Ask HN: Maybe I'm just not smart enough?
122 comments
>All of them were on combinatorics/algorithms
I have a PhD. I have had titles like "Principal Data Scientist","Senior Manager, Data Science" etc. Most of my colleagues think I am good at what I do. I would absolutely fail an interview where they ask these kinds of questions. I would need to revisit my probability and other textbooks for at least a few months to be able to pass these kind of questions.
Being able to pass these types of interviews is a learned skill. I would recommend you look at it that way and disconnect it from "intelligence" or from the value you can bring as a data scientist.
As far as the slow thinking, most jobs allow you to think slowly and work through things. You can make mistakes and fix them. There is no job where somebody says "We will release the hungry tigers on a plane full of children unless you solve a algorithm problem in 60 seconds."
>In my country, there aren’t many DS internships, so if I fail a few more interviews, not sure if I can find new opportunities soon.
I think this is the root of the issue. If there are only a few internships and lot of applicants, the employers can be as demanding or as harsh as they want. So it's really a reflection of the job situation, not you personally.
I have a PhD. I have had titles like "Principal Data Scientist","Senior Manager, Data Science" etc. Most of my colleagues think I am good at what I do. I would absolutely fail an interview where they ask these kinds of questions. I would need to revisit my probability and other textbooks for at least a few months to be able to pass these kind of questions.
Being able to pass these types of interviews is a learned skill. I would recommend you look at it that way and disconnect it from "intelligence" or from the value you can bring as a data scientist.
As far as the slow thinking, most jobs allow you to think slowly and work through things. You can make mistakes and fix them. There is no job where somebody says "We will release the hungry tigers on a plane full of children unless you solve a algorithm problem in 60 seconds."
>In my country, there aren’t many DS internships, so if I fail a few more interviews, not sure if I can find new opportunities soon.
I think this is the root of the issue. If there are only a few internships and lot of applicants, the employers can be as demanding or as harsh as they want. So it's really a reflection of the job situation, not you personally.
Pre-COVID, a cornerstone of my career progression has been "go where the money is". You can also say that as "go where the jobs are". That only gets you so far, but it can get you pretty far relative to where you started. I think that advice still applies, but maybe less so now than say 18 months ago.
To speak to OP's point, I'd suggest not confusing a lack of opportunity w/ a lack of ability. Interviewing is inefficient, as is trying to impress people you don't know. It's hard to find a good job where there's a ton of opportunity, and I'd struggle with the thought of having to compete for relatively few jobs, too.
To speak to OP's point, I'd suggest not confusing a lack of opportunity w/ a lack of ability. Interviewing is inefficient, as is trying to impress people you don't know. It's hard to find a good job where there's a ton of opportunity, and I'd struggle with the thought of having to compete for relatively few jobs, too.
why would COVID have changed that, just curious?
> I’ve always been average academically, but when needed, simply outworked everybody and got decent grades.
Speaking as someone who easily got good grades without working hard, this is a superpower. Because sooner or later, the "smart" folks finally hit some barrier that they can't brute force with their brains. And when they've gone so long without have to work hard, they haven't built that skill at all. Many never get past the first real hurdle. I've struggled in my professional life to build the discipline I never needed in school.
The fact that you've learned to consistently put real effort into your endeavors will take you much further than any innate intelligence can.
Speaking as someone who easily got good grades without working hard, this is a superpower. Because sooner or later, the "smart" folks finally hit some barrier that they can't brute force with their brains. And when they've gone so long without have to work hard, they haven't built that skill at all. Many never get past the first real hurdle. I've struggled in my professional life to build the discipline I never needed in school.
The fact that you've learned to consistently put real effort into your endeavors will take you much further than any innate intelligence can.
There's a reason they say it's the "C" students who go on to be the most successful in business, and the reason typically given is they learned how to work to get their grade. When they encounter obstacles at work they know how to work through it. As you say, those who got "A"s are more likely to rely on their brains and so when they encounter obstacles if they can't easily blast through it with their brains then they're stuck. Meanwhile the "C" student will just work through it and get it done. I've seen this happen numerous times.
OTOH, if you're the "A" student who can work hard and not just rely on your brains, wow...
OTOH, if you're the "A" student who can work hard and not just rely on your brains, wow...
Huh, I always had the opposite impression. The A students weren’t necessarily the brightest but we’re good at diligently following directions, whereas there may be a population among the C students who had the brains, but were off doing their own thing this their grades suffered.
I know someone like this, graduated top of her class at a top 5 CS program without putting in much time working or studying. Super smart. But things that are non academic that just require hard work like exercise or playing an instrument are basically impossible for her because she never developed a work ethic and isn’t used to practicing.
Latching on to this comment, I got "okay" grades, they were "fine", and "I passed I guess" in my mid twenties with a college degree.
However, by that time I realized I had a knack for writing code, a knack that pretty much everyone I've gone to school with in the decade preceding it did not have. They struggled to 'get into' programming, to get into that flow of writing code, to know what to look for.
I consider that my talent. It's been a good ten years now, and I'm still mediocre I think - but that's because I sorta know what I don't know, what I'm not good at.
I'd suck at the currently 'hip' technologies - AI, data science, blockchain - but that's all right because a lot of those are just buzzwords people put in job adverts to try and attract people.
I suck at those too, because I'm simply not interested in them. Don't pursue a career in something you're not actively interested in. It has to click, it has to make sense. And a lot of leetcode or data science just does not click or make sense.
I can manage fine with an SQL database, that's about it.
Anyway, moral of the story is, mediocrity is fine, you're still ahead of most.
Also also, disregard Mensa and IQ tests. Mensa is a company that wants to make people feel smart and better than others so they can flow subscriptions, books with fancy names and shitty dick shaking products their way.
IQ tests only measure how good you are at IQ tests, I'm sure you can practice them. In the end, they mean nothing; if anything it's a weird dick shaking contest where people take one IQ test, get a high score, and live off that high for the rest of their life. They usually get jaded though because a high score on an IQ test doesn't mean shit. It's like being called 'gifted' as a child, it paints you - and your self-image - for the rest of your life, and it can make you jaded when it turns out it's not actually worth much.
Anyway, that's not a problem I had, I was called average once (at a school doctor, in relation to height and weight) and that was just fine by me.
However, by that time I realized I had a knack for writing code, a knack that pretty much everyone I've gone to school with in the decade preceding it did not have. They struggled to 'get into' programming, to get into that flow of writing code, to know what to look for.
I consider that my talent. It's been a good ten years now, and I'm still mediocre I think - but that's because I sorta know what I don't know, what I'm not good at.
I'd suck at the currently 'hip' technologies - AI, data science, blockchain - but that's all right because a lot of those are just buzzwords people put in job adverts to try and attract people.
I suck at those too, because I'm simply not interested in them. Don't pursue a career in something you're not actively interested in. It has to click, it has to make sense. And a lot of leetcode or data science just does not click or make sense.
I can manage fine with an SQL database, that's about it.
Anyway, moral of the story is, mediocrity is fine, you're still ahead of most.
Also also, disregard Mensa and IQ tests. Mensa is a company that wants to make people feel smart and better than others so they can flow subscriptions, books with fancy names and shitty dick shaking products their way.
IQ tests only measure how good you are at IQ tests, I'm sure you can practice them. In the end, they mean nothing; if anything it's a weird dick shaking contest where people take one IQ test, get a high score, and live off that high for the rest of their life. They usually get jaded though because a high score on an IQ test doesn't mean shit. It's like being called 'gifted' as a child, it paints you - and your self-image - for the rest of your life, and it can make you jaded when it turns out it's not actually worth much.
Anyway, that's not a problem I had, I was called average once (at a school doctor, in relation to height and weight) and that was just fine by me.
This. I had very loving parents but i often wish they had shut up with the telling me I was special and smart and stuff. It was definitely a detriment to my life to be essentially taught that i could "IQ" my way through everything.
Ironically, this is the reason why I support schools for high-IQ kids. When everyone is special, no one is. If you are a high-IQ kid surrounded by high-IQ kids, the only way to get ahead is to work hard. This builds the right habits naturally. (Also, prepares you better for a career where you will be competing with other smart people.)
If you are a high-IQ kid surrounded by average kids, regardless of what your parents told you, you probably will notice that you can get the best grades without actually trying hard.
If you are a high-IQ kid surrounded by average kids, regardless of what your parents told you, you probably will notice that you can get the best grades without actually trying hard.
Might this indicate a problem with the grading scheme? I see your point, am a beneficiary of such efforts in elementary school, and we’re all on this earth together, so learning how to collaborate across the spectrum seems important. I want everyone to have timely intervention in school so they can all be engaged with their education.
Grading is just the tip of the iceberg. Perfect grades are easy when there is little to learn. Kids with high IQ are wasting their time at school, because they could be conveniently learning at much greater speed and depth. So, on one hand people are happy "yay equality! no elitism!", on the other hand we deprive the smartest people of the next generation of knowledge and good working habits and we make them suffer from boredom.
Collaboration is also important among the high-IQ people; that's what they'll later need to do at the workplace, won't they? Here again, being the only high-IQ kid in the classroom leads to some bad habits. You learn to be the one that almost always comes with the best solution, and the one that usually has to do the hardest parts if you want them to be done well. At workplace, that translates to inability to follow other people's proposals ("too many chieftains, and not enough Indians") and inability to delegate.
Allowing high-IQ kids to be surrounded by other high-IQ kids means giving them the same chance that the average kid is given at the average schoool: the chance to learn how to socialize and cooperate with their intellectual peers. Sadly, this is considered controversial by many people... although I am sure that if you tried to transfer their average child into a school where all other kids are low-IQ, they would strongly object and call it an abuse, and give you pretty much the arguments I gave here (the need to socialize with peers, unlock the full potential, prepare for future career).
Collaboration is also important among the high-IQ people; that's what they'll later need to do at the workplace, won't they? Here again, being the only high-IQ kid in the classroom leads to some bad habits. You learn to be the one that almost always comes with the best solution, and the one that usually has to do the hardest parts if you want them to be done well. At workplace, that translates to inability to follow other people's proposals ("too many chieftains, and not enough Indians") and inability to delegate.
Allowing high-IQ kids to be surrounded by other high-IQ kids means giving them the same chance that the average kid is given at the average schoool: the chance to learn how to socialize and cooperate with their intellectual peers. Sadly, this is considered controversial by many people... although I am sure that if you tried to transfer their average child into a school where all other kids are low-IQ, they would strongly object and call it an abuse, and give you pretty much the arguments I gave here (the need to socialize with peers, unlock the full potential, prepare for future career).
I relate to that, as a student who always had a book to retreat to after completing whatever busywork, and am fortunate to have made and kept a few close friends since middle school, bonding over shared interests and resonant mental frequency. I want this for everyone, at least to the degree that they want it for themselves, regardless of intelligence. Perhaps if early childhood education is done well (where parents are guided to help teach the children emotionally and intellectually, to minimize trauma and promote a sense of being part of the whole world), we can all be in school together, interrelating on more levels than simply IQ.
> Perfect grades are easy when there is little to learn. Kids with high IQ are wasting their time at school, because they could be conveniently learning at much greater speed and depth.
In the words of Rick Sanchez: “school’s not a place for smart people.”
In the words of Rick Sanchez: “school’s not a place for smart people.”
Well, I think grading is not really that bad, you have to set a bar somewhere. But I do believe school and grading are just seen as a knowledge transfer scheme, where we could do better. Maybe if grading on PE class or Art, or some projects where team work is important, we could stimulate the kids to do better on a whole array of skills.
Same here. I scored well during my early diploma and slacked off. Then I transferred to an elite college and was swamped. That pain later taught me how to be a lot more efficient when learning, though. I doubt I'd be the same person if I had scored through my final years in college.
I can't help you with passing interviews, but if you really are high-conscientiousness (and smart enough to do at least averagely well academically), then there's probably a place for you in industry. The industry has plenty of brilliant-but-unconscientious developers; I'm sure many companies would benefit from having more conscientious-but-not-brilliant developers to balance their team out.
Brilliance matters more in job interviews; conscientiousness matters more in the job itself.
Brilliance matters more in job interviews; conscientiousness matters more in the job itself.
