Why does organic milk last so much longer than regular milk? (2008)(scientificamerican.com)
scientificamerican.com
Why does organic milk last so much longer than regular milk? (2008)
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-organic-milk-lasts-longer/
90 comments
Milkman has come back into fashion recently. I’ve a guy delivering milk to my door three days a week now along with some other goodies. Super handy.
In Germany, the consumer demand for UHT is low as well. Fresh milk is prefered over that, UHT tastes weird for most. No idea where the article gets the idea from that Europeans care less about UHT.
I was going to comment basically the exact same thing but tried to do some reasearch first and came across an article [1] claiming that UHT (H-Milch) has a market share of a whopping 70% which does not match my personal experience at all. But it was the only article naming an actual number that I could find within a 5 minute google search.
[1] https://www.bwagrar.de/Aktuelles/Kuenftige-H-Milch-soll-mehr...
[1] https://www.bwagrar.de/Aktuelles/Kuenftige-H-Milch-soll-mehr...
I did a quick search and got a similar trend for Europe overall (although, like that article, there were no serious citations). I wonder if it could be including commercial uses, such as in restaurants or for manufacturers of milk-derived products (but not cheese as it seems UHT ruins the proteins needed for that).
Not sure if true, but it was explained to me once that UHT is more popular in hotter climates as it's easier to transport vs refridgerated lorries (France vs UK)
I noticed in France that UHT was very popular. Here in Germany, seems to be a mix with a preference for normal milk.
I noticed in France that UHT was very popular. Here in Germany, seems to be a mix with a preference for normal milk.
It's possible that consumers declare the they don't prefer UHT milk when asked but actually buy UHT milk without realising. In Greece, UHT milk is often sold in similar packaging as fresh milk (i.e. in plastic bottles rather than cartons) and placed in the refrigerated section alongside fresh milk.
To confuse matters further, some UHT milk is sold separately, outside the fridge and in the typical carton packaging that one expects it. So it's very easy to be confused about what is UHT and what is fresh, just by looking at where a product is and how it's packaged.
Of course you'd think that the taste would give the milk away- but I find that if UHT milk is refrigerated, its "burned milk" taste is much reduced and can easily fool someone who only drinks a little milk at a time or mixed with other foods or drinks, e.g. in their coffee or cereals.
To confuse matters further, some UHT milk is sold separately, outside the fridge and in the typical carton packaging that one expects it. So it's very easy to be confused about what is UHT and what is fresh, just by looking at where a product is and how it's packaged.
Of course you'd think that the taste would give the milk away- but I find that if UHT milk is refrigerated, its "burned milk" taste is much reduced and can easily fool someone who only drinks a little milk at a time or mixed with other foods or drinks, e.g. in their coffee or cereals.
I live in Canada (Quebec near the Ontario border) and I buy UHT milk once in a while as some backup milk just in case I run out before the next groceries and I happen to need some for a recipe or something. It was handy during the pandemic, where I tried (and still try) to minimize exposure.
I couldn't really taste the difference.
I couldn't really taste the difference.
This is also holds true in Finland. UHT milk is sold in Supermarkets but it's not something that people regularly consume. I personally haven't seen it served anywhere in the past decade.
UHT doesn't make milk not "fresh". Storing it for a long time before drinking it does. Amd UHT helps milk stay fresh longer.
The Wikipedia article seems to suggest that it's very popular in parts of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-temperature_process...
Here in Sweden no one really buys UHT milk. I guess all stores carry it but it's rather a niche product. However, during recent years we have gotten something that's sort of in between UHT and regular milk. I don't know exactly what the process is, maybe they it's just pasteurize it for a bit longer. You need to keep it refrigerated but it will last for weeks. Some people claims it taste a bit different. To me it tastes the same as regular milk. It tastes nothing like UHT though.
Here in Sweden no one really buys UHT milk. I guess all stores carry it but it's rather a niche product. However, during recent years we have gotten something that's sort of in between UHT and regular milk. I don't know exactly what the process is, maybe they it's just pasteurize it for a bit longer. You need to keep it refrigerated but it will last for weeks. Some people claims it taste a bit different. To me it tastes the same as regular milk. It tastes nothing like UHT though.
