Tesla is found guilty of throttling charging speed(electrek.co)
electrek.co
Tesla is found guilty of throttling charging speed
https://electrek.co/2021/05/24/tesla-found-guilty-throttling-charging-speed-asked-pay-16000-thousands-owners/
170 comments
I yearn for a simple electric car which is not connected, and does not have a lot of touch screens or features. Can you imagine? A cheap electric car with a radio and crank windows, and basically nothing else? It would be a dream.
Probably not what your looking for but this cheap Chinese thing springs to mind:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56178802
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56178802
I am long past over crank windows. Like decades over having to crank down a window.
That said, you could probably build this pretty easily - folks have been converting old vehicles into electric cars for, well, decades as well.
That said, you could probably build this pretty easily - folks have been converting old vehicles into electric cars for, well, decades as well.
Crank windows are good because they're cheaper and lighter than electric windows. There's no heavy electric motor in each door. It's not that they're necessary, so much that saving money on frivolous features is nice!
They are not always frivolous. For example, I have a car which rolls down the windows about an inch when the door is opened, because the door does not have a frame that fully encases the window. So it's a glass preservation feature in that case, and the loss of the steel to fully encase the window probably saved weight over the window motors.
And TBH, electric motors aren't that heavy. You still need all the gearing and such with a hand crank.
And TBH, electric motors aren't that heavy. You still need all the gearing and such with a hand crank.
But what if your window cranking was charging your battery? :D
What if we skip the battery part, use crank as the power unit? Boom, bicycle! :D
They have these in Berlin now. Hermes et al are using them as last mile delivery vans. I see them every day and I love it.
https://hermesworld.com/int/about-us/responsibility/service-...
and newer: https://onomotion.com/en/
https://hermesworld.com/int/about-us/responsibility/service-...
and newer: https://onomotion.com/en/
Agreed. Why do all electric cars also need software updates and tons of bells and whistles? Just because I want electric doesn't mean I also want a touchscreen console etc.
> Why do all electric cars also need software updates
Because charging and managing modern EV batteries for optimal range and lifetime is complicated? That's my understanding anyway. If this was easy to do without all the software, why would the manufacturers spend money on it?
Because charging and managing modern EV batteries for optimal range and lifetime is complicated? That's my understanding anyway. If this was easy to do without all the software, why would the manufacturers spend money on it?
And how often would they need to do software updates strictly for charging and managing batteries? I would think it is far less than the updates for the "tons of bells and whistles".
That's like asking why a simple one page website, loads 19 js libraries, and 12 fonts...
Tracking people and their cars is very profitable?
Also electronics like that have come so far down in price that it adds very little to the overall manufacturing cost whilest making the car feel more premium.
Power windows are such a commodity now I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper to make a car with power windows rather than cranks.
Power windows are such a commodity now I wouldn't be surprised if it's cheaper to make a car with power windows rather than cranks.
For the Chevy Bolt they've had a similar software update to reduce the risk of burning your house down, which seems better than the alternative of not having that update.
But they've also been agreeing to buy people's cars back if it's an issue, since selling someone a car with a particular range capacity and then reducing it afterward is obviously problematic.
The Bolt's battery reduction is supposed to be temporary while the final recall fix was worked out. I don't have one so I haven't been following the current news on whether that's been sorted.
In Tesla's case here it sounds worse, because this might be a permanent change where they just said "lol your car is permanently worse now, have fun."
But they've also been agreeing to buy people's cars back if it's an issue, since selling someone a car with a particular range capacity and then reducing it afterward is obviously problematic.
The Bolt's battery reduction is supposed to be temporary while the final recall fix was worked out. I don't have one so I haven't been following the current news on whether that's been sorted.
In Tesla's case here it sounds worse, because this might be a permanent change where they just said "lol your car is permanently worse now, have fun."
> In Tesla's case here it sounds even worse, because this was a permanent change and they just said "lol your car is permanently worse now, deal with it."
Although in Tesla's case they have been updating the software to restore capacity and charging speeds in many of these cases.
The complete lack of communication is a real problem, though.
Although in Tesla's case they have been updating the software to restore capacity and charging speeds in many of these cases.
The complete lack of communication is a real problem, though.
All we know is that it's a change to numbers on the screen. Did anyone actually demonstrate reduced range?
Bcause they can be a tech company
Elon's intent was to make electric cars sexy, you know, for the environment and all that. While we techpeople understand the cost and danger of superfluous tech, most people just go "wooo touch screen thing and iphone app for my car kewl"
Because the car industry has bamboozled people with the acronym "EV/AV".
They don't sell electric vehicles. Their boffins are working on "EV/AV".
They don't sell electric vehicles. Their boffins are working on "EV/AV".
Because Tesla's initial target audience is not you and me, but people who buy the fanciest, latest iPhones every year.
If you're curious, I'd recommend reading Moore's "Crossing the Chasm". I'm entirely for electric cars, but I'm part of what Moore would call the "mainstream market". I don't want a car to be amazing and cutting edge. I want it to work unobtrusively and very reliably. That means that I'm going to be hard to persuade and will want to wait for evidence.
That makes me a terrible initial Tesla customer. For a new tech product, you want early adopters, as they will happily spend money on things that don't work very well. You want the kind of people who will, sight unseen, spend $500 on a flamethrower that isn't a flamethrower. [1]
So given Musk's brand and given the size and wealth of the user base you'd need to launch a new car company, it's pretty much inevitable that Tesla (and now its competitors) were going to mine the technophiles who are happy to pay a premium for sealed-box gee-whizzery.
The good news is that the electric car market will be getting more boring over time. There a lot more people in the more conservative market segments, so although we aren't as profitable per unit as the early adopters, plenty of companies will eventually be addressing our needs.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/10/17445838/boring-company-f...
If you're curious, I'd recommend reading Moore's "Crossing the Chasm". I'm entirely for electric cars, but I'm part of what Moore would call the "mainstream market". I don't want a car to be amazing and cutting edge. I want it to work unobtrusively and very reliably. That means that I'm going to be hard to persuade and will want to wait for evidence.
