Microsoft executive says U.S. overuses secret orders for Americans' data(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Microsoft executive says U.S. overuses secret orders for Americans' data
https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-surveillance-microsoft-idCNL2N2OB2SV
45 comments
Dupe (203 points, 52 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27693929
If even Microsoft says that, government really seem to be afraid of their constituency by now. Deservedly so in my opinion.
>”government really seem to be afraid of their constituency by now.”
Call me a cynic, but I just don’t see things changing. The US government didn’t see a big change after the Snowden leaks and those were dramatically more revealing than this statement is. Sadly, Congress has a really high incumbency/re-election rate and most Americans just can’t bring themselves to vote for the other party. Congress usually has a single digit to to teen approval rating yet they continue to act the same way.
Call me a cynic, but I just don’t see things changing. The US government didn’t see a big change after the Snowden leaks and those were dramatically more revealing than this statement is. Sadly, Congress has a really high incumbency/re-election rate and most Americans just can’t bring themselves to vote for the other party. Congress usually has a single digit to to teen approval rating yet they continue to act the same way.
> Congress usually has a single digit to to teen approval rating yet they continue to act the same way.
They don't need to worry because they've successfully redirected citizen rage against each other instead of towards them. Classic divide and conquer.
They don't need to worry because they've successfully redirected citizen rage against each other instead of towards them. Classic divide and conquer.
I feel you. If it brings you solace, other governments are as old, angry and afraid as yours.
Agreed. The only thing I see changing is certain user behavior (e.g. thinking twice about searching on certain topics and/or using certain search engines etc.)
Afraid how? MS is complaining, but not effectively resisting.
I think the commenter is saying that the Gov is afraid so they spy. And that MS’s comment helps us see that. (Rather than the Gov is afraid because MS is speaking out. )
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MS should be concerned, because eventually people will stop trusting their products and switch over to alternatives.
The erosion of civil liberties under COVID rules is extremely concerning.
Canada is about to pass draconian laws for the purpose of monitoring and restrict Canadian's online free speech rights and jail people for 2 years, and pay 70k fine for things like saying the N word online.
Canada is about to pass draconian laws for the purpose of monitoring and restrict Canadian's online free speech rights and jail people for 2 years, and pay 70k fine for things like saying the N word online.
COVID has almost nothing to do with the erosion of civil liberties in the US. That ship sailed to much applause after 9/11 and neither party has done anything to remove the powers they have. Trying to rewrite this as some sort of COVID thing is silly.
The erosion of liberties in the US started before 2020 AND it got a LOT worse under COVID. Both is true. And there's nothing silly about what's happening in Canada right now.
> The erosion of liberties in the US started before 2020 AND it got a LOT worse under COVID. Both is true.
Not really. The contentious part in your claim is the "a LOT". You need to prove that it got worse under COVID in degree even remotely comparable to how it got worse after 9/11.
Not really. The contentious part in your claim is the "a LOT". You need to prove that it got worse under COVID in degree even remotely comparable to how it got worse after 9/11.
In Canada, the government suspended elections, locked up an opposition leader, and locked seniors in retirement homes with stupid high mortality rate. Restricted right to travel, to visit family, and now passed laws against free speech directly aimed at its critics.
Also 9 churches have been burned in the last month alone. In the US riots something like 60 people died, and countless businesses and livelihoods were destroyed.
I would say its a LOT.
Also 9 churches have been burned in the last month alone. In the US riots something like 60 people died, and countless businesses and livelihoods were destroyed.
I would say its a LOT.
It seems to me that more "bush did it" 9/11 conspiracy videos were allowed to stay up, than COVID-19 vaccine critical or alternate treatment discussing videos.
And I think I understand why, it's because we worry less about the stuff that we think few other people believe, and more about things that we think lots of other people will believe and act on. Flat-earthers were firmly in the "who cares" category for a long time (and probably still are but I'm less sure these days).
But it's unfortunate that the COVID-19 related content is now setting the precedent for what kind of speech should be scrubbed from all popular platforms and hosts, with what kind of government guidance and public pressure.
And I think I understand why, it's because we worry less about the stuff that we think few other people believe, and more about things that we think lots of other people will believe and act on. Flat-earthers were firmly in the "who cares" category for a long time (and probably still are but I'm less sure these days).