I agree with this. There are lots of people who just want to heads down code all day. They need help from someone who understands what they're doing and can interface with a client. Tons of program management, product, and requirements jobs out there. Also consider sales and sales engineering. Sales people love having a more-technical side kick they can show off in polite company. You don't have to be that smart or that technical to outclass 80% of coin operated commission chasers...
Many jobs after the first are often gained through colleagues you've worked with. It is very important to be a helpful and conscientious person to work with.
From everything you have said, I have no doubt about your intelligence. Being able to communicate this clearly in a second language is an impressive and employable skill on its own.
Combinatorics and algorithms are specific skills that you need some experience of (nobody has an innate talent for these, without learning them), and some coaching would be useful here if you haven't had formal education in them.
But - if you like making physical stuff, then maybe data science is not your passion? Your projects sound impressive but don't seem directly relevant to what you are applying for. If you have projects, but none that are relevant, this may open questions about your suitability for the field. I feel that these might be more valued in another field, such as robotics?
Combinatorics and algorithms are specific skills that you need some experience of (nobody has an innate talent for these, without learning them), and some coaching would be useful here if you haven't had formal education in them.
But - if you like making physical stuff, then maybe data science is not your passion? Your projects sound impressive but don't seem directly relevant to what you are applying for. If you have projects, but none that are relevant, this may open questions about your suitability for the field. I feel that these might be more valued in another field, such as robotics?
I suspect that, with the exception of the truly mentally handicapped, there's nobody that's literally not smart enough to produce good, solid working software. There are, however, people who give up because there's so much that you have to not just learn, but truly internalize. I'm smart enough to solve calculus problems, but not smart enough to make revolutionary advances in the field of mathematics. Similarly, I probably won't invent the next PageRank, but there's plenty of room for people who can study the techniques, grind through the examples and apply them.
False I regularly see developers producing negative value at FAANGS. The code they write is just bad and lacks common sense, isnt logical. And they are trying
> I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details. I also forget things all the time
Me too. I don’t have any magic solution; mostly I’ve accumulated lots of little adaptations to help me overcome.
- I keep a checklist of things I need to remember or do in the future.
- I’m trying to quit social media and other things that give me quick dopamine hits in order to improve my attention span.
- I don’t try to force my distracted mind to stay focused, but I try to marshal it towards things that are simultaneously interesting to me and yet also valuable, like software hobby projects. If I need a social media fix, I come here or to lobste.rs where the material is more edifying than Twitter or Reddit.
Over the years this has paid off as my software knowledge and skills are well beyond those of my peers and my salary keeps climbing. In time I’m finding that things which were once boring (e.g., software project management) are now interesting enough that they can serve as these sorts of “valuable distractions”.
There are lots of areas in which I am deficient, but I have areas in which I excel and I’m always learning how to leverage my strengths to deliver more value such that I more than compensate for my weaknesses.
Even those of us who aren’t innately brilliant can add lots of value and thus have lucrative careers. No quick fixes, but the key thing in my experience is to always be learning and growing, trying out different things to overcome your obstacles, etc. I hope this helps.
Me too. I don’t have any magic solution; mostly I’ve accumulated lots of little adaptations to help me overcome.
- I keep a checklist of things I need to remember or do in the future.
- I’m trying to quit social media and other things that give me quick dopamine hits in order to improve my attention span.
- I don’t try to force my distracted mind to stay focused, but I try to marshal it towards things that are simultaneously interesting to me and yet also valuable, like software hobby projects. If I need a social media fix, I come here or to lobste.rs where the material is more edifying than Twitter or Reddit.
Over the years this has paid off as my software knowledge and skills are well beyond those of my peers and my salary keeps climbing. In time I’m finding that things which were once boring (e.g., software project management) are now interesting enough that they can serve as these sorts of “valuable distractions”.
There are lots of areas in which I am deficient, but I have areas in which I excel and I’m always learning how to leverage my strengths to deliver more value such that I more than compensate for my weaknesses.
Even those of us who aren’t innately brilliant can add lots of value and thus have lucrative careers. No quick fixes, but the key thing in my experience is to always be learning and growing, trying out different things to overcome your obstacles, etc. I hope this helps.
I don't think focusing on stuff like IQ or grades is reasonable or healthly
You're about to graduate from "prestigious uni", so definitely intelligence is not something that's handicapping you.
How much hours did you put into DS in last 12 months? 30? 300? 1300? what's the scale
>I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details.
Maybe there's something distracting you?
Turn off facebook, discord, tell parents/home mates to do not disrupt you, turn off phone, ban hackernews/reddit, turn off steam, windows notifications
You're about to graduate from "prestigious uni", so definitely intelligence is not something that's handicapping you.
How much hours did you put into DS in last 12 months? 30? 300? 1300? what's the scale
>I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details.
Maybe there's something distracting you?
Turn off facebook, discord, tell parents/home mates to do not disrupt you, turn off phone, ban hackernews/reddit, turn off steam, windows notifications
- speak to a specialist about your difficulty concentrating and see if your symptoms are consistent with ADHD
- failing interviews is completely normal - especially if the interview covers broad theory or includes probability questions which aren't intuitive - practice more interview questions and don't stop interviewing
- don't worry about what your IQ is. One of your scores puts you in the 17th percentile for IQ, the other puts you in the 98th percentile. That tells you a lot about how reliable or useful IQ tests are
- getting your first job in data science is hard. I don't know anything about the job market in Russia but in the UK (and the US from what I hear) there are very few entry-level positions and many (way too many) people who are competing for them
- failing interviews is completely normal - especially if the interview covers broad theory or includes probability questions which aren't intuitive - practice more interview questions and don't stop interviewing
- don't worry about what your IQ is. One of your scores puts you in the 17th percentile for IQ, the other puts you in the 98th percentile. That tells you a lot about how reliable or useful IQ tests are
- getting your first job in data science is hard. I don't know anything about the job market in Russia but in the UK (and the US from what I hear) there are very few entry-level positions and many (way too many) people who are competing for them
I second the recommendation to looking into ADHD. That might also explain inconsistent results on the IQ tests. You are smart, but you are losing focus when doing them.
However, in some countries ADHD is not taken as seriously especially if you are just hyperactive and not inattentive. I don't know about Russia. You might have to do your own research.
However, in some countries ADHD is not taken as seriously especially if you are just hyperactive and not inattentive. I don't know about Russia. You might have to do your own research.
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> in some countries ADHD is not taken as seriously especially if you are just hyperactive and not inattentive
Or if you only started to show symptoms in adulthood.
Or if you only started to show symptoms in adulthood.
This is exactly what Imposter Syndrome is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
Intelligence itself is an abstract concept. There are so many things that go into it, and nobody has all of it. Maybe one person every 10 years, but they live in a garden shed and go insane. My partner and I are both "smart" people, but in very different ways. My memory is shit, theirs is fantastic. I struggle to remember what groceries to pick up, they can count cards. But based on that one factor nobody would say that I'm a dumb person.
When you're starting out, things are always going to be tough. When I was a college grad it took me 40 interviews to get a job. Unfortunately, there's a disconnect between recruiters and reality - don't get discouraged.
There's something kind of awful in 'tech culture' that rewards the boy genius rather than somebody willing to put in the work. You don't walk onto a construction site and see a few expertly laid bricks and everybody gone for the day. Work ethic is the most important thing, in my opinion. If you have that, you'll be successful.
Intelligence itself is an abstract concept. There are so many things that go into it, and nobody has all of it. Maybe one person every 10 years, but they live in a garden shed and go insane. My partner and I are both "smart" people, but in very different ways. My memory is shit, theirs is fantastic. I struggle to remember what groceries to pick up, they can count cards. But based on that one factor nobody would say that I'm a dumb person.
When you're starting out, things are always going to be tough. When I was a college grad it took me 40 interviews to get a job. Unfortunately, there's a disconnect between recruiters and reality - don't get discouraged.
There's something kind of awful in 'tech culture' that rewards the boy genius rather than somebody willing to put in the work. You don't walk onto a construction site and see a few expertly laid bricks and everybody gone for the day. Work ethic is the most important thing, in my opinion. If you have that, you'll be successful.
Man I been working in a tech job I got without even a degree for two years. I was literally told by the HR dept that the boss was set on hiring me as soon as we met because I was apparently so far above every other candidate.
Still I feel imposter syndrome like any day now they’ll work out I’m not as great as they think I am and I’ll lose my career.
Totally irrational but I got low self-esteem.
I also have ADHD among other things but the Dexedrine helps me focus on anything. Feels like Limitless pills.
Still I feel imposter syndrome like any day now they’ll work out I’m not as great as they think I am and I’ll lose my career.
Totally irrational but I got low self-esteem.
I also have ADHD among other things but the Dexedrine helps me focus on anything. Feels like Limitless pills.
Interviewing is a skill, you just need to learn it. The easiest way to learn it is practicing it.
I know the feeling, I’ve failed several interviews, most of them I was not able to answer simple questions, that feels devastating.
Emotions and anxiety take big part of it. Don’t worry too much about failed interviews, take note of everything you were insecure during the interview, later become an expert on those questions and try again.
Each interview could bring new challenges, but you will get to a point where you know what to expect, that will make it easier on the anxiety, and it will free your mind to use your brain for the actual questions and not insecurities inside your mind.
Keep pushing!
I know the feeling, I’ve failed several interviews, most of them I was not able to answer simple questions, that feels devastating.
Emotions and anxiety take big part of it. Don’t worry too much about failed interviews, take note of everything you were insecure during the interview, later become an expert on those questions and try again.
Each interview could bring new challenges, but you will get to a point where you know what to expect, that will make it easier on the anxiety, and it will free your mind to use your brain for the actual questions and not insecurities inside your mind.
Keep pushing!
> I’m a 3rd-year student at a university which is considered prestigious here (Russia)
I'm assuming your first language is Russian and that you're speaking English as a second language. If true, you're writing is excellent. Producing something of this clarity and quality, in a second language, using a different alphabet, shows considerable skill and intelligence.
Interviews can be frustrating. There are some skills you can learn and practice that will help you be better at interviews. But also, interviewers can be bad at conducting interviews and so how well you do can be outside your control.
There are some aspects of interviews that some people find really challenging. Many people are nervous and anxious during interviews and this affects performance. Interviews need you to "read someone's mind" - they've asked a question and you have to try to understand what they're looking for in your answer. Interview practice can help with this.
Good luck!
I'm assuming your first language is Russian and that you're speaking English as a second language. If true, you're writing is excellent. Producing something of this clarity and quality, in a second language, using a different alphabet, shows considerable skill and intelligence.
Interviews can be frustrating. There are some skills you can learn and practice that will help you be better at interviews. But also, interviewers can be bad at conducting interviews and so how well you do can be outside your control.
There are some aspects of interviews that some people find really challenging. Many people are nervous and anxious during interviews and this affects performance. Interviews need you to "read someone's mind" - they've asked a question and you have to try to understand what they're looking for in your answer. Interview practice can help with this.
Good luck!
If you've made it to your third year at a prestigious university you're clearly not lacking intelligence or ability.
For what it's worth, I ended up dropping out of my second year at a prestigious university in the US and ultimately still ended up getting my degree and finding a path to a successful professional career. I spent a very long time trying to go "against the grain" by focusing on dual degrees in Physics and Art rather than just focusing in on purely CS degree because programming was my "hobby" and I didn't want my hobby to become my career.
Have you considered if Data Science really suits your natural inclinations / drive? There are so many areas of software development that you can be wildly successful in without being a mathematician or memorizing algorithms.
Spend some time thinking about what you've been doing in personal projects and how you can use that to focus in on what what actually drove you to want to build them. Additionally - there are many organizations who do not utilize the whiteboarding type interview format that you're struggling with and will be FAR more interested in hearing you speak to your personal projects and how you've built them.
For what it's worth, I ended up dropping out of my second year at a prestigious university in the US and ultimately still ended up getting my degree and finding a path to a successful professional career. I spent a very long time trying to go "against the grain" by focusing on dual degrees in Physics and Art rather than just focusing in on purely CS degree because programming was my "hobby" and I didn't want my hobby to become my career.
Have you considered if Data Science really suits your natural inclinations / drive? There are so many areas of software development that you can be wildly successful in without being a mathematician or memorizing algorithms.
