A comparison of city building games(twitter.com)
twitter.com
A comparison of city building games
https://twitter.com/alfred_twu/status/1345955063353597954
128 comments
The city of Helsinki owns about 17% of the residential building stock, not the majority. (https://www.asuminenhelsingissa.fi/fi/content/kaupungin-omis... - in Finnish)
I apologize. I think I was remembering this passage incorrectly.
"And there, the Finnish capital is fortunate. Helsinki owns 60,000 social housing units; one in seven residents live in city-owned housing. It also owns 70% of the land within the city limits, runs its own construction company, and has a current target of building 7,000 more new homes – of all categories – a year"
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle...
70% of land is not 70% of housing.
"And there, the Finnish capital is fortunate. Helsinki owns 60,000 social housing units; one in seven residents live in city-owned housing. It also owns 70% of the land within the city limits, runs its own construction company, and has a current target of building 7,000 more new homes – of all categories – a year"
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/03/its-a-miracle...
70% of land is not 70% of housing.
You might like the game City State. The actual citybuilding part of the game is pretty inconsequential, but there are a ton of policy choices that play out in interesting ways.
Modern neoliberal policies match up entirely with the ones you criticize Sim City for punishing. Go to old.reddit.com/r/neoliberal and you'll see countless posts advocating for mixed use zoning, public transit, bike lanes, etc.
edit: you might also enjoy Sim City 4 with the network addon mod installed. It allows you to customize those exact parameters, and shift the incidence of public transportation usage as well as preference for travel time and other things.
edit: you might also enjoy Sim City 4 with the network addon mod installed. It allows you to customize those exact parameters, and shift the incidence of public transportation usage as well as preference for travel time and other things.
This reminds me of an old meme that was a fake screenshot of SimCity 4, where the player is confronted with a dozen popups asking them to make a ton of un-fun decisions about things like building permits and policy minutia
> The game rewarded you if you tried to make a California town.
Probably because it was developed in Walnut Creek, CA. I used to work nearby. I was always curious why they didn't include the BART train that runs directly next to Cal Plaza (up at like the 5th floor) as the track's curve there makes BART deafeningly loud. The whole Diablo Valley is pretty Levittown-y, possibly causing the lack of zonal diversity in the game.
https://www.wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=California_...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/California+Plaza-Walnut+Cr...
Probably because it was developed in Walnut Creek, CA. I used to work nearby. I was always curious why they didn't include the BART train that runs directly next to Cal Plaza (up at like the 5th floor) as the track's curve there makes BART deafeningly loud. The whole Diablo Valley is pretty Levittown-y, possibly causing the lack of zonal diversity in the game.
https://www.wiki.sc4devotion.com/index.php?title=California_...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/California+Plaza-Walnut+Cr...
> everything I don't like is neoliberal
Indeed, like the assumption that more police leads to more riots.
You may like NewCity. It's in a rough alpha state, but the whole goal of the game is to get your first skyscraper, which is actually kinda hard.
I've played NewCity for a couple of hours, and it surprised me how they modeled the US police system under neoliberalism. If your city is out of money, you can choose to collect an enormous amount of fines and fees using the police to fund your city. The tooltip for that slider said this will increase citizen dissatisfaction with the police and lead to unrest, although I haven't really tested it to the max yet.
Overall, it's more intended to be a dystopian rather than a utopian city builder, from the brutalist art style to the little game mechanics which imply about city design.
Overall, it's more intended to be a dystopian rather than a utopian city builder, from the brutalist art style to the little game mechanics which imply about city design.
make this game. I would love to learn more about how real cities work by playing a simulation game. That's how I prefer to learn most things
The problems/biases of the game you have listed seem to be more of being "American" than "neoliberal" though, although I get what you want to say.
Skylines is far more flexible than the author gives it credit for. At this point it’s more of a platform for community content than a game, it would be very common to see almost no vanilla resources used (maybe besides roads) in a build. The vanilla assets are often both ugly and poorly optimized, something from Steam can look more realistic while also having fewer triangles! See the “low poly trees” collection for an example.
It’s also very common for the player to use place every building manually, contrary to to the author’s table. If you check out /r/CitiesSkylines or YouTube, anything that looks really good is likely done this way.
The game also doesn’t force you to prefer transit vs. cars, it’s very flexible and you can build an Asian, European, or American (NYC or “sprawl”) styles easily. YouTube examples I can think of:
- Nydal - European – Marble Mountain – American (California) – Kobyashi Island – Japanese
It’s also very common for the player to use place every building manually, contrary to to the author’s table. If you check out /r/CitiesSkylines or YouTube, anything that looks really good is likely done this way.
The game also doesn’t force you to prefer transit vs. cars, it’s very flexible and you can build an Asian, European, or American (NYC or “sprawl”) styles easily. YouTube examples I can think of:
- Nydal - European – Marble Mountain – American (California) – Kobyashi Island – Japanese
My only criticism of Skylines is that it’s not a game, it’s just an art board for painting cities that move. There aren’t enough meaningful challenges to building your city, the reward for playing comes from making something aesthetically appealing.
> the reward for playing comes from making something aesthetically appealing
More like "The reward comes from playing with your own objectives and succeeding at them" which is one of the hallmarks of sandbox games, not just Cities: Skylines in particular.
I've played Cities: Skylines quite a bit, the genre is my favorite one. While I agree the game doesn't force you into completing arbitrary objectives, I've found it quite challenging myself, but that's also because I setup my own objectives to be challenging.
More like "The reward comes from playing with your own objectives and succeeding at them" which is one of the hallmarks of sandbox games, not just Cities: Skylines in particular.
I've played Cities: Skylines quite a bit, the genre is my favorite one. While I agree the game doesn't force you into completing arbitrary objectives, I've found it quite challenging myself, but that's also because I setup my own objectives to be challenging.
Indeed, if you DO actually try to "play" and build a functioning city, the inability to handle traffic in any way basically stops you dead at small town size
Someone needs to know Lane Mathematics and proper round-a-bout setup :)
https://youtube.com/c/BiffaPlaysIndie/search?query=lane+math...
bish bash bosh sips tea hugo there, and hugo there
bish bash bosh sips tea hugo there, and hugo there
Designing your city in a way that allows traffic to flow (and takes advantage of traffic alternatives such as the myriad of public transit options you can design and build) is one of those "meaningful challenges" that you're supposed to play through. That's kind of the point.
City Skylines is a one-dimensional "game", in that all problems revolve around traffic.
There's NOTHING wrong with that!! Traffic simulation is incredibly hard, and its very fun to resolve that issue (or "attempt" to resolve the issue). To truly solve traffic problems requires you to understand how and why all the cars are moving the way they do.
The main issue IMO with City Skylines, is that once you "solve" the traffic problem (which is almost always a combination of Highway -> 3-way Artery road with few intersections -> "cul-de-sac" style distribution of cars to their final endpoints + a few mass-transit options), there's nothing else to the game. All problems start, and end, with traffic management.
As such, if you're already a "traffic expert" (due to playing games like Factorio or OpenTTD beforehand), you can quickly build an optimal City Skylines setup and then have not much else to do.
SimCity was truly a game with multiple dimensions. Skylines is mostly a traffic simulatior (a good one, but still... "just" a traffic simulator).
There's NOTHING wrong with that!! Traffic simulation is incredibly hard, and its very fun to resolve that issue (or "attempt" to resolve the issue). To truly solve traffic problems requires you to understand how and why all the cars are moving the way they do.
The main issue IMO with City Skylines, is that once you "solve" the traffic problem (which is almost always a combination of Highway -> 3-way Artery road with few intersections -> "cul-de-sac" style distribution of cars to their final endpoints + a few mass-transit options), there's nothing else to the game. All problems start, and end, with traffic management.
As such, if you're already a "traffic expert" (due to playing games like Factorio or OpenTTD beforehand), you can quickly build an optimal City Skylines setup and then have not much else to do.
SimCity was truly a game with multiple dimensions. Skylines is mostly a traffic simulatior (a good one, but still... "just" a traffic simulator).