But it's unfortunate that the COVID-19 related content is now setting the precedent for what kind of speech should be scrubbed from all popular platforms and hosts, with what kind of government guidance and public pressure.
As a result of COVID-19, Americans were forced to wear underwear on their faces, close down businesses until bankrupt, and were restricted from places of worship. Additionally, the end of COVID introduced a new class system of who is vaccinated and can have full roaming rights.
I sincerely doubt this and can’t envision a world moving away from Microsoft and it’s back comparability with legacy software. Not to mention the Business world and academics world dependence on Microsoft’s Business Suite (and no Google Sheets only advantage over excel is collaboration. Excel beats it every other metric and no one is moving sensitive documents from Excel over to Sheets.)
Also take into account that the common person who works on Windows at work might also work at windows at home.
And then there is gaming.
Microsoft is not going away anytime soon. Especially with Apple’s move towards dropping 32-bit and the general consumers not adopting Linux anytime soon.
Also take into account that the common person who works on Windows at work might also work at windows at home.
And then there is gaming.
Microsoft is not going away anytime soon. Especially with Apple’s move towards dropping 32-bit and the general consumers not adopting Linux anytime soon.
On the gaming front since Steam released Proton the future is now uncertain for Microsoft hegemony. Linux can now run AAA titles on launch, with the only significant barrier that's left being kernel-level anti-cheats.
But with WINE's rapid development, cloud gaming becoming more popular (just yesterday for instance Xbox Cloud Gaming became available for Linux browsers) and VFIO becoming easier I don't expect this to be an issue still in the next few years.
But with WINE's rapid development, cloud gaming becoming more popular (just yesterday for instance Xbox Cloud Gaming became available for Linux browsers) and VFIO becoming easier I don't expect this to be an issue still in the next few years.
I still doubting that regular consumers will go out of their way to buy Linux Ready Laptops/Gaming PCs (and no they’re not installing Linux on their computers) I think HN in general severely overestimates how willing to normal consumer is to use Linux over Windows and how much utility Windows has.
This specific issue has been there for years, long before covid. So not sure why you're jumping on covid being the cause here. The erosion of civil liberties specific to covid are mostly temporary emergency powers, which again aren't even at play here.
Also this Microsoft press release has a lot more information in it than the Rueters article https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/06/30/the-nee... "We have reviewed the number of secrecy orders that federal law enforcement agencies have presented to us from 2016 to the present, a period that spans the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations. We found that while the number has increased some, federal law enforcement has consistently presented us with 2,400 to 3,500 secrecy orders each year, or 7-10 per day, representing one-quarter to one-third of all the legal demands we received. These are just the demands that Microsoft, just one cloud service provider, received. "
Also this Microsoft press release has a lot more information in it than the Rueters article https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2021/06/30/the-nee... "We have reviewed the number of secrecy orders that federal law enforcement agencies have presented to us from 2016 to the present, a period that spans the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations. We found that while the number has increased some, federal law enforcement has consistently presented us with 2,400 to 3,500 secrecy orders each year, or 7-10 per day, representing one-quarter to one-third of all the legal demands we received. These are just the demands that Microsoft, just one cloud service provider, received. "
I mean I can remember having this exact discussion about MS on Slashdot 20 years ago.
If anything MS and Bill Gates have a vastly better public image than 20 years ago. Bill Gates has gone from the public image of a lucky fool with blue screening on national TV more than once to some kind of public intellectual that the public wants to follow.
I have read about what Canada is about to do and it does seem completely insane.
If anything MS and Bill Gates have a vastly better public image than 20 years ago. Bill Gates has gone from the public image of a lucky fool with blue screening on national TV more than once to some kind of public intellectual that the public wants to follow.
I have read about what Canada is about to do and it does seem completely insane.
> Bill Gates has gone from the public image of a lucky fool with blue screening on national TV more than once to some kind of public intellectual that the public wants to follow.
That painstakingly constructed PR success has somewhat eroded recently.
That painstakingly constructed PR success has somewhat eroded recently.
> Bill Gates
It’s amazing what a PR budget can do over twenty years.
It’s amazing what a PR budget can do over twenty years.
Wow, I can't dehumanize black people online?! What even is the point of my gigabit fiber, then? Doesn't the government realize this will destroy 4chan? /s
You're abetting the destruction of free speech through while you battle strawmen.