Spend some time thinking about what you've been doing in personal projects and how you can use that to focus in on what what actually drove you to want to build them. Additionally - there are many organizations who do not utilize the whiteboarding type interview format that you're struggling with and will be FAR more interested in hearing you speak to your personal projects and how you've built them.
I've worked in tech consulting for seven years now, and I don't consider myself overly smart, but I have been relatively successful. Not because of how smart I am but because of how I can work with others and pick up new technologies and projects quickly enough.
When working with college grads, I don't expect them to solve what I throw at them or even be able to do all their tasks independently. I am looking to see if they ask questions about the problem and adapt when they change or evolve.
Try not to focus on your intelligence or how smart you are being what is holding you back or a problem. You are more than just your intelligence in one area. Your willpower to get it done when you face a challenge will carry you farther than your raw intelligence alone.
Many intelligent people can't see the bigger picture, adapt, or work on something outside their comfort area.
The more hung up you are on what you're "not", the more you will drag yourself down with it. Choose to focus on what you've accomplished, what you can contribute, your potential to be valuable to a company, and your potential to learn and grow.
I am sure you are being too hard on yourself and not giving yourself enough credit.
When working with college grads, I don't expect them to solve what I throw at them or even be able to do all their tasks independently. I am looking to see if they ask questions about the problem and adapt when they change or evolve.
Try not to focus on your intelligence or how smart you are being what is holding you back or a problem. You are more than just your intelligence in one area. Your willpower to get it done when you face a challenge will carry you farther than your raw intelligence alone.
Many intelligent people can't see the bigger picture, adapt, or work on something outside their comfort area.
The more hung up you are on what you're "not", the more you will drag yourself down with it. Choose to focus on what you've accomplished, what you can contribute, your potential to be valuable to a company, and your potential to learn and grow.
I am sure you are being too hard on yourself and not giving yourself enough credit.
Your statement "I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details. I also forget things all the time" sounds similar ADHD, but it would be best to talk to a doctor about that to help you out.
My only regret from talking to a doctor and getting on Adderall is not doing it sooner. Truly life-changing for those who need it.
Thirding this. I was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid but for some reason was never offered meds. Got reassessed as an adult while I was seeing a psych for other stuff and got a script for Dexedrine. Never looked back since. I don’t think I could do my job without this stuff. I also drive a lot more safely which is a testament to how much it really helps my concentration.
Completely agreed -- If you think you have ADHD, please get tested and find a doctor who can help you through the process of finding the medication and dosage that works best for you. It's not worth suffering through life and feeling like a failure because your brain chemistry doesn't work the same as most people.
There was a thread the other day on HN where the majority of posters shared very negative views on using medication to treat ADHD, many stating that you will become addicted and dependent on the medication.
I need to wear prescription lenses or contacts on a daily basis in order to function, yet I've never heard anyone complain about becoming "dependent" or "addicted" to prescription optics. In my opinion, there's a double standard here simply because we're talking about medication.
There was a thread the other day on HN where the majority of posters shared very negative views on using medication to treat ADHD, many stating that you will become addicted and dependent on the medication.
I need to wear prescription lenses or contacts on a daily basis in order to function, yet I've never heard anyone complain about becoming "dependent" or "addicted" to prescription optics. In my opinion, there's a double standard here simply because we're talking about medication.
Have there been side effects from the use of ADHD medication in your experience? How much do you pay for this annually?
The comparison to prescription lenses isn't really accurate. Almost every lens wearer I know (myself included) do not wear lenses all day as they strain your eyes. They have a backup pair of glasses that can be more comfortable and provide the exact same level of visual perception.
The comparison to prescription lenses isn't really accurate. Almost every lens wearer I know (myself included) do not wear lenses all day as they strain your eyes. They have a backup pair of glasses that can be more comfortable and provide the exact same level of visual perception.
Side effects are minor (sometimes I get a little irritable after work as it's wearing off) and the prescription is $10/month.
But my glasses are on from when I wake up until I go to bed, and I've never felt any eye strain from them. You shouldn't need a backup pair for that reason, there's probably something wrong with your prescription.
But my glasses are on from when I wake up until I go to bed, and I've never felt any eye strain from them. You shouldn't need a backup pair for that reason, there's probably something wrong with your prescription.
I meant contact lens, as I thought that's what you were referring to. Contact lenses wear out and need replacing like ADHD pills, while eyeglasses do not.
Do you think Isaac Newton would pass these interviews because he had a high IQ? He would be lost...
I basically disagree with every assumption you've made about yourself. All of the evidence you've provided points to your intelligence.
There is no miracle ability to understand data science[1]. It just takes interest and time. You should only move to another field if it interests you more.
You did say something though that weighs particularly on me.
> I genuinely feel I’m thinking too slow in general, always felt.
This is one of my insecurities as well. Not just mentally but physically as well. I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as quickness. Its just a fault of our first-person perspective of the world. But I don't really know for sure.
For what its worth, my assessment of you is that you are an intelligent person and that you could become a data scientist should you choose to do so. It will take time and effort but that is expected.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIDLcaQVMqw
I basically disagree with every assumption you've made about yourself. All of the evidence you've provided points to your intelligence.
There is no miracle ability to understand data science[1]. It just takes interest and time. You should only move to another field if it interests you more.
You did say something though that weighs particularly on me.
> I genuinely feel I’m thinking too slow in general, always felt.
This is one of my insecurities as well. Not just mentally but physically as well. I've come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as quickness. Its just a fault of our first-person perspective of the world. But I don't really know for sure.
For what its worth, my assessment of you is that you are an intelligent person and that you could become a data scientist should you choose to do so. It will take time and effort but that is expected.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIDLcaQVMqw
Your post suggests high conscientiousness, logical thinking and self-inquiry. These are worth more than almost anything.
Formal environments are not always great at bringing out the best in people. It's perfectly normal not to have a fixed direction and to harbour self-doubt, particularly at your age.
Cross-disciplinary thinking and affinities are a sign of intelligence, not the opposite.
If, after substantial consideration, the environment isn't doing it for you, then consider changing the environment - relentlessly if necessary - until it does.
Formal environments are not always great at bringing out the best in people. It's perfectly normal not to have a fixed direction and to harbour self-doubt, particularly at your age.
Cross-disciplinary thinking and affinities are a sign of intelligence, not the opposite.
If, after substantial consideration, the environment isn't doing it for you, then consider changing the environment - relentlessly if necessary - until it does.
I’ve always been average academically, but when needed, simply outworked everybody and got decent grades.
I tried to find reliable IQ tests online: got 86 and 135 on two different ones, have no idea what to make of it.
This is extremely typical of someone who is very bright and also has a disability. The term for that is twice exceptional.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twice_exceptional
In such cases, their strengths mask their weaknesses and their weaknesses hide their strengths. They are prone to having average grades while finding some things very hard and others silly easy.
In such cases, if the disability can be identified, it can be extremely empowering and life works much better once that part is identified and appropriate accommodation arranged.
I tried to find reliable IQ tests online: got 86 and 135 on two different ones, have no idea what to make of it.
This is extremely typical of someone who is very bright and also has a disability. The term for that is twice exceptional.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twice_exceptional
In such cases, their strengths mask their weaknesses and their weaknesses hide their strengths. They are prone to having average grades while finding some things very hard and others silly easy.
In such cases, if the disability can be identified, it can be extremely empowering and life works much better once that part is identified and appropriate accommodation arranged.
> The disabilities are varied: dyslexia, visual or auditory processing disorder, obsessive–compulsive disorder, sensory processing disorder, autism spectrum disorder, Tourette syndrome, or any other disability interfering with the student's ability to learn effectively in a traditional environment.
The “traditional” learning environment has never been engineered to be compatible with what we scientifically know about how people learn.
Therefore, this should be reframed as what it actually is - “a disadvantage in the context of a specific competitive environment”
The “traditional” learning environment has never been engineered to be compatible with what we scientifically know about how people learn.
Therefore, this should be reframed as what it actually is - “a disadvantage in the context of a specific competitive environment”
A standardized IQ test is divided into 4 parts. 2 verbal and 2 non-verbal.
It’s perfectly possible for a person to score >130 on the verbal ones, and <80 on non-verbal or vice versa. Scores like this could be indicators for ADHD, NVLD, autism and a number of other conditions.
It’s perfectly possible for a person to score >130 on the verbal ones, and <80 on non-verbal or vice versa. Scores like this could be indicators for ADHD, NVLD, autism and a number of other conditions.
1. This is part of russian interview process. You are in debt to them that they even invited you for an interview. Seeing you fail makes some dumb interviewers happy. Don't fall for this.
2. Learn these stupid interview questions. Loads of books on this subject.
3. Data science is falling everywhere plus on your first ds job you will most likely just do data cleaning. So rather come up with some sort of useful data science service that you can offer clients and small companies.
2. Learn these stupid interview questions. Loads of books on this subject.
3. Data science is falling everywhere plus on your first ds job you will most likely just do data cleaning. So rather come up with some sort of useful data science service that you can offer clients and small companies.
It's really tough to say. Online IQ tests are notoriously unreliable, so I wouldn't sweat that too much. And if you average out your two scores, you still get about 110 which is above average (IQ is defined so that 100 is the mean). Also consider that your "low" score would put you within one standard deviation of the mean (stddev for IQ is 15), and your "high" score puts your three stddev's above the mean. Being within one stddev either way would put you in the same overall intelligence "bucket" as 68% of the people in the world, which isn't bad. And you may well be higher. Consider that that "high" score puts you three stddevs above the mean, which would make you a real outlier and far more intelligent than average! So yeah, I wouldn't walk around assuming that you're fundamentally lacking in intelligence, barring some other evidence to suggest so. :-)
As for the rest, it's very possible that your problem is rooted in either your approach to preparation for the interviews, interview anxiety, or - as other have mentioned - possibly ADHD or something.
I will just say this: I've often found that ability to communicate clearly correlates well with observed intelligence (that is, people who communicate clearly are often good at "doing stuff" productively for various definitions of "doing stuff"). And your communication here, in English, which I'm assuming isn't your first language if you're from Russia, is good enough to make me think that "lack of raw intelligence" is probably not a problem. Yes, that's very subjective and vague, so take it for what it's worth.
One last random thought: I agree with the folks who said "see a doctor about possible ADHD". But in the event that you either don't want to do that, or can't do that for any reason, one thing you might try is consuming a little L-Theanine and caffeine together. The combo is quite popular in the nootropics world and is reputed to help with focus when studying and suchlike. I've used that myself and my subjective feeling is that it does help at least a little.
As for the rest, it's very possible that your problem is rooted in either your approach to preparation for the interviews, interview anxiety, or - as other have mentioned - possibly ADHD or something.
I will just say this: I've often found that ability to communicate clearly correlates well with observed intelligence (that is, people who communicate clearly are often good at "doing stuff" productively for various definitions of "doing stuff"). And your communication here, in English, which I'm assuming isn't your first language if you're from Russia, is good enough to make me think that "lack of raw intelligence" is probably not a problem. Yes, that's very subjective and vague, so take it for what it's worth.
One last random thought: I agree with the folks who said "see a doctor about possible ADHD". But in the event that you either don't want to do that, or can't do that for any reason, one thing you might try is consuming a little L-Theanine and caffeine together. The combo is quite popular in the nootropics world and is reputed to help with focus when studying and suchlike. I've used that myself and my subjective feeling is that it does help at least a little.
I'm undergoing ADHD treatment myself and the main medications are pretty much meth lite. As long as OP keeps up their amazing discipline I'm sure they will know how to direct the extra focus any stimulant can offer. Proper sleep maintenance is a must too, though.
I was a subpar non-engineering student at college, never exceleed in any academic pursuit.
Didnt know what i wanted to do with my life for career, ended up wasting 4 years of my life working dead end jobs, then transitioned into software engineering, much happier now.
I would reccomend you write down a timeline, how many years are you willing to study/attempt to become a X, or get X job, before you would be okay giving up with that goal and doing plan B instead. Work your butt off until that timeline expires, and then, if you gave your best effort, you can be proud of your attempt but it simply wasnt in the cards for you.
