Researchers, lawmakers want Facebook's mental health research(npr.org)
npr.org
Researchers, lawmakers want Facebook's mental health research
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/18/990234501/facebook-calls-links-to-depression-inconclusive-these-researchers-disagree
226 comments
> IDK how to explain, I don't even have any friends on there I follow.
Social media is best used for keeping in touch with friends and family. If you're just browsing popular photos from people you don't know, it's basically an interactive and targeted version of watching TV. We all grew up understanding that endless TV consumption is an unhealthy activity that we should minimize, but it has taken a while for the same sentiment to be applied to social media.
I don't bother with the discover tab in Instagram and I mostly follow people I know. I can usually catch up on everything in 5-10 minutes per day at most, including some comments on friends' photos.
> I'm slowly trying to ween myself off but it is so meticulously addictive.
Being addicted to anything is a massive trigger for depression, especially when it displaces productive activities and replaces them with sedentary consumption. If you can't use something without becoming addicted, it's best to not use it at all.
Social media is best used for keeping in touch with friends and family. If you're just browsing popular photos from people you don't know, it's basically an interactive and targeted version of watching TV. We all grew up understanding that endless TV consumption is an unhealthy activity that we should minimize, but it has taken a while for the same sentiment to be applied to social media.
I don't bother with the discover tab in Instagram and I mostly follow people I know. I can usually catch up on everything in 5-10 minutes per day at most, including some comments on friends' photos.
> I'm slowly trying to ween myself off but it is so meticulously addictive.
Being addicted to anything is a massive trigger for depression, especially when it displaces productive activities and replaces them with sedentary consumption. If you can't use something without becoming addicted, it's best to not use it at all.
> Social media is best used for keeping in touch with friends and family.
None fake friends and family. Got a handful of fam that are so fake with what they post. Act like they do it all and now one helps them. Turns out they are narcissistic users.
None fake friends and family. Got a handful of fam that are so fake with what they post. Act like they do it all and now one helps them. Turns out they are narcissistic users.
Question: what does "fake" mean here?
I've seen it a lot, and it's clearly negative, but I don't know exactly what makes somebody "fake". Is it that they tell a lot of lies? Or that they're not trustworthy friends? Or just that they're not very good people?
I've seen it a lot, and it's clearly negative, but I don't know exactly what makes somebody "fake". Is it that they tell a lot of lies? Or that they're not trustworthy friends? Or just that they're not very good people?
> Social media is best used for keeping in touch with friends and family.
Not even that... Facebook can show you the worst of your friends and family. Doesn't feel healthy.
Not even that... Facebook can show you the worst of your friends and family. Doesn't feel healthy.
Instagram is making this style of usage more and more difficult, most recently by burying seen posts behind a link and feeding you discovery crap after that
> Being addicted to anything is a massive trigger for depression, especially when it displaces productive activities and replaces them with sedentary consumption. If you can't use something without becoming addicted, it's best to not use it at all.
I know it sounds trite but I feel like social media today (or maybe all forms of media honestly) makes the barrier to ill-will extremely easy.
If you were a young adult (at least from what I'm told) in the 50s/60s/70s it was hard to be addicted to TV because it would literally go off the air at 11 pm (or midnight?). What happens after I watch a show on Netflix? It immediately plays the next one.
You couldn't get lost in extreme opinions because in order to see those extreme opinions you've had to of met an extreme person (on a soapbox with xeroxes so I've been told), you wouldn't run into 100s of them as you do when going onto FB, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, tik tok, etc.
How can I as an individual compete with billion dollar companies that literally hire neuroscientists/psychologists to make something as addictive as possible?
I know it sounds trite but I feel like social media today (or maybe all forms of media honestly) makes the barrier to ill-will extremely easy.
If you were a young adult (at least from what I'm told) in the 50s/60s/70s it was hard to be addicted to TV because it would literally go off the air at 11 pm (or midnight?). What happens after I watch a show on Netflix? It immediately plays the next one.
You couldn't get lost in extreme opinions because in order to see those extreme opinions you've had to of met an extreme person (on a soapbox with xeroxes so I've been told), you wouldn't run into 100s of them as you do when going onto FB, Twitter, Reddit, Instagram, tik tok, etc.
How can I as an individual compete with billion dollar companies that literally hire neuroscientists/psychologists to make something as addictive as possible?
> How can I as an individual compete with billion dollar companies that literally hire neuroscientists/psychologists to make something as addictive as possible?
If someone can't moderate their own consumption of something despite their best efforts, abstinence works.
Similar story with alcohol: Plenty of people have no problem moderating their consumption, but a small percentage of people really struggle with limiting their intake. For the latter group, not drinking any alcohol at all is a great solution.
I think this defeatist concept that social media is too addictive to resist sets a lot of people up for failure. It's not only possible to use social media without getting addicted, but it's the norm for the vast majority of people who use social media. If you're in the minority of people who can't moderate your own usage, then abstaining completely might be the best choice. But don't assume that addiction or uncontrolled doom-scrolling is inevitable.
If someone can't moderate their own consumption of something despite their best efforts, abstinence works.
Similar story with alcohol: Plenty of people have no problem moderating their consumption, but a small percentage of people really struggle with limiting their intake. For the latter group, not drinking any alcohol at all is a great solution.
I think this defeatist concept that social media is too addictive to resist sets a lot of people up for failure. It's not only possible to use social media without getting addicted, but it's the norm for the vast majority of people who use social media. If you're in the minority of people who can't moderate your own usage, then abstaining completely might be the best choice. But don't assume that addiction or uncontrolled doom-scrolling is inevitable.
> If someone can't moderate their own consumption of something despite their best efforts, abstinence works.
No, if someone can’t moderate their own consumption, abstinence usually fails.
If a person finds something both easily resistable without immediate past use and hard to moderate immediately after use, abstinence works, but that’s not a super common response. People who have trouble moderating use immediately after a prior use also usually have problems resisting initial use.
No, if someone can’t moderate their own consumption, abstinence usually fails.
If a person finds something both easily resistable without immediate past use and hard to moderate immediately after use, abstinence works, but that’s not a super common response. People who have trouble moderating use immediately after a prior use also usually have problems resisting initial use.
Not saying you are wrong, because I wouldn’t know,
But like, how are you able to tell that generally people would have difficulty moderating their use of something shortly after they first begin to use it, generally tend to also have difficulty not beginning use?
That seems like it would be hard to measure/observe ?
But like, how are you able to tell that generally people would have difficulty moderating their use of something shortly after they first begin to use it, generally tend to also have difficulty not beginning use?
That seems like it would be hard to measure/observe ?
It works because it's easy to understand. Simple rules for a complex world.
If the rule is "don't do it", you know whether or not you're supposed to do it in any given case. That's not true if the rule is "be reasonable". If the first beer was reasonable, so is the second. One additional beer never really changes how reasonable your total consumption has been, even though the total range of reasonability is quite wide.
If the rule is "don't do it", you know whether or not you're supposed to do it in any given case. That's not true if the rule is "be reasonable". If the first beer was reasonable, so is the second. One additional beer never really changes how reasonable your total consumption has been, even though the total range of reasonability is quite wide.
If you abstain from alcohol you can always have a soda in hand and usually still stay socially connected with most if not all friends and family.
If you abstain from meat, vegan options are seemingly everywhere now and everyone can sit at the same table.
If you choose abstain from addictive profit motivated proprietary software, good luck keeping any connection with friends and family. You just stop existing in their universes, and they can't be bothered to try a different communication tool to respect your preference to not have your data exploited to manipulate and addict you.
Ask me how I know.
If you abstain from meat, vegan options are seemingly everywhere now and everyone can sit at the same table.
If you choose abstain from addictive profit motivated proprietary software, good luck keeping any connection with friends and family. You just stop existing in their universes, and they can't be bothered to try a different communication tool to respect your preference to not have your data exploited to manipulate and addict you.
Ask me how I know.
Do your friends and family ignore direct text messages?
Mine don't but it's always me who has to send them. I don't mind but I can imagine people can feel forgotten.
I don’t see how social media changes this. Life is filled with people who don’t reach out first. It’s not like instagram changes them. The number of direct, meaningful messages between you and them is probably the same, independent of the platform.
Social media facilitates indirect interaction (seeing posts from one another) but it won’t make “Han shoot first” more often.
Stated another way: if you long for others to make first contact with you, social media won’t scratch that itch.
Social media facilitates indirect interaction (seeing posts from one another) but it won’t make “Han shoot first” more often.
Stated another way: if you long for others to make first contact with you, social media won’t scratch that itch.
Right, but before social media other people made direct contact (phone, ICQ, Skype...) just as much as I did - now they feel it's enough to post on social media, and if you don't participate in that then you must make the contact.
My grandmother gets 2-5 random calls from her friends daily, the last unexpected call I received from a friend was in 2013 as we all switched to social media posting/commenting then.
My grandmother gets 2-5 random calls from her friends daily, the last unexpected call I received from a friend was in 2013 as we all switched to social media posting/commenting then.
This is a fair point.
Somewhat disagreeing with my previous comment: but I’ve definitely seen this effect between iMessage / Whatsapp vs SMS. I’m more likely to interact with people one-on-one through those platforms instead of SMS because of the link/image/gif handling. My android friends without whatsapp/telegram/signal don’t hear from me as much because of that added friction.
Somewhat disagreeing with my previous comment: but I’ve definitely seen this effect between iMessage / Whatsapp vs SMS. I’m more likely to interact with people one-on-one through those platforms instead of SMS because of the link/image/gif handling. My android friends without whatsapp/telegram/signal don’t hear from me as much because of that added friction.
The problem isn't that social media is too addictive to abstain. The addictiveness is what keeps you hooked, not what gets you into it.
The problem is that social media is too addictive and also very difficult to avoid.
For many jobs, social media has become if not integral then at least an implicit requirement ("please retweet our press release about new feature X"). It has also become a major news source, especially for niche or specialty topics (HN and reddit are "social media" too btw).
Companies like Facebook (and to less success, Google) are trying everything to create onramps to their social media platforms wherever possible. In many places Facebook is used by municipality governments to post news updates, restaurants to post their opening hours and menu updates, and so on.
"Social media abstinence" is not possible for everyone, difficult enough as it is once you've already been using social media.
The problem is that social media is too addictive and also very difficult to avoid.
For many jobs, social media has become if not integral then at least an implicit requirement ("please retweet our press release about new feature X"). It has also become a major news source, especially for niche or specialty topics (HN and reddit are "social media" too btw).
Companies like Facebook (and to less success, Google) are trying everything to create onramps to their social media platforms wherever possible. In many places Facebook is used by municipality governments to post news updates, restaurants to post their opening hours and menu updates, and so on.
"Social media abstinence" is not possible for everyone, difficult enough as it is once you've already been using social media.
My kids schools make announcements on social media before sending alerts using the official SMS and email alerts I signed up for.
Some discussions can only be done on facebook.
>If someone can't moderate their own consumption of something despite their best efforts, abstinence works.
It doesn't work for sex ed and I don't see why it would work for this.
It doesn't work for sex ed and I don't see why it would work for this.
I assume this is thinly-veiled political sniping?
Just seems like anyone posting here would notice the bleeding obvious - that sex ed happens in a very narrow age band not noted for self-knowledge, gratification delay or self control, compared with people with an addictive tendency across the age and self-control spectrum.
Just seems like anyone posting here would notice the bleeding obvious - that sex ed happens in a very narrow age band not noted for self-knowledge, gratification delay or self control, compared with people with an addictive tendency across the age and self-control spectrum.
This article is about social media use and depression in teenagers, I thought the parallel and relevance was obvious.
I don't know any alcoholics who transitioned back to casual/social drinking. The ones who beat alcoholism stopped drinking altogether. You just have to admit to yourself it's something you can't control, and avoid it.
It sounds like you're talking about adults. This article (and therefore my comparison) are about teenagers.
You can't see the difference between an activity that stimulates the dopamine reward pathways and the activity that is the reason those pathways exist?
>How can I as an individual compete with billion dollar companies that literally hire neuroscientists/psychologists to make something as addictive as possible?
You can't, which is the reason we need government regulation. This clearly isn't self-regulating (like most things) and the purpose of government is to act in these matters on behalf of society.
You can't, which is the reason we need government regulation. This clearly isn't self-regulating (like most things) and the purpose of government is to act in these matters on behalf of society.
> Social media is best used for keeping in touch with friends and family.
And we already had a good solution for that: email.
And we already had a good solution for that: email.
