Arabian Nights(blog.pgdp.net)
blog.pgdp.net
Arabian Nights
https://blog.pgdp.net/2021/04/01/arabian-nights/
116 comments
Indeed, Hanna Diyab is a very interesting person
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanna_Diyab
> By his own account he wrote them down (in French) based on narration from a Syrian Maronite storyteller who visited him in Paris
That sounds a lot like the origin story of Don Quixote... (within the text, it was allegedly told to Cervantes by Cide Hamete Benengeli)
That sounds a lot like the origin story of Don Quixote... (within the text, it was allegedly told to Cervantes by Cide Hamete Benengeli)
The storyteller did exist though. He even wrote a memoir! But he didn't write down his own stories. He narrated them for Galland, presumably in French, and Galland wrote them down... a few days later... from memory.
Sorry for being blunt but: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence (of original texts in Arabic about Alaaddin that predate Galland etc).
A lot of the original stories may be verbal oral and not necessarily written, another lot may be lost (burn libraries etc) and this all happened from 400 to 1000 years ago, so not exactly yesterday.
A lot of the original stories may be verbal oral and not necessarily written, another lot may be lost (burn libraries etc) and this all happened from 400 to 1000 years ago, so not exactly yesterday.
Indeed, this is why I say "no known original in Arabic."
But it is also possible that the Maronite storyteller was from a somewhat different storytelling tradition. Maronites are a Christian minority in the Levant which was traditionally involved in maritime trade, so they might have different sources for stories. In the end it is all guesswork since Gallard is the only known source of the story.
At one point a manuscript was found with Aladdin in Arabic, but it turned out to be an Arabic translation from Gallard!
Here is a great article about the question: https://ajammc.com/2017/09/14/who-wrote-aladdin/
But it is also possible that the Maronite storyteller was from a somewhat different storytelling tradition. Maronites are a Christian minority in the Levant which was traditionally involved in maritime trade, so they might have different sources for stories. In the end it is all guesswork since Gallard is the only known source of the story.
At one point a manuscript was found with Aladdin in Arabic, but it turned out to be an Arabic translation from Gallard!
Here is a great article about the question: https://ajammc.com/2017/09/14/who-wrote-aladdin/
> Folklorists have pointed out that the set of stories recorded from the storyteller have a number of story tropes more characteristic of European rather than Middle Eastern folk tales.
Interesting, could you give us an example of these characteristics?
Islamic and European societies during the period of these stories were different in unique ways, and for that reason I'm not exactly sure how those characteristics were more similar to the one rather than the other.
Interesting, could you give us an example of these characteristics?
Islamic and European societies during the period of these stories were different in unique ways, and for that reason I'm not exactly sure how those characteristics were more similar to the one rather than the other.
So the crucial thing about story telling is that it’s not a literary genre. And that means that’s it’s often extemporaneous. In order to make up stories on the spot, storytellers use a body of elements (motifs, incidents, etc.) that they can dump in when they need them. Literary genres close to oral storytelling, like chivalric romance, the Sanskrit katha, and Arabian nights tales, usually keep this quality. (Btw, a good storyteller can do amazing things in this framework).
The issue with Alladin, Sinbad, and Ali baba, is that they lack most of the common motifs of Arabian nights tales (IE the slave whose mistake solves the problem, bedtricks, the sultan who solves everything, the discovered needed object) but do possess motifs very characteristic of 17 and 18th century French folktales (notably alladins rags to riches story, and the princesses cup trick). They also are less motif heavy in general! That doesn’t mean the translator made them up by the way... the resemblance to French folktales could be an accident, and they could be from another storytelling tradition, but they don’t seem like Arabian nights stories
The issue with Alladin, Sinbad, and Ali baba, is that they lack most of the common motifs of Arabian nights tales (IE the slave whose mistake solves the problem, bedtricks, the sultan who solves everything, the discovered needed object) but do possess motifs very characteristic of 17 and 18th century French folktales (notably alladins rags to riches story, and the princesses cup trick). They also are less motif heavy in general! That doesn’t mean the translator made them up by the way... the resemblance to French folktales could be an accident, and they could be from another storytelling tradition, but they don’t seem like Arabian nights stories
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Jorge Luis Borges wrote an excellent comparison of translations of the Arabian Nights, notably those of Galland, Burton, Lane and Mardrus. His conclusion was the Lane one was most faithful to the original, despite being prudishly bowdlerized, that Mardrus emphasized the sensual aspects to titillate his readers and Burton on the other hand over-emphasized the violence. I've read the Galland, Mardrus and Burton but not Lane, and can agree on his characterizations of the first three.
It's great to see they have left the footnotes, that are some of the most interesting aspects of the translation (trigger warning: Burton was a Victorian and exhibits all the casual racism of his epoch, despite being very forward-looking in surprising ways).
My favorite one is from volume 1:
[FN#543] Arab. Al-Zalamah lit. = tyrants, oppressors, applied to the police and generally to employés of Government. It is a word which tells a history.
It's great to see they have left the footnotes, that are some of the most interesting aspects of the translation (trigger warning: Burton was a Victorian and exhibits all the casual racism of his epoch, despite being very forward-looking in surprising ways).
My favorite one is from volume 1:
[FN#543] Arab. Al-Zalamah lit. = tyrants, oppressors, applied to the police and generally to employés of Government. It is a word which tells a history.
