "justify paying the leadership more". That's backwards. This is an argument to say that when you're a board member trying to fill a leadership role, it might be worth it to spend a good amount of money to bring in people who would otherwise never take the role.
If you want a line-worker argument, it's similar to when people start trying to outsource software work to cheap firms and are then surprised when the results aren't satisfactory. Bring in line workers (software workers in this case) who cost more but are better and you might have better end results.
You shouldn't just pay the outsourcing firm more money and expect better results. In the same way you shouldn't "justify paying the leadership more", you should find leadership who are worth more money.
In both cases, it's possible you find the holy grail of someone wiling to work for the cause for little money and are also talented, but it's much more difficult.
> work for the cause for little money
I never said "little money". Leadership roles signify high status, so you have to pay an upper-middle-class or upper class salary for the area.
But is it not fair to assume that nearly everyone who cares more about the money and is talented enough to take a leadership role, has already gone to the private sector? A desirable CEO candidate determined to stay in the non-profit world is far more likely to look at whether the org excites them, than how much it's paying (again, as long as it's an upper-middle to upper class salary).
For line workers it really may just be a paycheck.
I never said "little money". Leadership roles signify high status, so you have to pay an upper-middle-class or upper class salary for the area.
But is it not fair to assume that nearly everyone who cares more about the money and is talented enough to take a leadership role, has already gone to the private sector? A desirable CEO candidate determined to stay in the non-profit world is far more likely to look at whether the org excites them, than how much it's paying (again, as long as it's an upper-middle to upper class salary).
For line workers it really may just be a paycheck.
Talent may cost money, and there are a few highly sought after precious examples of those people, but the world is swarming with parasites with absolutely no talent but lots of social standing they want to maintain by being seen as acting charitably (like Trump's failsons), desperately competing with each other to con you out of your money, and that's what you usually end up with.
In principle a competent CEO who truly brings in "novel" money to a charity more than a cheap one is worth it. Note my use of the word Novel above because it is to differentiate between money a charity makes by just poaching money that would have gone to some charity anyways from money that would not be spent philanthropically otherwise.
If Robin Mahfood can justify his 400k CEO paycheck for "Food for Poor" (real name and number) and also promise that all the new money he brought in was actually money that would have been squandered otherwise, then Robin Mahfood is indeed a worthwhile expenditure. I doubt that's the case most of the time, though.
Nevertheless, these might not be comparable scenarios anyways - an expensive CEO might atleast make financial sense if not a moral one. It's just a stretch to say a very low margin charity event is even a financially viable event, and hopefully your million dollar CeO can see that and avoid it for his charity.
If Robin Mahfood can justify his 400k CEO paycheck for "Food for Poor" (real name and number) and also promise that all the new money he brought in was actually money that would have been squandered otherwise, then Robin Mahfood is indeed a worthwhile expenditure. I doubt that's the case most of the time, though.
Nevertheless, these might not be comparable scenarios anyways - an expensive CEO might atleast make financial sense if not a moral one. It's just a stretch to say a very low margin charity event is even a financially viable event, and hopefully your million dollar CeO can see that and avoid it for his charity.
> charity makes by just poaching money that would have gone to some charity anyways
No, “money going to charities” is not all one bucket. A huge chunk of charities are incompetent or are just stupid ideas to begin with. It’s better for 70% of my donation to go to a competent charity than 90% to a pointless one, even if that 20% difference is going to the CEO.
Checkout givewell.org to learn about the importance of picking good charities. It is critical to poach charity money from bad charities.
No, “money going to charities” is not all one bucket. A huge chunk of charities are incompetent or are just stupid ideas to begin with. It’s better for 70% of my donation to go to a competent charity than 90% to a pointless one, even if that 20% difference is going to the CEO.
Checkout givewell.org to learn about the importance of picking good charities. It is critical to poach charity money from bad charities.
>Would you rather ...
How are they going to raise the money, does the one raising $5M blindly do so by enlisting a third party to pay poverty wages to young people to con pensioners out of their money (usual way is to trick them in to signing a monthly payment when they think they're paying a one-off [to get rid of the annoying person invading their home]) on the doorstep?
Do CEOs only act competently for immoral sums of money?
How about the CEO does an honest days work, raises what they can without defrauding people and gets paid at most, say, 3 times the median salary of everyone employed by the organisation?
There's a good chance that even if the CEO is honest and completely above board all they're doing is stopping other charities getting money. That is, splitting the pot differently. So, perhaps the $100k is far better - was overall the charity sector gets more to spend on charitable aims.
How are they going to raise the money, does the one raising $5M blindly do so by enlisting a third party to pay poverty wages to young people to con pensioners out of their money (usual way is to trick them in to signing a monthly payment when they think they're paying a one-off [to get rid of the annoying person invading their home]) on the doorstep?
Do CEOs only act competently for immoral sums of money?
How about the CEO does an honest days work, raises what they can without defrauding people and gets paid at most, say, 3 times the median salary of everyone employed by the organisation?
There's a good chance that even if the CEO is honest and completely above board all they're doing is stopping other charities getting money. That is, splitting the pot differently. So, perhaps the $100k is far better - was overall the charity sector gets more to spend on charitable aims.
100k may be better for the overall charitable sector, but its worse for this particular charity. It's the tragedy of the commons. It's a well-studied problem, and there's no non-centralized solution to that problem.
