How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?(permaculture.co.uk)
permaculture.co.uk
How do plants extract nutrients from the ground?
https://www.permaculture.co.uk/articles/how-plants-extract-nutrients
58 comments
As someone who's done a fair bit of indoor gardening, including hydroponics I have to vouch for the video. Oxygen in the root zone is absolutely critical. Common potting mixes are almost universal terrible. Far too much rotting organic matter.
These days I do all my gardening in a 50/50% volumetric mixture of perlite and coco coir (buffered with calcium and magnesium). With a small amount of pH adjusted hydroponic nutrient and a watering can, the results you can achieve are just incredible, absolutely no comparison. Plus it's completely pest free so you aren't dragging in mite eggs, and fungus gnats.
Never using potting soil again, and anybody still using it should really reconsider. It's insanely counter-intuitive just how well plants can grow in something as inorganic as perlite. It just doesn't look like it should work.
These days I do all my gardening in a 50/50% volumetric mixture of perlite and coco coir (buffered with calcium and magnesium). With a small amount of pH adjusted hydroponic nutrient and a watering can, the results you can achieve are just incredible, absolutely no comparison. Plus it's completely pest free so you aren't dragging in mite eggs, and fungus gnats.
Never using potting soil again, and anybody still using it should really reconsider. It's insanely counter-intuitive just how well plants can grow in something as inorganic as perlite. It just doesn't look like it should work.
Thanks for this. I'm going to do this with all my new indoor plants. I sort of gave up on em because they constantly have issues with the supplied "soil"
Just remember that coir and perlite are non-nutritious which means you have to fertigate (water with a weak fertilizer solution).
A generic one/two part hydroponic fertilizer is sufficient for house plants. There's some coco coir specific ones but I usually water with a standard hydroponic mix at something like 50-70% of the manufacturer recommended concentration and every few waterings I'll do a flush with plain water (this stops fertilizer salts from building up).
I also recommend having calmag nutrient on hand, you can use it to buffer raw coco coir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQi8AMMIyyA and deficiencies are rather common.
It sounds complicated but it's super forgiving, zero mess, zero bugs, and plants absolutely thrive it in it. Oh and coco coir comes as pressed bricks which makes it convenient to store.
A generic one/two part hydroponic fertilizer is sufficient for house plants. There's some coco coir specific ones but I usually water with a standard hydroponic mix at something like 50-70% of the manufacturer recommended concentration and every few waterings I'll do a flush with plain water (this stops fertilizer salts from building up).
I also recommend having calmag nutrient on hand, you can use it to buffer raw coco coir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQi8AMMIyyA and deficiencies are rather common.
It sounds complicated but it's super forgiving, zero mess, zero bugs, and plants absolutely thrive it in it. Oh and coco coir comes as pressed bricks which makes it convenient to store.
>He uses knowledge from the agricultural industry instead of the "organic" approach.
I can't help but wonder if his knowledge applies specifically to cases where chemicals like fungicide are used. There are quite a few species of soil fungus that are beneficial to plants, including root protection, but these can be wiped out by fungicides, leaving a blank slate for harmful fungus and other pests to take hold. So it would make sense that if there were no beneficial fungus present, then organic matter would be a rot threat.
I can't help but wonder if his knowledge applies specifically to cases where chemicals like fungicide are used. There are quite a few species of soil fungus that are beneficial to plants, including root protection, but these can be wiped out by fungicides, leaving a blank slate for harmful fungus and other pests to take hold. So it would make sense that if there were no beneficial fungus present, then organic matter would be a rot threat.
This conversation is simply more evidence that we conflate meadow/prairie plant behavior with woodland plant behavior. Since permaculturists are generally growing bushes and trees common to successional forest biomes, to an extent both can be right. The expected ratios of nitrogen in these two biomes and the ratios of fungi to bacteria differ by at least an order of magnitude, so of course strategies should differ as well.
With the exception of orchardists (whom some of us think doing everything wrong that you possibly can), modern agriculture concerns itself with prairie plants. Where natural woodland fauna can and do mix decaying logs into the soil column, in a prairie it will mostly be decaying roots (and especially decaying root hairs). The kind of rot going on is a bit different.