The opening of Borges' essay is absolutely brilliant writing:
> AT TRIESTE, IN 1872, in a palace with damp statues and deficient hygienic facilities, a gentleman on whose face an African scar told its tale — Captain Richard Francis Burton, the English consul — embarked on a famous translation of the Quitab aliflaila ua laila, which the roumis know by the title, The Thousand and One Nights. One of the secret aims of his work was the annihilation of another gentleman (also weatherbeaten, and with a dark Moorish beard) who was compiling a vast dictionary in England and who died long before he was annihilated by Burton. That gentleman was Edward Lane, the Orientalist, author of a highly scrupulous version of The Thousand and One Nights that had supplanted a version by Galland. Lane translated against Galland, Burton against Lane; to understand Burton we must understand this hostile dynasty.
Borges also admires Burton's footnotes:
> Thus Volume Six (which I have before me) includes some three hundred notes, among which are the following: a condemnation of jails and a defense of corporal punishment and fines; some examples of the Islamic respect for bread; a legend about the hairiness of Queen Belkis’ legs; an enumeration of the four colors that are emblematic of death; a theory and practice of Oriental ingratitude; the information that angels prefer a piebald mount, while Djinns favor horses with a bright-bay coat; a synopsis of the mythology surrounding the secret Night of Power or Night of Nights; a denunciation of the superficiality of Andrew Lang; a diatribe against rule by democracy; a census of the names of Mohammed, on the Earth, in the Fire, and in the Garden; a mention of the Amalekite people, of long years and large stature; a note on the private parts of the Moslem, which for the man extend from the navel to his knees, and for the woman from the top of the head to the tips of her toes; a consideration of the asa’o [roasted beef] of the Argentine gaucho; a warning about the discomforts of “equitation” when the steed is human; an allusion to a grandiose plan for cross-breeding baboons with women and thus deriving a sub-race of good proletarians. At fifty, a man has accumulated affections, ironies, obscenities, and copious anecdotes; Burton unburdened himself of them in his notes.
> AT TRIESTE, IN 1872, in a palace with damp statues and deficient hygienic facilities, a gentleman on whose face an African scar told its tale — Captain Richard Francis Burton, the English consul — embarked on a famous translation of the Quitab aliflaila ua laila, which the roumis know by the title, The Thousand and One Nights. One of the secret aims of his work was the annihilation of another gentleman (also weatherbeaten, and with a dark Moorish beard) who was compiling a vast dictionary in England and who died long before he was annihilated by Burton. That gentleman was Edward Lane, the Orientalist, author of a highly scrupulous version of The Thousand and One Nights that had supplanted a version by Galland. Lane translated against Galland, Burton against Lane; to understand Burton we must understand this hostile dynasty.
Borges also admires Burton's footnotes:
> Thus Volume Six (which I have before me) includes some three hundred notes, among which are the following: a condemnation of jails and a defense of corporal punishment and fines; some examples of the Islamic respect for bread; a legend about the hairiness of Queen Belkis’ legs; an enumeration of the four colors that are emblematic of death; a theory and practice of Oriental ingratitude; the information that angels prefer a piebald mount, while Djinns favor horses with a bright-bay coat; a synopsis of the mythology surrounding the secret Night of Power or Night of Nights; a denunciation of the superficiality of Andrew Lang; a diatribe against rule by democracy; a census of the names of Mohammed, on the Earth, in the Fire, and in the Garden; a mention of the Amalekite people, of long years and large stature; a note on the private parts of the Moslem, which for the man extend from the navel to his knees, and for the woman from the top of the head to the tips of her toes; a consideration of the asa’o [roasted beef] of the Argentine gaucho; a warning about the discomforts of “equitation” when the steed is human; an allusion to a grandiose plan for cross-breeding baboons with women and thus deriving a sub-race of good proletarians. At fifty, a man has accumulated affections, ironies, obscenities, and copious anecdotes; Burton unburdened himself of them in his notes.
I did not know this exists. Can't wait to look it up and read it, thanks.
There's a really nice modern translation of the Arabian nights by Husain Haddawy, that is worth your time. The preface to that translation goes into a lot of fun detail about the book's complex trajectory, and its unhappy translations by Burton and others. The first volume contains the closest thing to Arabian Nights "canon". Haddawy then published a second volume with stories that glommed onto the text later, but are massively popular, including Ala-Addin and the Magic Lamp and Sinbad the Sailor.
The Burton translation is of more interest as an psychosexual glimpse into the guy's mind, and an Orientalist artifact, than for the story istelf. Burton wrote in a bizarrely archaicized English that has no counterpart in the text, which reads like all oral storytelling everywhere—repetitive, engaging, and fun.
The Burton translation is of more interest as an psychosexual glimpse into the guy's mind, and an Orientalist artifact, than for the story istelf. Burton wrote in a bizarrely archaicized English that has no counterpart in the text, which reads like all oral storytelling everywhere—repetitive, engaging, and fun.
Interesting. I have made it through only a third or so of the Mathers' translation (translated to English from the French translation).
I started the Burton translation but found the wording - dense? It seemed it should be more authentic though since it was a direct English translation.
Burton, as I have glimpsed, was quite a character.
I started the Burton translation but found the wording - dense? It seemed it should be more authentic though since it was a direct English translation.