It's admittedly an extreme case, but I've been seeing Instagram fairly directly harm a friend's mental health. She is repeatedly seeing people on Instagram doing elaborate things - decoration, cooking, parenting, etc., and it's giving her unrealistic expectations about what standards she should be upholding in everything she does, be it cooking or crafting or interior décor or parenting or whatever. She isn't just trying to keep up with the Joneses, she's trying to keep up with the Joneses and the Nguyens and the Singhs and the Smiths and the Telliers all at the same time. The extreme impossibility of anyone actually doing this has more or less turned her life into (in her estimation) an endless stream of failure, and it's really wearing her down.
The craziest thing is, it happened so quickly. On year she was doing her own thing and loving it. Then her mom got her onto Instagram, and a year later she was trying to do everyone else's thing and chronically burnt out.
I'm not sure it's entirely Instagram's fault, though. A while back I decided to stop renewing my Make Magazine subscription for more or less the same reason.
The craziest thing is, it happened so quickly. On year she was doing her own thing and loving it. Then her mom got her onto Instagram, and a year later she was trying to do everyone else's thing and chronically burnt out.
I'm not sure it's entirely Instagram's fault, though. A while back I decided to stop renewing my Make Magazine subscription for more or less the same reason.
> ...it's giving her unrealistic expectations about what standards she should be upholding in everything she does...
It sounds like Instagram is essentially the generalization of pornography.
It sounds like Instagram is essentially the generalization of pornography.
This is a huge issue with social media and Instagram in particular. I see it a lot on YouTube as well. It’s like the Joneses suddenly became EVEN further ahead of everyone because the internet has such wide reach and only selects for the best of the best.
It destroyed my marriage personally. My ex became obsessed with being the “BEST”. Went as far as creating multiple accounts in Instagram to highlight achievements in multiple areas. The obsession resulted in us no longer knowing each other. We spent essentially no time together and time spent together was spent obsessing over one of the accounts.
When I noticed how it was changing us I deleted it. I hope my ex finds happiness in some way some day. For me, I know I’m a much happier person not being wrapped up in that constant game of comparison against people I simply cannot compare to because my life situation is different.
It destroyed my marriage personally. My ex became obsessed with being the “BEST”. Went as far as creating multiple accounts in Instagram to highlight achievements in multiple areas. The obsession resulted in us no longer knowing each other. We spent essentially no time together and time spent together was spent obsessing over one of the accounts.
When I noticed how it was changing us I deleted it. I hope my ex finds happiness in some way some day. For me, I know I’m a much happier person not being wrapped up in that constant game of comparison against people I simply cannot compare to because my life situation is different.
I see it all as "magic tricks" to varying degrees.
The "reveal" may look cool, but what they did and how much time/effort/money it took to get the result is hidden from you.
The "reveal" may look cool, but what they did and how much time/effort/money it took to get the result is hidden from you.
I have a very different experience with Instagram in particular. I have a very tightly controlled machinist and woodworker account that has taught me innumerable little things, connected me with people who have helped on all kinds of problems and only given me positive reinforcement. There are other communities I've dipped a toe in that are far more toxic, but I have made the choice to stop engaging in those communities as a result.
On the other end of the spectrum, Facebook used to be a cesspool for me, since I didn't like the amount of politics and high school classmates I didn't like in high school in my feed. Then, I unfollowed everyone that posted any politics of any kind, unfriended people I intended to never see again, and now my feed is only a handful of groups that are incredibly friendly and helpful communities around overly obsessive coffee culture. Otherwise, I now use Marketplace pretty heavily since it seems to have largely replaced Craigslist in my area with better targeting that actually regularly gets my interests right. Now that I have made the choices to use the tool well, it's really really helpful. You have to take some responsibility for the bad experience you have on these platforms -- they only push you content you engage with, so you can choose to stop seeing that crap if you want to.
On the other end of the spectrum, Facebook used to be a cesspool for me, since I didn't like the amount of politics and high school classmates I didn't like in high school in my feed. Then, I unfollowed everyone that posted any politics of any kind, unfriended people I intended to never see again, and now my feed is only a handful of groups that are incredibly friendly and helpful communities around overly obsessive coffee culture. Otherwise, I now use Marketplace pretty heavily since it seems to have largely replaced Craigslist in my area with better targeting that actually regularly gets my interests right. Now that I have made the choices to use the tool well, it's really really helpful. You have to take some responsibility for the bad experience you have on these platforms -- they only push you content you engage with, so you can choose to stop seeing that crap if you want to.
I tried unfollowing everyone who posted politics back in 2016. I ended up with an empty news feed. I simply had unfollowed every active person in my friends list. Eventually that was the catalyst for me deleting my Facebook account.
I do see value in things like marketplace but my experience when I left was so negative that I find it difficult to go back.
I do see value in things like marketplace but my experience when I left was so negative that I find it difficult to go back.
My experience and $0.02:
If you use Instagram the way "normal" people do, it's a path to sadness. Selfies, one-upmanship, parties, perfect cakes, perfect gardens, exotic vacations, etc. All the badness. It's just human nature and it's what the platform has become. Bleh.
If, however, you go into Instagram and aggressively curate your feed to be hyper-specific to a (visual) niche you're interested in, it can be really, really great.
I have 3 Instagram accounts - my "main" one (in which I follow friends), and that's become a hellscape of all of the above. I just don't use it anymore.
My other 2 are hyper-specific: One follows pets (parrots, specifically), the other is all about coin collecting (@numismattack ahem shameless plug). Absolutely zero variation from those themes. And you know what? It's a really fun way to immerse yourself in those respective worlds! All interesting niche content, all the time. I suggest you (and others) give that a try.
Ps - no matter what your main feed is, stay far far away from the "Explore" tab. That is brain poison. It's like pure algorithmic dopamine generation and it's the root of all evil on that platform.
If you use Instagram the way "normal" people do, it's a path to sadness. Selfies, one-upmanship, parties, perfect cakes, perfect gardens, exotic vacations, etc. All the badness. It's just human nature and it's what the platform has become. Bleh.
If, however, you go into Instagram and aggressively curate your feed to be hyper-specific to a (visual) niche you're interested in, it can be really, really great.
I have 3 Instagram accounts - my "main" one (in which I follow friends), and that's become a hellscape of all of the above. I just don't use it anymore.
My other 2 are hyper-specific: One follows pets (parrots, specifically), the other is all about coin collecting (@numismattack ahem shameless plug). Absolutely zero variation from those themes. And you know what? It's a really fun way to immerse yourself in those respective worlds! All interesting niche content, all the time. I suggest you (and others) give that a try.
Ps - no matter what your main feed is, stay far far away from the "Explore" tab. That is brain poison. It's like pure algorithmic dopamine generation and it's the root of all evil on that platform.
> Ps - no matter what your main feed is, stay far far away from the "Explore" tab. That is brain poison. It's like pure algorithmic dopamine generation and it's the root of all evil on that platform.
Makes sense that an app built pretty much entirely around this feature is the hottest new thing in social media in 2020s.
Makes sense that an app built pretty much entirely around this feature is the hottest new thing in social media in 2020s.
> you go into Instagram and aggressively curate your feed to be hyper-specific to a (visual) niche you're interested in, it can be really, really great.
I can attest to that. From the beginning I didn't intend my IG to be some personal thing (there's no photo of me in there or details about my private life), just following some artsy subjects I was interested in back in the day. In the meantime is has changed into a feed of modernist and brutalist architecture (I really like that subject) and there's some really neat things I saw in there.
My SO uses IG very similarly, her feed is now filled up by pets, mostly border collies (we have one at home).
I can attest to that. From the beginning I didn't intend my IG to be some personal thing (there's no photo of me in there or details about my private life), just following some artsy subjects I was interested in back in the day. In the meantime is has changed into a feed of modernist and brutalist architecture (I really like that subject) and there's some really neat things I saw in there.
My SO uses IG very similarly, her feed is now filled up by pets, mostly border collies (we have one at home).
The self doubt it can sow is horrible, but the way out is to realise you're in the matrix and it isn't real. For the younger populace, this is more dangerous because they haven't had much time (relatively) to experience the reality of life outside of the coloured glasses that social media offers.
I hadn't used my FB account in about 8 years but hadn't deleted it. Just did that a few days ago and the sense of closure was awesome!
In India, there is a psychological tendency to blame the person rather than the tool, so I'm even more afraid for people here.I mean a case like the suit against McDonald for hot coffee spilled on lap would be laughed at here. i.e. I'm expecting that "you're feeling depressed due to social media, you're the problem" kind of statements might actually fly with the people. I also see this changing for the better, so .. hopeful.
I hadn't used my FB account in about 8 years but hadn't deleted it. Just did that a few days ago and the sense of closure was awesome!
In India, there is a psychological tendency to blame the person rather than the tool, so I'm even more afraid for people here.I mean a case like the suit against McDonald for hot coffee spilled on lap would be laughed at here. i.e. I'm expecting that "you're feeling depressed due to social media, you're the problem" kind of statements might actually fly with the people. I also see this changing for the better, so .. hopeful.
I keep my account, but use Facebook as a tool, not as entertainment.
I use it to search for items I need on the marketplace. I use it to join group chats for small events and organization since it would be a hassle to get neighbors and their friends to ditch it for my sake.
I haven't opened instagram in ages, but keep it around for the very odd link to a post on it, and the same with Twitter.
It has absolutely improved my mood. Even cutting down on HN is good, and cutting reddit from my life was the biggest relief I've experienced.
I use it to search for items I need on the marketplace. I use it to join group chats for small events and organization since it would be a hassle to get neighbors and their friends to ditch it for my sake.
I haven't opened instagram in ages, but keep it around for the very odd link to a post on it, and the same with Twitter.
It has absolutely improved my mood. Even cutting down on HN is good, and cutting reddit from my life was the biggest relief I've experienced.
I had to unfollow a couple of people. There's "having a good time" and there's "constant idyllic life".
If you aren't careful it turns from "keeping up with x" to "comparing against x".
That's actually an issue with e.g. Facebook as well that goes back for as long as it's been around - people only post the good stuff, like vacations, parties, etc. Even if they're not intentionally trying to sell this lifestyle that a lot of Instagram influencers do, they are inadvertently causing the same problem. And on the receiving end, the reader of those wants to post those fun things as well, making it a self-reinforcing cycle.
It's an issue with most curated sites, I unfollowed everyone on Facebook.
For me, it comes down to "who do i talk to" if I'm not taking to someone I try to unfollow.
Heh, it helps if you're cynical by nature. From the very beginning I always sort of "known" that social media gave a very idealized view of people's lives.
I remember once, I was sat outside at a burger joint watching a lady take literally 5 whole minutes taking pictures of her food at a specific table, while another gentleman (who was NOT with her) patiently stood waiting with a plate of his own food in his hands.
Turns out the light hit that specific table so perfectly that these people were ok with letting their food get cold to get the perfect shot before they ate it.
Of course, they could have been food writers but I've seen this type of scenario play out often enough that I tend to look at a lot of social media as a parody of real life.
I remember once, I was sat outside at a burger joint watching a lady take literally 5 whole minutes taking pictures of her food at a specific table, while another gentleman (who was NOT with her) patiently stood waiting with a plate of his own food in his hands.
Turns out the light hit that specific table so perfectly that these people were ok with letting their food get cold to get the perfect shot before they ate it.
Of course, they could have been food writers but I've seen this type of scenario play out often enough that I tend to look at a lot of social media as a parody of real life.
That was not Instagram but rather the set of accounts you chose to follow on Instagram.
Choose to follow all dumb meme accounts and you would never have had that experience. Choose to follow all stand-up comedy accounts (or nature or music or comic books) and you would again have an entirely different experience.
It's not social media that is creating those problems, it's the way users choose to use social media. Though I'd readily admit that the proprietors do everything they can to make the initial experience as painfully addictive as possible.
Choose to follow all dumb meme accounts and you would never have had that experience. Choose to follow all stand-up comedy accounts (or nature or music or comic books) and you would again have an entirely different experience.
It's not social media that is creating those problems, it's the way users choose to use social media. Though I'd readily admit that the proprietors do everything they can to make the initial experience as painfully addictive as possible.
Even for something as subtle as following a nature account – chances are that when you see it, you'll be in bed or on the toilet or at work and not in nature. You could still feel like you're missing out :(
Part of it is the incongruence of your present moment environment doesn't match what your eyes are telling you, causing a cognitive dissonance or confusion of sorts - even if merely feeling based; I imagine people who are mostly in their head, their mind strongly always on, perhaps used as a coping mechanism, are more likely to be less negatively influenced by that incongruence as they may not be as connected to and therefore as influenced by their body, the feelings of body to contrast with mind.
I've stopped using Facebook, IG, etc.. What worked for me is to not completely disconnect. Instead, remove the apps from your phone and turn off all forms of notifications.
