Apple fires engineering manager for allegedly leaking information(theverge.com)
theverge.com
Apple fires engineering manager for allegedly leaking information
https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/9/22666049/apple-fires-senior-engineering-program-manager-ashley-gjovik-for-allegedly-leaking-information
209 comments
Here is her NLRB complaint [1]. It seems fine to me if she wants to get her story out via her own site or press or whatever. It can be hard to "go viral" and you have to put a lot of effort behind it. That said, making yourself a public figure can be tough too, so I hope she's ready with facts.
This summary from her website doesn't make Apple sound all that terrible in my opinion:
> I raised issues about workplace safety in March, upon which Apple subjected me to a nonconsensual sexism investigation on my behalf. Then I faced retaliation from my managers, ER, & HR. I continued to raise my workplace safety concerns as well as my concerns about the employee relations processes at Apple. This led to a second, much larger investigation that I actually requested this time. However, before we could finish gathering & reviewing the evidence, Apple forced me onto indefinite paid administrative leave.
[1] https://foiaonline.gov/foiaonline/api/request/downloadFile/N... (PDF download)
This summary from her website doesn't make Apple sound all that terrible in my opinion:
> I raised issues about workplace safety in March, upon which Apple subjected me to a nonconsensual sexism investigation on my behalf. Then I faced retaliation from my managers, ER, & HR. I continued to raise my workplace safety concerns as well as my concerns about the employee relations processes at Apple. This led to a second, much larger investigation that I actually requested this time. However, before we could finish gathering & reviewing the evidence, Apple forced me onto indefinite paid administrative leave.
[1] https://foiaonline.gov/foiaonline/api/request/downloadFile/N... (PDF download)
> This summary from her website doesn't make Apple sound all that terrible in my opinion:
Looking past her editorializing, the Apple communications she leaked aren't really unreasonable. She raised concerns about harassment, so Apple started an investigation. She then complains that the investigation was "nonconsensual", despite being the one to raise the concerns. She then requested a second investigation, which Apple started. The part about being placed on administrative leave is particularly confusing, because this article says that she requested to be placed on the administrative leave.
Her Tweets are hyper-dramatic. She calls her Employee Relations contacts "Employee Retaliation" and even insinuates that she thinks Apple might assault her at her home after they requested a meeting:
> Any bets if I get a literal knock on my physical door from #Apple today?
> Hey #Apple, "This feels a little like witness intimidation. I let @NLRB know." Love, Ashley
> Clutches panic button & Mace while still laying on floor pondering the brutality of U.S. capitalism...
Source: https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1436080433175818259
Looking past her editorializing, the Apple communications she leaked aren't really unreasonable. She raised concerns about harassment, so Apple started an investigation. She then complains that the investigation was "nonconsensual", despite being the one to raise the concerns. She then requested a second investigation, which Apple started. The part about being placed on administrative leave is particularly confusing, because this article says that she requested to be placed on the administrative leave.
Her Tweets are hyper-dramatic. She calls her Employee Relations contacts "Employee Retaliation" and even insinuates that she thinks Apple might assault her at her home after they requested a meeting:
> Any bets if I get a literal knock on my physical door from #Apple today?
> Hey #Apple, "This feels a little like witness intimidation. I let @NLRB know." Love, Ashley
> Clutches panic button & Mace while still laying on floor pondering the brutality of U.S. capitalism...
Source: https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1436080433175818259
Yeah. I think she has real concerns that need to be addressed to make her whole. I'm not sure this is "the world needs to know"-level stuff though. Good on her for speaking her mind anyway. The "open kimono" stuff sounded bad to me (edit: depends on the context [2]).
At the same time, she is giving these veiled threats to Apple while an investigation appears to be underway,
> .... also makes me wonder what would happen if I shared the incidents [redacted] investigated and said weren't "policy violations" like [redacted] [1]
I can see why Apple would want to part ways with that. It's standard for everyone to keep their mouths shut while an investigation is underway. If you don't understand and follow that contract then you're tainting the investigation.
[1] https://www.ashleygjovik.com/uploads/1/3/7/0/137008339/publi...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28478276
At the same time, she is giving these veiled threats to Apple while an investigation appears to be underway,
> .... also makes me wonder what would happen if I shared the incidents [redacted] investigated and said weren't "policy violations" like [redacted] [1]
I can see why Apple would want to part ways with that. It's standard for everyone to keep their mouths shut while an investigation is underway. If you don't understand and follow that contract then you're tainting the investigation.
[1] https://www.ashleygjovik.com/uploads/1/3/7/0/137008339/publi...
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28478276
The "open kimono" thing is inexcusable in 2021, but I don't think it's anything more than someone cluelessly using an outdated catchphrase. It was semi-common business lingo in the early 2000s in certain circles: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
Self-help guru Tim Ferriss even copyrighted the phrase and made a big deal about publicizing a $10,000 seminar in his "Opening the Kimono" event in 2011: https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/
Then the phrase quickly died, as it should have. Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
Self-help guru Tim Ferriss even copyrighted the phrase and made a big deal about publicizing a $10,000 seminar in his "Opening the Kimono" event in 2011: https://tim.blog/2011/04/12/opening-the-kimono/
Then the phrase quickly died, as it should have. Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
> Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
Yes, I can imagine oblivious men repeating it if they did not realize it could be interpreted sexually. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved. It sounds like that is what was happening. Then she threatened to make her case more widely known and Apple decided, "alright, it's better if you're not employed here while you pursue that."
Yes, I can imagine oblivious men repeating it if they did not realize it could be interpreted sexually. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved. It sounds like that is what was happening. Then she threatened to make her case more widely known and Apple decided, "alright, it's better if you're not employed here while you pursue that."
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This thread is political correctness madness gone wild.
The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sexist or racist. It literally means providing transparency to internal affairs.
> Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
"Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc." -- Steve Jobs, Xerox Parc, 1979
Under the Xerox Parc kimono, he found a prototype of the modern computer mouse.
Ashley's source for why this is offensive and my source for why it's not are the same (from her screenshot): https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
Investopedia says the term is "offensive" but the only reason they cite is an NYT article from 1998:
> New York Times reporter Stephen Greenhouse became one of the first to draw broad attention to the term when he noted that marketers at Microsoft (MSFT) had embraced it. At the time, he did caution that the use of open kimono may have originally indicated a disrespectful attitude toward the Japanese businessmen who were buying American companies.
It wasn't even disrespectful because of race, it was because Japanese businessmen were buying lots of American companies and doing due diligence. Also, kimonos are worn by men, women, and children.
In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.
The phrase comes from Japanese<->American business relationships in the 70s through 90s. It is not sexist or racist. It literally means providing transparency to internal affairs.
> Strange to hear an Apple manager using it, but I wouldn't assume they were implying anything or had ill intent.
"Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc." -- Steve Jobs, Xerox Parc, 1979
Under the Xerox Parc kimono, he found a prototype of the modern computer mouse.
Ashley's source for why this is offensive and my source for why it's not are the same (from her screenshot): https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
Investopedia says the term is "offensive" but the only reason they cite is an NYT article from 1998:
> New York Times reporter Stephen Greenhouse became one of the first to draw broad attention to the term when he noted that marketers at Microsoft (MSFT) had embraced it. At the time, he did caution that the use of open kimono may have originally indicated a disrespectful attitude toward the Japanese businessmen who were buying American companies.
It wasn't even disrespectful because of race, it was because Japanese businessmen were buying lots of American companies and doing due diligence. Also, kimonos are worn by men, women, and children.
In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.
> This thread is political correctness madness gone wild.
The purpose of political correctness is to go mad. Its whole point is to control others.
The purpose of political correctness is to go mad. Its whole point is to control others.
> In reality, Investopedia is probably labeling it "offensive" for people like me who know it is not offensive, but are unaware that using it could lead to problems.
Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Whether something is or not depends on delivery and to whom it's delivered. Clearly "open kimono" does imply nakedness, so if you ask a person to be "open kimono" I can see how someone might be offended by that when just saying "be more open" would serve. I don't know the exact phrasing that this employee found offensive. It could just be a misunderstanding where a manager was saying they need to "open the kimono" on a product, such as by making an API that other people can use to easily interface it.
Nothing is objectively inoffensive. Whether something is or not depends on delivery and to whom it's delivered. Clearly "open kimono" does imply nakedness, so if you ask a person to be "open kimono" I can see how someone might be offended by that when just saying "be more open" would serve. I don't know the exact phrasing that this employee found offensive. It could just be a misunderstanding where a manager was saying they need to "open the kimono" on a product, such as by making an API that other people can use to easily interface it.
> Nothing is objectively inoffensive.
Apparently not.
There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding.
What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did.
From the Slack reaction emojis, and from our own sibling HN comments, we can tell other people also feel grossed out by the "open kimono" phrase. Particularly people who have never heard it before.
The obvious conclusion is that the phrase just doesn't pass the vibe check in 2021, and no additional research is required. It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist or sexist, so anyone that uses it needs to be called out, so we can erase this uncomfortable phrase from the tech lexicon. Problem solved?
The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
Apparently not.
There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding.
What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did.
From the Slack reaction emojis, and from our own sibling HN comments, we can tell other people also feel grossed out by the "open kimono" phrase. Particularly people who have never heard it before.
The obvious conclusion is that the phrase just doesn't pass the vibe check in 2021, and no additional research is required. It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist or sexist, so anyone that uses it needs to be called out, so we can erase this uncomfortable phrase from the tech lexicon. Problem solved?
The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
I'm really having trouble phrasing this because I feel like ultimately we agree, but does passing the vibe check actually matter? Or whose doing the checking?
Cause some may say you haven't passed the vibe check either, as far back as 1999 and at least as recent as 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_n...
It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist, so should we call you out on your usage?
I don't agree, but others might not agree of your classification of the open kinomo phrase either.
Cause some may say you haven't passed the vibe check either, as far back as 1999 and at least as recent as 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_n...
It sounds kind of old and maybe a little racist, so should we call you out on your usage?
I don't agree, but others might not agree of your classification of the open kinomo phrase either.
> does passing the vibe check actually matter? Or whose doing the checking?
> should we call you out on your usage?
You're asking all the right questions.
Lately, it seems that the only thing that matters is passing the vibe check.
Things that surprisingly pass the vibe check:
* "long time no see" or "no can do" -- making fun of broken English (particularly Chinese and Native American)
* "got gypped" -- clearly insulting toward gypsies
* criticism from the "peanut gallery" -- that's a reference to poor seating for black people during the Vaudeville era, which is super racist by any standard
Things that unsurprisingly don't pass the vibe check but should if people were more educated:
* "jimmies" for sprinkles has a pop culture reputation for being racist and people have corrected me for saying it, but actually ice cream sprinkles were just invented by a guy named James
* "niggardly" shares no root with its racist homophone
* "那个" is a filler word that chinese speakers need to be careful with because of the same racist homophone
I get that language is always evolving and the vibe check does matter to lots of people, so I try to accommodate the sensibilities of the masses.
I know that "niggardly" is so uncommon these days that it practically is a racist dog whistle (though it really shouldn't be), so I wouldn't use it in daily speech.
But I also think it would be a shame if all the interesting turns of phrase that have stuck around over the years are intentionally censored and removed until we have nothing but bland language without metaphor or history or anything that could possibly cause offense.
"Opening the kimono" is certainly not a phrase worth censoring. I think you could make a good faith argument that trying to censor it is actually a reflection of racist and sexist American stereotypes about Japanese people.