My wife worked for a non-profit theater (12 million/year budget, 4 million from donations, 8 million from ticket sales. Most of the donations are from major donors - 5K and more.) Its 'CEO' was the best-paid person in the theater, paid ~230k/year. The stagehands, who were making ~$25/hour would grouse non-stop about how much he was paid. From what I know of him, and his job, (mostly fundraising), I am almost positive that he was a profit center for the theater. If he left three months from now, their financials would not improve.
Now, it's entirely possible that someone else in his position, who would take the job for $130,000/year, and would raise as much, or more money. Or maybe someone else would raise even more money, and expect $500,000/year.
I think that for that particular theater, they'd probably be wrong to fire their CEO, if their goal was to cut costs.
My wife worked for a non-profit theater (12 million/year budget, 4 million from donations, 8 million from ticket sales. Most of the donations are from major donors - 5K and more.) Its 'CEO' was the best-paid person in the theater, paid ~230k/year. The stagehands, who were making ~$25/hour would grouse non-stop about how much he was paid. From what I know of him, and his job, (mostly fundraising), I am almost positive that he was a profit center for the theater. If he left three months from now, their financials would not improve.
Now, it's entirely possible that someone else in his position, who would take the job for $130,000/year, and would raise as much, or more money. Or maybe someone else would raise even more money, and expect $500,000/year.
I think that for that particular theater, they'd probably be wrong to fire their CEO, if their goal was to cut costs.
A very pessimistic view of everything!
I can't say anything about your fraud or conning comments. Obviously that's bad, and I worry that you're arguing in bad faith by bringing that up.
My main point is that being the leader of a large organization that brings in lots of money is a skill that is highly sought after. If you want to attract that kind of person then you'll have to pay for it, or find the 1 in [some large number of people] that has both the skills needed and the willingness to work for much lower than the rest of the market would pay them.
I can't say anything about your fraud or conning comments. Obviously that's bad, and I worry that you're arguing in bad faith by bringing that up.
My main point is that being the leader of a large organization that brings in lots of money is a skill that is highly sought after. If you want to attract that kind of person then you'll have to pay for it, or find the 1 in [some large number of people] that has both the skills needed and the willingness to work for much lower than the rest of the market would pay them.
Frankly non-profits and for-profits are usually not competing for the same CEO pool. And for non-profit leadership, compensation should not be a motivating factor - assuming they're already paid enough to live an upper-class lifestyle in their area. The mission of charity should be what matters.
Well, if the charity is run for your own ego, then I would prefer the one who brings 1M.
In most realistic scenarios I would pay attention to efficiency first.
In most realistic scenarios I would pay attention to efficiency first.
What if you prefer to get the most money you can to the cause that you care about?
I would prefer to invest in 5 charities instead.
First, they sometimes get very little. “Just 1% of Seattle Marathon money goes to charity” [1]. You’d do better to just go door to door.
Second, often this “awareness” is completely absent, even among volunteers. I ran a race once where the primary charity was lung cancer research, and volunteers along the course were smoking.
[1]: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/just-1-of-seattle-...
Second, often this “awareness” is completely absent, even among volunteers. I ran a race once where the primary charity was lung cancer research, and volunteers along the course were smoking.
[1]: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/just-1-of-seattle-...
>Second, often this “awareness” is completely absent, even among volunteers. I ran a race once where the primary charity was lung cancer research, and volunteers along the course were smoking.
What exactly is the issue with volunteers smoking? Is it that they might physically or emotionally trigger someone?
What exactly is the issue with volunteers smoking? Is it that they might physically or emotionally trigger someone?
Cigarettes trigger lung cancer. Frankly I'm surprised you needed somebody to "raise your awareness" about that. But now you know!
I am honestly still missing exactly what the poster finds offensive.
Is it a fear of second hand smoke related illness? Do they find the irony upsetting? Something else
Yes, cigarettes cause lung cancer. Does that mean smokers should be disqualified for volunteering at a lung cancer charity? They probably have more of a vested interest in the charity than the general population.
Is it a fear of second hand smoke related illness? Do they find the irony upsetting? Something else
Yes, cigarettes cause lung cancer. Does that mean smokers should be disqualified for volunteering at a lung cancer charity? They probably have more of a vested interest in the charity than the general population.
I am honestly still missing why you are so offended by somebody not wanting people to smoke at a lung cancer charity event, that you would call them names like "triggered"? You're not being honest when you claim you can't figure out what the poster finds offensive. They find the lung cancer caused by second hand cigarette smoke upsetting, not the irony of the situation. And you "honestly" couldn't figure that out?
None of your straw men make any sense. Nobody is asking for smokers to be disqualified, just for them to control themselves for a few moments and not smoke at a lung cancer charity event.
You calling somebody else "triggered" is ironic too: Why are you feigning moral outrage about somebody else being "triggered", which in their case is totally justified and absolutely harmless, more than you're honestly outraged at somebody else not just ironically but hypocritically smoking a cigarette at a lung cancer charity event, which is physically dangerous to them and other people, reeks to high hell, and is totally ignorant, clueless, disrespectful, and rude, flaunting the whole point of the event? They're practically blowing smoke in other people's faces. Yet that doesn't offend you, while other people being offended by it does.
Get some perspective and stop pretending to be so triggered and outraged yourself. Being "triggered" at somebody smoking in a totally inappropriate situation like that is not worse or even close to a smoker making a mockery of a lung cancer charity event by flagrantly giving themselves and other people lung cancer at the event. And you getting so triggered yourself that you disparagingly call somebody else triggered isn't a very convincing argument. It's the textbook definition of projection.
