Questions as pot comes to work(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Questions as pot comes to work
https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-it-ever-ok-to-get-stoned-with-a-client-and-other-questions-as-pot-comes-to-work-11632907802
50 comments
https://archive.ph/KK7fS
As pot comes to work? Drugs have always been a part of workplace culture, the only difference is now it's legal. Just because cocaine, mdma, and LSD are illegal doesn't mean they aren't part of work culture. Many, many companies take the stance of "do what you need to do to bond with your clients, we'll look the other way as long as it doesn't create an issue".
Except it's not legal. It's still a federal Schedule I drug, so if you or your clients are involved in a heavily regulated industry, your company is taking its life in its hands, no matter how much it looks like everyone is willing to look the other way for now. Why do people forget this??
"Drugs on Parade!" didn't send the right message in A/B testing :P
[deleted]
At least in Europe alcohol used to be a huge part of work culture, and smoking inside while working was common up until about 30 years ago.
Drugs in the work place aren't new. No company that I know of has a coffein limit though, even thought it is also a drug.
Drugs in the work place aren't new. No company that I know of has a coffein limit though, even thought it is also a drug.
The questions have already been answered, yeah?
Medical marijuana should be treated like any other medication.
Recreational marijuana should be treated just like any other legal drug aka alcohol or sugar that employees consume.
If you can't do those things and perform your job safely and effectively, then disallow it. Contextually, some cultures (even by region in the US) respond differently to having a drink at lunch. Your business probably knows which clients will respond negatively and which will not be phased. The same logic applies with weed.
Medical marijuana should be treated like any other medication.
Recreational marijuana should be treated just like any other legal drug aka alcohol or sugar that employees consume.
If you can't do those things and perform your job safely and effectively, then disallow it. Contextually, some cultures (even by region in the US) respond differently to having a drink at lunch. Your business probably knows which clients will respond negatively and which will not be phased. The same logic applies with weed.
We are cultural creatures, not legal creatures.
That something is 'lawful or not' is only part of the context in which we evaluate what is appropriate or not in social culture.
The 'can do your business effectively' not the issue, because it's obvious. Most people can do a glass of wine at lunch and that's that, some can't, but it's part of the meal time ritual and deeply embedded in our social culture. There's thousands of years behind that one. Weed, not so much. Even Hookah, where people sit around smoking a common pipe, doesn't do much to you.
That something is 'lawful or not' is only part of the context in which we evaluate what is appropriate or not in social culture.
The 'can do your business effectively' not the issue, because it's obvious. Most people can do a glass of wine at lunch and that's that, some can't, but it's part of the meal time ritual and deeply embedded in our social culture. There's thousands of years behind that one. Weed, not so much. Even Hookah, where people sit around smoking a common pipe, doesn't do much to you.
> just like any other legal drug aka alcohol or sugar that employees consume.
Sugar is not considered a "legal drug" in western society, basically neither is caffeine...as for alcohol, kein Bier vor vier
Sugar is not considered a "legal drug" in western society, basically neither is caffeine...as for alcohol, kein Bier vor vier
Ah, fair. I stated an opinion as a matter of fact. My perspective came from the concept of a sugar crash. Which, to be fair, similar effects can happen when you eat too many simple sugars.
Your response made me wonder if sugar is considered a "legal drug" anywhere in the world. A Google search came back as negative or at least inconclusive.
The topic is the subject of scientific study [1] - "intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse".
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
Your response made me wonder if sugar is considered a "legal drug" anywhere in the world. A Google search came back as negative or at least inconclusive.
The topic is the subject of scientific study [1] - "intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse".
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/
> basically neither is caffeine
Then why does the FDA ban buying bulk caffeine [0]?
It seems like folks are also campaigning to ban kratom.
Basically even substances previously considered legal are under threat of being illegal. Remember even amphetamines used to be trivial to acquire.
0: https://www.newsweek.com/fda-bans-pure-bulk-caffeine-product...
Then why does the FDA ban buying bulk caffeine [0]?
It seems like folks are also campaigning to ban kratom.
Basically even substances previously considered legal are under threat of being illegal. Remember even amphetamines used to be trivial to acquire.
0: https://www.newsweek.com/fda-bans-pure-bulk-caffeine-product...
Caffeine is very dangerous even at low doses. It doesn't take much to literally kill you.