These apps want your attention. But you should only give it to them when you want. Not when they tell you.
These apps want your attention. But you should only give it to them when you want. Not when they tell you.
Yeah exactly. I had been noticing Reddit was really depressing and aggravating me; there was stuff on there that I would see and get angry about it, and the anger was what kept me coming back. When I realized that I uninstalled my reddit app from my phone that very night.
It was a fantastic decision. I still have my account, but I only engage with it when I'm sitting at a desktop computer and have a specific community I'm engaging with. I'm a huge Formula 1 fan so on a race weekend, I'll check out some of the posts on /r/formula1, for instance. But no more /all, and most importantly, no more scrolling endlessly for hours. It's been a really great change.
It was a fantastic decision. I still have my account, but I only engage with it when I'm sitting at a desktop computer and have a specific community I'm engaging with. I'm a huge Formula 1 fan so on a race weekend, I'll check out some of the posts on /r/formula1, for instance. But no more /all, and most importantly, no more scrolling endlessly for hours. It's been a really great change.
The charts in the article go until 2019, consider that teenagers have suffered an enormous amount of stress during the last year because of remote learning and lack of real social contacts, poor teenagers are much less equipped to cope with social media induced shame and guilt. It might be that these sad figures will go through the roof in the very near future. I think parents really need to take measures in order to cut social media consumption of their kids, if states are unable to influence the addictiveness of these platforms (how could one regulate something like this?)
> I uninstalled it from my phone I feel better about myself after a few weeks.
Next step: stop watching the news and feel even better
Next step: stop watching the news and feel even better
I have the same feeling, and even here in HN, where people makes such amazing things and I'm just here lurking
Besides people I know, I follow my interests on Instagram: generative art, architecture, interior design, music gear and some other niche stuff. I did the same on Twitter years ago, before that it didn't really resonate with me.
Insta is the only social media app that consistently brightens my day.
My secret? Follow topics, not people. My feed is filled with galaxies, animals, art... cool, interesting, inspiring stuff.
My secret? Follow topics, not people. My feed is filled with galaxies, animals, art... cool, interesting, inspiring stuff.
You should follow my Instagram.
Its horribly taken pictures of kinda boring moments
Its horribly taken pictures of kinda boring moments
I've been a frequent and undiscriminating Reddit user, and while the "idyllic life" / showing off posts make up a nontrivial portion of its content, there's a lot of things to offset it as well. Depression memes, deep fried ridiculous humor, cute animals, car accidents, the adventures of Florida Man, world news, etc. They used to have a lot more - "punching down" content, porn - but they've cleaned the site up over the years to appeal to a wider audience / advertisers / investors.
Sadly this is true for HN also, atleast for me.
Try watching tv all the time and you’ll feel the same. Now a bit of tv to relax from times to times is probably good for you.
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Note that Facebook does not have the choice to agree. To do so would be to open Facebook to unimaginable legal liability. So Facebook's opinion in the matter is moot. There are practically no inputs to this function that will change its behavior.
What expertise in law do you have to make such a stunning conclusion about Facebook's liability? Is there any precedent for media companies being held liable over such a thing? Do you also understand that if it were true that Facebook could be held legally liable for what you're claiming, that it wouldn't matter if they admit it or not. Admission of liability or guilt is never a requirement to be awarded damages or subject to penalties in any circumstance.
Is it your position that if someone produces content that causes depression, that they are liable for damages? Do you also extend this legal opinion you likely just made up and have no subject matter knowledge on to other forms of media or websites? Depressing music? Depressing novels? Depressing video games? Or is it only depressing social media websites that you feel are held to some kind of standard about depression?
Is it your position that if someone produces content that causes depression, that they are liable for damages? Do you also extend this legal opinion you likely just made up and have no subject matter knowledge on to other forms of media or websites? Depressing music? Depressing novels? Depressing video games? Or is it only depressing social media websites that you feel are held to some kind of standard about depression?
Generally, admitting that your product causes a medical problem makes it easy for people to sue you over it.
You’re right that they could be sued even if they don’t admit it, but then they would have a defense which would be far weaker if they had already admitted it.
You’re right that they could be sued even if they don’t admit it, but then they would have a defense which would be far weaker if they had already admitted it.
Especially true if you are holding evidence that you knew it caused medical problems, but ignored that evidence and continued doing stuff that made it worse because it makes more money. At that point you pretty much have to start bribing people to look away, like the cigarette industry is notorious for.
Facebook has practically zero incentive to research damages they might be causing. Sure, they could do the ethically responsible thing and try to discover and mitigate issues... but if they were doing that, we wouldn't be at this state, would we?
Facebook has practically zero incentive to research damages they might be causing. Sure, they could do the ethically responsible thing and try to discover and mitigate issues... but if they were doing that, we wouldn't be at this state, would we?
They have done causal research and they have hidden it from FBers asking for results of the study.
Members from the well-being team tried to conduct research but was refused do to it because of “legal and PR” reasons. The well-being team was shut down.
All this will come out in lawsuits if/when they happen. Likely through attorney generals and not individuals.
Members from the well-being team tried to conduct research but was refused do to it because of “legal and PR” reasons. The well-being team was shut down.
All this will come out in lawsuits if/when they happen. Likely through attorney generals and not individuals.
Okay, let's say I don't believe you and I have made a good faith effort to look into this subject and have found no evidence that anyone has ever been sued for causing depression, do you have any evidence or way to substantiate your claim and demonstrate to me that you are correct? I am aware of emotional distress lawsuits, but what's being claimed here is quite different.
Do I have no choice but to take you at your word that you're right about what is a pretty big legal claim being made here. Are people just making up things about how the law works, or am I genuinely just very ignorant on this subject?
In other words, can you cite the legal principal here, or precedent, or some kind of actual reference that shows some kind of informed discussion is taking place on this subject instead of a bunch of people making uninformed claims that sound appealing?
From my uninformed point of view that I am happy to be challenged on, suing Facebook for causing depression makes about as much sense as suing McDonald's for obesity. There is no legal principal upon which one could successfully do so and while people have tried, they failed miserably [1] (as in the case was dismissed with prejudice, which is one of the worst outcomes).
[1] https://money.cnn.com/2003/01/22/news/companies/mcdonalds/
Do I have no choice but to take you at your word that you're right about what is a pretty big legal claim being made here. Are people just making up things about how the law works, or am I genuinely just very ignorant on this subject?
In other words, can you cite the legal principal here, or precedent, or some kind of actual reference that shows some kind of informed discussion is taking place on this subject instead of a bunch of people making uninformed claims that sound appealing?
From my uninformed point of view that I am happy to be challenged on, suing Facebook for causing depression makes about as much sense as suing McDonald's for obesity. There is no legal principal upon which one could successfully do so and while people have tried, they failed miserably [1] (as in the case was dismissed with prejudice, which is one of the worst outcomes).
[1] https://money.cnn.com/2003/01/22/news/companies/mcdonalds/
I would say your effort wasn't very high then. Keywords to search for are "Mental anguish" and "Emotional distress". "Depression" is not a thing you can really sue for, but mental harm associated with it definitely is.
Given your response that you think emotional distress could in anyway be applicable here, I am fairly confident at this point that few people are properly informed to discuss the legality of this with the degree of certainty and authority that is being expressed. For one, as per White v. Monsanto [1] mental anguish and emotional distress requires "conduct that is heinous and beyond the standards of civilized decency or utterly intolerable in a civilized society."
I think at this point it's quite clear that people are just speaking from a very superficial understanding or outright just making things up about this topic but are doing so as if they are subject matter experts and while this is a open discussion forum and you can say whatever you want, I suppose I expected better.
[1] https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_case?case=1620366536753369...
I think at this point it's quite clear that people are just speaking from a very superficial understanding or outright just making things up about this topic but are doing so as if they are subject matter experts and while this is a open discussion forum and you can say whatever you want, I suppose I expected better.
[1] https://scholar.google.ca/scholar_case?case=1620366536753369...
Earlier you said:
> From my uninformed point of view that I am happy to be challenged on
Now you say:
> I think at this point it's quite clear that people are just speaking from a very superficial understanding or outright just making things up about this topic but are doing so as if they are subject matter experts
How would you know, if your point of view is uninformed?
Are you a lawyer?
> From my uninformed point of view that I am happy to be challenged on
Now you say:
> I think at this point it's quite clear that people are just speaking from a very superficial understanding or outright just making things up about this topic but are doing so as if they are subject matter experts
How would you know, if your point of view is uninformed?
Are you a lawyer?
I realized maybe a week or two ago regarding subjects that I am an expert on and professionally trained that people on Hacker News discuss it in a very uninformed manner and out of ignorance and that this ignorance spreads across the site like wildfire. People make bold and categorical claims that one would only expect of a subject matter expert when it's clear that they're anything but that. The issue is that the number of experts on a topic is much smaller than the number of people who read a comment, find it appealing, and upvote it, so it's hard to dispel a lot of misinformation. Furthermore based on my own experience, the amount of effort needed to demonstrate that someone is wrong is significant, consumes a lot of time, and even if you manage to do so, it likely is nested deep within the conversation and goes unnoticed.
In my own area of expertise, I have literally been downvoted for providing links to primary sources that conclusively disprove unsourced claims.
So given that I know that discussions in my area of expertise on this site is full of misinformation, I have now come to doubt the quality and reliability of conversations on this site on some other topics that tend to attract a lot of assertive discussion. Topics that don't attract a lot of assertive discussion still seem legit, for example few people make assertions or categorical claims in physics discussions or pure math discussions and the few who do I think are trustworthy since they tend to provide extensive explanations justifications, and sources. Most people in those topics are inquisitive, they ask questions, they make clear that they have an opinion or a belief and wonder if others share that opinion... but when it comes to law people just downright state things as if they're facts and they're qualified to know that it's a fact.
So I now doubt that many people on this site who discuss the law with such authority are remotely informed to do so and that motivated my original line of inquiry; is the original poster and everyone else in agreement with them actually informed to understand the law to make such a big statement on the subject, or are they just making things up the same way people on this site make things up about the topic that I know I am an expert on. Are other readers upvoting comments because they can verify it and upvotes are serving as a kind of quality control mechanism, or are people upvoting comments that sound appealing and that they wish was true, but really are not qualified to know, and hence upvotes are a reflection of this site's ignorance on a topic.
I can only answer that for myself, but I think the replies to my line of inquiry have been poor and misinformed, and so I think the best way to make use of this site going forward is to avoid participating in discussions other than those I think still retain some degree of quality: physics, math, machine learning, things where I trust there are enough experts here that no one would make such strong claims that are false without being shut down by the community for doing so.
Law, biology and health care, the environment, finance/economics are not among those topics.
In my own area of expertise, I have literally been downvoted for providing links to primary sources that conclusively disprove unsourced claims.
So given that I know that discussions in my area of expertise on this site is full of misinformation, I have now come to doubt the quality and reliability of conversations on this site on some other topics that tend to attract a lot of assertive discussion. Topics that don't attract a lot of assertive discussion still seem legit, for example few people make assertions or categorical claims in physics discussions or pure math discussions and the few who do I think are trustworthy since they tend to provide extensive explanations justifications, and sources. Most people in those topics are inquisitive, they ask questions, they make clear that they have an opinion or a belief and wonder if others share that opinion... but when it comes to law people just downright state things as if they're facts and they're qualified to know that it's a fact.
So I now doubt that many people on this site who discuss the law with such authority are remotely informed to do so and that motivated my original line of inquiry; is the original poster and everyone else in agreement with them actually informed to understand the law to make such a big statement on the subject, or are they just making things up the same way people on this site make things up about the topic that I know I am an expert on. Are other readers upvoting comments because they can verify it and upvotes are serving as a kind of quality control mechanism, or are people upvoting comments that sound appealing and that they wish was true, but really are not qualified to know, and hence upvotes are a reflection of this site's ignorance on a topic.
I can only answer that for myself, but I think the replies to my line of inquiry have been poor and misinformed, and so I think the best way to make use of this site going forward is to avoid participating in discussions other than those I think still retain some degree of quality: physics, math, machine learning, things where I trust there are enough experts here that no one would make such strong claims that are false without being shut down by the community for doing so.
Law, biology and health care, the environment, finance/economics are not among those topics.
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> So given that I know that discussions in my area of expertise on this site is full of misinformation, I have now come to doubt the quality and reliability of conversations on this site on some other topics that tend to attract a lot of assertive discussion.
Not just misinformation, but active disinformation.
> physics, math, machine learning, things where I trust there are enough experts here that no one would make such strong claims without immediately and easily being shut down by the community for doing so.
I think you are overestimating the quality on these subjects. They can be just as bad, and equally there can be highly technical and informative comments on law, biology, etc.