Burton, as I have glimpsed, was quite a character.
Burton translated into a fantastical, archaicized, almost unreadable version of English of his own invention. The Haddaway introduction has some nice examples of his prose compared to a "straight" translation of the original text.
I find Burton's translation incredible - though certainly it is also fantastical and archaicized. For a first reader I think it might be a bit daunting, but honestly I love it.
Like any ancient work, it's worth hopping between a few translations over the years depending on what you're currently into. I've got a shelf full of Iliads and Odysseys because I can't decide which I like best.
Like any ancient work, it's worth hopping between a few translations over the years depending on what you're currently into. I've got a shelf full of Iliads and Odysseys because I can't decide which I like best.
Amazing how the 'almost unreadable' Burton's Thousand Nights continues to sell to this day, even on Kindle. As far as I can gather, there is plenty of sexual imagery in the original manuscript undoubtedly emphasized by Burton. Suggestions of really gross mis-translation or invention by Burton, seem to be thin on the ground.
The trouble with Burton isn't inaccuracy so much as unreadability, or at least clumsiness, because he translated into an idiosyncratic variety of English never used by anyone else before or since.
Here's an example from the introduction to Dawood's translation, which I happen to have handy:
"But she rejoined by saying, 'Allah upon you both that ye come down forthright, and if you come not, I will rouse upon you my husband, this Ifrit, and he shall do you to die by the illest of deaths'; and she continued making signals to them."
I'm sure that's an accurate enough translation of the relevant bit of the Nights. But it's not good English. "Allah upon you"? "do you to die by the illest of deaths"? Maybe the idea is to give it an exotic flavour, but the stories themselves provide enough of that, and so far as I know the original language wouldn't feel exotic to a native reader.
Here's an example from the introduction to Dawood's translation, which I happen to have handy:
"But she rejoined by saying, 'Allah upon you both that ye come down forthright, and if you come not, I will rouse upon you my husband, this Ifrit, and he shall do you to die by the illest of deaths'; and she continued making signals to them."
I'm sure that's an accurate enough translation of the relevant bit of the Nights. But it's not good English. "Allah upon you"? "do you to die by the illest of deaths"? Maybe the idea is to give it an exotic flavour, but the stories themselves provide enough of that, and so far as I know the original language wouldn't feel exotic to a native reader.
I'm fascinated.
It sounds like a pidgin, or literal translation. Can anybody compare the grammar used to that of the original text? Or is it a work of complete imagination?
It sounds like a pidgin, or literal translation. Can anybody compare the grammar used to that of the original text? Or is it a work of complete imagination?
The english translation that you quoted sounds very similar in nature to the english translation of Quranic verses. The Quran is kind of poetic in its language and hence its translation always sounds a bit odd. This makes me wonder whether the original Arabian Nights were also in the nature of a narrative poem?
Because NJ Dawood did a Quran translation as well
That can't explain any similarity between what I quoted and English translations of the Qur'an -- because while what I quoted came from the intro to Dawood's translation of the Nights, what it is is a sample of Burton's translation (which Dawood quotes as an example of Burton's oddity).
English is my second language and I find his translation (and the fragment you quoted) clear, interesting and poetic. Reminds of King James Bible translation, which I also greatly enjoy.
One thing the KJV has in common with Burton's translation is a certain deliberate archaism -- its language was rather old-fashioned when it was published in 1610.
There's (obviously) absolutely nothing with liking deliberately archaic, slightly high-flown language. Personally I find it rather annoying in Burton but like it in the KJV, but different people have different tastes.
Though ... A lot of people who read the KJV are doing so not so much for the enjoyment of its literary style, but because they believe it to be the Word of God; unfortunately this means that many people are seeking divine enlightenment from a translation that (1) in many cases they don't understand well just because its language is hundreds of years separated from what they're accustomed to speaking and reading, and that (2) is based on now-outdated textual scholarship and therefore does a suboptimal job of reporting what the allegedly divinely inspired writers actually wrote. That seems unfortunate.
There's (obviously) absolutely nothing with liking deliberately archaic, slightly high-flown language. Personally I find it rather annoying in Burton but like it in the KJV, but different people have different tastes.
Though ... A lot of people who read the KJV are doing so not so much for the enjoyment of its literary style, but because they believe it to be the Word of God; unfortunately this means that many people are seeking divine enlightenment from a translation that (1) in many cases they don't understand well just because its language is hundreds of years separated from what they're accustomed to speaking and reading, and that (2) is based on now-outdated textual scholarship and therefore does a suboptimal job of reporting what the allegedly divinely inspired writers actually wrote. That seems unfortunate.
In fairness I believe Shakespeare also wrote his works in idiosyncratic English.
I just referred you to a source for both. Burton is more inspired fanfic than translation. Some people like it!
Always fun to remind people that Aladdin is actually Chinese in the original stories.
But then, let's be fair, their depiction of China sounds like it was just a placeholder for "far away land"
But then, let's be fair, their depiction of China sounds like it was just a placeholder for "far away land"
On a related note, some languages become placeholder for "gibberish." For example, English speakers often say "it sounds Greek."
https://twitter.com/TommSciortino/status/1357376440170258434
https://twitter.com/TommSciortino/status/1357376440170258434
Even to this day, the word China in Arabic (pronounced "seen") means far away.
