Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web(twitter.com)
twitter.com
Out of prison after 30 years and people telling him to find forms on the web
https://twitter.com/_MariaBurnett/status/1369330209036632068
263 comments
I've never served time, but from what I understand, the burdens associated with being on parole (check ins, drug tests, danger of associating with the wrong people, etc.) are so onerous that many prefer to serve the full sentence so that when they get out, they are not on parole.
I would probably make the same choice.
I would probably make the same choice.
I learned only recently that people on parole have to pay for parole. All of the mandatory meetings and drugs tests are paid by the parolee. What happens if they can't pay?-- back to prison. It's brutal.
The two prison reforms I want to see the most:
1. Education programs that actually mean something and actually are adequately funded.
2. Retaining prison work, but requiring that prisoners who are not paid minimum wage where they are be paid the difference on release. (The Federal government may need to make this a protected fund or trust to make sure its not use as a fund to raid by lower governments and administrators.)
1. Education programs that actually mean something and actually are adequately funded.
2. Retaining prison work, but requiring that prisoners who are not paid minimum wage where they are be paid the difference on release. (The Federal government may need to make this a protected fund or trust to make sure its not use as a fund to raid by lower governments and administrators.)
They have some education programs, they just are always not focused on skills that are valuable outside. There’s also issues, believe it or not, about people not knowing these programs are avail. What we are doing is trying to create Edu programs for in demand skills and bring in a dif local business to teach each course. This way it breaks down the stigma for these businesses about hiring justice involved individuals, trains these individuals at a skill, and helps them get hired by these businesses after. And this is not training to work in fast food chains.
There’s also work release where certain members can go off location to work when they’re getting close to release. In addition there stuff like unicore https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/unicor.jsp Unicore pays pennies on the dollar though. But this money helps people upon release have enough maybe to get an apartment for their first month out - which most cant afford.
Some cool organizations trying to help, just as examples off the top of my head in case you are interested in looking further about solutions include:
-remerg https://remerg.com/
-KOBEYO https://www.kobeyo.com/
-Justice reskill https://justicereskill.com/
But main point is really these individuals that have served their time are not adequately given the resources they need to succeed. Tons of opportunities to contribute though - as with any u underserved demographic.
There’s also work release where certain members can go off location to work when they’re getting close to release. In addition there stuff like unicore https://www.bop.gov/inmates/custody_and_care/unicor.jsp Unicore pays pennies on the dollar though. But this money helps people upon release have enough maybe to get an apartment for their first month out - which most cant afford.
Some cool organizations trying to help, just as examples off the top of my head in case you are interested in looking further about solutions include:
-remerg https://remerg.com/
-KOBEYO https://www.kobeyo.com/
-Justice reskill https://justicereskill.com/
But main point is really these individuals that have served their time are not adequately given the resources they need to succeed. Tons of opportunities to contribute though - as with any u underserved demographic.
Shawshank Redemption did a great job showing a lot of this.
My uncle spent some time in prison in the late 80's and early 90's and was able to learn FoxPro while there. In addition to it being hard to find work having a criminal record, by the time he got out, everybody was transitioning away from FoxPro.
As is too often the case, the lure of money from selling drugs combined with not being able to find work meant he returned to prison. He got out again in the early-mid 2000's and this time around, there were no courses offered for study. When he got out that time, he didn't even know how to use the TV remote.
One day, history will look back on how we treat our prisoners with immense shame. Instead of trying to rehabilitate them, we leave them to rot, and politicians never shy away from an opportunity to make the lives of prisoners more miserable, lest they risk being called "soft" on crime.
As is too often the case, the lure of money from selling drugs combined with not being able to find work meant he returned to prison. He got out again in the early-mid 2000's and this time around, there were no courses offered for study. When he got out that time, he didn't even know how to use the TV remote.
One day, history will look back on how we treat our prisoners with immense shame. Instead of trying to rehabilitate them, we leave them to rot, and politicians never shy away from an opportunity to make the lives of prisoners more miserable, lest they risk being called "soft" on crime.
I'm sure many people here have experienced frustration helping older relatives or friends use computers. Recently though, I realized, that computers are just way too hard to use.
In our pursuit to avoid cryptic black screens with command prompts, a user must now understand that their computer has Windows with all of its menus and functions, a browser window with all of its menus and functions, running a webapp, with all of its menus and functions. Whenever functionality bleeds into other layers ("how do I print this pdf file"), it is a huge hassle trying to explain "oh, it's not that print button, its this other print button".
It makes me sad to think that people prefer their "appliance computers" (phones, tablets, chromebooks) over real computers, but I can hardly blame them.
In our pursuit to avoid cryptic black screens with command prompts, a user must now understand that their computer has Windows with all of its menus and functions, a browser window with all of its menus and functions, running a webapp, with all of its menus and functions. Whenever functionality bleeds into other layers ("how do I print this pdf file"), it is a huge hassle trying to explain "oh, it's not that print button, its this other print button".
It makes me sad to think that people prefer their "appliance computers" (phones, tablets, chromebooks) over real computers, but I can hardly blame them.
Even appliance computers are not immune to this. Had an elderly neighbour asking for help after struggling to forward a message sent by one contact on whatsapp to another contact on facebook. Having to explain:
> Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp.
> And oh look, apparently whatsapp and/or facebook has a bug where you select to share the video and you end up at the whatsapp contact screen but selecting a contact loses the video.
> Well I guess you can go into your gallery and share from there. That seems to work. But not every app is going to expose its images in your gallery.
And it became clear that even the simple devices aren't.
> Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp.
> And oh look, apparently whatsapp and/or facebook has a bug where you select to share the video and you end up at the whatsapp contact screen but selecting a contact loses the video.
> Well I guess you can go into your gallery and share from there. That seems to work. But not every app is going to expose its images in your gallery.
And it became clear that even the simple devices aren't.
> Well there's usually an icon that looks like this, and sometimes it will bring up the android share menu, but sometimes it opens up something that only shows you contact in that app, and having someone on facebook is not the same as on whatsapp.
Back in my day, Apple had something called the Human Interface Guidelines and they adhered to them religiously, and IMHO it made computing a lot more approachable for a neophyte, compared to the mess we have today with "hamburger menus" vs. "triple-dot menus" (REALLY??), no general way to access the settings of any app, no general way to do anything really save for typing in text (and sometimes not even then!)
Instagram and Snapchat (the worst offender here, you literally won't learn some inputs unless someone tells you about them!) have not made anything better.
Back in my day, Apple had something called the Human Interface Guidelines and they adhered to them religiously, and IMHO it made computing a lot more approachable for a neophyte, compared to the mess we have today with "hamburger menus" vs. "triple-dot menus" (REALLY??), no general way to access the settings of any app, no general way to do anything really save for typing in text (and sometimes not even then!)
Instagram and Snapchat (the worst offender here, you literally won't learn some inputs unless someone tells you about them!) have not made anything better.
besides some apps that do weird stuff, there is always a button to open settings, isn't there? Or is that just android?
What a lot of people here don't get is that many people have zero interest in using a computer. They want to talk on the phone, order from Amazon, and play solitaire. That's pretty much the sum total of what my dad wants to use his computer/smartphone for.
He has absolutely zero interest in learning how file systems work, the intricacies of networks, or anything else about the underlying plumbing that allows him to do the things he wants to do.
I'd add that many of us have internalized how to use phones/tablets over time as they've become incrementally more complex. I still never remember all the details of having multiple windows open on a tablet given I don't use that functionality much and I periodically learn some trick I never knew about.
He has absolutely zero interest in learning how file systems work, the intricacies of networks, or anything else about the underlying plumbing that allows him to do the things he wants to do.
I'd add that many of us have internalized how to use phones/tablets over time as they've become incrementally more complex. I still never remember all the details of having multiple windows open on a tablet given I don't use that functionality much and I periodically learn some trick I never knew about.
Imagine being an 80+ senior who doesn't have a computer or Internet and being told that the only way to register for a COVID vaccine is online. That's how our initial rollout was handled (Ontario, Canada).
I feel like someone should try to start from scratch and design a phone interface that any elderly person would be perfectly comfortable using and understanding.
And then sell it to the rest of us as well.
And then sell it to the rest of us as well.
I can't emphasize how much this needs to be done (granted, the population in the age group that needs it the most is shrinking).
The current seniors phone are utter crap. I've tried a bunch for my dad.
My dad, 80+, can't figure out how to use a feature phone (I got him a Nokia handset) much less a smartphone (have tried iPhone and Android).
The thing is, he has no desire to read a menu, or figure out what an icon means, or what the text under the icon says. He can't even be bothered trying to understand up, down, left, right and OK in terms of navigating a phone's capabilities.
What he does know how to use is a land line. He's got a Northern Telecom phone with some pre-programmed numbers, and he seems to have no problem with that at all. He doesn't know how to do voice mail on his phone, but he does know how to use an old school answering machine.
If someone can make a phone that behaves more like a traditional phone (i.e., maybe a lid flips so that it's like lifting a phone off the hook, close the lid to hang up), and no send/cancel buttons, I think my dad would be able to figure it out more easily.
On a separate note, the reasons above are the same reasons why he can't use a media player on a TV. He only knows the concept of sticking physical media into a player, and using the standard media buttons, and for the TV, he is used to punching in numbers to change the channel.
Menu navigation, which is easy for most people under 60, is SO foreign to him.
The current seniors phone are utter crap. I've tried a bunch for my dad.
My dad, 80+, can't figure out how to use a feature phone (I got him a Nokia handset) much less a smartphone (have tried iPhone and Android).
The thing is, he has no desire to read a menu, or figure out what an icon means, or what the text under the icon says. He can't even be bothered trying to understand up, down, left, right and OK in terms of navigating a phone's capabilities.
What he does know how to use is a land line. He's got a Northern Telecom phone with some pre-programmed numbers, and he seems to have no problem with that at all. He doesn't know how to do voice mail on his phone, but he does know how to use an old school answering machine.
If someone can make a phone that behaves more like a traditional phone (i.e., maybe a lid flips so that it's like lifting a phone off the hook, close the lid to hang up), and no send/cancel buttons, I think my dad would be able to figure it out more easily.
On a separate note, the reasons above are the same reasons why he can't use a media player on a TV. He only knows the concept of sticking physical media into a player, and using the standard media buttons, and for the TV, he is used to punching in numbers to change the channel.
Menu navigation, which is easy for most people under 60, is SO foreign to him.
That interface already exists, even those elderly people will mostly understand a phone with physical buttons and a numerical pad.
But once you remove the physical buttons everything becomes much less intuitive and hinges way more on proper UI design in addition to making a lot of assumptions about a users knowledge on touch controls.
But once you remove the physical buttons everything becomes much less intuitive and hinges way more on proper UI design in addition to making a lot of assumptions about a users knowledge on touch controls.
Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption.
I think this has two big benefits:
- Minor point: Greater resilience to downtime, interruptions to service
- Major point: a check on becoming a faceless entity with no exposure to the public. Think Google or FB if you get flagged. If there's a number you can call or an office you can go to and a guarantee of service via those modalities, it provides at least a modicum of accountability.
I think this has two big benefits:
- Minor point: Greater resilience to downtime, interruptions to service
- Major point: a check on becoming a faceless entity with no exposure to the public. Think Google or FB if you get flagged. If there's a number you can call or an office you can go to and a guarantee of service via those modalities, it provides at least a modicum of accountability.
Government services are available offline or via phone as well. The government has some of the strictest accessibility requirements for everything they do. It’s one of the reasons that it’s so expensive to roll out new government services.
People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving the limited in person and call staff to handle the rare cases who need them.
The mistake here was that the person was only informed of the online version, rather than being told where to go or who to call to handle this offline.
People are directed to the online versions first because it’s fastest for everyone involved. We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first, while leaving the limited in person and call staff to handle the rare cases who need them.
The mistake here was that the person was only informed of the online version, rather than being told where to go or who to call to handle this offline.
> Government services are available offline or via phone as well
The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country.
You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well.
Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only.
[1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
[2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
The US Embassy FBU in London has recently switched to email only. They no longer accept postal mail. [1] The FBU handles social security related matters for those out of the country.
You can visit in person only for urgent visits with an appointment which they point out are limited. [2] They no longer list a phone number of their site so appointments must be made through email as well.
Their territory reaches very far from London so in person visits for Americans in South Africa means event urgent requests are email only.
[1]https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
[2] https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/federal-benefi...
Polish consulates everywhere have also switched to an online-only appointment system, you can't visit if you haven't got an appointment(except for emergencies), you can't book an appointment over the phone, you have to use the website.
This seems to be the case for other embassies of other nations too (I am an expat). But I do get the feeling that if you have moved to another country then you probably are more able to access services online (buying the ticket to get there in the first place is a start) than some 90 year old 'back home' who's never left the village.
I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
I guess the flipside is your needs may be more complex (passport / family / citizenship issues always are) so having someone competent to talk to on the phone is necessary.
Landing in another country is one of the scenarios where you're most likely to be unable to access telecommunications. For example, you find your internet provider doesn't work internationally, you can't enable roaming without visiting their website, your phone isn't compatible with the local spectrum, your credit card gets fraud-flagged when you try to buy a local sim card because you forgot to tell Visa you'd be travelling, and you discover there's rules against paying in cash for a phone plan.
These are all just some of the things that can go wrong arriving in a foreign country!