That makes me a terrible initial Tesla customer. For a new tech product, you want early adopters, as they will happily spend money on things that don't work very well. You want the kind of people who will, sight unseen, spend $500 on a flamethrower that isn't a flamethrower. [1]
So given Musk's brand and given the size and wealth of the user base you'd need to launch a new car company, it's pretty much inevitable that Tesla (and now its competitors) were going to mine the technophiles who are happy to pay a premium for sealed-box gee-whizzery.
The good news is that the electric car market will be getting more boring over time. There a lot more people in the more conservative market segments, so although we aren't as profitable per unit as the early adopters, plenty of companies will eventually be addressing our needs.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/10/17445838/boring-company-f...
I thought I wanted a Tesla until I saw the inane techbro language they use on the centre console. They need to rollout a language pack for people with a mental age north of 5 if they want to cross the chasm. It would piss me off mighty to be confronted with that every time I got into the car.
Interesting! Could you say more? I'd looked at some console images, but they didn't have much text.
Here is a pretty good example https://youtu.be/pXvIzWhEWvA?t=332
Wow, that's awful. Yet more proof I'm not in Tesla's target audience.
I suspect you aren't part of "the mainstream market". The main stream buys Android phones full of pre-installed software, Windows laptops full of pre-installed software. They fill both with anything and everything and don't worry one wit about control or privacy or anything else. They buy TVs with built in OSes and ads.
Those like you (and me sometimes) who do worry about this stuff are not the mainstream market at all.
Those like you (and me sometimes) who do worry about this stuff are not the mainstream market at all.
It doesn't work like that. People fall into different categories for different sorts of product. For some things I'm in the earliest of markets. For some things, I'm in the latest. For cars, I am definitely a mainstream purchaser.
Note also that Moore's model is specifically about adoption of technology. There are plenty of other dimensions to markets, especially ones where the technology is mature. I think you're talking about people who tend to optimize for initial low price, and are insensitive to other concerns. Which again, people vary on based on product and need. E.g., I have a Pixel 3A because it was good value without junkware and other corner-cutting. But my headphones are the <$20 semi-disposable kind.
Note also that Moore's model is specifically about adoption of technology. There are plenty of other dimensions to markets, especially ones where the technology is mature. I think you're talking about people who tend to optimize for initial low price, and are insensitive to other concerns. Which again, people vary on based on product and need. E.g., I have a Pixel 3A because it was good value without junkware and other corner-cutting. But my headphones are the <$20 semi-disposable kind.
There's the Wuling HongGuang Mini EV.
I think it has electric windows, but not much else.
https://media.gm.com/media/cn/en/gm/news.detail.html/content...
https://media.gm.com/media/cn/en/gm/news.detail.html/content...
That's interesting -- is it not connected? I frankly saw that it was a Chinese car, and simply assumed that it would be fully connected like a Chinese Android phone.
Most of the stuff in this list (electric cars in the 20k range) probably fits your bill: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/99735/the-cheapest-e...
Though they probably do mostly have electric windows; that's more or less a standard feature these days.
Though they probably do mostly have electric windows; that's more or less a standard feature these days.
I’m with you on this.
The ev convention scene provides just that!
Just buy an old Ford Electric. The range is pretty decent and you can sometimes find them for around $13k or less if you're lucky. (Perhaps rarer these days with used car prices going up)
The alternative route that I've looking into is to just do the mod myself on an old classic car. There are a few great ev conversion companies like evWest (https://evwest.com/catalog/) and Electric GT (https://electricgt.com/) that offer drop in crates and motors that you can mount. It's not "easy" by any stretch of the imagination but it's a great option to have if you have the time and skills to do so.
The alternative route that I've looking into is to just do the mod myself on an old classic car. There are a few great ev conversion companies like evWest (https://evwest.com/catalog/) and Electric GT (https://electricgt.com/) that offer drop in crates and motors that you can mount. It's not "easy" by any stretch of the imagination but it's a great option to have if you have the time and skills to do so.
I looked into this a while ago— one of the barriers was finding suitable cars to use for the donor body. Ideally you want something with high mileage, so that the engine/transmission are basically worthless, but where the body is in good shape as far as rust, paint, etc. You also probably want RWD for ease of integration.
Finding an old car body is probably the least complex part of this though. There are thousands of decent bodies with junk motors in every state in the US. The barrier is batteries. Batteries are monumentally expensive, especially if you aren't buying them used from scrap vehicles.
I think it depends a lot what you're buying. If you want an 80kWh pack like a Tesla, then yeah, that's going to be $10k or whatever, but a lot of BEV conversion projects are looking more at an around-town car anyway, where a 50km range might be adequate, especially as a starting point while you get everything else working.
So yeah, if that's your target, then you can build a much smaller and cheaper pack out of prismatic cells, eg:
https://evsource.com/collections/calb-1/products/calb-100ah
So like, 20 of those is $2800 and would get you 6.4kWh (range of like 30-40km).
So yeah, if that's your target, then you can build a much smaller and cheaper pack out of prismatic cells, eg:
https://evsource.com/collections/calb-1/products/calb-100ah
So like, 20 of those is $2800 and would get you 6.4kWh (range of like 30-40km).
Renault Espace had (has?) a plastic body.
> if you have the time and skills to do so.
Or the cash?
Are there companies that will convert your favorite car to electric, or is that just too much of a liability minefield in the USA?
Or the cash?
Are there companies that will convert your favorite car to electric, or is that just too much of a liability minefield in the USA?
Certainly you can contact some of these companies to get quotes but it's so costly to convert classic vehicles that you might as well just go buy a recent electric car like a Bolt or Focus. It's mostly a cost thing. Also you need to consider the cost of the motor / type and especially (and this is the most important bit) the battery pack. If you're looking to install something like a Tesla battery pack you're probably looking at $10k at least for the pack alone. Could be wrong, but worth looking into local shops - there aren't many that have the expertise that I'm aware of outside evwest and electricgt. I'd be happy to hear of more
My last car cost less than $10,000. I think this may be beyond my means.
Kind of makes sense though? Teslas start at 30k, and you’re not paying them for the fancy bodywork.
I'm sure it costs a fortune, but having a classic car that can still get around once all the gas pumps are gone would be a pretty cool thing even if it's only a rich-people thing:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a3...