That said, saprophytic fungi are generally held to leave living tissues alone. There are exceptions of course, but having decaying woody matter in the soil is not a death sentence.
With the exception of orchardists (whom some of us think doing everything wrong that you possibly can), modern agriculture concerns itself with prairie plants. Where natural woodland fauna can and do mix decaying logs into the soil column, in a prairie it will mostly be decaying roots (and especially decaying root hairs). The kind of rot going on is a bit different.
That said, saprophytic fungi are generally held to leave living tissues alone. There are exceptions of course, but having decaying woody matter in the soil is not a death sentence.
what types of plants do you grow? what is your climate like?
gardeners' advice that is along the lines of "what you do is wrong, what i do is right" is generally not very good, and you can feel fine telling them thanks on moving on with your life.
gardeners' advice that is along the lines of "what you do is wrong, what i do is right" is generally not very good, and you can feel fine telling them thanks on moving on with your life.
Charles Dowding, the father of no dig gardening, suggests, you don't need to dig in any compost or ogranic matter, just put it on top, as you've suggested. Apparently, the worms and the microorganisms then get to work and bring all that organic matter into the ground themselves working it into a nice tilth.
Worms! If there are many worms the soil is good. If there are no worms, the soil is bad. Worms like the organic matter and convert it into tiny weeny particles that the plants (bacteria) can absorb, they also open up the soil and create structure so it drains nicely.
Worms!
Worms!
I'd love to have worms!!!
they say you have to build up an entire ecosystem of life in your soil to attract the most worms.
I'm trying to find more ways of attracting them but it's hard to get specific studies that show things in a quantifiable way from the gardening community. Some say leaves on the surface attract worms, some say it's composted things, some say it's compost that hasn't completely been broken down yet. But, I have yet to see studies that show precisely the percentage of worms increased by various types of organic matter. What's the optimal approach? other than just adding more organic matter.
i'm adding as much organic matter on top as I can from a variety of sources. but, it'd be great to get some actual specifics on what's most effective.
they say you have to build up an entire ecosystem of life in your soil to attract the most worms.
I'm trying to find more ways of attracting them but it's hard to get specific studies that show things in a quantifiable way from the gardening community. Some say leaves on the surface attract worms, some say it's composted things, some say it's compost that hasn't completely been broken down yet. But, I have yet to see studies that show precisely the percentage of worms increased by various types of organic matter. What's the optimal approach? other than just adding more organic matter.
i'm adding as much organic matter on top as I can from a variety of sources. but, it'd be great to get some actual specifics on what's most effective.
The most effective thing for me was to find an organic matter supply that has worms. If it has worms, it will have worm eggs.
An extra thing that helped was to take some of the worm organic matter (it was a trailer full of well rotted donkey manure) and stir it into my compost heaps. My compost heaps then also got infected with worms.
An extra thing that helped was to take some of the worm organic matter (it was a trailer full of well rotted donkey manure) and stir it into my compost heaps. My compost heaps then also got infected with worms.
Organic matter is mostly feeding the soil life. Sand, silt, and clay are where the minerals in food come from. The soil life makes them available to plants.
The plant roots like the right texture. If you have clay, adding organic matter releases glomalin [0] and creates aggregates that let the water drain more easily, preventing root rot and allowing them to penetrate deeper.
Each of those - sand, clay, organic matter have a pore size distribution and different pressure that it releases water at. The amount of water and the pressure that it's released at form what's called a soil matric potential graph. The important thing is balancing those so that the soil moisture is mostly held at a pressure that the roots can access . There is a soil texture pyramid that illustrates the different soil textures and mixtures.
[0] https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/content/archive/agriculture-today...
[1] https://topsoilpros.com/what-is-a-soil-texture-chart/
The guy in the video is calling mulch compost. Compost is supposed to be made of green material which contains nitrogen and other nutrients not bark and wood chips. There are different sources of organic matter that contain different nutrients, pore distributions, etc.
