Court rules for Florida governor, reinstates ban on mask mandates in FL schools(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Court rules for Florida governor, reinstates ban on mask mandates in FL schools
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/appeals-court-rules-favor-florida-governor-reinstates-ban-mask-mandates-florida-2021-09-10/
72 comments
No matter what position one holds on the matter, it's always impressive to witness the multi-layer democracy process in the US.
Not many countries in the world would have a dispute between a governor, individual school districts, non-profit organizations and judges.
The US is a very non-ideal country, but it's a working one.
Not many countries in the world would have a dispute between a governor, individual school districts, non-profit organizations and judges.
The US is a very non-ideal country, but it's a working one.
>The US is a very non-ideal country, but it's a working one.
The US works because of the multilayer democracy process.
The combination of federalism and separation of powers in the US is slow, by design. It provides multiple layers of protection against bad ideas. It allows for the governance of a continent-sized country composed of 50 semi-sovereign entities, each acting as mini laboratories for good ideas that can spread elsewhere and to Washington DC.
The US works because of the multilayer democracy process.
The combination of federalism and separation of powers in the US is slow, by design. It provides multiple layers of protection against bad ideas. It allows for the governance of a continent-sized country composed of 50 semi-sovereign entities, each acting as mini laboratories for good ideas that can spread elsewhere and to Washington DC.
Many other places work better without this system, so I'm not sure your conclusion supports your premise.
Feel free to name the country with more than 100 million people, a continent-sized geography, and a multitude of ethnicities that works "better" than the US. Heck, raise the minimum population to 130 million and use that as the sole criterion.
To put another way, every one of the countries with a GDP per capita (PPP-adjusted) (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...>) higher than the US has a population smaller than that of Los Angeles County.
To put another way, every one of the countries with a GDP per capita (PPP-adjusted) (<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...>) higher than the US has a population smaller than that of Los Angeles County.
> The US is a very non-ideal country, but it's a working one.
In many cases it definitely has strong democracy baked into it, much more than the faux-democracy presented in almost every other country in the world. But I wouldn't call it "working." The US has significant, deep-rooted problems from housing to safety -- and US foreign policy, even towards US citizens, is rotten to the core.
In many cases it definitely has strong democracy baked into it, much more than the faux-democracy presented in almost every other country in the world. But I wouldn't call it "working." The US has significant, deep-rooted problems from housing to safety -- and US foreign policy, even towards US citizens, is rotten to the core.
It's a working one because Amazon kept packages coming to your door during the pandemic and the government accelerated the development of vaccines with Warp Speed and because scientists did their job, not because school teachers and governors block each other over minuscule nonsense.
The US works despite it's multi-layer democracy, not because of it. All the parts that work aren't democratic.
The US works despite it's multi-layer democracy, not because of it. All the parts that work aren't democratic.
This is quite correct. All of the parts of the United States that actually work are absolute monarchies.
But you are not required to be under the full rule of the "kings" and "queens". I don't have much problem doing business with a "monarchy" if you want to call it this way. The problem is when all these "monarchies" are reporting to an ultimate absolute ruler you can't escape...
Yes. You're a bit vague in what you mean here, but I will assume that you mean a private monopoly like Google or the Coke-Pepsi duopoly.
I don't necessarily disagree with your take, but I take the same concept and run it one step further up the chain as an indictment of government as it is practiced today.
For example, we gave the responsibility of arbitrating disputes in a just way to a single monopolistic entity and then become surprised when this entity provides less justice (harsher sentences for drug crimes, racial/gender bias, etc.) for a higher cost (effectively impossible to represent yourself, lengthy trial periods, arbitration process that take so long and cost so much that 'lawfare' is a common parlance).
Monopolies are bad full stop. It is simply harder to replace the governmental kind.
I don't necessarily disagree with your take, but I take the same concept and run it one step further up the chain as an indictment of government as it is practiced today.