These are all just some of the things that can go wrong arriving in a foreign country!
Yes that is unfortunate - but all out of the remit of what an embassy will help you with. Maybe if things have gone so wrong for you that you throw loosing your passport into the mix, or being physically detained by the police in the host nation then perhaps they'll help out.
But, at least for my own country, they're definitely not there to help you with connectivity issues.
But, at least for my own country, they're definitely not there to help you with connectivity issues.
Yeah of course they're not. My post is about not being able to contact an embassy (or any other critical service) that offers only a web interface, when you have embassy-relevant business to discuss. It happens that the very time when you most might need the service of an embassy coincides with times when you are least likely to be able to access the internet: freshly arriving on foreign soil. The post is not about expecting the embassy to fix your internet connection, just to anticipate your lack of it.
Exactly. Otherwise what is the point of having an embassy if everything is to be done only online :)
Please keep in mind that some expats have been living overseas for 60+ years. They shouldn't be expected to know more about technology for any other senior citizen.
Very true. For 99% of cases I would guess they're dealing with expats who didn't get a check or have a question about medicare coverage.
The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12)
But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".
The example they give of an emergency is "a 12 year old needs to have a social security number issued". I think social security numbers are issued at birth now, so I don't think it comes up often. (Coincidentally I did need to have mine issued very quickly at 12)
But, to OP's point, there are services that are indeed moving to "online only".
The probably don't accept telegrams either. Maybe email is now easier/quicker/more cost effective than processing letter mail?
Not offering any way to communicate with them would be even more cost effective, but might cause difficulties for some citizens.
Online-first and even online-only services seem to be happening more often this year while in-person offices are shut down or restricted.
I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in.
I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.
I tried to get a form at the DMV a few months ago and when I got to the counter they sent me away with a printed slip of their web address. (They are currently only handling licensing and renewals in person; all title and registration processing forms are apparently supposed to be done online.) I tried calling their central office and they told me I needed to print the form from their website and mail it in.
I suppose if I had asked them really, really nicely they might have mailed me a printed form, but it was never presented as an option (and that wasn't my issue anyway). It's also worth noting that this is state government and not federal, so compliance to accessibility requirements may not be as regulated or well-enforced.
In the US, I was in a government office a few days ago because I was told that if instead of uploaded documents via a website and waiting 10-45 days to have them reviewed I could go into a local office and provide these documents and they would review them on-site.
So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office.
While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents.
My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents.
Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.
So I set off on a 35 minute drive to the local office.
While the wait times were shorter in the physical building I had to chuckle when I thought they were just collecting documents and uploading them to the same online portal I was warned would take a fair bit of time, but that I needed to allow a few more days past the 45 day limit because they fax them into the same remote place periodically. Their email system for the document collecting office does not allow email attachment of documents.
My other option, I kid you not, was to used their "house" cell phone and login to sensitive accounts, bank ect. And screenshot the information and use the same web-form to upload said documents.
Oh, and covid, I could not touch the "house" cellphone but he would wanted me to write my logins in a piece of scratch paper and he could navigate for me based on my direction.
I've had this experience with better results. I had a tax issue that I tried to resolve via phone, email, and paper mail for over a year. Finally went to the local office and they resolved it on the spot in 10 minutes.
Be glad they don't allow emailing important documents, they certainly wouldn't encrypt them if they did.
I had to drop off a bunch of property tax documents for the city assessor in a tier 1 city. There was just a cardbox box in a hallway with a sign taped to it 'Homestead Applications'. I could have taken all the other applications out of the box when I put mine in if i wanted to.
Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.
Emailing unencrypted documents honestly sounds a bit better to me then leaving all my info in a publicly accessible box.
> We should be pushing everyone toward efficient online self-service first
I was with you until that statement.
If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at.
Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.
I was with you until that statement.
If we push online, self-service first, then the offline, in person services will languish. This is what OP was driving at.
Establish effective offline services _first_, with the intention of online, self-service, and you will end up in a place that better serves everyone.
A few months ago I had to go fetch a simple registration form. Usually a matter of like 15 minutes at rush hour.
Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call.
So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
Due to the pandemic, they had strict rules and required me to first book an appointment one week later for a specific time slot. Reserving that time slot was only possible via phone call.
So I basically had to wait a full week for a one-page printout with a stamp on it. Should this be possible offline? Yes, but why not save most people the drive and waiting times if this could also be done instantly via a simple digital signature?
I am not suggesting that online, self-serve shouldn't exist. I am not even suggesting that we shouldn't encourage them. I am merely pointing out that we can't implement those _first_ at what will inevitably be the expense of in-person services where needed.
Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
Develop the paper forms. Figure out what needs an gov't employee or other official to help with the necessary steps. _Then_ offer complementary self-serve options that can streamline the process.
In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required. Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs, and that way all the information will flow into the system the same way: digitally.
It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
It's 2021. Why are we still talking about paper forms for government functions?
>In-person doesn't mean that paper forms are required.
Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury.
> Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs
That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems.
Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury.
> Self-service kiosks are a perfectly reasonable way to support in-person needs
That isn't true. A very significant portion of the population needs help with these systems.
Hell, I had to order a hamburger from a fast food restaurant one time, and I was intimidated and confused, (I at least got my food eventually). Most the customers who came in tried to avoid the system and went straight to the cashier.
> Agreed. All I am really advocating for is that we don't expect people to have sign into a website from a computer/phone at home. Some people don't have that luxury.
We could set it up so that everybody does. Public libraries have traditionally been great at this, although they could certainly do with more funding.
We could set it up so that everybody does. Public libraries have traditionally been great at this, although they could certainly do with more funding.
I can vouch for how strict they are about their accessibility requirements. I was working for a contracting company that was making training materials and teaching a class for the government, and all the material had to have a voice recording for blind employees, even though that particular job we were teaching for couldn't be done by blind people. We also had to provide a script of everything that was covered and wasn't on the slides in case a deaf person was in the class. It made it difficult to teach the class because the instructor couldn't cover anything that wasn't in the written script, or else it would be considered discrimination against the deaf employees.
Ah, yes... they’re available, they say.
Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers:
—————-
“But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.”
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”
Reminds me of this scene from Hitchhikers:
—————-
“But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months.”
“Oh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything.”
“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.’”
I think it makes accountability easier as well. And this is actually the reason why I don't do online billing as much as possible.
A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than:
Me: your honor, I swear I paid them Corp: our computer thingy says you didn't. also it's a tangle of 50 different sql databases, so we'll never know the truth for sure
Similarly, if you have a bunch of paper showing that you did something with respect to the government that feels safer than officers showing up to your house because a database upgrade went sideways. Something is traceable. There's an artifact that can be used to reconstruct what really happened.
And the government needing forms can be useful too. If an internal auditor (or reporter or something) shows up and finds a bunch of filled out forms in the trash or they see that some forms are intentionally not replenished, then they can bust some skulls. However, on the other hand if things are just "lol the computer says you can't have freedoms and liberty" then maybe it's because of a bug with respect to the hyphen in your last name or maybe it's because someone is persecuting you illegally, but nobody can prove anything and there's no trail to follow.
A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than:
Me: your honor, I swear I paid them Corp: our computer thingy says you didn't. also it's a tangle of 50 different sql databases, so we'll never know the truth for sure
Similarly, if you have a bunch of paper showing that you did something with respect to the government that feels safer than officers showing up to your house because a database upgrade went sideways. Something is traceable. There's an artifact that can be used to reconstruct what really happened.
And the government needing forms can be useful too. If an internal auditor (or reporter or something) shows up and finds a bunch of filled out forms in the trash or they see that some forms are intentionally not replenished, then they can bust some skulls. However, on the other hand if things are just "lol the computer says you can't have freedoms and liberty" then maybe it's because of a bug with respect to the hyphen in your last name or maybe it's because someone is persecuting you illegally, but nobody can prove anything and there's no trail to follow.
In the UK hundreds of postmasters were accused of stealing by the Post Office because their accounting system couldn't add up†. Many lost their jobs. Some were jailed. It took twenty years for the management to admit that their system was broken.
I work in software and I do not trust it. Like you, I get paper bills. Where that's not an option I keep my own records.
† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_(IT_system)
I work in software and I do not trust it. Like you, I get paper bills. Where that's not an option I keep my own records.
† https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_(IT_system)
This the same idea behind why I only push my online bill payments to service providers and never allow them to pull from my bank account. I want any mistakes to be my own rather than having to claw back a double payment that drains my account after the fact.
I do allow some services to auto-bill my credit card. That's the bank's money first and credit cards offer more protection in the event of billing errors.
I do allow some services to auto-bill my credit card. That's the bank's money first and credit cards offer more protection in the event of billing errors.
I get digitally signed PDFs from service providers each month, similarly from various gov agencies.
Sure, there are still a lot of people who simply isn't comfortable handling this, and for them send them printed versions.
Auditors and reporters should audit the end-result, not look at paper baskets. We already know "oops liberty not found" happens in a lot of cases yet the powers that be does nothing. (Because it can't because it's a in a gridlock, because well, a lot of people are still just a xenophobic bigoted harmful dickhole waving their (single issue) flag.)
Sure, there are still a lot of people who simply isn't comfortable handling this, and for them send them printed versions.
Auditors and reporters should audit the end-result, not look at paper baskets. We already know "oops liberty not found" happens in a lot of cases yet the powers that be does nothing. (Because it can't because it's a in a gridlock, because well, a lot of people are still just a xenophobic bigoted harmful dickhole waving their (single issue) flag.)
> Auditors and reporters should audit the end-result
I mean, sure. It's just that it's really hard to know how we got to any given end-result. Hey, we see a guy who is really having problems getting services for his kids from the state. Investigation time! Oh, it turns out he's got a bunch of money but he just doesn't want to spend it on his kids. So the reason why he's not getting the services is legit.
MEANWHILE
A guy isn't getting services for his kids AND we see that his forms are all in the trash outside of the statehouse. And there's Jimmy from the service department emptying some more filled out forms into the trash. Ah ha!
If it was an electronic form, then Jimmy could just hit delete (maybe even accidentally) and we would never know.
The point of paper is to make it harder for people in government to get away with not helping. Yeah, ideally we would investigate everything, but we just don't have the resources for that. Forcing someone to throw away paper into a basket is a shortcut to help people investigate.
I mean, sure. It's just that it's really hard to know how we got to any given end-result. Hey, we see a guy who is really having problems getting services for his kids from the state. Investigation time! Oh, it turns out he's got a bunch of money but he just doesn't want to spend it on his kids. So the reason why he's not getting the services is legit.
MEANWHILE
A guy isn't getting services for his kids AND we see that his forms are all in the trash outside of the statehouse. And there's Jimmy from the service department emptying some more filled out forms into the trash. Ah ha!
If it was an electronic form, then Jimmy could just hit delete (maybe even accidentally) and we would never know.
The point of paper is to make it harder for people in government to get away with not helping. Yeah, ideally we would investigate everything, but we just don't have the resources for that. Forcing someone to throw away paper into a basket is a shortcut to help people investigate.
This seems to be some kind of epicycles argument. :)
Paper is no different from digital documents when it comes to shady government business. It's just as likely for said magical auditors to find printed copies, email attachments, missing reports, missing data, misplaced data, forgotten backups, and so on. (Have I mentioned the tendency of digital things to be easy to get copied? Whistleblowers? Also I want to mention just to be redundant: backups!)
Audits are conducted based on processes. If the process is so lax that it does not mandate adequate records keeping then that problem needs fixing. And ... reporters write about this all the time, paper or not, it doesn't matter.
Just look at how the ATF's National Trace Center (the federal gun database) is still paper based to protect privacy. (To protect against a government overreach.)
"Interestingly" other special interest groups were less successful in keeping their records out of searchable databases.
If someone is not getting the money they are allocated by law, they usually sue. In the trial the plaintiff presents the evidence (documents in whatever form) that support (prove) that they are due whatever money they are not getting. Then it's the government's responsibility to contest that, show the problem with the argument, or show some document that changes the outcome of the assessment.
Paper is no different from digital documents when it comes to shady government business. It's just as likely for said magical auditors to find printed copies, email attachments, missing reports, missing data, misplaced data, forgotten backups, and so on. (Have I mentioned the tendency of digital things to be easy to get copied? Whistleblowers? Also I want to mention just to be redundant: backups!)
Audits are conducted based on processes. If the process is so lax that it does not mandate adequate records keeping then that problem needs fixing. And ... reporters write about this all the time, paper or not, it doesn't matter.
Just look at how the ATF's National Trace Center (the federal gun database) is still paper based to protect privacy. (To protect against a government overreach.)
"Interestingly" other special interest groups were less successful in keeping their records out of searchable databases.
If someone is not getting the money they are allocated by law, they usually sue. In the trial the plaintiff presents the evidence (documents in whatever form) that support (prove) that they are due whatever money they are not getting. Then it's the government's responsibility to contest that, show the problem with the argument, or show some document that changes the outcome of the assessment.
Which service providers are we talking about, if you don't mind sharing? Utilities, mortgages, that sort of thing?
I don't recall ever seeing such an option.
I don't recall ever seeing such an option.
Hungarian ones. Utilities (for example I just checked my ISP's invoice, it's digitally signed [and timestamped]).