And "honestly": pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity pretending to be concerned, is called "sealioning".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
None of your straw men make any sense. Nobody is asking for smokers to be disqualified, just for them to control themselves for a few moments and not smoke at a lung cancer charity event.
You calling somebody else "triggered" is ironic too: Why are you feigning moral outrage about somebody else being "triggered", which in their case is totally justified and absolutely harmless, more than you're honestly outraged at somebody else not just ironically but hypocritically smoking a cigarette at a lung cancer charity event, which is physically dangerous to them and other people, reeks to high hell, and is totally ignorant, clueless, disrespectful, and rude, flaunting the whole point of the event? They're practically blowing smoke in other people's faces. Yet that doesn't offend you, while other people being offended by it does.
Get some perspective and stop pretending to be so triggered and outraged yourself. Being "triggered" at somebody smoking in a totally inappropriate situation like that is not worse or even close to a smoker making a mockery of a lung cancer charity event by flagrantly giving themselves and other people lung cancer at the event. And you getting so triggered yourself that you disparagingly call somebody else triggered isn't a very convincing argument. It's the textbook definition of projection.
And "honestly": pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity pretending to be concerned, is called "sealioning".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Sometimes text is not the best medium for communication. I intdended to ask a concise and honest question and I am sorry if you took offense.
>What exactly is the issue with volunteers smoking? Is it that they might physically or emotionally trigger someone?
Triggered isn't exclusively a slur, but a real phenomenon, though often misused.
Smoke triggering a physical reaction in a post-op cancer survivor may be a legitimate concern, as would be triggering a emotional response in people who lost a loved one.
It was not and is not clear from Ken's post that this was his rationale, and rather some relation between smoking and cause "awareness". I have lost family members to lung cancer, and have other family members who still smoke. I have seen people smoke as they die of lung cancer. I do not think it is for lack of "awareness".
Also, it seems like you have a very different mental image of what was described, and a very different reaction to it. Seeing someone self harm at such and event would make me sad, not angry. They are literally the class of people the event is trying to support.
>What exactly is the issue with volunteers smoking? Is it that they might physically or emotionally trigger someone?
Triggered isn't exclusively a slur, but a real phenomenon, though often misused.
Smoke triggering a physical reaction in a post-op cancer survivor may be a legitimate concern, as would be triggering a emotional response in people who lost a loved one.
It was not and is not clear from Ken's post that this was his rationale, and rather some relation between smoking and cause "awareness". I have lost family members to lung cancer, and have other family members who still smoke. I have seen people smoke as they die of lung cancer. I do not think it is for lack of "awareness".
Also, it seems like you have a very different mental image of what was described, and a very different reaction to it. Seeing someone self harm at such and event would make me sad, not angry. They are literally the class of people the event is trying to support.
But people think they are donating money to a charity, not purchasing an experience from an event company. It’s misleading at best.
There's no need to mislead potential participants. Just post information on the event web site showing where their registration fees go and let them decide.
I don’t think it’s the participants who are being mislead the most, though. It’s the donors. The people who “sponsor” the participants.
Arrangements vary by event and production company but typically participant registration fees cover the management company's charges. Any additional donations from sponsors go directly to the charity, minus a small processing fee. Of course you might be able to find exceptions to that rule.
As someone involved in a very local run this weekend, people aren't that dumb. They know that there will be a company making sure the run actually works, and a small portion of proceeds goes to the charity. Actually, it really depends on the number of runners, so after a hundred or so runners, the amount to charity increases per additional runner.
It's a bit like saying that people play the lottery and think it is an effective way to support education in their state. No they don't. They know most of the money doesn't support education, but even if a small amount does, the other benefit (playing the lottery or running a 5k) is still worth something to them.
It's a bit like saying that people play the lottery and think it is an effective way to support education in their state. No they don't. They know most of the money doesn't support education, but even if a small amount does, the other benefit (playing the lottery or running a 5k) is still worth something to them.
>It’s misleading at best.
Is it though? Not everyone who participates does it to support a charity. Some people just want to do the event.
Obviously it's more efficient to simply not hold the event and have all the resources that would be spend on running an event simply go to the charity ... but that's not the point. You're doing the event, because you want the event.
Is it though? Not everyone who participates does it to support a charity. Some people just want to do the event.
Obviously it's more efficient to simply not hold the event and have all the resources that would be spend on running an event simply go to the charity ... but that's not the point. You're doing the event, because you want the event.
> I realized that the firm’s fees would greatly exceed the amount of money that would end up going to the charity.
So who pays the bill for the firm's fees? Might be okay if it's a "sponsored by megacorp" kind of thing, but if it's just a civic-minded individual who's actually trying to run a real fundraiser?
So who pays the bill for the firm's fees? Might be okay if it's a "sponsored by megacorp" kind of thing, but if it's just a civic-minded individual who's actually trying to run a real fundraiser?
> In the end the charity still gets more money than they had before and the runners get some exercise
So "they" should be thankful for any old crumbs left on the table after their betters are done patting themselves on the back?
Honestly, I prefer the Randian take on charity to this. At least that one has the virtue of not obfuscating.
So "they" should be thankful for any old crumbs left on the table after their betters are done patting themselves on the back?
Honestly, I prefer the Randian take on charity to this. At least that one has the virtue of not obfuscating.
> N=1, of course, but I have had an extremely cynical view of charity events ever since. There appears to be an entire industry built around siphoning away 90%-99% of every dollar adjacent to charity.