Sounds like you've already been able to get some interviews for the positions you desire.
if i were you i would set a goal to apply to many more desirable positions, consider widening the scope of what a desirable position is to you. I would set a goal of applying to ten internships/jobs a day, even if these roles arent the ideal positions, your interview skills will improve and maybe youll be able to set up a job/internship to train you/pay you while you attempt to improve your skills in non-work hours.
Sounds like you have a confidence problem as well, dont check IQ tests online.
I beleive russias economy isnt doing so great. I would attempt to plan venturing into EU, USA, or some other better job market post-uni, lots of people do that after uni because their home countries lacked opportunities! Both my parents did.
Best of luck!
Didnt know what i wanted to do with my life for career, ended up wasting 4 years of my life working dead end jobs, then transitioned into software engineering, much happier now.
I would reccomend you write down a timeline, how many years are you willing to study/attempt to become a X, or get X job, before you would be okay giving up with that goal and doing plan B instead. Work your butt off until that timeline expires, and then, if you gave your best effort, you can be proud of your attempt but it simply wasnt in the cards for you.
Sounds like you've already been able to get some interviews for the positions you desire.
if i were you i would set a goal to apply to many more desirable positions, consider widening the scope of what a desirable position is to you. I would set a goal of applying to ten internships/jobs a day, even if these roles arent the ideal positions, your interview skills will improve and maybe youll be able to set up a job/internship to train you/pay you while you attempt to improve your skills in non-work hours.
Sounds like you have a confidence problem as well, dont check IQ tests online.
I beleive russias economy isnt doing so great. I would attempt to plan venturing into EU, USA, or some other better job market post-uni, lots of people do that after uni because their home countries lacked opportunities! Both my parents did.
Best of luck!
I'm sure it's not you. It's just the supply and demand problems in the industry that make companies picky. Actually, there are a lot of people doing data science for corporations who feel disillusioned because most of the data science jobs are in fact not science, instead, those are just grunt works. If you can go to a prestigious university in Russia (a country with prestigious math education), you can definitely be qualified for those jobs - again, it's just a supply and demand thing.
I would suggest you not only try to work hard, but also keep an eye on connections - maybe try to find someone who graduated from the university to get referrals. Or you can also try fallback to work as web developers or any skill that is popular in Russia. I don't believe all of them require CS degrees. Try to grab some skills in those fields etc. If you can provide value for them, I see no reason not to hire you.
Also, for the "I have trouble focusing" part I advise you to try to see if you have ADHD. Though unfortunately, I assume similar to the country where I live, Adderall as the best medicine might not be available in Russia.
Please forget about IQ and Mensa, those puzzles mean nothing, as those are not only extremely narrow ways to look at intelligence, but also gameable like interview problems.
I would suggest you not only try to work hard, but also keep an eye on connections - maybe try to find someone who graduated from the university to get referrals. Or you can also try fallback to work as web developers or any skill that is popular in Russia. I don't believe all of them require CS degrees. Try to grab some skills in those fields etc. If you can provide value for them, I see no reason not to hire you.
Also, for the "I have trouble focusing" part I advise you to try to see if you have ADHD. Though unfortunately, I assume similar to the country where I live, Adderall as the best medicine might not be available in Russia.
Please forget about IQ and Mensa, those puzzles mean nothing, as those are not only extremely narrow ways to look at intelligence, but also gameable like interview problems.
Intelligence is not about IQ. It's about heuristics and intuition.
IQ is mostly a pseudo-science, it doesn't hold any form of logical rigor.[0]
Your IQ might actually be higher than some people with with better grades. Just like how Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk don't have the highest IQs, but are some of the most "intelligent people" — as measured by their networth.
Unclear academic concepts are often so because of poor literature, not stupid students.
I used to think I was too stupid to fully understand quantum physics until I read Richard Feynman's Quantum Electro Dynamics [1] Feynman actually talks exactly about this problem (poor academic literature) in the very first chapters of the book (in the example about how mayans computed astronomical events).
Fyneman's book is not "dummed down" its well written, because it is written specifically to be understood.
Some new well written books includes Maths Better Explained & Calculus Better Explained books kinda popular in the HN crowd.
[0]:https://youtu.be/sj_tFp3WSjg
[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QED:_The_Strange_Theory_of_L...
IQ is mostly a pseudo-science, it doesn't hold any form of logical rigor.[0]
Your IQ might actually be higher than some people with with better grades. Just like how Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk don't have the highest IQs, but are some of the most "intelligent people" — as measured by their networth.
Unclear academic concepts are often so because of poor literature, not stupid students.
I used to think I was too stupid to fully understand quantum physics until I read Richard Feynman's Quantum Electro Dynamics [1] Feynman actually talks exactly about this problem (poor academic literature) in the very first chapters of the book (in the example about how mayans computed astronomical events).
Fyneman's book is not "dummed down" its well written, because it is written specifically to be understood.
Some new well written books includes Maths Better Explained & Calculus Better Explained books kinda popular in the HN crowd.
[0]:https://youtu.be/sj_tFp3WSjg
[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/QED:_The_Strange_Theory_of_L...
> I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details. I also forget things all the time
This is unrelated to intelligence. Could be ADHD, could be something else... try asking a psychologist.
> I tried to find reliable IQ tests online
There is no such thing as a "reliable online IQ test". (There are many scams, though.) If you want to test your IQ, find a psychologist.
By the way, Mensa would also send you to a regular psychologist, or would rather ask one to come and administer the test at their location, and would definitely not accept an online test. (Not even a test that claims to be associated with Mensa. It usually isn't.)
> I genuinely feel I’m thinking too slow in general, always felt.
That could also be an effect of conscientiousness or maybe neuroticism. Some people are quick to declare that they "understand" something, when they actually only have very superficial understanding... and when you ask them any deeper question, turns out they have no idea, or are completely mistaken. Other people are more aware of imperfections in their understanding, so even if they already know more about the topic, if you ask them whether they understand it, they say "not yet", because that's how it feels to them.
> I would welcome any advice because the situation kind of depresses me
Find a psychologist, ask them to give you some IQ test (e.g. Raven matrices), and a Big Five (also called "OCEAN") personality trait test. Maybe ask about the possibility of ADHD. This is more reliable than asking strangers on internet, or going with your self-doubt.
This is unrelated to intelligence. Could be ADHD, could be something else... try asking a psychologist.
> I tried to find reliable IQ tests online
There is no such thing as a "reliable online IQ test". (There are many scams, though.) If you want to test your IQ, find a psychologist.
By the way, Mensa would also send you to a regular psychologist, or would rather ask one to come and administer the test at their location, and would definitely not accept an online test. (Not even a test that claims to be associated with Mensa. It usually isn't.)
> I genuinely feel I’m thinking too slow in general, always felt.
That could also be an effect of conscientiousness or maybe neuroticism. Some people are quick to declare that they "understand" something, when they actually only have very superficial understanding... and when you ask them any deeper question, turns out they have no idea, or are completely mistaken. Other people are more aware of imperfections in their understanding, so even if they already know more about the topic, if you ask them whether they understand it, they say "not yet", because that's how it feels to them.
> I would welcome any advice because the situation kind of depresses me
Find a psychologist, ask them to give you some IQ test (e.g. Raven matrices), and a Big Five (also called "OCEAN") personality trait test. Maybe ask about the possibility of ADHD. This is more reliable than asking strangers on internet, or going with your self-doubt.
> By the way, Mensa would also send you to a regular psychologist, or would rather ask one to come and administer the test at their location, and would definitely not accept an online test.
You are correct they do not take online IQ test results seriously but Mensa do not send people to psychologists for IQ tests. They have testing centres anyone can book an appointment at for like $30. It’s like a normal test environment. The advantage being you pay for a real in person supervised IQ test.
That’s the best way to do it even if you don’t care about Mensa. They’re still the easiest way to get a real IQ test.
The exception is American Mensa which uses some test they made up instead of a standardised IQ test like the rest of the world’s Mensa chapters do.
You are correct they do not take online IQ test results seriously but Mensa do not send people to psychologists for IQ tests. They have testing centres anyone can book an appointment at for like $30. It’s like a normal test environment. The advantage being you pay for a real in person supervised IQ test.
That’s the best way to do it even if you don’t care about Mensa. They’re still the easiest way to get a real IQ test.
The exception is American Mensa which uses some test they made up instead of a standardised IQ test like the rest of the world’s Mensa chapters do.
I would suggest you to look within yourself and understand why you're concerned about your intelligence.
Is it because you want a good job? Tons of companies hire engineers that would fail an algorithm interview.
There is a trend of simplifying interviews anyway, I think M$ is not asking algorithms or trick questions these days.
Btw, I know people who failed a Google interview for 10 years.
I don't think I'm very smart: I was always able to coast by academically putting the minimum effort I had to (did this until a bachelor in CS and that was it). I spent all my personal time working and starting businesses.
I never bothered with companies requiring complicated interview and I'm sure I would bomb them completely; still I think I did pretty good financially (even missing out on incredibly rewarding investment opportunities).
Wealth is not something you necessarily build by getting top grades, getting a top job and doing your top tech job for 10 years. Sure, that works, but there are tons of ways to get there.
If you want to maximise money, knowing salaries in Russia and seeing the direction of your country, I'd recommend focusing on your spoken English, landing any job in a country with better salaries and getting a passport to move away.
Then I would think more about climbing the [wealth ladder](https://nathanbarry.com/wealth-creation) instead of passing a very hard interview.
It's a though time to find a new country, EU and USA are not looking super good with all the COVID looming debt, but there are opportunities.
Is it because you want a good job? Tons of companies hire engineers that would fail an algorithm interview.
There is a trend of simplifying interviews anyway, I think M$ is not asking algorithms or trick questions these days.
Btw, I know people who failed a Google interview for 10 years.
I don't think I'm very smart: I was always able to coast by academically putting the minimum effort I had to (did this until a bachelor in CS and that was it). I spent all my personal time working and starting businesses.
I never bothered with companies requiring complicated interview and I'm sure I would bomb them completely; still I think I did pretty good financially (even missing out on incredibly rewarding investment opportunities).
Wealth is not something you necessarily build by getting top grades, getting a top job and doing your top tech job for 10 years. Sure, that works, but there are tons of ways to get there.
If you want to maximise money, knowing salaries in Russia and seeing the direction of your country, I'd recommend focusing on your spoken English, landing any job in a country with better salaries and getting a passport to move away.
Then I would think more about climbing the [wealth ladder](https://nathanbarry.com/wealth-creation) instead of passing a very hard interview.
It's a though time to find a new country, EU and USA are not looking super good with all the COVID looming debt, but there are opportunities.
I think you're placing too much emphasis on IQ / personality traits. For the most part, you can't trust that stuff You got an error of +-2std on your tests; that's not your fault, it's the test's fault. And failing a few interviews doesn't mean you're not "smart", I'm pretty sure everyone goes through like 10 or 20 before they find a job.
Software engineering (and most machine learning and data science is still software engineering) requires focus, attention to detail, and memory. The most honest feedback would either be ensure you can get good at one sub-segment of tasks, or move to something else.
Coding IQ: https://adventofcode.com/2015/ -- can you make the top 100 or ~1.5-2x on these?
Data Science Ability: can you reliably make silver or gold on Kaggle? If not, you just might not be a fit for the area.
If you are able to rank high on Kaggle, or build personal projects using machine learning and deploy them to show off, then you may have a chance--especially if you network in somewhere through alumni and pitch your data science skill.
The other possibility is simply freelancing--I've hired some brilliant Eastern European coders off Upwork. If you can learn one particular set of tasks, then the sheer cost of living arbitrage and your ability to specialize can overcome any slowness that may not be a fit for top companies.
Coding IQ: https://adventofcode.com/2015/ -- can you make the top 100 or ~1.5-2x on these?
Data Science Ability: can you reliably make silver or gold on Kaggle? If not, you just might not be a fit for the area.
If you are able to rank high on Kaggle, or build personal projects using machine learning and deploy them to show off, then you may have a chance--especially if you network in somewhere through alumni and pitch your data science skill.
The other possibility is simply freelancing--I've hired some brilliant Eastern European coders off Upwork. If you can learn one particular set of tasks, then the sheer cost of living arbitrage and your ability to specialize can overcome any slowness that may not be a fit for top companies.
