Toledo’s Last Swordmakers(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Toledo’s Last Swordmakers
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/24/toledos-last-swordmakers-refuse-to-give-up-on-their-ancient-craft
57 comments
+1 to that, the Wallace Collection is incredible - I think it's one of those things in London that not nearly enough people know about.
It's also got an interesting history: "Bequeathed to the nation by the widow of the illegitimate son of the 4th Marquess of Hertford in 1897 on the condition that no object should ever leave the collection, even for loan exhibitions." - from my write-up on https://www.niche-museums.com/36
It's also got an interesting history: "Bequeathed to the nation by the widow of the illegitimate son of the 4th Marquess of Hertford in 1897 on the condition that no object should ever leave the collection, even for loan exhibitions." - from my write-up on https://www.niche-museums.com/36
Love than Stone Henge is listed on https://www.niche-museums.com !
I haven't forged anything yet, looking forward to an opportunity to spend some quality time playing early next year.
I've made a couple knives this year, though. Milling, and then grinding on absolutely the wrong kind of grinder for the job. So that was exhausting, but fun.
> a nice change from programming
I absolutely agree. I took up metalwork because I wanted to make something visible, that you could touch. Weaponry isn't really my thing, but I'll probably make more knives, I enjoy the esthetic constraints, history of the art and materials.
I've made a couple knives this year, though. Milling, and then grinding on absolutely the wrong kind of grinder for the job. So that was exhausting, but fun.
> a nice change from programming
I absolutely agree. I took up metalwork because I wanted to make something visible, that you could touch. Weaponry isn't really my thing, but I'll probably make more knives, I enjoy the esthetic constraints, history of the art and materials.
Knives aren't always weapons - I think the satisfaction comes from making a tool, it's easy to tell when you've done a decent job (and when you haven't...)
A good knife is rarely a weapon. Even people who use weapons as part of their profession don't use the weapon very often.
vs a woodworker who could conceivably use a carving knife multiple times per day.
I'm good at fighting. Which is why I recognize it is a losing game.
Tools win. Build something.
vs a woodworker who could conceivably use a carving knife multiple times per day.
I'm good at fighting. Which is why I recognize it is a losing game.
Tools win. Build something.
That's awesome. I used to make knives with my dad, as a kid. He was a dentist with his own lab, so he taught me how to use all the lab tools, and we used lost-wax to cast various ornaments to be attached for decoration.
I admit I used to get pretty annoyed after spending hours on the various steps. And I don't really enjoy sharpening either.
Years after he passed away, I found myself on a weekend campout, relating to some scouts the amount of work my dad used to put into making a quality knife. I told them I could baton with this knife he had made for me, no problem. So I gathered the wood, and with one whack knocked the blade clean off!
Upon examination, he had used epoxy to fit a blade with no tang! Later after I returned home, I compared this to his own knives, and they all had tangs.
I am still not sure why or how mine ended up that way--guessing he thought he could finish it up fast and a kid would not exactly expect to baton with this thing...
I admit I used to get pretty annoyed after spending hours on the various steps. And I don't really enjoy sharpening either.
Years after he passed away, I found myself on a weekend campout, relating to some scouts the amount of work my dad used to put into making a quality knife. I told them I could baton with this knife he had made for me, no problem. So I gathered the wood, and with one whack knocked the blade clean off!
Upon examination, he had used epoxy to fit a blade with no tang! Later after I returned home, I compared this to his own knives, and they all had tangs.
I am still not sure why or how mine ended up that way--guessing he thought he could finish it up fast and a kid would not exactly expect to baton with this thing...
The swords are unexpectedly affordable.
https://marianozamorano.com/en/6-swords
I feel like any rpg lover should own at least a small dagger.
https://marianozamorano.com/en/6-swords
I feel like any rpg lover should own at least a small dagger.
I bought a kitchen knife there maybe 8 years ago. Lovely knife, surprisingly cheap. Still excellent; I wish I had bought more. It was so much cheaper than our other (german made) kitchen knives and just as good if not better.