A stack of papers going back years showing that the corporate entity you're dealing with confirms that you payed them on time for years feels a lot better defense than:
I do agree with this sentiment, but I would like to point out that one can achieve the same effect (or very nearly so) by saving the "receipt" page or confirmation page that you usually get with online transactions. You could either save a directory full of PDF's and only print them out if there actually is a need for them in court, or you could even print them as you encounter them and build up that "big stack of papers" over time.
Yes this imposes extra friction, which does suck, but it's something.
I do agree with this sentiment, but I would like to point out that one can achieve the same effect (or very nearly so) by saving the "receipt" page or confirmation page that you usually get with online transactions. You could either save a directory full of PDF's and only print them out if there actually is a need for them in court, or you could even print them as you encounter them and build up that "big stack of papers" over time.
Yes this imposes extra friction, which does suck, but it's something.
Yeah, this is true.
But I personally like having paper that the corporation printed out versus something that I printed out. Like, technically, you can fake the "receipt" page because it's just some html etc. The only thing that proves that what you have is real is the confirmation number and suddenly you're back to hoping that the corporation that asserts you owe them money has and will provide all of their sql databases so that you can show that your confirmation number is genuine.
On the other hand, if I have years of documents they produced and the styles and layout, paper quality, postal records, etc all match what everyone else has in their homes, then, yeah, it could still be faked, but it's a much harder pill for a judge to swallow. Like, at some point people are going to decide that you're either telling the truth or you are a super genius with way too much time on your hands. Either way they're going to tend towards letting you off the hook.
But I personally like having paper that the corporation printed out versus something that I printed out. Like, technically, you can fake the "receipt" page because it's just some html etc. The only thing that proves that what you have is real is the confirmation number and suddenly you're back to hoping that the corporation that asserts you owe them money has and will provide all of their sql databases so that you can show that your confirmation number is genuine.
On the other hand, if I have years of documents they produced and the styles and layout, paper quality, postal records, etc all match what everyone else has in their homes, then, yeah, it could still be faked, but it's a much harder pill for a judge to swallow. Like, at some point people are going to decide that you're either telling the truth or you are a super genius with way too much time on your hands. Either way they're going to tend towards letting you off the hook.
One possibility is signed PDF's. You can verify that the corporation created the document, that it has not been changed. That is more security than a piece of paper. You can forge a document.
It's not really compelling to a jury though. Digital signature verification is just a magical computer saying something that the expert witness fails to explain very well.
Meanwhile, the jury can look at 200 bill receipts and see the age of the paper for themselves. Like, yeah it could be faked, but it means they were planning on faking something for 20 years.
Meanwhile, the jury can look at 200 bill receipts and see the age of the paper for themselves. Like, yeah it could be faked, but it means they were planning on faking something for 20 years.
Well the problem with this in Canada is that it's not a binary decision between paper forms from an office and submitting a web form; there are a bunch of in-between technologies that also need to be supported: fax machines, order paper forms via an automated telephone system, file by phone, fill out a PDF, print and mail - how do you decide when you can phase out any or all of these?
Also counter-intuitively, a physical office you can visit or phone number where you're on hold for an hour plus, and need to access between 9am-4pm, M-F could actually be less accessible for a huge portion of society compared to 24/7 web forms. If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?
Also counter-intuitively, a physical office you can visit or phone number where you're on hold for an hour plus, and need to access between 9am-4pm, M-F could actually be less accessible for a huge portion of society compared to 24/7 web forms. If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?
> If I don't file required forms because I can't get to a government office who's accountable for that?
That is a big problem. But in my experience, we always manage somehow, if only by mandating someone else to do it for us. The level of unaccountability reached with online services here in France during COVID times is incredible. At least when we had physical places to go, i could always have someone face-to-face to have an argument about why the hell the system is broken. Now this is not an option anymore...
That is a big problem. But in my experience, we always manage somehow, if only by mandating someone else to do it for us. The level of unaccountability reached with online services here in France during COVID times is incredible. At least when we had physical places to go, i could always have someone face-to-face to have an argument about why the hell the system is broken. Now this is not an option anymore...
My drivers license expires later this year, which is the first time that I have ever needed to renew it. Due to COVID, my license could be renewed online. I did it last night.
The problem? I couldn’t update any of my info from when I was 16 unless I went in person.
What this ultimately means is that I will be 34 when this new license expires, using a baby faced teenage photo from 18 years prior, with physical descriptions that are out of date and inaccurate.
Oh well.
The problem? I couldn’t update any of my info from when I was 16 unless I went in person.
What this ultimately means is that I will be 34 when this new license expires, using a baby faced teenage photo from 18 years prior, with physical descriptions that are out of date and inaccurate.
Oh well.
Same here. I'm nearing 32, with a baby-faced ill-advised high school ponytail headshot on my license.
Was it not an option to go in person?
No, I could have gone in-person if I wanted. But who wants to take an hour out of their day to go to the DMV? What do I care if my government-issued ID is inaccurate? That's their problem.
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It could also potentially be your problem.
What if an officer pulls you over and has to compare current you to your ID? Could be cause for trouble.
What if an officer pulls you over and has to compare current you to your ID? Could be cause for trouble.
> Unpopular opinion: I think government services and offices should remain offline-first forever. They should offer online equivalents, but they should never assume or require digital adoption.
The converse is that the government should provide free internet access to all citizens and immigrants, IF that is the primary way to communicate with the govt.
I also reject that "mail is an option" when mail takes 6-8 weeks to get to a federal/state inbox, and takes that much time back. Even contacts at agencies I work with have me send DVDs to their contractors to bypass federal months-long delays in sending required resources.
The converse is that the government should provide free internet access to all citizens and immigrants, IF that is the primary way to communicate with the govt.
I also reject that "mail is an option" when mail takes 6-8 weeks to get to a federal/state inbox, and takes that much time back. Even contacts at agencies I work with have me send DVDs to their contractors to bypass federal months-long delays in sending required resources.
Also there should be programs to re-integrate prisoners after incarceration, or just generally give them better access to be able to keep up with the outside world.
There should also be a lot less carcerial punishment. We overuse the prison system. Far too much of that is due to either minimum sentencing laws the judges and even prosecutors tend to hate and to line the pockets of private prisons or private corporations servicing public prisons and inmates.
Absolutely. But I'm also a realist that realizes that States have de-prioritized Covid vaccines purely because of optics placed above public health.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andr...
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
Because of that, any plans that try to to help everyone MUST have no exceptions for offenders. In that way, it would have a better chance to pass since it doesn't directly call out offenders.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-local-correspondents/andr...
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
Because of that, any plans that try to to help everyone MUST have no exceptions for offenders. In that way, it would have a better chance to pass since it doesn't directly call out offenders.
As far as your minor point, it is likely the person behind the desk will be looking at basically the same interface you would be online, then just typing things in for you. So if there is a service interruption, it’s likely they would also be saying “Sorry, our systems are down.”
I agree.
I also think that if Government keeps pushing everything to the internet, then the internet needs to be a utility.
I also think that if Government keeps pushing everything to the internet, then the internet needs to be a utility.
I feel the opposite - any contact should be online only and traceable - this will minimise surface area where the corruption could creep in as any conversation prior to the decisions could be audited.
You know there will be no table to slide the money under.
Offline-first or offline-only can be a major barrier to accessibility. Those who cannot travel (due to a disability) or cannot travel far (due to cost) are disadvantaged.
Offering services online is a major game-changer for such folks.
Offering services online is a major game-changer for such folks.
This is a reason why an accessible national mail system is also a good thing.
Popular opinion: I think governments should invest at least a mangitude more money into adult education and life long learning should be normalized.
Situations like the one mentioned here shouldn't happen.
Situations like the one mentioned here shouldn't happen.
Agreed , it's not a bad idea to always have an offline backup system just in case. Like if you're filing for unemployment, you can only do that via the government, you can't just go to a different unemployment office. So having a way to send in the form manually is always a surefire thing. Even if it just gets digitized later, that's more than enough to prevent something like an oracle system's downtime stopping hundreds of thousands of people filing for benefits
I've found that the govt can get away with your second major point regardless of an online presence. My example is property taxes in Cook County, IL. Biggest shit show you'll ever experience. I had the board side with me and it took 3 years to get the money back. Keyword is back, money already paid. No number of calls, in person meetings helped. I must have gone there about 6-7 times and nothing.
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Right now the right to live and work of many EU citizens can only be applied for electronically and proven only through a webpage.
If that database field ever goes from 'true' to 'false' they will be fired, deported and never allowed into the country again.
If that database field ever goes from 'true' to 'false' they will be fired, deported and never allowed into the country again.
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Agreed!
And if government services do go online only, then I think the government is obligated to provide free internet access and training to those who can't afford it, in the same way that they provide roads and legal defense.
And if government services do go online only, then I think the government is obligated to provide free internet access and training to those who can't afford it, in the same way that they provide roads and legal defense.
UK thinks like you
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35569281
A lot of people don't have reliable internet access still.
You've forgotten to include cost, in your cost/benefit analysis.
That's kind of important.
That's kind of important.
The ship has already sailed on the major point. It really doesn't help that both the high level administrators, the unions and a non-trivial amount of the public push things in the direction of bureaucrats just being cogs in the machine with no agency.
Clearly wherever this is (US?) prisons are not about rehabilitation and inclusion back into society.
Weren't there any classes? Books? Library? Computer rooms?
It's complete failure of a justice system if person comes out of prison like from a time capsule. IMHO it may just increase recidivism - what can a person do in a "free" world if he/she were not let to know about the world outside prison walls?
Weren't there any classes? Books? Library? Computer rooms?
It's complete failure of a justice system if person comes out of prison like from a time capsule. IMHO it may just increase recidivism - what can a person do in a "free" world if he/she were not let to know about the world outside prison walls?
I'm less convinced it's a failure of the system, but more an expectation of the system.
Just look at the replies on the twitter post. They amount to "shouldn't have done the crime then". Get raped/attacked in prison? Whoops, shouldn't have done the crime then. Released unprepared and institutionalized after 3 decades in prison? Whoops, shouldn't have done the crime then.
I strongly suspect there's a lot less interest in rehabilitation than we like to think. Being let down by a profit-driven incarceration system is only one facet of this.
Just look at the replies on the twitter post. They amount to "shouldn't have done the crime then". Get raped/attacked in prison? Whoops, shouldn't have done the crime then. Released unprepared and institutionalized after 3 decades in prison? Whoops, shouldn't have done the crime then.
I strongly suspect there's a lot less interest in rehabilitation than we like to think. Being let down by a profit-driven incarceration system is only one facet of this.
There’s a lack of addressing mental health issues inside. There’s a lack of people thinking about what some people have dealt with since children and why they ended up inside. People wonder why there is recidivism or why people end up in jail. A lot of it has to do with the lack of opportunity and mentorship in peoples lives starting with childhood...and then especially after turbulent times, never introducing itself ever to these individuals. It’s not like people want to end up like this. For many of these individuals they’ve never had the support and opportunities many of us don’t realize we’re so lucky to have.
> Get raped/attacked in prison? Whoops, shouldn't have done the crime then.
It's more than this - tough-on-crime rhetoric is largely explicitly built around interracial (black on white) homosexual rape and abuse fantasies.
It's more than this - tough-on-crime rhetoric is largely explicitly built around interracial (black on white) homosexual rape and abuse fantasies.
Budgets are stretched thin as it is. They have only three ways to spend the taxpayers' money for prisons: More walls, more bars, more guards. My uncle wrote the state senate two times a week for years requesting funds, they couldn't ignore him forever. But getting out, he couldn't believe how fast things move on the outside, like the world went and got itself in a big damn hurry.
It varies by state, region and facility. Don't forget that there are privately owned prisons in the US. Some programs do not allow you access to certain materials and when they do very likely may be old/outdated.
And of course...it just adds to their money if people reoffend.
And of course...it just adds to their money if people reoffend.
>"IMHO it may just increase recidivism"
Keeping people in prisons might be just what the US prison industrial complex wants.
Keeping people in prisons might be just what the US prison industrial complex wants.
Not sure why you got downvoted here. Private prisons are very much a thing in the US and in my state.
Not to mention the Federal prison Industries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries Revenue $531,453,000 (2019) "Under current law, all physically able inmates who are not a security risk or have a health exception are required to work, either for UNICOR or at some other prison job.[4][12] Inmates earn from US$0.23 per hour up to a maximum of US$1.15 per hour, and all inmates with court-ordered financial obligations must use at least 50% of this UNICOR income to satisfy those debts"
And that is just one of them...on the federal level...not state.
Not to mention the Federal prison Industries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Industries Revenue $531,453,000 (2019) "Under current law, all physically able inmates who are not a security risk or have a health exception are required to work, either for UNICOR or at some other prison job.[4][12] Inmates earn from US$0.23 per hour up to a maximum of US$1.15 per hour, and all inmates with court-ordered financial obligations must use at least 50% of this UNICOR income to satisfy those debts"
And that is just one of them...on the federal level...not state.
>"Not sure why you got downvoted here"
Some patriots probably got offended.
Some patriots probably got offended.
Please don't unnecessarily bring politics into the discussion. (It wasn't me, I don't have enough karma to downvote.)
This is just too rich. I am not the one who brought politics here. This would be more properly directed to the people who start political topics. And there are plenty of these topics on HN.
Looking at this disproportional reaction it feels like we have stakeholders here.