> you can quickly build an optimal City Skylines setup and then have not much else to do
You can definitely get to an optimal state then stop, but you can also keep growing. As the city grows, it requires refactoring roads and public transit to keep things going.
I recently got the Industries add-on, and found that also adds an interesting dimension: as you add factories, they require more of certain types of raw materials and I find myself wishing I had made the farming zone bigger, for example, debating if I should raze this nearby 5-star neighborhood, reroute a well-flowing multi-lane highway, or start a second zone somewhere else.
I kind of like I can get it to an equilibrium and stop, while not feeling like I'm leaving it unfinished. I tend to play for a couple weeks then take a break for a few months.
You can definitely get to an optimal state then stop, but you can also keep growing. As the city grows, it requires refactoring roads and public transit to keep things going.
I recently got the Industries add-on, and found that also adds an interesting dimension: as you add factories, they require more of certain types of raw materials and I find myself wishing I had made the farming zone bigger, for example, debating if I should raze this nearby 5-star neighborhood, reroute a well-flowing multi-lane highway, or start a second zone somewhere else.
I kind of like I can get it to an equilibrium and stop, while not feeling like I'm leaving it unfinished. I tend to play for a couple weeks then take a break for a few months.
> debating if I should raze this nearby 5-star neighborhood,
In real life, could a city do this (outside of forcing people out of their homes with military power)? Are there checks and limits on how much eminent domain can do in terms of claiming already-owned land?
In real life, could a city do this (outside of forcing people out of their homes with military power)? Are there checks and limits on how much eminent domain can do in terms of claiming already-owned land?
I'm not sure about the city taking your house, but certainly they can approve rezoning areas, and demolition and construction permits. If a developer gets approval and can purchase every house, there's not much difference (though at least owners are compensated, hopefully more than fairly).
Once the vast majority of your neighborhood signs on, you don't really have much choice. You can hold out for a better offer, but you might also have them literally just build around you [1].
[1] https://www.boredpanda.com/stubborn-home-owners-refuse-to-se...
Once the vast majority of your neighborhood signs on, you don't really have much choice. You can hold out for a better offer, but you might also have them literally just build around you [1].
[1] https://www.boredpanda.com/stubborn-home-owners-refuse-to-se...
> SimCity was truly a game with multiple dimensions.
I keep hearing this, but what other dimensions does it have?
I remember playing SimCity in highschool and can't really remember anything it has that City Skylines does not. That is likely due to multi-decade-old memories and not that it actually lacks those dimensions.
I keep hearing this, but what other dimensions does it have?
I remember playing SimCity in highschool and can't really remember anything it has that City Skylines does not. That is likely due to multi-decade-old memories and not that it actually lacks those dimensions.
I played SimCity 2000 off of GOG a few months ago (around when I was also playing City Skylines). A few things:
1. SimCity2000 has much higher relative costs for infrastructure. Roads, Police, Firefighters, etc. etc. cost lots of recurring money, to the point where a typical player even on $20,000 "Easy" mode will probably fail the first few times they play. I've never run out of money on City Skylines, literally never. But even with all my experience on SimCity 2000, I can "fail to bootstrap" on medium ($10,000) or hard (Bonds/Debt) mode. (Especially if an unlucky early game fire disaster happens). In contrast, the recurring costs in Skylines is so puny that I forget about that aspect entirely.
2. Disasters in Sim City 2000 force you to rebuild occasionally. Or at least, carefully consider the placement of your items. (Ex: low-lands may flood, getting destroyed. Airplanes may crash, causing fires near airports). Despite being a pain in the ass, the chaos of disasters grossly changes the feel.
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Ultimately, Skylines has more similarities to Rollercoaster Tycoon and/or Tropico than SimCity. Skylines simulates every individual sim (with HEAVY emphasis on traffic). The emergent behavior of each individual sim following simple rules is a particular style of gameplay.
However, SimCity was more of a abstract economic simulator, where larger decisions had more pronounced effects. Opening commercial roads to neighbors would create trade between cities. Airports and/or seaports need to be managed with your neighbors. This style of gameplay: a "big picture" city simulator, ultimately plays extremely differently than City Skylines.
In City Skylines: building an airport or seaport causes a traffic spike that you need to manage. In SimCity, building an airport or seaport causes an increase in commercial demand and/or industrial demand. Its just fundamentally different.
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Really: its just that one thing: Skylines's infrastructure costs are laughably low. There's no worry about ever running out of money... no matter what you build, you're always flush with cash.
In SimCity, you'd worry whether or not you've saved up enough cash to bootstrap a new section of your city. In Skylines, you just build it, and if it doesn't work (unforeseen traffic issues or whatnot), delete it and build it again.
1. SimCity2000 has much higher relative costs for infrastructure. Roads, Police, Firefighters, etc. etc. cost lots of recurring money, to the point where a typical player even on $20,000 "Easy" mode will probably fail the first few times they play. I've never run out of money on City Skylines, literally never. But even with all my experience on SimCity 2000, I can "fail to bootstrap" on medium ($10,000) or hard (Bonds/Debt) mode. (Especially if an unlucky early game fire disaster happens). In contrast, the recurring costs in Skylines is so puny that I forget about that aspect entirely.
2. Disasters in Sim City 2000 force you to rebuild occasionally. Or at least, carefully consider the placement of your items. (Ex: low-lands may flood, getting destroyed. Airplanes may crash, causing fires near airports). Despite being a pain in the ass, the chaos of disasters grossly changes the feel.
------------
Ultimately, Skylines has more similarities to Rollercoaster Tycoon and/or Tropico than SimCity. Skylines simulates every individual sim (with HEAVY emphasis on traffic). The emergent behavior of each individual sim following simple rules is a particular style of gameplay.
However, SimCity was more of a abstract economic simulator, where larger decisions had more pronounced effects. Opening commercial roads to neighbors would create trade between cities. Airports and/or seaports need to be managed with your neighbors. This style of gameplay: a "big picture" city simulator, ultimately plays extremely differently than City Skylines.
In City Skylines: building an airport or seaport causes a traffic spike that you need to manage. In SimCity, building an airport or seaport causes an increase in commercial demand and/or industrial demand. Its just fundamentally different.
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Really: its just that one thing: Skylines's infrastructure costs are laughably low. There's no worry about ever running out of money... no matter what you build, you're always flush with cash.
In SimCity, you'd worry whether or not you've saved up enough cash to bootstrap a new section of your city. In Skylines, you just build it, and if it doesn't work (unforeseen traffic issues or whatnot), delete it and build it again.
SimCity 4, in addition to the density axis, had wealth. You could have high density low income districts and low density high income districts and all sorts of things. The different wealth classes demanded different services and jobs, had different commuting requirements, etc. And districts desirability changed over time as conditions changed, so you could have a formerly high-wealth condo become a low-wealth slum; the building would be the same but have a dilapidated appearance, etc.
As much as I like Cities Skylines, it kind of assumes that everyone can aspire to live in a nice high rise condo with solar panels on the roof.
As much as I like Cities Skylines, it kind of assumes that everyone can aspire to live in a nice high rise condo with solar panels on the roof.
A road layout using concentric circles with spokes works too.
I appreciate the author mentioning 'Soviet Republic'; as a lover of city builders, it is my current addiction and I can recommend it as a great game if you are interested in both city building and logistics management.
The thread glosses over the "player builds everything" feature, but that's not the half of it: everything in your nation is open for your consideration: the buildings you construct; the food your people eat; the transport vehicles and fuel needed to run them - you can choose to set up supply chains all the way from extraction, to refinement, to manufacturing and export - or import the things (and manpower) you don't care about, at a cost.
Think "Rise of Industry" or OpenTTD meets Tropico, but you also need to source the resources and manpower to build your buildings, roads, and railways.
I also find the mod selection (namely a wide variety of buildings) to be quite an asset to the game
The thread glosses over the "player builds everything" feature, but that's not the half of it: everything in your nation is open for your consideration: the buildings you construct; the food your people eat; the transport vehicles and fuel needed to run them - you can choose to set up supply chains all the way from extraction, to refinement, to manufacturing and export - or import the things (and manpower) you don't care about, at a cost.
