Even Epik says the Texas abortion “whistleblower” site violates its rules(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Even Epik says the Texas abortion “whistleblower” site violates its rules
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/even-epik-says-the-texas-abortion-whistleblower-site-violates-its-rules/
85 comments
This whole concept where citizens track each other / report personal information about others ... and then sue them / possibly profit (or just collect money) for events that seem to have nothing to do with them seems insane at every level.
The fact the Texas legislature came up with that completely ridiculous scheme is not that surprising. They just aren't that good at making laws and have elected a number of people who show no concern with the general welfare of their constituents.
That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane. Even operating on the assumption that the conservative majority on the court wanted to overturn Roe without having big headlines saying "Roe Overturned" choosing this absolutely insane law to do it is not going to do them any favors in the long term. The chance of this backfiring is so high that it's hard to imagine anybody looking at it and saying it was a good idea. How can they not be feeling like Roger Taney after Dred Scott right now? This could be the beginning of the end for restrictive abortion laws nationwide, to so decisively win a battle that costs you the war.
Edit: Wow, this is getting downvoted fast. I'm leaving it up so history can be the judge. I'm feeling confident that effectively issuing a Letter of Marque to every single US citizen on their own constituents is will turn out badly. This law is only going to be abused, and severely, unless the sensible minds in the courts wake up and put it on hold.
That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane. Even operating on the assumption that the conservative majority on the court wanted to overturn Roe without having big headlines saying "Roe Overturned" choosing this absolutely insane law to do it is not going to do them any favors in the long term. The chance of this backfiring is so high that it's hard to imagine anybody looking at it and saying it was a good idea. How can they not be feeling like Roger Taney after Dred Scott right now? This could be the beginning of the end for restrictive abortion laws nationwide, to so decisively win a battle that costs you the war.
Edit: Wow, this is getting downvoted fast. I'm leaving it up so history can be the judge. I'm feeling confident that effectively issuing a Letter of Marque to every single US citizen on their own constituents is will turn out badly. This law is only going to be abused, and severely, unless the sensible minds in the courts wake up and put it on hold.
> the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it
The Court rejected an emergency stay. It did not uphold the law. That will come after hearings next year.
The Court rejected an emergency stay. It did not uphold the law. That will come after hearings next year.
The damage is already done. This galaxy brain legislation is being picked up by 6 other states[1] and growing. By the time the Supreme Court gets back to it there will be at least a dozen other implementations to consider as well. If they opt for a narrow ruling the whole case could drag out for a decade or more. Meanwhile legal bounty hunters get to make claims with little to no merit on the hopes of getting some $10,000 payouts and with little risk--the abortion providers pay the court costs win or lose.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/03/texas-abortion...
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/03/texas-abortion...
> the abortion providers pay the court costs win or lose
Wait, so if I had even a thin basis for a suspicion, I could file cases against the legislators who voted for the bull?
Wait, so if I had even a thin basis for a suspicion, I could file cases against the legislators who voted for the bull?
If you lose you have to pay your own court costs, but the abortion provider pays their own costs regardless. If you win the abortion provider also pays your court costs.
From what I’ve read there is nothing preventing you from filing frivolous suits against the legislators. They have to defend themselves or face a summary judgement. The law as written is wide open for abuse. This could be amended with a provision that excludes legislators and rich politically connected people.
From what I’ve read there is nothing preventing you from filing frivolous suits against the legislators. They have to defend themselves or face a summary judgement. The law as written is wide open for abuse. This could be amended with a provision that excludes legislators and rich politically connected people.
Even better, you could do so in courts that are inconvenient for them (read: other end of the state), without any allegations that it's a proper venue for the case at all, and they couldn't move to place it in a more reasonable jurisdiction.
Granted, that provision is probably unconstitutional by itself, but it just goes to show you that the banning abortion part of the law is the least problematic part of the entire thing.
Granted, that provision is probably unconstitutional by itself, but it just goes to show you that the banning abortion part of the law is the least problematic part of the entire thing.
Between the time the court rejected a stay and the hearings next year, a constitutional right will be denied to countless people.
>a constitutional right
Exactly, just because it isn't specified or enumerated as a right in the constitution, doesn't mean it's not a right... right?
Exactly, just because it isn't specified or enumerated as a right in the constitution, doesn't mean it's not a right... right?
Yeah, causing damage in between. But that is what selecting justices was all about anyway last years.
Who will SCOTUS hand the bill to for the unplanned and unwanted children who are carried to term in the meantime by women who could not get access to healthcare until hearings are held [1]? Who should these women sue for damages due to defective statute and who have been harmed by the state of Texas?