Looking at this disproportional reaction it feels like we have stakeholders here.
Do you think prison reform is not a political topic?
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I don't think anyone has any idea how disorientating tech can be until they've witness this for themselves. Also how hostile and large a divide tech creates that the industry doesn't give a damn about (I'm looking at you, Material Design and your crap low contrast fonts and lack of clear clickable buttons that has resulted in more support calls from my aging parents than probably anything else).
Anyhow, a neighborhood homeless man and I became friends and I'd help him out with $$ and food and drink from time to time. We'd hang out and I get to hear stories of all the crazy shit he'd seen in the past 40 years in the neighborhood, from growing up through the civil rights era and seeing the city burn in 68, to the lines of people around the block waiting to buy crack at Rayful Emmonds grandmothers house. He'd been in and out of jail, run with gangs, the full nine yards. After getting hit by a drunk driver on his way to holdup a liquor store to get money to buy his new baby diapers, he'd ended up on the streets with nothing but his stories and a bum leg.
Along the way, he told me about his wife and children, his stint at the Navy shipyards in Virginia Beach, and his childhood in North Carolina. He told me about how one day he'd love to travel back to his childhood home town and see his mother, who he'd purchased his childhood home for with the proceeds from his successful dealings at the shipyards.
One day, he mentioned he'd gotten some money and wanted to send his mother flowers, but he couldn't remember what the address was. I asked if he remembered how to get to the house, and he said he did, so I grabbed my laptop, opened up Street View in the center of the town and asked him which way to go.
I've never experienced quite such a reaction in my life. This was black magic fuckery to him and he thought I was using some secret government technology. I explained to him the general principles of it, and he just didn't believe it. Incredulous wouldn't describe a tenth of his reaction.
That reaction wasn't anything compared to when we finally found his mothers house. He couldn't believe that he was looking at the house he grew up in, had purchased for his mother and that he'd not seen probably 30+ years. He teared up looking at it and got quite emotional. I offered to find her phone number so that he could call her, but it was too much for him at the time, and he waved it off.
He eventually got housing through a city program, and I lost touch with him as he stopped frequenting the neighborhood.
Old Dirty, if you're still out there, I miss your company and stories and hope you're doing well!
Anyhow, a neighborhood homeless man and I became friends and I'd help him out with $$ and food and drink from time to time. We'd hang out and I get to hear stories of all the crazy shit he'd seen in the past 40 years in the neighborhood, from growing up through the civil rights era and seeing the city burn in 68, to the lines of people around the block waiting to buy crack at Rayful Emmonds grandmothers house. He'd been in and out of jail, run with gangs, the full nine yards. After getting hit by a drunk driver on his way to holdup a liquor store to get money to buy his new baby diapers, he'd ended up on the streets with nothing but his stories and a bum leg.
Along the way, he told me about his wife and children, his stint at the Navy shipyards in Virginia Beach, and his childhood in North Carolina. He told me about how one day he'd love to travel back to his childhood home town and see his mother, who he'd purchased his childhood home for with the proceeds from his successful dealings at the shipyards.
One day, he mentioned he'd gotten some money and wanted to send his mother flowers, but he couldn't remember what the address was. I asked if he remembered how to get to the house, and he said he did, so I grabbed my laptop, opened up Street View in the center of the town and asked him which way to go.
I've never experienced quite such a reaction in my life. This was black magic fuckery to him and he thought I was using some secret government technology. I explained to him the general principles of it, and he just didn't believe it. Incredulous wouldn't describe a tenth of his reaction.
That reaction wasn't anything compared to when we finally found his mothers house. He couldn't believe that he was looking at the house he grew up in, had purchased for his mother and that he'd not seen probably 30+ years. He teared up looking at it and got quite emotional. I offered to find her phone number so that he could call her, but it was too much for him at the time, and he waved it off.
He eventually got housing through a city program, and I lost touch with him as he stopped frequenting the neighborhood.
Old Dirty, if you're still out there, I miss your company and stories and hope you're doing well!
This can also be a problem for homeless people. If you are homeless and digitally savvy, the internet and a tablet or smartphone or laptop or even library card can be huge, huge assets that make homelessness vastly less burdensome.
But for some homeless people, job hunting is a nightmare because they don't have the internet savvy and, on top of that, they don't own a laptop and they may not know they can get access to a computer at the library (at least when there isn't a pandemic on).
Kudos to her for taking the time to do this. I don't know how to solve this, though I run some websites and what not aimed at trying to provide useful info to homeless people and people at risk of homelessness and I advocate to whatever degree I can for trying to get smartphones and the like into the hands of homeless individuals and people at risk (and people with prison records are at risk if you can't infer the obvious just from reading these tweets).
But for some homeless people, job hunting is a nightmare because they don't have the internet savvy and, on top of that, they don't own a laptop and they may not know they can get access to a computer at the library (at least when there isn't a pandemic on).
Kudos to her for taking the time to do this. I don't know how to solve this, though I run some websites and what not aimed at trying to provide useful info to homeless people and people at risk of homelessness and I advocate to whatever degree I can for trying to get smartphones and the like into the hands of homeless individuals and people at risk (and people with prison records are at risk if you can't infer the obvious just from reading these tweets).
I've been going through something similar with my Mum recently. She's on the verge of homelessness and has a disability. In Australia, her job provider is supposed to help her find a job given her current situation. She has been there for nearly 4 year and no one there has been able to find her a job (I only just learned of this and have helped her to move from her current agency to another one that seems better equiped to help her)
But, because she has no income (she is left with about $40 a fortnight after government assistance) she has had to cut off her internet connection, phone connection, and her ageing laptop of nearly 10 years has also completely died.
Unfortunately, I didn't learn of this until just a few years ago, but even in that small gap of a few years between where she was able to still afford all of these vital services and bits of equipment and use them perfectly fine and by the time she couldn't, she grew completely disillusioned with technology and has an extremely difficult time in using even basic smart phones. On top of that, it is almost impossible for her to apply for jobs through this device. Trying to teach her how to write up a cover letter on the Google Docs Android app was impossible.
It has really opened my eyes and taught me to be a lot more patient and empathetic with people struggling with modern technology. It feels like a lot of these improvements are supposed to make our lives easier, for for a few, it does nothing but make it harder and I don't know how to solve this problem or if it even can be. Are these people just to be left behind?
But, because she has no income (she is left with about $40 a fortnight after government assistance) she has had to cut off her internet connection, phone connection, and her ageing laptop of nearly 10 years has also completely died.
Unfortunately, I didn't learn of this until just a few years ago, but even in that small gap of a few years between where she was able to still afford all of these vital services and bits of equipment and use them perfectly fine and by the time she couldn't, she grew completely disillusioned with technology and has an extremely difficult time in using even basic smart phones. On top of that, it is almost impossible for her to apply for jobs through this device. Trying to teach her how to write up a cover letter on the Google Docs Android app was impossible.
It has really opened my eyes and taught me to be a lot more patient and empathetic with people struggling with modern technology. It feels like a lot of these improvements are supposed to make our lives easier, for for a few, it does nothing but make it harder and I don't know how to solve this problem or if it even can be. Are these people just to be left behind?
It’s in fathomable that the government would put a person in jail for 30 years and dump them back into society without even a PowerPoint briefing on the state of the world.
Isn’t incarceration a two way street? If government takes away (for good reason or not) your personal freedom aren’t they liable for your well-being during that time? And more importantly, responsible for the person “their” system returns to society at large?
Isn’t incarceration a two way street? If government takes away (for good reason or not) your personal freedom aren’t they liable for your well-being during that time? And more importantly, responsible for the person “their” system returns to society at large?
Morally? It certainly seems like it.
Practically? If there is no accountability, no loop closure on the delivery of such a thing, then no.
Practically? If there is no accountability, no loop closure on the delivery of such a thing, then no.
My first thought is how the prison system failed him. Computer literacy is a fundamental job skill in the 21st century, one that's relatively easily and inexpensively taught. I'd expect computer literacy programs in any prison system built around rehabilitation.
While I was in federal prison (one year, just released months ago) I actually tried to setup a crash course that prepared inmates for the "real world" and teach basic skills. This is through a program in the federal prison system (BOP) called ACE - Adult Continuing Education.
I sat down and spoke with the manager of the program at the prison. She barely removed her eyes from her computer screen and when I was done proposing my idea she just shrugged and said "that's not something we want to invest time into." I then asked her if she thought these skills were more necessary today than yesterday and compared to 5 years ago - basically establishing that this is only going to get worse not better. She just repeated that "this isn't what the BOP wants to do."
It's worth mentioning what those ACE classes currently consist of. The ones I saw while I was in prison ranged from basic math/arithmetic (addition, multiplication, very basic algebra) to poetry and origami. Which is interesting because it would paint the picture that people in prison are dumb or not learning anything, whereas they actually are learning quite a lot since they have little else to occupy themselves with besides books - especially during COVID times (since we were essentially locked down the entire time during the pandemic while I was incarcerated)
I met many inmates that were learning complex math and physics, computer programming and I met some that had never seen the "real world" in any capacity with Bitcoin or other emerging technologies that had a decent grasp of how they operated from the various books they had read.
I sat down and spoke with the manager of the program at the prison. She barely removed her eyes from her computer screen and when I was done proposing my idea she just shrugged and said "that's not something we want to invest time into." I then asked her if she thought these skills were more necessary today than yesterday and compared to 5 years ago - basically establishing that this is only going to get worse not better. She just repeated that "this isn't what the BOP wants to do."
It's worth mentioning what those ACE classes currently consist of. The ones I saw while I was in prison ranged from basic math/arithmetic (addition, multiplication, very basic algebra) to poetry and origami. Which is interesting because it would paint the picture that people in prison are dumb or not learning anything, whereas they actually are learning quite a lot since they have little else to occupy themselves with besides books - especially during COVID times (since we were essentially locked down the entire time during the pandemic while I was incarcerated)
I met many inmates that were learning complex math and physics, computer programming and I met some that had never seen the "real world" in any capacity with Bitcoin or other emerging technologies that had a decent grasp of how they operated from the various books they had read.
If the goal for the prison system is to rehabilitate the inmates, then indeed it failed him. But if the goal of the prison system is to punish the inmates, then it has achieved its goal and even continue to punish him long after he served his time.
The problem is of course that you want both. First you want to punish them so they, and others, are not motivated to do such a crime again.
But at the same time, you want them to go out as a better person than they went in (else there is no point in releasing them).
Punishing people after their release is not benefitting anyone.
But at the same time, you want them to go out as a better person than they went in (else there is no point in releasing them).
Punishing people after their release is not benefitting anyone.
Ideally you want to lower recidivism. Giving people who were stealing or dealing drugs a reasonable chance of making a good living in a legal way reduces recidivism. Getting people with unstable homes and unstable lives counseling and training reduces recidivism. Helping them get jobs reduces recidivism. The state really has little to gain from punishment. There's keeping people who are a risk off the streets on one hand. There's rehabilitation and changing the circumstances of the offenders.
The interest in punishment is from politicians who want to appear "tough on crime" to their electorate. Those policies aren't tough on crime, though. They're tough on criminals in all the ways that lead to more crime in the end.
The interest in punishment is from politicians who want to appear "tough on crime" to their electorate. Those policies aren't tough on crime, though. They're tough on criminals in all the ways that lead to more crime in the end.
Dozens of studies show that punishment is barely a motivation.
The only way of making a society more secure is to prevent people stepping into the criminal world in the first place. Education, integration etc. And if they still do, as much effort must be taken to let them integrate back into society as soon and smooth as possible.
[deleted]
yep, 30 years is enough time to pursue several degrees, let alone basic skills. What facilities do US prisons provide!?
The US prison system isn't designed around rehabilitation, but around profit. Just like the US justice system isn't designed around justice, but around righteousness. The fact that us-amerian judges fund their own election campaigns underlines the absurdity, and yet it's just one facette in a reality that's going well beyond the satirical ideas spun towards the end of the last century.
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit, I don't want to waste anyones time. It's just hard to swallow the delta between ought and is.
>The fact that us-amerian judges fund their own election campaigns
Whether judges are elected or appointed varies by state and the states with appointed judges do better at some things but not others.
Whether judges are elected or appointed varies by state and the states with appointed judges do better at some things but not others.
I'm not an expert, but my impression is that most US prisons provide little in the way of true rehabilitation.
Ironically, while computer skills courses may be unavailable, mobile devices (with Internet service!) are increasingly-common contraband items in US prisons:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2020/04/19/will-cel...
Ironically, while computer skills courses may be unavailable, mobile devices (with Internet service!) are increasingly-common contraband items in US prisons:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/walterpavlo/2020/04/19/will-cel...
The US prison system did exactly what the US prison system is designed to do. It's never been a rehabilatory system and we will have to fight to improve it.
It's worth mentioning that this doesn't mean it's currently designed to be punitive. It's really just evolved into a system that extracts a very large amount of money via taxes and uses that money to pay various correctional staff and industries to deliver absurdly poor quality services and products. For them, it's a really sweet gig and they're pretty happy that the overall public is apathetic to the situation.
I disagree. In the US, the public also is pretty happy to lock people away for extended periods of time.
For the most part that's a product of lobbying to increase minimum sentences and overall increase the prison population, since that increases the number of correctional jobs and the sales of the various contracted companies that provide their products.
