Any startups following the philosophy of the book The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris?
45 comments
I read this book around 2 weeks, you need to take parts of it which make sense. For example, I think his "Low Information Diet" makes a lot of sense. (Essentially he says that, don't, don't partake any information, unless you need that to use it that day). Last week, I logged out of all IM, stopped coming to news.yc, and all social sites, and got done about twice of while I get done in a week. (But its hard, so here I am back on news.yc!)
I never managed that for more than about a week either. Glad to know I'm not the only one :)
I highly recommend the LeechBlock add-on for Firefox (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4476). You can tell it to only let you read X minutes of HN (or any other site) in a day, and then it will block you.
This add-on has really helped me get through my current project. In fact I had better finish typing this quickly before my HN/Slashdot/gmail limit runs out.
This add-on has really helped me get through my current project. In fact I had better finish typing this quickly before my HN/Slashdot/gmail limit runs out.
I use 8aweek.com for a similar benefit.
I agree with the low information diet, I also agree that it is difficult as ever to stick to it.
I found his book to be inspiring and extremely useful from a startup stand point and a "muse" stand point. He was just cover story for Mens Journal:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/08/19/4hww-cover-s...
I found his book to be inspiring and extremely useful from a startup stand point and a "muse" stand point. He was just cover story for Mens Journal:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/08/19/4hww-cover-s...
I took the initiative to forward this post to the author, Tim Ferriss. He provided me with the following quote:
"Hi Chris, thanks so much for the link. I won't jump into the fray here, but feel free to post this quote on the board. I'm a huge fan of Paul Graham and his blog is one of my top 10 when I speak to media. I also just attended the Y-Combinator demo day this week, where I met Paul. His philosophies and mine do not conflict, best I can tell. If anyone reads the book or even the latest Men's Journal profile, I always emphasize that inactivity ISN'T the goal. I work my ass off on things that are meaningful to me, but 1) they are not primarily financially-driven, and 2) I measure results vs. effort. I suspect Paul wouldn't have an issue with either of these. Keep up the good fight... -Tim"
"Hi Chris, thanks so much for the link. I won't jump into the fray here, but feel free to post this quote on the board. I'm a huge fan of Paul Graham and his blog is one of my top 10 when I speak to media. I also just attended the Y-Combinator demo day this week, where I met Paul. His philosophies and mine do not conflict, best I can tell. If anyone reads the book or even the latest Men's Journal profile, I always emphasize that inactivity ISN'T the goal. I work my ass off on things that are meaningful to me, but 1) they are not primarily financially-driven, and 2) I measure results vs. effort. I suspect Paul wouldn't have an issue with either of these. Keep up the good fight... -Tim"
I started the book but didn't finish. With that caveat, here's my take: Ferris's approach is great for side projects, but no so great for a main project. His ideal is not having to work hard, so he can travel the world and kickbox. Personally, my ideal is to build great things that people love, and have fun doing it. I want to work hard, not kickbox (though I think I could get used to a 4 day, not 4 hour, work week).
That said, the book made a lot of sense for side projects. I'd love to have a few sources of income trickling in that don't require much of my time. If nothing else, that would enable me to build the things I want during the rest of my time.
That said, the book made a lot of sense for side projects. I'd love to have a few sources of income trickling in that don't require much of my time. If nothing else, that would enable me to build the things I want during the rest of my time.
Actually, his ideal is not having to work hard at earning a living so that you have more time to do the things that you love, whatever that is. If you are doing what you love and earning a living off it anyway, then fair enough, but his book is probably aimed more at people who dream about escaping the rat race, but don't think that's possible.
Continuing on that vein, the outcome Ferris's model is different from Paul Graham's. The Paul Graham model involves the growing of wealth in terms of stock value, with an exit strategy of selling those shares to an outside company or possibly an IPO. The main goal is increasing shareholder value and building net worth.
Tim Ferris, on the other hand, is talking about a business asset that generates income with the least amount of personal time in its day-to-day operation. You don't want to sell the asset because it is generating cash into your pocket. Instead the exit strategy involves leaving it running -- exactly like setting up a headless server with background daemons, instead of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, and monitor and babysitting it 24/7.
There's also a big misunderstanding about "working less". If you actually read the book, the initial setup still requires patience and effort, particularly if you're coming from a regular 9-5 job background. The other "track" in the book are for people who already own a small business, but they are doing the mom-and-pop thing and need to be owners of the business, and not merely self-employed. These people essentially own their own jobs, often work significantly more hours than regular corporate jobs, and don't have the upside of startup since these people want to keep their small business. This idea, by the way, is not new, and has been written about by other authors, such as Michael E. Gerber in his book, E-Myth.