[1] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-6-week-abortion-ban-p... (However, preliminary estimates suggest that the law could prevent roughly 132 procedures per day, or 4,009 per month.)
[1] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/texas-6-week-abortion-ban-p... (However, preliminary estimates suggest that the law could prevent roughly 132 procedures per day, or 4,009 per month.)
> The fact the Texas legislature came up with that completely ridiculous scheme is not that surprising. They just aren't that good at making laws
They are very good at making laws to do what they want (in this case, leverage precdent to ensure that that wfeffoets to block the law before it went into effect did not succeed, maximizing the chilling effect on abortion provision).
> That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane.
The Supreme Court did not rule on the legality of the law (either the abortion restriction or the enforcement mechanism), it only validated the Texas Legislature's attempt to avoid a pre-implementation block against the law. While this enables the chilling effect of the law, it does not validate the substance of the law.
> That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane.
If you want an outcome-oriented reasoning explanation, I’d say the majority wanted to set back the availability of abortion without overturning row; indeed, while likely still upholding it once a case reaches it through the slow path it has required.
They are very good at making laws to do what they want (in this case, leverage precdent to ensure that that wfeffoets to block the law before it went into effect did not succeed, maximizing the chilling effect on abortion provision).
> That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane.
The Supreme Court did not rule on the legality of the law (either the abortion restriction or the enforcement mechanism), it only validated the Texas Legislature's attempt to avoid a pre-implementation block against the law. While this enables the chilling effect of the law, it does not validate the substance of the law.
> That the Supreme Court basically rubber stamped it is absolutely insane.
If you want an outcome-oriented reasoning explanation, I’d say the majority wanted to set back the availability of abortion without overturning row; indeed, while likely still upholding it once a case reaches it through the slow path it has required.
This is not a "completely ridiculous scheme". This is a loophole in the constitution that Texas is employing.
IANAL, but this is how I understand it. The supreme court does not strike down laws in a preliminary injunction, it just prevents the attorney-general or other applicable officials from enforcing it. This law is written so that the attorney general has no part in enforcing the law, so the supreme court can't do a preliminary injunction. It can only strike down the law once somebody tries to use the law and it bubbles its way up the court system.
But of course if everybody is too afraid to break the law, the law has effect without ever being applied.
The best suggestion I heard on how to get rid of it would be to have Massachusetts ban handguns using the same loophole. Somehow I think that this stacked court will come to its senses when it is the 2nd amendment being threatened rather than the 14th.
IANAL, but this is how I understand it. The supreme court does not strike down laws in a preliminary injunction, it just prevents the attorney-general or other applicable officials from enforcing it. This law is written so that the attorney general has no part in enforcing the law, so the supreme court can't do a preliminary injunction. It can only strike down the law once somebody tries to use the law and it bubbles its way up the court system.
But of course if everybody is too afraid to break the law, the law has effect without ever being applied.
The best suggestion I heard on how to get rid of it would be to have Massachusetts ban handguns using the same loophole. Somehow I think that this stacked court will come to its senses when it is the 2nd amendment being threatened rather than the 14th.
texas probably got the idea from civil liability laws that were used being used against gun manufacturers prior to the federal immunity law. gun control organisations were using the court system to bankrupt manufacturers as a backdoor to banning guns.
I don't think that's a similar situation, really; those allowed injured parties to sue the manufacturers who made the dangerous device. In the US gun manufacturers are generally special-cased here; they have unusual protections that you wouldn't have if you, say, manufactured a defective water heater.
In this case totally _unrelated_ parties can sue, which seems entirely different.
In this case totally _unrelated_ parties can sue, which seems entirely different.
You're probably getting downvoted for this attitude:
> The fact the Texas legislature came up with that completely ridiculous scheme is not that surprising.
People on this site tend to downvote if you talk based on perceived state attitudes. The same thing happens if you make blanket statements about California, it's citizens, or electorate.
> The fact the Texas legislature came up with that completely ridiculous scheme is not that surprising.
People on this site tend to downvote if you talk based on perceived state attitudes. The same thing happens if you make blanket statements about California, it's citizens, or electorate.
It's not a blanket statement about a state but the legislature which is much smaller group of people.
Unfortunately it's a small jump to thinking, "somebody elected these people" and then projecting those sentiments widely. Anyway, that's what I've learned about talking about Texas and California broadly. I've lived in both states and have both negative and positive things to say about each, but when I criticize them I've figured out I have to be very concise about describing with who and what I find wrong in order to have my opinion heard and respected.