I was in federal prison until just 3 months ago I can safely say this is exactly what I saw while there.
I was in federal prison until just 3 months ago I can safely say this is exactly what I saw while there.
While I don't disagree (i was joking in my first comment :), I think that's a one dimensional point of view. The majority of people do not interact with the prison system at all and assume that everything is done correctly (if they consider it at all).
I don't think there is a concerted conscious profiteering effort and it's just "Tuesday" business for municipalities and contracted corps. I'd contend more that the emotional appeals for tough on crime laws and media crime porn drive the mentality of imprisonment in the US.
I don't think there is a concerted conscious profiteering effort and it's just "Tuesday" business for municipalities and contracted corps. I'd contend more that the emotional appeals for tough on crime laws and media crime porn drive the mentality of imprisonment in the US.
> I'd contend more that the emotional appeals for tough on crime laws and media crime porn drive the mentality of imprisonment in the US.
But those are produced by people who profit from the system as it is. People didn't just arrive at the cruelty level they are at, they were whipped to it, and countervailing opinions are shut out of "serious" discourse.
Note that I'm not talking about private prisons here, I'm talking about vendors, contractors, and the funders of politicians that need to preserve local human warehousing jobs.
But those are produced by people who profit from the system as it is. People didn't just arrive at the cruelty level they are at, they were whipped to it, and countervailing opinions are shut out of "serious" discourse.
Note that I'm not talking about private prisons here, I'm talking about vendors, contractors, and the funders of politicians that need to preserve local human warehousing jobs.
Indeed, and thank you for not wailing against private prisons only. Dealing with the system in any capacity one realizes that it is closed, deaf and completely lacking in accountability.
The author of the Tweet is from South Africa
I wrote a similar thread a while back while helping my 70-year old neighbour:
https://twitter.com/ianmiell/status/1299742361854054401
"""One example of the insanity:
"Enter mobile number to register" OK, 0793...
"You already have an account with that number"
"Enter mobile number to get recovery details" OK, 0793...
"You do not have an account with that number"
Turns out you have to put 44793..."""
https://twitter.com/ianmiell/status/1299742361854054401
"""One example of the insanity:
"Enter mobile number to register" OK, 0793...
"You already have an account with that number"
"Enter mobile number to get recovery details" OK, 0793...
"You do not have an account with that number"
Turns out you have to put 44793..."""
[deleted]
> Everything was hard--the icons & cursor, the touchpad, hovering over something for options, closing and opening tabs
This is part of what "accessibility" covers, it's not just providing alternative text for images. A11y also deals with overcoming cognitive barriers, for example people with ADD benefit from a clear, easy-to-follow hierarchy of information.
For this person (and many others) accessible means easy to learn, and easy to follow.
This is part of what "accessibility" covers, it's not just providing alternative text for images. A11y also deals with overcoming cognitive barriers, for example people with ADD benefit from a clear, easy-to-follow hierarchy of information.
For this person (and many others) accessible means easy to learn, and easy to follow.
I can't imagine that prison life is so disconnected from the rest of society; it certainly isn't in Europe.
The US prison system is all about punishment not rehabilitation.
Theres a very strong “lock them up and throw away the key” mentality in many Americans view of justice.
Theres a very strong “lock them up and throw away the key” mentality in many Americans view of justice.
The US prison system is about indifference and more like factory farming than inflicting punishment -- the negative effects are mostly a byproduct of high volume and costs.
I got really into this issue maybe two years ago, and it's been pretty sickening to observe. Things like multiple states denying surgeries based on alleged "one good eye" policies. Replacing in-person visits with virtual ones.
Sure, there's profit involved, of course. For example, there are pushes to get rid of prison libraries and their books and music and switch instead to tablet devices, so that the families of incarcerated people (those in prison might be making as little as literal pennies per hour) can be charged subscriptions by various companies. But even that is driven by costs involved in checking donated books for contraband. At the end of the day, we need to incarcerate fewer people for shorter periods of time -- and I'm not just talking about non-violent offenders, either.
The person in this twitter thread served 30 years. Let's start there.
I got really into this issue maybe two years ago, and it's been pretty sickening to observe. Things like multiple states denying surgeries based on alleged "one good eye" policies. Replacing in-person visits with virtual ones.
Sure, there's profit involved, of course. For example, there are pushes to get rid of prison libraries and their books and music and switch instead to tablet devices, so that the families of incarcerated people (those in prison might be making as little as literal pennies per hour) can be charged subscriptions by various companies. But even that is driven by costs involved in checking donated books for contraband. At the end of the day, we need to incarcerate fewer people for shorter periods of time -- and I'm not just talking about non-violent offenders, either.
The person in this twitter thread served 30 years. Let's start there.
Rehabilitation works for those handful of cases where a mother had to steal food to feed a baby, and wasn't a career criminal.
I don't have any hope nor interest in try to "rehabilitate" rapists, murderers or child molesters. I don't even want them locked up for life, that's a waste of money and isn't enough punishment. I want the problem solved, I want them to get the death penalty.
I don't have any hope nor interest in try to "rehabilitate" rapists, murderers or child molesters. I don't even want them locked up for life, that's a waste of money and isn't enough punishment. I want the problem solved, I want them to get the death penalty.
Giving prosecutors the ability to request the death penalty requires us to put our utmost trust in them to follow due process and ensure a fair trial for each and every defendant. I absolutely do not trust them with that responsibility - time and time again, we hear about corrupt district attorneys who care more about their campaigns and conviction rates than actually meting out justice. Look no further than the US's historically rich track record of wrongful execution, particularly when it comes to minorities.
What is the percentage of wrongful executions? And it says nothing about the pros and cons of the death penalty itself. We should always strive to improve the Justice system which should minimize any wrongful condemnation.
>particularly when it comes to minorities. Given how much they are so overrepresented in commiting crimes, I don't even know how you can minimize that beyond just keep improving the system, regardless of the sentence.
>particularly when it comes to minorities. Given how much they are so overrepresented in commiting crimes, I don't even know how you can minimize that beyond just keep improving the system, regardless of the sentence.
> What is the percentage of wrongful executions?
Anything above 0% is too much
Anything above 0% is too much
Depends on which prison in the US. Angola, in Lousiana, for example is pretty notorious for refusing medical care, recreation limited regularly, forced labor in the fields, etc.
Edit: She mentions "Corrlinks" which provides a sort of "email" like service to Federal prisons. So this person was in a US Federal Prison.
Edit: She mentions "Corrlinks" which provides a sort of "email" like service to Federal prisons. So this person was in a US Federal Prison.
I was just poking around the wiki for that place.
Pretty crazy.
Pretty crazy.
Aside: While we're on the subject of incarcerated education, please consider donating time or resources to your local incarcerated people.
The American Library Association has a good list of book donation programs here: https://libguides.ala.org/book-donations/bookstoprisons
After the pandemic subsides (whenever that may be), the Bureau of Prisons has a guide on how to help out the recently/incarcerated here: https://www.bop.gov/jobs/volunteer.jsp
Here's a good piece on how a volunteer can help save lives (maybe this can be you!): https://prisonwriters.com/prison-volunteers/
The American Library Association has a good list of book donation programs here: https://libguides.ala.org/book-donations/bookstoprisons
After the pandemic subsides (whenever that may be), the Bureau of Prisons has a guide on how to help out the recently/incarcerated here: https://www.bop.gov/jobs/volunteer.jsp
Here's a good piece on how a volunteer can help save lives (maybe this can be you!): https://prisonwriters.com/prison-volunteers/
I saw a documentary on the personality-testing industry recently. They did an interview with an older chap fresh out of prison who was attending public job search classes, who said that when he went in. computers were running software from the 1980s and upon getting out he had to learn all about the "Google world" from scratch. It made me realize how fortunate I was: not only had I been exposed to the Google world from the outside, but had I been in prison all that time I could probably acclimate myself to it fairly easily upon leaving. I'd be outraged at the things the Google world does, but I'd have a clear head and shoulders advantage navigating it over someone who did not have my proclivity for all things computer.
The Google-world guy stood out. I felt for him. The film's epilogue shows him successfully getting a job as a building supervisor, but what are we doing for people like him? Employment services in my state offer free computer courses to people seeking jobs, but is that enough? And are the services in other states more spotty?
The Google-world guy stood out. I felt for him. The film's epilogue shows him successfully getting a job as a building supervisor, but what are we doing for people like him? Employment services in my state offer free computer courses to people seeking jobs, but is that enough? And are the services in other states more spotty?
Can please you share the imdb link/name of the documentary?
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt14173880/
i believe that one
i believe that one
That's the one.
Thank you
"Persona: The Dark Truth Behind Personality Tests (2021)"
Exploring the unexpected origins of America's obsession with personality testing, this documentary takes a look at the profound ways that ideas about personality have formed the world around us.
"Persona: The Dark Truth Behind Personality Tests (2021)"
Exploring the unexpected origins of America's obsession with personality testing, this documentary takes a look at the profound ways that ideas about personality have formed the world around us.
While I agree that this is a huge failure of the prison system, I'm also convinced that it shouldn't take more than a month for an ex-convict to catch up with the average computer user. Most people I know are borderline computer illiterate. Even the educated ones.
Borderline computer illiterate is a low bar(and probably an accurate assessment of average ability), but how are they supposed to clear that bar when they're fully computer illiterate and maybe, if they're lucky, can get occasional informal tutoring from someone who is only borderline computer illiterate? Maybe a month of proper lessons would do it at least for some. However, as a degreed professional, I've spent about 25 years fruitlessly trying to explain to my dad in every conceivable way "where it goes when you save it" and what a file is, so I suspect this is a massive hurdle for a decent percent of the population. There's a reason so many people are borderline computer illiterate.
[deleted]
it sounds like this particular person did so and figured it out relatively quickly, based on the thread. the things being done were more complex than what some of my relatives can do.
30 years, so he would have went into prison in 1991. Wow, yeah, I can imagine getting out would have been a surreal experience.
I remember that one of Spider Robinson's Callahan's crosstime saloon stories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callahan%27s_Crosstime_Saloon) had a similar situation with a guy getting back from being a prisoner of war or in prison in solitary for a couple of decades and being in effect a stranded time traveler (somewhat fuzzy on the details as I read it probably about 40 years ago - ironically enough)
I also recall that there was a little fandom controversy at the time where people complained that it wasn't really a time travel story and what was this jerk Spider Robinson trying to pull anyway!
I also recall that there was a little fandom controversy at the time where people complained that it wasn't really a time travel story and what was this jerk Spider Robinson trying to pull anyway!
Somebody please identify this story!
Yes, it’s ”The time traveler”, first published in Analog, April 1974. Reprinted in the collection “Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon”, and in the meta-collection “The Callahan Chronicals”. Is shows how much cultural shift can take place in a decade: the protagonist is taken prisoner in 1963 and returns to a changed society in 1973. Highly recommended!
when you asked this question I figured I'd send an email to Spider Robinson and ask - his response:
----------------
your memory works better than mine. It took me awhile to dig out the memory of what was the second Callahan's Place story I ever sold. Since it had been over a year since my first sale, and I'd collected 14 rejection slips since, it's a happy memory, which always helps.
Yes, the story you remember was "The Time Traveler," if I'm remembering right. But the controversy part is just a bit of an exaggeration. I wish I could check my memory against Ben Bova's excellent one, but my recollection is, what actually happened was he got one or two letters complaining that that story was not science fiction. Ben wrote back to both that first of all, he felt it was, that science fiction did not necessarily have to contain machinery of any kind—just change—and concluded by saying, come on, you've got a complaint about one story out of the hundreds you've read here, and you threaten to cancel your subscription? You have that right, and I'm sorry you feel that way; have a nice day.
Then he told me privately that he'd checked, and nobody had canceled their subscription. But it made a great story, so we both retold it over the years.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. As Dizzy Gillespie said about Charlie Parker, no Ben, no me. In his last years, he used to tell me he was starting to feel like one of the last legionnaires still defending Fort Zindeneuf, and now it's my turn.
Thanks for reminding me what an uncannily lucky sumbitch I am and have been.
—Spider
-------------------
at the bottom he had the following inspirational quote
We like believing the best
because nothing needs to be done about it,
and the worst, because nothing can.
—James Richardson
----------------
your memory works better than mine. It took me awhile to dig out the memory of what was the second Callahan's Place story I ever sold. Since it had been over a year since my first sale, and I'd collected 14 rejection slips since, it's a happy memory, which always helps.
Yes, the story you remember was "The Time Traveler," if I'm remembering right. But the controversy part is just a bit of an exaggeration. I wish I could check my memory against Ben Bova's excellent one, but my recollection is, what actually happened was he got one or two letters complaining that that story was not science fiction. Ben wrote back to both that first of all, he felt it was, that science fiction did not necessarily have to contain machinery of any kind—just change—and concluded by saying, come on, you've got a complaint about one story out of the hundreds you've read here, and you threaten to cancel your subscription? You have that right, and I'm sorry you feel that way; have a nice day.
Then he told me privately that he'd checked, and nobody had canceled their subscription. But it made a great story, so we both retold it over the years.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. As Dizzy Gillespie said about Charlie Parker, no Ben, no me. In his last years, he used to tell me he was starting to feel like one of the last legionnaires still defending Fort Zindeneuf, and now it's my turn.
Thanks for reminding me what an uncannily lucky sumbitch I am and have been.