This site does not have consistency. Most answers to questions are poor and uninformed. However there is still good insight to be found.
Not just misinformation, but active disinformation.
> physics, math, machine learning, things where I trust there are enough experts here that no one would make such strong claims without immediately and easily being shut down by the community for doing so.
I think you are overestimating the quality on these subjects. They can be just as bad, and equally there can be highly technical and informative comments on law, biology, etc.
This site does not have consistency. Most answers to questions are poor and uninformed. However there is still good insight to be found.
It's worth noting that in this case (and in most discussions around non-IP law) the consensus HN view is usually what an informed person thinks the law should be based on something they heard on the news once and extended to try to generalise to some new situation that has never been tested in court.
Kranar is basically right here. It isn't at all clear that FB would be liable, and there isn't even a particularly strong case.
Kranar is basically right here. It isn't at all clear that FB would be liable, and there isn't even a particularly strong case.
This may be true, in the sense that they cannot be sued at the drop of a hat, however it doesn’t mean this kind of research can’t cause legal problems for them over time. Torts are not the only problem for them to worry about. Regulation and legislation are also legal risks for them.
The general argument that it’s a bad idea for them to admit this still holds.
Generically moaning about how people are speaking from a position of being uninformed, especially when one is also uninformed, is a useless behavior here.
Bringing information or asking questions is the only way to solve that.
The general argument that it’s a bad idea for them to admit this still holds.
Generically moaning about how people are speaking from a position of being uninformed, especially when one is also uninformed, is a useless behavior here.
Bringing information or asking questions is the only way to solve that.
>Generically moaning about how people are speaking from a position of being uninformed.
That's because you're misrepresenting my position, which I have been very careful to explain.
There is nothing wrong or shameful about being uninformed on a topic and wanting to discuss topics that one is uninformed about. I am uninformed on a lot of topics, including law, and I'd love to participate in a discussion to better inform myself. I also encourage people to seek out information and participate in discussions that they do not understand, it's a great way to learn.
My complaint is that on this site, people who are uninformed speak with a degree of certitude that a reader who didn't know any better could confuse with expertise, and that results in widespread misinformation and degrades trust in this site. It also discourages actual experts from participating in discussions since people informed on a topic have to then compete with those who are uninformed, and based on my own experience having done so repeatedly, the amount of effort needed to do so is disproportionate. It's a lot easier to spread false information that's appealing and sounds good than it is to spread truthful information.
Asking questions is great, having experts answer questions is great, having people with different backgrounds relating topics outside of their area of expertise is also great and can lead to unique insights. But having someone make bold, unverifiable claims and everyone else upvoting and giving those claims prominence when they are false, simply because it sounds appealing is not good because it pushes away people who are experts.
That's because you're misrepresenting my position, which I have been very careful to explain.
There is nothing wrong or shameful about being uninformed on a topic and wanting to discuss topics that one is uninformed about. I am uninformed on a lot of topics, including law, and I'd love to participate in a discussion to better inform myself. I also encourage people to seek out information and participate in discussions that they do not understand, it's a great way to learn.
My complaint is that on this site, people who are uninformed speak with a degree of certitude that a reader who didn't know any better could confuse with expertise, and that results in widespread misinformation and degrades trust in this site. It also discourages actual experts from participating in discussions since people informed on a topic have to then compete with those who are uninformed, and based on my own experience having done so repeatedly, the amount of effort needed to do so is disproportionate. It's a lot easier to spread false information that's appealing and sounds good than it is to spread truthful information.
Asking questions is great, having experts answer questions is great, having people with different backgrounds relating topics outside of their area of expertise is also great and can lead to unique insights. But having someone make bold, unverifiable claims and everyone else upvoting and giving those claims prominence when they are false, simply because it sounds appealing is not good because it pushes away people who are experts.
Does Facebook actually need to inflict the distress or just be complicit? Cause I have little doubt that "conduct that is heinous and beyond the standards of civilized decency or utterly intolerable in a civilized society" takes place on social media - after all, high schoolers use social media.
> From my uninformed point of view
Due to the tone of your over-confident first post, initially I thought you were a lawyer on Facebook's payroll making a deceitful argument.
You really think Facebook's lawyers would advise disclosing a link between Facebook usage and depression found in their internal studies? Do you really think that Facebook would even ever allow for that conclusion to be reached in this particular internal study? Come on.
Due to the tone of your over-confident first post, initially I thought you were a lawyer on Facebook's payroll making a deceitful argument.
You really think Facebook's lawyers would advise disclosing a link between Facebook usage and depression found in their internal studies? Do you really think that Facebook would even ever allow for that conclusion to be reached in this particular internal study? Come on.
Those are different questions than what OP got at with "If they did admit a link it would open Facebook to unimaginable legal liability"
Admitting to this fact could just be bad PR. Or bad for their growth and retention metrics, while not changing their legal liability.
Admitting to this fact could just be bad PR. Or bad for their growth and retention metrics, while not changing their legal liability.
[deleted]
If that is true than that just makes me despise the current state of liability and corporate communications even further. We are so far away from letting people speak the truth, or even just their mind, it is scary.
Instead we get all this flowery ultra-inclusive PR nonsense that makes dealing with tech far more cringe-worthy than it should be
Smile, while social media milks you like the cash cow that you are! We'll throw in a cute mascot, a curvy font, and a bunch of highly diverse group photos if that makes you feel better! Oh, does this attitude make you feel worse, not better? Well maybe the studies you're reading are wrong! Chin up, suckers, we have more ads for you to consume!
Instead we get all this flowery ultra-inclusive PR nonsense that makes dealing with tech far more cringe-worthy than it should be
Smile, while social media milks you like the cash cow that you are! We'll throw in a cute mascot, a curvy font, and a bunch of highly diverse group photos if that makes you feel better! Oh, does this attitude make you feel worse, not better? Well maybe the studies you're reading are wrong! Chin up, suckers, we have more ads for you to consume!
> Note that Facebook does not have the choice to agree.
To the requests made so far, you are correct.
Depositions and subpoenas would change that. And if you know who to ask inside FB, there are some ugly skeletons in their closet.
To the requests made so far, you are correct.
Depositions and subpoenas would change that. And if you know who to ask inside FB, there are some ugly skeletons in their closet.
How so? Isn't there a link to types of alcohol use and depression(and cancer, and diminished mental capacity, and early death)? It's not like alcohol companies are being sued out of existence.
Realistically I think that it just so happens that the people who would work at facebook are the people who naturally don't believe that facebook is a force of badness in the world because their worldview already aligned with facebook before they joined.
Realistically I think that it just so happens that the people who would work at facebook are the people who naturally don't believe that facebook is a force of badness in the world because their worldview already aligned with facebook before they joined.
> It's not like alcohol companies are being sued out of existence.
Take a look at the history of litigation against tobacco companies and the policy consequences over the decades as the harm became known and public.
If not legal issues at the very least Facebook would face severe regulatory problems if administrations and consumers actually started to look at digital media consumption from a public health perspective.
Take a look at the history of litigation against tobacco companies and the policy consequences over the decades as the harm became known and public.
If not legal issues at the very least Facebook would face severe regulatory problems if administrations and consumers actually started to look at digital media consumption from a public health perspective.
Companies are allowed to provide dangerous products. It's just that they can't do so without warning people and (potentially) without changing designs or taking other measures to protect people from the harm, unless the danger is already common knowledge.
Alcohol labels don't warn people about increased odds of colorectal, liver, or esophageal cancer....at least any of the labels I've read. All they say is don't operate machinery and don't drink it while pregnant.
Well - it depends on the product. Do recall that until recently MJ was illegal across the board and the US Federal Government is still against legality.
It's also illegal to own a tank.
Honestly, companies are prohibited from selling dangerous products unless there is some reason they are viewed as being dangerous but of more value being legal than illegal.
While libertarianism is rife in America - there is no inherent right to trade in dangerous products. If I decided to sell needles full of deadly poison at my store - even if very clearly labeled and even if I sat you down for a twenty minute presentation before each sale occurred - it's quite likely I'd be shut down.
It's also illegal to own a tank.
Honestly, companies are prohibited from selling dangerous products unless there is some reason they are viewed as being dangerous but of more value being legal than illegal.
While libertarianism is rife in America - there is no inherent right to trade in dangerous products. If I decided to sell needles full of deadly poison at my store - even if very clearly labeled and even if I sat you down for a twenty minute presentation before each sale occurred - it's quite likely I'd be shut down.
The point is that there exist products that are dangerous, yet still legal to sell given that they are sealed and labeled appropriately. The point was NOT that you're allowed to sell literally anything as long as you disclose the risks.
Tiny niptick:
> It's also illegal to own a tank.
It isn't.
It's estimated there are around 1000 private tanks in the US, and there are tank dealers in the US, UK, and Australia. Surely other places too.
Here's some in Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-19/tinkering-with-tanks-...
> It's also illegal to own a tank.
It isn't.
It's estimated there are around 1000 private tanks in the US, and there are tank dealers in the US, UK, and Australia. Surely other places too.
Here's some in Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-19/tinkering-with-tanks-...
my great uncle owned an armored car when I was a child. He lived a few states away so I only saw pictures. British Ferret. Apparently it still had the guns, but they were spiked, so they would never fire again.
Also, he tried to explain how you shift, but I never quite understood it. the clutch was a lever, with some sort of handle to spin the flywheel up or down to the next gear.
Also, he tried to explain how you shift, but I never quite understood it. the clutch was a lever, with some sort of handle to spin the flywheel up or down to the next gear.
Most privately owned tanks have demilitarized guns, though I think not all. But with the right paperwork in America, it should be legal to put working artillery in your legally owned tank. There is a fair bit of working artillery privately owned in America already, but you'd have to find a gun that is compatible with installation on your tank.
Of course this is not a cheap hobby, and if you want explosive shells you'd need to do paperwork for each shell. Even if you only want to fire inert projectiles, it's not as though you can buy those at walmart.
Of course this is not a cheap hobby, and if you want explosive shells you'd need to do paperwork for each shell. Even if you only want to fire inert projectiles, it's not as though you can buy those at walmart.
Here is a place in Texas where you can rent a tank, drive it, and shoot it: https://www.drivetanks.com/
Here are the prices for the Sherman tank:
SHERMAN TANK
$1,850.00 – Drive the tank
$950.00 – Ride the tank, driven by a Cadre
$2,800.00 – Drive & Shoot the tanks 76mm main gun (1 round)
Here is a guy who rented a tank and shot it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqC2kJNdJjE
Here are the prices for the Sherman tank:
SHERMAN TANK
$1,850.00 – Drive the tank
$950.00 – Ride the tank, driven by a Cadre
$2,800.00 – Drive & Shoot the tanks 76mm main gun (1 round)
Here is a guy who rented a tank and shot it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqC2kJNdJjE
I think this has evolved to be correct with how corporate stewardship has evolved since the 70's. I don't think it would have ever been responsible to shareholders for them to openly support the study. It'd be nice if they kept their mouth shut, but honestly in the modern world everyone needs to have an opinion on everything so.
Actually yes, I completely agree with you even though it's depressing. Calling it "inconclusive" is probably the least offensive response they could've executed.
Actually yes, I completely agree with you even though it's depressing. Calling it "inconclusive" is probably the least offensive response they could've executed.
> "The correlational evidence showing that there is a link between social media use and depression is pretty definitive at this point," said Jean Twenge, a psychology professor at San Diego State University. "The largest and most well-conducted studies that we have all show that teens who spend more time on social media are more likely to be depressed or unhappy."
> Correlation is not causation, and one area of further study is whether greater social media usage leads to poor mental health outcomes or whether those who are depressed and unhappy are drawn to spend more time on social media.
These are correlational studies. They aren't saying that they have evidence that Facebook causes depression. They're saying that increased social media usage is correlated with depression.
Stepping back, it appears that screen time is correlated with depressive symptoms, with or without social media. One such study: Association between screen time and depression among US adults https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574844/ This includes watching TV or simply using a computer for leisure of any sort.
I know Facebook is a popular villain, but we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions that this data means Facebook causes depression or that Facebook is uniquely worse than other forms of screen time in its correlation with depression.
> Correlation is not causation, and one area of further study is whether greater social media usage leads to poor mental health outcomes or whether those who are depressed and unhappy are drawn to spend more time on social media.
These are correlational studies. They aren't saying that they have evidence that Facebook causes depression. They're saying that increased social media usage is correlated with depression.
Stepping back, it appears that screen time is correlated with depressive symptoms, with or without social media. One such study: Association between screen time and depression among US adults https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574844/ This includes watching TV or simply using a computer for leisure of any sort.