Each of those - sand, clay, organic matter have a pore size distribution and different pressure that it releases water at. The amount of water and the pressure that it's released at form what's called a soil matric potential graph. The important thing is balancing those so that the soil moisture is mostly held at a pressure that the roots can access . There is a soil texture pyramid that illustrates the different soil textures and mixtures.
[0] https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/content/archive/agriculture-today...
[1] https://topsoilpros.com/what-is-a-soil-texture-chart/
The guy in the video is calling mulch compost. Compost is supposed to be made of green material which contains nitrogen and other nutrients not bark and wood chips. There are different sources of organic matter that contain different nutrients, pore distributions, etc.
Thanks for the cool links.
I believe he knows what compost is, he is just being lazy about using it interchangeably with what you find at most garden shops. Most commercial bags of garden soil and compost both contain a lot of broken down wood. He is just suggesting you shouldn't really have any organic matter around your roots, except for at the top level. It's good to promote mycorrhizal fungi but only at the top layer etc
I think he mostly ranting about how commercial gardening places just sell "soil" that is mostly always comes with added "compost" e.g. https://shorturl.at/mvwzG
Where as they should sell more clay/silt/sand mixes and encourage top dressing instead.
Most people just fill their pots to the top with those bags and it leads to adverse effects.
I believe he knows what compost is, he is just being lazy about using it interchangeably with what you find at most garden shops. Most commercial bags of garden soil and compost both contain a lot of broken down wood. He is just suggesting you shouldn't really have any organic matter around your roots, except for at the top level. It's good to promote mycorrhizal fungi but only at the top layer etc
I think he mostly ranting about how commercial gardening places just sell "soil" that is mostly always comes with added "compost" e.g. https://shorturl.at/mvwzG
Where as they should sell more clay/silt/sand mixes and encourage top dressing instead.
Most people just fill their pots to the top with those bags and it leads to adverse effects.
Yea, you're welcome. I'm watching it rn, he def knows what he's talking about. I just disagree about the deep organic matter being beneficial, obviously don't use rotting compost as your source in a non porous soil though.
I started a company that fractures soil and injects organic matter deep, filling fractures to create drainage and sequester carbon, we use biochar - it has a sandy texture and doesn't break down very quickly because it's been pyrolyzed (anaerobic combustion that produces a charcoal/activated carbon like material that looks like black sand). Integrated pyrolyzed organic matter is how slash/burn ag works in the rainforest and is why Brazil has some soils that are black.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
I started a company that fractures soil and injects organic matter deep, filling fractures to create drainage and sequester carbon, we use biochar - it has a sandy texture and doesn't break down very quickly because it's been pyrolyzed (anaerobic combustion that produces a charcoal/activated carbon like material that looks like black sand). Integrated pyrolyzed organic matter is how slash/burn ag works in the rainforest and is why Brazil has some soils that are black.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
Oh that's such a cool company. I only recently got put onto Terra preta through my personal favorite gardener -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnTaWiO5Eso (he's funny lol)
I'm going to try make my own ad hoc terra preta plots for fun too. Are you able to share any more information on your company? Who is actually buying this service?
I feel like biochar is going to hit the main stream this year or next.
Going to make a compost tea and soak my bio char in it too.
> anaerobic combustion that produces a charcoal/activated carbon
I wonder if this is the trick though, not that there is organic matter down there, but that is already broken down and fully activated the charcoal.
It would also be great to know if the beneficial fungal processes happen at those depths. So many questions aha
I'm going to try make my own ad hoc terra preta plots for fun too. Are you able to share any more information on your company? Who is actually buying this service?
I feel like biochar is going to hit the main stream this year or next.
Going to make a compost tea and soak my bio char in it too.
> anaerobic combustion that produces a charcoal/activated carbon
I wonder if this is the trick though, not that there is organic matter down there, but that is already broken down and fully activated the charcoal.
It would also be great to know if the beneficial fungal processes happen at those depths. So many questions aha
David has a guest video by a lady working above hardpan clay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUfl4x8URc
Essentially all of the permaculture advice for breaking up clay appears to be failing on her hardpan, so she's started using broadforking, which is a sort of compromise between tilling and building soil from the top down. The speaker in this video is being a little more aggressive with the broadfork than most people suggest. The idea is to open the subsoil without blending the upper layers together, resulting in the organic matter-consuming bacterial bloom you get with tilling.