For example, we gave the responsibility of arbitrating disputes in a just way to a single monopolistic entity and then become surprised when this entity provides less justice (harsher sentences for drug crimes, racial/gender bias, etc.) for a higher cost (effectively impossible to represent yourself, lengthy trial periods, arbitration process that take so long and cost so much that 'lawfare' is a common parlance).
Monopolies are bad full stop. It is simply harder to replace the governmental kind.
Democracy is a soft form of communism. So no wonder the democratic parts don’t work.
>The US works despite it's multi-layer democracy, not because of it.
It really doesnt sounds like it. Why would countries want endless disputes between different levels of their governments? How does that help anyone!?
FWIW, the mask mandate ban appears to have precisely zero effect on the COVID situation in Florida, which has been steadily improving ever since schools opened. Here's a blog facetiously suggesting that not wearing masks in school caused the improvement, and while it's obviously written tongue in cheek, from a stats/causality point of view it's pretty much indistinguishable from a lot of arguments for masks.
https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2021/09/10/science-opening...
For better or worse, while we know properly fitted N95s etc work, it's starting to look like "casual" mask wearing (fabric masks loosely worn and taken off regularly for eating etc) is mostly just pointless hygiene theater at this point.
https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2021/09/10/science-opening...
For better or worse, while we know properly fitted N95s etc work, it's starting to look like "casual" mask wearing (fabric masks loosely worn and taken off regularly for eating etc) is mostly just pointless hygiene theater at this point.
Theater, like security theater, is implementing something that doesn't work but doing it anyway for appearances. Masks work as you say. The fact that people don't want to wear them not is not hygiene theater, it's non-compliance.
More to your point, of course the mask ban had little effect in FL when it's on-again-off-again and challenged in courts. The situation is changing and confusing, so people will do what they want. The bigger factor is that covid is currently decreasing everywhere in the US as it has with previous waves.
Children in schools has never been a outsized contributor to covid numbers so school starting shouldn't be expected to have a major impact. (Children are getting covid in greater percentages because they are yet to be vaccinated.)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-ar...
More to your point, of course the mask ban had little effect in FL when it's on-again-off-again and challenged in courts. The situation is changing and confusing, so people will do what they want. The bigger factor is that covid is currently decreasing everywhere in the US as it has with previous waves.
Children in schools has never been a outsized contributor to covid numbers so school starting shouldn't be expected to have a major impact. (Children are getting covid in greater percentages because they are yet to be vaccinated.)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/schools-ar...
>The fact that people don't want to wear them not is not hygiene theater, it's non-compliance.
Cloth masks are Hygiene theater. The rules that allow cloth masks and neck gaiters and all sorts of stuff is all theater and are asking compliance for the sake of compliance.
N95/N99/k95 masks are not. These have effect.
Not wearing a mask at all, is non-compliance. But when the rules were changing (first it was don't wear a mask then changed to wear one), and when the rules about the masks aren't really protecting people by allowing cloth masks and gaiters, you're just giving those who already don't trust authorities in this matter more fuel for the fire.
>Children are getting covid in greater percentages because they are yet to be vaccinated.
And one wonders if that's a great idea
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v...
> The study suggests that the rate of CAE was 3.7 to 6.1 times higher among healthy 12-15-year-old boys than their risk of hospitalisation from Covid-19 in 120 days as of August 21. The rate of CAE was 2.6-4.3-fold higher at times of high weekly hospitalization risk, such as during January 2021.
> “For boys 16-17 without medical comorbidities, the rate of CAE is currently 2.1 to 3.5 times higher than their 120-day Covid-19 hospitalization risk, and 1.5 to 2.5 times higher at times of high weekly Covid-19 hospitalization,” the study says.
Cloth masks are Hygiene theater. The rules that allow cloth masks and neck gaiters and all sorts of stuff is all theater and are asking compliance for the sake of compliance.
N95/N99/k95 masks are not. These have effect.
Not wearing a mask at all, is non-compliance. But when the rules were changing (first it was don't wear a mask then changed to wear one), and when the rules about the masks aren't really protecting people by allowing cloth masks and gaiters, you're just giving those who already don't trust authorities in this matter more fuel for the fire.