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a3...
I will say that I've gotten a quote for an entire conversion kit that includes a Tesla Model S battery pack, motor, controllers, custom couplers for about $20k for my Jeep Wrangler. It's obviously not going to get good range since the Jeep is a giant box but all things considered I paid about 7500 for my old jeep to restore so $20k on top of that is basically a brand new Jeep (and quite a bit cheaper than brand new high end electric vehicles and hybrids). So, not completely out of the question
[deleted]
Relative to car prices, converting them is not that expensive when done on a budget. Converted mini-cooper at 4k all in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRnFzklXi4o&list=RDCMUCfV0_w...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRnFzklXi4o&list=RDCMUCfV0_w...
I have two door 89 Honda Accord I plan to get running again next year. For a while I thought it would be fun to add electric motors to the back wheels. Give a little boost off the line or maybe experiment with adding a little push around corners.
After seeing the prices for electric motors I'm probably just going to get it running instead.
After seeing the prices for electric motors I'm probably just going to get it running instead.
Or slide windows like the old Land Rovers.
Well, do I have the thing for YOU!
https://www.solarcarchallenge.org/challenge/photos.shtml
https://www.solarcarchallenge.org/challenge/photos.shtml
I feel you. But this way, the entire car industry would be bankrupt in a couple of years. There's a reason why nobody is offering a cheap, $10,000 dollar, battery-swappable, raw and simple, half-a-ton-light electric car.
> There's a reason why nobody is offering a cheap, $10,000 dollar, battery-swappable, raw and simple, half-a-ton-light electric car.
What is the reason? Don't automotive manufacturers offer cheap ICE cars? Why would a cheap EV bankrupt them but not cheap ICE cars?
What is the reason? Don't automotive manufacturers offer cheap ICE cars? Why would a cheap EV bankrupt them but not cheap ICE cars?
Battery supply is the bottleneck currently. Even if they wanted to, the automakers cannot switch to even 20% production being electric. If they offer an attractive, affordable EV, they immediately render the rest of their fleet obsolete and 90% of their factories go idle. Price is used to modulate the demand.
I literally just want a Peugeot 206 with an electric motor.
Every inch of the car is well understood. Cheap and reliable parts are available all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_206
Every inch of the car is well understood. Cheap and reliable parts are available all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_206
I have something close to this with my 2015 Nissan Leaf S. No internet connectivity at all. It's also extremely cheap. I paid ~$13k for it in 2018 with ~25k miles. The range is kind of bad compared to most other electric cars though.
There are people on youtube that fit used tesla engine/batteries to vintage cars
Tesla Roadster? But not cheap. Maybe an older Nissan Leaf.
Seriously, me too. I will keep furiously burning fossil fuels until said car is available, and reject all guilt. Any and all emissions produced in the meantime are the fault of the spyware-car industry.
Seriously, me too. I will keep furiously burning fossil fuels until said car is available, and reject all guilt. Any and all emissions produced in the meantime are the fault of the spyware-car industry.
You near on describe the first cars, which were electric and was the combustion engine that took over thru it's ease of fuel delivery and mileage.
Nice read here that history https://mg.co.uk/behind-the-wheel/electric/the-history-of-el...
Nice read here that history https://mg.co.uk/behind-the-wheel/electric/the-history-of-el...
Renault Zoe, hyundai ioniq, there are plenty of..
And even cheaper if you live in the city: Renault Twizy, Citroën ami, ...
And even cheaper if you live in the city: Renault Twizy, Citroën ami, ...
I think the Citroen Ami might get close to what you want.
It’s amazingly small, underpowered, and cost efficient (for example, they don’t manufacture separate left and right doors for it, the passenger-side door just opens backwards).
https://www.citroen.com/en/Highlight/131/ami-100t-electric-m...
I really hope that _these_ are the kinds of cars that will get us to mass adoption and not Teslas.
It’s amazingly small, underpowered, and cost efficient (for example, they don’t manufacture separate left and right doors for it, the passenger-side door just opens backwards).
https://www.citroen.com/en/Highlight/131/ami-100t-electric-m...
I really hope that _these_ are the kinds of cars that will get us to mass adoption and not Teslas.
The Citroën Ami is a no permit car, so it is a bit specific and probably won't be used by people who need a car to travel between cities.
The Renault Zoe is a "normal" car and fit the bill for a more "simple" electric car. They now have the Twingo Electric also which is the size of a usual twingo (roughly like a Citroën C1/Peugeot 107) and cheaper than the Zoe.
The Renault Zoe is a "normal" car and fit the bill for a more "simple" electric car. They now have the Twingo Electric also which is the size of a usual twingo (roughly like a Citroën C1/Peugeot 107) and cheaper than the Zoe.
But it is connected. Thereby it can be remotely disabled. Which actually happened a few times. Because the battery is rented...
Just a search for "Renault remote disabled" should be sufficient to get you some headlines.
Cheers!
Just a search for "Renault remote disabled" should be sufficient to get you some headlines.
Cheers!
The price difference is huge. Ami is €6,000 (incl. VAT) while the Renault Zoe is £27,595 and the Twingo Electric is €20,690-€24,790
I mean, yes. But the price difference between a bike and the Ami is also huge.
It’s because they’re different things.
It’s because they’re different things.
This is beautiful. To me, cars are appliances and I couldn't care less what they're like as long as they get me from point A to B safely and at minimal cost and time. I hope we get something like this in the US one day.
The number of people who will drive a clown car like that is pretty small.
Well no. This is a "no permit" car. It is a type of car that you can drive without a driving license in France (you just need to pass the written exam). These are always very small (due to their nature), and are actually quite popular, mostly in city. Either because they are used by people who lost their driving license but still need a car in the meantime, or they are used by people who live in the city and don't want to bother getting their driving license (which is much more expensive and time-consuming in France than in the U.S).
It's a quadricycle, not a "clown car", and with an excellent price / quality ratio.
45 kph, range of 70 km, at 6000 euros.
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/citroen-says-ami-ev-w...
45 kph, range of 70 km, at 6000 euros.
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/citroen-says-ami-ev-w...