One variant of keylining accomplishes a similar trick on an even smaller scale: you put one long slice into the ground. Water and organic matter seep into that cut and fan out from there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUfl4x8URc
Essentially all of the permaculture advice for breaking up clay appears to be failing on her hardpan, so she's started using broadforking, which is a sort of compromise between tilling and building soil from the top down. The speaker in this video is being a little more aggressive with the broadfork than most people suggest. The idea is to open the subsoil without blending the upper layers together, resulting in the organic matter-consuming bacterial bloom you get with tilling.
One variant of keylining accomplishes a similar trick on an even smaller scale: you put one long slice into the ground. Water and organic matter seep into that cut and fan out from there.
There are also "subsoilers" that you can pull behind a tractor that kind of lifts up the soil 36" deep and then drops it creating breaks.
That's awesome! The tea thing is a good idea. No one is buying it yet, but the plan is to have some micro rain gardens installed this spring using the tech to reduce the overall area required due to the increased drainage depth and moisture storage. It's essentially an erosion control measure until there is a carbon market and we increase automation. We will also be doing some testing with trees - remediating poor drainage with living trees that have been already been planted.
Some of the organic material breaks down really slowly, providing some nutrients to bacteria at a rate that allows the gas to escape, but yea essentially the trick is the ultra high surface area and high compressive strength so that it maintains a porous structure instead of compacting into an anaerobic environment.
Yes, beneficial fungi reach much deeper than roots due to the higher penetrative ability of hyphae and they can still extract stuff from whatever depth they reach.
Long term I want to be able to do what the guy in the video is doing but with out all that shoveling...
Some of the organic material breaks down really slowly, providing some nutrients to bacteria at a rate that allows the gas to escape, but yea essentially the trick is the ultra high surface area and high compressive strength so that it maintains a porous structure instead of compacting into an anaerobic environment.
Yes, beneficial fungi reach much deeper than roots due to the higher penetrative ability of hyphae and they can still extract stuff from whatever depth they reach.
Long term I want to be able to do what the guy in the video is doing but with out all that shoveling...
Never heard of micro rain gardens, googled them, also a good idea for some places in my garden.
And yeah seems like an awful lot of work aha
I'd imagine just getting a bull dozer or something, digging a whole lot of deep rows.
Then putting a sign in my neighbour for everyone to just come dump everything in the ditches, throw some wood on, light it up and repeat several times.
I saw that they are attempting synthetic stuff too which I might research later.
Some useful tips in this Reddit thread -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/1558h7/terra_...
Bamboo sounds like something worth investigating.
And yeah seems like an awful lot of work aha
I'd imagine just getting a bull dozer or something, digging a whole lot of deep rows.
Then putting a sign in my neighbour for everyone to just come dump everything in the ditches, throw some wood on, light it up and repeat several times.
I saw that they are attempting synthetic stuff too which I might research later.
Some useful tips in this Reddit thread -> https://www.reddit.com/r/Permaculture/comments/1558h7/terra_...
Bamboo sounds like something worth investigating.
If you don’t mind me asking, what is/was your educational/career route that led you to the knowledge that you currently have? It seems interestingly diverse, like you have biology, agriculture, but also some mechanical?
I got a degree in biosystems engineering (it covers electrical mechanical and chemical eng broadly from a systems perspective focused on bio production) and worked on research farms (organic academic and private viticulture). Then did some academic soil formulations research in greenhouse / nursery setting. Currently I'm employed part time on upwork doing chemical formulations reverse engineering for green products.
Fascinating, thank you - I have some more questions if you don't mind! Was that your first degree or did you switch to this domain from something else? Would you care to name/recommend your degree program, and any key texts, for someone interested in following in your footsteps?