>Children are getting covid in greater percentages because they are yet to be vaccinated.
And one wonders if that's a great idea
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v...
> The study suggests that the rate of CAE was 3.7 to 6.1 times higher among healthy 12-15-year-old boys than their risk of hospitalisation from Covid-19 in 120 days as of August 21. The rate of CAE was 2.6-4.3-fold higher at times of high weekly hospitalization risk, such as during January 2021.
> “For boys 16-17 without medical comorbidities, the rate of CAE is currently 2.1 to 3.5 times higher than their 120-day Covid-19 hospitalization risk, and 1.5 to 2.5 times higher at times of high weekly Covid-19 hospitalization,” the study says.
>the COVID situation in Florida, which has been steadily improving ever since schools opened
There have been articles about how Florida recently switched to reporting deaths with the date of death, so it seems that it will continually appear that the rate plummeted recently. As time goes by, though, the graph will be filled in. Maybe people are being deceived by this.
>pointless hygiene theater at this point
You can be blasé about covid-19 and masks or not, you can be distrustful of all the random "experts" or not, but if you are, then it's "pointless theater" squared to spend time, money, and energy arguing, debating publicly, and fighting in court on exactly what we should do. It doesn't matter!
There have been articles about how Florida recently switched to reporting deaths with the date of death, so it seems that it will continually appear that the rate plummeted recently. As time goes by, though, the graph will be filled in. Maybe people are being deceived by this.
>pointless hygiene theater at this point
You can be blasé about covid-19 and masks or not, you can be distrustful of all the random "experts" or not, but if you are, then it's "pointless theater" squared to spend time, money, and energy arguing, debating publicly, and fighting in court on exactly what we should do. It doesn't matter!
Psychological harm caused by forcing mask on young children is well documented. So forcing something on them that has no positive effect matters a lot.
More than an active shooter drill?
They've experienced greater psychological harm by having their parents and grandparents get COVID.
Basically the only place masks are a good idea is where the captive audience can't be vaccinated, which happens to be schools.
Basically the only place masks are a good idea is where the captive audience can't be vaccinated, which happens to be schools.
In the US somewhere around 50,000 children lost a parent or guardian. Couple of million lost a grandparent. I've known a higher than average number of people who lost a parent when they were children or teenagers. That's bad in a lot of different ways and has a life long impact. So I find people trivializing that to be gross and utterly appalling.
It is tragic but what this has to do with forcing kids to wear mask? Sweden hit zero COVID death months ago, even though they never closed elementary schools and did not require masks. Children bear an incredibly small health risk with respect to the virus. A recent study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics suggests “children continue to face a far greater risk of critical illness from influenza than from COVID-19.
In addition, children are unlikely to spread the virus. The WHO’s chief scientist, Soumya Swaminathan, recently told the BBC that children appear to be “less capable” of spreading the virus than adults. In addition, the WHO has not observed any significant outbreaks that can be linked to regular school attendance.
Masks help prevent the flu as well, for the record.
Given quarantine policies for exposures the easiest way to keep kids in schools is to make sure the adults around them are vaccinated and that they take precautions before then.
My state effectively hit zero Covid deaths too a few months ago and that was through vaccination.
Given quarantine policies for exposures the easiest way to keep kids in schools is to make sure the adults around them are vaccinated and that they take precautions before then.
My state effectively hit zero Covid deaths too a few months ago and that was through vaccination.
They weren't trivializing losing a parent; they were trivializing wearing a mask by comparing it to losing a parent. Or a teacher, I guess.
Citation needed. My anecdotal evidence of my four year old not giving a crap about wearing a mask disagrees with you.
I remember reading that cloth masks may even be worse than no masks because while they stop large particles they also aerosolize the virus. They provide nearly no protection for the wearer. Don’t have the reference any more as I’ve long switched to surgical/FFP2, but this matches policy in central Europe.