Mr Zamorano was also super nice despite our limited spanish. Hint - get it wrapped well for travel. He asked if were traveling on rail/air and made sure the knife was nicely sealed. Sure enough, the RENFE folks found the knife and inspected it carefully before we could board.
Mr Zamorano was also super nice despite our limited spanish. Hint - get it wrapped well for travel. He asked if were traveling on rail/air and made sure the knife was nicely sealed. Sure enough, the RENFE folks found the knife and inspected it carefully before we could board.
Mr. Zamorano is a real gem. Despite showing up unannounced, he let us explore the workshop, and we learned a tremendous amount about the craft.
Some of them could use better names, though. "Medieval Sword", "Medieval Sword 2", "Medieval Sword 3" is kind of hilarious but c'mon, you could put a little marketing polish on that.
A couple also seem to be missing pictures.
A couple also seem to be missing pictures.
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Toledo, Spain. The inspiration behind the Toledo(, Ohio) Blade newspaper.
Hah, TIL! Always wondered how that newspaper got that name.
As someone who grew up in Toledo, I get unnaturally excited whenever someone else is from there. Most people I encounter from Ohio (which in big coastal cities is also not that common) are from one of the big C's: Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati.
I lived in Toledo (Ohio) for four years and never got that connection. Neat factoid.
Fun fact: in the past, when La Vuelta a España rode into Toledo, the winner of that stage was gifted a sword. I don't know if this happens every time, but it definitely happened to David Millar, a British rider who won the time trial there in 2009: https://pezcyclingnews.com/vuelta09/vuelta09-st-20-millar-pu.... It could very well still happen.
Visiting Toledo is on my todo list, as is working out how to get a sword through customs on the way home :)
Visiting Toledo is on my todo list, as is working out how to get a sword through customs on the way home :)
Loss of sword makers is a global problem! There used to many sword makers you could get a sword from as an Army officer - now there's only a couple left.
Modern military swords are interesting; I find it pretty amazing that the Polish made a new functional (non-ceremonial) sword design as late as 1934 and it was (successfully!!) used in WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabla_wz._34
While the polish were famously the last ones here, even the great powers had new functional designs made pretty late, e.g. the British and US in 1912/13
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1908_cavalry_sword
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szabla_wz._34
While the polish were famously the last ones here, even the great powers had new functional designs made pretty late, e.g. the British and US in 1912/13
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1908_cavalry_sword
Does make me wonder what a sword would look like if made for modern combat, with modern materials and manufacturing.
Probably would look like mall ninja shit, black 'tactical' look and stupid curves.
Probably would look like mall ninja shit, black 'tactical' look and stupid curves.
In modern hand to hand combat you don't use a sword, you use this: https://www.rmjtactical.com/collections/tactical-tomahawks/p...
> In modern hand to hand combat you don't use a sword
Modern soldiers still carry, and sometimes use, bayonets, and in some regiments they literally call them 'swords'. And they don't look like this toy.
Modern soldiers still carry, and sometimes use, bayonets, and in some regiments they literally call them 'swords'. And they don't look like this toy.
> toy
I'm gonna assume you are not really informed about current (US) special forces equipment usage (i.e. the ones who regularly perform h2h combat). This particular item has been issued since something like 2004 to various units. In fact a few years ago there was a scandal in the Seal teams where a CO liked to ask his soldiers if they "had got blood on their hawks". I'm sure you can find some references, if you can be bothered.
I'm gonna assume you are not really informed about current (US) special forces equipment usage (i.e. the ones who regularly perform h2h combat). This particular item has been issued since something like 2004 to various units. In fact a few years ago there was a scandal in the Seal teams where a CO liked to ask his soldiers if they "had got blood on their hawks". I'm sure you can find some references, if you can be bothered.
Your quote proves the point. Got in trouble for talking about them as toys.
I'm guessing you don't have much current military experience yourself.