—Spider
-------------------
at the bottom he had the following inspirational quote
We like believing the best
because nothing needs to be done about it,
and the worst, because nothing can.
—James Richardson
I'm pretty sure it's just called The Time Traveler
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callahan%27s_Crosstime_Saloon#...
it says almost all these stories were published in Analog, that's where I remember the controversy over its lack of the more fanciful sort of time travel fans back then were used to took place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callahan%27s_Crosstime_Saloon#...
it says almost all these stories were published in Analog, that's where I remember the controversy over its lack of the more fanciful sort of time travel fans back then were used to took place.
To that point, I was thinking that.. in some countries, even if you are jailed for murder, after some time served, you may request and can be allowed to take some 'leave' (24/48h). Didn't he get the chance to take any such 'leaves' in the US? I honestly don't know US Justice system. Would there be the chance that his crime was so severe to not be allowed to get a leave at all for 30 years?
I grew up in the US and (unfortunately) this was the first time I'd heard of such a concept. I did some research and "prison furloughs" became a key political issue in the 1988 US presidential election [1]. The federal prison system now only allows non-emergency furloughs for inmates if they are within 2 years of their release/parole date, and who did not commit a violent crime.
Prison furlough programs existed in all 50 states in the 1980s, and "almost 10 percent of state and federal prisoners received a furlough in 1987". [2][3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_Door_(advertisement)
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/12/us/study-says-53000-got-p...
[3] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/05/13/willie-horton-...
Prison furlough programs existed in all 50 states in the 1980s, and "almost 10 percent of state and federal prisoners received a furlough in 1987". [2][3]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_Door_(advertisement)
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/12/us/study-says-53000-got-p...
[3] https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/05/13/willie-horton-...
"Didn't he get the chance to take any such 'leaves' in the US?"
Probably not. I'm sure some programs exist like that, but it's complicated. In the US, most prisoners are in State, not Federal prisons. Every state, and even every prison, has different programs and rules. Also, in general, US culture views prison as pure punishment and not rehabilitation.
Probably not. I'm sure some programs exist like that, but it's complicated. In the US, most prisoners are in State, not Federal prisons. Every state, and even every prison, has different programs and rules. Also, in general, US culture views prison as pure punishment and not rehabilitation.
Leaves from prison (felons) are not common in the U.S. Leaves from jail (misdemeanors) are more common (e.g., leave for work during the day, then back to jail after work).
There have been some cases in the US of violent criminals being given furlough and committing further violent crimes while out. This has tended to reduce furlough opportunities here.
From an American perspective that's like giving the lion at the zoo a 24 hour leave to stroll around the city. It's so obviously absurd almost nobody would ever think of it unprompted. Many of the higher security prisons here are brutal dangerous paces. Sentences are long, often lifelong. Surviving a 30 year sentence without committing further crimes in prison that add to your sentence isn't so easy. Anybody with significant time left on their 30 year sentence would be a fool not to flee if given a 24 hour leave. Some of the low security prisons do have some resources focused on rehabilitation. But a lot of the higher security ones where most serious/violent/drug convicts end up are essentially warehouses for storing people who can't legally be executed until they're old and feeble enough to be released "safely" as pensioners/disabled/homeless. There's a reason criminal justice reform is such a big deal. Much of the country wishes we could dispense with the warehousing and just execute them all. While another contingent is very much tired of being thrown into those warehouses to rot based on race/socioeconomic status/the size of their bag of weed or a variety of other relatively harmless infractions.
Twitter is such a horrible venue for a blog.
As a society we're just not being real about our digital divides. Your digital ability goes up and down in life, and the web HAS to be accessible to you at those lower points of ability:
While caring for (or just carrying) a child. After an injury or stroke that limits your mobility. Living with chronic conditions. Changing technology or losing access to your go-to tools. Traveling to areas with a digital divide in some way. And many more...
We've made the case for the for some sets differently abled people-- I'm hard pressed to find a developer who doesn't consider keyboard navigability for those who can't use a mouse-- but you need to rethink interactions at a base level and we're just getting started with that. There's a lot of work to do here.
While caring for (or just carrying) a child. After an injury or stroke that limits your mobility. Living with chronic conditions. Changing technology or losing access to your go-to tools. Traveling to areas with a digital divide in some way. And many more...
We've made the case for the for some sets differently abled people-- I'm hard pressed to find a developer who doesn't consider keyboard navigability for those who can't use a mouse-- but you need to rethink interactions at a base level and we're just getting started with that. There's a lot of work to do here.
I remember my grandfather asking me why the newspaper website went down when he pressed the up button and up when he pressed the down button. I had no answer. And it was the only thing keeping him not bored as he spent a year in American suburbs, away from the warmth of whole community he's lived with all his life. It's hard for us realize all the random things we've learned over the years to live in the digital era.
I'm guessing this was on a Mac. Apple calls it "Natural scroll direction". If so, go to the Apple menu -> System Preferences -> Mouse and uncheck the box labeled "scroll direction: Natural".
Parent did not write anything about a mouse.
Up/down arrow keys work like this on every notable browser, every notable platform. Up arrow makes the content go down.
Up/down arrow keys work like this on every notable browser, every notable platform. Up arrow makes the content go down.
~17 years ago when I was in high school, my senior project was teaching old folks how to use computers.
It was much harder than I expected. Clicking a mouse was something they just didn't understand - they used their whole hand! Had to get them to use just a finger. Many other concepts were difficult to convey as well.
I think things have changed a lot since then (we have drastically better widespread tech literacy now), but it was an enlightening experience.
It was much harder than I expected. Clicking a mouse was something they just didn't understand - they used their whole hand! Had to get them to use just a finger. Many other concepts were difficult to convey as well.
I think things have changed a lot since then (we have drastically better widespread tech literacy now), but it was an enlightening experience.
I taught a computer lab at a local university a few years before that and discovered through one unhappy encounter with an angry student a key attribute that I’d failed to apprehend previously.
This student wanted to know exactly what to do when he encountered an error. I showed him my thought process for how I’d work my way back to a good known state and he was enraged.
Computer literacy is in no small part a willingness to experiment and be unafraid of what can happen (or at least enough basic knowledge to know how to avoid the really sharp edges that can in fact cause harm).
It’s a very difficult thing to teach.
This student wanted to know exactly what to do when he encountered an error. I showed him my thought process for how I’d work my way back to a good known state and he was enraged.
Computer literacy is in no small part a willingness to experiment and be unafraid of what can happen (or at least enough basic knowledge to know how to avoid the really sharp edges that can in fact cause harm).
It’s a very difficult thing to teach.
The US government has gotten around its prohibition on “cruel and unusual punishment” in two ways. First, it outsourced the cruelty to private businesses, who are not prohibited in the same way. Second, in instances where it cannot be outsourced, they simply make their cruelty usual and commonplace, neatly skirting the requirement it be unusual.
The prison system is an example of both.
The prison system is an example of both.
Why did she get him a computer tough, it's the most complex machine there is to access the web. Just an iPhone or iPad would have been better. Children and old people usually fare better with these than with normal "computers".
After briefly reading the comments I decided to chime in a little bit.
First, 30 years on the inside...crazy. I don't think it is possible to put that in perspective. Cellphones were uncommon, the internet was still using "prodigy" and the likes, pagers were the "in thing". Forget trying to use the internet...these people have issues with the "number of decisions" in the grocery store (it is one of those areas where people quite literally freeze up, if you don't know feel free to look up the commissary options this person has had for 30 years). Nothing looks the same, not neighborhoods, cars, clothing, people... You have been staring at guards for the last 30 years and an PA announcement has told you when/where to move and when to eat. Every day has been on repeat...
Now...30 years has passed and they let you out. What do you do...nothing but choices and a nearly constant flood of situations and experiences which you don't fully understand. Every task is something new to learn. And if you ask for help you are likely going to need to explain why you don't understand this stuff which may cause those people who were willing to help to second guess themselves and/or judge you. You have nothing...assume your family/friends have mostly moved on (this happens even when you are not in prison often) and your only hope to have enough to get back on your feet is to fill out the mountains of forms required to get a portion of what you really need to live. Now imagine your only way to get those forms is to use the internet...it is very fortunate this person had a case worker who was willing to spend the time to help...many don't.
There is a non-zero amount of recidivism which is intentional. People get out and then decide the world moved on without them. They were better off not having choices or options they did not understand. Often, the hoops of parole are too much and they prefer to "top out" their time so they are not required to do things like keep a job which has paystubs (often you get paid way more under the table, as well as having bosses who don't undervalue your pay due to your criminal past), or find proper housing (halfway houses are required often for parole if you do not have someone who will vouch for you in a written letter). Not to mention that staying sober is hard at times, decide to get drunk on the wrong night or share a joint with someone and you are likely to face repercussions from your Parole officer.
It is a difficult situation. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the case manager. She very likely kept this person from either reoffending or worse killing themselves.
The programs on the inside are often not the best (depends on the state, program, and facility...some are private). If you think there is any way you can or would like to help in this situation maybe get in touch with some of the halfway houses or probation offices in your area. Your tech skills and abilities to navigate paperwork are much more valuable than you might understand. From there...you could look into possibly helping inside the prisons too (there may be other restrictions). Maybe even just look into mailing some books to the library there (last I checked they had to be shipped in by the vendor/bookstore). That book on Python may very well be the thing that changes their life...and possibly society.
First, 30 years on the inside...crazy. I don't think it is possible to put that in perspective. Cellphones were uncommon, the internet was still using "prodigy" and the likes, pagers were the "in thing". Forget trying to use the internet...these people have issues with the "number of decisions" in the grocery store (it is one of those areas where people quite literally freeze up, if you don't know feel free to look up the commissary options this person has had for 30 years). Nothing looks the same, not neighborhoods, cars, clothing, people... You have been staring at guards for the last 30 years and an PA announcement has told you when/where to move and when to eat. Every day has been on repeat...
Now...30 years has passed and they let you out. What do you do...nothing but choices and a nearly constant flood of situations and experiences which you don't fully understand. Every task is something new to learn. And if you ask for help you are likely going to need to explain why you don't understand this stuff which may cause those people who were willing to help to second guess themselves and/or judge you. You have nothing...assume your family/friends have mostly moved on (this happens even when you are not in prison often) and your only hope to have enough to get back on your feet is to fill out the mountains of forms required to get a portion of what you really need to live. Now imagine your only way to get those forms is to use the internet...it is very fortunate this person had a case worker who was willing to spend the time to help...many don't.
There is a non-zero amount of recidivism which is intentional. People get out and then decide the world moved on without them. They were better off not having choices or options they did not understand. Often, the hoops of parole are too much and they prefer to "top out" their time so they are not required to do things like keep a job which has paystubs (often you get paid way more under the table, as well as having bosses who don't undervalue your pay due to your criminal past), or find proper housing (halfway houses are required often for parole if you do not have someone who will vouch for you in a written letter). Not to mention that staying sober is hard at times, decide to get drunk on the wrong night or share a joint with someone and you are likely to face repercussions from your Parole officer.
It is a difficult situation. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the case manager. She very likely kept this person from either reoffending or worse killing themselves.
The programs on the inside are often not the best (depends on the state, program, and facility...some are private). If you think there is any way you can or would like to help in this situation maybe get in touch with some of the halfway houses or probation offices in your area. Your tech skills and abilities to navigate paperwork are much more valuable than you might understand. From there...you could look into possibly helping inside the prisons too (there may be other restrictions). Maybe even just look into mailing some books to the library there (last I checked they had to be shipped in by the vendor/bookstore). That book on Python may very well be the thing that changes their life...and possibly society.
This seems like an area that the USDS might be able to contribute to.
What is that for a shit country that cant prepare the prisoners for a live in the open without having to fall back into old patterns?
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Computer technology is naturally unusable.
If this person can learn all this so fast then our parents who ask how to put a file in an email or change their TV's input source for the 50th time, not making any attempt to retain the information because they know we'll be their crutch, have zero excuse. It's disgusting. Good on this guy.
all this rambling about bank systems and ATMs and stuff aside, this is a sad story about a guy locked up that did his time and never got any computer skills all these years and it's sad.
The digital world is its own prison with various wardens and cell blocks and so many rules that you will be kept in prison for breaking them without knowing.
In contrast, I am sure we all know some older people who were not in prisson for the past 30 years and still don't know how to write an email, what a zoom call is or when it's appropriate to double-click vs single click items on a computer.
I know people in their 50s who pretend that "they don't need this technology" or "I can just go to the bank if I need something". Sure, if you're in your 80s you might want to dodge most of the digital stuff. But in your 50s? You're gonna have to live with an increasing digitalization for multiple decades.
Rant: If you are not an IT person and need to work with Excel and PowerPoint for the next 20 years then ffs sit down and learn the in-depth tools and tricks in the tools over the span of two weekends.
I know people in their 50s who pretend that "they don't need this technology" or "I can just go to the bank if I need something". Sure, if you're in your 80s you might want to dodge most of the digital stuff. But in your 50s? You're gonna have to live with an increasing digitalization for multiple decades.
Rant: If you are not an IT person and need to work with Excel and PowerPoint for the next 20 years then ffs sit down and learn the in-depth tools and tricks in the tools over the span of two weekends.