By the way, once you created one income-generating asset, there's no reason not to go on and create another one. The time that is freed up from one such asset lets you go on to the next asset. The payoff isn't as large, but you only need to generate enough income to meet your expenses. At which point, you are free to pursue anything you want, including a proper startup -- just that you would not have to worry about mortgages and food at that point.
In short, Paul Graham writes about startups and Tim Ferris does not. One strategy is about net worth, the other is about income-generating assets. They are strategies should be used consciously, not blindly.
Tim Ferris, on the other hand, is talking about a business asset that generates income with the least amount of personal time in its day-to-day operation. You don't want to sell the asset because it is generating cash into your pocket. Instead the exit strategy involves leaving it running -- exactly like setting up a headless server with background daemons, instead of hooking up a keyboard, mouse, and monitor and babysitting it 24/7.
There's also a big misunderstanding about "working less". If you actually read the book, the initial setup still requires patience and effort, particularly if you're coming from a regular 9-5 job background. The other "track" in the book are for people who already own a small business, but they are doing the mom-and-pop thing and need to be owners of the business, and not merely self-employed. These people essentially own their own jobs, often work significantly more hours than regular corporate jobs, and don't have the upside of startup since these people want to keep their small business. This idea, by the way, is not new, and has been written about by other authors, such as Michael E. Gerber in his book, E-Myth.
By the way, once you created one income-generating asset, there's no reason not to go on and create another one. The time that is freed up from one such asset lets you go on to the next asset. The payoff isn't as large, but you only need to generate enough income to meet your expenses. At which point, you are free to pursue anything you want, including a proper startup -- just that you would not have to worry about mortgages and food at that point.
In short, Paul Graham writes about startups and Tim Ferris does not. One strategy is about net worth, the other is about income-generating assets. They are strategies should be used consciously, not blindly.
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A business reselling French sailor shirts (one of the examples in the book) would not require long hours or a co-founder and you would be able to outsource pretty much everything.
You see, Tim Ferris does not talk about startups, he talks about what he calls "muses" - small businesses that generate income with as little input of your time as possible. A web-based shop that resells something seems to be the exemplary muse.
You see, Tim Ferris does not talk about startups, he talks about what he calls "muses" - small businesses that generate income with as little input of your time as possible. A web-based shop that resells something seems to be the exemplary muse.
In interviews he makes it clear that you he doesnt think you should literally work only 4 hours. Especially when u are starting up a business.
Its more about building a business that can be run on autopilot. Its a lot harder to build a business while on autopilot.
Its more about building a business that can be run on autopilot. Its a lot harder to build a business while on autopilot.
I have a couple side businesses that do pretty well and run on auto pilot. I don't even spend 4 hours a month on them. I could work full time on them and double the profit probably, but it wouldn't be worth it.
This is the kind of stuff I want to read about. Are your side businesses technology-oriented?
Online poker.
Links?
not his example, but I made sth like 5000€ last year from this site http://lottoliste.de/ which is basically a list of german online lottery offers, I just did a price comparison and bought some adwords. Since all these sites offer lifetime affiliate payments I make like 100€ a month for 0 hours.
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rakesucks.com and thestarsexchange.com. Please note that I didn't do the design for either. As embarrassing as they look, they make pretty good money.
That second one took a couple tries to parse. For a second I thought you were in the sex change business.
I wish, it would probably be more profitable. Too labor intensive though.
I knew about that interpretation of the name going in, but thought it might help. No way of knowing if it has or not, but the site does surprisingly well, so it at least isn't killing it.
I knew about that interpretation of the name going in, but thought it might help. No way of knowing if it has or not, but the site does surprisingly well, so it at least isn't killing it.
By shaving the 'y' and 'o' from every instance of 'you' it is possible to cut so much fat out of the working week that just 4 hours gives you time to build a fortune 500 company in a month.
Ferris likely made a lot more money from his book than from his "dietary supplement" business he is very vague about -- in the same way the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" author skims over his own business results and sells a lot of books.
They are both easy sells -- not working much and generating tons of money -- but I would like to see examples of businesses that do this in the real world.* I work 60+ hours a week on my app (work I enjoy). I am convinced it is impossible to outsource and not put in the hours without competitors eating your lunch.
*plentyoffish being the only example I can think of.
They are both easy sells -- not working much and generating tons of money -- but I would like to see examples of businesses that do this in the real world.* I work 60+ hours a week on my app (work I enjoy). I am convinced it is impossible to outsource and not put in the hours without competitors eating your lunch.