Think "Rise of Industry" or OpenTTD meets Tropico, but you also need to source the resources and manpower to build your buildings, roads, and railways.
I also find the mod selection (namely a wide variety of buildings) to be quite an asset to the game
The import feature in Soviet Republic is especially cool to me.
If you mine/process/store all the goods needed to produce a building in your republic warehouses, you can build anything essentially for free. You assign trucks to deliver the goods and use workers to build it.
The only thing missing from that game for me, is a more informative and intuitive UI. It can be hard to understand how all the parts fit together and get a good overview of your republic.
If you mine/process/store all the goods needed to produce a building in your republic warehouses, you can build anything essentially for free. You assign trucks to deliver the goods and use workers to build it.
The only thing missing from that game for me, is a more informative and intuitive UI. It can be hard to understand how all the parts fit together and get a good overview of your republic.
The wall I hit with this game was that once I figured out how to get the country self-sustaining enough to mine and refine uranium for export, it effectively gave unlimited money, and less point in figuring out all the other industries.
> mine and refine uranium for export
Refining uranium gives some pretty tangible benefits in the real world too. Seems fair.
Refining uranium gives some pretty tangible benefits in the real world too. Seems fair.
I want to see a remaster, or some sort of faithful remake of SimCity 4. Something about its crisp graphics and trimetric camera projection feels irreplaceable. I still frequently listen to the soundtrack while I work too. God I love that game.
If EA released the sources to it or created a “Definitive Edition” I could die happy.
If EA released the sources to it or created a “Definitive Edition” I could die happy.
I tried to convince EA to let me do that. Didn't work.
EA really, REALLY doesn't want to update SC4, they don't want to fix its easily fixable bugs, and don't want to share the source either, despite the most important parts of it being Open Sourced recently (EASTL is notable)
SC4 to start of, was never finished, while modding the game and then trying to fix its bugs, I found out a ton of features people want, DO exist, but are partially implemented, for example the game even calculate the wind effects on the ground, but does nothing with the result of the calculation.
It also has a advanced modding system using dlls, theoretically you can make dlls using the game APIs and greatly modify its behaviour but the API documentation is heavily secret, asking individual EA (ex)employees about it resulted in them telling me it is secret, and asking EA itself got my questions outright ignored (different from other requests, where they reply declining...)
And it has bugs because the devs went so cutting edge at the time, that they used everything they could of the hardware, that immediately moved from under them:
1. It uses RDTSC for its original documented purpose: count clock cycles. Meanwhile right after launch Intel decided that RDTSC was supposed to count time instead, and changing what it does, breaking some features of the game, and causing crashes, the game still crashes often because of this.
2. The game uses DirectX 7, mixing DirectDraw and Direct3D, it used all the features it could at the time, it was running really poorly in a laptop of mine, so I went to check and found out that nVidia some 2 years after the game launch decided that DX7 is so outdated that they wouldn't bother supporting it at all, and whenever a game asked questions to the videocard using DX7 APIs, it would lie, so SC4 on my nVidia based laptop would get a lot of lies as answers to queries to the video card capabilities, and attempt to do poorly supported things, resulting in severe graphical artifacts and performance issues.
To me the treatment of SC4 by EA just serves to show that EA is a company that doesn't care for quality that much.
EA really, REALLY doesn't want to update SC4, they don't want to fix its easily fixable bugs, and don't want to share the source either, despite the most important parts of it being Open Sourced recently (EASTL is notable)
SC4 to start of, was never finished, while modding the game and then trying to fix its bugs, I found out a ton of features people want, DO exist, but are partially implemented, for example the game even calculate the wind effects on the ground, but does nothing with the result of the calculation.
It also has a advanced modding system using dlls, theoretically you can make dlls using the game APIs and greatly modify its behaviour but the API documentation is heavily secret, asking individual EA (ex)employees about it resulted in them telling me it is secret, and asking EA itself got my questions outright ignored (different from other requests, where they reply declining...)
And it has bugs because the devs went so cutting edge at the time, that they used everything they could of the hardware, that immediately moved from under them:
1. It uses RDTSC for its original documented purpose: count clock cycles. Meanwhile right after launch Intel decided that RDTSC was supposed to count time instead, and changing what it does, breaking some features of the game, and causing crashes, the game still crashes often because of this.
2. The game uses DirectX 7, mixing DirectDraw and Direct3D, it used all the features it could at the time, it was running really poorly in a laptop of mine, so I went to check and found out that nVidia some 2 years after the game launch decided that DX7 is so outdated that they wouldn't bother supporting it at all, and whenever a game asked questions to the videocard using DX7 APIs, it would lie, so SC4 on my nVidia based laptop would get a lot of lies as answers to queries to the video card capabilities, and attempt to do poorly supported things, resulting in severe graphical artifacts and performance issues.
To me the treatment of SC4 by EA just serves to show that EA is a company that doesn't care for quality that much.
> whenever a game asked questions to the videocard using DX7 APIs, it would lie,
This makes me wonder if Wine would run it better. Usually, Wine only "lies" if Windows itself does and if not doing so will cause things to break.
This makes me wonder if Wine would run it better. Usually, Wine only "lies" if Windows itself does and if not doing so will cause things to break.
It does.
Putting Wine DLLs on SC4 folder make it run better even on Windows. Ditto for a couple other games (for example Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura)
Putting Wine DLLs on SC4 folder make it run better even on Windows. Ditto for a couple other games (for example Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura)
Do you know if/how GOG.com copes with the different bugs in SC4?
If they haven't implemented those fixes, you may even have a better chance talking with them rather than directly with EA.
Thank you for your efforts!
Are you aware of any OpenTTD-like projects for SC4? If EA won't play ball that seems like pretty much the last option left.
There aren't any, sadly.
Closest SC4 sucessor for now is the game "New Cities" that is fundamentally different, and proprietary.
Open Source there is an early SimCity clone, but it is not a clone of SC4 specifically, and it is a lot more simple.
There were multiple attempts by multiple people on starting such projects, but all of them failed fairly early, the task is seemly just too daunting, in fact this is part of the reason why the game got released in a unfinished state, in an interview a programmer that worked on SC4 at the time said they "coded themselves into a corner", and were unsure how to fix it, EA then gave them the ultimatum of "release now or never", reimplementing SC4 itself thus seems to be too hard.
OpenTTD was much easier, in part because TTD itself was written in assembly, so when you decompile it, you are seeing the actual source for most part, there are no C++ craziness going on, no virtual tables or crazy jumps.
SC4 was written in C++ with a ton of non-standard stuff, Paul Pedriana is a mad genius, so unless you have supernatural amounts of patience and time, you won't understand a disassembly of SC4, you need the source to do anything substantial.
Closest SC4 sucessor for now is the game "New Cities" that is fundamentally different, and proprietary.
Open Source there is an early SimCity clone, but it is not a clone of SC4 specifically, and it is a lot more simple.
There were multiple attempts by multiple people on starting such projects, but all of them failed fairly early, the task is seemly just too daunting, in fact this is part of the reason why the game got released in a unfinished state, in an interview a programmer that worked on SC4 at the time said they "coded themselves into a corner", and were unsure how to fix it, EA then gave them the ultimatum of "release now or never", reimplementing SC4 itself thus seems to be too hard.
OpenTTD was much easier, in part because TTD itself was written in assembly, so when you decompile it, you are seeing the actual source for most part, there are no C++ craziness going on, no virtual tables or crazy jumps.
SC4 was written in C++ with a ton of non-standard stuff, Paul Pedriana is a mad genius, so unless you have supernatural amounts of patience and time, you won't understand a disassembly of SC4, you need the source to do anything substantial.
I'd want a lot more than a faithful remake of SC4 (although SC4 would be a great starting point) -- the SimCity games have always, to a degree, been games that follow suburban California's zoning laws, and they're really great at making sprawling California suburbs.