You're asking all the right questions.
Lately, it seems that the only thing that matters is passing the vibe check.
Things that surprisingly pass the vibe check:
* "long time no see" or "no can do" -- making fun of broken English (particularly Chinese and Native American)
* "got gypped" -- clearly insulting toward gypsies
* criticism from the "peanut gallery" -- that's a reference to poor seating for black people during the Vaudeville era, which is super racist by any standard
Things that unsurprisingly don't pass the vibe check but should if people were more educated:
* "jimmies" for sprinkles has a pop culture reputation for being racist and people have corrected me for saying it, but actually ice cream sprinkles were just invented by a guy named James
* "niggardly" shares no root with its racist homophone
* "那个" is a filler word that chinese speakers need to be careful with because of the same racist homophone
I get that language is always evolving and the vibe check does matter to lots of people, so I try to accommodate the sensibilities of the masses.
I know that "niggardly" is so uncommon these days that it practically is a racist dog whistle (though it really shouldn't be), so I wouldn't use it in daily speech.
But I also think it would be a shame if all the interesting turns of phrase that have stuck around over the years are intentionally censored and removed until we have nothing but bland language without metaphor or history or anything that could possibly cause offense.
"Opening the kimono" is certainly not a phrase worth censoring. I think you could make a good faith argument that trying to censor it is actually a reflection of racist and sexist American stereotypes about Japanese people.
He may have dropped niggardly in there in order to "prove his point" about people creating in-groups and out-groups. Now he's a victim too. It's a common reaction from people who don't want to accept that other people are expressing emotions, and may come from the fact they haven't been allowed to express theirs either. In other words, "Nobody accepted my sadness, why should I accept yours?"
> There's almost 0 chance that managers at Apple got the colloquialism wrong and were using it in any sort of sexual or racist way. And if they were, Ashley would have surely brought it to light. This was not a misunderstanding.
That sounds more like jumping to conclusions than objectivity. We're not going to know the truth on either side of this. The facts are, she felt harmed, reported it, started an investigation, threatened to publicize some details, and was let go.
> What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did.
You think she pretended to be offended in order to raise a stink publicly, thereby risking her job over a false claim? That doesn't pass the smell test for me. More likely is she truthfully felt wronged, wanted it made right, and overstepped herself a bit along the way.
> The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
Not everything's a conspiracy. Quit looking at the world in black and white. People are complex.
That sounds more like jumping to conclusions than objectivity. We're not going to know the truth on either side of this. The facts are, she felt harmed, reported it, started an investigation, threatened to publicize some details, and was let go.
> What happened here is that Ashley thought the term sounded offensive enough to weaponize, and so she did.
You think she pretended to be offended in order to raise a stink publicly, thereby risking her job over a false claim? That doesn't pass the smell test for me. More likely is she truthfully felt wronged, wanted it made right, and overstepped herself a bit along the way.
> The real problem is that adopting such a niggardly view of workplace language leads to precisely the type of in-group/out-group division and discrimination that people like Ashley claim to be fighting against. Of course, if it works, she ends up in the in-group with power because she knows the rules. The in-group is then free to exclude other cultures because they're seen as crude or offensive or somehow "less than" the enlightened rule makers of civil society.
Not everything's a conspiracy. Quit looking at the world in black and white. People are complex.
“Open the kimono” isn’t that another way of saying “open the article of clothing primarily worn by women”? To be honest this is the first time I’ve heard the term but it sounds rather problematic.
Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
Edit: explain downvotes and don’t downvote just because you don’t like the perspective. Sure there are men’s kimonos but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
Why would it be offensive just because random Americans think that "women are the ones that wear kimono"? Even if it were true.
For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
For the puritanical American mind it might be offensive to even imagine nudity, but other than that I really don't get it.
Because the context is American office settings?
Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it.
Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”.
Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away.
This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
Look I don’t make American culture, I’m simply pointing out how a huge chunk of office workers will perceive it.
Anyway, I can tell people can see this perspective, but want to pretend it’s invalid because they don’t like it. those against what they call “cancel” culture then reacting to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”.
Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away.
This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
but ask some random person on the street and ask who wears kimonos and men will not be the answer.
You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".
You're right, the answer is likely to be "Japanese".
> but it sounds rather problematic
Why does it sound problematic?
As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here?
What’s the point of trying to find offense?
Why does it sound problematic?
As others have already explained: it’s not an offensive phrase and kimonos are certainly not most commonly associated with women, so what’s your goal here?
What’s the point of trying to find offense?
Kimonos are not historically gendered clothing.
They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype).
There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in.
Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.
They’re basically t-shirts. The cut differs on men and women as a function of fashion, suitability to body type, and some formal rules (e.g. wearing a family crest historically made it a different kimono subtype).
There was a period during the late 20th century where kimonos were only in fashion for women (men wore western styles except at weddings) but both historically and presently kimonos are for men and women. Random people on the street who say differently are probably just misinformed about a culture they don’t live in.
Tying it back to the phrase used… this cultural dissonance is why it’s generally difficult to import phrases/metaphors from foreign cultures: people simply misunderstand you.
It's both racist and sexist that Ashley thinks kimonos are female attire and that opening a kimono is sexual.
If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.
If your mental image of a kimono wearer is a vulnerable Japanese woman, as it may be if you are an American that's still reverberating with echos of WW2 racism, then Ashley's disgust makes some sense.
Why would "open kimono" be "inexcusable"? It just means "without hiding anything". Like almost any abstract expression, you're taking something concrete and using it in an abstract sense, it doesn't mean she should actually be naked, even as an innuendo.
I really don't understand why it would be offensive. Is it because kimonos are (originally) an "ethnic" (i.e. non-American) thing? Or is it related to the American panic about nudity?
I really don't understand why it would be offensive. Is it because kimonos are (originally) an "ethnic" (i.e. non-American) thing? Or is it related to the American panic about nudity?
It's because some have deemed that anything that has origins from a foreign culture is off limits.
The one that gets me the most is someone taking the phrase "Chinese wall" as being offensive. The phrase means a hard separation of business units in some companies, such as analysts evaluating companies and investment banking units trying to win business from those companies.
I always took it to mean "Well, there is one country that's rather famous for having an incredibly extensive barrier that serves to separate 2 areas." I literally have no understanding of how this could even be considered racist, if anything it's praising an incredible human feat and using it metaphorically.
The one that gets me the most is someone taking the phrase "Chinese wall" as being offensive. The phrase means a hard separation of business units in some companies, such as analysts evaluating companies and investment banking units trying to win business from those companies.
I always took it to mean "Well, there is one country that's rather famous for having an incredibly extensive barrier that serves to separate 2 areas." I literally have no understanding of how this could even be considered racist, if anything it's praising an incredible human feat and using it metaphorically.
You do realize that kimonos are not exclusively worn by women? Hard to see how that's sexisme without that misconception.
This whole affair seems like a one way ticket out of ‘traditional’ corporate employment for life, so I’d say Ashley would be smart to be setting up alternative revenue streams—-media appearances, book deals, etc.
I don’t agree with her methods, but I do admire the commitment to doubling down.
I don’t agree with her methods, but I do admire the commitment to doubling down.
She's got a huge website[1] organizing every tweet, every hashtag, every document, every bit of media attention adjacent to this story. Regardless of what you think of the topic itself, you have to admire the single-minded focus on media exposure and self-amplification. This is an exceptional, master-level ability to get people talking about yourself. I'm kind of in awe.
1: https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
1: https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
They say that Apple only hires the most dedicated people.
She’s attending law school: https://law.scu.edu/news/ashley-gjovik-jd-22-quoted-in-the-t...
This is one tweet that I saw on Twitter that looked actually bad https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1426014545202479108
> Her entire social media presence appears to be built around capitalizing on these stories
Or, she is focused on shedding light on bad behavior of others and she was actually bullied and picked on by some twats at Apple and she wants consequences?
So in the end, I don't understand why it would be a problem to create a website for news coverage and tweet highlights. If she feels she's been wronged, it's okay to fight back, even if she was employed by Apple. What's wrong with that?
On this site, people always say "bad Apple" ("bad Google", etc) behaving badly and abusing its power. Yet, when an employee comes out with complaints, we pretend it is not okay to complain about your employer?
I don't know who is in the wrong here, we have seen both dramatic employees that take offense in everything innocent, but we have also seen corporations covering up bullying and abusive behavior. Which one is it in this case? I don't know yet, I bet you don't either.
> Her entire social media presence appears to be built around capitalizing on these stories
Or, she is focused on shedding light on bad behavior of others and she was actually bullied and picked on by some twats at Apple and she wants consequences?
So in the end, I don't understand why it would be a problem to create a website for news coverage and tweet highlights. If she feels she's been wronged, it's okay to fight back, even if she was employed by Apple. What's wrong with that?
On this site, people always say "bad Apple" ("bad Google", etc) behaving badly and abusing its power. Yet, when an employee comes out with complaints, we pretend it is not okay to complain about your employer?
I don't know who is in the wrong here, we have seen both dramatic employees that take offense in everything innocent, but we have also seen corporations covering up bullying and abusive behavior. Which one is it in this case? I don't know yet, I bet you don't either.
From what I understand, there were a few such tickets created for multiple people on that team. “Make X’s life hell”. It’s at best a poorly thought out joke, but it is worth mentioning that this ticket was not isolated to her.
Well, that definitely puts this into a different perspective... I see how at some of my former companies we would have made such joke tickets for each other.
It's really hard to tell who is right from the outside, considering all parties might take things out of context.
Just as a personal comment, that is why am the most boring person ever with my coworkers. (Assuming you are right) Is it really worth writing a "joke" ticket like this when it might come back in 6 years and you'll be painted as the bullies of Apple?
It's really hard to tell who is right from the outside, considering all parties might take things out of context.
Just as a personal comment, that is why am the most boring person ever with my coworkers. (Assuming you are right) Is it really worth writing a "joke" ticket like this when it might come back in 6 years and you'll be painted as the bullies of Apple?
Yes, it's definitely worth having a team where you can bond over light, harmless jokes that fly in all directions. It's also okay to be 'boring', of course.
I'm sure her old team is dismayed to see her lying about it now.
I'm sure her old team is dismayed to see her lying about it now.
From: The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize It and How to Respond by Patricia Evans
""" > Abuse disguised as a joke happens when abusers make comments about you that they want other people to believe are funny, but you know they are threats and put-downs in disguise. They’re sick personal jokes between the two of you. Only you know the real story behind his “humor” so friends may wonder why you cry or become so upset when he teases and jokes... Abusers tend to use sarcastic humor and make fun of other people – but they rarely if ever poke fun at themselves. """
Strange how confident you are in accusing her of lying. Almost like you have this strategy down to a science. Can't imagine why.
""" > Abuse disguised as a joke happens when abusers make comments about you that they want other people to believe are funny, but you know they are threats and put-downs in disguise. They’re sick personal jokes between the two of you. Only you know the real story behind his “humor” so friends may wonder why you cry or become so upset when he teases and jokes... Abusers tend to use sarcastic humor and make fun of other people – but they rarely if ever poke fun at themselves. """
Strange how confident you are in accusing her of lying. Almost like you have this strategy down to a science. Can't imagine why.
Your comment was dead, so I vouched for it. I think your accusation is wildly off base, though.
Could you please clarify in what way? I think your accusation that she's lying is wildly off base, but the difference is that I cited an external source to validate my insinuation.