I think it is "ultra-filtered" milk. Somehow it's filtered to reduce microbe counts, and pasteurised at a slightly higher temperature than standard.
Yes, definitely better than UHT.
Yes, definitely better than UHT.
That's microfiltered milk and it's actually much worse than UHT:
Microfiltration (MF) of cheese milk has been proposed as an alternative to bactofugation for removal of bacterial spores. However, while good separation efficiency can be obtained, this technology has some drawbacks. First of all, for an efficient MF process, the milk would have to be skimmed prior to MF, which means that the cream phase, constituting ∼10% of milk volume, cannot be treated with MF and would require a high heat treatment to ensure inactivation of spores. Secondly, the MF retentate will typically constitute a considerably large volume than the bactofugate, again meaning that a large volume would have to be sterilized. Together, this could mean the involvement of a considerable proportion of sterilized materials being included in the cheese milk when applying MF for spore removal, with negative effects on cheese-making and cheese quality.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biolog...
In short, microfiltered milk is taken apart, sterilised or filtered separately, and then put back together again- probably the most processed kind of milk you can find in the market.
Microfiltration (MF) of cheese milk has been proposed as an alternative to bactofugation for removal of bacterial spores. However, while good separation efficiency can be obtained, this technology has some drawbacks. First of all, for an efficient MF process, the milk would have to be skimmed prior to MF, which means that the cream phase, constituting ∼10% of milk volume, cannot be treated with MF and would require a high heat treatment to ensure inactivation of spores. Secondly, the MF retentate will typically constitute a considerably large volume than the bactofugate, again meaning that a large volume would have to be sterilized. Together, this could mean the involvement of a considerable proportion of sterilized materials being included in the cheese milk when applying MF for spore removal, with negative effects on cheese-making and cheese quality.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biolog...
In short, microfiltered milk is taken apart, sterilised or filtered separately, and then put back together again- probably the most processed kind of milk you can find in the market.
This article is very out-dated.
Some organic milk brands nowadays are actually using very low temperature pasteurization, which heats the milk to 63°C for 30 minutes. It’s more expensive but considered to have a much better flavor.
https://www.thekitchn.com/what-is-vat-pasteurized-milk-16743...
Some organic milk brands nowadays are actually using very low temperature pasteurization, which heats the milk to 63°C for 30 minutes. It’s more expensive but considered to have a much better flavor.
https://www.thekitchn.com/what-is-vat-pasteurized-milk-16743...
Yes, this is the only kind I buy but even better is High Pressure Processing. This pasteurizes the milk with pressure rather than heat preserving all the desirable properties of raw milk without any of the risks. There is a company in Australia (Made By Cow) selling this kind of milk but it does not seem to have spread to other countries yet.
Sounds promising! I hadn’t heard of this before, but apparently it has recently been approved for use in Canada, so hopefully dairies here will give it a try.
Yep, usually that‘s called ESL (extended shelf life) method which I think has come about only 10-15 years ago. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704146/
Edit: In fact it was developed in 1996 but replaced much of pasteurized milk between 2005 and 2008 in Europe. Maybe it was a little bit later in the US? https://me-trading.de/what-is-esl-milk-a-comprehensive-guide...
Edit: In fact it was developed in 1996 but replaced much of pasteurized milk between 2005 and 2008 in Europe. Maybe it was a little bit later in the US? https://me-trading.de/what-is-esl-milk-a-comprehensive-guide...
ESL is a whole different beast than pasteurization. It comes in two major versions: Microfiltration or a heating akin to UHT but shorter and at a lower temperature (127 °C vs 150 °C). Microfiltration won't change the taste, heating will. Microfiltration may be combined with pasteurization (heating to around 72 °C) to inactivate enzymes which may affect shelf life.
Pasteurized milk will keep for 5 to 7 days, while ESL milk can keep for 12 to 21 days in the unopened container.