No downvote here but it's that. We're used to people talking about a place that doesn't exist usually so we're touchy about it.
But the law is crazy, unconstitutional and would start a tit-for-tat form of legislating that would completely delegitimize whatever legitimacy the government has left.
Note, the legislature is weird. It meets every other year, is basically a second job. Not sure Cali's professionalization of politics is better, but something has to give.
But the law is crazy, unconstitutional and would start a tit-for-tat form of legislating that would completely delegitimize whatever legitimacy the government has left.
Note, the legislature is weird. It meets every other year, is basically a second job. Not sure Cali's professionalization of politics is better, but something has to give.
> Note, the legislature is weird. It meets every other year, is basically a second job.
IIRC, biennial sessions used to be extremely common.
IIRC, biennial sessions used to be extremely common.
Back when state population was measured in the tens of thousands.
> Back when state population was measured in the tens of thousands.
Why would you think that? It's not true.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-policy/state-experience...
> One reason for the change was the resurgence of state legislative power in the middle of the 20th century. Legislatures’ growing role in state government can be measured by the shift from biennial to annual legislative sessions. In 1940 only four state legislatures held annual sessions—and Alabama's legislature met only once every four years. In 2011, only four states still have biennial sessions—Montana, Nevada, North Dakota and Texas. Two changes came recently: Arkansas with its first annual session in 2009, and Oregon with its first in 2011.
In 1940, 34 states had populations of 1 million+ and only one state had a population of less than 100k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
Why would you think that? It's not true.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/fiscal-policy/state-experience...
> One reason for the change was the resurgence of state legislative power in the middle of the 20th century. Legislatures’ growing role in state government can be measured by the shift from biennial to annual legislative sessions. In 1940 only four state legislatures held annual sessions—and Alabama's legislature met only once every four years. In 2011, only four states still have biennial sessions—Montana, Nevada, North Dakota and Texas. Two changes came recently: Arkansas with its first annual session in 2009, and Oregon with its first in 2011.
In 1940, 34 states had populations of 1 million+ and only one state had a population of less than 100k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
I find it curious that the law itself allows for civil suits. Why aren't these just criminal prosecutions?
I think the law is built as sort of a convoluted legal Rube Goldberg machine to sneak around existing case law about abortions, so all of these weird constructions are to avoid doing something that's already been ruled unconstitutional.
It's a legal trick to prevent federal courts from immediately ruling the law unconstitutional.
It is certainly the end of medical privacy in the US, but it may even be the end of the Supremacy Clause, which gives the federal government the ability to pass laws that override state laws.
It's difficult to overstate how much of a threat this law is to the US Constitution.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/meet-the-legal-st...
It is certainly the end of medical privacy in the US, but it may even be the end of the Supremacy Clause, which gives the federal government the ability to pass laws that override state laws.
It's difficult to overstate how much of a threat this law is to the US Constitution.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/meet-the-legal-st...
The best suggestion I heard for fighting this would be to have Massachusetts or some other deep blue state copy and paste this law to get around the 2nd amendment.
Edit to add because I guess it wasn't obvious enough: The strategy would force the Supreme Court to quickly strike down both laws.
Edit to add because I guess it wasn't obvious enough: The strategy would force the Supreme Court to quickly strike down both laws.
I'm not sure how those two are equivalent. The second ammendment is in the literal text of the Constitution, whereas abortion is derived (as far as I can tell) solely from case law.
AIUI, Roe v Wade says that abortion rights flow fairly directly from the 14th amendment.
"Directly" is a strong word. It's an interpretation which assumes there is such a thing as a right to an abortion such that the states would then be violating by passing legislation.
Now, I am not of the opinion that something has to be explicitly protected in the constitution for it to be a right. I prefer to assume a limited view of what behavior government has the authority to limit. However, if something is not explicitly protected in the constitution, then it is at least up for debate.
There's procedural implications for this distinction as well: the Supreme Court can overturn its prior precedent (as Brown v. Board of Education overturned Plessy v. Ferguson). But the Supreme Court cannot overturn the text of the Constitution itself. Only an amendment by Congress can do that.
EDIT: Just to clarify, that procedural distinction means that the Supreme Court could uphold the Texas law while overturning a similar law restricting gun ownership without contradiction.
Now, I am not of the opinion that something has to be explicitly protected in the constitution for it to be a right. I prefer to assume a limited view of what behavior government has the authority to limit. However, if something is not explicitly protected in the constitution, then it is at least up for debate.