I know Facebook is a popular villain, but we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions that this data means Facebook causes depression or that Facebook is uniquely worse than other forms of screen time in its correlation with depression.
Subjectively, when I'm at my worst I just end up mindlessly scrolling through whatever is around. It's a connection to the outside world.
I think the causality here will turn out to be complicated and will be different for different people.
I think the causality here will turn out to be complicated and will be different for different people.
Isn't this a classic ethical problem in psychological research?
You can measure the correlation all you want, but to prove causation you have to be able to control the source (creteris paribus).
It's hard to get a study approved that intents to expose subjects to something you know is harmful.(?)
With sigarettes, researcher could just prove the material harm, and conclude causation, but proving purely psychological harm seems hard to prove
You can measure the correlation all you want, but to prove causation you have to be able to control the source (creteris paribus).
It's hard to get a study approved that intents to expose subjects to something you know is harmful.(?)
With sigarettes, researcher could just prove the material harm, and conclude causation, but proving purely psychological harm seems hard to prove
(creteris paribus)
nb it's ceteris, same root used in et cetera.
nb it's ceteris, same root used in et cetera.
Facebook may not cause depression but they seem to be cigarette-maker defensive about it.
Indeed, it has something to do with cigarettes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24579498
I agree that from a scientific standpoint, of course correlation isn't causation and more evidence is needed.
But emphasizing this point feels uselessly contrarian. There's not a doubt in my mind that social media is a disaster for mental health, especially in kids growing up with it, especially on platforms like Instagram that emphasize projecting an image of a perfect trendy life. It's ridiculous to ask to wait for more evidence instead of figuring out how to act now.
Social media profits from being addictive and divisive, and is therefore incentived to hurt mental health. Facebook's R&D budget is larger than the NSF, I'm sure they have tons of internal knowledge about exactly how they manipulate users' mental health, and I doubt much of it is good.
But emphasizing this point feels uselessly contrarian. There's not a doubt in my mind that social media is a disaster for mental health, especially in kids growing up with it, especially on platforms like Instagram that emphasize projecting an image of a perfect trendy life. It's ridiculous to ask to wait for more evidence instead of figuring out how to act now.
Social media profits from being addictive and divisive, and is therefore incentived to hurt mental health. Facebook's R&D budget is larger than the NSF, I'm sure they have tons of internal knowledge about exactly how they manipulate users' mental health, and I doubt much of it is good.
it's true that correlation doesn't equal causation as the article itself pointed out.
Is there another event besides the releasing of the first smart phone in conjunction with social media that we is a possible contributor to the rise of suicide and depression from 2009 - 2015?
Is there another event besides the releasing of the first smart phone in conjunction with social media that we is a possible contributor to the rise of suicide and depression from 2009 - 2015?
> Is there another event besides the releasing of the first smart phone in conjunction with social media that we is a possible contributor to the rise of suicide and depression from 2009 - 2015?
Global economic collapse.
People love to look at social media as a cause for misery because it means they can avoid looking at the hard stuff - unemployment, precarious housing, poverty.
Global economic collapse.
People love to look at social media as a cause for misery because it means they can avoid looking at the hard stuff - unemployment, precarious housing, poverty.
Do you really think that's the only thing that changed in the world in that period?
I agree that smartphones could play a role and they are easy to point to as a new way to consume media (Was there a similar rise in depression when TVs were becoming common? When newspapers or tabloids became common?), but since the early 00s a lot went for the worse in terms of future outlook and expectations on what a happy life is or can be, not to forget wars, and economic depression, which all would maybe not immediately have an effect on mental depression statistics and slowly caused a rise from 2008.
But let's say it was the smartphone, then I'd still argue that the emergence of the smartphone (and the iPad) as a whole is likely more at fault than Facebook itself. Many many more people started to spend time looking at small screens doing all kinds of things as a distraction, including people who never had a computer or played games or browsed the web before for leisure.
I'm sure Facebook and Instagram were factors as common places where that time is spent, but there's also so much more than social media, for instance the fact that people are more connected in general via chat Apps and chat groups, where they also share photos or have discussions, though it's not really falling under the "social media" umbrella.
I agree that smartphones could play a role and they are easy to point to as a new way to consume media (Was there a similar rise in depression when TVs were becoming common? When newspapers or tabloids became common?), but since the early 00s a lot went for the worse in terms of future outlook and expectations on what a happy life is or can be, not to forget wars, and economic depression, which all would maybe not immediately have an effect on mental depression statistics and slowly caused a rise from 2008.
But let's say it was the smartphone, then I'd still argue that the emergence of the smartphone (and the iPad) as a whole is likely more at fault than Facebook itself. Many many more people started to spend time looking at small screens doing all kinds of things as a distraction, including people who never had a computer or played games or browsed the web before for leisure.
I'm sure Facebook and Instagram were factors as common places where that time is spent, but there's also so much more than social media, for instance the fact that people are more connected in general via chat Apps and chat groups, where they also share photos or have discussions, though it's not really falling under the "social media" umbrella.
> Stepping back, it appears that screen time is correlated with depressive symptoms, with or without social media
You might have some other study to back it up, but from the study you've cited we can't conclude that, because they measure screen time without any such breakdown. Social media could as well be the most important hidden variable.
You might have some other study to back it up, but from the study you've cited we can't conclude that, because they measure screen time without any such breakdown. Social media could as well be the most important hidden variable.
It seems likely though, doesn't it? If you take away their social media, where would you expect the depressed users to go next? TV in particular is something that has surely been researched, as it was probably the biggest sedentary "escape" prior to the internet, and the linked study would surely cite other research which eventually includes this.
The lit review cites two prior studies, both are quite interesting:
> People who spend > 4 h of screen time such as: TV watching and computer use, are at higher risk of developing depression (de Wit et al., 2011, Hamer et al., 2013). While, it is also reported that people with depressive symptoms spend significantly more hours in a day, watching TV and using computer (de Wit et al., 2011).
From the abstract of the first reference (de Wit et al):
> Our study sample consisted of 2353 participants (age 18–65) of whom 1701 had a current anxiety and/or depressive diagnosis and 652 were healthy controls. Anxiety and depression diagnoses were conducted using the DSM-IV based Composite International Diagnostic Interview. Controlling for sociodemographics and physical activity level we found that persons with a major depressive disorder (MDD) spend significantly more leisure time using the computer. We found that persons with dysthymia, panic disorder and agoraphobia spend significantly more daily hours watching television compared to controls.
So interestingly, the choice seems to correlate with severity of depression.
The other study was looked at possible causal mechanism between sedentary behavior (as defined by TV time) and depression. Since they focused on TV you can look at their own lit review and find TV-specific studies such as:
Lucas, M., Mekary, R., Pan, A., Mirzaei, F., O’Reilly, E.J., Willett, W.C., Koenen, K., Okereke, O.I., Ascherio, A., 2011. Relation between clinical depression risk and physical activity and time spent watching television in older women: a 10-year prospective follow-up study. Am. J. Epidemiol. 174, 1017–1027.
The lit review cites two prior studies, both are quite interesting:
> People who spend > 4 h of screen time such as: TV watching and computer use, are at higher risk of developing depression (de Wit et al., 2011, Hamer et al., 2013). While, it is also reported that people with depressive symptoms spend significantly more hours in a day, watching TV and using computer (de Wit et al., 2011).
From the abstract of the first reference (de Wit et al):
> Our study sample consisted of 2353 participants (age 18–65) of whom 1701 had a current anxiety and/or depressive diagnosis and 652 were healthy controls. Anxiety and depression diagnoses were conducted using the DSM-IV based Composite International Diagnostic Interview. Controlling for sociodemographics and physical activity level we found that persons with a major depressive disorder (MDD) spend significantly more leisure time using the computer. We found that persons with dysthymia, panic disorder and agoraphobia spend significantly more daily hours watching television compared to controls.
So interestingly, the choice seems to correlate with severity of depression.
The other study was looked at possible causal mechanism between sedentary behavior (as defined by TV time) and depression. Since they focused on TV you can look at their own lit review and find TV-specific studies such as:
Lucas, M., Mekary, R., Pan, A., Mirzaei, F., O’Reilly, E.J., Willett, W.C., Koenen, K., Okereke, O.I., Ascherio, A., 2011. Relation between clinical depression risk and physical activity and time spent watching television in older women: a 10-year prospective follow-up study. Am. J. Epidemiol. 174, 1017–1027.
Correlation does not deny causation, either. It's reasonable to postulate that it's a cause, and then study further to learn more.
Back in college I enrolled in a human-computer interaction course as part of a double major I was pursing at the time. A large body of newly-published research at the time, in 2016, was finding statistically significant positive correlations between the use of social media and rates of self-reported depression.
As someone who has struggled with depression their entire life, 2016 was the year I deleted my Facebook account. I have absolutely no regrets doing so and I encourage everyone to consider breaking free.
As someone who has struggled with depression their entire life, 2016 was the year I deleted my Facebook account. I have absolutely no regrets doing so and I encourage everyone to consider breaking free.
Do you happen to have a link? Would love to share it with some friends showing signs of depression who are heavy social media users
I don't have it readily available, but I'll dig around and see if I can find what we covered in class. IIRC it was primarily focused on teenagers in the United States.
Possibly there's more out there, but the evidence presented in the article is frankly pretty poor. I'd call it "inconclusive" if they asked me.
A couple of studies referenced
https://news.uark.edu/articles/55480/increased-social-media-...
This one is not limited to Facebook it includes reddit on the list of "social media" sites. I think reddit's one of the most depressing places on the internet so I wouldn't be quick to point the finger at FB here.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...
This study looks at all screen time including playing video games and watching TV. It's not very useful for making a case against Facebook
A couple of studies referenced
https://news.uark.edu/articles/55480/increased-social-media-...
This one is not limited to Facebook it includes reddit on the list of "social media" sites. I think reddit's one of the most depressing places on the internet so I wouldn't be quick to point the finger at FB here.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...
This study looks at all screen time including playing video games and watching TV. It's not very useful for making a case against Facebook
The article is basically saying that the research is pretty poor because Facebook is not sharing the information or creating articles that blurry the actual conclusions.
The article, precisely, asks for more research
The article, precisely, asks for more research
Site like Reddit and Imgur are puzzling. They claim to have great communities, but in reality they are absolutely toxic. Any opinion that’s not in line with that of overall community is instantly attacked and shutdown. If you want diversity you have a much better experience going to 4chan.
'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' - Upton Sinclair
This article discusses correlational evidence. The basis for causation is speculative at best, and there is a long list of cofounding factors.
The side effects of attempting to bar social media usage by teens might further amplify the problem, driving them away from carefully moderated platforms.
The side effects of attempting to bar social media usage by teens might further amplify the problem, driving them away from carefully moderated platforms.
Screen time in general is correlated with depression ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574844/ ), so it shouldn't be surprising that specific screen time activities are correlated with depression.
It's popular to demonize Facebook, but the reality is that sedentary activities in general are highly correlated with depressive symptoms. This goes both ways: Being sedentary instead of active is unhealthy and can exacerbate depression, and being depressed can exacerbate sedentary behavior.
Facebook is just one example of a sedentary activity, but watching TV and using a computer for leisure are also highly correlated with depression.
It's entirely possible that Facebook has some unique properties that make it worse than other sedentary time-wasting activities, but we need to be honest that it might simply be equivalent to other sedentary screen time activities in this regard. Without actual data, we're just guessing and projecting our feelings about Facebook onto correlation studies.
It's popular to demonize Facebook, but the reality is that sedentary activities in general are highly correlated with depressive symptoms. This goes both ways: Being sedentary instead of active is unhealthy and can exacerbate depression, and being depressed can exacerbate sedentary behavior.
Facebook is just one example of a sedentary activity, but watching TV and using a computer for leisure are also highly correlated with depression.
It's entirely possible that Facebook has some unique properties that make it worse than other sedentary time-wasting activities, but we need to be honest that it might simply be equivalent to other sedentary screen time activities in this regard. Without actual data, we're just guessing and projecting our feelings about Facebook onto correlation studies.
> This article discusses correlational evidence. The basis for causation is speculative at best, and there is a long list of cofounding factors.
If you had a well formed hypothesis before conducting a correlational study, and the outcome supported your hypothesis, it is not "just speculative causation" anymore. In fact, short of human experimentation, that is as good of a data as we could ever get.
> The side effects of attempting to bar social media usage by teens might further amplify the problem, driving them away from carefully moderated platforms.
Is there any data, even correlational, for this particular speculation?
If you had a well formed hypothesis before conducting a correlational study, and the outcome supported your hypothesis, it is not "just speculative causation" anymore. In fact, short of human experimentation, that is as good of a data as we could ever get.