Just a few things I'd want to add to city games:
- Model water runoff as pollution from agricultural zones.
- Transport-in-road designs -- surface level transport takes up far, far too much land space because the game doesn't support urban infrastructure properly. In SC4, things like subway entrances and bus stops always take up a full tile, when they're typically no more than a portion of the sidewalk or a road sign (and maybe a shelter), respectively.
- Mixed-use zoning. It's probably been the single biggest wish I've had for the SimCity games. It's impossible to build a vertical downtown if you're stuck trying to mix together commercial and residential plots, when many residential buildings along avenues feature ground-level commercial (making them effectively "light" density commercial contained within "dense" residential).
Just a few things I'd want to add to city games:
- Model water runoff as pollution from agricultural zones.
- Transport-in-road designs -- surface level transport takes up far, far too much land space because the game doesn't support urban infrastructure properly. In SC4, things like subway entrances and bus stops always take up a full tile, when they're typically no more than a portion of the sidewalk or a road sign (and maybe a shelter), respectively.
- Mixed-use zoning. It's probably been the single biggest wish I've had for the SimCity games. It's impossible to build a vertical downtown if you're stuck trying to mix together commercial and residential plots, when many residential buildings along avenues feature ground-level commercial (making them effectively "light" density commercial contained within "dense" residential).
If we are assembling a city builder wishlist, then the biggest item for me would be richer concept of time. In SimCity and its ilk, time handling is really simplistic. Even huge infrastructure projects finish pretty much instantly so making dramatic changes is not that disruptive, and there is nothing to simulate the changing of eras so your cities end up having fairly monotonous texture.
What if as your city evolves it would change from old-town narrow cobbled streets and weirdly shaped buildings to early modern brickwork, then brutalist concrete monsters, and finally modern sky scrapers and suburbs, or whatever, so different neighborhoods end up feeling different based on the era they were built. And if/when you need to remodel/improve the area, you'd have to take the existing stuff more into account and plan for the potentially multi-year construction project with the construction traffic and potential street blockage etc.
What if as your city evolves it would change from old-town narrow cobbled streets and weirdly shaped buildings to early modern brickwork, then brutalist concrete monsters, and finally modern sky scrapers and suburbs, or whatever, so different neighborhoods end up feeling different based on the era they were built. And if/when you need to remodel/improve the area, you'd have to take the existing stuff more into account and plan for the potentially multi-year construction project with the construction traffic and potential street blockage etc.
SC4 has some rudimentary water pollution mechanics with agriculture being among the worst polluters. It was pretty easy to avoid just by having a separate water towers or pumps for your farms and city and make sure you didn't connect the two systems.
The Network Addon Mod (NAM) addressed most of the transportation issues I have with SC4. I remember having a mod that had road/bus and road/subway combo stations but I'm not sure if it was part of NAM or not.
Mixed use zoning would be amazing, absolutely. Without it, it makes designing Main St and walkable cities nearly impossible. This kind of medium density zoning is something that SimCity has always been bad at. Somehow I think Cities Skylines is even worse at it.
The Network Addon Mod (NAM) addressed most of the transportation issues I have with SC4. I remember having a mod that had road/bus and road/subway combo stations but I'm not sure if it was part of NAM or not.
Mixed use zoning would be amazing, absolutely. Without it, it makes designing Main St and walkable cities nearly impossible. This kind of medium density zoning is something that SimCity has always been bad at. Somehow I think Cities Skylines is even worse at it.
> SC4 has some rudimentary water pollution mechanics with agriculture being among the worst polluters. It was pretty easy to avoid just by having a separate water towers or pumps for your farms and city and make sure you didn't connect the two systems.
That's there, but it was pretty dumb -- it didn't take terrain topology into account, so you wouldn't have to worry about making sure agricultural zones didn't wash into rivers/lakes/oceans that might otherwise be used for water supply.
> The Network Addon Mod (NAM) addressed most of the transportation issues I have with SC4. I remember having a mod that had road/bus and road/subway combo stations but I'm not sure if it was part of NAM or not.
While I love modding in general, I think something so fundamental as being able to put up a "bus stop here" road sign should be included in the default game. As it exists, a bus stop or subway entrance take up as much space as a small home.
The NAM is a great mod if you're looking to get into SC4 today, but it really should be included in any new release for the knock-on compatibility benefits (you don't have to worry about another mod somehow breaking NAM).
> Mixed use zoning would be amazing, absolutely. Without it, it makes designing Main St and walkable cities nearly impossible. This kind of medium density zoning is something that SimCity has always been bad at. Somehow I think Cities Skylines is even worse at it.
Skylines is definitely worse at it. The base game is a little too bare-bones for me (generally, I like games where the simulation is a state machine where you can tweak inputs vs directly messing with it), and the transportation options are lacking even when compared to SC4. I've tried to get into it a few times, but I keep bouncing off.
That's there, but it was pretty dumb -- it didn't take terrain topology into account, so you wouldn't have to worry about making sure agricultural zones didn't wash into rivers/lakes/oceans that might otherwise be used for water supply.
> The Network Addon Mod (NAM) addressed most of the transportation issues I have with SC4. I remember having a mod that had road/bus and road/subway combo stations but I'm not sure if it was part of NAM or not.
While I love modding in general, I think something so fundamental as being able to put up a "bus stop here" road sign should be included in the default game. As it exists, a bus stop or subway entrance take up as much space as a small home.
The NAM is a great mod if you're looking to get into SC4 today, but it really should be included in any new release for the knock-on compatibility benefits (you don't have to worry about another mod somehow breaking NAM).
> Mixed use zoning would be amazing, absolutely. Without it, it makes designing Main St and walkable cities nearly impossible. This kind of medium density zoning is something that SimCity has always been bad at. Somehow I think Cities Skylines is even worse at it.
Skylines is definitely worse at it. The base game is a little too bare-bones for me (generally, I like games where the simulation is a state machine where you can tweak inputs vs directly messing with it), and the transportation options are lacking even when compared to SC4. I've tried to get into it a few times, but I keep bouncing off.
> I remember having a mod that had road/bus and road/subway combo stations but I'm not sure if it was part of NAM or not.
Road Top Mass Transit
Road Top Mass Transit
NewCity is quite fun (if rough, due to its alpha state.) The whole game revolves around desirability and density; one can choose to make a low-services sprawly city or one can choose to make a high-value dense village.
Though the mixed-use scenario there is a bit iffy (mixed-use is a separate zone that only develops in areas with sufficient density/traffic to warrant it)
Though the mixed-use scenario there is a bit iffy (mixed-use is a separate zone that only develops in areas with sufficient density/traffic to warrant it)
May be add slums too, if it does not have them. I found Cities Skylines for example, has not concept of urban squalor.
SimCity is very much a product of its time. They went with the dominate development paradigm of the late 80s and I guess they've stuck with it because the game has sold very well. Why mess with the cash cow? If there ever is another version released, maybe the features of the competition will spur the project managers of SimCity to expand into the modern era.
SimCity as I knew and loved it is completely dead. The last entry to the franchise was a mobile game released in 2014. I can't see the series being much of a cash cow for EA anymore.
> I still frequently listen to the soundtrack while I work too.
The SC4 soundtrack definitely works really well for non-distracting background music while doing work. I recall that one of the Youtube videos having the music had the comment along the lines of "I was looking for a different game [Soul Calibur 4, I think?] and found this instead... HOW IS THE MUSIC THIS GOOD?"
The SC4 soundtrack definitely works really well for non-distracting background music while doing work. I recall that one of the Youtube videos having the music had the comment along the lines of "I was looking for a different game [Soul Calibur 4, I think?] and found this instead... HOW IS THE MUSIC THIS GOOD?"
Random Simcity soundtrack trivia: apparently "Concrete Jungle" from SC3k is in a pretty unusual time signature. And the soundtrack is also pretty good.
Link: https://youtu.be/AtJbm-pKuAs
It's definitely all over the place, but it works very well.
It's definitely all over the place, but it works very well.
SimCity 2000 was my thing back when I was 10. I got SimCity 4 shortly after release, but I didn't like it because it was too complicated.