In the US, perhaps. In Europe you see quite a few cars that size.
It'd be a great commuter car. Cheap to buy, cheap to "gas" up, cheap to maintain. You're usually only commuting with yourself anyhow. If I still had a commute (and they sold these in the US) I'd definitely buy one.
It gets you from A to B, it keeps you dry and warm/cool, it's cheap and it's easy to park. It's basically everything you want from a car in a European city.
[deleted]
It is getting harder and harder to find consumer electronic products that don't regularly phone home to their manufacturers for marching orders. When I buy X, I expect X to function as it does for the life of the product. I don't want the manufacturer to suddenly decide to change the UI because one of their designers wants to put something in their portfolio. I don't want the manufacturer to suddenly decide to take away a feature because they just made a business agreement with some other company to do so. I don't want the manufacturer to collect usage analytics and use me in their A/B test experiments. I don't want to have to have an account on the manufacturer's cloud service. In fact, I don't want to have any kind of "relationship" with that company beyond the fact that I walked into a store and purchased a product with their name on it. I just want a product--I don't want the manufacturer to be an ongoing part of my life!
Dacia Spring electric at 8000Euros https://www.dacia.ro/gama-dacia/spring.html
There is info that shows phone Li-Po batteries last much longer if they are always kept at 20-80% charge at least, and that both the default charging settings and the marketing materials advertising battery capacity are biased towards bigger numbers.
I'm not sure what is the issue here, then, beyond bad communication, especially if only the older battery packs are affected. It is to be expected that if the customer wants to keep using the pack for a while longer, they need to limit how much they cycle the battery every charge.
A better solution would be to advertise the average longevity of the Tesla battery packs along with their mileage, but I'm not sure if their target audience really cares about that.
Toyota is working on perfecting an ICE that burns hydrogen.
Hey, why not have other solutions.
"https://www.autoweek.com/racing/more-racing/a36209405/toyota..."
Hey, why not have other solutions.
"https://www.autoweek.com/racing/more-racing/a36209405/toyota..."
[deleted]
Was Tesla actually found guilty of something? The article suggests they never responded to the lawsuit and therefore a default judgment was applied:
> According to Norway’s Nettavisen, Tesla didn’t respond to the lawsuit and the 30 owners behind the case were automatically awarded 136,000 kroner (~$16,000 USD) each in compensation unless Tesla appeals to the case, which it has a few weeks to do.
The award amount comes to half a million dollars total. Might be cheaper to just write checks to the 30 people than to tie up corporate lawyers and possibly set a precedent of admission that could trigger other lawsuits.
> According to Norway’s Nettavisen, Tesla didn’t respond to the lawsuit and the 30 owners behind the case were automatically awarded 136,000 kroner (~$16,000 USD) each in compensation unless Tesla appeals to the case, which it has a few weeks to do.
The award amount comes to half a million dollars total. Might be cheaper to just write checks to the 30 people than to tie up corporate lawyers and possibly set a precedent of admission that could trigger other lawsuits.
There could be over 10,000 Tesla owners affected by the update in Norway alone
I think you have misunderstood the potential consequences.
I think you have misunderstood the potential consequences.
The article specifically says that only 30 owners were involved in the lawsuit and awarded damages.
The speculation about 100,000 more owners getting involved is editorialization from this blog, although I suppose some of them will be incentivized to do follow-on suits now that the award value is so high.
The speculation about 100,000 more owners getting involved is editorialization from this blog, although I suppose some of them will be incentivized to do follow-on suits now that the award value is so high.
It may not be necessary for each individual to file suit or to join a class action lawsuit. It is called a fine in the article. Maybe the blog knows more than we do about the status of that.
A fine is a criminal sanction and this is apparently a civil case which means they were awarded compensation (and not a fine). Precedent is only set by the supreme court and in principle only in matters regarding interpretation of law. In this case, anyone else wanting money would have to file their own law suit. However, the case is not finally decided since Tesla may still respond.
[deleted]
> Tesla didn’t respond to the lawsuit and the 30 owners behind the case were automatically awarded 136,000 kroner (~$16,000 USD) each in compensation unless Tesla appeals to the case, which it has a few weeks to do.
So that's half a million dollars. One wonders if it was incompetence on Tesla's part, or calculated "well, it will cost that in lawyers fees to settle." Dunno. Leaving it unchallenged in court is a terrible look.
So that's half a million dollars. One wonders if it was incompetence on Tesla's part, or calculated "well, it will cost that in lawyers fees to settle." Dunno. Leaving it unchallenged in court is a terrible look.
[deleted]
Or they are straight up guilty and want to avoid any more publicity from skeletons which would turn up in discovery.
Guilty of what though? The interesting question is not ‘did they change charging speed’, it’s whether their motives were good & whether doing so is OK.
I imagine charging speed could influence battery life, likewise if done at charging stations be beneficial to everyone charging at same time?
Who knows. They could just have missed a letter from the court.
>This created a lot of confusion among the owners affected by the update who wanted more details about the sudden need to “protect” the battery pack.
They would surely complain if Tesla didn't include any "protections" while charging battery (80% capacity by default, slower charge when capacity approaching full, managing battery temperature, etc.)
But can someone explain why some update for charging protections affect mileage? I can understand if they compare capacity per constant time charged and telling us that after x hour charge I could do x miles, but now x-y... but if trying to charge full...? Maybe Tesla just reserves some capacity for longer lifespan of batteries?
They would surely complain if Tesla didn't include any "protections" while charging battery (80% capacity by default, slower charge when capacity approaching full, managing battery temperature, etc.)
But can someone explain why some update for charging protections affect mileage? I can understand if they compare capacity per constant time charged and telling us that after x hour charge I could do x miles, but now x-y... but if trying to charge full...? Maybe Tesla just reserves some capacity for longer lifespan of batteries?
It's very common to avoid discharging the batteries fully as it has a disproportionate affect on the life of the battery. So this update likely not only changed the rate at which the battery charged to protect it but also raised the minimum charge of the battery needed to drive - thus reducing the range.
The last part is one thing that occurred to me. I rented a Model X recently via Turo and struggled for an entire day with the car operating at <20 miles of indicated range (due to the long trip to pick it up + no local charging options above 7kW).