I'm guessing you don't have much current military experience yourself.
I don't claim to, but I am sure your overwhelmingly superior experience negates anything I could possibly write.
The British did a cavalry charge with swords as late as 1941. They were carrying the swords but I believe they weren't drawn unfortunately.
Many kids grow up reading pirate books and you quickly learn that Toledo or Damascus steel is what you want. I'm pretty sure that once travel normalizes and tourists come back people will start making swords again in Toledo, if only to capitalize on kids like me that eventually visit with a bit of disposable income...
https://marianozamorano.com/en/6-swords
I'm going to be blunt here:
Apart from some rapier models, these look like garbage. These are slabs of iron in the shape of what vaguely looks like a sword.
Compare these to actual swords like:
https://www.albion-swords.com/
http://www.christianfletcher.com/
Or something a bit more down-to-earth like from Peter Regenyei who started out by making practice swords for HEMA practitioners:
https://regenyei.com/
I'm going to be blunt here:
Apart from some rapier models, these look like garbage. These are slabs of iron in the shape of what vaguely looks like a sword.
Compare these to actual swords like:
https://www.albion-swords.com/
http://www.christianfletcher.com/
Or something a bit more down-to-earth like from Peter Regenyei who started out by making practice swords for HEMA practitioners:
https://regenyei.com/
When I hear master swordsmith, I think of something like this: https://www.owenbush.co.uk/product-category/swords/
(bonus if you're in the UK they run a sword smithing week long course)
As Baxuz points out, the swords on sale are not overly great quality. unless you like the specific look of them, you are better off getting a version made for HEMA re-enactment.
(bonus if you're in the UK they run a sword smithing week long course)
As Baxuz points out, the swords on sale are not overly great quality. unless you like the specific look of them, you are better off getting a version made for HEMA re-enactment.
>I'm going to be blunt here.
I see what you did there.
the swords in those 3 links look just like the Asian ones you can see in Toledo. Hard to tell from the picture.
To the untrained eye, perhaps.
Albion and Christian Fletcher are as far off from the Toledo ones as a Yugo or a Reliant Robin is from a Ferrari.
Albion and Christian Fletcher are as far off from the Toledo ones as a Yugo or a Reliant Robin is from a Ferrari.
Very, very sad, my growing up my grand grand father's house had many swords made in Toledo and wooden decorative shields with the family insignia on them, they were just decorative, he got them from a trip to Spain, the swords had very thin tangs, but of course me being a kid dreamed of using them for my sword play
Very sad to see as the article says, a several thousand year old tradition such as this one being so, so close to ending, I feel that the Spanish government ought to step up and find with arrangement for these artisans to ensure that the city doesn't lose such strong cultural heritage
Very sad to see as the article says, a several thousand year old tradition such as this one being so, so close to ending, I feel that the Spanish government ought to step up and find with arrangement for these artisans to ensure that the city doesn't lose such strong cultural heritage
Don't worry. Once swords would once again become useful on the battlefield and in dark alleys, this skill will resurface and thrive again.
Chances for it are not small enough.
Chances for it are not small enough.
I had a Japanese friend who says he had a real Samurai Outfit and sword. It was giving to him by his Grandmother who had inherited it from her family. When Lord of the Rings came out, a different fellow I worked with bought a replica of Anduril Sword from LOTR's. There was a discussion at work about how good the Anduril sword was which led to a challenge. I was to wear the Samurai Outfit since it was my size and use the Samurai sword and he was to fashion some armor and use the Anduril sword. He backed out after his wife threatened him and me.
there is a very good chance that the replica sword is made from a relatively cheap stainless steel with uniform hardness through the blade. While the excerpt below is about cheap replica katanas it can apply to any such replica blade:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing
"Most cheap reproductions are made from inexpensive stainless steels such as 440A (often just termed "440").[45] With a normal Rockwell hardness of 56 and up to 60, stainless steel is much harder than the back of a differentially hardened katana (HR50), and is therefore much more prone to breaking, especially when used to make long blades. Stainless steel is also much softer at the edge (a traditional katana is usually more than HR60 at the edge)."