If questions are from specific field (combinatorics/algorithms etc) then general intelligence doesn't help. Even if your IQ was 150, you won't answer those questions without study and practice.
Try looking at things with a growth mindset instead of fixed mindset (Google it if you want to know more about this topic). It doesn't sound like low IQ at all to me.
Besides the already stated ADHD, it might also be an issue of motivation. If something is not fun enough or you aren't motivated enough by other means, it can be really hard to focus on something. Even if something makes sense on paper and is something that you should like, etc.
Try focusing on what you are really passionate about and what energizes you during work. And continue learning and getting better by putting more time in it.
Maybe you are focusing on something that you don't really enjoy. You sound very doubtful. Or maybe you just need more experience.
Don't worry if you are slower with coming up with ideas. It's not that important to have an answer quickly most of the time. In real life (non-interviews), you often have time to think things through and find the right answers by your own means. And intuition comes naturally with more experience.
Besides the already stated ADHD, it might also be an issue of motivation. If something is not fun enough or you aren't motivated enough by other means, it can be really hard to focus on something. Even if something makes sense on paper and is something that you should like, etc.
Try focusing on what you are really passionate about and what energizes you during work. And continue learning and getting better by putting more time in it.
Maybe you are focusing on something that you don't really enjoy. You sound very doubtful. Or maybe you just need more experience.
Don't worry if you are slower with coming up with ideas. It's not that important to have an answer quickly most of the time. In real life (non-interviews), you often have time to think things through and find the right answers by your own means. And intuition comes naturally with more experience.
These interviews are hard and you have to make an effort to get good at practicing them to get into a company.
Some people are not smart enough to do it, but I doubt you are one of them. If you can get through a calculus, statistics, and machine learning classes at a top university you are definitely smart enough. I struggled with these classes at times and I feel like like I am more intelligent then a lot of the Data Scientists I work with.
How much time have you put into interview prep? I here a lot of people say they do over 300 leetcode[0] (mostly hard and difficult problems) before they start to feel comfortable doing these interviews. This was for software engineer jobs, I don't know if there is an equivalent service for data science. You almost have to treat the preparation for job interviewing as more important then your studies.
[0]https://leetcode.com/
How much time have you put into interview prep? I here a lot of people say they do over 300 leetcode[0] (mostly hard and difficult problems) before they start to feel comfortable doing these interviews. This was for software engineer jobs, I don't know if there is an equivalent service for data science. You almost have to treat the preparation for job interviewing as more important then your studies.
[0]https://leetcode.com/
I had two take aways from this. Work as hard as you can on fixing this:
> I have trouble focusing, especially paying attention to details. I also forget things all the time
I can’t think of a single job or career where attention to detail makes a huge difference. It is what separates the A players from B players. Can you get employment if don’t have those skills? Sure, but I think you will see huge returns if you focus on improving in those areas.
The second thing is that you seem to put a lot of credence in intelligence. To me, high IQ is just a parlor trick. It might help to impress people off the bat but nothing will be more beneficial to employers than your high work ethic. It sounds like you have that. I’m not sure what it is like in your country but I would recommend casting a wide net in terms of first jobs. You can find ways to add value and mold your career from there.
I can’t think of a single job or career where attention to detail makes a huge difference. It is what separates the A players from B players. Can you get employment if don’t have those skills? Sure, but I think you will see huge returns if you focus on improving in those areas.
The second thing is that you seem to put a lot of credence in intelligence. To me, high IQ is just a parlor trick. It might help to impress people off the bat but nothing will be more beneficial to employers than your high work ethic. It sounds like you have that. I’m not sure what it is like in your country but I would recommend casting a wide net in terms of first jobs. You can find ways to add value and mold your career from there.
IT interviews versus how well you'll perform on the job are often poles apart in my experience. The interview is an artificial environment where, what a lot candidates are introverts in my experience, get uncomfortable, so in turn start to stress over factors and that makes logical thinking tricky.
I especially hate contrived technical challenges that never come up in their normal daily routine, that's especially galling. I haven't had to worry about linked lists or n-Queens since university, yet some jobs seem to love presenting you with it.
It'd be a frequent topic on comedies I reckon if IT were a bigger industry. I'd love to see builders, electricians etc going through the hoops I've seen some interviewers make IT candidates.
I especially hate contrived technical challenges that never come up in their normal daily routine, that's especially galling. I haven't had to worry about linked lists or n-Queens since university, yet some jobs seem to love presenting you with it.
It'd be a frequent topic on comedies I reckon if IT were a bigger industry. I'd love to see builders, electricians etc going through the hoops I've seen some interviewers make IT candidates.
It's so frequent that it's not even funny anymore. But I've noticed that companies are doing it far less now, because there's a whole industry that has cropped up around passing these tests but not doing the work.
In the real world, teams need people with different strengths. Skills like conscientiousness help balance out other people who like to forge ahead and get things working without covering all the details.
Do keep in mind that some styles of interviewing seem to select for people's stress level during the interview process.
If you want to improve your likelihood of finding a job in the space you're interested in, then try working on an open source project in the areas you're interested in. Write your own version of a tool. It doesn't need to be unique, as the goal is to build up a portfolio showing your strengths. Being able to show off real code you've written is going to be far better at selling your skills than any interview is.
Do keep in mind that some styles of interviewing seem to select for people's stress level during the interview process.
If you want to improve your likelihood of finding a job in the space you're interested in, then try working on an open source project in the areas you're interested in. Write your own version of a tool. It doesn't need to be unique, as the goal is to build up a portfolio showing your strengths. Being able to show off real code you've written is going to be far better at selling your skills than any interview is.
Have you thought about giving up on the education part of it and just diving straight into a career?
I don't have a degree, and I've found that in most circumstances that doesn't matter very much at all. If you have examples of projects you've worked on and can demonstrate ability, people will hire you.
I'm not going to say it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure that there are people who have passed on me because I don't have a degree, and in the early years I might have earned a little less than I should have. But I don't tend to apply for jobs that say "we absolutely require a degree" (I consider these people snobs).
When I'm hiring juniors, I absolutely prefer people with 4 years experience running their own open source project than people with a degree, 100% test scores, and an empty gitlab account. I'll pick real-world experience over academic knowledge in almost all circumstances. I've met a bunch of graduates who were totally useless in the real world, and I've met fifteen year olds that I'd hire as coders over them.
If you have the skills and tenacity to be able to build quality things then how "intelligent" you are doesn't really matter all that much IMO. If you can read, write, and do logic, you're smart enough to bruteforce your way through. I would argue that having a passion for what you do is far more important than raw intelligence.
You say that you have worked harder to keep up with the "more intelligent" people. This will get you far. Keep doing that. But consider doing it on your own project. Go make something awesome rather than bothering with academic scores, they're pointless. Being able to say "look at this awesome thing I made" is much more valuable.
(disclaimer: I'm not a data science guy and I'm giving my answer from an engineer/programmer perspective. Some of this might be different for data science. I do know that science/academic fields tends to be a bit more snobbish about degrees, for example).
HTH :)
I don't have a degree, and I've found that in most circumstances that doesn't matter very much at all. If you have examples of projects you've worked on and can demonstrate ability, people will hire you.
I'm not going to say it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure that there are people who have passed on me because I don't have a degree, and in the early years I might have earned a little less than I should have. But I don't tend to apply for jobs that say "we absolutely require a degree" (I consider these people snobs).
When I'm hiring juniors, I absolutely prefer people with 4 years experience running their own open source project than people with a degree, 100% test scores, and an empty gitlab account. I'll pick real-world experience over academic knowledge in almost all circumstances. I've met a bunch of graduates who were totally useless in the real world, and I've met fifteen year olds that I'd hire as coders over them.
If you have the skills and tenacity to be able to build quality things then how "intelligent" you are doesn't really matter all that much IMO. If you can read, write, and do logic, you're smart enough to bruteforce your way through. I would argue that having a passion for what you do is far more important than raw intelligence.
You say that you have worked harder to keep up with the "more intelligent" people. This will get you far. Keep doing that. But consider doing it on your own project. Go make something awesome rather than bothering with academic scores, they're pointless. Being able to say "look at this awesome thing I made" is much more valuable.
(disclaimer: I'm not a data science guy and I'm giving my answer from an engineer/programmer perspective. Some of this might be different for data science. I do know that science/academic fields tends to be a bit more snobbish about degrees, for example).
HTH :)
Agreed entirely with everything you said. I have no degree but my employer saw potential and was happy to train me on the job, including guiding me through getting actual industry standard certs.
I get an impression that a degree is much more of a necessity in the US than anywhere else and I’m not in the US, so that should be noted I think, but still if you have potential, knowledge, passion and a willingness to learn (they go hand in hand), and most importantly some actual real life experience, you can be attractive to the right employer.
I get an impression that a degree is much more of a necessity in the US than anywhere else and I’m not in the US, so that should be noted I think, but still if you have potential, knowledge, passion and a willingness to learn (they go hand in hand), and most importantly some actual real life experience, you can be attractive to the right employer.
Interviewing is a skillet on its own. It's somewhat detached from the actual work.
After an interview, write down all the questions you can remember. Then think about your ideal response and practice them aloud. Video record yourself and watch it the next day. You'll notice things immediately about your presentation that you can work on improving. Most interviews contain basically the same questions so once you've done a few, you should have a good collection for the next one.
This will help you identify answers you're giving that may come off in a bad light. You'll also sound more confident because you're just reciting what you've already prepared rather than trying to think up something on the spot.
After an interview, write down all the questions you can remember. Then think about your ideal response and practice them aloud. Video record yourself and watch it the next day. You'll notice things immediately about your presentation that you can work on improving. Most interviews contain basically the same questions so once you've done a few, you should have a good collection for the next one.
This will help you identify answers you're giving that may come off in a bad light. You'll also sound more confident because you're just reciting what you've already prepared rather than trying to think up something on the spot.
As a person who just spent a year looking for a job: it's not you, it's the job market. Not only companies (incl. in Russia) not hiring as much as they used to, they have a larger pool of applicants because of all the people laid off during the pandemic. You are competing, directly or indirectly, with a large number of people, some of whom are very motivated senior professionals (they need to be able to provide for their families and are willing to agree to lower salaries and lower positions, so there's less need for interns).
Even if you're not able to get the internship, it's not the end of the world, spend time researching current and emerging technologies and their applications, working on open source projects, maybe even pick up some projects on UpWork etc.
A few other notes:
- IQ tests are complete sh$t. I can't believe how many people take them seriously. How can you measure something if you can't even define what it is??? Also, if you see someone bragging about their MENSA membership, he/she's a self-important idiot with inferiority complex (and I speak from experience).
- A lot of interviews the way they're done right now at likes of Google/FB/etc are HORRIBLE. I can't believe they expect anybody to be able to solve any of these problems in a reasonable amount of time. I really feel sorry for the guys/gals entering the industry right now, since you don't have experience to back you up. A lot of companies right now are really outdoing themselves in terms of complexity of these problems hoping to find another Kulybin or Lomonosov. Hint: that's not how it works, you hire a reasonably smart and motivated person, invest time and money in their growth, and you might get your gem eventually.
- I can't believe the person who can express themselves so eloquently in a foreign language in their 20s is "not smart enough" (I started learning English at 20 and at your age I could barely put a sentence together).
- Stories about people of "high intelligence" who coast through life without doing any hard work are overblown, to say the least. Some people think fast, some are slower. I've known more than a few people who tend to make decisions in a rush and it regularly caused them a lot of problems because they act before they think. Your ability to think things through and consistently put the effort in to achieve the desired result is extremely valuable at any job (and in life in general).
Good luck, you'll get through this, kinda sucks for a lot of people right now, but better days are coming!
A few other notes:
- IQ tests are complete sh$t. I can't believe how many people take them seriously. How can you measure something if you can't even define what it is??? Also, if you see someone bragging about their MENSA membership, he/she's a self-important idiot with inferiority complex (and I speak from experience).
- A lot of interviews the way they're done right now at likes of Google/FB/etc are HORRIBLE. I can't believe they expect anybody to be able to solve any of these problems in a reasonable amount of time. I really feel sorry for the guys/gals entering the industry right now, since you don't have experience to back you up. A lot of companies right now are really outdoing themselves in terms of complexity of these problems hoping to find another Kulybin or Lomonosov. Hint: that's not how it works, you hire a reasonably smart and motivated person, invest time and money in their growth, and you might get your gem eventually.