Pasteurized milk will keep for 5 to 7 days, while ESL milk can keep for 12 to 21 days in the unopened container.
I think that’s something different from what I’m describing, since it’s higher temperature than the HTST that’s typical in North America. UHT milk never became very popular in North America, so I’m not to what extent ESL has been introduced.
I think it breaks down like this:
* Vat-pasteurized (63°C/30min)
* HTST (71°C/15sec)
* ESL (123°C/5sec)
* UHT (135°C/2sec)
I think it breaks down like this:
* Vat-pasteurized (63°C/30min)
* HTST (71°C/15sec)
* ESL (123°C/5sec)
* UHT (135°C/2sec)
I've never seen this link between 'organic' and UHT before. I'd have to check but I think any 'organic' milk is just treated the same as normal milk, and there's a separate non-refrigerated section for UHT milk (which keeps for months without refrigeration).
Me neither, I was very confused by this article. Where I live UHT is almost thought of as a “real-milk-surrogate” and it’s used e.g. by people going camping (because no fridge is needed). Organic on the other hand is considered higher quality. Maybe in other markets it’s different.
That's why UHT is moved back into the fridge section -- to overcome the marketing bias that shelf stable milk is not "real".
Yes, I see what you mean! How about milk that is organic and UHT at the same time? It seems like they are marketing to two very different consumer segments. I've never seen organic UHT milk here in Australia. Is it common elsewhere?
PS I'm not saying that UHT is necessarily lower quality, I'm talking exclusively about average consumer's perception.
PS I'm not saying that UHT is necessarily lower quality, I'm talking exclusively about average consumer's perception.
In the US I've never seen it in a non-refrigerated section, so I bet they just refrigerate the UHT milk even if it isn't needed to keep it all in one place and not freak people out.
My favorite is that you can find the same almond milk both in both the refrigerated and normal sections of the same store sometimes. Once food safety becomes ritual, it’s hard to shake.
But the same is true for soda or tea.
Sometimes I just want almond milk to be cold right now. And also, the refrigerated milk section tends to be much easier to find than whatever place the store decides to put non refrigerated milks.
Sometimes I just want almond milk to be cold right now. And also, the refrigerated milk section tends to be much easier to find than whatever place the store decides to put non refrigerated milks.
I think that's because they want to place the product in both the health food and dairy sections. I don't think it's from any desire to refrigerate it.
I’d consider it’s not about the safety ritual, but rather that both consumers and producers expect the almond milk to be found close to the milk.
Consumers because they think of it as milk, and thus it should in the same section. Producers because they want that association.
Consumers because they think of it as milk, and thus it should in the same section. Producers because they want that association.
I've seen this milk for years in the US Midwest, usually displayed not refrigerated: https://horizon.com/organic-dairy-products/organic-milk/shel...
You're totally right! I haven't seen those since I was a kid and forgot them.
From what I understand, Ultra-Pasteurized != UHT. It seems to come down to the hermetically-sealed containers, or something
> Though Ultra-Pasteurized milk is processed to be free of spoilage and harmful bacteria, it is not considered sterile because it is not hermetically sealed (i.e. canned), thus, it requires refrigeration. ... 30-90 days ... until opened
My ordinary American supermarket carries a ton of carton organic milk (refrigerated), and I think most of it is U-P.
[1] https://foodsafety.foodscience.cornell.edu/sites/foodsafety....
> Though Ultra-Pasteurized milk is processed to be free of spoilage and harmful bacteria, it is not considered sterile because it is not hermetically sealed (i.e. canned), thus, it requires refrigeration. ... 30-90 days ... until opened
My ordinary American supermarket carries a ton of carton organic milk (refrigerated), and I think most of it is U-P.
[1] https://foodsafety.foodscience.cornell.edu/sites/foodsafety....
The thing to keep in mind is that "organic" refers to the production of milk - how animals are grown, what they are fed, whether they are allowed to roam freely etc.
The rest, whether the milk is raw, pasteurised, UHT, or whatever, that's not to do with production anymore, but distribution and storage. So it's perfectly possible for milk to be both produced organically (so "organic") and also Ultra-Heat Treated (so UHT).