That’s fine that you think that. Your source was a general quote from a book not relevant to that kind of sarcastic whiteboard comment or ticket.
How about the one where they filled a whiteboard with nasty nicknames for her?
Regardless of whether these complaints have merit or not, I never understood people who crap on their employer in public using social media.
It's one thing to have a complaint (or several) you bring up internally through the right channels, it's something else entirely to run a continuous campaign of shaming a company that you currently work for. How anyone can go to work at a company every day while also actively working against it is beyond me — not to mention how her relationships with her colleagues are impacted by her tweeting.
She calls herself a whistleblower, but was also tweeting about issues that were still under internal investigation at the time, and which was confidential. That's absolutely the wrong way to go about things.
It's one thing to have a complaint (or several) you bring up internally through the right channels, it's something else entirely to run a continuous campaign of shaming a company that you currently work for. How anyone can go to work at a company every day while also actively working against it is beyond me — not to mention how her relationships with her colleagues are impacted by her tweeting.
She calls herself a whistleblower, but was also tweeting about issues that were still under internal investigation at the time, and which was confidential. That's absolutely the wrong way to go about things.
About footnote, claiming is not the same than telling truth.
A lot of corporations are making their own "laws" (warranty stickers, abusive contract clauses, anti-piracy disclaimers, etc.) and they are keeping them even when they know it's total lies.
Authorities also take what corporations tell them as granted truth.
So even if the odds are in favor of corporations being right (corps are usually a lot of people), don't fall in that kind of trap especially when it favors the corporation or if there are facts casting doubts.
-- This is my personal view not necessarily the view of my employer. I may be POTUS too. I may or may not think Apple is right. You owe me $100 if you read that sentence.
A lot of corporations are making their own "laws" (warranty stickers, abusive contract clauses, anti-piracy disclaimers, etc.) and they are keeping them even when they know it's total lies.
Authorities also take what corporations tell them as granted truth.
So even if the odds are in favor of corporations being right (corps are usually a lot of people), don't fall in that kind of trap especially when it favors the corporation or if there are facts casting doubts.
-- This is my personal view not necessarily the view of my employer. I may be POTUS too. I may or may not think Apple is right. You owe me $100 if you read that sentence.
As I understand it, the footnote about confidentiality does not supersede state law that employees may discuss their mistreatment publicly.
This mirrors how I feel about this. I've just learned about this today from this HN post, and the first thing I did was check out her feed and websites for something like that. It's weird isn't it? She has this whole persona/business built around this Apple thing.
And she's talking about unions and such on company Slack, come on now. Reckless lol. https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
I've worked with people like this, they cause a silent rot within teams.
I mean look at this https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1422380335703101443 - totally benign feedback so that you don't sound like you're always asking a question (I've personally had this feedback given to me!) and immediately she skewers her boss as "sexist". Bad juju.
And she's talking about unions and such on company Slack, come on now. Reckless lol. https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
I've worked with people like this, they cause a silent rot within teams.
I mean look at this https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1422380335703101443 - totally benign feedback so that you don't sound like you're always asking a question (I've personally had this feedback given to me!) and immediately she skewers her boss as "sexist". Bad juju.
as they say in eastern europe "Don't spit in the well you drink from"
this reminds of that Google ethics researcher who was fired for sabotage and then built a big following on Twitter as a professional "victim of racism"
this reminds of that Google ethics researcher who was fired for sabotage and then built a big following on Twitter as a professional "victim of racism"
Sabotage is a pretty wild way to say “refusing to retract an academic paper that points out obvious flaws in ML models”.
there was much more to that, she demanded a list of reviewers who rejected her paper in a sort of ultimatum, and blasted group emails calling for sabotage
I don't know if you saw Jeff Dean's response, but here it is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f2kYWDXwhzYnq8ebVtuk9CqQ...
There was also a thread on reddit with her colleagues reactions https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t...
I don't know if you saw Jeff Dean's response, but here it is https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f2kYWDXwhzYnq8ebVtuk9CqQ...
There was also a thread on reddit with her colleagues reactions https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/k77sxz/d_t...
you left out "publicly calling out your SVP on twitter for not being racially sensitive enough" which she did before the paper blowup. Pretty sure that was the prime impetus for her being fired.
BTW, I worked with TPUs on the hardware side, and the entire section about hardware power usage is just completely and totally wrong (I would have asked for the paper to be retracted if it was published, the errors are so large). As for the obvious flaws part, yeah, some of the flaws are obvious (and known to all practitioners of the art already), some are irrelevant but made to sound like they are existential crises, and some of the "flaws" are just per personal opionion about what she doesn't like.
Hopefully she can find some academic position from which to propound her opinions. However, I do think in her behavior, she excluced herself from future employment.
BTW, I worked with TPUs on the hardware side, and the entire section about hardware power usage is just completely and totally wrong (I would have asked for the paper to be retracted if it was published, the errors are so large). As for the obvious flaws part, yeah, some of the flaws are obvious (and known to all practitioners of the art already), some are irrelevant but made to sound like they are existential crises, and some of the "flaws" are just per personal opionion about what she doesn't like.
Hopefully she can find some academic position from which to propound her opinions. However, I do think in her behavior, she excluced herself from future employment.
Multiple other, even white, employees called out this same SVP. Your usage of the phrase "Not being racially sensitive enough" strikes me as a bizarre euphemism for "racism", which it would appear you don't see as an issue.
"are just per personal opinion about what she doesn't like."
The field of AI Ethics is an amalgam of computer science and moral philosophy. What do you think value judgements are? What are those "personal opinions" and things she "doesn't like" and why?
It seems you're using a lot of euphemisms to hide some very unpleasant truths about your world view.
"are just per personal opinion about what she doesn't like."
The field of AI Ethics is an amalgam of computer science and moral philosophy. What do you think value judgements are? What are those "personal opinions" and things she "doesn't like" and why?
It seems you're using a lot of euphemisms to hide some very unpleasant truths about your world view.
I don't know of any situation where anybody other than Timnit called out Jeff Dean publicly on twitter, at least not until Timnit had, or with nearly as much vehemence.
I'm familiar with ethics in science; worked in biology for many years before concluding humanity isn't ready for gene modification.
It's pretty clear that her opinion space in ethics is just one view, and not a particularly representative one. I know other ethicists who are far more careful (Sara Hooker for one) and say things that have much more impact, through careful writing to make it clear they are showing a societally relevant position on ethics.
I'm familiar with ethics in science; worked in biology for many years before concluding humanity isn't ready for gene modification.
It's pretty clear that her opinion space in ethics is just one view, and not a particularly representative one. I know other ethicists who are far more careful (Sara Hooker for one) and say things that have much more impact, through careful writing to make it clear they are showing a societally relevant position on ethics.
Timnit had a large following before she got fired. Especially for us who work in the field.
She is not a 'professional victim of racism.' She is a professional who was fired for raising ethical concerns around larger language models.
She is not a 'professional victim of racism.' She is a professional who was fired for raising ethical concerns around larger language models.
> She is a professional who was fired for raising ethical concerns around larger language models.
This is a clear mischaracterization of the reported events. Gebru, in her own statements on the subject, stated that she was fired for demanding to know the identities of peers who submitted critical feedback on her work through confidential HR channels. Leaving aside the question of whether those criticisms had merit, her being fired was a foregone conclusion of making such an ultimatum. No confidential peer feedback system can function if there is a possibility of reviewers being de-anonymized at the demand of sufficiently influential coworkers.
On a more opinionated note - making a demand like that displays critical lack of judgement in the important responsibility that all employees in supervisory roles have in ensuring a non-hostile working environment. Even if her intention was not to retaliate against her peers after determining their identities, it’s essential that people in positions of power do not take actions that even suggest that they are seeking to retaliate against less powerful peers. The importance of this principle is extreme to a healthy collaborative work environment. The fact that someone as intelligent as Gebru was surprised to be fired for making an ultimatum like this is itself surprising.
This is a clear mischaracterization of the reported events. Gebru, in her own statements on the subject, stated that she was fired for demanding to know the identities of peers who submitted critical feedback on her work through confidential HR channels. Leaving aside the question of whether those criticisms had merit, her being fired was a foregone conclusion of making such an ultimatum. No confidential peer feedback system can function if there is a possibility of reviewers being de-anonymized at the demand of sufficiently influential coworkers.
On a more opinionated note - making a demand like that displays critical lack of judgement in the important responsibility that all employees in supervisory roles have in ensuring a non-hostile working environment. Even if her intention was not to retaliate against her peers after determining their identities, it’s essential that people in positions of power do not take actions that even suggest that they are seeking to retaliate against less powerful peers. The importance of this principle is extreme to a healthy collaborative work environment. The fact that someone as intelligent as Gebru was surprised to be fired for making an ultimatum like this is itself surprising.
> And she's talking about unions and such on company Slack, come on now. Reckless lol.
Generally speaking she does seem to have issues, but why wouldn't you discuss unions on a company Slack?
Generally speaking she does seem to have issues, but why wouldn't you discuss unions on a company Slack?
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still, she's going to get a fat settlement from apple.
was this the plan all along?
was this the plan all along?
Is that accurate? I don't think victims of discrimination actually make from such settlements, especially compared to the salaried positions of their abusers, measured against loss of income from blacklisting and lasting damages from abuse. I think the myth of "big discrimination payout" is designed specifically to pre-emptively discredit whistleblowers (especially survivors of sexual/emotional abuse).
> was this the plan all along? Would you say this about Larry Nassar's victims? (sadly, yes, when it was just the first few women, you probably would). I'd like you to reflect on this comment next time Blizzard's abusive culture is back the news and you're wondering why women abused in the workplace are turning to suicide over legal mediation.
You can choose to look away, but never again can you say "you didn't know."
> was this the plan all along? Would you say this about Larry Nassar's victims? (sadly, yes, when it was just the first few women, you probably would). I'd like you to reflect on this comment next time Blizzard's abusive culture is back the news and you're wondering why women abused in the workplace are turning to suicide over legal mediation.
You can choose to look away, but never again can you say "you didn't know."
Her personal beliefs aren't something that changes how Apple handled this situation.
Edit: I'm not arguing that she hasn't made the situation worse, I'm only arguing that her behavior doesn't excuse Apple's.
Edit: I'm not arguing that she hasn't made the situation worse, I'm only arguing that her behavior doesn't excuse Apple's.
Firing people that actively stir controversy and attract bad press to the corp in question seems obviously like the logical thing to do. This individual clearly desires to advance their personal situation and cultivate controversy almost explicitly at the expense of their employer.
Sorry if I'm being insensitive but it just seems inappropriate to handle this via social media vs. going through internal mechanisms, and then escalate to local PD/LE. I mean I feel like if I was in a position to run a megacorp, I'd try to cultivate a culture of innovation and curiosity. If there are bad actors that are abusing other colleagues, I'd want to fire them (i.e. her alleged abuser) and do my best and make sure the abuser can't engage in any retributive behavior to the individual or anyone else (going even further than just the org) - even so far as to potentially recommend the incident be investigated by the police.
EDIT: I truly sympathize with her situation. It sucks to be bullied, abused, etc. I just don't feel like airing dirty laundry, even if it feels useful in the moment, is an effective way to force organizational change. I know of several cases against major banks that involved sexual harassment and I can't image the hammer of God force of nature damage the legal team at some of the megabanks would cause against this person (as an example), so you have to be realistic and careful. I just don't think in any professional capacity I'd ever say "wow my coworkers looked at my genatalia and I am extremely offended at this - isn't this terrible?" Yes, of course it is terrible. However, is the manner by which you are conducting your counter-offensive truly effective?