So if your friend lives across town and you are inconvenienced, in Arabic you would say "why do you live in China?".
So if your friend lives across town and you are inconvenienced, in Arabic you would say "why do you live in China?".
I love that in Arabic, China is a metaphor for "far away," and in Chinese, China is basically "the central place." I am hoping to find out that the Pashto or Hindu for China means "medium far away."
The word "china" might mean 'far' but only in a metaphorical way
As is the case in many other languages.
But the word for "far" or "far away" in arabic is definitely not "china / الصين"
Taking "the slow boat to China" is an idiom in English for a long duration or long journey.
In Hindi, we pronounce it as 'Cheen', with the 'ch' sound.
I would highly recommend the musical interpretation by Rimsky-Korsakov (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheherazade_(Rimsky-Korsakov). The violin soloist as Scheherazade leads the Sultan through the stories. See the Overview section of the wikipedia page for her theme, and his theme. It's a piece I always love to come back to.
I've enjoyed that one since I was a child. Funnily enough I listened to it just a few weeks ago after having not listened to it for years.
> Many of the well-known modern stories, like that of Aladdin, have the more prurient elements removed or are stories that were added much later.
I wonder about the "prurient" bits? Anyone perused this version and can share what this is about?
I am quite curious to see if the version I read in my own language also has the same censoring.
I wonder about the "prurient" bits? Anyone perused this version and can share what this is about?
I am quite curious to see if the version I read in my own language also has the same censoring.
If you read the story "The Porter and the Three Ladies of Baghdad" (I think... this is from memory) the women (the escalating beauty of whom as the porter meets each is incredibly phrased by Burton) eventually are fooling around with the porter and they are pointing to each other's crotches and joking about different names: "thy cleft, thy slit, thy coynte, thy clitoris" and the women suggest "the basil of the bridges" (I confess myself mystified) and "the husked sesame seed" (husked due to female circumcision).
Other translations are muuuuuch more tame. Abridged versions probably skip it entirely. When I first read the unexpurgated Burton my mind was blown on the regular.
Other translations are muuuuuch more tame. Abridged versions probably skip it entirely. When I first read the unexpurgated Burton my mind was blown on the regular.
Wait until you read some Abu Nuwas
I've read part of the stories some time ago. What made me the most impression was how much the heroes of the stories spent in thinking and talking about cuckolding. Not sure if this is what the author means though.
Aladdin isn't an example of a story with the prurient elements removed, it's an example of a story that was added much later. Aladdin is not present in Middle Eastern versions of the Arabian Nights at all; it first appears in a book written by a French guy.
oh, I see, thanks.
I remember reading a story where sailors discovered an island where plant-women were growing. They were friendly and gave fruits growing on them to the sailors, but the few who tried to "embrace" them got absorbed. Yep, there was some vore hentai connoisseurs at the time.
In the original there were frequent occurrences of the names of various anatomical parts or of various acts that are considered taboo now.
Also there were many explicit descriptions of love scenes, even if a poetic language was used for them.
Of the old translations, only the French translation of Mardrus and the uncensored variant of Burton were somewhat close to the original text. Even the "uncensored" variant of Burton was more distant from the original text than the Mardrus translation.
There exists a much more recent French translation which is said to be more faithful to the original text than any of the previous translations (while the Mardrus translation was not censored, there were many places where it was not a word-by-word translation).
I do not remember precisely, because I have read it a long time ago, but I believe that the new good French translation is that by André Miquel et al.; various editions of that may be found at Amazon. I am not aware of any decent English translation.
When I was very young, I have read a translation into my language of the French translation of Mardrus. The first few volumes matched the French text, so they were quite explicit. Then it seems that someone noticed that and ordered the translators to remove any explicit parts, so the following volumes were obviously censored, lacking many words or entire scenes from the French Mardrus text.
Of the old translations, only the French translation of Mardrus and the uncensored variant of Burton were somewhat close to the original text. Even the "uncensored" variant of Burton was more distant from the original text than the Mardrus translation.
There exists a much more recent French translation which is said to be more faithful to the original text than any of the previous translations (while the Mardrus translation was not censored, there were many places where it was not a word-by-word translation).
I do not remember precisely, because I have read it a long time ago, but I believe that the new good French translation is that by André Miquel et al.; various editions of that may be found at Amazon. I am not aware of any decent English translation.
When I was very young, I have read a translation into my language of the French translation of Mardrus. The first few volumes matched the French text, so they were quite explicit. Then it seems that someone noticed that and ordered the translators to remove any explicit parts, so the following volumes were obviously censored, lacking many words or entire scenes from the French Mardrus text.
Mardrus got translated into English by Mathers. It's the edition I've read (partially—my copy is in four very fat volumes, so it's a lot of reading). Can confirm that it includes tons of stuff I'd expect to be missing from any kind of Bowdlerized or censored version. Not sure I'd recommend it for a modern reader in English given the other options available, these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Powys_Mathers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Powys_Mathers
[deleted]
interesting, thanks.
The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Thousand and One Nights, Vol. I., by Anonymous
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34206/34206-h/34206-h.htm
The abridged Harvard Classics copy is here, for anyone looking for another source/version: http://www.myharvardclassics.com/downloads/20120213_1/downlo...