Canada has had laws against hate speech before c-36, this extends those laws to the internet.
Canada does not have a concept of "free speech", the fuck are you talking about. Canada has a concept of freedom of expression, which has certain limits, such as Hate speech.
I'm so sorry you will no longer be able to call for a genocide against a group you hold prejudices against, boo fucking hoo.
Canada does not have a concept of "free speech", the fuck are you talking about. Canada has a concept of freedom of expression, which has certain limits, such as Hate speech.
I'm so sorry you will no longer be able to call for a genocide against a group you hold prejudices against, boo fucking hoo.
Laws against hate speech are fundamentally censorious. You approve of censorship when it happens to people you dislike. You're just unprincipled.
If homosexuals have their rights ignored in some far off country you must just shrug your shoulders, they don't have rights in those countries.
Tilting at windmills under the delusion they are giants does not make you a fighter of giants.
If homosexuals have their rights ignored in some far off country you must just shrug your shoulders, they don't have rights in those countries.
Tilting at windmills under the delusion they are giants does not make you a fighter of giants.
This should come as no surprise by now. Google, Apple, Microsoft and Amazon are all fairly familiar bedfellows with the NSA at this point, you should really only use their services to store data that you're comfortable having exposed.
As a Googler I feel offended by part of your comment. It's like calling inmates bedfellows of the prison system.
I think over the past decade, Google has proven that it is definitely on the “evil” side when it comes to data mining.
If you have problems with people naming Google together with the likes of Apple and Microsoft in terms of data sharing with the NSA, perhaps you should reconsider your choices regarding your employer.
To be clear, I’m quite neutral towards Google, but I don’t think you have any right to be offended by OP’s comment.
If you have problems with people naming Google together with the likes of Apple and Microsoft in terms of data sharing with the NSA, perhaps you should reconsider your choices regarding your employer.
To be clear, I’m quite neutral towards Google, but I don’t think you have any right to be offended by OP’s comment.
> It's like calling inmates bedfellows of the prison system
If the inmates built the prison and moonlit as prison guards, yes. The unfortunate truth is that Google has built the modern surveillance state’s technical apparatus.
Yes, they have at times pushed back. But many may not see that enough.
If the inmates built the prison and moonlit as prison guards, yes. The unfortunate truth is that Google has built the modern surveillance state’s technical apparatus.
Yes, they have at times pushed back. But many may not see that enough.
I suggest reading up on Google’s long-standing revolving door with the State Department, or their historic, ongoing collaboration with the NSA and other intelligence agencies.
They designed all their systems for commercial surveillance (to sell ads), knowing full well they would hand the data over to surveillance agencies.
They designed all their systems for commercial surveillance (to sell ads), knowing full well they would hand the data over to surveillance agencies.
I think Google is more like a partner in crime at this point. The NSA don't even have to put the legwork in anymore they just get the data off Google and it's easier because they don't have to work through the red tape.
I've always just assumed that they were an NSA front to begin with.
What would be better for them?
What would be better for them?
You mean that Google is a "partner" because it indexes OSINT?
Are you comparing you at will employment with Google to convicted felons who’ve had their right to freedom stripped of them by a jury of their peers or a guilty plea deal?
I think the poster's employment is just context. The "inmates" here are the tech companies being held hostage by the NSA.
But I'm not sure I really agree. At this point "bedfellows" seems like an apt description, given how feeble and ineffective their opposition (certainly publicly, anyway) to it seems to have been.
But I'm not sure I really agree. At this point "bedfellows" seems like an apt description, given how feeble and ineffective their opposition (certainly publicly, anyway) to it seems to have been.
Please don't violate site guidelines by posting "gotcha" comments that misinterpret other posters. Find a charitable interpretation.
It's a metaphor, following the example of "bedfellows", which doesn't mean they are literally in bed together.
Inmates and busineses alike are required to obey the government under threat of force.
It's a metaphor, following the example of "bedfellows", which doesn't mean they are literally in bed together.
Inmates and busineses alike are required to obey the government under threat of force.
You should be ashamed of this comment. You’re there by choice, unlike an inmate.
You chose to work somewhere that enables the government to spy on its citizens and you're the offended party? That's rich
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