Kubernetes appears to be built around siphoning away 90%-99% of my CPU when I tried to use it to manage a 100 item todo list on my Chromebook.
N=1 of course.
Kubernetes appears to be built around siphoning away 90%-99% of my CPU when I tried to use it to manage a 100 item todo list on my Chromebook.
N=1 of course.
This study was published in 1999 and while it is a wonderful example of incentives gone awry, it’s also dated.
Per the article, “All charity parachuting in our study was apparently done by static line methods from 2500± 3000 feet.” [1] Static line parachuting means the participant jumps solo and a cord automatically opens the parachute for them when they exit the plane. It’s very different than skydiving tandem, which is far more common these days and much safer.
That still doesn’t mean that skydiving for charity makes any sense financially. It strikes me as absurd that people who want to skydive collect money from friends under the expectation that a small percentage of the donated funds make their way to a charity —- £30 per jump for the NHS, though apparently more for other organizations. [2]
But then this comes from a country that is trying to convince the rest of the world that wearing a clown nose for a day is a charitable act. [3]
Y’all can’t just give for the sake of giving? ;-)
[1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1999-lee.pdf
[2] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224643/Why-tell-ch...
[3] https://rednoseday.org/
Per the article, “All charity parachuting in our study was apparently done by static line methods from 2500± 3000 feet.” [1] Static line parachuting means the participant jumps solo and a cord automatically opens the parachute for them when they exit the plane. It’s very different than skydiving tandem, which is far more common these days and much safer.
That still doesn’t mean that skydiving for charity makes any sense financially. It strikes me as absurd that people who want to skydive collect money from friends under the expectation that a small percentage of the donated funds make their way to a charity —- £30 per jump for the NHS, though apparently more for other organizations. [2]
But then this comes from a country that is trying to convince the rest of the world that wearing a clown nose for a day is a charitable act. [3]
Y’all can’t just give for the sake of giving? ;-)
[1] https://www.gwern.net/docs/sociology/1999-lee.pdf
[2] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224643/Why-tell-ch...
[3] https://rednoseday.org/
I have never understood this either. It might seem a bit cynical but it often feels a bit like someone trying to:
1. Do something cool they always wanted to
2. Get someone else to pay for it
3. Get some feel-good story to tell their friends in the process
Perhaps it’s not the case, and that most people are well intentioned, don’t think about it this way and aren’t trying to do anything nefarious. But it’s hard to shake the idea once it’s in your head :-/
1. Do something cool they always wanted to
2. Get someone else to pay for it
3. Get some feel-good story to tell their friends in the process
Perhaps it’s not the case, and that most people are well intentioned, don’t think about it this way and aren’t trying to do anything nefarious. But it’s hard to shake the idea once it’s in your head :-/
My uncle once asked me to sponsor him to do a charity marathon. I contacted the charity and found out that at most 50% of my donation would go to the charity and the rest would pay for him training and event fees.
I did sponsor him but I kept thinking it would have been better to send 100% of my donation directly to the charity in my uncle's name. Of course that would have been a lot less fun for my uncle.
I did sponsor him but I kept thinking it would have been better to send 100% of my donation directly to the charity in my uncle's name. Of course that would have been a lot less fun for my uncle.
I think the question is - would you have donated, to any cause, without your Uncle?
I'm not asking to be combative - it's a legitimate question millions have to ask themselves. My friends and I participated in the ice-bucket challenge. We would not have done what we did w/o such a ridiculous, yet fun, method of virality.
To me, it is about 'effective' money. With your uncle + the organization, was the money more effective with or without?
There is an interesting TED talk from 2013 that highlights a semi-counterintuitive problem - if you can't pay top dollar, you can't get top dollar talent except in extremely narrow cases[0].
My interpretation is, we would love 100% of our charitable donations to reach the village who needs water or a toilet, but the reality is, people who run the org need to get paid as well.
Measuring a charity by how stingy it is might actually be less effective overall.
Anecdote: Bill and Melinda Gates foundation absolutely pays top dollar (of charities) to gain some of the smartest former execs in the industry. They're wildly effective.
[0] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_abou...
I'm not asking to be combative - it's a legitimate question millions have to ask themselves. My friends and I participated in the ice-bucket challenge. We would not have done what we did w/o such a ridiculous, yet fun, method of virality.
To me, it is about 'effective' money. With your uncle + the organization, was the money more effective with or without?
There is an interesting TED talk from 2013 that highlights a semi-counterintuitive problem - if you can't pay top dollar, you can't get top dollar talent except in extremely narrow cases[0].
My interpretation is, we would love 100% of our charitable donations to reach the village who needs water or a toilet, but the reality is, people who run the org need to get paid as well.
Measuring a charity by how stingy it is might actually be less effective overall.
Anecdote: Bill and Melinda Gates foundation absolutely pays top dollar (of charities) to gain some of the smartest former execs in the industry. They're wildly effective.
[0] https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pallotta_the_way_we_think_abou...
I certainly would not have known about this particular charity without my uncle. However, had he told me it was an important cause to him and simply asked me to join him in donating, I would have.
I guess another question is whether my uncle would have made that effort without the marathon.
I guess another question is whether my uncle would have made that effort without the marathon.
Without the marathon, you might not have made an unsolicited donation (of that same amount) to that particular charity.
The marathon’s cut is a marketing expense. It may be better to get one slice of a bigger pie than all of a tiny/non-existent dessert.