I'd rather have something like 2000 instead of 4.
I'd rather have something like 2000 instead of 4.
ThinMatrix, creator of Equilinox, is working on a city building game. Too early to tell how different it will be from SC, Skylines and the like, but it's at least interesting to see his progress: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUkRj4qoT1bsWpE_C8lZYoQ
You might enjoy NewCity on Steam
Nice thread, I always loved city building games. Here’s it is easier to read
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1345955063353597954.html
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1345955063353597954.html
It missed a really nice one with walkable cities: the Caesar series. I remember playing Caesar 2 in the 90s and I believe there are newer ones.
I spent so many hours on Pharaoh and Cleopatra growing up.
There was a game released in 2015 very similar to these style games called Lethis: Path of Progress. I never got into it, but maybe other fans of Sierra games will
https://store.steampowered.com/app/359230/Lethis__Path_of_Pr...
There was a game released in 2015 very similar to these style games called Lethis: Path of Progress. I never got into it, but maybe other fans of Sierra games will
https://store.steampowered.com/app/359230/Lethis__Path_of_Pr...
I got 22.5 hours on Lethis: Path of Progress. Its only sin in my eyes is that it makes a great impression of being a reskin of Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom (which I thought was the most refined of Sierra's old city builders) meaning it doesn't really offer anything radically new.
There are a few touches here and there, particularly the use of steam - you need to build a network of pipes to transfer steam in the places where it's needed (e.g. factories that produce automata that you need to run the service buildings that will attract a bourgeoisie who will pay the most taxes, similar to elite housing in Emperor). But in general it's a game that stays very, very close to the Sierra formula. Even down to walkers starting to get lost as you build more new buildings, leaving swaths of your city without essential services and causing them to cycle between the lowest and highest possible house quality periodically. Exactly like good old Sierra games!
Which is fine by me, I'd probably not like it as much if it was indeed radically new. Weird, huh?
That said, I would sure like to see a genuinely new take on the old formula that didn't also trample all over what made the old formula work.
There are a few touches here and there, particularly the use of steam - you need to build a network of pipes to transfer steam in the places where it's needed (e.g. factories that produce automata that you need to run the service buildings that will attract a bourgeoisie who will pay the most taxes, similar to elite housing in Emperor). But in general it's a game that stays very, very close to the Sierra formula. Even down to walkers starting to get lost as you build more new buildings, leaving swaths of your city without essential services and causing them to cycle between the lowest and highest possible house quality periodically. Exactly like good old Sierra games!
Which is fine by me, I'd probably not like it as much if it was indeed radically new. Weird, huh?
That said, I would sure like to see a genuinely new take on the old formula that didn't also trample all over what made the old formula work.
Loved both Caesar and Pharaoh, but Caesar (3 I think) was my favorite.
'Plebs are needed'
Caesar 3 was amazing!
There were also some follow-up games with Egyptian and Greek themes (called Pharaoh and Zeus) which I recall being similarly fun. And looking it up just now, there's also one I missed, called "Emperor" and set in ancient China.
I got Emperor on GoG. It's where the game design formula that started with Cesar reached its apex. It's just such a great game. And it looks really pretty too.
And as usual you learn a ton about Chinese mythology- because you gotta keep the ancestors happy... or else.
And as usual you learn a ton about Chinese mythology- because you gotta keep the ancestors happy... or else.
Tropico, in general, is always being slept on. Tropico 6 is a genre defining game in my opinion. If you're into city building games I highly recommend giving it a chance.
Started with the original Tropico when it first came out, just downloaded Tropico 4 to play over the holidays based on some feedback that 4 had less complex and more fun gameplay than 6. Any perspective on which is the best in the series?
I've put a bunch of hours into 3 4 5 and 6. I'd rank them 4 > 6 > 5 > 3. 4 is clearly the best though, everything just seems to hit the perfect balance between simple fun and complexity, and the writing and character rpg elements made me want to play with different play styles. 6 is big, but I find myself getting bored in the middle game. 3 and 5 are just worse than 4 in essentially every way. All are fun though.
It is different than all the other city building games listed, in that you place all the buildings by hand.
That being said I would not really count Transport Tycoon as a city building game because transport is literally the name of the game.
That being said I would not really count Transport Tycoon as a city building game because transport is literally the name of the game.
Agreed with Tropico - great tongue in cheek setting and feel. For whatever reason though, which I can't quite put my finger on, the gameplay in T6 just feels worse to me than T4/5, as if its been dumbed down
Check out NewCity on Steam if you want a pretty cool advanced SimCity-esque builder. Its quite advanced for early-access.
Just a warning that although it claims to support Linux, on launch I got two options:
* Run without wine (Linux)
* Launch with wine
The first one took me to a black screen. The second took me into the game but the colors were entirely wrong -- everything was red and black. So caveat emptor.
* Run without wine (Linux)
* Launch with wine
The first one took me to a black screen. The second took me into the game but the colors were entirely wrong -- everything was red and black. So caveat emptor.
It's really good! I like that the zoning is more realistic and the finances seem to make more sense (e.g. when you hit $0 cash you start borrowing automatically, rather than having to explicitly take out a loan, and also you have to pay emminent domain when you destroy someone's building). Also the regional scale is neat.
It's interesting to stack up other city builders against this as well. Airborne Kingdom, Frostpunk, Tropico, Anno 1800, etc all focus on different elements of the genre.
I'm working on a city builder as a side project, and it's fascinating how many little choices there are that totally change the space of the game.
I'm working on a city builder as a side project, and it's fascinating how many little choices there are that totally change the space of the game.
OpenTTD is a great game, especially considering it's free.
OpenTTD is indeed great, but I wouldn't categorize Transport Tycoon as a city building game, instead you build a transport company. You can have some influence on how the cities in the game develop, but they are more tricks to influence the city building AI in building a more optmized city instead of actual intended gameplay elements imho. Things like grid layouts for roads (which the AI won't destroy) or terraforming terrain around the city.
That's certainly true. I kind of like the fact that if you mess with a city too much they'll get mad at you .
Does the AI still go crazy? The last time I played (~5 years ago iirc) it still did the trick of filling all possible space in an area with loops of train tracks (which are then impossible to shift later on unless you buy them out). Still my all-time favourite game though even despite that
It wasn't very ergonomic last time I tried a few years ago but you can even play it on android
Don't you need the files from the original game to use it?
You used to, but it now has FOSS graphics/music/sound packs that you can use.
Are there any mobile versions that are good and not in app purchases / time based?
I wouldn’t mind paying for a game but not a fan of the time based, gem collecting price models. Would rather pay for the app and just play
I wouldn’t mind paying for a game but not a fan of the time based, gem collecting price models. Would rather pay for the app and just play
I would have recommended TheoTown but apparently they moved to a time based IAP model with their mobile app. The steam version is still a single time purchase and a great game for the low price.
While checking out TheoTown on the App Store I found out that there is a paid Tropico version that seems to be a full game.
While checking out TheoTown on the App Store I found out that there is a paid Tropico version that seems to be a full game.
It sucks that TheoTown has a small number of "buy with gems" buildings and offers you normal game money for watching ad videos, but otherwise it really is the closest you can get to SimCity2000 on Android, maybe even better.
Almost everything else is a shitware Farmville clone with city building aesthetics.
Almost everything else is a shitware Farmville clone with city building aesthetics.
OpenTTD has an android port but no ios port (something to do with GPL iirc)
Pocket City is okay
I've heard anecdotally that SimCity started at an attempt to model Christopher Alexander's Pattern Language. If I had a "roundtuit" I'd make something like that. I was playing with Godot engine a few months ago and it's pretty fun itself. A city-building game-building game...
SimCity is why for my first MS-DOS machine I went with a Hercules graphics card and paperwhite monitor. The added resolution and clarity seemed much more important than the color that came from CGA (EGA and VGA were far outside of my budget at the time). The game played really well on monochrome.
is there a way to read this in a compiled format complete with images an' all?
ah, awesome! thanks very much
Yeah, it's kinda crazy to me that people post.. well, posts using twitter. It's not ideal to share this type of content.