> The side effects of attempting to bar social media usage by teens might further amplify the problem, driving them away from carefully moderated platforms.
Is there any data, even correlational, for this particular speculation?
Are you calling Facebook "carefully moderated"?
I certainly am calling Facebook and other mainstream social media more carefully moderated than off-the-beaten-path social networks which glorify anorexia, self-harm and other disorders.
Guess it depends on what you want moderated. I don’t consider Facebook very well moderated. They moderate what helps them sell ads and leave the rest of their sewer alone.
Your very words: "off-the-beaten-path" describes the difference between FB and ... them.
FB does seem to have a moderation system of sorts but it cannot possibly cope with the tsunami of incoming content. FB cannot be considered moderated in any meaningful way unless FB employs a significant proportion of the world's population.
So, I do not agree with you that FB effectively moderate their forum/network. I don't care about other forums/networks - that's whataboutery.
I assert that FB routinely allows: misogyny, misandry, racism and all other forms of hate speech to permeate their network without effective detection, identification and control of such.
Call me out.
FB does seem to have a moderation system of sorts but it cannot possibly cope with the tsunami of incoming content. FB cannot be considered moderated in any meaningful way unless FB employs a significant proportion of the world's population.
So, I do not agree with you that FB effectively moderate their forum/network. I don't care about other forums/networks - that's whataboutery.
I assert that FB routinely allows: misogyny, misandry, racism and all other forms of hate speech to permeate their network without effective detection, identification and control of such.
Call me out.
They have fractionally more moderation after a white nationalist committed the Christchurch massacre. FB remained silent for two weeks in the aftermath then contributed the below (which doesn’t seem to actually name any changes).
There was a strongly negative reaction here on HN when ISPs started blocking access to the killer’s live stream.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/facebook-chief-operating...
There was a strongly negative reaction here on HN when ISPs started blocking access to the killer’s live stream.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/facebook-chief-operating...
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These are very serious issues and I don't in any way mean to minimize them but, honestly, nazis and anti-vaxxers are legion on facebook. These groups both pose serious societal threats especially in the middle of a pandemic.
Moderation is actually the problem. The internet was a better place for everyone when it was just webrings, usenet, and goatse.
The internet was a better place when it didn't have all those people that require moderation.
i think size is actually the problem. smaller moderated communities are way better than facebook or unmoderated shitholes
I think we only feel and think this way because that wss prior to a wider and more gradual Eternal September. I don't think we can go back at this point.
I'd actually attribute that to the technical inaccessibility of the internet meaning that, while not everyone on the internet at that point was smart, they were almost all curious about new things. The user base of the early internet was basically self-selected to be quite full of skeptics.
Yup, you can see this effect all the way to the 2010s, before which "Internet kid" was practically a subculture (or group of subcultures). Once everybody arrived on Facebook, the Internet became an almost-universal social phenomenon. This is cool in its own way, but it also means that "internet people" converges rapidly to "people".
Has there been any further detail on what about social media is linked to depression?
For instance, with Facebook, is it more because of the ads?
Or is it more because of the engagement algorithms?
Or, would it happen even if Facebook were just a reverse-chronological feed, populated only by your chosen friends, with zero advertising?
For instance, with Facebook, is it more because of the ads?
Or is it more because of the engagement algorithms?
Or, would it happen even if Facebook were just a reverse-chronological feed, populated only by your chosen friends, with zero advertising?
Those are good theories, but there are also some larger questions, like can humans stomach being part of a non-local mega tribe? Can they accept that there is no possible way to feel ‘finished’ when there is an infinite amount of content? Does superficial overconsumption of content leave the brain depleted yet unsated?
Hacker News is ad-free and not particularly aggressive with engagement-optimizated sorting, yet I often walk away from HN sessions with mild depression. Also inspiration, defeat, numbness, laughter, and a sense of subtle superiority.
My point is that digital connection, content, and curation is completely novel to ours or any species. Facebook’s use of the technology may be greedy and or detrimental, but the entire paradigm is without precedent.
Hacker News is ad-free and not particularly aggressive with engagement-optimizated sorting, yet I often walk away from HN sessions with mild depression. Also inspiration, defeat, numbness, laughter, and a sense of subtle superiority.
My point is that digital connection, content, and curation is completely novel to ours or any species. Facebook’s use of the technology may be greedy and or detrimental, but the entire paradigm is without precedent.
> Or, would it happen even if Facebook were just a reverse-chronological feed, populated only by your chosen friends, with zero advertising?
We never heard about RSS feed readers causing depression, except when Google cancelled the most popular one.
It's possible that having all of your friendship interactions being quietly censored and reorganized to financially benefit a giant multinational is actually the depressing thing.
Delete your Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp accounts. If you think these systems are bad (and you're right if you do), stop donating content to them to make them more attractive to your friends and family. It's rude and antisocial to push your loved ones toward these abusive systems.
We never heard about RSS feed readers causing depression, except when Google cancelled the most popular one.
It's possible that having all of your friendship interactions being quietly censored and reorganized to financially benefit a giant multinational is actually the depressing thing.
Delete your Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp accounts. If you think these systems are bad (and you're right if you do), stop donating content to them to make them more attractive to your friends and family. It's rude and antisocial to push your loved ones toward these abusive systems.
It appears that screen time in general is linked to depression, with or without Facebook. Example study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5574844/
Binging TV shows, binging Facebook, and binging internet usage in general are all highly correlated with depression.
With correlation, it's important to remember that causation doesn't necessarily flow in only one direction. It's likely that depression causes increased sedentary activity, including Facebook usage. It's also entirely possible that social media usage encourages depression by displacing more productive, healthier activities.
Binging TV shows, binging Facebook, and binging internet usage in general are all highly correlated with depression.
With correlation, it's important to remember that causation doesn't necessarily flow in only one direction. It's likely that depression causes increased sedentary activity, including Facebook usage. It's also entirely possible that social media usage encourages depression by displacing more productive, healthier activities.
Is excessive screen time the cause, the symptom, or it is unrelated?
Some people can become addicted to food, shopping, television, etc. Does that mean that each person that eats food will become addicted? No.
People who become addicted are often people with issues in their dopamine or endorphine systems, and a common way to end up that way is by having a difficult childhood.
Some people can become addicted to food, shopping, television, etc. Does that mean that each person that eats food will become addicted? No.
People who become addicted are often people with issues in their dopamine or endorphine systems, and a common way to end up that way is by having a difficult childhood.
> "Basically all of the things that would contribute to these platforms being healthier for people to use, which is basically spend less time, don't follow strangers, don't spend time passively scrolling through this random feed that's being suggested to you," Hunt says. "That completely undermines their whole business model."
From the article. Sorta gets at what you're asking.
From the article. Sorta gets at what you're asking.
It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking everyone else’s life is perfect because they are always posting photos of the best moments
This is often repeated and I think it's probably true, but I wonder if there's even more to it than this.
Presumably there is some subset of the population that *really is* having much better lives than another subset of the population. I don't think anyone here would deny this, but it must feel different to know this fact in an abstract sense than it is to actually see it.
The topic of meritocracy comes up here from time to time. I don't think such a society could exist, but if it did, wouldn't it be an absolute nightmare for the bottom 20% (50%?) of the population?
Presumably there is some subset of the population that *really is* having much better lives than another subset of the population. I don't think anyone here would deny this, but it must feel different to know this fact in an abstract sense than it is to actually see it.
The topic of meritocracy comes up here from time to time. I don't think such a society could exist, but if it did, wouldn't it be an absolute nightmare for the bottom 20% (50%?) of the population?
I was going to say this myself and it's the exact reason I left all social media platforms. So many times I came away feeling bad about myself, I can do that plenty on my own, I don't need digital help.
It's pretty tiring to see activists and researchers targeting big bad Facebook when clearly the issue is social media as a whole.
An app where the user watches a 5 second video of some rich 18 year old from LA making smoothie bowls. Then the user swipes up to a video of some 22 year old lifting half the weight of an economy sized car. The fact that this isn't obviously depression inducing is concerning.
I know by posting on this site, I'm contributing very little. But there needs to be a campaign against social media. Something that tells the world, this is mood altering and unnaturally over-stimulating. That we weren't meant to lay down slide up at our screens like brain dead slugs watching 5 second clips for 5 hours after work.
Maybe I've become too programmer minded, but we were meant to make things, read books, listen to music, even watching TV shows is more meaningful.
An app where the user watches a 5 second video of some rich 18 year old from LA making smoothie bowls. Then the user swipes up to a video of some 22 year old lifting half the weight of an economy sized car. The fact that this isn't obviously depression inducing is concerning.
I know by posting on this site, I'm contributing very little. But there needs to be a campaign against social media. Something that tells the world, this is mood altering and unnaturally over-stimulating. That we weren't meant to lay down slide up at our screens like brain dead slugs watching 5 second clips for 5 hours after work.
Maybe I've become too programmer minded, but we were meant to make things, read books, listen to music, even watching TV shows is more meaningful.
What is "social media as a whole"?
Does HN count as social media?
Where do you draw the line?
Does HN count as social media?
Where do you draw the line?
Sites where you can peek into other people's lives, or at least what you think is.
To me HN is nothing more innocent than a virtual programming club.
To me HN is nothing more innocent than a virtual programming club.
I sometimes spend hours after work browsing HN and reading articles about tech, trying to keep up with new frameworks or concepts. Seeing everyone understanding stuff in comments is sometimes very depressing as I feel under pressure to match up to what others seem to grok so easily.
So, it can be quite the same as Instagram. The comments on HN are often similar in nature to the Instagram posts in that they only show people at their best, in the sense that they generally wouldn't post if they didn't have something smart to add. But there are so many folks in tech that don't necessarily understand everything.
I am exaggerating a bit here for the sake of argument. There is certainly a difference, but the core reason is often identified as comparing yourself with unrealistic representations of what life, abilities, looks, etc. of others is like. And that can happen in any forum.
So, it can be quite the same as Instagram. The comments on HN are often similar in nature to the Instagram posts in that they only show people at their best, in the sense that they generally wouldn't post if they didn't have something smart to add. But there are so many folks in tech that don't necessarily understand everything.
I am exaggerating a bit here for the sake of argument. There is certainly a difference, but the core reason is often identified as comparing yourself with unrealistic representations of what life, abilities, looks, etc. of others is like. And that can happen in any forum.
Driving to the rich part of town and seeing pretty people in German Luxury Vehicles cut you off could be considered depressing.
The difference between this, HN and social media is that you have an encapsulated view of what you think is someone's personal life.
Some guy on the headline of HN makes a career out of implementing Ruby interpreters. That's great, but that's his work life. He could be divorced with 4 kids. The rich guy with the hot wife that cut you off, he could be an attorney for ExxonMobil or some other miserable high paying role.
Social media is false proof that regardless of status or true well being, you have the opportunity to paint the shape of your life.
The difference between this, HN and social media is that you have an encapsulated view of what you think is someone's personal life.
Some guy on the headline of HN makes a career out of implementing Ruby interpreters. That's great, but that's his work life. He could be divorced with 4 kids. The rich guy with the hot wife that cut you off, he could be an attorney for ExxonMobil or some other miserable high paying role.
Social media is false proof that regardless of status or true well being, you have the opportunity to paint the shape of your life.
I think they have something of a point...
On HN we can look into each other's post history to profile each other which does constitute something of a peek into however much of our lives we have decided to share, and I often see people mention it when disagreeing on each other. There's upvote/downvote/flagging wars on tribally charged matters, as much as Dang does his best to moderate it. All of this has to be driving up cortisol and furthering people's fear and suspicion.
But, on the other hand, HN's design is very web 1.0, and that does curtail the effects a little. You have to click instead of infini-scrolling. If you really want to profile someone, you again have to click through many pages of their post history. I think the warring that happens is endemic to the society and any medium would carry some of it, and I've seen it spilling over into "meat space".
Is HN use V.S. some other social media stemming the tide of poor mental health? I say probably not by much, if at all. Would annihilating all "engagement optimized" social media have positive results on our mental health? I say probably a considerable amount, but not enough to fix what's already broken in too many of us. Being highly optimistic it could drive some sort of "positive feedback loop" if the mental health benefits were somehow reinvested into further healthy decisions for society, but I think a lot of people would just end up in another vice because that's part of the current human condition.
On HN we can look into each other's post history to profile each other which does constitute something of a peek into however much of our lives we have decided to share, and I often see people mention it when disagreeing on each other. There's upvote/downvote/flagging wars on tribally charged matters, as much as Dang does his best to moderate it. All of this has to be driving up cortisol and furthering people's fear and suspicion.