If you have cause, take notes, collect as much explicit documented evidence and then go to a lawyer. Airing out your dirty laundry will literally never end well and makes you radioactive in terms of future employment opportunities - except in this case, it's on the person - not the employer. Build your case, move slowly, strike - don't just start tweeting about your grievances. Am I crazy or what?
Sorry if I'm being insensitive but it just seems inappropriate to handle this via social media vs. going through internal mechanisms, and then escalate to local PD/LE. I mean I feel like if I was in a position to run a megacorp, I'd try to cultivate a culture of innovation and curiosity. If there are bad actors that are abusing other colleagues, I'd want to fire them (i.e. her alleged abuser) and do my best and make sure the abuser can't engage in any retributive behavior to the individual or anyone else (going even further than just the org) - even so far as to potentially recommend the incident be investigated by the police.
EDIT: I truly sympathize with her situation. It sucks to be bullied, abused, etc. I just don't feel like airing dirty laundry, even if it feels useful in the moment, is an effective way to force organizational change. I know of several cases against major banks that involved sexual harassment and I can't image the hammer of God force of nature damage the legal team at some of the megabanks would cause against this person (as an example), so you have to be realistic and careful. I just don't think in any professional capacity I'd ever say "wow my coworkers looked at my genatalia and I am extremely offended at this - isn't this terrible?" Yes, of course it is terrible. However, is the manner by which you are conducting your counter-offensive truly effective?
If you have cause, take notes, collect as much explicit documented evidence and then go to a lawyer. Airing out your dirty laundry will literally never end well and makes you radioactive in terms of future employment opportunities - except in this case, it's on the person - not the employer. Build your case, move slowly, strike - don't just start tweeting about your grievances. Am I crazy or what?
They should have either fired her if she was completely in the wrong way back when it first started, or acknowledge and own up to her complaints. Instead they resisted her allegations in an indefensible manner and let it become what it is now, firing her when they realized she wouldn't back down.
I don't agree with that at all. Opening an investigation after a complaint is reasonable. If you find the complaint to not be relevant, the right response is to fire the employee who made the complaint? That doesn't seem useful, it will just up the cost of complaints for employees by a lot, so you get fewer complaints and have fewer chances to fix issues.
Firing someone who has become oppositional, doesn't seem to have any interest in "patching things up", discloses confidential information and trash talks you on Twitter? That seems perfectly reasonable. There's no point in keeping them on the pay roll.
Firing someone who has become oppositional, doesn't seem to have any interest in "patching things up", discloses confidential information and trash talks you on Twitter? That seems perfectly reasonable. There's no point in keeping them on the pay roll.
I think the sad reality is that the only way to have some sort of power and support against a megacorporation is by showing a controversy to the public. I don't know how many threads I've read about people just being locked out of their account and they've had to use HN or Reddit to get in contact with a person. From the point of view of the corp, it's bad press, but they really don't seem to act unless there is bad press.
I don't give Apple the benefit of the doubt when their entire company culture is about secrecy and forcing decisions on its users.
I don't give Apple the benefit of the doubt when their entire company culture is about secrecy and forcing decisions on its users.
> I've read about people just being locked out of their account and they've had to use HN or Reddit to get in contact with a person
Not really the same thing. She was an employee, and Apple was already willing to investigate the issue twice. She wasn't facing indifference, and "showing a controversy to the public" involved leaking confidential documents.
Not really the same thing. She was an employee, and Apple was already willing to investigate the issue twice. She wasn't facing indifference, and "showing a controversy to the public" involved leaking confidential documents.
> I just don't feel like airing dirty laundry, even if it feels useful in the moment, is an effective way to force organizational change.
Ever heard of Edward Snowden? You think what he did was totally ineffective?
Ever heard of Edward Snowden? You think what he did was totally ineffective?
He's on the run living in Russia and we still have NSA spying on people and parallel construction is still widely used so pretty much, yeah, totally ineffective.
it certainly sped up Google's internal project to encrypt its between-datacenter (cross-countries) communications. "SSL added and removed here" indeed.
From your comment, it's very clear that you've never been in a situation like this.
Have you ever had to report misconduct of a higher-up to HR? HR exists first and foremost to protect the company and they're only helpful insofar as it's in the company's interest. And do you really think the police would be at all interested in getting involved in something like this?
And taking Apple, one of the most well-funded corporations in the world, to court? To spend years and large chunks of savings on litigation for the chance that someone will get a slap on the wrist?
Whew, I'm just saying - maybe people who don't have experience in this area should chill.
Have you ever had to report misconduct of a higher-up to HR? HR exists first and foremost to protect the company and they're only helpful insofar as it's in the company's interest. And do you really think the police would be at all interested in getting involved in something like this?
And taking Apple, one of the most well-funded corporations in the world, to court? To spend years and large chunks of savings on litigation for the chance that someone will get a slap on the wrist?
Whew, I'm just saying - maybe people who don't have experience in this area should chill.
> HR exists first and foremost to protect the company and they're only helpful insofar as it's in the company's interest.
This is not true. There are good people in HR who actually believe what they say.
This is not true. There are good people in HR who actually believe what they say.
HR. its in the name. Human Resources. Theyr job is to provide human resources to the company, not to defend employee rights. Thats what unions are for.
Though comprised of many good people, HR is just the de facto surveillance apparatus of management. This has been shown to be the case many times over.
They do if most of our knowledge of how Apple handled this situation comes from her accounts.
The comment you're responding to describes her actions more than her personal beliefs.
I google-image searched her name. This tweet (and the one below it) came up:
https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1422380335703101443
This is one of those prickly things where about half the population takes one side and the other half takes the other side.
I, personally, would greatly appreciate my boss giving me advice on how to improve the tone of my delivery during presentations.
I wouldn't call it tone-policing.
I wouldn't complain to HR about it.
And I certainly wouldn't put it on Twitter for the world to see.
Bananas.
-----------
Update: I just saw the piece on her website where she tweets "Here's me catching my #Apple officemate randomly looking at rifle specs".
The tweet: https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1426572384736202758
(Astonishingly, she thinks it's okay to take a creep-shot of a colleague's computer screen and post it on Twitter.)
Ashley "caught" her officemate doing something naughty, y'all.
She's a professional snitch.
https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1422380335703101443
This is one of those prickly things where about half the population takes one side and the other half takes the other side.
I, personally, would greatly appreciate my boss giving me advice on how to improve the tone of my delivery during presentations.
I wouldn't call it tone-policing.
I wouldn't complain to HR about it.
And I certainly wouldn't put it on Twitter for the world to see.
Bananas.
-----------
Update: I just saw the piece on her website where she tweets "Here's me catching my #Apple officemate randomly looking at rifle specs".
The tweet: https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1426572384736202758
(Astonishingly, she thinks it's okay to take a creep-shot of a colleague's computer screen and post it on Twitter.)
Ashley "caught" her officemate doing something naughty, y'all.
She's a professional snitch.
> She's a professional snitch.
I'd even say unprofessional. Not that it would make her any better, but if she'd been professional she'd taken it quietly to management or police and they could have ignored it edit: making it less embarrassing for them and less hurting for the colleague even if she was dumb.
She is the kind of person who should make anyone feel uncomfortable at work.
Who knows what else she doesn't like and will capture and post publicly on internet?
BTW: this seriously reminds me about PyconGate where someone who had just posted a d#ck joke on Twitter herself got two others fired because she thought she overheard them saying something between themselves that could be construed as a similar joke.
I'd even say unprofessional. Not that it would make her any better, but if she'd been professional she'd taken it quietly to management or police and they could have ignored it edit: making it less embarrassing for them and less hurting for the colleague even if she was dumb.
She is the kind of person who should make anyone feel uncomfortable at work.
Who knows what else she doesn't like and will capture and post publicly on internet?
BTW: this seriously reminds me about PyconGate where someone who had just posted a d#ck joke on Twitter herself got two others fired because she thought she overheard them saying something between themselves that could be construed as a similar joke.
She (Adria Richards) ended up getting fired herself, https://sendgrid.com/blog/a-difficult-situation/.
"What we do not support was how she reported the conduct. Her decision to tweet the comments and photographs of the people who made the comments crossed the line. Publicly shaming the offenders – and bystanders – was not the appropriate way to handle the situation"
It was also pointed out she had previously made jokes about male genitalia on twitter (from her work account) a few days before, which obviously (in internet rules) makes her a hypocrite.
I can't find her on linkedin (she probably is unemployable now)but there is a statement attributed to her after she was fired (https://allthingsd.com/20130327/fired-sendgrid-developer-eva...)
Anyway, all of this is just leading to the point that we're going to need to find a new term, sort of like "peter and the wolf" where a person abuses the virality of social media, in combination with stereotyping, confirmation bias and willingly incorrect analysis of situations, to attempt to take down other people illegitimately. Oh wait. That's just cancelling cancel culture.
"What we do not support was how she reported the conduct. Her decision to tweet the comments and photographs of the people who made the comments crossed the line. Publicly shaming the offenders – and bystanders – was not the appropriate way to handle the situation"
It was also pointed out she had previously made jokes about male genitalia on twitter (from her work account) a few days before, which obviously (in internet rules) makes her a hypocrite.
I can't find her on linkedin (she probably is unemployable now)but there is a statement attributed to her after she was fired (https://allthingsd.com/20130327/fired-sendgrid-developer-eva...)
Anyway, all of this is just leading to the point that we're going to need to find a new term, sort of like "peter and the wolf" where a person abuses the virality of social media, in combination with stereotyping, confirmation bias and willingly incorrect analysis of situations, to attempt to take down other people illegitimately. Oh wait. That's just cancelling cancel culture.
Maybe if she talked to her coworkers about their interests instead of tasking creepy photos without their consent, she'd realize that it's actually a shotgun, not a rifle.
The implication in the replies that no one from Texas has a valid opinion certainly says a lot about her communication style though.
The implication in the replies that no one from Texas has a valid opinion certainly says a lot about her communication style though.
Oh it’s a shotgun, not a rifle. Yes that makes all the difference.
But taking a photo of an employee’s screen and posting it on the internet is way over the line.
But taking a photo of an employee’s screen and posting it on the internet is way over the line.
The comment about it being a shotgun was a bit tongue and cheek, but my point was that it seems like she's more interested in demonizing people who are different than trying to actually understand them.
You see that when she refuses to consider the opinion of someone who was born in a certain place. You also see that when she implies that her coworker is breaking company policy and creating a safety issue- if that was actually the case why would you wait 6 years, when no one can prove or disprove the accusation? It seems like she wasn't actually concerned about the safety issue, she was more concerned about collecting a critical mass of "receipts" before she publicly disclosed her alleged victimhood.
You see that when she refuses to consider the opinion of someone who was born in a certain place. You also see that when she implies that her coworker is breaking company policy and creating a safety issue- if that was actually the case why would you wait 6 years, when no one can prove or disprove the accusation? It seems like she wasn't actually concerned about the safety issue, she was more concerned about collecting a critical mass of "receipts" before she publicly disclosed her alleged victimhood.
IIUC some shotguns can fire rifle bullets and vice versa. The more I look into gun ontology the more I realize it's a massive latent space and most people talking about guns have no idea how smooth the continuum between assault weapons, rifles, and shotguns are.