Does any of those games have some kind of 'free mode'? I'm not interested in playing but rather in a casually designing city, similarly to the Townscaper game.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1291340/Townscaper
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1291340/Townscaper
Cities Skylines has an infinite money checkbox if I recall correctly. You'll still have to properly design the city so the people move there and build but game money won't be an obstacle.
Edit: found it, it is the built-in unlimited money mod https://steamcommunity.com/app/255710/discussions/0/61170136...
Edit: found it, it is the built-in unlimited money mod https://steamcommunity.com/app/255710/discussions/0/61170136...
Thanks for the info. Epic was giving it for free recently so I own it. I will definitely try it.
Where's the Dwarf Fortress?
In the twitter thread "A comparison of colony management games", not here with the city builders, as it's not really a city builder sandbox.
I was feeling nostalgic and got a simcity 2000 book I originally had when I was younger. It came complete with the original receipt from CompUSA from 1997
Any recommendations for ones that run on ubuntu?
OpenTTD, which is a very good open-source remake of Transport Tycoon Deluxe: https://www.openttd.org/
I have 20.04 LTS and it is available as the 'openttd' package.
I have 20.04 LTS and it is available as the 'openttd' package.
Another twitter thread that should have been a blog post...
ABJECT TANGENT ALERT
You're absolutely right. I find it incredibly frustrating that network effects and game theory mean we're stuck with sub-optimal solutions to problems just because "everybody else uses it". Twitter thread long-posts are just one example.
I would love to see some proposals for legislation designed to mitigate user-base monopolies. Products should be competing on features, price, and performance; not on who happened to acquire the most users first.
Facebook, Twitter, Slack, Office, iMessages, etc. are just a few examples of products that are market leaders not because of the quality of their product, but because they happened to capture large enough user bases to spur network-based growth.
I have no idea what this legislation would actually look like (or how disastrous the unintended effects would be), but at first blush I'm imagining something along the lines of compulsory interoperability requirements. The devil is in the details of course...
You're absolutely right. I find it incredibly frustrating that network effects and game theory mean we're stuck with sub-optimal solutions to problems just because "everybody else uses it". Twitter thread long-posts are just one example.
I would love to see some proposals for legislation designed to mitigate user-base monopolies. Products should be competing on features, price, and performance; not on who happened to acquire the most users first.
Facebook, Twitter, Slack, Office, iMessages, etc. are just a few examples of products that are market leaders not because of the quality of their product, but because they happened to capture large enough user bases to spur network-based growth.
I have no idea what this legislation would actually look like (or how disastrous the unintended effects would be), but at first blush I'm imagining something along the lines of compulsory interoperability requirements. The devil is in the details of course...
I only read it /because/ it was a twitter thread. I wouldn't have clicked the link if it had been a blog post (unless I read the comments here and found a compelling reason)
To defend twitter: each tweet in the thread has to have a point, something compelling about it - and in this case, an image with each. The limitations of twitter force the author to write concisely (as opposed to blogs, where paragraphs can be as rambling and long-winded as the author pleases). The medium also allows persons to reply to any individual tweet - performing a similar role as threaded comments on a site like HN, but more focused. Twitter is an ideal format for short-to-medium length content like this.
To defend twitter: each tweet in the thread has to have a point, something compelling about it - and in this case, an image with each. The limitations of twitter force the author to write concisely (as opposed to blogs, where paragraphs can be as rambling and long-winded as the author pleases). The medium also allows persons to reply to any individual tweet - performing a similar role as threaded comments on a site like HN, but more focused. Twitter is an ideal format for short-to-medium length content like this.
> I only read it /because/ it was a twitter thread
> Twitter is an ideal format for short-to-medium length content like this.
So you do enjoy having text broken down in small pieces inside an interface that's obviously made for short messages, with ads on the side, and replies right in the middle of the main body of the text?
All right. I guess we have different standards of readability.
> Twitter is an ideal format for short-to-medium length content like this.
So you do enjoy having text broken down in small pieces inside an interface that's obviously made for short messages, with ads on the side, and replies right in the middle of the main body of the text?
All right. I guess we have different standards of readability.
> So you do enjoy having text broken down in small pieces inside an interface that's obviously made for short messages
I do enjoy having text broken down into small, coherent pieces - whether it be a tweet or a paragraph. Twitter enforces it, blog platforms do not. While neither twitter nor blog platforms can enforce writing quality, length limits at least prevent the most egregious run-on sentences.
> with ads on the side,
Twitter doesnt have ads for me on any device - app or browser, computer or phone. Blogs generally have ads (that circumvent my blocker) or empty white space (where ads had been) on every device. Twitter has centred text on my laptop (comparable to most blog platforms), or the text fills my full screen width on my phone (better than most blog platforms).
> and replies right in the middle of the main body of the text?
I don't see replies in the main body of the text. I can click on any given tweet to see the various replies, but otherwise the author's tweets remain in an unbroken chain.
I do enjoy having text broken down into small, coherent pieces - whether it be a tweet or a paragraph. Twitter enforces it, blog platforms do not. While neither twitter nor blog platforms can enforce writing quality, length limits at least prevent the most egregious run-on sentences.
> with ads on the side,
Twitter doesnt have ads for me on any device - app or browser, computer or phone. Blogs generally have ads (that circumvent my blocker) or empty white space (where ads had been) on every device. Twitter has centred text on my laptop (comparable to most blog platforms), or the text fills my full screen width on my phone (better than most blog platforms).
> and replies right in the middle of the main body of the text?
I don't see replies in the main body of the text. I can click on any given tweet to see the various replies, but otherwise the author's tweets remain in an unbroken chain.
As if blogs don't have ads on the side or even in the middle of a post occasionally. A properly threaded message will have all of the content linked together with replies falling all the way to the bottom. Just like a blog.
Twitter isn't nearly as difficult to use as some people like to make it out to be. My biggest petpeeve on Twitter. Is 30 different replies of "@ThreadReaderApp unroll".
Twitter isn't nearly as difficult to use as some people like to make it out to be. My biggest petpeeve on Twitter. Is 30 different replies of "@ThreadReaderApp unroll".
agree!
Although reading is more comfortable (for me) in a blog post, posts also tend to have way more junk before it gets to the point. I.e.: recipe posts, entertainment news, etc...
Although reading is more comfortable (for me) in a blog post, posts also tend to have way more junk before it gets to the point. I.e.: recipe posts, entertainment news, etc...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1345955063353597954.html
edit: I agree with you though. This should have been a blog post.
edit: I agree with you though. This should have been a blog post.
That was my first thought as well. I have such a hard time consuming content with the Twitter UI in the way.
> Though it's Californian to the point of having Nuclear Free Zone ordinances, SimCity allows players to set tax property tax rates above 1%. (probably because it would be unplayable otherwise)
Major shade being thrown at the state of CA here.
Major shade being thrown at the state of CA here.
The effective property tax rate in CA is actually well below 1%, since assessed values of properties are not allowed to rise faster than inflation or 2%, whichever is smaller.
When I bought my house, the effective property tax on it went from 0.1% to 1%, as the assessed value under Prop 13 was 1/10 of the purchase price.
When I bought my house, the effective property tax on it went from 0.1% to 1%, as the assessed value under Prop 13 was 1/10 of the purchase price.
I've been intrigued by property taxes since reading a book by Heinlein that sat on the shelf for 40 years before being published last year, "The Pursuit of the Pankera". In this otherwise forgettable story, the family settles on an Earth in a parallel universe where most of the taxes are property taxes. The rate is set by the government, but each parcel is self-assessed by the owner. The catch is that anyone, including the government can purchase the property at the assessed value at any time. It sounds like a good idea, that would encourage fairness, but I wonder if there are unforeseen consequences I am overlooking.
That sounds like a recipe for the Billionaires of the world to get their hands on a lot of otherwise unavailable property. Jeff Bezos will have no problem valuing his property at or even above market value, what's an extra million dollars in taxes to him compared to the shame of having it bought out from under him.