But, on the other hand, HN's design is very web 1.0, and that does curtail the effects a little. You have to click instead of infini-scrolling. If you really want to profile someone, you again have to click through many pages of their post history. I think the warring that happens is endemic to the society and any medium would carry some of it, and I've seen it spilling over into "meat space".
Is HN use V.S. some other social media stemming the tide of poor mental health? I say probably not by much, if at all. Would annihilating all "engagement optimized" social media have positive results on our mental health? I say probably a considerable amount, but not enough to fix what's already broken in too many of us. Being highly optimistic it could drive some sort of "positive feedback loop" if the mental health benefits were somehow reinvested into further healthy decisions for society, but I think a lot of people would just end up in another vice because that's part of the current human condition.
Seeing some of the cool stuff people on HN get to work on, and how much they get paid to do it, can make me quite depressed sometimes.
Warning: This website is known to the State of California to cause depression
I've limited my facebook to following two major kinds of content: 1. Cars (and car related shitposting), and 2. Warhammer.
I do follow close friends too. But basically I don't look at any news, fluff articles, and skip through most ads.
My Instagram is basically the same. Cars, hobby painting, and to be fair, puppies as well.
It's made me feel better.
My Instagram is basically the same. Cars, hobby painting, and to be fair, puppies as well.
It's made me feel better.
Many people I know are simply addicted to the dopamine that IG and FB gives. It's designed this way. I struggle with it too sometimes but I deactivated my FB this week, still have IG. At least that one adds some value to my life.
We will one day look back at social media like we did at cigarettes and soft drinks. The Internet is still developing, it's a shame most people I know simply accept 'this is the way it is' instead of doing something about it.
We will one day look back at social media like we did at cigarettes and soft drinks. The Internet is still developing, it's a shame most people I know simply accept 'this is the way it is' instead of doing something about it.
Facebook is the new tobacco industry.
I'd say more generally that the online advertising (or attention, if you like) industry has massive negative externalities that they are trying to downplay and not take responsibility for.
Imho advertising is a meme that is at odds with humanity (meme as in the original definition).
People worry about ai operating in software, this is an ai that has been running in the collective wetware of humans for some time that is significantly hindering us.
People worry about ai operating in software, this is an ai that has been running in the collective wetware of humans for some time that is significantly hindering us.
________ is the new tobacco industry.
If researchers can produce a result that convinces the powers that be that facebook is a mental health issue they can produce a result that gaming or violent movies or maybe something you indulge is a mental health issue.
If researchers can produce a result that convinces the powers that be that facebook is a mental health issue they can produce a result that gaming or violent movies or maybe something you indulge is a mental health issue.
The new tobacco industry...of decades ago. A long time ago we banned advertising smoking to children (or at least, tried to) but the beforetimes of that decision were rough. Kids commercials for smoking, toy cigarettes, etc. Facebook is actively marketing to youth today just like tobacco did decades ago, indeed.
It's a great analogy because it also works well for adults: we're free to use the product/service, we have our freedom! Even if it slowly (or quickly) kills us.
It's a great analogy because it also works well for adults: we're free to use the product/service, we have our freedom! Even if it slowly (or quickly) kills us.
When I was a kid in the sixties I got chock-like candy cigarettes in my Christmas stocking, and for Halloween. I remember some were a bit powdery and you could blow on them and simulate smoke.
Those were the best! Chalky just like Tums
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_cigarette
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candy_cigarette
You mean social media giants are the new tobacco industry, or just Facebook specifically?
Facebook seems to really have become the whipping boy, despite their falling relevance. Imagine what these depression studies would look like if you did Reddit or 4chan. They get it no matter what they do too. Fail to stop the spread of misinformation in 2016? Come before Congress. Do too much censoring in 2020? Time to break up big tech.
will we live to see the day of wanting to 'work for a faang' as seeming as morally repugnant as wanting to work for monsanto, blackwater, etc? i guess nobody cares _really_ because everyone is addicted to their products, and no one wants to stop using the products because of fear of missing out. they should look into seeing if this stuff is actually making people depressed
It already is the same to me. I do not respect anyone that works for Facebook. They are the same as working for RJ Reynolds tobacco to me. There is no safe dosage or way to use the Facebook product. Maybe we thought there was, but I don't know of anyone that is not harmed by it that has an account.
Apple - some things good (well designed products), some things bad (phone addiction is a real problem, but they do at least try to make a token attempt to curb it)
Amazon - some things good (cheap products at my door instantly almost, don't have to drive and go shop and get ripped off/not find what I need), some things bad (warehouse workers treatment, every product is 4.5 stars even if it is boxed dog crap)
Netflix - sure, probably ok, not harming humans
Google - losing my respect, don't be evil mantra turning into irony
Apple - some things good (well designed products), some things bad (phone addiction is a real problem, but they do at least try to make a token attempt to curb it)
Amazon - some things good (cheap products at my door instantly almost, don't have to drive and go shop and get ripped off/not find what I need), some things bad (warehouse workers treatment, every product is 4.5 stars even if it is boxed dog crap)
Netflix - sure, probably ok, not harming humans
Google - losing my respect, don't be evil mantra turning into irony
> Netflix - sure, probably ok, not harming humans
Consider wiktionary's definitions of the word 'binge':
> A short period of excessive consumption, especially of food, alcohol, narcotics, etc.
> (by extension) A short period of an activity done in excess, such as watching a television show.
The word 'binge' is often used by people to describe their netflix habits (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=netflix%20binge&sort=byPopular...). Insofar as the design of netflix encourages binge consumption, I think netflix is harmful.
Consider wiktionary's definitions of the word 'binge':
> A short period of excessive consumption, especially of food, alcohol, narcotics, etc.
> (by extension) A short period of an activity done in excess, such as watching a television show.
The word 'binge' is often used by people to describe their netflix habits (https://hn.algolia.com/?query=netflix%20binge&sort=byPopular...). Insofar as the design of netflix encourages binge consumption, I think netflix is harmful.
> will we live to see the day of wanting to 'work for a faang' as seeming as morally repugnant as wanting to work for monsanto, blackwater, etc?
Unlikely; I still see resumes with Palantir on them and they're taken seriously in SV companies even outside of the military-industrial complex.
Ultimately most people don't have the energy or economic incentive to care as long as their $15k paychecks show up every month.
Unlikely; I still see resumes with Palantir on them and they're taken seriously in SV companies even outside of the military-industrial complex.
Ultimately most people don't have the energy or economic incentive to care as long as their $15k paychecks show up every month.
Well, I wouldn't consider working for ad-based businesses and don't rely on advertising in business models for my startups.
Some extremists will always try to push for the state of moral indifference (i.e. things are benelovent or evil, only two options)
We are seeing this everywhere already. Examples:
- Voting for republicans means you are killing gay people. Some will go as far as 'no vote' means you kill gay people.
- Working at Facebook means you killed Rohingya.
There is another option: nobody cares _really_ because working at Facebook is in no way as evil as working for the companies that you mentioned.
If we followed the same logic, then TV would be evil. It's addictive and sure cause depression. Hell, Hacker news makes me miserable sometimes with all these Show HN posts...
We are seeing this everywhere already. Examples:
- Voting for republicans means you are killing gay people. Some will go as far as 'no vote' means you kill gay people.
- Working at Facebook means you killed Rohingya.
There is another option: nobody cares _really_ because working at Facebook is in no way as evil as working for the companies that you mentioned.
If we followed the same logic, then TV would be evil. It's addictive and sure cause depression. Hell, Hacker news makes me miserable sometimes with all these Show HN posts...
Amazon, Apple, Netflix or Google are not even in the same ballpark of evil and destructive to humanity as Facebook. Facebook literally adds nothing enriching to our lives other than just being a vampire hanging over everyone's head. I'd have no problem working for any of the other faangs (as a matter of fact I did work for one of them until a couple of years ago) but I'd never consider working at Facebook.
Unpopular opinion but I think some parts of Facebook like creating events, groups (to some extent) and messaging are super useful. The problem is that the newsfeed (which is arguably the most damaging part) is what Facebook pushes the most because that's where all the ads are.
I don't know. Do you remember the Foxconn due to the low pay and abuse they were getting to make Apple products? Or how Apple is trying to restrict our software freedoms with walled gardens and lawsuits? Everything they do is about controlling the narrative, the market, the ecosystem. If they had beat Microsoft in the 1990s, we'd be in a very different dystopia right now. Seems worse than a company that makes optional ad-supported social networking products.
In 2021, it's hard to argue that any use of social media (and to a large extent, allowing technology to permeate your daily life) is desirable, and quite easy to argue that it's to your detriment.
Funny, a bunch of years ago I'd look at groups like the Amish or religious Jews, whose ways naturally kept them out of these trends - as somewhat backwards, and missing out. But now it seems like their ways shield and protect them from these things in a way that may soon be the envy of most others.
Funny, a bunch of years ago I'd look at groups like the Amish or religious Jews, whose ways naturally kept them out of these trends - as somewhat backwards, and missing out. But now it seems like their ways shield and protect them from these things in a way that may soon be the envy of most others.
So another piece of evidence suggesting that unhealthy social media use exacerbates depression. Am I the only one desensitized to hearing about how bad social media is for you. I've heard it so often that now my first thought when I hear that is, "yeah, duh."
But no one ever listens. People who post stories about how they "quit social media and never felt better" get tons of attention because most people recognized that social media is bad for them. But just like a drug, everyone is aware of these feelings but never listens to them. Those posts also remind people of their bad relationship with social media which puts them in an even deeper spell of unhappiness. So, in order to feel better about themselves they go on Facebook and watch Dude Perfect videos until they're numb.
Here is some unsolicited advice: just stop. That's it. It's the same with other forms of addiction (with the exception of drugs that can kill when you go cold turky. Luckily, social media is not one of them), you just stop doing them. What do they do in rehabilitation? They distract you from thoughts about drugs and try to create other avenues for you to get the reward mechanisms drugs gave you before. But really all that boils down to is you just stopping and moving on.
But no one ever listens. People who post stories about how they "quit social media and never felt better" get tons of attention because most people recognized that social media is bad for them. But just like a drug, everyone is aware of these feelings but never listens to them. Those posts also remind people of their bad relationship with social media which puts them in an even deeper spell of unhappiness. So, in order to feel better about themselves they go on Facebook and watch Dude Perfect videos until they're numb.
Here is some unsolicited advice: just stop. That's it. It's the same with other forms of addiction (with the exception of drugs that can kill when you go cold turky. Luckily, social media is not one of them), you just stop doing them. What do they do in rehabilitation? They distract you from thoughts about drugs and try to create other avenues for you to get the reward mechanisms drugs gave you before. But really all that boils down to is you just stopping and moving on.
I've no love for Facebook and the rest of social media - I can't help but hear this latest warning as just the current "think of the children".
We've had Elvis's hips, communists, hippies, satanic rock, video-nasties, murder-simulating computer games, raves and have worked our way through at least 3 waves of 'internet panic' My guess is we'll rank this discussion in retrospect the same way as those previous 'issues'
When I read a story about "the Republican congresswoman from Washington confronted Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg" I can almost hear the mantra instilled in Mark's head "Don't say nobody under 30 is using Facebook, say anything, admit anything, just appear relevant"
Now I'm definitely not saying social media is blameless - but it's not invented aspirational capitalism or bullying. It existed, will always exist, and just uses the conduits available.
If we consider the message, not the messenger, I actually think "the youth of today" is far better adjusted than I was at their age.
But we're not allowed to say that are we? There's never been a generation than looks at the new one, and collectively says they're better than us.
We've had Elvis's hips, communists, hippies, satanic rock, video-nasties, murder-simulating computer games, raves and have worked our way through at least 3 waves of 'internet panic' My guess is we'll rank this discussion in retrospect the same way as those previous 'issues'
When I read a story about "the Republican congresswoman from Washington confronted Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg" I can almost hear the mantra instilled in Mark's head "Don't say nobody under 30 is using Facebook, say anything, admit anything, just appear relevant"
Now I'm definitely not saying social media is blameless - but it's not invented aspirational capitalism or bullying. It existed, will always exist, and just uses the conduits available.
If we consider the message, not the messenger, I actually think "the youth of today" is far better adjusted than I was at their age.
But we're not allowed to say that are we? There's never been a generation than looks at the new one, and collectively says they're better than us.
I don't think everyone sees it as just a "children" issue - it's not like the topic doesn't come up when it's about adults. But children is the angle laws can hit the easiest, and it does hit an extra "think of the children" emotional spot. And mental health among adults is more of a taboo topic politically. So I think it is a mix.
To disagree, I don't think the topic does come up when discussing (voting) adults.
Does your politican campaign on a policy that specifically sets out reduces self-harm or suicide in their adult electorate?
"Let me be judged if I don't reduce suicides by 5% in my term!"