The rest, whether the milk is raw, pasteurised, UHT, or whatever, that's not to do with production anymore, but distribution and storage. So it's perfectly possible for milk to be both produced organically (so "organic") and also Ultra-Heat Treated (so UHT).
As a kid I used to sneak UHT (long-lasting) milk in the shopping cart because the sweeter taste went well with cereals. It always seemed like a magic trick by Nature, along with roasted bread (the Maillard reaction) or simply leaving a pear to become ripe, soft and sweet.
Is this more common in less urban places? I don't know that I've seen UHT organic milk in the Seattle area and pretty much only see UHT Milk sold for shelf stability without refrigeration or for packing in kids lunches.
Most organic milk is UHT, but not shelf stable since it’s not aseptically packaged.
Without aseptic packaging UHT milk lasts for 90-120 days refrigerated.
Without aseptic packaging UHT milk lasts for 90-120 days refrigerated.
Every Costco I've been to has UHT milk sold in a box with 3 half gallon cartons.
As a European I grew up on UHT milk, and boy, I didn't like it a bit, but my mom only went shopping once a week, so it was either that or no milk at all. I still find it repulsive and a bit tasteless, the worst offenders being the half skimmed and low fat varieties.
As a Canadian, I was amazed to see unrefrigerated milk in boxes on my first trip to Europe. I agree about the taste.
That being said, it is easier to get raw milk in Europe, so I envy that.
That being said, it is easier to get raw milk in Europe, so I envy that.
Summary: it doesn't. UHT milk does, and some organic milk is UHT.
I have experienced reverse. Few times when I bought organic milk, it started to smell foul after couple days. Even though the printed expiry date was far away in the future
Same with me, especially the Horizon brand.
I wonder if irradiating by say 10 MeV electron beam could work for raw milk. Perhaps with the right dose, the taste shouldn't be altered significantly, yet the bacteria should be gone
Food irradiation is a bit expensive compared to ultra pasteurization. I'm not aware of any brands of milk that use it. However it doesn't affect taste or nutrition of food as far as I can tell. It would probably work pretty well, although it would be pretty expensive for something as cheap and safe as milk.
Interesting! I could swear organic milk in a carton lasts at least twice as long as regular milk in a jug.
It does say ultra-pasteurized (the carton), so I guess I've been drinking basically-UHT organic milk along with regular. The organic tastes way better to me, so maybe I don't mind the UHT flavor (or lack thereof). The milk I buy is all refrigerated fwiw, I haven't tried room temperature UHT to compare taste.
It does say ultra-pasteurized (the carton), so I guess I've been drinking basically-UHT organic milk along with regular. The organic tastes way better to me, so maybe I don't mind the UHT flavor (or lack thereof). The milk I buy is all refrigerated fwiw, I haven't tried room temperature UHT to compare taste.
I notice milk frozen immediately after purchase and then weeks later thawed doesn't last very long, a few days a most, before it curdles (US Costco organic 1%).
We also get organic UHT chocolate milk in small boxes which lasts a few months. UHT organic heavy cream in small boxes last some months as well.
We also get organic UHT chocolate milk in small boxes which lasts a few months. UHT organic heavy cream in small boxes last some months as well.
btw, there are many different method beside pastorization and UHT.
beside an "sterilized" milk (obtained with 20 mins at 116-120 °C) and others intermedied heat treatments there is also the microfiltration: the milk pass through a microscopic membrane, that "filter out" the patogenic elements
I've noticed UHT milk has an unpleasant smell after a few days.
Once you open it you have to start refrigerating immediately or it will curdle. Open air is full of bacteria and people have a cloud of the bugs surrounding them. They come off of skin and your breath and clothes. An opened container will be infected almost instantly.
FWIW We buy raw non-pasteurized, non-homogenized cow milk from the neighboring farm (the cows are grass fed). We go there once a week with our bottles, get 5-7 liters worth (costs only 1€/l, cheaper than in the grocery store). It keeps without problem for up to 8-9 days. You do need a good fridge though.