I got a visual comm degree, worked in video production for awhile, but decided to change fields. It kinda took a lot of time and set me back, but I prefer this kind of work. UC Davis has a good ag program, I think Purdue is highest ranked, Arkansas and NC state are good too. I went to UTK, it was not bad. The course work was just generic engineering stuff until junior level - then you get some really interesting bioprocess industry stuff and Sr level is focused completely a series of design projects. Learned the most there really, because it's about being able to quickly do research and apply it to a design that has to be presented for critiqued review. It's pretty fun for me to get presented with a new little niche problem and go down the rabbit hole trying to figure it out - after you do that a bunch of times you build up a pretty diverse knowledge base and it makes things quicker.
If you tell me which subject you're trying to learn more about I could recommend something. There's not really any text that covers that field broadly, you might start with a soil science book - I'd recommend Soil Science Simplified as intro or The Nature and Properties of Soils for a complete in depth text. Those won't tell you anything about nursery soils though, only field soil.
I added my email to my profile, feel free to hmu.
If you tell me which subject you're trying to learn more about I could recommend something. There's not really any text that covers that field broadly, you might start with a soil science book - I'd recommend Soil Science Simplified as intro or The Nature and Properties of Soils for a complete in depth text. Those won't tell you anything about nursery soils though, only field soil.
I added my email to my profile, feel free to hmu.
Much appreciated, thank you for sharing!
I don't have a specific interest at the moment, but have been more curious about this area recently after getting into regen ag podcasts.
I don't have a specific interest at the moment, but have been more curious about this area recently after getting into regen ag podcasts.
Is it beneficial in anyway to use wood that burned in wildfires (very hot fires that burned most trees and shrubs down through the roots, but also left a lot of nearly fully burned trees and shrubs above ground) as part of the mix or is only pyrolyzed material useful?
That left over bit is technically also pyrolyzed material because very hot fires create anaerobic conditions. Integrating it into the soil seems like a good idea.
> In short, plant roots actually love sand, silt and clay, and actually don't like organic matter around their roots as it causes rot.
IMO it really depends on what you're trying to grow. I live in the tropics and there are a lot of tropical plants that do indeed thrive when the soil is heavy on the organic matter. I suspect it depends on how far/long these tropical plants have been bred away from their rainforest origins.
IMO it really depends on what you're trying to grow. I live in the tropics and there are a lot of tropical plants that do indeed thrive when the soil is heavy on the organic matter. I suspect it depends on how far/long these tropical plants have been bred away from their rainforest origins.
Yeah, I think your absolutely correct.
Gardening is actually quite hard in this regard. Everyone is always sharing tips and tricks, for different crops, different species of said crops, different climates, different soils, different hemispheres, different sides of a mountain etc
I think there will be a cool database where you can filter by those factors one day but not sure we are quite there just yet.
Gardening is actually quite hard in this regard. Everyone is always sharing tips and tricks, for different crops, different species of said crops, different climates, different soils, different hemispheres, different sides of a mountain etc
I think there will be a cool database where you can filter by those factors one day but not sure we are quite there just yet.
"a cool database where you can filter by those factors" => this is one of the inspirations for Greg, the plant care community I've been helping to build after leaving Tinder.
Think Waze, for plants. We're about to launch on ProductHunt and HN, if you're interested you can check us out at https://greg.help.
Think Waze, for plants. We're about to launch on ProductHunt and HN, if you're interested you can check us out at https://greg.help.
Awesome, will check it out!
Edit: Checked it out
Will install it and run it on my office plants.
Outside I am a dirty gardener and tend to just let things run it's course so won't help me much there.
Edit: Checked it out
Will install it and run it on my office plants.
Outside I am a dirty gardener and tend to just let things run it's course so won't help me much there.
Woodland plants also expect organic matter in the soil column. It's one of the complaints about 'modern' forestry practices that leave no mature wood on the ground to decay. Real forests have rotting logs in them.
It's really conventional farmers concentrating on annuals that want something different. They're growing prairie plants.
It's really conventional farmers concentrating on annuals that want something different. They're growing prairie plants.
I'm curious what HN thinks about the current trend of root washing when planting trees. From what I've read the science is still out and people tend to be split 50/50.
The root washers say that by removing all media that the sapling was grown in will give the roots more "incentive" to move into the native soil and thus it will establish quicker.
Whereas the anti-washers say you are slowing the establishment by washing away the helpful microbes as described in the article.