The marathon’s cut is a marketing expense. It may be better to get one slice of a bigger pie than all of a tiny/non-existent dessert.
Ugh... just makes me think of selling junk for school "fundraisers". Just let me write a check!
These days schools do just ask directly for a donation via check if the parents afford it. Most schools don't have time to run a sales operation for useless stuff in addition to their primary job of educating children. And most schools' funding gap is far greater than can be raised by children selling tchotchkes.
People have come to the sober realization that the only way public schools get sufficient funding in the US (and to a lesser extent in the UK) is from private donations. The system has now baked this in as an assumption, even building local real estate markets around the shared consensus to privately financially support neighborhood schools.
People have come to the sober realization that the only way public schools get sufficient funding in the US (and to a lesser extent in the UK) is from private donations. The system has now baked this in as an assumption, even building local real estate markets around the shared consensus to privately financially support neighborhood schools.
How many donations have you made to that charity subsequently?
If everyone wins, why is this bad?
As long as the person raising the money does 'something they always wanted to' under their own dime and raises money, I can't see anything wrong with it. Obviously, this article highlights there's a fundamental but obscure flaw with this specific method.
As long as the person raising the money does 'something they always wanted to' under their own dime and raises money, I can't see anything wrong with it. Obviously, this article highlights there's a fundamental but obscure flaw with this specific method.
something they always wanted to' under their own dime
That’s the problem. The sponsors think they are giving a donation to the charity, whereas the charity actually only gets what’s left over after the expensive fun has been had.
When I have done sponsored things I have always covered the costs myself and handed all the sponsors money over.
That’s the problem. The sponsors think they are giving a donation to the charity, whereas the charity actually only gets what’s left over after the expensive fun has been had.
When I have done sponsored things I have always covered the costs myself and handed all the sponsors money over.
I've done a sponsored charity parachute jump (static line). I paid for the jump and 100% of the funds raised went to the charity.
I wonder if they actually have enough data for the claims in the abstract. 30 pounds seems abysmally low even by '99 standards.
I wonder if they actually have enough data for the claims in the abstract. 30 pounds seems abysmally low even by '99 standards.
That plus people are incorrectly assuming that it's bad that the charity gets leftovers. That money is still a net positive which they wouldn't have made otherwise as well as an increase in sponsors via the event. The amount of cynicism here is daft.
Well this is the reason I’m conflicted about how I feel about it.
depends on the goal. I've parachuted for a charity event before. It's more about the awareness than anything as well. You tend to use an event that attracts people because of some interest factor and it in turn generates more awareness to that charity as well as more sponsors. It's not just about the skydiving after all. Think of it as a form of marketing but for [marketing to] people interested in people doing something stupid.
Edit: I should say I did this as an A-license holder
Edit: I should say I did this as an A-license holder
As a person with rosacea, I found wearing the giant red clown nose offensive. Nobody, of course, takes me seriously even though I am mostly serious. I wrote a slew of angry letters for the organizations behind the red-nose chastising them for mocking and appropriating the symptoms of a disease.
https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/UCD%20School%20of%20Medicine%20Rosa...
https://www.ucd.ie/t4cms/UCD%20School%20of%20Medicine%20Rosa...
> The injury rate in charity-parachutists was 11%
That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?
That's how-are-they-even-allowed-to-operate high. Can this really be right?
At first I was thinking no big deal, it probably includes things like minor scrapes and bruises from the landing, but then I saw this:
>Sixty-three percent of casualties who were charity-parachutists required hospital admission, representing a serious injury rate of 7%
Can any skydivers give insight on this?
>Sixty-three percent of casualties who were charity-parachutists required hospital admission, representing a serious injury rate of 7%
Can any skydivers give insight on this?
I'll bite. Assuming those charity parachutists were doing solo jumps using the static line system, it makes sense. The static line exit isn't dangerous per se, but the landing can be... challenging. For example, the old style round parachute couldn't be slowed down on landing, it had a constant rate of descent. On landing,you had to hit the ground and do a PLF [1].
The square canopy (or the ram-air canopy) can indeed be slowed down. It's also a lot more manoeuvrable, and can go quite fast. A novice might not be able to correctly judge the speed/altitude/wind direction - and if not handled properly, a square canopy can land you on your face or break a leg.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_landing_fall
EDIT: spelling and added a link
The square canopy (or the ram-air canopy) can indeed be slowed down. It's also a lot more manoeuvrable, and can go quite fast. A novice might not be able to correctly judge the speed/altitude/wind direction - and if not handled properly, a square canopy can land you on your face or break a leg.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute_landing_fall
EDIT: spelling and added a link
"For example, the old style round parachute couldn't be slowed down on landing"
In the late 90s, wouldn't they have been using the ones that you can fly like a wing? And I don't know how widespread it was, but possibly a radio to give you instructions, when to flare.
In the late 90s, wouldn't they have been using the ones that you can fly like a wing? And I don't know how widespread it was, but possibly a radio to give you instructions, when to flare.
Mostly inexperience/doing this with first timers played the major role
> The number of regular jumps by experienced enthusiasts done during this period is estimated at 50,000, giving an incidence of injury for regular parachutists of 0.02% – reflecting better expertise and training
> The number of regular jumps by experienced enthusiasts done during this period is estimated at 50,000, giving an incidence of injury for regular parachutists of 0.02% – reflecting better expertise and training
Skydiver here. I'm not familiar with this particular event, but that does seem rather high even for those years. In the USA we average ~1 incident per 250,000 sport skydives. Tandems are around 1 in 500,000.