I could go on and on about the qualities of raw milk, the richness of flavor, the high percentage of cream (~6.5% in the case of our milk), beneficial bacteria and mineral content, but the point is that it keeps well enough for us to be able to buy it once a week.
I could go on and on about the qualities of raw milk, the richness of flavor, the high percentage of cream (~6.5% in the case of our milk), beneficial bacteria and mineral content, but the point is that it keeps well enough for us to be able to buy it once a week.
And you accept the risks of bacteria from raw milk?
FWIW via the wiki article on it there is weak to no evidence of benefits but strong evidence of danger. if taste is the reason go ahead and risk your health I've no problem. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/raw-milk-debate/
Sorry unsure if I am allowed to edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk
Would you mind explaining the qualities? I don't see how pasteurization or homogenization would change the percentage of cream or mineral content. I've never tasted it so I can't speak to flavor, and you're right about beneficial bacteria but I don't know if that outweighs the chances of harmful bacteria.
It is all for taste. Heating leads to changes in the proteins and sugars (caramelization / maillard reaction) affecting the taste. The more heat and the longer the time it is applied, the more pronounced this change is.
Homogenization has a slight impact on mouth feel and taste, usually described as an improvement.
Homogenization has a slight impact on mouth feel and taste, usually described as an improvement.
The amount of cream in pasteurized milk is tightly controlled; the milk is literally run through a centrifuge and the skim milk separated from the cream, then cream is re-added to a certain percentage. With raw milk, this processing doesn't occur, allowing for cream content as high as it comes straight from the cow.
That's not what pasteurized means. You are describing a different process.
And anyway the centrifuge process also allows for cream content higher than what the cow produces.
And anyway the centrifuge process also allows for cream content higher than what the cow produces.
I know what pasteurized means. But any milk that is pasteurized is about 100% likely to go through this other process also.
You really have to get it directly from cow to table to get the true flavor of milk.
You really have to get it directly from cow to table to get the true flavor of milk.
Raw milk is dangerous, perhaps if you are fortunate enough to source it directly from a cow and refrigerate it quickly enough you can avoid the deadly bacteria building up, But honestly I wouldn't be risking it if I where you.
Regardless for the rest of us it's not an option and never will be.
Regardless for the rest of us it's not an option and never will be.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm guessing that the risk depends on how the cows are kept. Industrialization of milk farming introduced high concentration of cows in cramped spaces, which led to disease/bacteria spread. I'm guessing this, because we kept milk cows for thousands of years and didn't use pasteurization. If that's true, and you know that your milk cow is kept in good conditions, you should feel comfortable drinking its milk raw.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
It’s rather the other way round. Pasteurization was invented at the end of the 19th century and quickly becoming widespread in the beginning of the 20th century (1910 in NY) when it was no longer feasible to have cows in urban centers and transportation took significant time. However, since then, the industrialization of milk production and the introduction of safety standards (cold storage, stainless steel vats to transport, mandatory testing,...) made processing raw milk safer, rather than riskier. Major TBC outbreaks were linked to raw milk - TBC linked to milk is basically a non-issue nowadays, even for raw milk.
Yes and no. Different nation has different laws and testing, and different methods for animal handling can increase disease risks. To take an direct example here from Sweden, if a farmers animal get tested positive for salmonella then most if not all the nearby animals are killed and possible even nearby neighboring farmers flocks just to be on the safe side. Raw milk also get tested a lot more since the risk are higher.
That said, while its true that we have kept cows for thousands of years without using pasteurization, there is a reason why the average life span is high and child mortality is low. We also used to milk the cow and then directly drink it, rather than collect it and store it for a extended period of time.
That said, while its true that we have kept cows for thousands of years without using pasteurization, there is a reason why the average life span is high and child mortality is low. We also used to milk the cow and then directly drink it, rather than collect it and store it for a extended period of time.