Then there are the people who say, DO wash the roots, but save the water. Plant the tree bare-root, but fill the hole with 50% of the saved water, and use the rest to top-water over the next few weeks. The idea is to get the benefits of bare-root planting along with saving the beneficial organisms.
The reason I ask is that my yearly tree just arrived in the post and I've yet to put it in the ground. I'd love to know what the current thinking is.
The root washers say that by removing all media that the sapling was grown in will give the roots more "incentive" to move into the native soil and thus it will establish quicker.
Whereas the anti-washers say you are slowing the establishment by washing away the helpful microbes as described in the article.
Then there are the people who say, DO wash the roots, but save the water. Plant the tree bare-root, but fill the hole with 50% of the saved water, and use the rest to top-water over the next few weeks. The idea is to get the benefits of bare-root planting along with saving the beneficial organisms.
The reason I ask is that my yearly tree just arrived in the post and I've yet to put it in the ground. I'd love to know what the current thinking is.
I buy bare root plants because tree nurseries repot their seedlings too late, after the roots had already begun circling the pot. The worst one I ever saw had three layers of circling roots. I got it at my favorite froo-froo gardening center. I took it back and showed their plant buyer. He said that's normal. The fuck it is.
Bare root plants never have this problem.
There is definitely a tendency of trees to behave as if they are in a pot when they encounter a huge change in soil medium. The dead tree I dug up this spring had virtually no roots outside of the original cone section of the pot it came in.
The other problem, especially with bushes, is they often put those little plastic time release fertilizer beads into their soil mix and so I'm putting microplastic into my yard. Often the roots are too fibrous to get all of the beads. I sometimes get the smaller plants because of this.
I don't actually 'wash' though, I use a chopstick to tease the dirt away from the roots. They're still coated.
Bare root plants never have this problem.
There is definitely a tendency of trees to behave as if they are in a pot when they encounter a huge change in soil medium. The dead tree I dug up this spring had virtually no roots outside of the original cone section of the pot it came in.
The other problem, especially with bushes, is they often put those little plastic time release fertilizer beads into their soil mix and so I'm putting microplastic into my yard. Often the roots are too fibrous to get all of the beads. I sometimes get the smaller plants because of this.
I don't actually 'wash' though, I use a chopstick to tease the dirt away from the roots. They're still coated.
I recently received a camellia sinensis (tea plant) from a nursery that was root bound. That wasn't much of an issue. The problem I has was the nursery was required to drench the soil in bifentrhin pesticide. First thing out of the box is a warning to wear gloves and keep kids and animals away from the root zone. No thank you. I have been cultivating an environment for the critters in my yard. I regularly have frogs, toads, birds and occasional deer and bear in my yard. No pesticides allowed! In this case I did wash the roots and repotted in my home soil mix.
Bare root plants do sometimes have issues getting started but I will only be ordering seed or bare root from now on.
Bare root plants do sometimes have issues getting started but I will only be ordering seed or bare root from now on.
I'm not a gardener at all, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out, should it?
Get like 9 of the same plants at the same point in the life cycle, wash 3, leave 3 and do the 50\50 for 3. Compare results.
If it's as big a deal as people make it out to be, it should be obvious, no?
Get like 9 of the same plants at the same point in the life cycle, wash 3, leave 3 and do the 50\50 for 3. Compare results.
If it's as big a deal as people make it out to be, it should be obvious, no?
In theory, yes. In practice it would require me buying 9 trees and waiting for 3-5 years to see the results - and i'm getting old ;)
But I do like a good experiment! And my neighbours garden is quite bare. Now you got me thinking...
But I do like a good experiment! And my neighbours garden is quite bare. Now you got me thinking...
I think that washing the roots and planting the tree without damaging the roots is a really hard trick to pull off.
I think that you don't want the rootball to be limited to the old pot outline, so opening it up a bit gently (so a few shakes and a little digging around) and encouraging a bit of a spread of the roots is the best way to go.
You might incentivize the tree, you might kill the tree... I don't think that this is a good plan :)
I think that you don't want the rootball to be limited to the old pot outline, so opening it up a bit gently (so a few shakes and a little digging around) and encouraging a bit of a spread of the roots is the best way to go.