You can find the USPA incidents here: https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety
You can find the USPA incidents here: https://uspa.org/Find/FAQs/Safety
I think they are fatality stats, not injury.
That sounds extremely high to me, but I couldn't find which 5 year period was studied. Back in round parachute days, injuries were much more common. Most people who have jumped in the last 30 years have never seen someone use a roundy.
These days most people do tandems, and if you follow instructions and raise your legs upon landing, you won't get hurt.
These days most people do tandems, and if you follow instructions and raise your legs upon landing, you won't get hurt.
Pfffff, I used a roundy for my first jump here in the UK only yesterday! I mean 1998. Which suddenly seems like yesterday. Jeez...
Back in 1996 (I think), I had the impression they were obsolete, and during the instructional session before jumping, we were told to pay attention because once a guy who had experience in the military thought he knew everything from jumping with the round ones, and didn't listen and died as a consequence. I think it was something about the reserve being automatic on a military rig and not on a civilian one.
I'm a skydiver. My guess (without knowing any details): while regular skydiving is rather safe, event jumps are much riskier. There's the unknown terrain, a usually much smaller landing zone, obstacles (trees etc). Low turns might be necessary, leading to a high speed landing. And there's also a psychological variable (many people are watching you). All those factors make the landing much more difficult.
This seems way too high and is probably the result of not enough data.
Bear in mind that you wouldn't do a jump for charity if you wanted to it anyway. Their usual clientele would probably be very fit and young, whereas charity jumpers would be more likely to be old or unfit.
So I'm sure their overall injury rates are lower
So I'm sure their overall injury rates are lower
That doesn't ring true to me at all. Almost all of the people I've seen do some kind of charity extreme sport event would definitely have done it without the charity part if that was an option.
I was actually chatting to some friends about this the other day.
I personally would love to go skydiving but I wouldn't get sponsored for it because it isn't actually hard. Unlike running a marathon for instance, it doesn't require any preparation on my part or any superhuman effort, just a lot of cash.
I think most people who do feats of endurance for charity (marathons, cycling, mountaineering, etc) would probably like to do it anyway but it's fair to ask for sponsorship money because of the effort involved.
I personally would love to go skydiving but I wouldn't get sponsored for it because it isn't actually hard. Unlike running a marathon for instance, it doesn't require any preparation on my part or any superhuman effort, just a lot of cash.
I think most people who do feats of endurance for charity (marathons, cycling, mountaineering, etc) would probably like to do it anyway but it's fair to ask for sponsorship money because of the effort involved.
Why would doing a marathon and pretending to do it for other reasons than doing a marathon be any different? The only reason separating endurance sports efforts "for charity" from a hypothetical "candy crush for charity" or "Netflix binge for charity" is that the athletic efforts apparently impress some potential donors. If the same is true for courage dares like fixed line parachuting then so be it.
An entirely orthogonal question is how event costs are funded: do participants pay out of their own pocket or is it taken from the donations pool? If it's the latter I'd call it borderline charity fraud, no matter if the activity is running, flaggelation, parachuting or smoking weed.
The usual compromise, I think, is clear separation between sponsors (who fund the event) and donors (whose money is given to charity with zero cut or expenses deduction). It's hard to find something to criticize in that model, if someone wants to sponsor entertainment, fine. If tens of thousands of sponsorship dollars yield tens of donation dollars, still fine: the assumption that the tens of thousands would have been donated otherwise cannot be made.
(it still might get muddy if that sponsorship somehow gets different tax treatment than other business expenses or if the main beneficiary of those costs, either as participant or as organizer, is the CEO or something like that but that's totally besides the question of parachuting vs endurance)
An entirely orthogonal question is how event costs are funded: do participants pay out of their own pocket or is it taken from the donations pool? If it's the latter I'd call it borderline charity fraud, no matter if the activity is running, flaggelation, parachuting or smoking weed.
The usual compromise, I think, is clear separation between sponsors (who fund the event) and donors (whose money is given to charity with zero cut or expenses deduction). It's hard to find something to criticize in that model, if someone wants to sponsor entertainment, fine. If tens of thousands of sponsorship dollars yield tens of donation dollars, still fine: the assumption that the tens of thousands would have been donated otherwise cannot be made.
(it still might get muddy if that sponsorship somehow gets different tax treatment than other business expenses or if the main beneficiary of those costs, either as participant or as organizer, is the CEO or something like that but that's totally besides the question of parachuting vs endurance)
Skydiving does not require "a lot of cash".
You don't have to buy a parachute! Or an airplane, for that matter.
You don't have to buy a parachute! Or an airplane, for that matter.
Yes, that figure is probably right. I did my first parachute jump in the summer of '98, a year before this study. It was a static line jump, using a round canopy; ancient stuff even then! I had wanted to skydive for a long time, so it wasn't a "charity jump."
However, almost everyone else on my course was - they were really young as well, a bit naive and maybe a little dazed by the idea of jumping out of a plane. Some of them were Chinese/Korean students, with a very, very rudimentary grasp of the English language; I genuinely have no idea how they all passed the course, but they did. When they went on to jump, I think just under half of them ended up with broken legs/sprained ankles and so on. If my memory serves me right during the same drop the jumpmaster managed to kill himself too.
To sum up, 11% sounds about right.