Milk contamination may occur in these ways:
* Animal feces coming into direct contact with the milk
* Infection of the udder (mastitis)
* Cow diseases (for example, bovine tuberculosis)
* Bacteria that live on the skin of animals
* Environment (for example, feces, dirt, and processing equipment)
* Insects, rodents, and other animal vectors
* Unsanitary conditions in milk processing plant
* Cross-contamination from dairy workers, such as contact with dirty clothing or boots
Source as linked in another comment: https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-an...
From my reading raw milk can be contaminated inside and outside the cow from such a myriad of sources and while cramped industrial farming might increase the likelihood of contamination it doesn't remotely eliminate the risks. Also note pasteurization practices originated prior to industrial farming
* Animal feces coming into direct contact with the milk
* Infection of the udder (mastitis)
* Cow diseases (for example, bovine tuberculosis)
* Bacteria that live on the skin of animals
* Environment (for example, feces, dirt, and processing equipment)
* Insects, rodents, and other animal vectors
* Unsanitary conditions in milk processing plant
* Cross-contamination from dairy workers, such as contact with dirty clothing or boots
Source as linked in another comment: https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-an...
From my reading raw milk can be contaminated inside and outside the cow from such a myriad of sources and while cramped industrial farming might increase the likelihood of contamination it doesn't remotely eliminate the risks. Also note pasteurization practices originated prior to industrial farming
Raw milk is objectively tastier, more nutritious, and keeps for longer; the dangers of foodborne illness can be greatly mitigated with proper sourcing, which will also help control the amount of pesticides and antibiotics that make their way into the milk (something you can't really do with processed milk).
There are certain gourmet cheeses that can only be made with raw milk; to make them with pasteurized milk is not only blasphemous, it yields objectively inferior product.
There are certain gourmet cheeses that can only be made with raw milk; to make them with pasteurized milk is not only blasphemous, it yields objectively inferior product.
Pasteurization mitigates a lot of microbiological risks associated with raw milk unless the utmost care is taken during its production and storage. It is still advisable that pregnant women, small children and immunocompromised persons do not consume raw milk and products made from it.
I think it's irresponsible to talk about all the great things of raw milk without mentioning that it's also dangerous.
Pasteurization isn't mandated because people like the taste. It's one of many safety regulations written in blood.
Many people have died from raw milk, and would still be dying if it was widely consumed
Pasteurization isn't mandated because people like the taste. It's one of many safety regulations written in blood.
Many people have died from raw milk, and would still be dying if it was widely consumed
The chance of you dying from raw milk from the farm next door, consumed within a few days, is minute. Since that's what GP was talking about, I don't think they're irresponsible for not mentioning dying.
Pasteurization is mandated because most people do not live next door to farms, so milk needs to travel and last more than a few days.
Pasteurization is mandated because most people do not live next door to farms, so milk needs to travel and last more than a few days.
IMO this is a classic "no true scotsman". The CDC does not say anything about distance and time making raw milk any safer https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/raw-milk-questions-an...
It kind of implies the opposite, that the bacteria don't need to multiply, they're already present.
Have you seen studies that show most outbreaks are from bacteria multiplying in the milk rather than contamination at the source? Since even raw milk is promptly cooled which greatly slows bacterial reproduction, I find it more likely that all the contamination needed to cause sickness happens during processing.
It kind of implies the opposite, that the bacteria don't need to multiply, they're already present.
Have you seen studies that show most outbreaks are from bacteria multiplying in the milk rather than contamination at the source? Since even raw milk is promptly cooled which greatly slows bacterial reproduction, I find it more likely that all the contamination needed to cause sickness happens during processing.
A throwaway declaring a rhetological fallacy - how LOL
I just don't want my identities connected. I talk too much smack about big tech on here to risk my career, sorry.
Yeah don’t be using tired debating tropes. It’s so boring to read at this stage and doesn’t sound as clever as it did 5 years ago. Stick to substance.
The concept of buying from the farmer next door doesn't only encapsulate less distance (meaning less time and fewer chances for the cold chain to be broken), but also an element of trust.
You can view the facilities, and make a judgement about the cleanliness -- as you might in a restaurant before considering the beef tartare -- and you have likely been buying from this farmer for some time.