We're a year and half in at this point, and I've been masking throughout because I thought it would make a difference, plus I live in a country where it's compulsory anyway.
However, I've yet to see a peer-reviewed, statistically significant study about non-medical mask use in social settings having a measurable effect. If you have any pointers, I'm all ears.
However, I've yet to see a peer-reviewed, statistically significant study about non-medical mask use in social settings having a measurable effect. If you have any pointers, I'm all ears.
I found this list of 40+. The second one seems to fit your criteria https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/do-face-masks-work-her...
China has already mandated N95s, even those with the valves that aren’t allowed in much of the west. The idea I think is that they are focusing filtering inbound while cloth masks only really filter outbound (so wearing the mask protect others, vs an N95 that has a higher chance of protecting the wearer).
Florida only reports their numbers once a week now and they aren’t breaking them down by county. They look good because they decided data reporting was no longer important: https://www.newsweek.com/florida-wont-release-number-covid-d...
I guess DeSantis is taking the ostrich approach? Let’s hope this is just incompetence and not willfully trying to obscure their data. All we really know is that they keep setting records, eg record number of deaths this week https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/09/10/florida-...
Florida only reports their numbers once a week now and they aren’t breaking them down by county. They look good because they decided data reporting was no longer important: https://www.newsweek.com/florida-wont-release-number-covid-d...
I guess DeSantis is taking the ostrich approach? Let’s hope this is just incompetence and not willfully trying to obscure their data. All we really know is that they keep setting records, eg record number of deaths this week https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/09/10/florida-...
Double masking also seems very effective:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7007e1.htm
Well, case numbers have been shaky through the entire pandemic to date. Hospitalisations and deaths are categorise though to get wrong though.
> China has already mandated N95s...
The part of China that the west should be copying is the "It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it’s a good cat" approach of experimenting with policies to figure out which ones work in practice. Not the authoritarian systems underpinning the surveillance and control. More 1990 Hong Kong, less 2020 Hong Kong.
> China has already mandated N95s...
The part of China that the west should be copying is the "It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white; as long as it catches mice, it’s a good cat" approach of experimenting with policies to figure out which ones work in practice. Not the authoritarian systems underpinning the surveillance and control. More 1990 Hong Kong, less 2020 Hong Kong.
I’m not sure other stuff China does has to do with them mandating N95 masks because cloth masks are not effective enough? The parent comment makes the same observation, which isn’t invalidated by china’s authoritarian tendencies.
Where did you hear that China has mandated N95 masks? I live in Beijing and I can't say I've seen anyone wearing one. We basically have to wear the normal surgical masks when in shops, on public transport etc.
I was browsing China daily the other day:
https://govt.chinadaily.com.cn/s/202109/03/WS61397ce6498e6a1...
No cloth masks seem to be allowed.
https://govt.chinadaily.com.cn/s/202109/03/WS61397ce6498e6a1...
No cloth masks seem to be allowed.
> it's starting to look like "casual" mask wearing (fabric masks loosely worn and taken off regularly for eating etc) is mostly just pointless hygiene theater at this point.
No one has ever proven that mask mandates worked for covid, and it has been more than a year that we know that places which had a mask mandate didn't have a different trajectory that place that did, or that mask mandate didn't change the trajectory of the covid cases. So this is common knowledge at this point.
But the same way the market can stay irrational longer than you are solvable. A useless measure can stay in place longer that we know it has no effect
No one has ever proven that mask mandates worked for covid, and it has been more than a year that we know that places which had a mask mandate didn't have a different trajectory that place that did, or that mask mandate didn't change the trajectory of the covid cases. So this is common knowledge at this point.
But the same way the market can stay irrational longer than you are solvable. A useless measure can stay in place longer that we know it has no effect
> and it has been more than a year that we know that places which had a mask mandate didn't have a different trajectory that place that did, or that mask mandate didn't change the trajectory of the covid cases
Anyone who doesn't believe this might want to take a look at https://www.covidchartsquiz.com/
Anyone who doesn't believe this might want to take a look at https://www.covidchartsquiz.com/
To my knowledge, Florida recently stopped reporting all hospitalizations of children due to COVID (either 0-17 or 0-18 ages)
So I don't think
> has been steadily improving ever since schools opened.