Would be a great way to get back at your enemies when you find out they've been undervaluing their assets though.
Would be a great way to get back at your enemies when you find out they've been undervaluing their assets though.
The potential for harassment is endless if you have the money. Even if you're fairly accessing the value of your house (and good luck doing this as a normal person), a rich person can buy it anyway and force you to move. They can do this over and over if they want.
Actually, it would be a good deal for landlords. They buy the house then offer to let the people rent it back. No need to deal with flaky tenants, these would be people in their family home. Would be a good place to park money from overseas that you're trying to hide too, solves the problem of the empty downtown condos because people hiding money don't really want to be landlords.
This is one of those systems economists think up that would be perfectly efficient so long as nobody is an asshole or irrational. About as useful as a horse race modeled as a set of identical spheres in perfect harmonic motion.
Actually, it would be a good deal for landlords. They buy the house then offer to let the people rent it back. No need to deal with flaky tenants, these would be people in their family home. Would be a good place to park money from overseas that you're trying to hide too, solves the problem of the empty downtown condos because people hiding money don't really want to be landlords.
This is one of those systems economists think up that would be perfectly efficient so long as nobody is an asshole or irrational. About as useful as a horse race modeled as a set of identical spheres in perfect harmonic motion.
The idea is most people will assess the value of their house at a premium, and tax rates are commensurately lowered. If the best way a rich person could mess with me is to buy my house for twice what it's worth, I would personally laugh all the way to the bank.
There is a bit of regressiveness to this though, as it will be worth it for people with a lot of property to pay someone to regularly update their assessed value to keep pace with the market, while those with less property will probably just set a large premium and update infrequently. This is a problem with pretty much any tax though; the more you are being taxed, the more you can afford to pay to figure out how not to be taxed.
I posted potential problems in my sibling comment earlier, but as far as this goes, the ugliest thing would be e.g. an 80 year old who forgot to update their assessed value in a hot market being kicked out by someone who bought their property to flip it for 2x the assessed value.
In theory, they are a tax-cheat who got what they deserved...
I suppose the free-market solution would be services that assess your home for a fee; they could provide insurance against undervaluation as well to incentivize them to do the right thing. This monetarily works out to be roughly equivalent to the government paying private companies to fairly assess people's home-values, but with financial incentives for doing it properly.
There is a bit of regressiveness to this though, as it will be worth it for people with a lot of property to pay someone to regularly update their assessed value to keep pace with the market, while those with less property will probably just set a large premium and update infrequently. This is a problem with pretty much any tax though; the more you are being taxed, the more you can afford to pay to figure out how not to be taxed.
I posted potential problems in my sibling comment earlier, but as far as this goes, the ugliest thing would be e.g. an 80 year old who forgot to update their assessed value in a hot market being kicked out by someone who bought their property to flip it for 2x the assessed value.
In theory, they are a tax-cheat who got what they deserved...
I suppose the free-market solution would be services that assess your home for a fee; they could provide insurance against undervaluation as well to incentivize them to do the right thing. This monetarily works out to be roughly equivalent to the government paying private companies to fairly assess people's home-values, but with financial incentives for doing it properly.
> The idea is most people will assess the value of their house at a premium
This seems a bit unlikely to me since you're directly raising your taxes by doing this. I'd expect the opposite, most people undervaluing their house on the assumption that "it won't happen to me". Also, if I bought for $200k 10 years ago then it can't possibly access for $450k today right? People don't have a good grasp on how fast a market can inflate given the conditions.
I would expect a lot more anti-tax guys who access their property at $1 and if someone comes up to take it they pull out their shotgun.
For this to work at all the government would have to provide a minimum and possibly maximum based on traditional assessments. Basically the system we have now except that you can say that you've done some work to spruce up your house so it's worth more and you like paying more taxes. But it also has the "feature" where you can be evicted by a person with money at any time. Can you imagine this in Silicon Valley? Old people being kicked out of their home by tech-bros would be a daily story.
This seems a bit unlikely to me since you're directly raising your taxes by doing this. I'd expect the opposite, most people undervaluing their house on the assumption that "it won't happen to me". Also, if I bought for $200k 10 years ago then it can't possibly access for $450k today right? People don't have a good grasp on how fast a market can inflate given the conditions.
I would expect a lot more anti-tax guys who access their property at $1 and if someone comes up to take it they pull out their shotgun.
For this to work at all the government would have to provide a minimum and possibly maximum based on traditional assessments. Basically the system we have now except that you can say that you've done some work to spruce up your house so it's worth more and you like paying more taxes. But it also has the "feature" where you can be evicted by a person with money at any time. Can you imagine this in Silicon Valley? Old people being kicked out of their home by tech-bros would be a daily story.
>> The idea is most people will assess the value of their house at a premium
> This seems a bit unlikely to me since you're directly raising your taxes by doing this. I'd expect the opposite, most people undervaluing their house on the assumption that "it won't happen to me". Also, if I bought for $200k 10 years ago then it can't possibly access for $450k today right? People don't have a good grasp on how fast a market can inflate given the conditions.
1. You're not supposed to set it at a price that the house is worth on the market, you're supposed to set it at the price that would make you willing to move. That requires a premium, because moving is a hassle and isn't free. Because of this a revenue-neutral version is coupled with a commensurate lowering of rates.
2. "it won't happen to me" will go away really quickly if people are undervaluing properties, because it will happen to everybody. Look at the people investing in properties now where they must pay market value; imagine if people can invest in properties for below market value. As with most radical change the period of transition will be terrible
> I would expect a lot more anti-tax guys who access their property at $1 and if someone comes up to take it they pull out their shotgun.
I'm not sure how that's different from them not paying their taxes at all and pulling out their shotgun when the government forecloses on them? It's not like a guy walks up with a $1 bill and says "now leave." Evictions would happen in the same manner they do now, and deed transfers are recorded in a notary's office, not on the property itself.
> For this to work at all the government would have to provide a minimum and possibly maximum based on traditional assessments. Basically the system we have now except that you can say that you've done some work to spruce up your house so it's worth more and you like paying more taxes. But it also has the "feature" where you can be evicted by a person with money at any time.
I see lots of problems with this system, but approximately zero of them are fixed by the government providing a valid range. That defeats the entire purpose of the system to be self-enforcing. One possible fix is rather than an automatic transfer, the owner could agree to a back-reassessment, combined with penalties. The penalties could be split between the government and "purchaser," as payment for their services.
> Can you imagine this in Silicon Valley? Old people being kicked out of their home by tech-bros would be a daily story.
This assumes either:
1. Old people don't follow the news or are too stupid to act on the news (it's a daily story and yet they don't bother to address it themselves?)
2. Old people can't afford the property tax on their house
Maybe you actually think #1. I think it will be much less frequent than daily; there's a certain point at which people are both afraid of something and yet some fraction neglect to take action on it (think deadly crashes from drunk driving or texting), which is probably the equilibrium we will reach. Again, an automated service that keeps your assessment in line with the market is an obvious offering here.
If you think #2, then this is why Proposition 13 was passed over 40 years ago, and that proposition seems to have popular support still. Economists question the need for a retired widow to live by themselves in a $2.5M 4 bedroom in Cupertino, but that of course neglects human factors like "I lived with my husband in this house for 30 years, and raised my kids here, won't you please let me live my last few years here?"
I think the last point is a disconnect between what is politically feasible in a democracy and what economists see as efficient allocation of a scarce resource; kicking an old person out of their house is never going to fly, but economically speaking, kicking an old person out of their house (and paying them well for it) and moving them to a smaller apartment to allow a 40 year-old FAANG engineer with 2 kids to move in is an obvious net win.
What we have now is the exact opposite. If the old person were to move to a smaller residence, they cannot pay less in taxes due to Proposition 13[1], so will be paying the same or higher taxes for a smaller place.