How much is a low dose? I hear that less than 400mg is safe to consume, though I consume approx 300mg a day myself. Currently trying to reduce that
I think it starts to get dangerous from 1 to 2 grams depending on body weight
It should be a Schedule I drug.
Just because it can easily kill you if you overdo it doesn't mean the effects are such that it should be illegal. Basically, the effects of caffeine are very mild, until you are dead, but the mild effects of caffeine are culturally celebrated in the west
This means coffee, tea and many sodas would be illegal. It would be illegal to grow any caffeine producing plant.
Seems in line with other Schedule I drugs like Psilocybin or Marijuana. Appropriate considering the addiction potential.
Yes but caffeine is socially accepted while psilocybin and marijuana is not. Further, caffeine makes you more productive as a worker whereas the latter two could even make you want to leave the work system entirely.
[deleted]
Companies in the pot industry are obviously going to be outliers. Its also already well known that cannabis and other drugs are highly prevalent in the food service industry.
As far as during work, the few places that could allow/tolerate use are the ones that don't care enough to have a policy anyway.
At work social events I can see attitudes shifting in some circles such that it might be acceptable to consume although there are some practicalities that make it difficult since there are rules about smoking/vaping indoors.
Additionally just as sharing beverages is uncommon at a work-social event, sharing a cannabis product like you would with close/casual friends is going to be a barrier. Everyone smoking their own joint/pipe is also less probable because the level of intoxication is quite high per joint/bowl/etc.
Other cannabis products such as edibles may be a possibility but there long duration and onset also makes them less practical plus you have to consider that eating an edible is such a non-event that it is hardly comparable to having a beer with coworkers over a long meal and/or discussion.
The extent I see cannabis being accepted at most work social functions is a BYO policy at outdoor/mixed settings.
However, I could see cannabis becoming more accepted at work (social)retreats which are typically outside, last at least a day or longer, and focus more on bonding and relaxing.
As far as during work, the few places that could allow/tolerate use are the ones that don't care enough to have a policy anyway.
At work social events I can see attitudes shifting in some circles such that it might be acceptable to consume although there are some practicalities that make it difficult since there are rules about smoking/vaping indoors.
Additionally just as sharing beverages is uncommon at a work-social event, sharing a cannabis product like you would with close/casual friends is going to be a barrier. Everyone smoking their own joint/pipe is also less probable because the level of intoxication is quite high per joint/bowl/etc.
Other cannabis products such as edibles may be a possibility but there long duration and onset also makes them less practical plus you have to consider that eating an edible is such a non-event that it is hardly comparable to having a beer with coworkers over a long meal and/or discussion.
The extent I see cannabis being accepted at most work social functions is a BYO policy at outdoor/mixed settings.
However, I could see cannabis becoming more accepted at work (social)retreats which are typically outside, last at least a day or longer, and focus more on bonding and relaxing.
I never would smoke pot at work. Not for any moral reason, I just feel that doing drugs* at work is as lame as doing them with your parents.
*I consider alcohol a drug.
*I consider alcohol a drug.
Medical use of any drug is not "lame" when it's helping someone. I think the phrase you're looking for is "getting inebriated at work for fun is lame".
It's "lame" if it makes you feel like garbage at work. Responsibility is annoying when you're stoned, and it doesn't get less annoying if the pot cures your epilepsy.
What about getting jittery from too much coffee or sleepy from antihistamines? You can apply the same logic, doesn't stop people from overcoming it
For some it's simply a coping mechanism, to survive the boredom of normal; for others it's medication to deal with chronic pain.
It's not that different from alcohol really, though definitely more healthy and less socially destructive.
But we have a messed up relationship with all drugs, it's all mixed up with religious bullshit and shame.
It's not that different from alcohol really, though definitely more healthy and less socially destructive.
But we have a messed up relationship with all drugs, it's all mixed up with religious bullshit and shame.
[deleted]
Many companies provide alcohol at company parties or Friday "wind downs". Who will be the first to provide marijuana as a standard option?
This is some of the dumbest clickbait yet, and even more annoying is that I clicked on it.
Is it ever okay to get high with a client? Duh of course it is. In the same way it is sometimes okay to drink with a client. Or share a meal with a client. Or go skydiving with a client. Context is everything. Why can't we just let people be people and not be so uptight about made-up rules?