- I can't believe the person who can express themselves so eloquently in a foreign language in their 20s is "not smart enough" (I started learning English at 20 and at your age I could barely put a sentence together).
- Stories about people of "high intelligence" who coast through life without doing any hard work are overblown, to say the least. Some people think fast, some are slower. I've known more than a few people who tend to make decisions in a rush and it regularly caused them a lot of problems because they act before they think. Your ability to think things through and consistently put the effort in to achieve the desired result is extremely valuable at any job (and in life in general).
Good luck, you'll get through this, kinda sucks for a lot of people right now, but better days are coming!
I've worked with many data scientists. I've worked with talented scientists (including a nobel laureate), talented engineers, medical doctors of various expertise, many well groomed/credentialed people (Harvard, Yale, MIT, Caltech, ...) and I've seen all sorts of types of intelligence throughout my life that extend well beyond academic intelligence.
What I can tell you from my perspective is that these interviews and projected expectations employers have are simply unrealistic and potentially unethical practices. They are often vastly separated from the reality of the skills of very real and talented people who already fill these sorts of positions.
I've personally been under the suspicion that these highly technical interview circuses are multipronged efforts to drive down rates of skilled professions. The idea is for some, to not only find the 'best of the best candidates' in terms of efficiency, but there is a psychological component that creates a new pressure for many akin to imposter syndrome. It makes candidates question their professional value and worth creating a sense of imposter syndrome. "You barely passed our interview, what makes you feel you can negotiate a higher salary?" "This is the standard and you can barely pass it, why should we hire you?" And so on.
It creates a psychologically leveraged position for candidates, especially those who have critical analysis skills who see and think about these things. Again, it's a multipronged effort and the pyscholical component is just one piece but it's a win for those hiring and largely a loss for those seeking employment. I personally believe it's utterly toxic behavior in the hiring industry and I wouldn't allow yourself to be manipulated by it.
Is it possible you don't have what it takes? Perhaps, but who cares? Don't let someone looking at you purely as a tool trying to find the best deal on the market of other tools dissuade you. Ignore them and give it your best. If you can't jump through the hoops and need income, try closely related career paths or other jobs, look for a niche or edge you have. At some point people will grow tired of this hiring charade, at least I hope, and workers will start rejecting it. Most of these tactics prey on the naive yet fairly technically skilled recent college graduate.
What I can tell you from my perspective is that these interviews and projected expectations employers have are simply unrealistic and potentially unethical practices. They are often vastly separated from the reality of the skills of very real and talented people who already fill these sorts of positions.
I've personally been under the suspicion that these highly technical interview circuses are multipronged efforts to drive down rates of skilled professions. The idea is for some, to not only find the 'best of the best candidates' in terms of efficiency, but there is a psychological component that creates a new pressure for many akin to imposter syndrome. It makes candidates question their professional value and worth creating a sense of imposter syndrome. "You barely passed our interview, what makes you feel you can negotiate a higher salary?" "This is the standard and you can barely pass it, why should we hire you?" And so on.
It creates a psychologically leveraged position for candidates, especially those who have critical analysis skills who see and think about these things. Again, it's a multipronged effort and the pyscholical component is just one piece but it's a win for those hiring and largely a loss for those seeking employment. I personally believe it's utterly toxic behavior in the hiring industry and I wouldn't allow yourself to be manipulated by it.
Is it possible you don't have what it takes? Perhaps, but who cares? Don't let someone looking at you purely as a tool trying to find the best deal on the market of other tools dissuade you. Ignore them and give it your best. If you can't jump through the hoops and need income, try closely related career paths or other jobs, look for a niche or edge you have. At some point people will grow tired of this hiring charade, at least I hope, and workers will start rejecting it. Most of these tactics prey on the naive yet fairly technically skilled recent college graduate.
Are you preparing for interviews? Read online about the common questions, and prepare like you would study for an exam.
That was a big mindset shift for me also coming from a top university but being bad at interviews. Before I had little confidence, afterwards my success rate is 80% the last time I interviewed (4 out of 5 FANG/late stage startup companies).
This is for SWE though, data science may be a tougher nut to crack.
As an aside, being happy and not isolated is pretty key for having consistent progress in your studies or work.
That was a big mindset shift for me also coming from a top university but being bad at interviews. Before I had little confidence, afterwards my success rate is 80% the last time I interviewed (4 out of 5 FANG/late stage startup companies).
This is for SWE though, data science may be a tougher nut to crack.
As an aside, being happy and not isolated is pretty key for having consistent progress in your studies or work.
My honest opinion from studying math for a while as a non-mathematician: getting to an advanced level in combinatorics and algorithms is simply way less difficult than getting to an advanced level in say, analytic number theory.
Get some combinatorics textbooks and just grind through all the exercises. Grind TAOCP. Do this for 12-24 months diligently and you can legitimately become an expert. (If it seems unpalatable to have to do this simply to get a data science job, then I certainly sympathize)
Get some combinatorics textbooks and just grind through all the exercises. Grind TAOCP. Do this for 12-24 months diligently and you can legitimately become an expert. (If it seems unpalatable to have to do this simply to get a data science job, then I certainly sympathize)
I definitely don't mean to diagnose or anything but it might be worth investigating things like ADHD.
I am not a doctor or anyone who should suggest medical advice, just someone who has noticed similar symptoms in myself and appear to be on a path to getting them diagnosed as (and hopefully treated successfully as!) ADHD.
Of course have a Google and that, it's only natural -- I'd recommend the HowToADHD YouTube channel -- but make sure to get a doctor involved if you start thinking things fit! :)
I am not a doctor or anyone who should suggest medical advice, just someone who has noticed similar symptoms in myself and appear to be on a path to getting them diagnosed as (and hopefully treated successfully as!) ADHD.
Of course have a Google and that, it's only natural -- I'd recommend the HowToADHD YouTube channel -- but make sure to get a doctor involved if you start thinking things fit! :)
You've articulated your problem well, and though that looks like a problem to you, in real life it is not, but you are too young to understand that. Questioning your ability is sign of desire to get better and that is more important than the ability to solve problems in a time box. Question yourself more, act on whatever you decide on. Intelligence follows.
Though I have lot of experience in IT, I go and attend the interviews which are way below my pay grade with no desire to join them from time to time. I fail most of them. I get insulted. They inspire me to learn more and I am old enough to understand that interviews are not true platforms of test of intelligence and I do not consider myself a super smart guy.
On the other hand, I interview a lot to hire software engineers into my team where I strongly believe my failures in those interviews had made me a better manager. I know what are the qualities I need to look for in people when I hire them.
I know failures hurt. You have to accept the pain and focus on learning from them.
Grab yourself a copy of 'Growth mindset'
Though I have lot of experience in IT, I go and attend the interviews which are way below my pay grade with no desire to join them from time to time. I fail most of them. I get insulted. They inspire me to learn more and I am old enough to understand that interviews are not true platforms of test of intelligence and I do not consider myself a super smart guy.
On the other hand, I interview a lot to hire software engineers into my team where I strongly believe my failures in those interviews had made me a better manager. I know what are the qualities I need to look for in people when I hire them.
I know failures hurt. You have to accept the pain and focus on learning from them.
Grab yourself a copy of 'Growth mindset'
>All of them were on combinatorics/algorithms
As far as combinatorics specifically is concerned, it seems to be a special case in people's abilities. I know many highly intelligent people who fail to do simple reasoning in combinatorics. I've noticed it's a common intellectual blind spot which doesn't say much about someone's other abilities.
As far as combinatorics specifically is concerned, it seems to be a special case in people's abilities. I know many highly intelligent people who fail to do simple reasoning in combinatorics. I've noticed it's a common intellectual blind spot which doesn't say much about someone's other abilities.
If you have doubts about your intelligence you are by definition more intelligent than most people.
Anyway, intelligence is highly overrated. Give me a moron that can follow instructions and learn from her mistakes any day over a genius that can't finish building a widget because it's not clever enough.
Success is largely a factor of persistence, not intelligence.
Anyway, intelligence is highly overrated. Give me a moron that can follow instructions and learn from her mistakes any day over a genius that can't finish building a widget because it's not clever enough.
Success is largely a factor of persistence, not intelligence.
> If you have doubts about your intelligence you are by definition more intelligent than most people.
Yep, Dunning-Kruger.
> Success is largely a factor of persistence, not intelligence.
Absolutely.
Yep, Dunning-Kruger.
> Success is largely a factor of persistence, not intelligence.
Absolutely.
You’re probably in the wrong game. These jobs are dead end traps even for the shockingly brilliant. Your success will depend on your ability to commit to one field of inquiry and learning for the next 20 years. Once you have decided, try to get any job at the least competitive place with the most interesting ambitions.
The other thing to know about these interviews is that most of the people that they hire can’t pass them. Sometimes they interview looking for that shocking brilliance, but mostly they just hire whomever they think they’ll get along with best. Several of my absolute worst students got jobs at ‘the top place’ which rejected others I know that have IMO medals.
It’s possibly that you didn’t fail, and are obviously way smarter than the interviewer. Look at the incentives. They get negative utility for hiring somebody better than themselves. Only at a very small startup does it benefit anybody to hire up.
The other thing to know about these interviews is that most of the people that they hire can’t pass them. Sometimes they interview looking for that shocking brilliance, but mostly they just hire whomever they think they’ll get along with best. Several of my absolute worst students got jobs at ‘the top place’ which rejected others I know that have IMO medals.
It’s possibly that you didn’t fail, and are obviously way smarter than the interviewer. Look at the incentives. They get negative utility for hiring somebody better than themselves. Only at a very small startup does it benefit anybody to hire up.
Never assess your worth based on job interviews. Are you able to perform the duties of a Data Scientist intern? Meaning, if you were given a DS project, could you complete it? Would you have any idea what you were being asked to do? If yes, clearly the issue isn't your skillset or intelligence.
The first thing I'd do is make a list of all the questions you've already received, and make sure you can generate good answers to them. I've gotten repeat questions, and variations on the same ideas, so it's a fairly straightforward way to do better.
Since you have a combinatorics background, you might also consider thinking of a model that will tell you your rough odds of passing a single interview. My thinking was roughly: "I usually get 7 questions, need to get 6 correct, and I have a 70% chance of producing a decent answer. What are my odds of passing?". That can give you an idea of how much you need to improve to have a decent odds.
Since you have a combinatorics background, you might also consider thinking of a model that will tell you your rough odds of passing a single interview. My thinking was roughly: "I usually get 7 questions, need to get 6 correct, and I have a 70% chance of producing a decent answer. What are my odds of passing?". That can give you an idea of how much you need to improve to have a decent odds.
I hear this line of thought a lot from folks at your age and think of it more as a ding on society less than on you. My thoughts on this subject: don't let your performance on tests with well known answers (synthetic environment) let you believe you can't perform well on a test without well known answers (real world environment). There is a low correlation if any!
Secondly and most importantly, if I were you, I'd forget about data science for the time being. Why do you want to do data science -- because it seems cool? Yeah, that's how I felt when I was your age. But after many years of experience in the industry, let me give you a word of advice -- environmental and market factors win over everything.
And as far as the market goes, there's no better labor market to enter than the generalist software engineer market. You want to enter a market where the supply is high so you can get a good entry level job where you can work with smart people and grow a lot. Really, the first job or two is always the hardest. You may have to move to somewhere in Europe (perhaps Berlin or London or something), or the US to do so.
Once you get experience there, it's a lot easier to move laterally into a data science job if you want to because you'll have real world experience problem solving. But my guess is by that point, you'll have lost your appetite for data science because you'll see the field for what it is -- a field that draws in people who want to deploy shiny solutions in need of a problem where there's way more labor supply than demand, which won't be good for your career.
Make practical decisions. I guarantee you're smart enough. That's not the limiting factor. The limiting factor will be your decisions and chosen directionality from this point forward. And personally, I think you'll have a much higher chance of setting your career up for success at this crucial early career juncture by becoming a generalist software engineer. Personally, I really enjoyed working in startups in my early career because they taught me a lot of lessons (some the hard way) -- but working at a nice mid sized or large company is probably the way I'd recommend. Best of luck!