However, almost everyone else on my course was - they were really young as well, a bit naive and maybe a little dazed by the idea of jumping out of a plane. Some of them were Chinese/Korean students, with a very, very rudimentary grasp of the English language; I genuinely have no idea how they all passed the course, but they did. When they went on to jump, I think just under half of them ended up with broken legs/sprained ankles and so on. If my memory serves me right during the same drop the jumpmaster managed to kill himself too.
To sum up, 11% sounds about right.
Wait, you're not exactly sure whether your instructor died or not?
Just how drunk were you? Mushrooms are way more rewarding anyways.
Just how drunk were you? Mushrooms are way more rewarding anyways.
Not very drunk at all :)
The instructor's name was Andrew Kelly, and the time was May 1998 [1] - quite a long time ago, so forgive my foggy memory. I wasn't on that particular load; I had already done my first jump a few days before...and my second jump 3 days after he passed.
[1] - http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8...
The instructor's name was Andrew Kelly, and the time was May 1998 [1] - quite a long time ago, so forgive my foggy memory. I wasn't on that particular load; I had already done my first jump a few days before...and my second jump 3 days after he passed.
[1] - http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/search.asp?MinDate=5%2F8...
Ah fair play, makes sense.
This is round parachute static line. You hit the ground at about the same speed as jumping from 10 feet. Completely manageable on a windless day or over a freshly plowed field. Outside of those conditions, it’s a shitshow.
[deleted]
I have always found the premise of “run for charity” or “jump for charity” weird. If I thought a cause was worthwhile, I would donate to it. Why does someone running or jumping have anything to do with me donating?
Ditto for all the dozens or maybe even hundreds of new charities that are formed each week (at least in the United States).
It seems like instead of having a hundred thousand micro-charities, it would be better if the money were just sent directly to a large charity that already operates at scale and can use the money more efficiently.
Sending $100 to Doctors Without Borders is far more effective than giving $100 to The Dr. Steffy McStethoscope Memorial Fund For People Who Want To Make Themselves Feel Good.
It's like "raising awareness." It doesn't help anyone but the people trying to make themselves feel better about themselves.
It seems like instead of having a hundred thousand micro-charities, it would be better if the money were just sent directly to a large charity that already operates at scale and can use the money more efficiently.
Sending $100 to Doctors Without Borders is far more effective than giving $100 to The Dr. Steffy McStethoscope Memorial Fund For People Who Want To Make Themselves Feel Good.
It's like "raising awareness." It doesn't help anyone but the people trying to make themselves feel better about themselves.
It would be even better if there were just and progressive taxes, so that the state can take its responsibility, and charity is not required.
> It seems like instead of having a hundred thousand micro-charities, it would be better if the money were just sent directly to a large charity that already operates at scale and can use the money more efficiently.
We could call it "taxes".
We could call it "taxes".
Except that (again in the United States which I point out because the article is UK-focused), governments at all levels have been offloading their responsibilities for the common welfare onto private entities, often for-profit entities. And in many places simultaneously making it harder for charities to do their work.
People's charity preferences are very different from their tax preferences. In particular people prefer their tax money to be spent on their own country, while often giving money to foreigners.
Same here. The answer is, unsurprisingly, money. It's much easier to get sponsorship for the cost of a run or a jump when the event is also collecting money for charity.
(assuming that the costs are not outright taken from the donations pool, then the reason is still money, but in a much more self-serving way bordering on fraud)
(assuming that the costs are not outright taken from the donations pool, then the reason is still money, but in a much more self-serving way bordering on fraud)
It raises awareness and gets people to donate.
[deleted]
In other news, programs like Product (RED) cost much more in marketing and advertising than they raise.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070624105650/http://www.africo...
The question, I suppose, is whether it's better for charity that it collects a few dollars that it might have not received anyway.
The example in the OP is particularly egregious because it suggests that society is paying a high cost for a few dollars donated to charity.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070624105650/http://www.africo...
The question, I suppose, is whether it's better for charity that it collects a few dollars that it might have not received anyway.
The example in the OP is particularly egregious because it suggests that society is paying a high cost for a few dollars donated to charity.
This brings back memories.
Used to work for an NHS hospital trust.
The chief executive made a rather rash, very public announcement (under peer pressure) that he was going to do a skydive for the hospital charity.
Lots of jokes etc.
But he was going to do it.
Until our chief medical director took him aside and told him about the injury rate and how they actually cost the NHS more.
Though a few people from the charity brought it up, it was politely forgotten about. And he did a walk around the peak district instead
Used to work for an NHS hospital trust.
The chief executive made a rather rash, very public announcement (under peer pressure) that he was going to do a skydive for the hospital charity.
Lots of jokes etc.
But he was going to do it.
Until our chief medical director took him aside and told him about the injury rate and how they actually cost the NHS more.
Though a few people from the charity brought it up, it was politely forgotten about. And he did a walk around the peak district instead
To be honest, many charity events cost more to organise and run than they collect in money.
A bit of a (related) tangent...
As a parent this is really obvious for almost all events that schools run. Of course, an argument in those cases is that they have educational value, but I think that teaching to do the maths and to be effective beyond the immediate desire to "help and do something" also has educational value.
Sometimes we, parents, have to spend £20 to get the child ready for the event where they are asked to donate £1 for the chosen charity...
A bit of a (related) tangent...
As a parent this is really obvious for almost all events that schools run. Of course, an argument in those cases is that they have educational value, but I think that teaching to do the maths and to be effective beyond the immediate desire to "help and do something" also has educational value.
Sometimes we, parents, have to spend £20 to get the child ready for the event where they are asked to donate £1 for the chosen charity...