Funny to use Aladdin as an example: it was added later to the original manuscript.
If someone wants to listen to some of these stories, the Myths and Legends podcast does a nice exploration and breakdown of a lot of these and other stories.
Perhaps one of the greatest Arabic, Middle Eastern, and Islamic contributions to world literature, the many stories of the Arabian Nights, in their various forms and genres, have influenced literature, music, art, and cinema, and continue to do so until our present day.
This little bit of cultural misappropriation has always bugged me. Oddly enough, it is always the Europeans insisting on these Persian/Iranian matters being "Arab". I seriously wonder if this is still nursing ancient Persian Greek/Roman rivalries and is a byproduct of a chauvinist classical education of the European educated set of 19th century. I find it very strange.
In the OP, we have a female Persian name (Shahrzad, the story teller) and a male Persian name (Shahryar, the king).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights#Pe...
"The earliest mentions of the Nights refer to it as an Arabic translation from a Persian book, Hezār Afsān (aka Afsaneh or Afsana), meaning 'The Thousand Stories'."
Hezar means 1000. Afsan means fantasy/story. Now it's true that the modern version is called Hezaar-o yek Shab (Thousand and one nights). So possibly that 'one' story is the Arab contribution.
[Filed under the "The Gulf" files]
In the OP, we have a female Persian name (Shahrzad, the story teller) and a male Persian name (Shahryar, the king).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Thousand_and_One_Nights#Pe...
"The earliest mentions of the Nights refer to it as an Arabic translation from a Persian book, Hezār Afsān (aka Afsaneh or Afsana), meaning 'The Thousand Stories'."
Hezar means 1000. Afsan means fantasy/story. Now it's true that the modern version is called Hezaar-o yek Shab (Thousand and one nights). So possibly that 'one' story is the Arab contribution.
[Filed under the "The Gulf" files]
> I seriously wonder if this is still nursing ancient Persian Greek/Roman rivalries and is a byproduct of a chauvinist classical education of the European educated set of 19th century. I find it very strange.
You are overthinking this. It is called Arabian Nights (in some translations) because the stories are translated from Arabic. It is like calling the Brothers Grimm fairy tales German, even though some of the stories may have originated somewhere else.
The 19 century orientalists were certainly chauvinist by modern standards, but did not in particular elevate Arab culture above Persian culture.
Suggesting that Arab culture supplied just one story to the collection makes you the chauvinist. The stories have all kinds of origins - Persian, Indian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Syrian, even European.
You are overthinking this. It is called Arabian Nights (in some translations) because the stories are translated from Arabic. It is like calling the Brothers Grimm fairy tales German, even though some of the stories may have originated somewhere else.
The 19 century orientalists were certainly chauvinist by modern standards, but did not in particular elevate Arab culture above Persian culture.
Suggesting that Arab culture supplied just one story to the collection makes you the chauvinist. The stories have all kinds of origins - Persian, Indian, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Syrian, even European.
The version of these tales that became internationally famous date from a time after Persia had already been under Arabic and Muslim influence for centuries and the Persian language had become replete with Arabic borrowings. It is the same reason that many of the traditions and foreign words borrowed into the cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama region are generally referred to as "Arabo-Persian", even though those peoples were dealing mainly with Persian speakers and rarely met an actual Arab.
As I said this is a minor item.
The major one, which one sees to this day in contemporary European sources (even scholarly matter), is how Arabs translated ancient sources into Arabic. This occulation of (substantial and far reaching) contribution of Iran to "Western civilization" is unique to European sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas...
Arab historians themselves, to their lasting credit, had the intellectual integrity:
“It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars…in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs…thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, ‘If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it”…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture.”
- Muqaddimah, by Abū Zayd ‘Abd ar-Raḥmān ibn Muḥammad ibn Khaldūn al-Ḥaḍramī, translated by F. Rosenthal (III, pp. 311-15, 271-4 [Arabic]; Frye, R.N. (1977). Golden Age of Persia, London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, p.91).
Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters. As I said, this is a remarkable feature of European version of history as far as Iran is concerned.
The major one, which one sees to this day in contemporary European sources (even scholarly matter), is how Arabs translated ancient sources into Arabic. This occulation of (substantial and far reaching) contribution of Iran to "Western civilization" is unique to European sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas...
Arab historians themselves, to their lasting credit, had the intellectual integrity:
“It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars…in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs…thus the founders of grammar were Sibawaih and after him, al-Farisi and Az-Zajjaj. All of them were of Persian descent…they invented rules of (Arabic) grammar…great jurists were Persians… only the Persians engaged in the task of preserving knowledge and writing systematic scholarly works. Thus the truth of the statement of the prophet becomes apparent, ‘If learning were suspended in the highest parts of heaven the Persians would attain it”…The intellectual sciences were also the preserve of the Persians, left alone by the Arabs, who did not cultivate them…as was the case with all crafts…This situation continued in the cities as long as the Persians and Persian countries, Iraq, Khorasan and Transoxiana (modern Central Asia), retained their sedentary culture.”
- Muqaddimah, by Abū Zayd ‘Abd ar-Raḥmān ibn Muḥammad ibn Khaldūn al-Ḥaḍramī, translated by F. Rosenthal (III, pp. 311-15, 271-4 [Arabic]; Frye, R.N. (1977). Golden Age of Persia, London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, p.91).
Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters. As I said, this is a remarkable feature of European version of history as far as Iran is concerned.
> Soviet Russian historians are equally factual regarding these matters
It is within the Soviet Russian research tradition (after all, most publications on the history of the languages and cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama were produced then, when these regions were within the USSR) that the aforementioned term "Arabo-Persian" is heavily used.
Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Persian nationalists who can’t stop banging on about how Persians aren't Arabs. I think many people here are capable of understanding the nuances involved, and it isn't really appropriate for you to continue to claim victimization.
It is within the Soviet Russian research tradition (after all, most publications on the history of the languages and cultures of Central Asia and the Volga–Kama were produced then, when these regions were within the USSR) that the aforementioned term "Arabo-Persian" is heavily used.
Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Persian nationalists who can’t stop banging on about how Persians aren't Arabs. I think many people here are capable of understanding the nuances involved, and it isn't really appropriate for you to continue to claim victimization.
> Your posts on this matter make you appear to be one of those Persian nationalists who can’t stop banging on about how Persians aren't Arabs.
Not correct and borderline ad hom. I am a Muslim and do not care for such ethnic distinctions.
Not correct and borderline ad hom. I am a Muslim and do not care for such ethnic distinctions.
The files at the provided link are dated 2002 and 2016, not 2021. Am I missing something?
The sixth supplement volume was released this year: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/64384
I'm not seeing the last and seventh supplement volume (volume 17 of 17 in total), perhaps that was released recently?
I'm not seeing the last and seventh supplement volume (volume 17 of 17 in total), perhaps that was released recently?
I'm one of the lucky 10,000 who didn't know that the entirety of the Arabian Nights was on Gutenberg.
https://xkcd.com/1053/
https://xkcd.com/1053/
TIL Project Gutenberg is blocked in Germany.
Technically, Project Gutenberg blocks Germany. Anyway this also surprised me last year! Protip: Main PG is blocking DE IPs but mirrors aren't. Unfortunately, [mirrors](https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/81t0ad/project_guten...) don't have the convenient search infra, just the texts. If you can get the ID somehow, then you can navigate to the text in question.
Maybe I missed a more convenient mirror. In which case I'd be really glad for links to convenient mirrors.
Maybe I missed a more convenient mirror. In which case I'd be really glad for links to convenient mirrors.
Cooool! Exactly what I'm looking for. Actually think I've heard of this before (I follow one of the GH contributors) but realized, just now, it's the mirror I am looking for. Thanks!
Johannes Gensfleisch zur Laden zum Gutenberg would be displeased.
I live in a place governed by the military, and they like to block things. But I have no idea why a country like Germany would do that.
This might have something to do with it:
https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html
(Thomas Mann and Alfred Döblin are out of copyright in the USA, but not in Germany, but obviously there's more to it than that because different countries having different copyright durations is a very normal situation.)
https://cand.pglaf.org/germany/index.html
(Thomas Mann and Alfred Döblin are out of copyright in the USA, but not in Germany, but obviously there's more to it than that because different countries having different copyright durations is a very normal situation.)
There is nothing more to it: Project Gutenberg distributed books in Germany that are not in the Public Domain there. The rights holder sued. PG was condemned to stop distributing those books in Germany. PG complied by blocking the whole site in Germany.
No country has the same copyright law as USA. In those other countries, Project Gutenberg has not yet been sued. (Edit: and probably in some countries, people downloading from PG would be the only one in illegality, not PG)
For example Alfred Döblin's and Thomas Mann's books are not in the public domain in all of Europe, in most of South America, or in Australia.
No country has the same copyright law as USA. In those other countries, Project Gutenberg has not yet been sued. (Edit: and probably in some countries, people downloading from PG would be the only one in illegality, not PG)
For example Alfred Döblin's and Thomas Mann's books are not in the public domain in all of Europe, in most of South America, or in Australia.
Because of Mein Kampf perhaps? Then again it's on Amazon, do they block Amazon?
No, that book has been in the public domain in Germany since 2015. Since then several annotated editions have been published.
IANAL, but it might be problematic to publish a modern version without any critical commentary as this could be interpreted as "glorifying naziism and the holocaust in public" which is a crime in Germany (§ 130 StGB [1]).
Before 2015 it was not banned in a political sense. The state of Bavaria claimed Hitlers copyright after the war and did not grant any rights to republish it. Ownership or sale of historical editions was always possible.
The project Gutenberg block is by them because they lost a copyright court case in 2018 (which was about ~20 books by 3 authors). See the other comment with a detailed link. They were not required to deny access to the complete site but only to these specific works.
[1]https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
IANAL, but it might be problematic to publish a modern version without any critical commentary as this could be interpreted as "glorifying naziism and the holocaust in public" which is a crime in Germany (§ 130 StGB [1]).
Before 2015 it was not banned in a political sense. The state of Bavaria claimed Hitlers copyright after the war and did not grant any rights to republish it. Ownership or sale of historical editions was always possible.
The project Gutenberg block is by them because they lost a copyright court case in 2018 (which was about ~20 books by 3 authors). See the other comment with a detailed link. They were not required to deny access to the complete site but only to these specific works.
[1]https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_st...