Secondly and most importantly, if I were you, I'd forget about data science for the time being. Why do you want to do data science -- because it seems cool? Yeah, that's how I felt when I was your age. But after many years of experience in the industry, let me give you a word of advice -- environmental and market factors win over everything.
And as far as the market goes, there's no better labor market to enter than the generalist software engineer market. You want to enter a market where the supply is high so you can get a good entry level job where you can work with smart people and grow a lot. Really, the first job or two is always the hardest. You may have to move to somewhere in Europe (perhaps Berlin or London or something), or the US to do so.
Once you get experience there, it's a lot easier to move laterally into a data science job if you want to because you'll have real world experience problem solving. But my guess is by that point, you'll have lost your appetite for data science because you'll see the field for what it is -- a field that draws in people who want to deploy shiny solutions in need of a problem where there's way more labor supply than demand, which won't be good for your career.
Make practical decisions. I guarantee you're smart enough. That's not the limiting factor. The limiting factor will be your decisions and chosen directionality from this point forward. And personally, I think you'll have a much higher chance of setting your career up for success at this crucial early career juncture by becoming a generalist software engineer. Personally, I really enjoyed working in startups in my early career because they taught me a lot of lessons (some the hard way) -- but working at a nice mid sized or large company is probably the way I'd recommend. Best of luck!
1. Find jobs in Eastern Europe, Germany, Scandinavia for remote locations. - Go to Stackoverflow and Hacker News's Who is Hiring. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26902530)
2. They don't ask such questions( Data structures and algorithms). Their interview style is to give a 3 week (build a small )project as take home assignment.
3. You are simply underestimating yourself. I failed in several subjects, yet my company and before them didn't pay attention to it at all. Chin up and blast the interview questions.
4. Never mention Mensa or IQ in your resume. They despise that.
2. They don't ask such questions( Data structures and algorithms). Their interview style is to give a 3 week (build a small )project as take home assignment.
3. You are simply underestimating yourself. I failed in several subjects, yet my company and before them didn't pay attention to it at all. Chin up and blast the interview questions.
4. Never mention Mensa or IQ in your resume. They despise that.
Remember it's a numbers game, maybe broaden-up your scope outside data science you can always go deep there later. I'd focus on getting an intership coding for example.
Just apply to hundreds of openings, if they're available!
Just apply to hundreds of openings, if they're available!
Nailing job interviews and having the technical skills to do the job require completely different skillsets.
If you start interviewing with companies, expect to fail, and fail a lot. Learning mannerisms of people and how to get along with them, is a practiced skill - and I would argue it is equally, if not more important than the technical skills required. If you haven't experienced this process, it is going to feel very rough starting out. It's even tougher if you can't line up interviews quickly.
There are a lot of remote opportunities (even posted on here, monthly) that I suggest applying to. And apply to them often. As in, aim to have multiple interviews per week.
Many of them won't even respond. Some might, and some might turn into actual interviews. Interviews you will fail at ;)
BUT, once you fail at several of them, you won't be nervous any more. Each one won't feel like a big deal because: "Hey, I have another interview tomorrow, and another one next week".
This is the mindset you want to reach. Once you get to this magical "eh, it's not a big deal" state of mind, your interviews will go much more smoothly and you'll be confident talking to new people. You'll be able to answer questions easily, and comfortably say things like "I don't know" without worrying that you'll sound dumb. Because "not knowing" isn't "dumb". It's just..."not knowing", and you know you can find the answer if you need to.
It's a tough process to get started with, but if you stick with it, it eventually pans out, and you learn a lot of social skills along the way.
Also, IQ tests don't mean anything... They are just random questions that random people put together based on things they think are important to know. They say nothing about your own intelligence or capacity to learn. If I asked you who invented the first pair of tennis shoes and you didn't know the answer to that, would you feel dumb? I don't even know this, and I'm asking it... But more importantly, would you know how to find the answer to that question if you were asked - like say...by Googling it?
If you start interviewing with companies, expect to fail, and fail a lot. Learning mannerisms of people and how to get along with them, is a practiced skill - and I would argue it is equally, if not more important than the technical skills required. If you haven't experienced this process, it is going to feel very rough starting out. It's even tougher if you can't line up interviews quickly.
There are a lot of remote opportunities (even posted on here, monthly) that I suggest applying to. And apply to them often. As in, aim to have multiple interviews per week.
Many of them won't even respond. Some might, and some might turn into actual interviews. Interviews you will fail at ;)
BUT, once you fail at several of them, you won't be nervous any more. Each one won't feel like a big deal because: "Hey, I have another interview tomorrow, and another one next week".
This is the mindset you want to reach. Once you get to this magical "eh, it's not a big deal" state of mind, your interviews will go much more smoothly and you'll be confident talking to new people. You'll be able to answer questions easily, and comfortably say things like "I don't know" without worrying that you'll sound dumb. Because "not knowing" isn't "dumb". It's just..."not knowing", and you know you can find the answer if you need to.
It's a tough process to get started with, but if you stick with it, it eventually pans out, and you learn a lot of social skills along the way.
Also, IQ tests don't mean anything... They are just random questions that random people put together based on things they think are important to know. They say nothing about your own intelligence or capacity to learn. If I asked you who invented the first pair of tennis shoes and you didn't know the answer to that, would you feel dumb? I don't even know this, and I'm asking it... But more importantly, would you know how to find the answer to that question if you were asked - like say...by Googling it?
There are no IQ requirements or tests for data science jobs. Sure, some interviews are trying to measure that in a round about way. Based on the info you mentioned, I would recommend studying and memorizing algorithms. It sucks, but that seems the best option and matches with your self-described 'not smarter than others, but work harder than others'. If you still don't do well, I would try to frame yourself as someone who can deliver as evidenced in your projects but doesn't memorize algorithms well because that information is stuff you can always look up.
Being "Smart" is way overrated.
Most challenges faced in the workplace don't require geniouses.
I would without question rather having a really dedicated and hard working employee than a genious.
IQ tests and exams are a proxy to measure your aptitudes and potential, but they are far from perfect, as many anecdotal evidence will show, and as experience will teach.
If you want to evaluate your worth, on an intellectual level or otherwise, you should try to achieve something difficult, not a proxy, a real thing.
You'll probably discover that abilities are mostly built, not given at birth, simply showing up goes a long way and hard work can lead to excellence.
Also, from my experience, the best achievers in the rat race are not always the best when measured on a real workload and not a (poor) simulation.
If you want to evaluate your worth, on an intellectual level or otherwise, you should try to achieve something difficult, not a proxy, a real thing.
You'll probably discover that abilities are mostly built, not given at birth, simply showing up goes a long way and hard work can lead to excellence.
Also, from my experience, the best achievers in the rat race are not always the best when measured on a real workload and not a (poor) simulation.
I think it's possible people have different levels of intelligence. I've also experienced that I learn better through some teachers. If you're having trouble with combinatorics/algorithms, may I suggest:
Probability: For the Enthusiastic Beginner by David Morin is the book that helped me get it. It's got tons of examples and I felt like I could work through them.
Grokking Algorithms by me(!) is (in my biased opinion) an easier text for learning algorithms. Lots of pictures and examples. I initially learned through CLRS and did not find that one easy.
Probability: For the Enthusiastic Beginner by David Morin is the book that helped me get it. It's got tons of examples and I felt like I could work through them.
Grokking Algorithms by me(!) is (in my biased opinion) an easier text for learning algorithms. Lots of pictures and examples. I initially learned through CLRS and did not find that one easy.
I think it's good that you're taking time to evaluate yourself! I suspect you are smart but haven't found something that fits your "groove" yet.
Here are some thoughts/questions that came to mind:
- It seems like, currently, you're good creatively (building, seeing a big picture) and feel that you struggle with implementation (the details).
- Do you want/need to do well in either or both of these? To what end?
- On technical stuff: it's helped me to understand the intent behind an approach, formula, etc. This helps me understand how to apply the tools I have.
Here are some thoughts/questions that came to mind:
- It seems like, currently, you're good creatively (building, seeing a big picture) and feel that you struggle with implementation (the details).
- Do you want/need to do well in either or both of these? To what end?
- On technical stuff: it's helped me to understand the intent behind an approach, formula, etc. This helps me understand how to apply the tools I have.
Technical interviews are a skill like anything else. The idea is that you prepare for them. They are also intentionally made difficult to weed out the candidates who won't put in the effort and time.
> Recent average grades at uni/failed interviews
Ha, I don't remember anybody caring about their grades at uni, as long as it's a passing grade. After you get the degree, nobody will ask about it.
> but getting in was rather because of my high conscientiousness, not intelligence
This sounds like at worst your IQ is average or slightly above average.
> Recent average grades at uni/failed interviews
Ha, I don't remember anybody caring about their grades at uni, as long as it's a passing grade. After you get the degree, nobody will ask about it.
> but getting in was rather because of my high conscientiousness, not intelligence
This sounds like at worst your IQ is average or slightly above average.
I find it difficult to believe that you are truly "not smart enough" if you've made it this far in university. Is it possible that you have an undiagnosed attention disorder or similar holding you back? If your school offers any sort of student counseling / mental health service I would encourage you to reach out to them for some professional input. They may also be able to connect you with interview preparation resources or tutoring to help you with that side of the equation.
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You are not defined by your career (or your job). You're young and just getting started. If this path doesn't pan out then look for the next thing. But keep your chin up! You sound plenty smart and self reflection is an uncommon virtue these days. And my experience (now 26 years of software development) hard work beats smarts 95% of the time - so keep working hard.
The fact that you're asking this question leads me to believe you are not, in fact, "not smart enough". That level of self-awareness only seems to come to those with intelligence - leading to effects like Dunning-Kruger and impostor syndrome.
More to your point about unavailability of internships, have you considered using other skills as a stepping stone? My first jobs in tech were nothing illustrious, and a far cry from what I'm doing now, but I was able to use them as a foot in the door. That wasn't at all my intent at the time, but in hindsight, I'm actually glad to have the extra context that came from working in a parallel track for a little while.
More to your point about unavailability of internships, have you considered using other skills as a stepping stone? My first jobs in tech were nothing illustrious, and a far cry from what I'm doing now, but I was able to use them as a foot in the door. That wasn't at all my intent at the time, but in hindsight, I'm actually glad to have the extra context that came from working in a parallel track for a little while.
I'll hire decent intelligence + high Conscientiousness over the vice versa, any time.
(And realizing that, despite being on a prestigious Uni, you're not a genius, is also a pretty good sign of character).
Now that doesn't help you with your interview problems, and perhaps you do have to take a slight side-step. But if your self-analyses is correct, you'll get there.
Now that doesn't help you with your interview problems, and perhaps you do have to take a slight side-step. But if your self-analyses is correct, you'll get there.
Many of my CS school mates at university took algorithms more than once. Some dropped it, some failed it. That class was the reason many CS students dropped out or changed majors. So, don't feel like it is just you. It's something people can learn, but it takes a lot of practice to do well. You should have a leg up on most as you've already done Maths.
I confess to being a slow reader, and needing to take multiple passes through the same material to internalize it.
My advice to everyone is:
- be patient with yourself
- make the problem smaller
- you never arrive: stay a student
- realize that you're part of a team, and don't actually need to know everything
- document as you go--you won't remember jack later
- money is great, but there is a linear relationship between pay and stress, and stress sucks
My advice to everyone is:
- be patient with yourself
- make the problem smaller
- you never arrive: stay a student
- realize that you're part of a team, and don't actually need to know everything
- document as you go--you won't remember jack later
- money is great, but there is a linear relationship between pay and stress, and stress sucks
Once I learned that I cannot quickly solve of usual problems big companies use to interview you.
I made my peace with the fact that I'm not smart at all. And I'm ok with the logic of it, just like the fact that one day i will die and that's it regardless of money, status or whatever.
You seem like a smart guy, perhaps it's not your fault.
You seem like a smart guy, perhaps it's not your fault.
Nobody feels smart enough and everything is hard, but sometimes we have periods of great insight where everything flows and we do good work. We hope those periods come back after they go away. It's much easier to do good work in something you are genuinely and especially passionately interested in.