Makes me think of this one time. It was me, and a first timer who'd been convinced by his gf it might cure his fear of heights.
Yada yada yada, he broke both his legs. Something tells me it didn't help much.
Yada yada yada, he broke both his legs. Something tells me it didn't help much.
This is 1999 and popping "parachute jump for NHS" into Google yields many results and let's not forget the ADsense promoted ones as well.
So a known issue and one perpetuated still today for profit. But this is a pattern we see play out over and over again and alas without some media drama incident of say a charity parachutist landing on a child in a playground with fatalities - nothing will change. Heck - look at bigger issues like climate change and how long that's been known about and how long it drags out.
Which makes you wonder why governments who have departments for everything, lack one for common sense education as many sound messages get lost in the void of nothingness.
So a known issue and one perpetuated still today for profit. But this is a pattern we see play out over and over again and alas without some media drama incident of say a charity parachutist landing on a child in a playground with fatalities - nothing will change. Heck - look at bigger issues like climate change and how long that's been known about and how long it drags out.
Which makes you wonder why governments who have departments for everything, lack one for common sense education as many sound messages get lost in the void of nothingness.
After a local epidemic of chuggers ("charity muggers") here there was a good newspaper article on some disreputable charities.
A bit of web searching took me here:
https://thedevilcorp.wordpress.com/
It's very enlightening and alarming!
A bit of web searching took me here:
https://thedevilcorp.wordpress.com/
It's very enlightening and alarming!
Published in 1999.
I've not heard of parachute jumps for charity in the USA. Is it more popular in the UK?
And if so, is it possible the existence of the NHS – making participants & charities somewhat more indifferent to the medical costs – is what's helping the popularity (& resource waste) here, in a classic 'moral hazard' situation?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
Have UK charities just figured out a way, via a slight nudge to wannabe parachuters, to siphon off some of the value of NHS coverage into their own program funds?
And if so, is it possible the existence of the NHS – making participants & charities somewhat more indifferent to the medical costs – is what's helping the popularity (& resource waste) here, in a classic 'moral hazard' situation?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
Have UK charities just figured out a way, via a slight nudge to wannabe parachuters, to siphon off some of the value of NHS coverage into their own program funds?
if you start from the assumption that each of us has a finite amount of money we will give to charity and that - one way or another - we will give that amount, then giving to things like fun runs and fancy balls (https://leukemiaball.org/) makes no sense at all (the donation pie is fixed). If, however, these activities increase the pie of actual donations, then holding them makes sense, so long as the increase in the size of the giving pie is not exceeded by the expense of holding these activities.
3 questions
* at what cost
* compared to what
* with what hard evidence
11% injury rate with 60% of those admitted to the hospital! Cost is not the main issue with this!
[deleted]
> "...and places a significant burden on health resources."
How can 174 people place significant burden on NHS? I understand their concern but certainly there are bigger fish to fry.
Also, more importantly, the analysis is completely flawed. Their ROI is based on the injuried, not all who donated and dived.
How can 174 people place significant burden on NHS? I understand their concern but certainly there are bigger fish to fry.
Also, more importantly, the analysis is completely flawed. Their ROI is based on the injuried, not all who donated and dived.
Parachute jumping for charity is not cost-effective in raising money, as the cost of treatment of the 11% who are injured is far in excess of any money raised by the rest.
There analysis is correct. They looked across all charity parachutists, the medical costs for those injured versus total amount raised.
How can it put a burden on the NHS?
Of 105 patients admitted to hospital, 66 (63%) required operative intervention.
Can you imagine the 1 or 2 hospitals dealing with this? The system overall can deal with it, but not the local providers.
There analysis is correct. They looked across all charity parachutists, the medical costs for those injured versus total amount raised.
How can it put a burden on the NHS?
Of 105 patients admitted to hospital, 66 (63%) required operative intervention.
Can you imagine the 1 or 2 hospitals dealing with this? The system overall can deal with it, but not the local providers.
Where does it mention the total universe of donors/jumpers? It says the average donation was 30 quid. That said, 30 to jump is not the same as 30 per donated.
Too many loose ends here, or a sloppy job at communication.
Too many loose ends here, or a sloppy job at communication.
It’s in the open access article. They calculated the “net” donation after costs.
Their analysis actually only focused on two centres in the east of Scotland.
There were ~1500 jumpers in 5 years across the two centres, of which 174 (11%) were injured at a cost of £3751 per injury.
There were ~1500 jumpers in 5 years across the two centres, of which 174 (11%) were injured at a cost of £3751 per injury.
These were a minuscule success, and I later thought that a “fun run” would be a good way to raise some money. I asked around about how to organize such things, and I was connected to a firm that organized these things as a service.
They took me to a nice lunch, which I thought was a bad sign. “Never buy anything in a room with a chandelier,” is the old saying, and while there was no chandelier in the restaurant, the metaphor was nevertheless on point.
When I finally got the actual details of how the run would operate, I realized that the firm’s fees would greatly exceed the amount of money that would end up going to the charity.
I speculate that the “market” for these services are people who want to buy some respectability. Had I gone though with the deal and the run was a success, everyone would think I was a nice person doing nice things for people in need, even if the actual numbers would show that I was a nice person doing nice things for a service company’s revenues.
N=1, of course, but I have had an extremely cynical view of charity events ever since. There appears to be an entire industry built around siphoning away 90%-99% of every dollar adjacent to charity.
———
* Bridge the card game, not the BASE-jumping location.