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It must be miserable being this person's manager or employer
If I were ashley's manager, I would have gone to HR and said this: "I don't think I can manage ashley. It's too hard. I don't have the skills to manage an activist employee who is aggressively using social media to tarnish the reputation of her employer. Can you help me find another manager to transfer her to?"
Or being managed by her.
Her tone-policing tweet was shared at the time, and the resounding response was "that seems like reasonable feedback" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28066459
Ashley (or ally's of hers) have been spamming updates to this slow motion career implosion on HN for the past few months, to try and paint Apple as some misogynistic dystopia and most of the posts have been flagged.
Ashley (or ally's of hers) have been spamming updates to this slow motion career implosion on HN for the past few months, to try and paint Apple as some misogynistic dystopia and most of the posts have been flagged.
She's effectively policing everyone (her coworkers can't lookup the specs of a rifle, the company should stop using some common business terms because they're offensive, etc.)
Yet when it comes to her listening to someone else's feedback (not sounding as if she's asking questions when she's not during a presentation) that's tone-policing and she can't tolerate it.
So much hypocrisy.
Yet when it comes to her listening to someone else's feedback (not sounding as if she's asking questions when she's not during a presentation) that's tone-policing and she can't tolerate it.
So much hypocrisy.
Yeah, one learns pretty quickly in management not to provide this kind of advice.
One wonders with so much distaste for capitalism why she didn’t take a more lucrative position with the politburo where employment standards are so much better.
One wonders with so much distaste for capitalism why she didn’t take a more lucrative position with the politburo where employment standards are so much better.
That gun looks like a single shot carbine. Not exactly the stuff of gun nuts.
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Or exactly the stuff for some gun nuts.
I assume certain actual gun nuts are nuts about those kinds of guns just like some car enthusiasts are enthusiasts about old impractical cars?
I assume certain actual gun nuts are nuts about those kinds of guns just like some car enthusiasts are enthusiasts about old impractical cars?
"I didn't hear you going up an octave at the end of your statements"
Aussie women are going to have trouble at Apple.
Aussie women are going to have trouble at Apple.
As an Aussie male, I agree?
NIDA (Australia's, and one of the world's best acting schools) actually run a course "Influential Women" [1] that focuses on vocal presence for women in corporate environments.
[1] https://www.corporate.nida.edu.au/course/CWIB
[1] https://www.corporate.nida.edu.au/course/CWIB
Apple did the right thing to let this person go. Regardless of whether she's wrong or right, you don't let inmates run the asylum. Whenever you have an employee like this, they are nothing but trouble: insisting on getting everything "in writing," pushing for explicit answers to things they don't have a need-to-know, and otherwise creating negative energy around the office and acting like they run the place. Really, people like this are pure downside for an org. The old saw about rather not hiring ten qualified people than making one bad hire is 100% spot on with this one. Go Apple!
> The old saw about rather not hiring ten qualified people than making one bad hire is 100% spot on with this one.
For everyone who bitches about tech recruiting, I wish they would at least give some empathy to this point of view.
In Apple's case, they did make the mistake of this bad hire, and I bet the amount of time, effort, and negative publicity they've had to deal with, not to mention how this kind of toxic behavior just kills morale at organizations, is orders of magnitude worse than with an average employee. During the period I was a manager, I hated how the majority of my attention, work stress and time was devoted to handling a toxic individual, as opposed to all my other employees who were working hard to make the team better.
And to be clear, my judgement of this person as an individual I would loath having to work with literally has nothing to do with others' descriptions of her, it solely has to do with her own words that she has published.
For everyone who bitches about tech recruiting, I wish they would at least give some empathy to this point of view.
In Apple's case, they did make the mistake of this bad hire, and I bet the amount of time, effort, and negative publicity they've had to deal with, not to mention how this kind of toxic behavior just kills morale at organizations, is orders of magnitude worse than with an average employee. During the period I was a manager, I hated how the majority of my attention, work stress and time was devoted to handling a toxic individual, as opposed to all my other employees who were working hard to make the team better.
And to be clear, my judgement of this person as an individual I would loath having to work with literally has nothing to do with others' descriptions of her, it solely has to do with her own words that she has published.
> hated how the majority of my attention, work stress and time was devoted to handling a toxic individual
I've witnessed this in a startup I was peripherally involved with and know the founder quite well. The lead science guy had serious narcissism issues and he was seriously slowing them down by making every meeting about himself, constantly angling for more power and being unreasonable. When they finally fired him after an especially dumb maneuver, it was like the sun has come up after a dark night. Processes suddenly "just worked", juniors were taking over responsibilities and growing quickly into their roles, and the whole team got along much better. They made much better progress without him.
I've witnessed this in a startup I was peripherally involved with and know the founder quite well. The lead science guy had serious narcissism issues and he was seriously slowing them down by making every meeting about himself, constantly angling for more power and being unreasonable. When they finally fired him after an especially dumb maneuver, it was like the sun has come up after a dark night. Processes suddenly "just worked", juniors were taking over responsibilities and growing quickly into their roles, and the whole team got along much better. They made much better progress without him.
Seriously, if they had only asked her to reconstruct a BST from a preorder and a postorder, they would have definitely avoided this problem.
I find such Professional Nuisances are adept at rapidly increasing how irritating they are as others come to realize the PN is providing little to no business value or what value is provided isn’t enough to compensate for the irritation. Generally PNs are gossipy martyrs that thrive on bringing down others and denigrating their employer as they put up a false front of whistleblowing and/or positive disruption. A good HR team knows the signs and shows such folks the door ahead of any debacle.
No surprise. When she tweeted that they wanted an extremely short notice meeting about a “serious issue,” I knew she was done. This is how most of the big companies do their firings these days.
Definitely not sympathizing with her, though. She brought this on herself, 100%. Constantly campaigning against your employer, in a very public forum to boot, is eventually going to draw their ire. She had a very generous title and salary for what looked like limited experience in the field and it seemed they were paying for her to obtain an unrelated J.D. Very generous, I’d say.
If you keep biting the hand that feeds you, eventually the hand - and the food - gets withdrawn.
A bit tangential, but I’ve never understood why people stay in jobs they can’t stand to the point where they self implode like this. I’m sure there were other teams, other roles at Apple in which she could have found herself.
Definitely not sympathizing with her, though. She brought this on herself, 100%. Constantly campaigning against your employer, in a very public forum to boot, is eventually going to draw their ire. She had a very generous title and salary for what looked like limited experience in the field and it seemed they were paying for her to obtain an unrelated J.D. Very generous, I’d say.
If you keep biting the hand that feeds you, eventually the hand - and the food - gets withdrawn.
A bit tangential, but I’ve never understood why people stay in jobs they can’t stand to the point where they self implode like this. I’m sure there were other teams, other roles at Apple in which she could have found herself.
She might have been looking for new job and proudly posting here social media presence. The people recruiting would have checked that and immediately went nope. You don't leave until you have next job joined up unless you really really hate it.
They have programs at Apple that allow you to work temporarily for 6 months in another department. Why wouldn't she have applied for one in the Legal department? Something weird here.
The note that Apple has carte blanche access to any of their employee's iCloud/iPhone data is not surprising to me, but should be a wakeup call for anyone working there.
I know a guy who worked on their internal security team (investigating leaks, etc.) and the access they have into employee's digital lives is legitimately terrifying.
We need better protections around "tech worker" user data & its ownership. Apple shouldn't be able to keep your personal iCloud data indefinitely just because you worked for them, but they can, and it's totally legal.
I know a guy who worked on their internal security team (investigating leaks, etc.) and the access they have into employee's digital lives is legitimately terrifying.
We need better protections around "tech worker" user data & its ownership. Apple shouldn't be able to keep your personal iCloud data indefinitely just because you worked for them, but they can, and it's totally legal.
They only have access to company devices, not your personal ones. If you use a different account than your personal one that shouldn’t be an issue. Though they should maybe make it clearer to employees that using personal accounts on work devices is not allowed.
Tbh, whenever I get another work device, there’s a document you have to acknowledge that says what can be done, what rights you have to data on it (basically none) and that the device and it’s content are Apples to do with as the company sees fit.
If you want a personal phone, they’ll give you a significant discount to buy one, but the ones they give away are clearly meant for work use. Anyone who just clicks through an agreement like that without reading it at least once is a bloody fool.
If you want a personal phone, they’ll give you a significant discount to buy one, but the ones they give away are clearly meant for work use. Anyone who just clicks through an agreement like that without reading it at least once is a bloody fool.
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It shouldn't have to be a wake up call. Employees should understand that you don't use work devices for personal stuff. I've seen so many people get fired because they were caught looking at pr0n on their work computer/phone. It's just dumb.
Apple has carte blanche access to everyone’s iCloud data, as it’s stored on Apple servers and is mostly not end-to-end encrypted. They can read all of your iMessages, including attachments (out of your non-e2e iCloud Backup data), see all of your photos, et c. Not just for Apple employees, but for every user of iCloud: everyone’s employees.
I had never heard the phrase, "open the kimono", before, as referenced here in a summary of events leading to her firing: https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
I find it hard to see the implicit sexism in this. Truth be told, if I heard the phrase around the workplace and someone took issue with it I'd probably be internally rolling my eyes.
Am I different from the average person? Do other people have an automatic, internal and visceral reaction to such locutions that I'm lacking?
I find it hard to see the implicit sexism in this. Truth be told, if I heard the phrase around the workplace and someone took issue with it I'd probably be internally rolling my eyes.
Am I different from the average person? Do other people have an automatic, internal and visceral reaction to such locutions that I'm lacking?
> I find it hard to see the implicit sexism in this.
The investopedia page is rather coy,
> There are conflicting etymologies for this phrase, but the one closest to its current business connotation is the idea of Japanese people loosening their kimonos to relax at home, much like loosening a tie. [1]
Women in Japan haven't exactly enjoyed equal status in the western sense and there is a boat load of subjugation that probably went into coming up with this phrase. The worst example is probably the use of "comfort women" [2] by the Japanese army in WW II. These women were enslaved for sex.
So of course a woman would find this offensive, particularly when directed at her, since if you know any history it is easy to imagine this phrase originating from "open your kimono and have sex with me." I can also imagine oblivious men in tech repeating it if they didn't "get it" at first because they had heard other men use the phrase without realizing its origin. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved.
[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women
The investopedia page is rather coy,
> There are conflicting etymologies for this phrase, but the one closest to its current business connotation is the idea of Japanese people loosening their kimonos to relax at home, much like loosening a tie. [1]
Women in Japan haven't exactly enjoyed equal status in the western sense and there is a boat load of subjugation that probably went into coming up with this phrase. The worst example is probably the use of "comfort women" [2] by the Japanese army in WW II. These women were enslaved for sex.
So of course a woman would find this offensive, particularly when directed at her, since if you know any history it is easy to imagine this phrase originating from "open your kimono and have sex with me." I can also imagine oblivious men in tech repeating it if they didn't "get it" at first because they had heard other men use the phrase without realizing its origin. However you do deserve to be called out if you continue using it while feigning ignorance. Your response should simply be, "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the implications of this phrase. I'll stop using it." And if you can't do that then HR should get involved.
[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women
Is there any link between "open the kimono" and "comfort women" or is that conjecture?
It's a fascinating phrase, perhaps not least because nobody knows where it comes from but somehow people also seem to know that it's innocuous or know that it's sexist.
It's a fascinating phrase, perhaps not least because nobody knows where it comes from but somehow people also seem to know that it's innocuous or know that it's sexist.