You can view the facilities, and make a judgement about the cleanliness -- as you might in a restaurant before considering the beef tartare -- and you have likely been buying from this farmer for some time.
Ah yes, using your expert knowledge of food safety practices and cow biology to tell if you are eventually going to consume contaminated milk. It's coming out of the tap contaminated.
Food can be contaminated at any number of places along the supply chain, but I don't see how trust enters into it. It's like trusting that you won't be served a bad oyster, impossible to rule out at even the nicest, most "trustworthy" establishment.
Food can be contaminated at any number of places along the supply chain, but I don't see how trust enters into it. It's like trusting that you won't be served a bad oyster, impossible to rule out at even the nicest, most "trustworthy" establishment.
If you think that non-experts can't make a judgement about food safety that, while not being perfect, is still useful, then I don't think we will agree about much.
I think that certain kinds of risks are just risks regardless of your "judgement". If you want to drink raw milk, that's cool, but don't kid yourself that you can tell the safety by the cut of the farmer's jib.
It's just not black and white like that. You can tell a lot of useful things about the food safety of an establishment by looking at it. If the farmer's equipment is filthy, or she keeps chickens in the same room she processes the milk, I'm probably not gonna drink milk from there. If it's all spotless, and there are clearly systems and processes being followed, I feel reasonably safe (I've been drinking raw milk most of my life and never once became ill from doing so).
These kinds of risks are similar to the risks of eating beef tartare or oysters (things that I also do fairly regularly, including sometimes in developing countries!), and humans have been reasonably successfully managing these risks for a long time, meanwhile some other humans seem to massively overstate the risks for some reason.
These kinds of risks are similar to the risks of eating beef tartare or oysters (things that I also do fairly regularly, including sometimes in developing countries!), and humans have been reasonably successfully managing these risks for a long time, meanwhile some other humans seem to massively overstate the risks for some reason.
Yes, I used to do the same. Though I found my whole family is lactose intolerant and we eventually became vegan.
In Poland, many people look down on pasteurized and UHT milk (which is most of it). The city where I presently live has a vending machine(s) for raw milk, you can even bring your own bottles to save the environment.
A big benefit of raw milk is that it goes sour and is suitable for a variety of fermentation methods. This is rich in probiotics and just plain tasty. Also serves as an intermediate product for some recipes like crumpets. Here's a list of used fermentation methods by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_milk_products
Here's the default state raw milk reaches within a few days: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soured_milk
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EU and US have opposite approaches to some foods. For example in US, chicken eggs are chemically washed completely clean to fight salmonella and other bugs. Unfortunately, it washes off the protective layer they have and eggs go bad faster. So they repaint eggs with another chemical to protect them. In EU, eggs instead receive only basic washing and you frequently find traces of crap on your eggs. US in general is high on processed foods (Oreo cookies in recipes?).
Another case is hygiene. Circumcision is common in US for 'hygienic reasons'. Alternatively, you can use soap.
My point is that you can go too far with fixing nature.
A big benefit of raw milk is that it goes sour and is suitable for a variety of fermentation methods. This is rich in probiotics and just plain tasty. Also serves as an intermediate product for some recipes like crumpets. Here's a list of used fermentation methods by country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_milk_products
Here's the default state raw milk reaches within a few days: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soured_milk
----
EU and US have opposite approaches to some foods. For example in US, chicken eggs are chemically washed completely clean to fight salmonella and other bugs. Unfortunately, it washes off the protective layer they have and eggs go bad faster. So they repaint eggs with another chemical to protect them. In EU, eggs instead receive only basic washing and you frequently find traces of crap on your eggs. US in general is high on processed foods (Oreo cookies in recipes?).
Another case is hygiene. Circumcision is common in US for 'hygienic reasons'. Alternatively, you can use soap.
My point is that you can go too far with fixing nature.
I don't know. Oreo cookies in recipes and not getting salmonella both sound like perks to me.
> All "organic" means is that the farm the milk comes from does not use antibiotics to fight infections in cows..
In EU farmers must administer homeopathics to sick "organic" animals instead of antibiotics.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-homeopathy-and-norwegian-vets...