There's procedural implications for this distinction as well: the Supreme Court can overturn its prior precedent (as Brown v. Board of Education overturned Plessy v. Ferguson). But the Supreme Court cannot overturn the text of the Constitution itself. Only an amendment by Congress can do that.
EDIT: Just to clarify, that procedural distinction means that the Supreme Court could uphold the Texas law while overturning a similar law restricting gun ownership without contradiction.
The second amendment is neither clear nor absolute. For example the constitutionality of an assault weapons ban is still unclear. Your point would stand if Massachusetts banned the right to bear arms. However, if they banned everything but single shot rifles, it comes back to precedent. Like the Texas law, it's obviously unconstitutional based on precedent, but not obviously unconstitutional based on the text of the amendment alone.
All laws require some interpretation in their enforcement, but this is pretty blatant equivocation.
Aside from some archaic language, the second amendment is actually fairly clear. It is clearly talking about guns, and the phrase "shall not be infringed" is fairly strong, clear language.
On the other hand, the 14th amendment say nothing about abortion, and there's no reason to suggest the authors of that amendment had abortion in mind when they wrote it.
That does not mean that such a right does not exist, or that it needs to be explicitly mentioned in the Constitution to receive protection, but any judge who wants to assert that such a right exists is going to have to do a lot more work than one who wants to assert the existence of an individual right to own guns, even "assault weapons" (which is a largely nonsense category anyway).
Aside from some archaic language, the second amendment is actually fairly clear. It is clearly talking about guns, and the phrase "shall not be infringed" is fairly strong, clear language.
On the other hand, the 14th amendment say nothing about abortion, and there's no reason to suggest the authors of that amendment had abortion in mind when they wrote it.
That does not mean that such a right does not exist, or that it needs to be explicitly mentioned in the Constitution to receive protection, but any judge who wants to assert that such a right exists is going to have to do a lot more work than one who wants to assert the existence of an individual right to own guns, even "assault weapons" (which is a largely nonsense category anyway).
I thought about that and wonder if that still leaves us with an utterly broken country anyway.
Because states can't prosecute it, they already lost that one before the Supreme Court. So the hack is that the state isn't the one enforcing it.
Because abortion is a constitutional right in the US, and it would immediately be enjoined as a flagrant violation of constitutional rights (at least pending the current court's likely, but not certain, overruling of Roe v Wade and Casey).
Instead, this is a way to get around constitutionality since it's not the government who is violating the constitution. Never mind all of other constitutional bits about due process that are being horribly trampled on (such as allowing people to sue without standing...).
Instead, this is a way to get around constitutionality since it's not the government who is violating the constitution. Never mind all of other constitutional bits about due process that are being horribly trampled on (such as allowing people to sue without standing...).
This just shifts enforcement to the courts, which are part of the government.
Would you care to go on record as asserting that limits can not be placed on Constitutional rights?
I think we are seeing citizens deputized to enforce laws and norms in other places in society too. It already happens on social media. It's also happening offline, folks are losing their jobs over just expressing opinions. Citizens without standing enforcing edicts on others. It truly worries me. This isn't exactly what you meant, but its something I think is related which I've been thinking about.
"Deputized" has a precise meaning in this context: the state is substituting private citizens for officials in order to commit official acts.
Individuals shaming other individuals for "expressing opinions" are not "deputized," since there's no official act. We can talk on and on about whether it's it's good or not, but it's nowhere near as dangerous as states end-running civil liberties by appointing private citizens to do their dirty work.
Individuals shaming other individuals for "expressing opinions" are not "deputized," since there's no official act. We can talk on and on about whether it's it's good or not, but it's nowhere near as dangerous as states end-running civil liberties by appointing private citizens to do their dirty work.
It's becoming more of a trend. There were quite a few such sites after Jan 6th, for example and I believe a subreddit or two devoted to such.
That’s the core value proposition of being a paid informant.
Similar to what East Germany had were IIRC 1 third of their citizens spied and report activities of everyone else.
Yeah. I’m against abortion but that kind of thing is HOA levels of unacceptable.
Look to the ADA for inspiration.
> Look to the ADA for inspiration
Don’t think it’s comparable. If I have perfect vision, I don’t think I can sue a site for being unusable by blind people. Actual injury must be shown.
Don’t think it’s comparable. If I have perfect vision, I don’t think I can sue a site for being unusable by blind people. Actual injury must be shown.
California has a cottage legal industry whereby lawyers will file Unruh Act accessibility claims against businesses. There’s a very low standard on Unruh claims, to the point that some lawyers will work with the same plaintiff repeatedly looking for things like being inches off on doorways etc.