That was conjecture on my part. Now that I read more of that investopedia link, I see it likely came from Jobs, which would explain the use of the phrase at Apple,
> Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, notably used the expression in 1979 during a visit to Xerox Parc. He reportedly said: “Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc.” This memorable expression and meeting apparently led to him discovering the mouse, and Apple subsequently launching the first commercial mouse. [1]
In that context it seems fine to me. He's talking about a product. Now, clearly, "open the kimono" means to bare something naked. If you ask a person to be more "open kimono" as a way of asking them to be more open, I think that crosses a line. And, maybe if you suggest someone go "open kimono" on their work, that could be received offensively while not being intended that way. So, context matters. I'd probably steer clear of it entirely though.
[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
> Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple, notably used the expression in 1979 during a visit to Xerox Parc. He reportedly said: “Look, I will let you invest a million dollars in Apple if you will sort of open the kimono on Xerox Parc.” This memorable expression and meeting apparently led to him discovering the mouse, and Apple subsequently launching the first commercial mouse. [1]
In that context it seems fine to me. He's talking about a product. Now, clearly, "open the kimono" means to bare something naked. If you ask a person to be more "open kimono" as a way of asking them to be more open, I think that crosses a line. And, maybe if you suggest someone go "open kimono" on their work, that could be received offensively while not being intended that way. So, context matters. I'd probably steer clear of it entirely though.
[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/open-kimono.asp
> I'd probably steer clear of it entirely though.
Agreed, it's a bizarre phrase probably best left unused.
Agreed, it's a bizarre phrase probably best left unused.
I once had a FAANG client call out someone from my company for using that phrase. To be fair, it seems more sexually evocative than is really necessary when talking about metrics on PowerPoint slides.
No, you're not different. There is a type of person who wants to find offense, and they will find offense with a phrase like this. Most people are not that way.
Wiki says that aside from formal occasions and festivals the most common people to be seen wearing kimonos are geisha, maiko, and sumo wrestlers.
“Open the kimono” in the context of who the primary wearers are comes off as crass and not fit for the workplace
“Open the kimono” in the context of who the primary wearers are comes off as crass and not fit for the workplace
Then wiki should check their sources. When you see people with kimono on the streets in Tokyo I assure you that "geisha" is not what comes to mind.
Context matters, the context of hearing the English phrase is not the streets of Japan.
Its context here is business settings in America. So I was wrong I saying random person on the street, I should have said random American office worker.
Anyway, it’s rather satisfying that those against what they call “cancel” culture react to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting, it shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”.
I’ll whole grant you that said in Japanese in Japan the phrase could be okay, I have no idea about that.
Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away.
This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
Its context here is business settings in America. So I was wrong I saying random person on the street, I should have said random American office worker.
Anyway, it’s rather satisfying that those against what they call “cancel” culture react to opinions they deem unpopular by downvoting, it shows they don’t care about the principal of what they call “cancel” culture in general but only care that what they are used to is being “cancelled”.
I’ll whole grant you that said in Japanese in Japan the phrase could be okay, I have no idea about that.
Has anyone tried googling the term to see what comes up? Many posts explaining or talking about why the term is problematic. People downvoting are trying to ignore facts they dislike, but that doesn’t make facts go away.
This even comes up https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23549563
I’m commenting on the wikipedia comment, that is the context.
I haven’t discussed cancel culture, nor downvoted anything. Not that that’s even related to each other.
The fact of the matter is that the phrase does not denigrate Japanese culture, it is completely gender agnostic and is not an innuendo. That’s objectively true.
So either it’s the American phobia of even pretending that other cultures exist, or it’s the equally American phobia of nudity. Even in a figure of speech.
I haven’t discussed cancel culture, nor downvoted anything. Not that that’s even related to each other.
The fact of the matter is that the phrase does not denigrate Japanese culture, it is completely gender agnostic and is not an innuendo. That’s objectively true.
So either it’s the American phobia of even pretending that other cultures exist, or it’s the equally American phobia of nudity. Even in a figure of speech.
None of those are objectively true. Please research the term by googling it before declaring things are objectively true about it.
The top google results show it’s taken by many to be a sexist term.
The top google results show it’s taken by many to be a sexist term.
An appeal to authority?
I mean, you can find Google results that can affirm almost any opinion, but that doesn’t make your argument here any less silly than it already is.
I mean, you can find Google results that can affirm almost any opinion, but that doesn’t make your argument here any less silly than it already is.
When you read “open the kimono” try thinking “drop your pants” to get the gist.
It’s totally valid that you don’t have the reaction to this that others do, and i think it’s just important that when people say “this language is demeaning and hurtful to me” that we acknowledge that as valid too.
It’s totally valid that you don’t have the reaction to this that others do, and i think it’s just important that when people say “this language is demeaning and hurtful to me” that we acknowledge that as valid too.
Well, I have two reactions to this:
1) "Drop the pants" doesn't offend me 2) I don't know why it's assumed kimono is a reference to a garment exclusively worn by women and certainly the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women"
The best evidence I can find online suggests its a reference from feudal Japan where one could prove one wasn't harbouring any weapons.
However, I do agree that when someone says, "this language is demeaning and hurtful to me", that you should at least reflect internally on whether that's a valid position for them to hold and if so change your own behaviour to cease using a certain phrase.
The bit that stumps me, and I mean I'm totally flummoxed here, is what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?
EDIT: Actually, I just had a reaction to this, which is when someone else polices my phrasing, I feel misrepresented and attacked. Especially when there exists enough ambiguity that it would be impossible to determine whether there was intent or some hitherto unearthed entrenched bias in my choice of words. So now we're in a circular argument. I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.
Oh gosh, now I'm having flashbacks of past toxic relationships.
1) "Drop the pants" doesn't offend me 2) I don't know why it's assumed kimono is a reference to a garment exclusively worn by women and certainly the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women"
The best evidence I can find online suggests its a reference from feudal Japan where one could prove one wasn't harbouring any weapons.
However, I do agree that when someone says, "this language is demeaning and hurtful to me", that you should at least reflect internally on whether that's a valid position for them to hold and if so change your own behaviour to cease using a certain phrase.
The bit that stumps me, and I mean I'm totally flummoxed here, is what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression? What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?
EDIT: Actually, I just had a reaction to this, which is when someone else polices my phrasing, I feel misrepresented and attacked. Especially when there exists enough ambiguity that it would be impossible to determine whether there was intent or some hitherto unearthed entrenched bias in my choice of words. So now we're in a circular argument. I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.
Oh gosh, now I'm having flashbacks of past toxic relationships.
> the etymology of the phrase is not clear that it pertains at all to Geisha's or "comfort women"
It seems like a strong possibility to me. If someone told me something I was saying offended them, I'd stop using it in their presence and would reconsider using it in general. It's just common courtesy and in this case it's easy to see how someone could interpret it as a sexualized phrase even if you didn't intend it that way. In short, that's not a hill worth dying on, online or IRL.
It seems like a strong possibility to me. If someone told me something I was saying offended them, I'd stop using it in their presence and would reconsider using it in general. It's just common courtesy and in this case it's easy to see how someone could interpret it as a sexualized phrase even if you didn't intend it that way. In short, that's not a hill worth dying on, online or IRL.
> what do I do when I fundamentally disagree with someone else about the implicit sexism or bias of an expression?
In this case you ask at least one 3rd party, maybe more. Some of your mentors should be similar to the person who feels victimized, in this case a woman. So do that in real life where you know them, not online.
> What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?
Haha, that's pretty funny and apt. Lead with that when you ask for advice on this.
> I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.
That's also fine. You deserve to have your concerns heard. When someone else is the first to raise a concern with you, it's necessary to listen to them first. Then when they indicate they feel understood (you can ask them directly), you can follow with your concern.
In this case you ask at least one 3rd party, maybe more. Some of your mentors should be similar to the person who feels victimized, in this case a woman. So do that in real life where you know them, not online.
> What if it's something as innocuous as "low-hanging fruit", and, a colleague is offended by that?
Haha, that's pretty funny and apt. Lead with that when you ask for advice on this.
> I feel victimised, and they feel victimised.
That's also fine. You deserve to have your concerns heard. When someone else is the first to raise a concern with you, it's necessary to listen to them first. Then when they indicate they feel understood (you can ask them directly), you can follow with your concern.
Thanks for the thoughtful and considered replies, lots of food for thought! I genuinely wish to understand how to approach these issues better in terms of my own internal thought processes but also how others feel. At some point though, I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.
> I think the feelings of others have less merit than my own, I'm just unsure how to be certain of where that boundary is and want to avoid being an inconsiderate jerk at the same time.
Good news, you're on the right track. Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step. Many people don't get there.
If you're introspective, get some self help books. John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus [1] can open doors to understanding the opposite sex, even if you don't agree with everything he writes. The crux of the problem is we all assume everyone wants the same thing, and we do, but we prioritize things differently. So, people spend a lot of time giving what they want to receive because that's what they want. Then we feel empty and spent.
It's like if I like coffee and you like milk. I keep gifting you coffee and you keep gifting me milk. Neither of us "feel whole" from these transactions. The gifts don't feel thoughtful to the recipient. Meanwhile, we think we have everything we want, yet we know something's missing and we can't figure it out.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
Good news, you're on the right track. Acknowledging that there is a problem is the first step. Many people don't get there.
If you're introspective, get some self help books. John Gray's Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus [1] can open doors to understanding the opposite sex, even if you don't agree with everything he writes. The crux of the problem is we all assume everyone wants the same thing, and we do, but we prioritize things differently. So, people spend a lot of time giving what they want to receive because that's what they want. Then we feel empty and spent.
It's like if I like coffee and you like milk. I keep gifting you coffee and you keep gifting me milk. Neither of us "feel whole" from these transactions. The gifts don't feel thoughtful to the recipient. Meanwhile, we think we have everything we want, yet we know something's missing and we can't figure it out.
[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IHZ91T6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
Apple has had a notoriously secretive, paternalising, and "you will do what we say" attitude towards its users for a long time. It should be no surprise that the internal culture is not much different.
Related HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28241917
Jesus Christ that thread is a mess...
> Is this really a common thing people do? Take nude photos and leave them in the phone?
> It amazes me that people take photos of themselves naked. They will be leaked eventually.
I mean, I expected victim-blaming here on this site, but to the degree to feign surprise that people use the devices they own and control to live lives that include a sexual dimension is a new level of ridiculousness.
> Is this really a common thing people do? Take nude photos and leave them in the phone?
> It amazes me that people take photos of themselves naked. They will be leaked eventually.
I mean, I expected victim-blaming here on this site, but to the degree to feign surprise that people use the devices they own and control to live lives that include a sexual dimension is a new level of ridiculousness.
Most of the normal, non-techie folks I have talked to about this find the idea of taking nudes as scandalous and wouldn't take the risk.
I don't have a strong moral objection to using personal computing devices in that manner, but I think many people are nervous about the risks.
I don't have a strong moral objection to using personal computing devices in that manner, but I think many people are nervous about the risks.
>Most of the normal, non-techie folks I have talked to about this find the idea of taking nudes as scandalous and wouldn't take the risk.
Damn near every person I've ever met in my age group who has used a smartphone or computer has used it for every aspect of their personal lives to include the sexual parts of their lives. There is an expectation of privacy that average folks have on their devices. It's where they search for their most sensitive medical information, search for relationship advice, watch porn, and explore their curiosities without censorship.