For more information on the The One Thousand and One Nights, the following BBC radio programme (broadcast just last week) discusses the origins of the stories, the translations, and their enduring popularity. It's a very stimulating discussion. Download as a MP3 if you want to listen offline:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszjwy
Programme description from the above page:
> The One Thousand and One Nights are a collection of fantastical stories of flying carpets, magic and genies whose ancient origins go back to the 7th century or earlier. The tales are told by Scheherazade who uses the power of storytelling night after night to stop her Sultan husband from beheading her.
> These highly influential stories were brought to the West in the 18th century, when more tales like Aladdin and Ali Baba were said to have been added by the French translator, and it has continued to evolve over the centuries. Rajan Datar and guests explore why these stories became so popular around the world and what they mean to us today.
> Joining Rajan is Wen Chin Ouyang, Professor of Arabic at SOAS in London; Dr Sandra Naddaff, senior lecturer in Comparative Literature at Harvard University; and the Iranian TV producer Shabnam Rezaei.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszjwy
Programme description from the above page:
> The One Thousand and One Nights are a collection of fantastical stories of flying carpets, magic and genies whose ancient origins go back to the 7th century or earlier. The tales are told by Scheherazade who uses the power of storytelling night after night to stop her Sultan husband from beheading her.
> These highly influential stories were brought to the West in the 18th century, when more tales like Aladdin and Ali Baba were said to have been added by the French translator, and it has continued to evolve over the centuries. Rajan Datar and guests explore why these stories became so popular around the world and what they mean to us today.
> Joining Rajan is Wen Chin Ouyang, Professor of Arabic at SOAS in London; Dr Sandra Naddaff, senior lecturer in Comparative Literature at Harvard University; and the Iranian TV producer Shabnam Rezaei.
Unfortunately the format of most ebooks at Project Gutenberg is usually really bad. Usable on computer screen, but unusable on eBook readers.
Just checked the "mobi" version of the volume 1 from this link, and it looks like all paragraphs are just walls of texts with no paragraphs and the footnotes don't really work unless you scroll manually. I guess it's better than nothing, but not very comfortable to read.
Usually it's even worse with text from the margins, header than footer getting mixed with the normal text.
Does anybody know if there is a website or project where one could find "curated" or properly formatted books with expired Copyright? Maybe one where other people can collaborate?
Just checked the "mobi" version of the volume 1 from this link, and it looks like all paragraphs are just walls of texts with no paragraphs and the footnotes don't really work unless you scroll manually. I guess it's better than nothing, but not very comfortable to read.
Usually it's even worse with text from the margins, header than footer getting mixed with the normal text.
Does anybody know if there is a website or project where one could find "curated" or properly formatted books with expired Copyright? Maybe one where other people can collaborate?
Standard Ebooks (https://standardebooks.org) is what you’re looking for.
Arabian Nights has been on my list to produce for SE for a couple of years now, but its sheer size is imposing. I’ll probably do it in the not too distant future though.
Did you produce the Edgar Allan Poe Short Fiction collection? I'm reading it right now, it's great! And huge!
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/edgar-allan-poe/short-fict...
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/edgar-allan-poe/short-fict...
Yep! Glad you’re enjoying it. Here are my share of the SE productions: https://www.robinwhittleton.com/books/
Biggest so far (and biggest on SE at 1.2m words) has been Samuel Pepys’ Diary: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary
Biggest so far (and biggest on SE at 1.2m words) has been Samuel Pepys’ Diary: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary
Whoa, SE looks incredible. Thanks for your work on that!
Are there any plans to support non-English ebooks as well?
Edit: Regarding non-English ebooks, I was thinking about books like "Der Vogelflug als Grundlage der Fliegekunst" (Birdflight As The Basis Of Aviation) by Otto Lilienthal (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54565). It's a fantastic book with nice hand-drawn illustrations, and it would deserve being presented/typeset in a beautiful way. Currently available ebooks are mostly bad.
Are there any plans to support non-English ebooks as well?
Edit: Regarding non-English ebooks, I was thinking about books like "Der Vogelflug als Grundlage der Fliegekunst" (Birdflight As The Basis Of Aviation) by Otto Lilienthal (https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54565). It's a fantastic book with nice hand-drawn illustrations, and it would deserve being presented/typeset in a beautiful way. Currently available ebooks are mostly bad.
Sorry, no. Like I said in another comment, a large part of what makes SE good is our manual of style, which is really just applicable to English works. If you want to use the toolchain to produce a novel in another language feel free (removing our logo and name, of course).
Thank you for your efforts!
That book is more than 2600 pages! How long did that take?
That book is more than 2600 pages! How long did that take?
Nearly two years, but I took a bunch of time out to work on smaller pieces. The biggest problem was that Gutenberg had only transcribed about a third of the footnotes, so I spent a long time adding the remaining ones back in.
Great work! Is there any link between this and the Pepys Diary site at https://www.pepysdiary.com (also an awesome resource)?
I had a chat with Phil after I finished, and he sent over a list of transcription problems with Gutenberg that I’d missed which was very kind. But apart from that, no direct collaboration.
So you were transcribing a diary written in a shorthand? Or from a print version?
From scanned original sources. I just opened a random page at archive.org to give you an example:
https://archive.org/details/diaryofsamuelpep01pepy/page/228/...
https://archive.org/details/diaryofsamuelpep01pepy/page/228/...