Similarly, Prop 65 allows for direct, private civil suits. Although it has seen some reforms in recent years, it took some really egregious settlements before that happened.
TL;DR: You can thank Californians for importing their crappy legal theories into Texas.
Similarly, Prop 65 allows for direct, private civil suits. Although it has seen some reforms in recent years, it took some really egregious settlements before that happened.
TL;DR: You can thank Californians for importing their crappy legal theories into Texas.
Which Californians were responsible for the new Texas laws?
> Pro-abortion advocates tried for over a week to overwhelm the website with traffic and fake tips," Schwartz wrote in a blog post. "When they failed, keyboard warriors harassed GoDaddy to take down our site."
I'm finding the sneering at "keyboard warriors" really amusing here. How is both the creation of this website, or the anonymous tips themselves anything but "keyboard warrioring"?
I'm finding the sneering at "keyboard warriors" really amusing here. How is both the creation of this website, or the anonymous tips themselves anything but "keyboard warrioring"?
I am confused by much of this.
If the information collected is public, why is this a not equivalent to other politically motivated data collection? (Or, is the information collected not public?)
There are sites that collect, collate, cross reference and publish individuals' OSINT repeatedly on various political topics. (voting records, financial contributions, gun ownership, financials, etc.)
If the information collected is public, why is this a not equivalent to other politically motivated data collection? (Or, is the information collected not public?)
There are sites that collect, collate, cross reference and publish individuals' OSINT repeatedly on various political topics. (voting records, financial contributions, gun ownership, financials, etc.)
Sure, but this is really different than some vague mostly public demographic info. If you posted any of the the kind of information this site was collecting on a message board it would be labeled as some combination of stalking, harassment, and doxxing.
This whole thing seems absolutely nuts.
This whole thing seems absolutely nuts.
I was confused by it too, because I thought privately run tip line contact forms were relatively common, but I changed my mind after building this Google query. The only notable private organization doing it seems to be CrimeStoppers, and they are a de facto public organization due to how closely they work with police and major local media. So this does seem to be a legal innovation and it makes sense that there would be organizations and vendors having to react to it for the first time.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tip+line+contact+form+-%22po...
https://www.google.com/search?q=tip+line+contact+form+-%22po...
Why would who got what medical treatment and who helped with that be public information?
Just like if you filed a report against a neighbor for domestic violence, you’re allowed to report crime on Citizen style or Neighborhood app or WhatsApp groups. Are any of these things public information?
> (Or, is the information collected not public?)
It's not public. The site was soliciting PII "tips" about abortions. Ostensibly someone might tweet out their address, phone number, name, and having an illegal abortion, in which case it would be public. But in this case, the vast majority of tips aren't going to be public.
The difference with most OSINT stuff is that the information is public in some way or valuable to the public.
Categorically, the site would actually be violating many privacy laws in many states, including things like GDPR. It's definitely a cross-border legal minefield anyways, so it makes a lot of sense why it would be against the terms of service to operate a site specifically to test these boundaries. Sure, it may be a Texas law, but where are the servers? Where are the people submitting the information? Where are the people currently located with information being submitted about? Etc.
It's not public. The site was soliciting PII "tips" about abortions. Ostensibly someone might tweet out their address, phone number, name, and having an illegal abortion, in which case it would be public. But in this case, the vast majority of tips aren't going to be public.
The difference with most OSINT stuff is that the information is public in some way or valuable to the public.
Categorically, the site would actually be violating many privacy laws in many states, including things like GDPR. It's definitely a cross-border legal minefield anyways, so it makes a lot of sense why it would be against the terms of service to operate a site specifically to test these boundaries. Sure, it may be a Texas law, but where are the servers? Where are the people submitting the information? Where are the people currently located with information being submitted about? Etc.
[deleted]
Proof that freedom of speech doesn't exist on the internet, short of launching a new AS.
Sometimes I wonder if the US government should offer some kind of basic web hosting to citizens to guarantee this fundamental right.
Sometimes I wonder if the US government should offer some kind of basic web hosting to citizens to guarantee this fundamental right.
The fundamental right you are referring to comes from the First Amendment, which begins, "Congress shall make no law...".
Practically speaking, this means the government cannot penalize you for what you say. Aside from the fact that what this website is doing is not really speech (it is acting as a data controller), they aren't being penalized by the government, but by the hosting providers.
There is no violation of first amendment rights here. Just the (mistaken) nebulous concept of "Free Speech".
Practically speaking, this means the government cannot penalize you for what you say. Aside from the fact that what this website is doing is not really speech (it is acting as a data controller), they aren't being penalized by the government, but by the hosting providers.