At the time I wondered if there was 'reserve' range and turns out there is at least one mile left. But it's clear this isn't the healthiest range to run the battery in.
It's possible they bumped the minimum charge a bit just to urge people to not dip so deeply into the well as often.
At the time I wondered if there was 'reserve' range and turns out there is at least one mile left. But it's clear this isn't the healthiest range to run the battery in.
It's possible they bumped the minimum charge a bit just to urge people to not dip so deeply into the well as often.
It's a default judgment, so it doesn't mean much.
It does seem like Tesla realized that the current fast charging + 100% utilization was going to be negative to customer experience quickly (battery degradation) and adapted their charging speed+spare, but they provided no information or guidance to users.
This sounds the same as the Apple situation. In both cases, simply providing appropriate information for users would likely have resolved the whole issue. But they did it quietly and let it be a surprise.
It does seem like Tesla realized that the current fast charging + 100% utilization was going to be negative to customer experience quickly (battery degradation) and adapted their charging speed+spare, but they provided no information or guidance to users.
This sounds the same as the Apple situation. In both cases, simply providing appropriate information for users would likely have resolved the whole issue. But they did it quietly and let it be a surprise.
> They would surely complain if Tesla didn't include any "protections" while charging battery
Every li-ion battery needs protection, but there's a world of difference between a performance reduction present before sale and one added after sale.
If you pay for a Porsche Boxster, they can't remotely reduce the performance to that of a Toyota Prius, no matter how good that may be for the longevity, safety and emissions.
Every li-ion battery needs protection, but there's a world of difference between a performance reduction present before sale and one added after sale.
If you pay for a Porsche Boxster, they can't remotely reduce the performance to that of a Toyota Prius, no matter how good that may be for the longevity, safety and emissions.
There's a pretty detailed breakdown available on some of the issues with packs from the affected models and years: https://skie.net/skynet/projects/tesla/view_post/23_Explaini...
Basically there are issues with the BMS that could cause an issue at higher states of charge. They shipped firmware to limit the charge until they could sort out the cause and potentially fix it with software. And it sounds like that part is resolved in many cases.
It looks like the charging issues are different, and he didn't go into those. Anecdotally, I've been hearing a lot of reports of that getting fixed too, though.
Basically there are issues with the BMS that could cause an issue at higher states of charge. They shipped firmware to limit the charge until they could sort out the cause and potentially fix it with software. And it sounds like that part is resolved in many cases.
It looks like the charging issues are different, and he didn't go into those. Anecdotally, I've been hearing a lot of reports of that getting fixed too, though.
The writeup is brilliant, and the engineers have certainly done heroics to find a software fix for an issue that should warranted a recall.
But that doesn't exonerate Tesla in any way. Tens of thousands of customers got cars gimped with no official explanation from Tesla. It's been close to two years - that's a significant part of the vehicle's lifetime. Tesla still hasn't admitted any issues and still hasn't compensated the owners - absolute radio silence from them. It's abhorrent
But that doesn't exonerate Tesla in any way. Tens of thousands of customers got cars gimped with no official explanation from Tesla. It's been close to two years - that's a significant part of the vehicle's lifetime. Tesla still hasn't admitted any issues and still hasn't compensated the owners - absolute radio silence from them. It's abhorrent
People seem to expect their batteries to work forever at their original capacity.
You’re right - they do expect that. Regardless of the availability of information, and I agree there is a wealth of it available, companies should work a little harder on explaining this. It’s a new problem for most people.
When the batteries in a remote control, clock, or even a car go bad then it’s trivial to change them. So while this problem has existed for as long as battery powered devices have the difference is that no one noticed. Now you can’t change the battery yourself. So it becomes a much bigger burden to understand “oh, the max ability of my battery to charge has degraded.” It’s just a new piece of knowledge for lots of people.
When the batteries in a remote control, clock, or even a car go bad then it’s trivial to change them. So while this problem has existed for as long as battery powered devices have the difference is that no one noticed. Now you can’t change the battery yourself. So it becomes a much bigger burden to understand “oh, the max ability of my battery to charge has degraded.” It’s just a new piece of knowledge for lots of people.
I think the confusion may lie in the fact that gas powered vehicles do not have the same concern. Sure maintenance is required and all but you don't have the major drop in range just because the manufacturer pushes an update to "protect" your car. People expect their vehicles to work forever at original capacity.
Well bad news for all gas powered car owners: performance and mileage will degrade over time. Maybe not by a software update (unless you own a specific diesel car) but they will definitely degrade and quite significantly as well.
Edit: do note this applies to older cars, it's a bit slower than EVs but 10year old cars will not have the same mileage and power as a new one even with the same specifications.
Edit: do note this applies to older cars, it's a bit slower than EVs but 10year old cars will not have the same mileage and power as a new one even with the same specifications.
Lime, actually ? Any data confirming that, and any explanation of such a behaviour, if true ? Like, one if my cars has around 300kw engine (400hp). How much I should lose in 10 years, if your claim is true ? And where are the losses ? I can't imagine anything besides loss of compression in cylinders, but that's tiny
Loss of compression comes from material breakdown, the other big one is from dirt build up. Dirt in the injectors causes bad spray pattern. Dirt in the cooling system reduces heat rejection. Dirt in the lube system increases friction losses. Dirt in the intake and exhaust causes pumping losses.
The amount of dirt a car is exposed to varies by 2-3 orders of magnitude between a farm truck compared to a sports car.
Rarely will you see an old sports car lose more than 20% power. Farm trucks lose 50%+, and the farmers keep running them until they just don't move at all.
*Side note, dirt does sometimes help. As a teen, I had an old ford festiva I shared with my brother. One day we washed the filthy engine bay and after that the thing would not idle. Turns out the dirty grease was plugging a vacuum leak around the pivot on the throttle valve.
The amount of dirt a car is exposed to varies by 2-3 orders of magnitude between a farm truck compared to a sports car.
Rarely will you see an old sports car lose more than 20% power. Farm trucks lose 50%+, and the farmers keep running them until they just don't move at all.