Is it ever okay to get high with a client? Duh of course it is. In the same way it is sometimes okay to drink with a client. Or share a meal with a client. Or go skydiving with a client. Context is everything. Why can't we just let people be people and not be so uptight about made-up rules?
I made a coworker really uncomfortable by offering to smoke him out after work when he was visiting our site. But there really wasn't any recourse - he was conservative visiting from a conservative area (where it was "understood" that pot is a hard drug). I'm from the Bay Area: I'd been smoking weed since I was 16.
I've always been cognizant of differing understandings around the drug, but I definitely think it still takes some discretion.
By the way, the key difference between a drink at lunch and some pot is that im pretty useful around 2p with a drink - stoned, I might as well go home for the day. (Of course, everyone's different).
So, I think this discussion is worth having in a respectful manner - it's new rules.
I've always been cognizant of differing understandings around the drug, but I definitely think it still takes some discretion.
By the way, the key difference between a drink at lunch and some pot is that im pretty useful around 2p with a drink - stoned, I might as well go home for the day. (Of course, everyone's different).
So, I think this discussion is worth having in a respectful manner - it's new rules.
> By the way, the key difference between a drink at lunch and some pot is that im pretty useful around 2p with a drink - stoned, I might as well go home for the day. (Of course, everyone's different).
The actual key difference is the person, then, right? Because plenty of people I have encountered get tipsy or lose focus after one drink. And there are acquaintances that can smoke a bowl and still function well enough to perform their job.
Similarly, I can take a gummy and still work. A couple drinks and I'm useless.
The actual key difference is the person, then, right? Because plenty of people I have encountered get tipsy or lose focus after one drink. And there are acquaintances that can smoke a bowl and still function well enough to perform their job.
Similarly, I can take a gummy and still work. A couple drinks and I'm useless.
> The actual key difference is the person, then, right?
And perhaps, for this reason, drugs shouldn't be a part of the workplace at all. Go visit Japan if you want to see what social pressure to drink after work does to a person's health.
I don't even want to consider what marijuana would do to an intelligent person's focus and clarity of thought, if subjected to social pressure to smoke after work.
And perhaps, for this reason, drugs shouldn't be a part of the workplace at all. Go visit Japan if you want to see what social pressure to drink after work does to a person's health.
I don't even want to consider what marijuana would do to an intelligent person's focus and clarity of thought, if subjected to social pressure to smoke after work.
Social pressure to consume any substance is not cool. But if it's a mutual desire, and in the right context, alcohol (or coffee I guess) can be a nice catalyst for bonding with coworkers and clients. It should by no means be a requirement of course.
This is true. The fact that we allow an addictive stimulant with severe withdrawal effects into our offices is insane. Drugs like coffee have no place in a professional culture.
Caffeine doesn’t have severe withdrawal effects lol. Alcohol, while a depressant and not a stimulant, is much worse in both addiction potential and withdrawal and it would have made your point much more salient.
Agreed. My ability to socially interact and be productive is pretty heavily affected when smoking, much more so than when drinking (heck, the right amount of booze might even improve those qualities a bit). Like you said, everyone is different, but I personally wouldn't consider getting high in a professional setting.
Also, a lot of people might not have any experience with pot, so they don't know what (if any) effect it will have on them. Unlike alcohol. People usually don't want to experience novelties when there is business or a potential deal on the line.
Further, as much as cannabis advocates may try and argue against it, there's much more chance of having a scary or frightening experience getting high than there is from alcohol. In my experience, even a small amount of weed can trigger severe anxiety attacks in usually healthy people. It is more volatile for sure
I strongly agree, cannabis can have really unpleasant side effects, and it can be unpredictable and volatile. It does differ from coffee and even alcohol in this regard, though in a varying way.
Start with coffee. Coffee isn't dangerous from a fatal overdose perspective. It would take ~80+cups of coffee in a very short amount of time to reach life threatening caffeine levels. Something other than the caffeine would threaten your safety before the caffeine did. You can drink enough coffee to have a very unpleasant experience (I certainly have), but it's not a confusing substance, and most people know their limits (1-2 cups every few hours at most), and it's easy to stay within these limits. Different brews can definitely spike the coffee level, and I've had a few moments where I had just one (admittedly large) serving of a high caffeine grind and found myself more wired than I wanted to be.
Now, that said, if you eat three spoonfuls of caffeine powder rapidly, different story. That is quite rare in the caffeine world, though, and most people wouldn't consume the drug this way (it would in fact be rare, though caffeine pills might do it?).