So, i'd not risk using such replica sword against a real world sword :) On the other side one can imagine how a modern sword can be made - say carbon fiber core inside titanium monocrystal envelope with fused, like laser sintered, ceramic/nano-diamond skin and edge. And resorting to cold weapons may be a reasonable alternative to guns in the future conflicts inside space stations and planetary bases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing
"Most cheap reproductions are made from inexpensive stainless steels such as 440A (often just termed "440").[45] With a normal Rockwell hardness of 56 and up to 60, stainless steel is much harder than the back of a differentially hardened katana (HR50), and is therefore much more prone to breaking, especially when used to make long blades. Stainless steel is also much softer at the edge (a traditional katana is usually more than HR60 at the edge)."
So, i'd not risk using such replica sword against a real world sword :) On the other side one can imagine how a modern sword can be made - say carbon fiber core inside titanium monocrystal envelope with fused, like laser sintered, ceramic/nano-diamond skin and edge. And resorting to cold weapons may be a reasonable alternative to guns in the future conflicts inside space stations and planetary bases.
Wielding a sword in zero-G would be problematic. As you swing the sword, your body is going to torque in the opposite direction (conservation of angular momentum)!
>your body is going to torque in the opposite direction.
and it may make sense to have an additional blade attached to the other end of your body. The art of sword fighting in zero G or low G - imagine on Moon like those long high jumps from Crouching Dragon :) - would look different.
and it may make sense to have an additional blade attached to the other end of your body. The art of sword fighting in zero G or low G - imagine on Moon like those long high jumps from Crouching Dragon :) - would look different.
Uh oh. You both are lucky that he had such a wife, because there was a big chance to leave you both injured, or worse. Even the best armor is not absolutely damage-proof. Also, such "test" is rather pointless if done not between trained swordmen.
Yeah. If nothing else, imagine how it would feel to have damaged an heirloom samurai sword by hacking into a cheap movie prop sword and chips the metal.
I was told that with gemstones, a stone of lesser hardness can never scratch one of greater hardness, no matter what. I wonder how that relates to a cheap potmetal sword and a strong, hardened one...
You can easily smash a diamond with a hammer, even though the diamond is far harder than a hammer.
Aside from that, metals quite often gouge and chip one another, and 100+ year old swords are not automatically stronger or made of better materials than present day pot metal.
After a certain point, a sword is more valuable and useful as an art piece than as a weapon outside of emergencies.
Aside from that, metals quite often gouge and chip one another, and 100+ year old swords are not automatically stronger or made of better materials than present day pot metal.
After a certain point, a sword is more valuable and useful as an art piece than as a weapon outside of emergencies.
That is basically the definition of hardness. It doesn't make gems indestructible; they can be worn down like anything else. We cut diamonds even though we don't have something harder to cut them with; it's just much harder than cutting softer stones with diamonds.
A cut gem's sharp corners will be worn down over time by the paper the gem is kept in. Paper's not that hard.
(And of course, even if scratching were completely impossible, gems are still easy to smash. There are all kinds of deformations that aren't scratching.)
A cut gem's sharp corners will be worn down over time by the paper the gem is kept in. Paper's not that hard.
(And of course, even if scratching were completely impossible, gems are still easy to smash. There are all kinds of deformations that aren't scratching.)
I've had a very nice kitchen knife get stuck in an unexpected bone. The blade lost a big chip, because it twisted in my hand after sinking in a little. But no, the bone didn't scratch the blade.
I don't get the economics here. The sword run around 300 euro in the online storefront, and claim to be 10-20 hours of work. I pay about 15-30 euro per hour of labor.
Toss in equipment, materials, labor, overhead, taxes, benefits, and all the other stuff, and I just don't see how this can be done. Either the income is McD's, or there's something fishy going on.
I'm also not clear what "last master swordsmith" even means.