*plentyoffish being the only example I can think of.
I don't remember the name of the supplement business, but I did find the site at one point. It was total snake oil bullshit. He was even selling the same thing as two brands, one to "sharpen your mind" and the other to "focus your athletic strength", or something like that.
The other thing is, in the book he plainly admits he worked very long hours while building the business. It was only once it was an established concern that it was possible to remove himself from the picture so much. Well no shit, owners of successful businesses don't need to work all that hard. Who knew? The trick is building the business.
The other thing is, in the book he plainly admits he worked very long hours while building the business. It was only once it was an established concern that it was possible to remove himself from the picture so much. Well no shit, owners of successful businesses don't need to work all that hard. Who knew? The trick is building the business.
I think like any book or 'plan' that you should take from it what works. I've read this recently and it kind of works if you're single, but if you've a family or other responsibilities then there are a couple of elements that just don't work. Take from it what you can and adapt to suit your needs. I also enjoyed the book The e-myth Revisited as that told me about systemization and also Rich Dad, Poor Dad for being an 'investor'. I actually like to work, though I have a few businesses that generate good regular revenue (www.sourceguardian.com, www.europeantenders.com and www.ukscrap.com) and I hardly touch them. What they enable me to do is experiment with other 'stuff' and to build other businesses without the concern of paying the mortgage, food bills etc. Oh, I outsourced nearly everything 8 years ago and built the above using outsourced programming talent (who I subsequently made partners in the venture after we launched)
The rules are not for a startup. The rules are if you think of your real 'life' (like travel) as outside work and would hence like to spend as less time as possible for work and enjoy life for the rest.
In a startup your work is the biggest part of your life, and many would have said that it should be done only if you are absolutely passionate about your 'work' to not mind its taking over your 'life'.
Specifically incase of a startup:
1. You do need to work long hours. 2. Startups run best with atleast 2 founders. 3. Cannot outsource the most critical parts. More often than not almost nothing at all as money is scarce.
The books is nice though but refers to a different lifestyle. The only things that work for also for a startup life are his thoughts on GTD - handling email etc.
In a startup your work is the biggest part of your life, and many would have said that it should be done only if you are absolutely passionate about your 'work' to not mind its taking over your 'life'.
Specifically incase of a startup:
1. You do need to work long hours. 2. Startups run best with atleast 2 founders. 3. Cannot outsource the most critical parts. More often than not almost nothing at all as money is scarce.
The books is nice though but refers to a different lifestyle. The only things that work for also for a startup life are his thoughts on GTD - handling email etc.
4HWW is a classic example of how something can be simple but not easy
4HWW is first and foremost a book on marketing. The lesson is on how Ferris is fantastic at self promotion and promoting his snake oil business. The title of the book is nothing more than clever provocative marketing, not a literal recommendation. The hammock and palm trees on the cover are a proven marketing formula that someone has used every few years for ages, for example http://www.lazyway.net. I saw some self improvement book from the sixties with the same graphic.
I read some interview with Ferris a while ago where he revealed that he deliberately went around making semi-hyperbolic, controversial blog posts to draw attention to himself and incidentally his book. He sequentially targeted the online tech community, the health business community, and so forth. It worked well.
The guy is just very, very good at marketing and promotion and is worth studying in that respect. The rest of what he has to say is fairly valid and worth reading (minus the hyperbole), but it can be reasonably reduced to very little. It really boils down to an application of good executive management principles to your own time:
-Measure your productivity such that you're carefully considering meaningful outputs as they relate to personal goals/needs and not "work done."
-Track the real marginal returns on time invested and don't throw hours at a low marginal return: minimize time invested appropriately. Focus on the few high return things you do. Consider dropping altogether the low return things.
-Eliminate activities that waste your time or clutter your mind and break flow, e.g. always-on email. Minimize information inputs to that which truly matters.
-Do a proper analysis on the hourly value of your time, consider opportunity costs, and outsource tasks appropriately.
I think all the salient points in the book fit under these bullets. There's also a lot of fluff about international travel and so forth. As I say, the book has merit and is worth a quick read, but the main thing to take away from Tim Ferris is how far good marketing can take you.
I read some interview with Ferris a while ago where he revealed that he deliberately went around making semi-hyperbolic, controversial blog posts to draw attention to himself and incidentally his book. He sequentially targeted the online tech community, the health business community, and so forth. It worked well.