Moving on to alcohol. It actually is quite dangerous from a fatal overdose perspective, mainly because many people enjoy (at least short term) getting quite drunk. It's generally easy to find alcohol in mild, easily understood doses, with some risks - "IPA" beers can surprise people who are accustomed to drinking pilsners. However, alcohol is regularly served and available in high concentrations that can be rapidly consumed before the effects set in. Coffee is easier to regulate, people don't generally enjoy getting too wired, and has an incredibly high fatal overdose threshold. Alcohol, on the other hand, is a substance that people usually consume like coffee (a couple pilsners, or glasses of wine), but there is a common use case where people deliberately drink a lot on purpose, and the delta between very drunk and fatal overdose on alcohol is much, much narrower than very wired and fatal dose on caffeine.
Now on to cannabis. Cannabis almost only exists in something similar to that highly volatile, powdered form of caffeine, and unlike whiskey vs pilsener, it is not apparent what you're consuming. Weed ranges from 1%THC to 35%+. If it is smoked, the effect at least comes on relatively quickly, but there's a long enough time lag that people can unintentionally take up to 100 times the dose they intended to. If you eat extracted THC, the risks amplify even more.
Another interesting thing about cannabis is that it appears that high doses, you get an unusual effect - the opposite of what people experience at low doses. For some people, if you drink a little caffeine, you get a little wired, if you drink too much, you get too wired. Same for getting drunk with alcohol - high doses have a similar effect, but to an undesirable magnitude. Weed, for some people has a different effect - take a little, get a little relaxed. But if you take too much, you don't get too relaxed, you experience the opposite, extreme anxiety and paranoia.
One saving grace of cannabis - unlike alcohol, the delta between being way, way too high and dying of an overdose is massive. In short, the danger of an unpleasant episode of cannabis is the unpleasant episode (well, there may be long term psychological effects).
My opinion is that cannabis should be legal, and that the practice of putting the potency on the label from a proper lab is a huge improvement over what we had before (some dude on Haight street reassuring you "nah, dude, this is the chillest, the chillest bud"). I also suspect that people who experienced heavy paranoia might not have been on the very low doses though thought they were (we're talking about 1.5-3% vs 30%+). Some people claim that CBD reduces the risk of anxiety, though others think that this is just a result of lower THC levels among high CBD stains.
Anyway, that was a very long passage of agreeing with you. It's hard to take a "small" dose of cannabis, it's hard to know to potency of what you're taking, you're "all in" before you find out, and the effect of large doses can be the opposite of small doses. There may be long term effects, certainly of excessive use at high doses, but the odds of a fatal overdoes, on the other hand, are vanishingly low.
Start with coffee. Coffee isn't dangerous from a fatal overdose perspective. It would take ~80+cups of coffee in a very short amount of time to reach life threatening caffeine levels. Something other than the caffeine would threaten your safety before the caffeine did. You can drink enough coffee to have a very unpleasant experience (I certainly have), but it's not a confusing substance, and most people know their limits (1-2 cups every few hours at most), and it's easy to stay within these limits. Different brews can definitely spike the coffee level, and I've had a few moments where I had just one (admittedly large) serving of a high caffeine grind and found myself more wired than I wanted to be.
Now, that said, if you eat three spoonfuls of caffeine powder rapidly, different story. That is quite rare in the caffeine world, though, and most people wouldn't consume the drug this way (it would in fact be rare, though caffeine pills might do it?).
Moving on to alcohol. It actually is quite dangerous from a fatal overdose perspective, mainly because many people enjoy (at least short term) getting quite drunk. It's generally easy to find alcohol in mild, easily understood doses, with some risks - "IPA" beers can surprise people who are accustomed to drinking pilsners. However, alcohol is regularly served and available in high concentrations that can be rapidly consumed before the effects set in. Coffee is easier to regulate, people don't generally enjoy getting too wired, and has an incredibly high fatal overdose threshold. Alcohol, on the other hand, is a substance that people usually consume like coffee (a couple pilsners, or glasses of wine), but there is a common use case where people deliberately drink a lot on purpose, and the delta between very drunk and fatal overdose on alcohol is much, much narrower than very wired and fatal dose on caffeine.