Anyone got an explanation? I'm wondering if this is a nice marketing piece, if I'm missing something, or something else. I'm probably missing something, but...
Toss in equipment, materials, labor, overhead, taxes, benefits, and all the other stuff, and I just don't see how this can be done. Either the income is McD's, or there's something fishy going on.
I'm also not clear what "last master swordsmith" even means.
Anyone got an explanation? I'm wondering if this is a nice marketing piece, if I'm missing something, or something else. I'm probably missing something, but...
Keep in mind that everything in Spain is much less expensive compared to the US. Especially in a place like Toledo, which has 20% unemployment. They are a family business, with just one guy working in the "factory", so probably minimal employee overhead. Material and tooling costs for making a sword are pretty cheap anyway, even in the US.
Toledo used to be famous for its sword makers, but now all the other shops just import cheap knock-offs from China. So that's why he is called the last master sword-maker.
Toledo used to be famous for its sword makers, but now all the other shops just import cheap knock-offs from China. So that's why he is called the last master sword-maker.
Unfortunately, the pay in Spain is generally pretty low. If I'm not mistaken, the minimum wage is about 7.6 euros per hour. It's actually ~6.50 euros an hour, which is 1050/month, but they get paid 14 times per year (there's two "bonus" pay cheques per year). So if you are full time year around employee, minimum is 7.6 while a more casual worker could be 6.50. Getting 15-30 euro per hour is more than double minimum wage at the low end, and nearly four times the minimum at the high end, so it seems somewhat plausible. A senior software engineer would only be making about that much here (40-50k euros).
I actually think the take-home pay would be below minimum wage here. 15-30 isn't take-home. In most companies, you'd be down to 7.5-15 after basic overhead (taxes, insurance, etc.). Add material costs, time to spend running web site, doing interviews, rounding up clients, billing, vendor management, etc. and it's hard to see how this makes ends meet.
Yeah, take home is always lower. The 6.5-7.5 minimum is before taxes and all that other stuff, take home would be even lower.
Just adding that the bonus payment is not always 14. some companies default to this (or 13) for what feels like extra cash for xmas, but most companies nowadays just pay 12 times.
If you are in one of the 14 payments one you can ask for 12 and, if I remember correctly when I did, they have to comply.
If you are in one of the 14 payments one you can ask for 12 and, if I remember correctly when I did, they have to comply.
Ah, for some reason I thought the 14 pays was for everyone.
Even junior grade engineering positions to be around the same.
To get something close to 2000 euro, either get lucky at a company that actually values employees instead of calling them collaborators, or having a couple of years experience.
To get something close to 2000 euro, either get lucky at a company that actually values employees instead of calling them collaborators, or having a couple of years experience.
That does seem like low pay for a master of a craft. Maybe the claimed 10-20 hour process isn't really exclusive to one sword? If similar pieces are made in batches, maybe it takes 10-20 hours to go through the steps to take a batch of several swords from raw material to completion?
As an aside, my sister studied abroad in Spain and brought me back a sword from Toledo, which to a teenage boy was basically the most amazing gift possible. Good reminder to thank her again and/or send her something fun!
As an aside, my sister studied abroad in Spain and brought me back a sword from Toledo, which to a teenage boy was basically the most amazing gift possible. Good reminder to thank her again and/or send her something fun!
400-500 EUR actually seems pretty cheap for a handmade sword? Would've expected at least like triple that.
Handmade but production line work still, they can probably churn out quite a lot of those in a short amount of time, especially if they can work off stock metal and use hydraulic hammers and the like.
I think the blade are press forged (if thats the correct word) where the blade is press cut from a sheet, ground and fitted to the guard.
Press forging isn't the issue. Albion armoury uses press cutting + CNC milling for their swords but they are leaps and bounds better than these 500€ slabs that are barely better than mall ninja wallhangers.
If anyone is interested in medieval swords and armour I really recommend a visit to the Wallace Collection in London.