*Side note, dirt does sometimes help. As a teen, I had an old ford festiva I shared with my brother. One day we washed the filthy engine bay and after that the thing would not idle. Turns out the dirty grease was plugging a vacuum leak around the pivot on the throttle valve.
> Well bad news for all gas powered car owners: performance and mileage will degrade over time. Maybe not by a software update (unless you own a specific diesel car) but they will definitely degrade and quite significantly as well.
This is not true, especially the part about "significantly".
The only real mechanism for a loss of performance over time would be if the engine's compression starts to drop as the rings get worn, but this isn't an issue on any modern engine.
Take a car with 10k miles and run it on a dyno. Dyno the same car again at 150k miles and it will probably be within 5%. In fact, performance may even go up as the motor "loosens" up.
This has been my experience.
This is not true, especially the part about "significantly".
The only real mechanism for a loss of performance over time would be if the engine's compression starts to drop as the rings get worn, but this isn't an issue on any modern engine.
Take a car with 10k miles and run it on a dyno. Dyno the same car again at 150k miles and it will probably be within 5%. In fact, performance may even go up as the motor "loosens" up.
This has been my experience.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Have you seen the graph in the article? It's clear that the drop has nothing to do with "natural" degradation.
True, but I would expect the charge level and charge rate to fluctuate as the OEM refines its software over the years.
Throttling and limiting capacity in exchange for increase durability are inherent to the lithium battery charging process. It seems perfectly reasonable that as field data comes in the OEM would refine the tune.
This is like the EV equivalent of a service bulletin that flashes a new ECU image that actuates some emissions doodad slightly differently to improve longevity or whatever but costs you a fraction of an MPG of a couple horsepower at part throttle.
Yes the messaging to consumers was clearly insufficient but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong here and I'm generally no fan of Tesla.
Throttling and limiting capacity in exchange for increase durability are inherent to the lithium battery charging process. It seems perfectly reasonable that as field data comes in the OEM would refine the tune.
This is like the EV equivalent of a service bulletin that flashes a new ECU image that actuates some emissions doodad slightly differently to improve longevity or whatever but costs you a fraction of an MPG of a couple horsepower at part throttle.
Yes the messaging to consumers was clearly insufficient but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong here and I'm generally no fan of Tesla.
But that assumes the original graph was accurate for a start.
Apple slowed down your phone because the battery probably couldn't provide enough power to keep it running at its original speed.
But all they need to do is say: do you want us to slow down your device/restrict its battery someway, or run it over spec and it'll be worse in the long term? And let the user pick.
But then they'd be 1000 articles about how batteries are terrible and so are the companies who use them, because terrible journalism
Apple slowed down your phone because the battery probably couldn't provide enough power to keep it running at its original speed.
But all they need to do is say: do you want us to slow down your device/restrict its battery someway, or run it over spec and it'll be worse in the long term? And let the user pick.
But then they'd be 1000 articles about how batteries are terrible and so are the companies who use them, because terrible journalism
I find it reasonable that given the warranty claims, they should be contractually obligated to provide you with the terms they have agreed upon. If they find out with new research and data that given the usage the battery will not last as long as they claimed, then a warranty claim would fall fairly under that use case. Updating the software to to degrade performance/range as an attempt to meet original warranty guidelines feels very much like misleading and unfair practices. Imagine if any appliance you owned did the same thing.
> Sorry you can't keep AC at the temperature you want because doing so will reduce the longevity of this appliance and we can't guarantee it will meet under warranty.
You would find this scenario absolutely unacceptable
> Sorry you can't keep AC at the temperature you want because doing so will reduce the longevity of this appliance and we can't guarantee it will meet under warranty.
You would find this scenario absolutely unacceptable
They expect that because it is sold to them this way. Just as FSD is being sold and people are actually expecting their cars to drive themselves without intervention.
How long would be a reasonable expectation?
EVs in general have ridiculous warranty on range/battery capacity.
Consider you have bought 250mile range EV. Most manufacturers will say that there's nothing wrong if your range degrades by up to 30%, down to 175mile range.
Consider you have bought 250mile range EV. Most manufacturers will say that there's nothing wrong if your range degrades by up to 30%, down to 175mile range.
And there is no consumer visible guage for degradation either. The manufacturer uses their own, inaccessible, approach to validation. This could become a real problem in the future.
There was no technical way for them to guarantee otherwise, at the time.
This is quickly changing as we comment.
This is quickly changing as we comment.
This one reminds me of the Apple “battery-gate” issue. I’m not going to pick sides or anything but I agree that both Apple and Tesla should have been considerably more clear in their messaging to customers.
Every electric car manufacturer (phone/laptop/whatever else) is guilty of throttling charging speed, always. Is this a joke? Was expert witness not questioned, if the judge missed high school physics? The reputation of Norway just went under 0 in my mind.
Edit in response to the point about Tesla not answering:
That's UK/US legal tradition - but Norway claims (apparently isn't) to be a "rechtstaat"[0]. That means that [the court is legally bound to justice in any case, and that Tesla has constitutional right for justice - best effort must be made even if it didn't respond. This has arisen because many European states of the past abused courts in absence for monetary or political gains, just like this case.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat
Edit in response to the point about Tesla having to defend itself:
Sure. But they absolutely shouldn't have automatically lost. The judge must consider all available information about the case and make a fair judgement.
Here it's a case of basic technological principle - all battery packs are throttled, or the battery wouldn't survive a week; that throttling is adaptive to battery health, battery temperature, surrounding conditions, stability of incoming electricity and so on. Tesla doesn't have to supply this information, all that is basic highschool physics (at least in Europe).
// The problem with Apple was about throttling CPU and thus making the device slower in order to make time on battery consistent. This is totally different, and absolutely necessary.
Edit in response to the point about Tesla not answering:
That's UK/US legal tradition - but Norway claims (apparently isn't) to be a "rechtstaat"[0]. That means that [the court is legally bound to justice in any case, and that Tesla has constitutional right for justice - best effort must be made even if it didn't respond. This has arisen because many European states of the past abused courts in absence for monetary or political gains, just like this case.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsstaat
Edit in response to the point about Tesla having to defend itself:
Sure. But they absolutely shouldn't have automatically lost. The judge must consider all available information about the case and make a fair judgement.