Now on to cannabis. Cannabis almost only exists in something similar to that highly volatile, powdered form of caffeine, and unlike whiskey vs pilsener, it is not apparent what you're consuming. Weed ranges from 1%THC to 35%+. If it is smoked, the effect at least comes on relatively quickly, but there's a long enough time lag that people can unintentionally take up to 100 times the dose they intended to. If you eat extracted THC, the risks amplify even more.
Another interesting thing about cannabis is that it appears that high doses, you get an unusual effect - the opposite of what people experience at low doses. For some people, if you drink a little caffeine, you get a little wired, if you drink too much, you get too wired. Same for getting drunk with alcohol - high doses have a similar effect, but to an undesirable magnitude. Weed, for some people has a different effect - take a little, get a little relaxed. But if you take too much, you don't get too relaxed, you experience the opposite, extreme anxiety and paranoia.
One saving grace of cannabis - unlike alcohol, the delta between being way, way too high and dying of an overdose is massive. In short, the danger of an unpleasant episode of cannabis is the unpleasant episode (well, there may be long term psychological effects).
My opinion is that cannabis should be legal, and that the practice of putting the potency on the label from a proper lab is a huge improvement over what we had before (some dude on Haight street reassuring you "nah, dude, this is the chillest, the chillest bud"). I also suspect that people who experienced heavy paranoia might not have been on the very low doses though thought they were (we're talking about 1.5-3% vs 30%+). Some people claim that CBD reduces the risk of anxiety, though others think that this is just a result of lower THC levels among high CBD stains.
Anyway, that was a very long passage of agreeing with you. It's hard to take a "small" dose of cannabis, it's hard to know to potency of what you're taking, you're "all in" before you find out, and the effect of large doses can be the opposite of small doses. There may be long term effects, certainly of excessive use at high doses, but the odds of a fatal overdoes, on the other hand, are vanishingly low.
[deleted]
I would argue that much of the anxiety in first time users stems from the perception of marijuana as a dangerous or illegal substance. Not to discount the negative effects of cannabis because they do exist (cannabis induced psychosis is very real in heavy users), but there are also plenty of medical use cases where cannabis is safer than the widely-accepted alternative. I actually use it for anxiety attacks myself; a good mellow indica works better and impairs me far less than a Xanax, for example.
I really really could not disagree more. My anxiety attacks were much more about getting stuck in vivid loops thinking about really bad situations happening, literally anything like someone calling or knocking at the door. I know it isn't legality because I had my worst anxiety attack of all in _Amsterdam_. Weed makes some people have horrific anxiety attacks, I think nothing more needs to be said. I don't think it's because of the danger or legality. I smoked weed for years in comfortable settings and always had anxiety attacks (I was addicted even though I was panicking every time...) I know a lot of people who have had anxiety attacks even though they are in safe or legal environments
Yeah, the paranoia can be very real. When I do smoke, I mostly like to do it alone where I know I won't have to interact with anyone and can completely control my environment.
I think weed affects people in wildly different ways. I know folks who can smoke all day and still be very social. As for myself, I generally need to remove myself from a social situation if I get too high, due to weird anxieties.
edit: I use the word paranoia here just because that's how I've interpreted my own experiences. I think "anxiety" is probably a more apt description.
I think weed affects people in wildly different ways. I know folks who can smoke all day and still be very social. As for myself, I generally need to remove myself from a social situation if I get too high, due to weird anxieties.
edit: I use the word paranoia here just because that's how I've interpreted my own experiences. I think "anxiety" is probably a more apt description.
I think generally it is anxiety, but I have also experienced paranoia. That is, usually the feeling is "I feel really bad and worried and I think something is going to go wrong", but there have definitely been a few times where I'm sitting looking out the window terrified that each person is going to knock on the door, or just properly scared of every little sound. I would call those paranoia.
Well, I had been a moderate stoner for a few years, and I had no concern about the law. Then, I went through a phase where I had horrible panic attacks every single time I smoked. It seemed purely a chemical thing to me. Now, in middle age, I only ever feel mildly stoned and body high, no matter how much I smoke or what strain.
Because "politics" has been redefined into the intense prescriptive study of politeness and protocols into which people can be plugged like a USB device.
Legality has changed around pot, so new politics have to be given to people to create a new consensus.
Legality has changed around pot, so new politics have to be given to people to create a new consensus.
Is it ok to be drunk at work? No, but a bit of alcohol would be acceptable in most cases. I guess if something is comparable, it would be ok?