I remember my first job in tech support where I'd have to walk 40-50 year old white-collar workers through basic tasks like opening files in folders, connecting to WiFi, resetting passwords, etc. I have no problem whatsoever helping people with that sort of thing when they truly need it, but it would always irk me when they'd just giggle and say things like "Oh, I'm just not a computer person!" This would blow my mind, like, could you imagine a carpenter having to constantly be told how to use a cordless drill and justify it with "Oh, I'm just not really a power tools person!" It's one thing to grumble about technology these days, but refusing to learn the basics of the thing you use to do your job is ridiculous.
That rant, wow. It really resonates deeply with me. People would rather cumulatively spend some 10000 hours yelling at Office for the rest of their lives, instead of spending 10 over the course of some evenings/weekends to brush up on the basics. Even from an immediate-more-important-priorities-perspective it almost doesn’t make sense to me.
I think computer geeks tend not to recall how many hard-won insights and how much time it took for them to reach the point where learning "the basics" of MS Office would only take ten hours of study & practice. We think it's easy because we're building on decent-to-good mental models of how computers & software & networks operate.
Normal people don't have those, and every second of the thousands of hours it'd take to gain them would be miserable for them. Not everyone enjoys this crap. Most aren't born with the kind of good abstract and/or spatial reasoning abilities that makes this stuff relatively easy to figure out, either.
Normal people don't have those, and every second of the thousands of hours it'd take to gain them would be miserable for them. Not everyone enjoys this crap. Most aren't born with the kind of good abstract and/or spatial reasoning abilities that makes this stuff relatively easy to figure out, either.
Will brushing up help when Microsoft moves all the menus in the next edition? How about when they add in new errors and make File Explorer not return correct results and Windows Search just searches Bing instead of your computer? Or when they add stuff like “you aren’t allowed to attach that file to an email. It’s because it’s open in Word, but we’re not telling you that. Yes, we know this only happens in Outlook and not Gmail.” Its Office’s fault that everyone hates it.
Microsoft moves the menus in office at most once a decade. They just kept adding onto the Office 95 menus for twelve years, then they introduced ribbons, now 13 years later they move away from ribbons.
They aren't some SaaS company that moves things for fun
They aren't some SaaS company that moves things for fun
All of which largely became unimportant when they introduced the "Tell me what you want to do" search box to Office programs. Blessed be its name.
Anecdote: As a young intern at a German bank I was sent to talk to an older colleague (probably in his 50s, no idea for how long he already works for the bank). I needed him to look up some account number or ID in a data export he had.
1. He opened the data export in Excel.
2. I told him the number for which I needed some additional information.
3. He started scrooling in this 1k + entries Excel file.
4. …
5. I ask: Can you press CTRL + F and type in the number?
6. …
1. He opened the data export in Excel.
2. I told him the number for which I needed some additional information.
3. He started scrooling in this 1k + entries Excel file.
4. …
5. I ask: Can you press CTRL + F and type in the number?
6. …
Related to this: just how easy is powerful software meant to be?
People who don't know how to drive don't blame it on cars.
People who don't know how to drive don't blame it on cars.
It's fractal, I see this even in the tech industry itself - people are reluctant to sit down with a manual for an hour to figure out how some software (or device) works, and prefer to forever call it "too complicated to use", just because they couldn't grok it in 30 seconds.
The flip side of this is that interfaces are changing constantly. As soon as I've committed something to muscle memory, a forced app update will overhaul a UI and I need to relearn where to find basic commands. When compounded by the hundreds of programs I use across multiple OS's and platforms, I get used to just assuming that interfaces are and features constantly in flux. This means that I invest less in deeply learning any specific tool.
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I'm a software engineer yet I don't do online banking (I literally "just go to the bank if I need something"). I don't consider myself a "luddite", I just don't see the advantage over traditional "offline banking". Same with shopping and all the other little nuisances of daily life.
I would imagine you do understand the advantage of 30 seconds of time from anywhere in the world versus a 20-60min round trip to the bank.
I imagine there are other reasons you value than time and space convenience. Why do you feel the physical trip is more valuable?
I imagine there are other reasons you value than time and space convenience. Why do you feel the physical trip is more valuable?
Not OP, but my bank keeps pushing me to get their app to deposit checks. My phone doesn't do apps and I don't feel like taking up space on my tablet. Besides, there's a branch with a drive-through three minutes away from my house and another one a block away from work, so it's not that much time or travel and I get to talk to somebody outside of home or work for a few minutes. (Even if some of that time is spent declining their suggestion to get the app.)
Wait, your bank's drive-through is staffed? Every drive-through at a bank I've seen is just an ATM.
Yeah, the ones here have multiple lanes with pneumatic tubes to transfer stuff to and from cars, and one of the tellers wears a headset like a fast food drive through. When a car pulls up, they step away from the counter and serve the drive-through window, often multiplexing to assist multiple cars. It's kind of interesting to watch, and can be (or at least feel) more efficient than going inside.
They typically only staff the drive-through when the bank lobby is also open, or a half-hour later. One of the lanes will also usually have an ATM and a dropbox for after-hours service.
They typically only staff the drive-through when the bank lobby is also open, or a half-hour later. One of the lanes will also usually have an ATM and a dropbox for after-hours service.
TD Banks drive-throughs are staffed. I recently had to get something notarized and it was good to be able to do it without going in to the bank.
I have to interact with my bank maybe twice in a year, and rarely do I have to show up in person. Speaking over the phone works just fine ;) In contrast I have to show up at dentist or hairdresser appointments in person, and I don't consider this "wasted time" either.
I switched to cutting my own hair (and modifying my hairstyle slightly to make that easier) exactly because of the time wasted sitting in the lobby. I don't mind the value-added time (when the hair is actually being cut/styled), but the non-value-added time was too high for me.
I switched dentists for a similar reason; prior dentist kept a buffer of patients waiting to optimize their throughput. I had a dental appointment yesterday [at the newer place] and I was annoyed that I arrived 15 minutes early, because I know they make it a point to bring patients in exactly on time. Sure enough, 2:00 hits and I get called back.
I switched dentists for a similar reason; prior dentist kept a buffer of patients waiting to optimize their throughput. I had a dental appointment yesterday [at the newer place] and I was annoyed that I arrived 15 minutes early, because I know they make it a point to bring patients in exactly on time. Sure enough, 2:00 hits and I get called back.
how do you check your balance or transaction ? you only do that over the phone ?
I check the balance when I'm getting cash from an ATM. Transaction logs are sent by mail or I can print them at service machines. Really people, it's not that complicated, it worked before online banking was invented after all ;) I'm not sure if all those services (like the physical mail thing) are available to new customers though, I think those are nudged heavily to use an online account.
I only need cash for maybe once a month. Transaction logs sent by mail are way too slow.
Yea that way much slower and much less convenient compared to online banking.
Yea that way much slower and much less convenient compared to online banking.
I haven't gotten cash in over a year and I'll only need to get some more at some point over the next month or so because I was in a store whose credit card system was down.
About the only thing I'd do with a bank in person (other than ATMs) would be either special transactions--much of which you can handle over the phone or on-line these days--or if I still had to deposit sheafs of checks like I did when I had a business years ago. (Though I assume these days most people would pay digitally in some manner.)
I've observed over the past year that even brokerages and the like that pretty much used to require going into a branch have discovered that's actually not necessary.
I don't care so much about the speed of transaction logs but that I can access my records, pay bills, transfer money, etc. with a few clicks.
About the only thing I'd do with a bank in person (other than ATMs) would be either special transactions--much of which you can handle over the phone or on-line these days--or if I still had to deposit sheafs of checks like I did when I had a business years ago. (Though I assume these days most people would pay digitally in some manner.)
I've observed over the past year that even brokerages and the like that pretty much used to require going into a branch have discovered that's actually not necessary.
I don't care so much about the speed of transaction logs but that I can access my records, pay bills, transfer money, etc. with a few clicks.
I cannot speak for him but kind of understand. Obviously depends on what is it you want to do. You go to the bank and express what you need in simple speech to another human, who handles everything. Depending on the bank, a journey to do the same on web/app may be less preferable, especially if handle a lot of mental load during the day.
I wonder what requests are being made - for myself the entirety of what I do in a bank is moving money from one account into another, and that is way easier online than trying to get a human to understand exactly what I want.
Getting a human to change over a bunch of direct debits from one account to another is way better than doing it myself online.
What country do you live in?
Here in the UK, the only time I've needed to step into a bank in the last 10 years is to have a meeting about my mortgage. Our online banking services are so good there's literally no reason to have brick-and-mortor banks for day-to-day tasks.
For me, not having to travel to a bank and wait in a queue to do basic tasks such as transferring money is such an advantage.
Here in the UK, the only time I've needed to step into a bank in the last 10 years is to have a meeting about my mortgage. Our online banking services are so good there's literally no reason to have brick-and-mortor banks for day-to-day tasks.
For me, not having to travel to a bank and wait in a queue to do basic tasks such as transferring money is such an advantage.
Also on the flip side, our in person banking services are rather poor. I dread when there's something I need in person in the bank, because the branch only opens 10-4 M-F with a large break for lunch, meaning I need to take off work time to do it, and it's full of people who somehow apparently still manage to do their banking primarily in branch despite that.
Why then the huge queues on certain days? It could be luddites asking to withdraw their pension payments, or of course it could be business owners needing to deposit cash takings, or getting till floats for the day's trading. While I personally am in the same position as you, I feel that banks are listening to this kind of comment and shutting up physical stores.
Some version of this meme[0] has been circulating since before memes were a thing. I remember the Public School IT guy cracking a joke about packing heat in case the copier tried something funny (which sets a lower bound for the age of this joke because you haven't been able to pack heat in a school in three decades and haven't been able to crack that joke in a school in two).
[0]https://i.imgur.com/6wbgy2L.jpeg
[0]https://i.imgur.com/6wbgy2L.jpeg
I'm about to wire up some doorbells in our house and my wife can't for the life of her understand why we didn't simply buy, "one of those wireless ones." It's because the wired ones just work and always will just work and never don't work. No batteries. No internet. No computer chips. Etc, etc.
One cloud-based solution for opening garage doors, myQ, was offline for a few hours recently. People on Twitter were claiming, in all apparent sincerity, they had to literally break into their own homes.
I have this same predilection and I have thought a lot about it and I am pretty confident I know where this comes from for me:
When I was young, after opening my first checking account, I fat-fingered a transfer from checking to savings online and the bank software interpreted this as me trying to transfer more than I had, so it happily proceeded to give me a large cash advance and then charge me $75 for the trouble, and another $35 for the NSF fee.
Now, maybe because I work in software, and maybe even moreso because I have literally written checking account software - I do not use online or mobile apps for non-trivial banking things. I call a person. Or I walk up to a person. I verify everything they are doing before they do it, and by acting as my agent during more complicated tasks they assume liability if they fat-finger something or mess something up (so far).
For the curious: the online form had separate inputs for dollars and cents, and some JS regex removed punctuation marks. So when I typed "1,0,period, 0, 0", instead of trying to transfer $10, it transferred $1000. I absolutely breezed through the "verify the amount step".
When I was young, after opening my first checking account, I fat-fingered a transfer from checking to savings online and the bank software interpreted this as me trying to transfer more than I had, so it happily proceeded to give me a large cash advance and then charge me $75 for the trouble, and another $35 for the NSF fee.
Now, maybe because I work in software, and maybe even moreso because I have literally written checking account software - I do not use online or mobile apps for non-trivial banking things. I call a person. Or I walk up to a person. I verify everything they are doing before they do it, and by acting as my agent during more complicated tasks they assume liability if they fat-finger something or mess something up (so far).
For the curious: the online form had separate inputs for dollars and cents, and some JS regex removed punctuation marks. So when I typed "1,0,period, 0, 0", instead of trying to transfer $10, it transferred $1000. I absolutely breezed through the "verify the amount step".
I hate, hate, hate when online forms do this. I almost accidentally bought a $500 gift card yesterday while trying to buy a $5.00 one because this exact same thing happened.
It would have been nice to have a notice pop up when they dropped the decimal, the same way so many forms do for the "invalid character" in my last name. (But I have no strong feelings on the subject whatsoever.)
It would have been nice to have a notice pop up when they dropped the decimal, the same way so many forms do for the "invalid character" in my last name. (But I have no strong feelings on the subject whatsoever.)
Glad another software guy saying this. Digital infrastructure as how it now has no integrity.
I prefer going to bank if I have time.
Even the largest bank like Feds can have 3 trillion dollars operation error. https://thespeakernewsjournal.com/us/bank-wires-worth-trilli...
Knowing what I know and the kind of security that is in online banking does not bring any confidence in me.
I prefer going to bank if I have time.
Even the largest bank like Feds can have 3 trillion dollars operation error. https://thespeakernewsjournal.com/us/bank-wires-worth-trilli...
Knowing what I know and the kind of security that is in online banking does not bring any confidence in me.
Why do you think the in person operations are less likely to make errors?
I mean, go ahead and do what you want, but if checking recent transactions makes sense for online banking, it probably makes sense for offline banking too.
I mean, go ahead and do what you want, but if checking recent transactions makes sense for online banking, it probably makes sense for offline banking too.
If I make an error, I eat it. If the banker makes an error, they eat it, or at least you have some ground to stand on.
The app for my bank account lets me view balances (and some other info), transfer funds between my subaccounts (for free), and deposit checks.