The guy is just very, very good at marketing and promotion and is worth studying in that respect. The rest of what he has to say is fairly valid and worth reading (minus the hyperbole), but it can be reasonably reduced to very little. It really boils down to an application of good executive management principles to your own time:
-Measure your productivity such that you're carefully considering meaningful outputs as they relate to personal goals/needs and not "work done."
-Track the real marginal returns on time invested and don't throw hours at a low marginal return: minimize time invested appropriately. Focus on the few high return things you do. Consider dropping altogether the low return things.
-Eliminate activities that waste your time or clutter your mind and break flow, e.g. always-on email. Minimize information inputs to that which truly matters.
-Do a proper analysis on the hourly value of your time, consider opportunity costs, and outsource tasks appropriately.
I think all the salient points in the book fit under these bullets. There's also a lot of fluff about international travel and so forth. As I say, the book has merit and is worth a quick read, but the main thing to take away from Tim Ferris is how far good marketing can take you.
After a while, (n<10) hour workweeks aren't that much fun, for most people. You can only kickbox/travel/party for so long before life become meaningless and unsatisfying.
Personally I much prefer 37signal's "4 day workweek", where you have plenty of time for yourself but are still working and creating something of value which you care about.
Personally I much prefer 37signal's "4 day workweek", where you have plenty of time for yourself but are still working and creating something of value which you care about.
Well, it looks like the answer to your question is no. A lot of different opinions though. I think it and the many similar books are a good read though. It doesn't hurt to manage your time better. It definitely doesn't hurt to make a foray into outsourcing on your own, if only for the learning experience. And I honestly believe you should spend the bulk of your time on something your passionate about, and if it's not your day job, then it's a great idea to cut down on those hours.
This book just rubbed me the wrong way. It was so soulless, that I found it hard to take it seriously.
The book itself was also clearly an instance of the theories he was proposing in the book. While clever in a recursive kind of way, this made me like it even less because I kept thinking, "You can't fool me with the slimeyness. I know what you're doing."
The book itself was also clearly an instance of the theories he was proposing in the book. While clever in a recursive kind of way, this made me like it even less because I kept thinking, "You can't fool me with the slimeyness. I know what you're doing."
I found it funny when half way through the book I realized what I held in my hands was a product of exactly what was described in the book.
Whether you liked it or not, it sounds like you read it and I'll assume paid for it so that's proof that the theory can work. Even with skeptical people! ;)
Whether you liked it or not, it sounds like you read it and I'll assume paid for it so that's proof that the theory can work. Even with skeptical people! ;)
Well, I remember that he actually almost explicitly says this in a footnote in the part where he talks about choosing the right kind of product to sell, where selling information is best because the markup can be thousands of percentage points. Nevertheless, although Tim Ferriss absolutely makes a ton of money from his book and speaking gigs, all of the things he describes in the book were accomplished, by definition, before he earned a cent of book royalties.
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I don't know if I would call 4HWW the opposite of Paul Graham. Consider YC itself - they give you money, access to VCs, etc - your job is to make something that is cool. This isn't outsourcing everything, but it is very much a capitalist division of labor, which I see as the main message of the book. Focus on where you add value, outsource everything else. The cofounder versus soulmate debate I think is different - it's more of a morale thing than anything else, I think Tim's point is about productivity, not morale.
The title of the book similarly refers to the 4 hours of actual value adding work being done a week - in a startup, you're working 50-80 hours a week because you're adding value all those hours that couldn't come from someone else (or, that you don't want to necessarily for team morale purposes)
The title of the book similarly refers to the 4 hours of actual value adding work being done a week - in a startup, you're working 50-80 hours a week because you're adding value all those hours that couldn't come from someone else (or, that you don't want to necessarily for team morale purposes)
I skimmed the book and it made no sense. Almost everything I read skipped at least one step in logic. "You can work less and be rich. I worked less and became rich." The "how" seemed to be left out of many of his examples.
Anyways, to provide a real answer and not to just diss the book, I doubt many start-ups work a 4 hour work week. The fact is, there is a lot of work to get done in a start-up. If you only worked 4 hours a week, and you needed 2000 hours to get it done, well, that would take you over 9 years to get done. You can't magically make start-up work go away. Outsourcing only works if you have capital to pay for it. So if you don't have capital, and 9 years is too long, then you might just need to work harder, longer, and with more people to get it done.
Anyways, to provide a real answer and not to just diss the book, I doubt many start-ups work a 4 hour work week. The fact is, there is a lot of work to get done in a start-up. If you only worked 4 hours a week, and you needed 2000 hours to get it done, well, that would take you over 9 years to get done. You can't magically make start-up work go away. Outsourcing only works if you have capital to pay for it. So if you don't have capital, and 9 years is too long, then you might just need to work harder, longer, and with more people to get it done.