In EU farmers must administer homeopathics to sick "organic" animals instead of antibiotics.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-homeopathy-and-norwegian-vets...
Did you, um, read the link? It basically shows that this isn't the text or intent of the law.
Not sure if you are just trolling or malevolent on purpose. I did read the article and it literally says that is the intent and text of the law.
Quote from the article:
> More detailed rules from 2008 list products that should be preferred to medicine and antibiotics "provided that their therapeutic effect is effective". These include homeopathic products, but also various vitamins and compounds of mineral origin.
Quote from the law:
> Phytotherapeutic and homeopathic products, trace elements and products listed in [...] shall be used in preference to chemically-synthesised allopathic veterinary treatment or antibiotics, provided that their therapeutic effect is effective for the species of animal.
Article 24, Section 1: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
Let me borrow a quote from Tim Minchin:
"By definition, Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."
So the EU law actually says that ignorant quackery (herbal medicine) and fraudulent for-profit quackery (homeopathy) shall be preferred to any natural or synthetic remedy that has been proved to be effective (allopathic = evidence based medicine).
Quote from the article:
> More detailed rules from 2008 list products that should be preferred to medicine and antibiotics "provided that their therapeutic effect is effective". These include homeopathic products, but also various vitamins and compounds of mineral origin.
Quote from the law:
> Phytotherapeutic and homeopathic products, trace elements and products listed in [...] shall be used in preference to chemically-synthesised allopathic veterinary treatment or antibiotics, provided that their therapeutic effect is effective for the species of animal.
Article 24, Section 1: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
Let me borrow a quote from Tim Minchin:
"By definition, Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call Alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine."
So the EU law actually says that ignorant quackery (herbal medicine) and fraudulent for-profit quackery (homeopathy) shall be preferred to any natural or synthetic remedy that has been proved to be effective (allopathic = evidence based medicine).
EU organic milk comes from cows who are only allowed to be administered antibiotics if they get sick. Those cows are removed from the herd when sick, but are allowed to re-enter the organic herd after they are taken off the antibiotics.
I'm really surprised this isn't the standard everywhere. In NZ it's quite similar and very strict; if any trace of antibiotic is detected in a batch of milk it is rejected, and the offending farmer must pay for it (easily $1,000s, probably much more).
Aside from the resistance issue, one reason for this is quite simple; antibiotics in the milk mean you can't make cheese with it. If a cow needs antibiotics, they are separated from the herd for a few days until they are clear (and also can't be slaughtered for meat for a longer period of time).
Aside from the resistance issue, one reason for this is quite simple; antibiotics in the milk mean you can't make cheese with it. If a cow needs antibiotics, they are separated from the herd for a few days until they are clear (and also can't be slaughtered for meat for a longer period of time).
Unfortunately the us of antibiotics in farming in EU is still widespread - will be curbed in 2022. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/25/european-par...
But that does not mean the law should promote or enable quackery. See my other comment.
But that does not mean the law should promote or enable quackery. See my other comment.
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> A lot of Americans find [UHT] offensive ... Europeans, however, don’t seem to mind.
Here in the UK, this statement is not true at all. UHT milk is certainly available in the supermarkets (not in the chilled section) but the vast majority of milk sold is fresh. I guess this is the risk of generalising a whole continent of people in such a short statement. (Probably the article's claims about Americans don't generalise to every part of that either.)
The most ridiculous thing about this statement is that it is claiming Europeans care less about UHT. Yet it's evident that at least some Americans don't care that much because they needed this article to be written to even notice that some of their milk was UHT. I'm confident that if all organic milk in UK was UHT then its consumers would be furious, without needing it to be pointed out to them.
I suspect part of British preference for fresh milk is due to the tradition of milkmen delivering fresh milk every morning, now almost entirely stopped but still in living memory. I'm reminded of a quote from the excellent British/Irish comedy Father Ted, where Father Dougal becomes a milkman: "You better get going, milk gets sour you know. Unless it's UHT milk, but there's no demand for that because it's shite".