There is no violation of first amendment rights here. Just the (mistaken) nebulous concept of "Free Speech".
If what is was also what ought to be, it wouldn’t be worth mentioning.
Personally I don’t have more than a nebulous idea of what I think the shape of free speech ought to be: {fire in a crowded theatre, parasite medicine during a viral pandemic, homeopathic cancer remedies in general} seem like harmful things to allow, but the reason society (collectively rather than just the individuals within it) should allow and encourage free speech is to find the stuff where we’re all incorrectly confident what is and isn’t true. It combats groupthink.
Likewise, who should that freedom bind? Just the government, nobody else? That’s great where communication is mediated by public-owned forums, public-owned post, and public-owned telephone networks, but most communication is now mediated my private companies.
Compelling all private companies to be content-neutral in the same way as the government? I don’t see the downsides, but it is a radical change and I am a very long way from any form of law let alone constitutional.
But the point is, this is about what isn’t, not what is.
Personally I don’t have more than a nebulous idea of what I think the shape of free speech ought to be: {fire in a crowded theatre, parasite medicine during a viral pandemic, homeopathic cancer remedies in general} seem like harmful things to allow, but the reason society (collectively rather than just the individuals within it) should allow and encourage free speech is to find the stuff where we’re all incorrectly confident what is and isn’t true. It combats groupthink.
Likewise, who should that freedom bind? Just the government, nobody else? That’s great where communication is mediated by public-owned forums, public-owned post, and public-owned telephone networks, but most communication is now mediated my private companies.
Compelling all private companies to be content-neutral in the same way as the government? I don’t see the downsides, but it is a radical change and I am a very long way from any form of law let alone constitutional.
But the point is, this is about what isn’t, not what is.
The government isn't a private organization in that only the government can put people in jail. This is what freedom of speech is really about: the ability to say just about anything and not be fined or imprisoned.
But it has never guaranteed that you'd have a platform from which to say those things... which is the same guarantee you get from Facebook or anywhere else.
Goverment: no guarantee of a place to speak, cannot put you in jail because of the First Amendment.
Facebook: no quarantee of a place to speak, cannot put you in jail because they're not the government.
Also, it's unclear what legal mechanism could even be put in place to prevent companies from banning and censoring. And it's fraught with problems because you're trying to guarantee a platform, something the First Amendment never intended. Are companies allowed to delete comments? What if they're old comments? Do you have to keep them forever? Who pays for that? Can you delete porn? The First Amendment allows you to say "f--k" over and over and over as long as you're not threatening. Can you imagine people on, say, a religious board posting that over and over? And the organization wasn't allowed to censor it?
It's a massive can of worms.
Finally, on my blog I want the freedom to delete any comments for any reason or for no reason.
But it has never guaranteed that you'd have a platform from which to say those things... which is the same guarantee you get from Facebook or anywhere else.
Goverment: no guarantee of a place to speak, cannot put you in jail because of the First Amendment.
Facebook: no quarantee of a place to speak, cannot put you in jail because they're not the government.
Also, it's unclear what legal mechanism could even be put in place to prevent companies from banning and censoring. And it's fraught with problems because you're trying to guarantee a platform, something the First Amendment never intended. Are companies allowed to delete comments? What if they're old comments? Do you have to keep them forever? Who pays for that? Can you delete porn? The First Amendment allows you to say "f--k" over and over and over as long as you're not threatening. Can you imagine people on, say, a religious board posting that over and over? And the organization wasn't allowed to censor it?
It's a massive can of worms.
Finally, on my blog I want the freedom to delete any comments for any reason or for no reason.
> The government isn't a private organization in that only the government can put people in jail. This is what freedom of speech is really about: the ability to say just about anything and not be fined or imprisoned.
Here is a deliberately hyperbolic scenario to illustrate the problem:
If a future government sold all their land to private interests who have opinions about what can and cannot be said, then undesirable people have nowhere to stand while doing the speaking, and those private entities can punish those they don’t like thanks to trespass laws.
This feels like it would de-facto remove freedom of speech even if the government itself passed no new laws.
> It's a massive can of worms.
Agreed 100%, that’s the point of my disclaimers about not knowing enough to have strong, well-defined opinions, nor having relevant skills, both near the start and end of my previous comment.
Here is a deliberately hyperbolic scenario to illustrate the problem:
If a future government sold all their land to private interests who have opinions about what can and cannot be said, then undesirable people have nowhere to stand while doing the speaking, and those private entities can punish those they don’t like thanks to trespass laws.
This feels like it would de-facto remove freedom of speech even if the government itself passed no new laws.