No. Because that's not what we want to hear. We want to be left alone with our guns and alcohol, but by all means help me with my teenager listening to "rap music" or being upset as her bullying classmate was unkind to her on tiktok.
Does your politican campaign on a policy that specifically sets out reduces self-harm or suicide in their adult electorate?
"Let me be judged if I don't reduce suicides by 5% in my term!"
No. Because that's not what we want to hear. We want to be left alone with our guns and alcohol, but by all means help me with my teenager listening to "rap music" or being upset as her bullying classmate was unkind to her on tiktok.
The U.S. did ban alcohol once. It didn't go over well.
and I believe it did reduce suicide rates.
I think if I had to summarize, voters will vote to give themselves choices (however harmful) - whilst patting themselves on the back for voting to restrict others for their own protection.
I think if I had to summarize, voters will vote to give themselves choices (however harmful) - whilst patting themselves on the back for voting to restrict others for their own protection.
I completely agree.
There's an additional aspect, though. Voters will vote against new restrictions for themselves, but will vote to keep existing restrictions that have been around a long time.
A fun example (quoted from https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/11/self-serving-bias):
> Oregon is one of two US states that bans self-service gas stations. Recently, they passed a law relaxing this restriction – self-service is permissible in some rural counties during odd hours of the night. Outraged Oregonians took to social media to protest that self-service was unsafe, that it would destroy jobs, that breathing in gas fumes would kill people, that gas pumping had to be performed by properly credentialed experts – seemingly unaware that most of the rest of the country and the world does it without a second thought.
So maybe we like freedoms that we're used to, but also like the benefits (or perceived benefits in the above example) of restrictions that we're used to.
(I don't know if disapproval of allowing self-service was widespread or was just a small number of people posting on social media, but it makes a good story.)
There's an additional aspect, though. Voters will vote against new restrictions for themselves, but will vote to keep existing restrictions that have been around a long time.
A fun example (quoted from https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/11/self-serving-bias):
> Oregon is one of two US states that bans self-service gas stations. Recently, they passed a law relaxing this restriction – self-service is permissible in some rural counties during odd hours of the night. Outraged Oregonians took to social media to protest that self-service was unsafe, that it would destroy jobs, that breathing in gas fumes would kill people, that gas pumping had to be performed by properly credentialed experts – seemingly unaware that most of the rest of the country and the world does it without a second thought.
So maybe we like freedoms that we're used to, but also like the benefits (or perceived benefits in the above example) of restrictions that we're used to.
(I don't know if disapproval of allowing self-service was widespread or was just a small number of people posting on social media, but it makes a good story.)
The data being used to back this is very much a "children" issue, a adolescent female issue to be exact. The rate of depression stated to skyrocket in 2012 for this specific group.
This also seems to be an obvious counter to the implied hypothesis that "rate of depression increases linearly with facebook usage" since they launched in like 2005 or so, grew steadily from at least 2007, and also have most likely seen a significant decline in usage among adolescents in the recent years.
This also seems to be an obvious counter to the implied hypothesis that "rate of depression increases linearly with facebook usage" since they launched in like 2005 or so, grew steadily from at least 2007, and also have most likely seen a significant decline in usage among adolescents in the recent years.
You could arguably better correlate that with teenagers gaining access to personal image sharing devices .. i.e. camera phones, and publishing platforms i.e. they can share photos/videos ... systemically the issue is self worth being largely wrapped up in how pretty you are perceived to be, which is a social/cultural problem.
Watching a happy and polite teenage daughter become horrifically depressed and nasty when on social media is a gut punch.
Several years of off of it for multiple months. Very happy.
On it for a couple of months. Depressed and nasty. Every single time. We were always the bad guys for restricting.
She’s moved out and married now. Now talks about how depressed she gets on it.
Several years of off of it for multiple months. Very happy.
On it for a couple of months. Depressed and nasty. Every single time. We were always the bad guys for restricting.
She’s moved out and married now. Now talks about how depressed she gets on it.
Yes. It must be social media.
Teenagers were previously well known for being bundles of joy.
And for thanking their parents for imposing rules.
Still, good to know that you were right and she knows this now.
fwiw, this comment also isn't really in the spirit of the "open discussion" you miss.
The point was not made in a generous way, but it's worth considering that adolescence is famously - and in Western culture universally - viewed as a time of great emotional distress, raging hormones, rapid physical change, rebellion, and so on. And the OP's point was specifically that every generation seems to blame the "new thing" for this exact phenomenon, to the point where it is now obvious that it is not the "new thing" but instead maybe something less ephemeral.
It wasn't - and I made it more personal than I'd have liked now I re-read it (but I wrote it, so I'm leaving it up).
I like your post.
I like your post.
Agreed - I was being a dick.
Well, effect size is effect size, but this is non generalizable. Still, it looks like you have a clear intervention in the n=1 case which is great!
As my opinion appears less popular than I'd expected.
I'd be humbly interested to know what populist historical saving of youth policy (specifically when you were a youth), you think was worthwile.
After posting I did realize I'd omitted the "parental advisory" sticker on CDs.. I still think this is my favourite.
I'd be humbly interested to know what populist historical saving of youth policy (specifically when you were a youth), you think was worthwile.
After posting I did realize I'd omitted the "parental advisory" sticker on CDs.. I still think this is my favourite.
Oh the ESRB definitely. I hated it but in retrospect, there's no telling what sort of maniac I'd be if I'd grown up marinated in ultra violent video games.
Proving that Facebook "causes" depression seems like a pretty high bar. Showing that Facebook contributes to or exacerbates an underlying propensity for depression seems to have strong support in the current research. The more interesting question is how does Facebook amplify this as an underlying tendency of social media in general (or even what we euphemistically refer to as "being online")? Who's more depressed, Facebook users or Twitter users? Why is that?
The only useful stat in the graphic is the bottom one "were injured in a suicide attempt that had to be treated by a doctor or nurse", which seems easily quantifiable and interpretable. Sadly, since they don't show longer term context it's hard to know the significance of a change from 1.9% to 2.5% (is this stat historically variable across years?). Language and what is acceptable to talk about change so much over time that the rest of the stats are useless.
Being in the tech field, platforms like LinkedIn though very helpful with getting jobs and connecting with people, also creates a huge sense of self-doubt and always makes you feel you haven't achieved enough, even though you actually have. Can't even avoid going on there when looking for jobs with all the notifications and everything. Not sure what could be changed on LinkedIn to change that.
Facebook and Instagram are based in shame, the feeling that you are somehow unworthy or less worthy. this is where advertisers need you to be to successfully sell you their products. imnsho, shame is the root of a lot of anxiety, and a gateway to depression.
My post below got downvoted.
That made me a bit sad. I thought I'd made a good point, hadn't meant to upset anybody, would have been open to discussion on it, but..
That made me a bit sad. I thought I'd made a good point, hadn't meant to upset anybody, would have been open to discussion on it, but..
Your post made a comeback. People in different timezones feel different and strongly about what you wrote. The discussion is divisive and largely reinforces what we individually already believe. For people experiencing the problems of a new, unregulated cultural force it's just too real, too immediate. The problems of the past were real, but they're not that real to us anymore. Worth pointing at to reinforce our own ideas about today, but not worth equating to today's stuff as a means of settling ourselves down.
shame (feeling comparatively unworthy) is the root of anxiety, and it's the magic exilir of advertising and selling. it's also a gateway to depression. imnsho, that's how FB, etc., link to depression.
surely they will limit this to data collected from US right?
Personally I
Back in 1997, I briefly hung around a criminal who ran a crew known to the feds. I'd drive around with him on non-crime stuff related to his "day job" (front).
I've been dealing with various forms of stalking, hacking, harassment and targeting since, almost certainly tied back in large part to that brief association in 1997. Last spring (2020), this man who I haven't seen or communicated with since the late 1990's, was scheduled to be released from federal prison. Around that day, my Facebook's "people you may know" was littered with county sheriffs and task force types in his area, all shown to me in a row. I have been thousands of miles away from that area since the mid 2000's.
I'm at a major low point now, middle aged, broken down, homeless, defeated with learned helplessness well-established. Being targeted for so long was a major contributing factor. The irony is that I didn't engage in criminal activity with this person, and only hung around him briefly.
Facebook, I'd like to see all of the data you keep on me. The secret dossier, the govt lists, the algos you use, the logs you've created, the supposed "ai we don't understand". All of it. Same for google, twitter and the rest.
Information asymmetry isn't making end users happy in many cases. I'm fucking creeped out by these malicious machines we've allowed SV to create. Thank God I don't have kids because I plan on departing this shithole ape planet soon -- it ain't gonna get better any time soon.
Needless to say, I don't use FB any longer.
Fsck Facebook. And Google, twitter and reddit. I've been targeted on all of these platforms and more.
I've been dealing with various forms of stalking, hacking, harassment and targeting since, almost certainly tied back in large part to that brief association in 1997. Last spring (2020), this man who I haven't seen or communicated with since the late 1990's, was scheduled to be released from federal prison. Around that day, my Facebook's "people you may know" was littered with county sheriffs and task force types in his area, all shown to me in a row. I have been thousands of miles away from that area since the mid 2000's.
I'm at a major low point now, middle aged, broken down, homeless, defeated with learned helplessness well-established. Being targeted for so long was a major contributing factor. The irony is that I didn't engage in criminal activity with this person, and only hung around him briefly.
Facebook, I'd like to see all of the data you keep on me. The secret dossier, the govt lists, the algos you use, the logs you've created, the supposed "ai we don't understand". All of it. Same for google, twitter and the rest.
Information asymmetry isn't making end users happy in many cases. I'm fucking creeped out by these malicious machines we've allowed SV to create. Thank God I don't have kids because I plan on departing this shithole ape planet soon -- it ain't gonna get better any time soon.
Needless to say, I don't use FB any longer.
Fsck Facebook. And Google, twitter and reddit. I've been targeted on all of these platforms and more.
Social networking companies seem more like tobacco companies every day.
double negative headlines suck
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I agree with this comment 100% - please increase the value of my facebook shares.
Why isn’t the mental health of people using its platform a priority for Facebook?
Because its revenues are dependent on users being addicted to its service.
Your question is akin to asking why are crack dealers not worried about the health of their customers.
Your question is akin to asking why are crack dealers not worried about the health of their customers.
But you could apply that to any business
"They sell tasty food, to keep them eating it"
or
"They mow the green to keep them golfing on it"
What business can you possibly think of tha manages to succeed without making their consumers want to consume?
"They sell tasty food, to keep them eating it"
or
"They mow the green to keep them golfing on it"
What business can you possibly think of tha manages to succeed without making their consumers want to consume?
Well crack dealers all want their customers to be immortal customers - but they'd prefer it if their customers were customers for longer compared to alive for longer.
It’s not about longevity, it’s about LTV.
If the consumption, and hence value, is high, the LTV can be maximized even if the lifetime is low.
If the consumption, and hence value, is high, the LTV can be maximized even if the lifetime is low.
Well, simply because it doesn’t involve itself in it. For instance, one might well ask “Why does the Forestry department not care about the mental health of visitors?”
They don’t, except incidentally, because they have an orthogonal pursuit - that of the preservation, maintenance, and accessibility of our forests.
They don’t, except incidentally, because they have an orthogonal pursuit - that of the preservation, maintenance, and accessibility of our forests.
I have never heard of a profit-seeking enterprise that has considered making mental health a priority and would never, ever, EVER expect one to. Or am I just missing the snarkiness of this comment?
None of this would be a problem with a user configurable feed and not whatever crap they throw at you
One would think so, but Instagram’s feed is highly configurable. I only see stuff that my friends have posted, all stories are chronological, and there’s a little “you’ve caught up” anti-doomscroller card.
However, Instagram is supposed to be Public Enemy No 1. So that’s clearly not the problem.
However, Instagram is supposed to be Public Enemy No 1. So that’s clearly not the problem.
If Facebook were to just disappear tomorrow all of humanity would be better off. I am not saying it would solve all our problems but I think it gives such a boost to humanity in so many spheres that it instantly pushes us on a much more positive trajectory.
If we're talking about general good, I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would pick Facebook as "the thing" to disappear. I mean aside from the idealistic candidates like Wars or Guns, what about cigarettes, alcohol or all the other drugs that are widely used, have clear connections to depression and most of which will also literally kill you if overused? I really doubt getting rid of Facebook would do the world more good than any of those candidates. But of cause freedom of choice and let each pick their own poisen etc.
I know it's not realistic but it still gets to your head.
I uninstalled it from my phone I feel better about myself after a few weeks.
I'm guessing most of, if not all, social media is the same. I'm slowly trying to ween myself off but it is so meticulously addictive.