Is as truthful as one might think.
So I don't think
> has been steadily improving ever since schools opened.
Is as truthful as one might think.
If you look at outbreak graphs in many countries, the shape of this Florida outbreak looks exactly like previous ones last year.
These outbreaks appear to be seasonal and come and go without vaccines (last year no one was vaccinated and the shape of the graphs was the same).
They also come and go without lockdowns. This is why the blog post encourages the reader (using satire) to find other mechanisms than Aquinas' prime mover theory.
These outbreaks appear to be seasonal and come and go without vaccines (last year no one was vaccinated and the shape of the graphs was the same).
They also come and go without lockdowns. This is why the blog post encourages the reader (using satire) to find other mechanisms than Aquinas' prime mover theory.
Trends and scale are not the same. One would expect a similar trend line, especially with the volume of anti-vax in this country. The volumes are significantly lower.
I can’t remember where I heard it, but some doctor was describing cloth and paper surgical mask effectiveness against Covid as “throwing a handful of sand at a chain link fence”.
N95 masks are supposed to be more like a wall. Except nobody really wears those as the cost about $2 each and you are only supposed to wear them for 3-4 days with proper sterilization between uses.
N95 masks are supposed to be more like a wall. Except nobody really wears those as the cost about $2 each and you are only supposed to wear them for 3-4 days with proper sterilization between uses.
Someone posted a facetious comment ("Stupid Chinese bat flu. Deadly enough to be problem. Not deadly enough to be solution.") in reply to an even more offensive one earlier ("Florida needs thinning out anyway" or something along those lines.) Both were quickly sent to -4 [dead] land, but I do think there's an underlying truth behind the offensive sentiment that is going unappreciated.
If we were dealing with some kind of hemorrhagic fever that spread like wildfire through all cross-sections of the population, sending dying people lurching into the street within a few hours of infection, moaning and bleeding from their eyes, there would be no controversy.
We wouldn't have antivaxxers making up all kinds of ridiculous reasons to avoid the shot, we wouldn't have state governors suing the President or vice versa, and we wouldn't think twice about yanking the broadcast licenses of any Fox or Sinclair affiliates who spread misinformation or otherwise spewed propaganda against best public health practices. We would have something to unite against, rather than something to further divide us.
But that's not what happened. The bug is bad but not that bad. It "almost never" kills children, it targets "old" or "fat" people disproportionately, and it "only" kills about 1% of patients. It is bad enough to bring out the worst differences among us, but not bad enough to make us set those differences aside.
If an enemy nation sent troops to our shores with orders to kill even 0.1% of our population, we'd all rise up to defeat them... but somehow a virus is different. The virus gets a free pass from 30%-40% of our population which is strongly (but admittedly not exclusively) correlated with a specific political party.
Makes no sense, but then, not much does these days.
If we were dealing with some kind of hemorrhagic fever that spread like wildfire through all cross-sections of the population, sending dying people lurching into the street within a few hours of infection, moaning and bleeding from their eyes, there would be no controversy.
We wouldn't have antivaxxers making up all kinds of ridiculous reasons to avoid the shot, we wouldn't have state governors suing the President or vice versa, and we wouldn't think twice about yanking the broadcast licenses of any Fox or Sinclair affiliates who spread misinformation or otherwise spewed propaganda against best public health practices. We would have something to unite against, rather than something to further divide us.
But that's not what happened. The bug is bad but not that bad. It "almost never" kills children, it targets "old" or "fat" people disproportionately, and it "only" kills about 1% of patients. It is bad enough to bring out the worst differences among us, but not bad enough to make us set those differences aside.
If an enemy nation sent troops to our shores with orders to kill even 0.1% of our population, we'd all rise up to defeat them... but somehow a virus is different. The virus gets a free pass from 30%-40% of our population which is strongly (but admittedly not exclusively) correlated with a specific political party.