Do you use OCR? Sorry for the million questions.
No problem! Yes, archive.org has OCRed all the text, but it needs a lot of finessing to bring up the quality to an acceptable standard.
Typically, Standard Ebooks will try to avoid OCR unless it’s something that’s missing from Gutenberg.
Typically, Standard Ebooks will try to avoid OCR unless it’s something that’s missing from Gutenberg.
Thank you for your time!
(If you started some sort of AMA here I'm sure it would be successful.)
(If you started some sort of AMA here I'm sure it would be successful.)
This site is amazing! Thank you!
For those who loved the Andrew Lang rainbow-color fairy tale books, Lang also published a volume of The Arabian Nights, not a translation but a recounting of selected tales. I encountered the Richard Burton commodious 3-volume set as a child. It's amazing that nobody at the time thought to proctor my reading choice, given the racism, misogyny, salaciousness, naughty illustrations, everything delivered in such a matter-of-fact tone and just laid out there. To read it cover-to-cover is actually not terribly fun. There's lots of little folk tale snippets, fables, poetry, and Burton footnoted the hell out of everything.
For those who loved the Andrew Lang rainbow-color fairy tale books, Lang also published a volume of The Arabian Nights, not a translation but a recounting of selected tales. I encountered the Richard Burton commodious 3-volume set as a child. It's amazing that nobody at the time thought to proctor my reading choice, given the racism, misogyny, salaciousness, naughty illustrations, everything delivered in such a matter-of-fact tone and just laid out there. To read it cover-to-cover is actually not terribly fun. There's lots of little folk tale snippets, fables, poetry, and Burton footnoted the hell out of everything.
Perhaps a collaboration?
The Internet need something like this for all languages, not only english.
This question comes up a lot. The source to our production pipeline is GPLed and freely available,[1] but the biggest part of why we produce good work is that we have a high quality manual of style.[2] Unfortunately, that second part is very specific to English, and that’s the difficult part to replicate for other languages.
[1] https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/
[2] https://standardebooks.org/manual/
[1] https://github.com/standardebooks/tools/
[2] https://standardebooks.org/manual/
Not that I doubt you, but what about the manual is very specific to English and wouldn't work for other languages?
From a brief look, the typography
section of the manual is definitely language specific. Different written languages often have a much different typographic convention; depending on the language, different countries using it may have major or minor differences in conventions. And of course, there are different interpretations of the convention; they've included by reference a specific version of the Chicago Manual of Style. For another language, you'd need to at least need a different exhaustive manual to reference, as well as changing or reviewing the specific guidelines.
That's work that really needs to be done by a fluent, literate user of that language, hopefully with background in that language's literature and experience in copyediting, and familiarity with publishing. It's not really work you can demand of someone who did a good job (I assume) of it in English; they won't do a good job of it in another language without deep experience in that language. Developing and publishing the works in the language also needs to be done by people fluent in the language.
The example of the English version can be a guide for other languages, and there's of course room for collaboration on software between languages, but asking the English language project to expand to other languages is unlikely to get good results unless the developers also are fluent in those languages.
That's work that really needs to be done by a fluent, literate user of that language, hopefully with background in that language's literature and experience in copyediting, and familiarity with publishing. It's not really work you can demand of someone who did a good job (I assume) of it in English; they won't do a good job of it in another language without deep experience in that language. Developing and publishing the works in the language also needs to be done by people fluent in the language.
The example of the English version can be a guide for other languages, and there's of course room for collaboration on software between languages, but asking the English language project to expand to other languages is unlikely to get good results unless the developers also are fluent in those languages.
I'm curious, why xhtml instead of LaTeX?
When we edit, we’re literally building a standard ePub3 file, which natively uses XHTML as its document representation. The pipeline then produces alternative versions of the same file. We could work in LaTeX, but it would reduce our contributor count (more people know XHTML than LaTeX) and we’d need to transform it anyway, with the potential of introducing new bugs.
We're working on a fork of Standard Ebooks focusing on Spanish.
We're actually looking for Spanish-speaking collaborators:
https://www.libro.org/
We're actually looking for Spanish-speaking collaborators:
https://www.libro.org/
For Japanese, we have Aozora Bunko [1]
[1] https://www.aozora.gr.jp/
[1] https://www.aozora.gr.jp/
In Poland we have 5649 ebooks done so far by https://wolnelektury.pl/
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Is there an archive of the whole collection? My internet is unreliable and I usually try to get everything offline.
I had a good result by using the text version and running it through LaTex for formatting and then converted it into an ebook format. I think it involved a Perl script for marking sections.
These are sole issues of the reader software, unless of course your Ebook is some kind of closed-down kindle-type device. Coolreader and Koreader are examples of versatile and programmable softwares, which are available on Android and Linux-based E-ink readers.
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This being HN, for some reason, I was expecting the article to be about the pinball.
I thought it would be about the Magic: the Gathering set.
Or at least the Magic: the Gathering set.
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Tepix(1)
Borges suggested Galland might simply have made up the story of Aladdin on his own, others that is might be an original creation by the Maronite storyteller.
Folklorists have pointed out that the set of stories recorded from the storyteller have a number of story tropes more characteristic of European rather than Middle Eastern folk tales.
Wikipedia carefully states: "Aladdin is a folk tale most probably of Middle Eastern origin".