You might incentivize the tree, you might kill the tree... I don't think that this is a good plan :)
Haven't transplanted many trees at all, and there are probably a million factors.
A little rule I follow is;
If the plant already looks quite unhealthy, I prefer to just put it as is straight into the ground, feed it and water it. It will take longer to recover but I believe it minimises the risk of outright killing it.
If I get a very healthy plant, I will play around with it more, slice its roots, rinse it out, make a soil mix for the new roots etc
This is completely speculative but the best results I've had so far.
A little rule I follow is;
If the plant already looks quite unhealthy, I prefer to just put it as is straight into the ground, feed it and water it. It will take longer to recover but I believe it minimises the risk of outright killing it.
If I get a very healthy plant, I will play around with it more, slice its roots, rinse it out, make a soil mix for the new roots etc
This is completely speculative but the best results I've had so far.
This reminds me of my favorite "thought experiment" to poke at intuition: with no other information that what most people learn in elementary/middle school science (or what I would assume is taught, i.e. the water and respiration cycles), where does the majority of a tree's mass come from?
First we might look at dirt, but that doesn't quite pan out; where does the mass come from, and how would it be replenished? We don't see gaps slowly start forming around roots, and dirt doesn't just build up in other places, so that's probably not it.
Next we might look at water, but water is only made of hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen is released. The water also brings in nutrients, but there's no way it brings in enough to generate the majority of a trees mass.
So there's only one place left, which is never anyone's first guess and almost never crosses anyone's mind at first glance: air. It's around this point that most people realize that a majority of a tree is carbon, which all comes in from the air as carbon dioxide.
First we might look at dirt, but that doesn't quite pan out; where does the mass come from, and how would it be replenished? We don't see gaps slowly start forming around roots, and dirt doesn't just build up in other places, so that's probably not it.
Next we might look at water, but water is only made of hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen is released. The water also brings in nutrients, but there's no way it brings in enough to generate the majority of a trees mass.
So there's only one place left, which is never anyone's first guess and almost never crosses anyone's mind at first glance: air. It's around this point that most people realize that a majority of a tree is carbon, which all comes in from the air as carbon dioxide.
Edit: this is wrong, see comments below.
The correct answer is water though, not air. Air only accounts for the Carbon content of the tree, which is a big part, but still a minority.
First, a live tree contains a lot of water (30-50%), that's why you need to let wood dry a lot before burning it.
And there's something else:
> Next we might look at water, but water is only made of hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen is released.
Not all oxygen is released. All oxygen contained in a plants molecule (mostly cellulose and hemicellulose, which are polymers of glucose, and lignin) comes from water. And there's a lot of it: there's as much Oxygen as Carbon in a glucose molecule.
The correct answer is water though, not air. Air only accounts for the Carbon content of the tree, which is a big part, but still a minority.
First, a live tree contains a lot of water (30-50%), that's why you need to let wood dry a lot before burning it.
And there's something else:
> Next we might look at water, but water is only made of hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen is released.
Not all oxygen is released. All oxygen contained in a plants molecule (mostly cellulose and hemicellulose, which are polymers of glucose, and lignin) comes from water. And there's a lot of it: there's as much Oxygen as Carbon in a glucose molecule.
I’m pretty sure the oxygen comes from CO2.
Plant carbohydrates are made directly from CO2 in the Calvin Cycle.
The Calvin Cycle is the source of all of the carbohydrate building blocks in the plant, and I’m pretty sure that oxygen from H2O does not enter the equation, just CO2 and some enzymes and cofactors.
If so, the vast majority of the mass is from the air.
(H might originate from water but its mass is pretty trivial compared to C and O)
Plant carbohydrates are made directly from CO2 in the Calvin Cycle.
The Calvin Cycle is the source of all of the carbohydrate building blocks in the plant, and I’m pretty sure that oxygen from H2O does not enter the equation, just CO2 and some enzymes and cofactors.
If so, the vast majority of the mass is from the air.
(H might originate from water but its mass is pretty trivial compared to C and O)
That's correct.