Are you able to provide any detail about your interview questions on combinatorics (or algorithms, for that matter)? These are common in SE interviews, but I'm interested in what combinatorics/algorithm questions you're getting specifically for DS internships.
>high conscientiousness
This is the number 1 predictor of success. You'll be fine.
https://www.beyondinsurance.com/blog/conscientiousness-key-p...
This is the number 1 predictor of success. You'll be fine.
https://www.beyondinsurance.com/blog/conscientiousness-key-p...
I really don't think that's your problem: you're probably smart enough, I think this is a bit overrated compared to wisdom and persistence: also, do you like Data Science? Or do you prefer other technologies?
Online IQ tests are not reliable in general. With an IQ of 85 you don't get business and mathematics degrees you are lucky to go for firefighter if they accept you so don't stress it too much.
[deleted]
Hard work and practice > IQ.
> "There aren't many DS internships".
This may be a problem with a lack of jobs, rather that about you. See if you can talk to the people you applied to and ask for feedback.
> "There aren't many DS internships".
This may be a problem with a lack of jobs, rather that about you. See if you can talk to the people you applied to and ask for feedback.
Check if you have adhd.
I know it’s hard to find decent therapist in russia who is good at diagnosing.
But it may be a huge relief for you and might give you specific strategies for your situation.
But it may be a huge relief for you and might give you specific strategies for your situation.
Frankly I would visit a doctor and a psychiatrist. Your issues could potentially be coming from undiagnosed ADHD or a vitamin deficiency. Worth checking just in case.
How many people succeed at university ? You've made it to the 3rd year, I assure you it's not a problem of smart / not smart ;) ... maybe stress ?
I gave up coding last year because I was too depressed to try finding a job anymore, now I'm trying to work as a dog walker...
How much have you studied for those interviews? Very few people could do coding interviews without studying on leetcode before.
Message me if interested, I promise not to ask about combinatorics. See my profile for contact details.
This hits close to home. I used to think that I'm slow. I distinctly remember my childhood math teacher telling me that my parents should get me a paper that would qualify me for "special treatment" because I had difficulty solving problems in time. From start to finish, I sucked at school, and I barely made it through university, finishing it several years after my peers. Because I really suck at being social, I also managed to thoroughly waste most of the opportunities this time gives you. Not a very good start.
A few years later I'm doing pretty well. I'm the strongest programmer in my company (there's just a handful of us and I'm the oldest so it's not such a big deal), and I feel respected by my colleagues and my employer. I'm earning what's considered a very good wage in my country. Eventually, I'm planning to start my own business. I still think I'm mostly an idiot, but these days I'm not very worried about my future. I'm not a programming genius, but I feel very confident and productive at work, even if the impostor syndrome never goes away entirely ;)
I'm not entirely certain what let me succeed, and I'm sure a lot of it is plain luck, but here's what I think helped.
- Obsess about quality. I want my code to work well, run fast, look good, smell good, taste good. Most of the programmers I know don't care about code style. Make it into your hobby. Take every opportunity to make your code 0.01% better. Disregard all advice that tells you to be lazy. Optimize prematurely - it's great for learning. Throwaway side projects make for a great playground.
- As long as you're staring at code, you're not wasting time. Never forget that there's billions of neurons in your head doing Meatware Learning 24/7, so feed them data! It's a long-term investment, the marathon of marathons, so take your sweet time and don't stress yourself.
- Go deep. Dig into the frameworks you're using. Try to understand what happens underneath each line of your code. This lets you develop an intuition about how your code works. When you're not sure about how something works, look it up.
- Go wide. Try stuff out. Different languages, tools, libraries, frameworks. It all adds up eventually. It's very useful if you manage to develop cross-disciplinary skills. Most programmers don't bother with this. Watch conference videos about tech stuff that interests you. Sometimes you won't understand a thing, and it's ok - you're invisibly nudging yourself forward, inch by inch, while everyone else is stuck in their comfort zone.
- Controversial advice that I wholeheartedly believe in: Avoid asking questions. Almost always, it's faster to look up it up yourself. I'm not just good at googling, I'm a Google God. All the time, I encounter low-performers who are simply bad at finding answers. It's an invisible time-saving superpower.
- Do everything in English. You're from an eastern-european country - I can relate. Your English seems pretty good, so you're already way ahead of very many people in your situation. Configure all software to use English. Especially Google - this immensly improves technical search results. Always read documentation and look stuff up in English - you will slowly absorb technical jargon. It's another one of those things that puts you slightly ahead, but adds up over time.
- Do what what you love doing. It's a chicken and egg problem, because you can't really love programming until you're decent at it. Regardless of your intellectual capacity, if you think this is something you could love doing one day, give yourself time. It could take months or years. Giving it an honest try is the only way to know.
Good luck, friend!
A few years later I'm doing pretty well. I'm the strongest programmer in my company (there's just a handful of us and I'm the oldest so it's not such a big deal), and I feel respected by my colleagues and my employer. I'm earning what's considered a very good wage in my country. Eventually, I'm planning to start my own business. I still think I'm mostly an idiot, but these days I'm not very worried about my future. I'm not a programming genius, but I feel very confident and productive at work, even if the impostor syndrome never goes away entirely ;)
I'm not entirely certain what let me succeed, and I'm sure a lot of it is plain luck, but here's what I think helped.
- Obsess about quality. I want my code to work well, run fast, look good, smell good, taste good. Most of the programmers I know don't care about code style. Make it into your hobby. Take every opportunity to make your code 0.01% better. Disregard all advice that tells you to be lazy. Optimize prematurely - it's great for learning. Throwaway side projects make for a great playground.
- As long as you're staring at code, you're not wasting time. Never forget that there's billions of neurons in your head doing Meatware Learning 24/7, so feed them data! It's a long-term investment, the marathon of marathons, so take your sweet time and don't stress yourself.
- Go deep. Dig into the frameworks you're using. Try to understand what happens underneath each line of your code. This lets you develop an intuition about how your code works. When you're not sure about how something works, look it up.
- Go wide. Try stuff out. Different languages, tools, libraries, frameworks. It all adds up eventually. It's very useful if you manage to develop cross-disciplinary skills. Most programmers don't bother with this. Watch conference videos about tech stuff that interests you. Sometimes you won't understand a thing, and it's ok - you're invisibly nudging yourself forward, inch by inch, while everyone else is stuck in their comfort zone.
- Controversial advice that I wholeheartedly believe in: Avoid asking questions. Almost always, it's faster to look up it up yourself. I'm not just good at googling, I'm a Google God. All the time, I encounter low-performers who are simply bad at finding answers. It's an invisible time-saving superpower.
- Do everything in English. You're from an eastern-european country - I can relate. Your English seems pretty good, so you're already way ahead of very many people in your situation. Configure all software to use English. Especially Google - this immensly improves technical search results. Always read documentation and look stuff up in English - you will slowly absorb technical jargon. It's another one of those things that puts you slightly ahead, but adds up over time.
- Do what what you love doing. It's a chicken and egg problem, because you can't really love programming until you're decent at it. Regardless of your intellectual capacity, if you think this is something you could love doing one day, give yourself time. It could take months or years. Giving it an honest try is the only way to know.
Good luck, friend!
The good news is: chances are you’re of average intelligence.
I'd give myself time if I were you and stick with it.
don't try to measure love with numbers. And disregard anyone who does it.
see Little prince by Exupery
any chance you study at MIPT?
I am what people considered really good at math and I would have 50% chance of passing any combinatorics / algorithmics interviews at FAANGS even completely unprepared based on my friends who have done them and told me the exercices. How can I tell ? That was most of my education and still partly my personal obsession, and in a competitive setting in my country I was among the top 10 of my year nationwide on pure algorithmic problem solving.
I can ABSOLUTELY CONFIRM you this is completely "orthogonal" to being a good engineer / datascientist. There are good datascientist without this skill, and many people with this skill which are bad datascientist.
Like in most job, your sucess will mostly depends on other stuff like being rigorous, focused, hardworking, being a team worker and most importantly, LOVING WHAT YOU DO. Find your sweet spot wit hthe right combination, a mix of vague problem solving, project management, team spirit and you will be as much a good engineer than the next math wizard.
I can ABSOLUTELY CONFIRM you this is completely "orthogonal" to being a good engineer / datascientist. There are good datascientist without this skill, and many people with this skill which are bad datascientist.
Like in most job, your sucess will mostly depends on other stuff like being rigorous, focused, hardworking, being a team worker and most importantly, LOVING WHAT YOU DO. Find your sweet spot wit hthe right combination, a mix of vague problem solving, project management, team spirit and you will be as much a good engineer than the next math wizard.
it's a numbers game, apply to more positions, startups especially, across the globe. And avoid competition if you can.
There are tons of remote DS positions in US startups desperate to find candidates but everyone is mindlessly applying to FAANG and ignores smaller no-name companies.
Not just that, some positions are not advertised but might be created for you if you just write to startup CEO or CTO directly, and they happen to like your background and the fact that you'll probably be ok with below market rates for starters. You just need a foot in the door.
Hustle more, it's not about intelligence but about grit.
There are tons of remote DS positions in US startups desperate to find candidates but everyone is mindlessly applying to FAANG and ignores smaller no-name companies.
Not just that, some positions are not advertised but might be created for you if you just write to startup CEO or CTO directly, and they happen to like your background and the fact that you'll probably be ok with below market rates for starters. You just need a foot in the door.
Hustle more, it's not about intelligence but about grit.
Acquire knowledge; Intelligence is not necessary
From what you have described, your main and first problem is TO GET A JOB.
Your second problem is that you have a university education...
That is a red herring: You get assumptions and get crushed by reality. Have a university education is not directly related to solve your first problem. And for my experience interviewed A LOT of candidates in the past, is a mental blocker!.
Your third problem is lack of experience.
In some interviews I do in the past (years ago, when I needed) I fail them too. But I HAVE EXPERIENCE. So I PITCH THAT. Any company with half of a brain wanna somebody, even if half-smart, that get the jobs done. With experience you KNOW what is truly important and with some practique and confidence how express it.
---
So, solve your first problem and get a Job, even if is not what you are dreaming.
Then accept that the university teach a lot of stuff, but now you need to learn the REAL stuff. Hopefully you could marry both.
And that in the field exist many real problems that are the TRUE problems companies are facing (that are rarely if ever discussing at hiring!) so your next try you can pitch you better.
Your second problem is that you have a university education...
That is a red herring: You get assumptions and get crushed by reality. Have a university education is not directly related to solve your first problem. And for my experience interviewed A LOT of candidates in the past, is a mental blocker!.
Your third problem is lack of experience.
In some interviews I do in the past (years ago, when I needed) I fail them too. But I HAVE EXPERIENCE. So I PITCH THAT. Any company with half of a brain wanna somebody, even if half-smart, that get the jobs done. With experience you KNOW what is truly important and with some practique and confidence how express it.
---
So, solve your first problem and get a Job, even if is not what you are dreaming.
Then accept that the university teach a lot of stuff, but now you need to learn the REAL stuff. Hopefully you could marry both.
And that in the field exist many real problems that are the TRUE problems companies are facing (that are rarely if ever discussing at hiring!) so your next try you can pitch you better.
I’m a 3rd-year student at a university which is considered prestigious here (Russia), but getting in was rather because of my high conscientiousness, not intelligence. I’ve always been average academically, but when needed, simply outworked everybody and got decent grades. It doesn’t seem to work this time. In my country, there aren’t many DS internships, so if I fail a few more interviews, not sure if I can find new opportunities soon. It makes me sad, as I have to find a job for this summer
Recent average grades at uni/failed interviews in combination with all above made me seriously question my intelligence. There is no Mensa club in my country, but I tried to find reliable IQ tests online: got 86 and 135 on two different ones, have no idea what to make of it. My degree is in economics/mathematics, but I’ve been programming since 16, so I thought DS would suit me as a combination of both. In general, I just really love building stuff with my hands (got some personal projects which employers liked), and making smth with ML seemed cool
Is there a way to tell if I’m simply not smart enough for this? It’s not just about interview questions: I genuinely feel I’m thinking too slow in general, always felt. Should I try to move to other fields? I’d be glad to find any other technical internship, at least for now, but I have no CS degree which is a requirement for them.
I would welcome any advice because the situation kind of depresses me