There's tons of issues with this proposal, I don't think it's worth pursuing if for no other reason than it's completely infeasible to pass as a law. It will also effectively be a bit regressive (though only down to middle-class; the very poor are not directly affected by this; if anything the landlord is going to be able to pay slightly less taxes, since they will want to charge a much lower premium on moving than owner-residents). However I think you are mostly barking up the wrong tree with regards to your criticisms of it.
1: Yes there are some limited exceptions, but I don't think it's possible for your taxes to go down unless you move to a place that is worth less than the inflation (max 2%) adjusted value of what you purchased your house for. A retired person who has lived in their house for many years in SV, that translates to "move a long ways away to the middle of nowhere." if you want to pay less.
> This seems a bit unlikely to me since you're directly raising your taxes by doing this. I'd expect the opposite, most people undervaluing their house on the assumption that "it won't happen to me". Also, if I bought for $200k 10 years ago then it can't possibly access for $450k today right? People don't have a good grasp on how fast a market can inflate given the conditions.
1. You're not supposed to set it at a price that the house is worth on the market, you're supposed to set it at the price that would make you willing to move. That requires a premium, because moving is a hassle and isn't free. Because of this a revenue-neutral version is coupled with a commensurate lowering of rates.
2. "it won't happen to me" will go away really quickly if people are undervaluing properties, because it will happen to everybody. Look at the people investing in properties now where they must pay market value; imagine if people can invest in properties for below market value. As with most radical change the period of transition will be terrible
> I would expect a lot more anti-tax guys who access their property at $1 and if someone comes up to take it they pull out their shotgun.
I'm not sure how that's different from them not paying their taxes at all and pulling out their shotgun when the government forecloses on them? It's not like a guy walks up with a $1 bill and says "now leave." Evictions would happen in the same manner they do now, and deed transfers are recorded in a notary's office, not on the property itself.
> For this to work at all the government would have to provide a minimum and possibly maximum based on traditional assessments. Basically the system we have now except that you can say that you've done some work to spruce up your house so it's worth more and you like paying more taxes. But it also has the "feature" where you can be evicted by a person with money at any time.
I see lots of problems with this system, but approximately zero of them are fixed by the government providing a valid range. That defeats the entire purpose of the system to be self-enforcing. One possible fix is rather than an automatic transfer, the owner could agree to a back-reassessment, combined with penalties. The penalties could be split between the government and "purchaser," as payment for their services.
> Can you imagine this in Silicon Valley? Old people being kicked out of their home by tech-bros would be a daily story.
This assumes either:
1. Old people don't follow the news or are too stupid to act on the news (it's a daily story and yet they don't bother to address it themselves?)
2. Old people can't afford the property tax on their house
Maybe you actually think #1. I think it will be much less frequent than daily; there's a certain point at which people are both afraid of something and yet some fraction neglect to take action on it (think deadly crashes from drunk driving or texting), which is probably the equilibrium we will reach. Again, an automated service that keeps your assessment in line with the market is an obvious offering here.
If you think #2, then this is why Proposition 13 was passed over 40 years ago, and that proposition seems to have popular support still. Economists question the need for a retired widow to live by themselves in a $2.5M 4 bedroom in Cupertino, but that of course neglects human factors like "I lived with my husband in this house for 30 years, and raised my kids here, won't you please let me live my last few years here?"
I think the last point is a disconnect between what is politically feasible in a democracy and what economists see as efficient allocation of a scarce resource; kicking an old person out of their house is never going to fly, but economically speaking, kicking an old person out of their house (and paying them well for it) and moving them to a smaller apartment to allow a 40 year-old FAANG engineer with 2 kids to move in is an obvious net win.
What we have now is the exact opposite. If the old person were to move to a smaller residence, they cannot pay less in taxes due to Proposition 13[1], so will be paying the same or higher taxes for a smaller place.
There's tons of issues with this proposal, I don't think it's worth pursuing if for no other reason than it's completely infeasible to pass as a law. It will also effectively be a bit regressive (though only down to middle-class; the very poor are not directly affected by this; if anything the landlord is going to be able to pay slightly less taxes, since they will want to charge a much lower premium on moving than owner-residents). However I think you are mostly barking up the wrong tree with regards to your criticisms of it.
1: Yes there are some limited exceptions, but I don't think it's possible for your taxes to go down unless you move to a place that is worth less than the inflation (max 2%) adjusted value of what you purchased your house for. A retired person who has lived in their house for many years in SV, that translates to "move a long ways away to the middle of nowhere." if you want to pay less.
Something like that would only be fair if first, wealth was fairly (re)distributed.
As of now there are enough people, corporations, and governments with enough money to buy property for other than its value or use. Petty revenge, fucking with critics, buying the blacks, Jews, hippies, cripples, etc out of your neighborhood. You have COVID, find a new place to live mother fucker.
As of now there are enough people, corporations, and governments with enough money to buy property for other than its value or use. Petty revenge, fucking with critics, buying the blacks, Jews, hippies, cripples, etc out of your neighborhood. You have COVID, find a new place to live mother fucker.
I heard that idea attributed to Heinlein many years ago from a friend who read everything he wrote.
A few downsides I thought of
1. It makes it easier for rich people to do mean things to poor people (it's not like there aren't already lots of ways, but something to think about)
2. In rapidly changing conditions, people who neglect to file their paperwork will get screwed -- either significantly overpay or get kicked out of their houses for below-market values. The people who are neglectful in paperwork are probably disproportionately those that we typically aim to protect with government interventions
3. Eminent domain changes a bit; people would naturally price their houses for above-market values, because being forced to move unexpectedly is a hassle, so you would assess your value at a premium to avoid that hassle. This means the government would likely have to pay more for property than the "fair market value" that courts require. Depending on where you fall on the political spectrum, that may be okay.
4. Holdouts[1] tend to be popular. Making it financially untenable to be a holdout thus might be too unpopular a law to pass.
4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)
A few downsides I thought of
1. It makes it easier for rich people to do mean things to poor people (it's not like there aren't already lots of ways, but something to think about)
2. In rapidly changing conditions, people who neglect to file their paperwork will get screwed -- either significantly overpay or get kicked out of their houses for below-market values. The people who are neglectful in paperwork are probably disproportionately those that we typically aim to protect with government interventions
3. Eminent domain changes a bit; people would naturally price their houses for above-market values, because being forced to move unexpectedly is a hassle, so you would assess your value at a premium to avoid that hassle. This means the government would likely have to pay more for property than the "fair market value" that courts require. Depending on where you fall on the political spectrum, that may be okay.
4. Holdouts[1] tend to be popular. Making it financially untenable to be a holdout thus might be too unpopular a law to pass.
4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holdout_(real_estate)
There are apparently-serious papers by economists about self-assessment taxes. (Well, somewhat serious; it seems to be a theoretical discussion.) For example:
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
Apparently this is sometimes called a "Harberger tax" after the economist who proposed it in 1965. Maybe that's where Heinlein got it?
I first saw this in a blog post by Robert Hanson, back when I still read him.
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...
Apparently this is sometimes called a "Harberger tax" after the economist who proposed it in 1965. Maybe that's where Heinlein got it?
I first saw this in a blog post by Robert Hanson, back when I still read him.
Oh come on you can just build more commercial real estate. Who cares about the workers? They can just live on the street.
(sarcasm)
(sarcasm)
The game rewarded strategies that were not backed up by empirical study, or even common sense: You could lace a city with rail from residential to industrial and commercial zones, and the people would still clamor for more and wider roads; There were no mixed use zoning (You cannot shop in your neighborhood?); Your people would demand more police and if you didn't give it to them, they'd riot!
The game rewarded you if you tried to make a California town. (But not Davis — no bike paths!) The city government could not build public housing … (The majority of housing in Helsinki is publicly owned).
I wanted to be able to twiddle the parameters based on the way real people and cities have been observed to behave. New study comes out that says that people seek out 15 minute walkable neighborhood? Go to the settings panel adjust the parameters accordingly … The people should riot if you give them too many cops.
When Yannis Varoufakis took a job as house economist at Valve (before he was appointed as Finance Minister of Greece), I thought it might be a good time to pitch the idea to them, but he left soon after.