"Water Is the Source of the Oxygen Produced by Photosynthesis" (and CO2 is the source of the oxygen in carbohydrates)
http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/courses/bis/2A/bis2A-F11/Photosyn...
"Water Is the Source of the Oxygen Produced by Photosynthesis" (and CO2 is the source of the oxygen in carbohydrates)
http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/courses/bis/2A/bis2A-F11/Photosyn...
I stand corrected, I had somehow built-up a wrong understanding of it (looks like those high school classes are long lost).
But where does all that excess oxygen go then? (the O/C ratio is 2 in C but ~1 in carbohydrates).
But where does all that excess oxygen go then? (the O/C ratio is 2 in C but ~1 in carbohydrates).
It gets released into the air through the leaves. It's the animal respiration cycle in reverse
No. It was my first understanding as well, but it's not what happens. See this link from a sibling comment: http://www-plb.ucdavis.edu/courses/bis/2A/bis2A-F11/Photosyn...
Corollary - let’s say I start exercising more and lose weight. I used to eat 100kg now I weigh 90kg. Where did the 10kg go?
Short answer is: it is eliminated through respiration, and becomes CO2
Fun Ted talk of this point
The mathematics of weight loss https://youtu.be/vuIlsN32WaE
The mathematics of weight loss https://youtu.be/vuIlsN32WaE
I was just thinking about this last week, didn't get around to googling it.
I would have been wrong, mind blown lol thanks.
I would have been wrong, mind blown lol thanks.
I am so happy to see this on HN. A couple years ago I started learning about rhizosphere environment. It has changed how I look at my gardening. I now see healthy plants as a biproduct of feeding and caring for the soil. I imagine the soil as the external stomach of plants. When the soil is healthy plants thrive. I get excited when I start seeing larger arthropods in a new bed. It is an indication that the soil ecosystem is very healthy.
To head down the rabbit hole of soil health even further, learning about increasing the cation exchange capacity(CEC) affect on plant health has been fascinating.
To head down the rabbit hole of soil health even further, learning about increasing the cation exchange capacity(CEC) affect on plant health has been fascinating.
In aquaponic systems, which have plenty of bacteria on the roots, we are running much lower levels of nutrients with very good growth, compared to recommended hydroponic nutrient levels. I think we are observing this interaction that is described here.
I wonder how much of this rhizophagy cycle applies to plants that don't really rely on the soil for nutrients. e.g. many of the insectivore plans (venus fly trap, pitcher plant, etc.).
In fact, if you try to plant venus fly trap in rich soil, it'll probably die.
In fact, if you try to plant venus fly trap in rich soil, it'll probably die.
Most of those plants would still rely on the soil for some nutrients, I assume their history in poor soil has just led to them developing additional ways to get some nutrients. Like vitamin d in humans.
On a related note, Richard Feynman explains how a tree grows:
https://youtu.be/ifk6iuLQk28
I love how it starts with: Over the past few years it has become clear that plants are able to extract nutrients directly from soil microorganisms in their roots. - something that was like a baseline of plant biology when I took it in high school 40 years ago, and, according to wikipedia, we've know for over 120 years.
There is a plethora of home gardeners and/or permaculture resources on the internet that generally like as much organic matter as possible.
I some of that strategy as it's convenient at home to supply nutrients to plants without much work.
But, I can't help but feel it's all sort of wish washy science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZHy3_7PPE
^ I found this guys videos much more satisfactory to "need the facts" mindset. He uses knowledge from the agricultural industry instead of the "organic" approach.
In short, plant roots actually love sand, silt and clay, and actually don't like organic matter around their roots as it causes rot. He suggests that you should always just top feed your plants. (throw compost around the top of the plants only) When people say don't over water your plants, it's not because of the water, but because of the organic matter in your pots mixing with water and making sewerage. (e.g. this is why hydroponics works)
Anyway, I'd suggest watching some of his videos on perfect soil for an opinion you don't find much of in home gardening videos.
(This was touchy for me because when I started gardened everyone described my soil as sandy, shit and told me to amend it with X, Y and Z. I was too lazy to listen at the time and noticed that my plants were perfectly fine growing in sand as long as I top fed regularly.)