> It's a massive can of worms.
Agreed 100%, that’s the point of my disclaimers about not knowing enough to have strong, well-defined opinions, nor having relevant skills, both near the start and end of my previous comment.
> If a future government sold all their land to private interests who have opinions about what can and cannot be said, then undesirable people have nowhere to stand while doing the speaking, and those private entities can punish those they don’t like thanks to trespass laws.
The flipside would be people having the right to protest on your private property whenever they felt like it.
Or, back in techland, the right to say whatever they wanted on your blog's comment section.
I hear ya, but it's going to be a massive challenge to come up with a cure that's A) Constitutional and B) not worse than the disease.
The flipside would be people having the right to protest on your private property whenever they felt like it.
Or, back in techland, the right to say whatever they wanted on your blog's comment section.
I hear ya, but it's going to be a massive challenge to come up with a cure that's A) Constitutional and B) not worse than the disease.
If you have to resort to that degree of hyperbole to make the problem seem problematic, it only suggests that it isn't much of a problem in practical reality.
Principles should apply even when exposed to the most extreme (physically possible) hyperbole, IMO.
The problem is the principle is hypocritical.
The deliberately hyperbolic scenario which results from what's being proposed here - that platforms be forced to publish all legal content regardless of their intent - is that governments declare all websites to be platforms, and thus governments directly control all online communication and publishing, and then simply declare any speech they dislike to be illegal.
In essence, what is being argued is that in order to protect free speech we cannot trust private citizens or any communities they form to exercise freedom of association. Yet the same community that considers everything else that governments do a violation of their fundamental civil liberties and a naked and obvious pretext towards rounding up dissidents for the gulags seems to implicitly trust the same governments to act as fair and impartial arbiters of online speech, to the point that they consider giving up what were (until some point in 2016) considered essential liberties to be a necessity.
If the scenario where governments cede all of their authority and property to private interests you mentioned earlier is reasonable enough to be actionable, then this scenario which at least describes things that governments have historically actually done, should be even more actionable.
Yet, given the choice of Facebook not having secret police, and it being possible to simply create other networks on the open internet if you disagree with Facebook's terms, and Facebook having secret police, and the creation or moderation of any new network being directly overseen by governments, and terms of service being enforced by the state's monopoly on violence, people would rather Facebook have secret police.
The deliberately hyperbolic scenario which results from what's being proposed here - that platforms be forced to publish all legal content regardless of their intent - is that governments declare all websites to be platforms, and thus governments directly control all online communication and publishing, and then simply declare any speech they dislike to be illegal.
In essence, what is being argued is that in order to protect free speech we cannot trust private citizens or any communities they form to exercise freedom of association. Yet the same community that considers everything else that governments do a violation of their fundamental civil liberties and a naked and obvious pretext towards rounding up dissidents for the gulags seems to implicitly trust the same governments to act as fair and impartial arbiters of online speech, to the point that they consider giving up what were (until some point in 2016) considered essential liberties to be a necessity.
If the scenario where governments cede all of their authority and property to private interests you mentioned earlier is reasonable enough to be actionable, then this scenario which at least describes things that governments have historically actually done, should be even more actionable.
Yet, given the choice of Facebook not having secret police, and it being possible to simply create other networks on the open internet if you disagree with Facebook's terms, and Facebook having secret police, and the creation or moderation of any new network being directly overseen by governments, and terms of service being enforced by the state's monopoly on violence, people would rather Facebook have secret police.
You can always host it yourself. Are you unable to purchase a computer or rent a static IP address?
Edit: Actually, with Tor the static IP should be unnecessary. All you need is a computer and an Internet connection.
Edit: Actually, with Tor the static IP should be unnecessary. All you need is a computer and an Internet connection.
> You can always host it yourself. Are you unable to purchase a computer or rent a static IP address?
I'm starting to think that can't be counted on as a viable option. It's one thing to deny someone access to a particular platform (e.g. Facebook), it's quite another to deny access to basic infrastructure services (e.g. DNS) for something that isn't actually illegal. The former should not utility-like access rules, but the latter probably should.
I'm starting to think that can't be counted on as a viable option. It's one thing to deny someone access to a particular platform (e.g. Facebook), it's quite another to deny access to basic infrastructure services (e.g. DNS) for something that isn't actually illegal. The former should not utility-like access rules, but the latter probably should.
That still places you at the mercy of your Internet provider.
And that is why my position on this debate is that Internet access- the pipes, the ability to send data from one computer to another that requested the data- should be treated like a utility. I still think a site should be able to deny your request for data as they see fit though
[deleted]
Fundamental right to web hosting?