Here it's a case of basic technological principle - all battery packs are throttled, or the battery wouldn't survive a week; that throttling is adaptive to battery health, battery temperature, surrounding conditions, stability of incoming electricity and so on. Tesla doesn't have to supply this information, all that is basic highschool physics (at least in Europe).
// The problem with Apple was about throttling CPU and thus making the device slower in order to make time on battery consistent. This is totally different, and absolutely necessary.
It's up to Tesla to defend themselves. If they rather play dead than respond to the suit, they will lose by default. The judge isn't supposed to do the work for them.
I had a similar drop in battery myself. It used be 254 and in a few weeks it dropped to 220. At that time they also changed the representation to show theoretical miles instead of raw miles as the default. So they used some algorithm to show higher range somehow. I didn’t use that representation and instead got the shock of my life when I saw the drop. Tesla support said there is nothing wrong with the battery. I would be really interested in knowing more about this case and what exactly happened.
Was there any up-front communication when this happened? "In order to keep your car's batteries safe, and ensure they have a long life, we're reducing the range a bit". And maybe throw in some free supercharging.
Just assuming the surprise made it worse.
Just assuming the surprise made it worse.
Have you been able to determine if the actual range of the vehicle has changed at all? That's not clear to me from the article. I rented a Model X for a day and got about 60% of the estimated range (presumably due to my driving). After this update it would have only been 30% wrong instead of 40%. Not sure what to make of that.
This sounds like a very similar scenario as when Apple throttled iPhones, and also annoyed a lot of people
Proprietary software strikes again.
It shouldn't be radical to say that you should control the software that runs on physical devices like cars you own.
It shouldn't be radical to say that you should control the software that runs on physical devices like cars you own.
Is it tho? Battery degradation is a big problem. if your supper charging and doing 0-60 launches often your battery is going to go to shit.
People should be able to control the ratio of battery degradation to charging time.
Anyone or their business who depended on the old charging speed for mission-critical functions is screwed.
Anyone or their business who depended on the old charging speed for mission-critical functions is screwed.
But there are more-clear warranty rules about battery degradation/lifetime. They optimized for those.
No car currently has that and there’s no way government safety bodies would just let anyone install whatever they like on their car.
You obviously do not live in the USA...
I have a Chevy Volt, and there is a recall for them where the range is reduced slightly to protect the battery. It’s partially a longevity issue and partially a safety issue.
Tesla just did the same thing with updates.
(Comments here seem to not understand this context...)
Tesla just did the same thing with updates.
(Comments here seem to not understand this context...)
Yes, but a primary marketing metric for these vehicles is range. So you if you sold me a vehicle with range X, but it turns out the range is 0.9X, then it's quite right for the buyer to expect some sort of "make good" and the producer to expect the government to force one upon them.
It gets even trickier if it can be shown that the producer was aware that such reductions in range would be quite likely to occur in the near future. When likely transitions to certainty, then it's fraud.
It gets even trickier if it can be shown that the producer was aware that such reductions in range would be quite likely to occur in the near future. When likely transitions to certainty, then it's fraud.
Similar to VW reducing the MPG of vehicles after dieselgate.
But I’m not given any compensation from Chevy. The range reduction is small, within the warranty (like with Tesla). I wish I had the ability to fix it via software updates instead of having to bring it to a dealer.
Tesla has actually INCREASED both range and charge speed via software updates, as well.
And there’s no reason to suspect Tesla or Chevy knew for a fact they’d need to do this. People throw “fraud” around way too easily. Usually, when people do that, it makes me think they’re likely perma-skeptics.
Tesla has actually INCREASED both range and charge speed via software updates, as well.
And there’s no reason to suspect Tesla or Chevy knew for a fact they’d need to do this. People throw “fraud” around way too easily. Usually, when people do that, it makes me think they’re likely perma-skeptics.
> The range reduction is small, within the warranty (like with Tesla).
Very much like self-driving. The marketing people (Elon) say it's self-driving. The legal people say it's driver assist.
Very much like self-driving. The marketing people (Elon) say it's self-driving. The legal people say it's driver assist.
There is an element about convenience here that comes out when we talk about charging (rather than longevity of battery).
People are used to ICE cars where you can fill up rather quickly. Fuel pumps put out fuel at different speeds. It's not the same flow rate everywhere and people have no problem with it. Even big tanks on non-commercial vehicles are filled up in minutes.
Refueling an ICE tank is quick and convenient. Electric has not hit that point and comparisons are going to happen. Even if not explicitly.
People are used to ICE cars where you can fill up rather quickly. Fuel pumps put out fuel at different speeds. It's not the same flow rate everywhere and people have no problem with it. Even big tanks on non-commercial vehicles are filled up in minutes.
Refueling an ICE tank is quick and convenient. Electric has not hit that point and comparisons are going to happen. Even if not explicitly.
Yes this is my biggest issue with electric vehicles. Charging it overnight to use for day trips is one thing but taking it on a cross country trip or long vacation? No thanks. My time is finite and I do not want to spend it waiting around for my EV to charge.
I agree with you but I have a friend who tends to look on the bright side of things. He bought a Tesla even though he doesn't have a garage to charge it in, meaning he has to take to the local station once in a while and drink a coffee.
He also drives from SF to LA about once a month and said it takes 3 stops (so +3 hours?) but the way he put it is "now I arrive much more refreshed because I took breaks on the long drive"
He also drives from SF to LA about once a month and said it takes 3 stops (so +3 hours?) but the way he put it is "now I arrive much more refreshed because I took breaks on the long drive"
>He also drives from SF to LA about once a month and said it takes 3 stops (so +3 hours?) but the way he put it is "now I arrive much more refreshed because I took breaks on the long drive"
I would agree with his sentiment if I had unlimited vacation time but since I don't, I want to arrive at my destination quickly. I suppose you could set it up to give you the option to stop in interesting places while you charge. Either way you're getting less options when you choose to take an EV on a trip currently, which is why I'll still pass on traveling that way for now.