He explains a lot of that stuff in detail in later chapters. I was kind of annoyed about that for the first half of the book, because he hints at it a lot... but if you stick with it, there's some very interesting and possibly useful information (depending on what you want to do). I was surprised by his very specific insights about running online ad campaigns, doing market research, managing manufacturing and shipping, etc. Some of the advice is so specific as to be a little bit unsettling (the stuff about how to appear to be an "expert" in something without actually being an expert in it), but overall I'm glad I stuck with it.
I skimmed the book and it made no sense.
I read the book, and it did make sense. Amazing, that!
I read the book, and it did make sense. Amazing, that!
> The "how" seemed to be left out of many of his examples.
If you purchased the book, the how should be self explanatory.
If you purchased the book, the how should be self explanatory.
Ok, that doesn't make sense.
The point of those late night "here is my yacht, here is my house, here is my trophy wife. Call now and be like me!" infomercials is that they're making money from selling the money making system, rather than from real estate or chinchilla farms.
Skim less, understand more. :-)
Skim less, understand more. :-)
But aren't you skeptical? Sure, those infomercials are selling the system, but if you'd bought it, you'd expect the system would explain how to do it, right? I'd expect the book to explain how to do it too.
But I found it very conclusory. It never really explained how. It seems like almost everything I read was "I saved more money and did less work, thats how i did this." But there was no explanation exactly how he did it. Most of the examples I read did not fully explain the nuts and bolts of how to do it. Sure, if you want inspiration, go ahead. But you don't need a whole book to say you work less and earn more. He can say that in one line and be done with it. I expected more, and I found it lacking. To me it was the equivalent of writing a book on stocks and filling up 300 pages with "I bought high and sold low, thats how I'm rich."
I'm quite confident my skimming did not result in a lack of understanding, but more. I skimmed a lot, and each part I skimmed lacked substance. If it consistently lacked substance, it told me not to waste my time.
But I found it very conclusory. It never really explained how. It seems like almost everything I read was "I saved more money and did less work, thats how i did this." But there was no explanation exactly how he did it. Most of the examples I read did not fully explain the nuts and bolts of how to do it. Sure, if you want inspiration, go ahead. But you don't need a whole book to say you work less and earn more. He can say that in one line and be done with it. I expected more, and I found it lacking. To me it was the equivalent of writing a book on stocks and filling up 300 pages with "I bought high and sold low, thats how I'm rich."
I'm quite confident my skimming did not result in a lack of understanding, but more. I skimmed a lot, and each part I skimmed lacked substance. If it consistently lacked substance, it told me not to waste my time.
That's funny, our startup has a 168-hour workweek.
It's admirable that it works for some people (I have read the book, by the way) but the 4-hour workweekers that I've dealt with professionally seem to be out of touch with the industry.
It's admirable that it works for some people (I have read the book, by the way) but the 4-hour workweekers that I've dealt with professionally seem to be out of touch with the industry.
You don't need to work long hours. The title of the book makes it clear.
That actually wansn't the original title of the book. It was something like "Drug Dealing for Fun and Profit," but it didn't fly with the publusher.
He's already said that the "4-hour" part of the book is only a portion and is more about focusing on your core work and stripping off all extraneous parts.
That actually wansn't the original title of the book. It was something like "Drug Dealing for Fun and Profit," but it didn't fly with the publusher.
He's already said that the "4-hour" part of the book is only a portion and is more about focusing on your core work and stripping off all extraneous parts.
As already said, this doesn't apply to startups so much as a certain type of lifestyle business, that almost certainly can't be started on a 4-hour work week. For Ferris's sort of thing, partners become an undesirable hassle, and the work involved doesn't require the level of detail-oriented talent that tech startup work does.
It would be interesting to know if his advice is practical. We tend to be the type who prefer to attack hard and risky problems, but if there's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there that we fail to see, it'd be nice to know where it is and how to find it.
It would be interesting to know if his advice is practical. We tend to be the type who prefer to attack hard and risky problems, but if there's a lot of low-hanging fruit out there that we fail to see, it'd be nice to know where it is and how to find it.
* You don't need to work long hours. The title of the book makes it clear.
* Going solo is fine. You don't need a soulmate for your startup.
* Outsource everything.
I've read the book and it makes a lot of sense, but I'm not aware of any startup that follows this philosophy.
Do you know of any 4-hour workweek startups?