Internet access is proposed as a universal human right by notable authorities and organisations.
E.g., https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2016/11/07/the-inter...
E.g., https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2016/11/07/the-inter...
More charitable interpretation:
The Internet is the public square these days. Imagine if your town's public spaces were all owned by private businesses and you couldn't use them if those private businesses didn't like your message, skin color, gender, ethnicity, religion, or face. That's what I'm afraid of: The enclosure and destruction of the only place modern people have to be heard.
I'm not proposing a solution. There won't be a very easy solution.
The Internet is the public square these days. Imagine if your town's public spaces were all owned by private businesses and you couldn't use them if those private businesses didn't like your message, skin color, gender, ethnicity, religion, or face. That's what I'm afraid of: The enclosure and destruction of the only place modern people have to be heard.
I'm not proposing a solution. There won't be a very easy solution.
> Imagine if your town's public spaces were all owned by private businesses and you couldn't use them if those private businesses didn't like your message, skin color, gender, ethnicity, religion, or face.
It's called the mall and that is basically the rule. You can be asked to leave for no reason at all or be hit with a trespassing charge. A public square is actually public, owned by the public, occupied by the public.
It's called the mall and that is basically the rule. You can be asked to leave for no reason at all or be hit with a trespassing charge. A public square is actually public, owned by the public, occupied by the public.
> It's called the mall and that is basically the rule.
That depends on the state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
That depends on the state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
> It's called the mall and that is basically the rule.
Depends on the state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
> A state can prohibit the private owner of a shopping center from using state trespass law to exclude peaceful expressive activity in the open areas of the shopping center.
[snip]
> This holding was possible because California's constitution contains an affirmative right of free speech which has been liberally construed by the Supreme Court of California, while the federal constitution's First Amendment contains only a negative command to Congress to not abridge the freedom of speech. This distinction was significant because the U.S. Supreme Court had already held that under the federal First Amendment, there was no implied right of free speech within a private shopping center.
However, there's further limits to what a private company can do to free speech:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama
> Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946), was a case decided by the US Supreme Court, which ruled that a state trespassing statute could not be used to prevent the distribution of religious materials on a town's sidewalk even though the sidewalk was part of a privately-owned company town.
[snip]
> In its conclusion, the Court stated that it was essentially weighing the rights of property owners against the rights of citizens to enjoy freedom of press and religion. The Court noted that the rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights occupy a preferred position. Accordingly, the Court held that the property rights of a private entity are not sufficient to justify the restriction of a community of citizens' fundamental rights and liberties.
Depends on the state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
> A state can prohibit the private owner of a shopping center from using state trespass law to exclude peaceful expressive activity in the open areas of the shopping center.
[snip]
> This holding was possible because California's constitution contains an affirmative right of free speech which has been liberally construed by the Supreme Court of California, while the federal constitution's First Amendment contains only a negative command to Congress to not abridge the freedom of speech. This distinction was significant because the U.S. Supreme Court had already held that under the federal First Amendment, there was no implied right of free speech within a private shopping center.
However, there's further limits to what a private company can do to free speech:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama
> Marsh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946), was a case decided by the US Supreme Court, which ruled that a state trespassing statute could not be used to prevent the distribution of religious materials on a town's sidewalk even though the sidewalk was part of a privately-owned company town.
[snip]
> In its conclusion, the Court stated that it was essentially weighing the rights of property owners against the rights of citizens to enjoy freedom of press and religion. The Court noted that the rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights occupy a preferred position. Accordingly, the Court held that the property rights of a private entity are not sufficient to justify the restriction of a community of citizens' fundamental rights and liberties.
@mlsa wrote "all", not just the most dominant one. Add every park and every high street on top of the malls.
Web hosting is so cheap it's practically already free. If you just want to toss up a webpage there are a number of providers that will do it for free. Choose a cheap domain name and your total costs are a few bucks a year unless it somehow becomes exceptionally popular.
As a point of order, registrars are also refusing service. If you want a simple, non-controversial, non scalable website, yes, hosting one solo is really easy. As soon as you have something that you plan to scale it becomes nearly impossible to 'go it alone'.
A web hosting that guarantees that the fundamental right to free speech can be exercised over the internet.
The speech isn't the issue here. The problem is the collecting of data on third persons.
You might believe these providers looked through their ToS in search for a reason but I hope you agree with me that there is a difference between freedom of expression and data collection.
You might believe these providers looked through their ToS in search for a reason but I hope you agree with me that there is a difference between freedom of expression and data collection.