I would agree with his sentiment if I had unlimited vacation time but since I don't, I want to arrive at my destination quickly. I suppose you could set it up to give you the option to stop in interesting places while you charge. Either way you're getting less options when you choose to take an EV on a trip currently, which is why I'll still pass on traveling that way for now.
It only takes ~20mins to charge a Tesla from 10% to 85% at a SuperCharger station. For 3 stops, he likely only added ~45 mins. If you round up and add time getting on/off the highway, plugging in and unplugging, he maybe added an hour to the overall trip. Newer Superchargers (v3) are higher power and reduce the charge time further.
You need to add in the detours you'll need to make to find superchargers and 20 minutes is still much longer than you need to fill a gas tank.
Additionally, you're going to be charging more often than you'll be filling the tank in a similar sized vehicle.
If you're towing anything then EV is just out the window because they're not capable of towing anything for a long enough distance to be practical.
Really EV's only seem practical if you want to be environmentally friendly imo and even then there are more eco friendly ways to commute. I bike to work often so I feel like I offset my emissions just as much as anyone who's commuting with an EV.
Additionally, you're going to be charging more often than you'll be filling the tank in a similar sized vehicle.
If you're towing anything then EV is just out the window because they're not capable of towing anything for a long enough distance to be practical.
Really EV's only seem practical if you want to be environmentally friendly imo and even then there are more eco friendly ways to commute. I bike to work often so I feel like I offset my emissions just as much as anyone who's commuting with an EV.
It’s wonderful that this works well for your friend.
Let’s consider the other end of the spectrum. What about the home of a single mom who needs to get kids off to school, get to work, run errands, and doesn’t have enough time. Also, lives in an apartment. How would this work for her?
Let’s consider the other end of the spectrum. What about the home of a single mom who needs to get kids off to school, get to work, run errands, and doesn’t have enough time. Also, lives in an apartment. How would this work for her?
She would need to visit a local Supercharger station 1-2 times a week (maybe 3, depending on far the errands are), for about 20 minutes each visit.
There are people who do this with Teslas. It's of course not the most convenient charging arrangement, but it certainly can be workable (and is for a good number of current Tesla owners).
Also, more apartment complexes are adding EV chargers as amenities to attract EV owners. Hopefully charging at an apartment will be less of an issue in the future as these are added.
There are people who do this with Teslas. It's of course not the most convenient charging arrangement, but it certainly can be workable (and is for a good number of current Tesla owners).
Also, more apartment complexes are adding EV chargers as amenities to attract EV owners. Hopefully charging at an apartment will be less of an issue in the future as these are added.
In my city, grocery store parking lots seem to be the first places putting in public-use chargers.
How feasible is it that people would (say, 20 years out) expect car charges in their homes by default? In my case I very rarely drive >100 miles without being home, so having a home charger would actually be _more_ convenient. I expect that is similar for most people.
It also makes me think of a world where your home car is electric, and you rent an ICE for long distance travel. Or where we have real public transit between cities and you rent an electric at your destination. Lots of interesting options that seem feasible on the surface. There will always be a subset that would be better off with ICE though I am sure.
It also makes me think of a world where your home car is electric, and you rent an ICE for long distance travel. Or where we have real public transit between cities and you rent an electric at your destination. Lots of interesting options that seem feasible on the surface. There will always be a subset that would be better off with ICE though I am sure.
It's certainly feasible, and it's not going to take 20 years either. Right now anyone with an EV will charge overnight at home if at all possible, because the it's incredibly convenient. It's easy enough for those who own detached houses or townhouses to install a higher capacity charging point, but it can be more painful for those renting or in apartments.
I don't think it'll take too much EV penetration for houses and apartment buildings that are set up for charging to command a premium.
I don't think it'll take too much EV penetration for houses and apartment buildings that are set up for charging to command a premium.
I expect in 20 years we'll have batteries that charge almost instantly or in no more than 5 minutes.
This brings up an interesting angle to think about.
In 20 years what do the old cars on the road look like? Are they all gone? Gone often means in dumps. Where the batteries are toxic to the environment.
If we want to think for the environment should we plan around longevity?
In 20 years what do the old cars on the road look like? Are they all gone? Gone often means in dumps. Where the batteries are toxic to the environment.
If we want to think for the environment should we plan around longevity?
For me, that would be fine. But, how is that going to work for people in apartments, jobs that commute a lot (e.g. delivery drivers), people traveling, etc? There are a lot of situations like this. What’s their experience going to be like?
Pay chargers at every parking spot for the complex.
For the landlords it will be a revenue stream. (In leases to the company which runs the chargers)
For the landlords it will be a revenue stream. (In leases to the company which runs the chargers)
I wonder what the logistics to install something like that would be? Say there are 500 spots. How much wiring is needed, what kind of hook up to the grid is needed, how do you run all those cables in existing garage, and how much weight is added to the structure?
Will landlords make the money or an outside vendor who does this?
So many questions to ask and so many rabbit holes to go down. Just to look at of this is possible and how it could work
Will landlords make the money or an outside vendor who does this?
So many questions to ask and so many rabbit holes to go down. Just to look at of this is possible and how it could work
The grid connection isn't that high, because the average person (in the US) drives 50km a day. At 200Wh/km efficiency (this is a generous estimate) that's 10kWh/day per driver. Assuming charging of all these cars is concentrated across 8 hours (10pm to 6am), 2kW per driver is more than sufficient. What's needed is EVSEs (charging connectors) that intelligently communicate to share the grid connection (this already exists).
I think that chargers will be default in homes.
The idea of a gas station likely will just fade away. We have fuel stations because the infrastructure to deliver gasoline to everybody’s home is unrealistically complicated.
But the delivery infrastructure for electricity is largely already there. You just need to install the equivalent of a “pump”.
(Coincidentally there are some guys at my house installing one of those “pumps” today!)
The idea of a gas station likely will just fade away. We have fuel stations because the infrastructure to deliver gasoline to everybody’s home is unrealistically complicated.
But the delivery infrastructure for electricity is largely already there. You just need to install the equivalent of a “pump”.
(Coincidentally there are some guys at my house installing one of those “pumps” today!)
Why it's a surprise? They do all sort of things like below
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/10/16283330/tesla-hurricane-...