I'm not sure where you are finding these puritan self-censoring non-techies who treat their devices as open books, but I've certainly never met them.
Damn near every person I've ever met in my age group who has used a smartphone or computer has used it for every aspect of their personal lives to include the sexual parts of their lives. There is an expectation of privacy that average folks have on their devices. It's where they search for their most sensitive medical information, search for relationship advice, watch porn, and explore their curiosities without censorship.
I'm not sure where you are finding these puritan self-censoring non-techies who treat their devices as open books, but I've certainly never met them.
Heck, I am a male, over forty, and there are nudes of me in my phone.
Sad to find out I am not normal!
> Damn near every person I've ever met in my age group who has used a smartphone or computer has used it for every aspect of their personal lives to include the sexual parts of their lives...I'm not sure where you are finding these puritan self-censoring non-techies who treat their devices as open books, but I've certainly never met them.
Wow, you (and plenty of other people) seem awfully defensive at the idea that not every social group shares the same norms as the groups you belong to. I wasn't even making a normative claim (or at least not a very strong one) just a personal observation.
I agree that smartphones are intensely personal devices, and that people should have a reasonable expectation of privacy. But there's more to be concerned about than just what corporations or governments can do by following the rules. I would say the average person who doesn't take nudes might be just as concerned about an angry ex, or "hackers", or just accidentally bringing them up while they show someone pictures of their new house (or whatever) as they are about Apple or the USG.
They might not even have a specified threat model, they might just really nervous about the idea of those pictures being shared forever on the internet.
Wow, you (and plenty of other people) seem awfully defensive at the idea that not every social group shares the same norms as the groups you belong to. I wasn't even making a normative claim (or at least not a very strong one) just a personal observation.
I agree that smartphones are intensely personal devices, and that people should have a reasonable expectation of privacy. But there's more to be concerned about than just what corporations or governments can do by following the rules. I would say the average person who doesn't take nudes might be just as concerned about an angry ex, or "hackers", or just accidentally bringing them up while they show someone pictures of their new house (or whatever) as they are about Apple or the USG.
They might not even have a specified threat model, they might just really nervous about the idea of those pictures being shared forever on the internet.
I think it is a perception vs reality. I think you are right, but the key point is, many people won't admit they've used their phones in the manner. But just because they say that does not mean it is truth.
This is a company phone.
The company also heavily pushes you towards using that corporate phone.
Huh? It’s a company phone. If they push you to use it, that’s why they have it to you.
If you have naked pictures of yourself on your corporate phone that’s 100% your fault.
If you have naked pictures of yourself on your corporate phone that’s 100% your fault.
Do we have proofs that’s the case? (I.e: that Apple pushes to use same account for work and private life) That has been repeated multiple times but I haven’t seen something that could confirm it.
That’s another way to write can not prevent you from having a personal phone and using that one for intimate things.
How old are your friends? For younger generations it would be weird not to have nudes on your phone.
Early thirties on average. I'm young enough that sending nudes on phones was a thing (if not necessarily a big thing) in high school.
The thing is, if someone has nudes of you on their phone, there's a non-zero chance those nudes will end up on the Internet. Maybe you like your odds, but plenty of people dont.
The thing is, if someone has nudes of you on their phone, there's a non-zero chance those nudes will end up on the Internet. Maybe you like your odds, but plenty of people dont.
Most of the normal, non-techie folks I know use non end to end encrypted chats to send nudes. I had to convince them whatsapp was better than snapchat. Maybe people have different feelings based on if they grew up with technology.
To note, nudes don't need to be sexual. Someone dieting and taking naked photos every day would be a normal thing to do, for instance.
There must thousands of other reasons someone could take nude photos of themselves on devices they assume only them has access to.
There must thousands of other reasons someone could take nude photos of themselves on devices they assume only them has access to.
Yet they wouldn't be surprised that the devices are used to download nudes of others! There's a consumer-only angle here that's interesting.
She did not own or control this device. According to article it was a work phone.
I'm pretty sure she controlled it.
As soon as Apple enables scanning, no one controls their iPhone anymore.
The whole context here is that Apple strongly discourages its employees from having a separate work and personal phone.
Which, as an Apple employee, is bollocks. I did a quick straw-poll of people I know at Apple - everyone had both work and personal appleids. I asked because I saw the reporting about how “Apple dont let you have separate ids”, and I have had separate ids for the best part of two decades.
Perhaps it’s a new policy, thought I, but that turned out not to be the case either. Both old and new employees routinely kept life at home separate from life at work, because presumably they see the benefits of that.
I’ve got a personal phone, and I’ve got 5 or 6 work phones/I-devices. I’ve got a personal apple-ID which still uses @mac.com, and I’ve got several @icloud.com accounts I use for testing.
Perhaps it’s a new policy, thought I, but that turned out not to be the case either. Both old and new employees routinely kept life at home separate from life at work, because presumably they see the benefits of that.
I’ve got a personal phone, and I’ve got 5 or 6 work phones/I-devices. I’ve got a personal apple-ID which still uses @mac.com, and I’ve got several @icloud.com accounts I use for testing.
You know, If my job tried to actively discourage me from having a two separate phones while retaining the right to search a work phone. I would take that as a warning to absolutely keep two devices and not let them touch my personal device.
Work managed workstations can log every process and command you run on them.
All work IM and emails you send are recorded.
Every URL you visit from your work machine is logged using NTLM auth discovered user name.
Think about all that information and what your employer could take out of context.
Keep your work and personal life separate regardless of the company.
All work IM and emails you send are recorded.
Every URL you visit from your work machine is logged using NTLM auth discovered user name.
Think about all that information and what your employer could take out of context.
Keep your work and personal life separate regardless of the company.
exactly. work is for work devices. personal is personal devices and try to keep the contact between them as small as possible
It would be an encouragement to find another employer.
Wait what? Really? Why?
no that's not true. someone who said they were working for apple contradicted that fact in the other thread.
i personally find the claims weird and have never seen it anywhere. my experience is that some employees choose to use company devices as personal devices. or personal accounts as company accounts, etc.
again, the way things are today, i don't expect many apple employees to come forward and tell us the way things are.
i personally find the claims weird and have never seen it anywhere. my experience is that some employees choose to use company devices as personal devices. or personal accounts as company accounts, etc.
again, the way things are today, i don't expect many apple employees to come forward and tell us the way things are.
On a company phone? You’d have to be nuts to do that.
Indeed, I discussed this with a couple of people and their reaction was the same.
Wait til they find out that people take these photos with intention to send them to those they are fond of.
It hasn’t been established that she’s a victim of anything. Sounds more like accuser blaming.
> but to the degree to feign surprise that people use the devices they own and control to live lives that include a sexual dimension is a new level of ridiculousness.
The company I work for made it outright clear that while I could unlock my privately owned phone for business access, they would take complete control of it and install monitoring software in order to protect company data. I would have lost any pretense of privacy if I signed up to that without getting myself a second, non-business, phone. I didn't sign up since it just would have reduced my free time even more, but I know plenty of people with separate business and private phones.
The only surprising thing would be if apple wasn't just as upfront about the complete lack of privacy involved with a company phone.
The company I work for made it outright clear that while I could unlock my privately owned phone for business access, they would take complete control of it and install monitoring software in order to protect company data. I would have lost any pretense of privacy if I signed up to that without getting myself a second, non-business, phone. I didn't sign up since it just would have reduced my free time even more, but I know plenty of people with separate business and private phones.
The only surprising thing would be if apple wasn't just as upfront about the complete lack of privacy involved with a company phone.
Would you store nude photos of yourself on your company laptop?
This is incorrect. The photos ended up on the phone because she synced her personal iCloud.
In what world is it a good idea to take nude selfies on the same device that you use to take pictures of the whiteboard after technical meetings? A device that will be full of internal apps (to connect to Apple VPN, to see shuttle schedules, internal bug tracker, daily menus) not to mention the device that contains all your work emails, all your work contacts, and all your work events.
Pro-tip: don't take a picture of your tickly parts on a device that is one mis-click away from sharing to your entire team.
And don't freak out when you have to turn over your phone, untouched, if it's required for legal retention. In fact, retention policy is part of the mandatory training -- she knew what might happen with that device, but just ignored it.
Pro-tip: don't take a picture of your tickly parts on a device that is one mis-click away from sharing to your entire team.
And don't freak out when you have to turn over your phone, untouched, if it's required for legal retention. In fact, retention policy is part of the mandatory training -- she knew what might happen with that device, but just ignored it.
Better thread (your thread was flagged): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28241753
She leaked internal IP.
She lied about being doxxed on Blind.
She asked for paid leave and claimed it was forced on her.
She asked for an exit package spanning 18 months covering her entire salary, RSU value, and benefits to leave.
She clearly doesn't have a lawyer, so I'd guess all of her claims are entirely baseless.
She is a classic cow and belongs on kiwifarms.
She lied about being doxxed on Blind.
She asked for paid leave and claimed it was forced on her.
She asked for an exit package spanning 18 months covering her entire salary, RSU value, and benefits to leave.
She clearly doesn't have a lawyer, so I'd guess all of her claims are entirely baseless.
She is a classic cow and belongs on kiwifarms.
>She clearly doesn't have a lawyer, so I'd guess all of her claims are entirely baseless.
The irony is: she's a law student graduating next year...
How terrifying.
The irony is: she's a law student graduating next year...
How terrifying.
I had to look up what kiwi farms is -- a site used to harass people. Saying she belongs there seriously undermines your credibility. And what's a "classic cow"? Is that just a pejorative for some type of woman?
kiwifarms is a forum where people laugh at other people usually internet famous people that make a fool of themselves on the internet. The rule is that you don't interact with the subject. There are a lot of people visiting the site and you can't control what everyone is doing but from the few threads that I have watch I did not see any call to harass or interact in any way with the subject.
Before posting a comment you see the forum guidelines that includes: "No trolling plans. We are not an autistic Illuminati. If you embarrass yourself or the forum trying to troll, we will ridicule you."
The subject of laughter is called a "cow" because it provides laughter i.e. "milk" through his/her action on the internet. The term cow is used regardless of gender, sex, age, etc.
Before posting a comment you see the forum guidelines that includes: "No trolling plans. We are not an autistic Illuminati. If you embarrass yourself or the forum trying to troll, we will ridicule you."
The subject of laughter is called a "cow" because it provides laughter i.e. "milk" through his/her action on the internet. The term cow is used regardless of gender, sex, age, etc.
I don’t think the outcome is that surprising. Regardless of the merits of this person’s complains toward Apple, it’s hard to see an employer put up with this kind on incessant broadcast to the public place about sensitive matters.
The adult way to handle this would be to complain internally, and it it fails go public once, and then move on to either discuss it in good faith with Apple or litigation.
What would Apple have to win with her? Looking at the Twitter stream I feel like no matter what they do, it will never be enough. So firing her is the only possible avenue. At this stage the price of litigation is probably less than the reputational costs in the long run.
The whole episode about her boobs is mesmerizing. I’m not saying the attitude of Apple sort of enticing their employees to use to personal accounts is not problematic. But even my horny self would think twice about sending a nude using my work phone. And if I did, I suppose I would come back to my senses eventually and delete those. She’s a grown up, work at a tech company, and has heard of fappening.
The adult way to handle this would be to complain internally, and it it fails go public once, and then move on to either discuss it in good faith with Apple or litigation.