There's not functionality in there to shoot myself in the foot.
There's not functionality in there to shoot myself in the foot.
You are right. Most security are really depending on banks whether they operate with integrity and your relationship with them. For security get to know your banker. And I wouldn't recommend any of large banks. Local credit union and small bank with good balance sheet are better bet.
Budgeting using a tool like YNAB has allowed me to manage monthly funds more effectively, pay off debts faster, and save up more quickly for the things I want to buy. It's possible to use it by inputting all your receipts in manually but it's such a time sink. Automatic importing let's me see exactly where my funds are and budget quickly in a few minutes at the start of my day. When cards are not importing correctly it's such a difference importing stuff manually.
As another example with online banking switching banks effectively becomes zero friction. When Ally slashed rates it took a couple days to move nearly all funds out to a savings account with a much better rate.
Not to mention nearly all brick and mortar stores have savings account rates that are effectively zero. My first interest payment when I was a new Ally customer was basically what I got the entire ten year period I was at bank of america
As another example with online banking switching banks effectively becomes zero friction. When Ally slashed rates it took a couple days to move nearly all funds out to a savings account with a much better rate.
Not to mention nearly all brick and mortar stores have savings account rates that are effectively zero. My first interest payment when I was a new Ally customer was basically what I got the entire ten year period I was at bank of america
That's good for you, but it sounds like you are spending way more time managing finances online, than I do offline ;) I have an average weekly budget that I keep track of in my head, and that's it. That's also the reason why I prefer paying in cash. Easier to keep track of the outgoing money.
In the US atleast if you're making cash payments you are subsidizing all credit card and debit card transactions. I end up at the end of the year with hundreds of dollars (often times over a thousand if I was awarded a bonus for a new card) returned back to me in cash back. If I convert to miles they are worth even more. I never use cash anywhere that accepts cards.
Online banking also makes it very easy to manage my cards to ensure I'm never paying interest since the first interest payment usually totally eats up any savings from cash back.
Online banking also makes it very easy to manage my cards to ensure I'm never paying interest since the first interest payment usually totally eats up any savings from cash back.
> Easier to keep track of the outgoing money.
It definitely is not. How is keeping track of random cash purchases in your head easier than a computer doing it for you automatically and instantly?
It definitely is not. How is keeping track of random cash purchases in your head easier than a computer doing it for you automatically and instantly?
Ok, technically I don't keep track of it in my head, but in my pocket. I start with a given amount of Euros in my pocket. Each purchase reduces that amount. If I want to check my current balance I reach into my pocket and see how much money is left. Checking this against the current date gives me a rough idea if I'm over- or under-budget.
But how do you sell your purchase data for a 1% discount this way?
A few:
- being able to mange banking while traveling internationally (or to a state/province that does't have a branch)
- 30 second transfers between accounts (or to other banks)
- few minutes to open a new account
- see posted (and pending) charges within a day or two instead of a month (I regularly import for my budgeting software)
I'm a developer and actually do consider myself a little bit of a luddite. But online banking is helpful to me over traditional banking.
- being able to mange banking while traveling internationally (or to a state/province that does't have a branch)
- 30 second transfers between accounts (or to other banks)
- few minutes to open a new account
- see posted (and pending) charges within a day or two instead of a month (I regularly import for my budgeting software)
I'm a developer and actually do consider myself a little bit of a luddite. But online banking is helpful to me over traditional banking.
Open an account in minutes? How many accounts do you use per month? I have had six in 49 years. Only the first and last of your list seem very useful to me.
Not many, but I switched banks two months ago and doing it online made it trivial.
I didn’t say each point was of equal value or frequency. I was just trying to list some benefits for someone that asked.
I didn’t say each point was of equal value or frequency. I was just trying to list some benefits for someone that asked.
I do prefer online-first, but I do miss being able to go to the bank. Self-service is great right up until it isn't. If I walk into the bank with a question, there's a near-certain chance I'll walk out with an answer. Instead of clicking around progressively darker corners of the site, I'll just stand at the counter until the answer comes to me.
It sounds "so karen", but it's very difficult to ask for a manager online, and very difficult to refuse in-person.
It sounds "so karen", but it's very difficult to ask for a manager online, and very difficult to refuse in-person.
As someone who has never really done "offline banking", I don't really understand how this works? Do you maintain your own ledger of all your accounts and their balances? Or are you driving over to the bank to check on things once or twice a month? If you have to transfer between accounts, do you go to one bank, get a check, then go to another bank? And this means you're entirely excluded from low-cost banks that don't have branches?
Honestly this is kind of blowing my mind. I've only been to the bank one time in probably a decade, and it was when I needed a $30k check to buy a car. Even my mortgage was done mostly over email (though they did send a guy out to have me sign paperwork.)
Honestly this is kind of blowing my mind. I've only been to the bank one time in probably a decade, and it was when I needed a $30k check to buy a car. Even my mortgage was done mostly over email (though they did send a guy out to have me sign paperwork.)
You get paper statements. Yes, you keep a ledger (ye olde "checkbook") and you write checks, use your debit card or get cash.
(No, I no longer do this. I'm just old enough to remember a time before online banking existed when the hot new thing was being able to check your balance via the automated phone system.)
(No, I no longer do this. I'm just old enough to remember a time before online banking existed when the hot new thing was being able to check your balance via the automated phone system.)
Honestly, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not :) But in case not: I have one account at one bank. I think there's a monthly fee on the account, but TBH I don't know how much, in any case it's not nearly enough to consider changing to other banks.
Recurring payments (e.g. rent, internet, power etc...) are handled through automatic orders which I had setup once. For the very rare cases where I need to pay a bill "manually" there are service machines in the branch office's lobby, which is about 5 minutes walking distance from my home.
Recurring payments (e.g. rent, internet, power etc...) are handled through automatic orders which I had setup once. For the very rare cases where I need to pay a bill "manually" there are service machines in the branch office's lobby, which is about 5 minutes walking distance from my home.
Not at all trolling :). Your setup sounds like it would be unusual in my spheres, where most people have probably close to a dozen different accounts (credit cards, retirement accounts, investments, mortgages, etc.) Online banking is very convenient for managing all this info.
Increasingly banks are reducing the ability to do that.
Here in Australia most banks have closed down branches in many smaller communities over the last 20 years.
Many of the 'standard' accounts that people have either only one in-branch visit per month, or none at all - and charge a fee for it.
Credit Unions and Building Societies are not much better, if at all.
There's also a growing number of online-only banks which don't have any physical branches, and all your interaction with them is online or over the phone.
Here in Australia most banks have closed down branches in many smaller communities over the last 20 years.
Many of the 'standard' accounts that people have either only one in-branch visit per month, or none at all - and charge a fee for it.
Credit Unions and Building Societies are not much better, if at all.
There's also a growing number of online-only banks which don't have any physical branches, and all your interaction with them is online or over the phone.
What? None of the big 4 banks in Australia charge you for going into a branch?
> I just don't see the advantage over traditional "offline banking".
You must live somewhere with an extremely temperate climate.
SUBTEXT: If you live somewhere with things like "snow" or "ice" or "Winter Storms" you'll change your tune once you begin to seriously worry how slowly you'd die after you break your hip on a sidewalk that's more snow-covered ice than concrete.
You must live somewhere with an extremely temperate climate.
SUBTEXT: If you live somewhere with things like "snow" or "ice" or "Winter Storms" you'll change your tune once you begin to seriously worry how slowly you'd die after you break your hip on a sidewalk that's more snow-covered ice than concrete.
Banks around me are swapping tellers for atms. Like literally no way to talk to anyone inside.
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I also prefer to go to the bank. I got my issue solved just by giving my id and wait 10m.
On the phone they couldn't even understand what I'm talking, ton of a security questions... I gave up.
I tried online and had some issues. Some code didn't work even if I had it saved.
Physical much more efficient. I can just relax 10m and get my things done just by saying 1 sentence
On the phone they couldn't even understand what I'm talking, ton of a security questions... I gave up.
I tried online and had some issues. Some code didn't work even if I had it saved.
Physical much more efficient. I can just relax 10m and get my things done just by saying 1 sentence
My wife teaches basic computer skills to older people (think 65+). I hear her teaching sometimes, and I find it remarkable what "basic" actually means to these people. She takes a lot of pride when her students are able to reply to an email, or find content and services online.
>Rant: If you are not an IT person and need to work with Excel and PowerPoint for the next 20 years then ffs sit down and learn the in-depth tools and tricks in the tools over the span of two weekends.
Until the IT people decide to change technologies on you because we do it so often to ourselves.
Except Excel. I'm pretty sure that's immortal.
Until the IT people decide to change technologies on you because we do it so often to ourselves.
Except Excel. I'm pretty sure that's immortal.
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>ffs sit down and learn the in-depth tools and tricks in the tools over the span of two weekends
Even IT people don't know their tools as much as I'd like them to. Taking time out like this, to get to know the tools, is a worthy effort for all.
Even IT people don't know their tools as much as I'd like them to. Taking time out like this, to get to know the tools, is a worthy effort for all.
Very few tools designed today have any features that facilitate learning. Developers don't understand how learning works and don't really care. Operating systems mostly washed their hands of this issue as well. It's a mess.
I agree. Jetbrains did well with their IDE I think, they show context aware suggestions often, but in a non-obtrusive way. This is effective because the information is there when you need it, not when you have no idea what to do with it.
True. There are just too many.
I should still improve my knowledge of git, gradle, intelij, various command line tools, docker and so on.
That by itself isn't to much but all this stuff comes on top of just staying up to date with the plattform you are working on and learning the next framework or library which you immediately need. Looking at you, android and your yearly updates, Kotlin, and a dozen jetpack libraries.
I should still improve my knowledge of git, gradle, intelij, various command line tools, docker and so on.
That by itself isn't to much but all this stuff comes on top of just staying up to date with the plattform you are working on and learning the next framework or library which you immediately need. Looking at you, android and your yearly updates, Kotlin, and a dozen jetpack libraries.
I get that, there's too much and changes too often. But there are cases where going a little deeper improves productivity a lot. Where I work we're assigned to projects that last at least a couple of years, so it pays off to spend some time learning the tools.
>I know people in their 50s who pretend that "they don't need this technology" or "I can just go to the bank if I need something". Sure, if you're in your 80s you might want to dodge most of the digital stuff. But in your 50s? You're gonna have to live with an increasing digitalization for multiple decades.
I'm in early 20s and I almost never used smartphone nor I'm not about to get one
I'm SE.
I'm in early 20s and I almost never used smartphone nor I'm not about to get one
I'm SE.
It seems to be ramping up now. It was only 4 years ago that my bank drastically cut the number of "real people" you can talk to at the bank, for example.
>You're gonna have to live with an increasing digitalization for multiple decades.
Technology exists for people, not the other way around.
Technology exists for people, not the other way around.
If you were in your 50s in the 90s I could understand avoiding technology. I have some sympathy for those in their 90s who had retired before the 1990s, but in the late 1990s Terry Wogan (b 1938) and his producer Paul Walters (b1947), with a breakfast radio show reaching 20% of the UK and aimed at fairly old people, showing that it wasn't too late for people their age to learn computing and send emails, watch webcams, etc.
If you're a boomer, you were in your 40s when windows 95 came out, and internet was common in average households in your 50s - no excuse.
For prisoners who were incarcerated, surely the rehabilitation and release process educates on basic information age technology like going to a library and using a computer to access public services
If you're a boomer, you were in your 40s when windows 95 came out, and internet was common in average households in your 50s - no excuse.
For prisoners who were incarcerated, surely the rehabilitation and release process educates on basic information age technology like going to a library and using a computer to access public services
sandworm101(1)
This long form Twitter stuff is so miserable. This seems like an interesting story, but I couldn’t read past the second segment.
And no, Threader doesn’t solve it or help (even taking for granted the extremely unlikely assumption that I was willing to migrate the thread to another service and navigate to that other service just to read it).
This is interesting in conjunction with the story itself, a man having a hard time adjusting to digital interfaces.
So much of it is caused by the abject poorness of digital interfaces foisted on us that we just accept and stumble through.
And no, Threader doesn’t solve it or help (even taking for granted the extremely unlikely assumption that I was willing to migrate the thread to another service and navigate to that other service just to read it).
This is interesting in conjunction with the story itself, a man having a hard time adjusting to digital interfaces.
So much of it is caused by the abject poorness of digital interfaces foisted on us that we just accept and stumble through.
A few things, it is astounding but believable that when people are released they enter a world that is entirely unknown to them. Not only technology but their relationships and neighborhoods are completely different.
In addition,They have no reliable way of getting back on their feet. They usually have zero money, no housing and no job - and there is why you have high recidivism rates. Not only that, but no one wants to hire justice involved individuals, even though significant tax credits are available for doing so - Walmart for example, takes extreme advantage of these.
The training programs in prisons will train someone up to a certification, but fall short of letting them get that certification. People have completed their GED maybe 5 times inside serving sentences at different times because doing so can reduce their sentence, it doesn’t help them in any other way.
Without the ability to access training for in demand skills, many of these individuals get temp service jobs as flagged for construction for example. Doesn’t make sense to me that we want to rehab people yet minimal opportunities inside are provided to break the cycle.
Realize this. People serve a sent and then they are eligible for parole. Many people opt to serve their parole inside, rather than outside. I’ve been told they feel it is easier inside than out.