Makes no sense, but then, not much does these days.
It's just below the danger threshold that would disqualify it for use as a political weapon.
2000 jumbo jets full of dead USians (and counting!) is below that threshold, which is sort of amazing to believe.
Human life is cheap to partisans there, apparently.
2000 jumbo jets full of dead USians (and counting!) is below that threshold, which is sort of amazing to believe.
Human life is cheap to partisans there, apparently.
> If we were dealing with some kind of hemorrhagic fever that spread like wildfire through all cross-sections of the population, sending dying people lurching into the street within a few hours of infection, moaning and bleeding from their eyes, there would be no controversy.
Are we sure about that? Scientific measures to control Ebola met with great resistance when they seemed to go against local cultural practices in Africa [1]. While cultural practices in the U.S. are different, I would expect some resistance here too.
> The bug is bad but not that bad. It "almost never" kills children, it targets "old" or "fat" people disproportionately
Interestingly these are demographics that seem to be somewhat over-represented in Florida given how many retirees move there.
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709130/
Are we sure about that? Scientific measures to control Ebola met with great resistance when they seemed to go against local cultural practices in Africa [1]. While cultural practices in the U.S. are different, I would expect some resistance here too.
> The bug is bad but not that bad. It "almost never" kills children, it targets "old" or "fat" people disproportionately
Interestingly these are demographics that seem to be somewhat over-represented in Florida given how many retirees move there.
[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4709130/
If an enemy nation sent troops to our shores with orders to kill even 0.1% of our population, we'd all rise up to defeat them
Interesting analogy to choose on today of all days. 0.1% is 330,000. How about 0.001%?
Pedant alert: yes obviously they were technically non-state actors.
Interesting analogy to choose on today of all days. 0.1% is 330,000. How about 0.001%?
Pedant alert: yes obviously they were technically non-state actors.
To be fair one doesn't invite further attacks from a virus, by ignoring somewhat-bad-but-not-that-bad ones. They're not directly comparable. It's a bit like comparing your adversary checking your king, with an earthquake upsetting the whole chess board. You act against the former—you weather the latter.
(this should not be taken to mean I judge[d] the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan justifiable or desirable, now or when they started)
(this should not be taken to mean I judge[d] the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan justifiable or desirable, now or when they started)
> and it "only" kills about 1% of patients.
IFR estimates are actually down to 0.1%, putting it on-par with the flu, but the flu is worse because it hits kids just as hard as the elderly.
IFR estimates are actually down to 0.1%, putting it on-par with the flu, but the flu is worse because it hits kids just as hard as the elderly.
Interesting. I guess the issue with COVID is it’s more contagious than the flu?
People have been vaccinated from the flu. Before flu vaccination every flu year was about as bad as the last covid year, with close to 1% of the entire population dying. That was just life, so when there was a vaccine that meant the flu no longer had high risk of death people were really excited to get vaccinated.
Regarding political affliation it’s interesting to see how many pro-lifers are now pro-choice and vice versa.
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I'm curious if this ruling would have any impact on a district's ability to enforce a uniform policy/dress code. If a district doesn't have the authority to require masks, how can they have the authority to require that students tuck in their shirts?
Governor explicitly prohibited mandating wearing masks. He did not prohibit mandating dress code.
Right, but the executive order issued doesn't usurp the authority of a school district to require a dress code, and as such masks could technically still be required under that authority. I believe this is what's happening in some Texas schools as well.
I read that was happening in some Florida counties (I read it about a month ago, right as school began there). I didn't hear how it had gone over with the governor.
I think if you say "we won't fund you if you mandate masks," the mechanism for mandating them probably isn't very relevant. Mandating masks via dress code policy is still mandating masks.
I think if you say "we won't fund you if you mandate masks," the mechanism for mandating them probably isn't very relevant. Mandating masks via dress code policy is still mandating masks.
FFS, does everything need to go to the courts...
Also notably,
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/08/1035157226/miami-covid-19-dea...