What would Apple have to win with her? Looking at the Twitter stream I feel like no matter what they do, it will never be enough. So firing her is the only possible avenue. At this stage the price of litigation is probably less than the reputational costs in the long run.
The whole episode about her boobs is mesmerizing. I’m not saying the attitude of Apple sort of enticing their employees to use to personal accounts is not problematic. But even my horny self would think twice about sending a nude using my work phone. And if I did, I suppose I would come back to my senses eventually and delete those. She’s a grown up, work at a tech company, and has heard of fappening.
Why doesn't apple allow 2 profiles (work and personal) on iphones yet? I have personal and work PCs/laptops, and that's fine because I use those devices for hours at a time. I also have a personal and work iphone and I HATE it. It's inconvenient, I'm constantly changing where headphones are connected, gave up using airpods (not fun to unpair and pair when your devices use different apple IDs) and gave using Apple watch for notifications (can only connect it to one phone). I would be OK allowing my employer to restrict, wipe or whatever a work profile on my personal phone.
Apple, you should hire me as a senior engineering PM. I will take Ashley's pay and cause no trouble. Look forward to seeing you on Monday.
Any info on what Superfund site Apple is built on?
Probably this one https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0...
https://disasterarea.home.blog/2019/07/12/apple-headquarters...
Interesting. Trichloroethene.
Interesting. Trichloroethene.
TCE contamination of former semiconductor manufacturing sites in Silicon Valley is extremely common.
It is no secret. The Infinite Loop campus and the new campus are both on superfund sites. There are signs posted in the lobby ways exiting to the parking lots outside and to the inner campus. I think people are so numbed by seeing Prop 65 warnings on everything, the signs may not even register. We were told the IL campus was a superfund site during the first day of orientation. I have no idea if this is the case for the new campus.
The whole area has numerous superfund sites, all which have buildings constructed on them.
The whole area has numerous superfund sites, all which have buildings constructed on them.
I spoke to their environmental manager as I was concerned. They've done a lot for Apple Park, don't remember all the details, but it's fair to say they've spent a ton of money on it.
I have never heard of such a term, and assumed it was something to do with dodgy purchasing practices with a name like that.
After reading that not only is massively polluted locations that have no plans to clean up common in the US, but also fair game to build upon, it brings up a whole new level of questioning corporate ethics.
After reading that not only is massively polluted locations that have no plans to clean up common in the US, but also fair game to build upon, it brings up a whole new level of questioning corporate ethics.
Wait until you find out they (re)built most modern European cities on top of known unexploded bomb sites.
Given that I don’t see news about WWII bombs exploding in European cities recently, I suspect industrial pollution which emits VOCs, and severely contaminates the soil and groundwater, is a greater health risk.
Luckily they don’t explode very often, but they’re found on a regular basis: https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210520-wwii-bomb-fou...
yes, but superfund sites affect your precious bodily fluids in a communist way.
[deleted]
https://www.ashleygjovik.com/ashleys-apple-story.html
July 2, 2021
In a heavy redacted email she was exposed to a substance and want to know "what chemicals & at what levels, for future cancer monitoring, etc." It made me curios what she was exposed too.
July 20, 2021.
Here I think she is accusing someone from apple of smuggling and "violating of the US embargo & sanctions against <redacted>" I assume is Iran by the length of the redacted text.
July 28, 2021.
She wants to transfer to ER and is refused 42 times. If she would have been transferred to ER she would have publish every complaint she investigated and used everything for here own lawsuit and her own cause.
July 29, 2021
Long email were she is unhappy with the investigation and what the conclusion of each investigation to be sorted by area of the law to route them to different lawyers. In the list we get toxic tort but no details.
I think any health issue that she will have in the future would result in a lawsuit against apple.
Aug 6th, 2021
Long list of articles were she was mentioned and tweets. She talks about Apple not doing exposure testing but nothing else regarding the chemicals.
August 14th 2021
Post a picture of a colleagues office with 5 bottles of alcohol and 3 bullet cases with the tip (the bullet) removed and 1 old musket ammunition. Not one of the items is live ammunition but she say it is live ammunition.
She took a picture of a colleague looking at a rifle specs. At this point it would not amaze me if she requested the colleague to show here the gun specs and took the picture and used it against him.
She complains that she is "constantly attacked" with Nerf guns and dodgeballs by here colleagues and mentions the rifle and bullets post trying to make a connection. She also says she has PTSD from past violence. She post a mail exchange were it is clear everyone is having fun even here but now she uses that to make a point of violence and danger.
"I do feel like it's me against three 13 year old boys a lot of the time. I think I just need to out mischief them - hide or boobytrap their toys maybe" - mail from the exchange with here boss. Sorry I don't see the PTSD inducing horrors in here email. In this email she understands that everything is a joke and even participates in the joke by wanting to set boobytraps on there toys. If we would apply the same logic that she apply then she is a domestic terrorist trying to set up IEDs at Apple.
She complains on twitter more about the nerf gun war but says nothing in the emails and even participates in the nerf gun war.
We find out that she has a "2015 - Assault & Battery" folder that she shared with Apple last month and she is furious that the ER team don't want to investigate anything before 2017.
For some reason she is challenging NorthropGrumman (3rd largest weapons manuf in the world)
She complains about physical safety and when here boss give here some good advice about physical safety she uses that against him.
Every interaction with here colleagues is used against Apple and said colleague.
Mr. Bullet -that what she called one of the guys had a ticket named "Make Ashley's Life a Living Hell" in 2015. I am amazed how she hold on to it for years and complained about it now.
So from 2015 until now, every interaction with here colleagues was documented and now it is used against them. Everything is overdramatized. If you would blur out Apple from here tweets you would think that she works for some drug cartel.
July 2, 2021
In a heavy redacted email she was exposed to a substance and want to know "what chemicals & at what levels, for future cancer monitoring, etc." It made me curios what she was exposed too.
July 20, 2021.
Here I think she is accusing someone from apple of smuggling and "violating of the US embargo & sanctions against <redacted>" I assume is Iran by the length of the redacted text.
July 28, 2021.
She wants to transfer to ER and is refused 42 times. If she would have been transferred to ER she would have publish every complaint she investigated and used everything for here own lawsuit and her own cause.
July 29, 2021
Long email were she is unhappy with the investigation and what the conclusion of each investigation to be sorted by area of the law to route them to different lawyers. In the list we get toxic tort but no details.
I think any health issue that she will have in the future would result in a lawsuit against apple.
Aug 6th, 2021
Long list of articles were she was mentioned and tweets. She talks about Apple not doing exposure testing but nothing else regarding the chemicals.
August 14th 2021
Post a picture of a colleagues office with 5 bottles of alcohol and 3 bullet cases with the tip (the bullet) removed and 1 old musket ammunition. Not one of the items is live ammunition but she say it is live ammunition.
She took a picture of a colleague looking at a rifle specs. At this point it would not amaze me if she requested the colleague to show here the gun specs and took the picture and used it against him.
She complains that she is "constantly attacked" with Nerf guns and dodgeballs by here colleagues and mentions the rifle and bullets post trying to make a connection. She also says she has PTSD from past violence. She post a mail exchange were it is clear everyone is having fun even here but now she uses that to make a point of violence and danger.
"I do feel like it's me against three 13 year old boys a lot of the time. I think I just need to out mischief them - hide or boobytrap their toys maybe" - mail from the exchange with here boss. Sorry I don't see the PTSD inducing horrors in here email. In this email she understands that everything is a joke and even participates in the joke by wanting to set boobytraps on there toys. If we would apply the same logic that she apply then she is a domestic terrorist trying to set up IEDs at Apple.
She complains on twitter more about the nerf gun war but says nothing in the emails and even participates in the nerf gun war.
We find out that she has a "2015 - Assault & Battery" folder that she shared with Apple last month and she is furious that the ER team don't want to investigate anything before 2017.
For some reason she is challenging NorthropGrumman (3rd largest weapons manuf in the world)
She complains about physical safety and when here boss give here some good advice about physical safety she uses that against him.
Every interaction with here colleagues is used against Apple and said colleague.
Mr. Bullet -that what she called one of the guys had a ticket named "Make Ashley's Life a Living Hell" in 2015. I am amazed how she hold on to it for years and complained about it now.
So from 2015 until now, every interaction with here colleagues was documented and now it is used against them. Everything is overdramatized. If you would blur out Apple from here tweets you would think that she works for some drug cartel.
[deleted]
Apple is lucky this happened in the US and not the EU.
Wellll we don’t have many protections but we do have the NLRA.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...
Not sure if she stepped outside the bounds of concerted activity though.
https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em...
Not sure if she stepped outside the bounds of concerted activity though.
Seems like her career is done
She tweeted about making the dean's list (or similar) at her law school, so perhaps not.
Allegedly? Here it is
https://twitter.com/ashleygjovik/status/1435421599826518025?...
In plain English the footnote says not to leak the email and she did it anyway, doxxing a fellow employee. Absolutely grounds for dismissal. Sure Apple has discretion, but why would they exercise it for an employee publicly embarrassing the company at every opportunity? She did this to herself, don’t blame Apple.
The thing she leaked was in the verge article on August 30th. She leaked an internal tool's name, codename, and screenshots and videos of it. It has nothing to do with any of the emails about her workplace issues.
She redacted the name so it isn’t doxxing.
Well someone at Employee Relations had a slot at 10.30PT filled on the company calendar. So it’s doxxing.
Diversity privileges
How dare Apple not work the way I want them to!
Holy smokes, there are some tone-deaf comments in here
I do envision Ashley lawyers requesting the data on:
- how many Apple employees looked at Ashley's boobs in Apple's permanent evidence locker
- what the reason for each occurence
- what their names and titles
- how many Apple employees looked at Ashley's boobs in Apple's permanent evidence locker
- what the reason for each occurence
- what their names and titles
I suspect the response will be:
- 0
- N/A
- N/A
- 0
- N/A
- N/A
If the only information she's leaking is that she's in a hostile workplace it seems like Apple is in the wrong here.
If you hired a landscaper to mow your lawn and trim your hedges, or a pool service to clean your pool, and they started bitching about the fact that your house was too close to power lines, yet they insisted on keeping their job and pay, and you’d better do something about the power lines, would that be OK?
There were headlines and outrage about her being placed on administrative leave by Apple recently. Reading the finer details, it turns out she requested to be placed on leave (From the article: "She was placed on administrative leave in early August while Apple investigated some of these concerns — a placement she says she requested as a last resort.")
She has a dedicated form on her website for press to fill out to request an interview with her. ( https://www.ashleygjovik.com/press.html )
She maintains a website called iWhistleblower ( https://www.iwhistleblower.org/ ) with details about past cases involving Apple and links encouraging people to report Apple information to different regulatory bodies.
Her personal website leads with "Apple Labor Advocacy" as well as "Public Health Advocacy" where she describes how she thinks there might be a toxic waste container somewhere on the property of her old 3rd-floor apartment. She believes it was causing her blood pressure and heart rate to change, according to monitors that she wore. She published photos of herself wearing a blood pressure monitoring cuff and her story here: https://sfbayview.com/2021/03/i-thought-i-was-dying-my-apart...
While I fully agree that all allegations should be given due process and properly investigated, I get nervous when someone is visibly invested in building a personal brand on social media around being a victim. The story about the toxic waste apartment, the story about Apple's lawyers needing her work phone for an investigation, and the story about her alleged harassment at Apple all happened within the past 6 months. Her entire social media presence appears to be built around capitalizing on these stories.