Government asks German residents to drive lorries even if they never have before(independent.co.uk)
independent.co.uk
Government asks German residents to drive lorries even if they never have before
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hgv-lorry-driver-shortage-germans-b1930558.html
92 comments
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This is the most hilarious article I read past month!
You may also enjoy another contender, replete with punful commentary by the driver:
"Mortar tanker tailed by drivers looking for petrol"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-58767...
"People need to stop and think... driving a tanker, no matter what the product, is quite a pressurised job, so following them puts extra pressure on drivers already under pressure without having to worry about absolute morons."
"People need to stop and think... driving a tanker, no matter what the product, is quite a pressurised job, so following them puts extra pressure on drivers already under pressure without having to worry about absolute morons."
Actually, no. The OP's link is about government stupidity and yours is about people's despair. It's ok if someone can't tell the mortar tanker from petrol tanker. Not everbody work in the construction industry. The whole story is not fun for me, it's sad.
Haha, that one wins the prize!
or putting it differently, it'd be really fun, if all of these 20 drivers voted for Brexit
A bit clickbaity title. Reality: UK government sends letter to all drivers in the UK with a truck license to consider driving trucks. Germans with old licenses happen to automatically have a truck licence. End of story.
Edit: Netherlands also has something similar with older licenses, so it's likely that not only Germans but more foreigners in the UK got this letter.
Edit: Netherlands also has something similar with older licenses, so it's likely that not only Germans but more foreigners in the UK got this letter.
A bit clickbaity is a reasonable criticism, but not "end of story".
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that older licenses that had these sort of automatic endorsements unbacked by any experience should have been excluded from the letters – so there is a story here. 1999 was 22 years ago!
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that older licenses that had these sort of automatic endorsements unbacked by any experience should have been excluded from the letters – so there is a story here. 1999 was 22 years ago!
German driving licenses didn’t use to have expiration dates and I haven’t read that that changed. My ex still uses hers, issued in the mid 80s with a photo of her in her 20s
Newer driver licences issued after 2013 do have expiration dates. Older ones without printed expiration date will eventually expire, depending on the owner's birth year and the year they have been issued. The first ones will expire in 2022 (for drivers licences issued before 1999 and drivers born 1953-1958). If she was in her 20s in the 80s, it will probably expire in 2023 or 2024.
https://www.verbraucherzentrale.de/wissen/reise-mobilitaet/u...
If you click through to the BMVI, nothing really changes. Basically just the format. I.e. the old paper driver's licenses expire first ("Lappen") and you just get a new plastic card with a new photo. However you are still allowed to drive exactly what you were allowed to drive beforehand and the license expiry seems to be 15 years after that. Even some of the plastic card ones will expire and you get a new plastic card. Funny that I have to read this on HN though. Gotta go back and get a new card in a few years it seems lol
EDIT: Downvote? For giving extra information? In case this is post-Brexit racism, I don't live in the UK so keep it to yourselves.
EDIT: Downvote? For giving extra information? In case this is post-Brexit racism, I don't live in the UK so keep it to yourselves.
I have a Danish drivers license and it will expire when I turn 70. I got it at 24, you can guess how likely it is that anybody could recognize me on the picture by then.
These days the licenses are only valid for 10 years, so the picture might actually be useful.
These days the licenses are only valid for 10 years, so the picture might actually be useful.
> 1999 was 22 years ago!
It sure was. Back then, a mule pulled my car. We didn't have rubber tires, I'd take the wheels to the wheelwright's shop and have a new iron rim put on now and then. On the weekends I'd go varmint hunting with my trusty flintlock.
It sure was. Back then, a mule pulled my car. We didn't have rubber tires, I'd take the wheels to the wheelwright's shop and have a new iron rim put on now and then. On the weekends I'd go varmint hunting with my trusty flintlock.
Is it true that in the before times, you'd have to manually deallocate memory?
It's well known that most programs had automatic memory deallocation in the before times: your tool would call malloc, process its input, and let the OS free memory as soon as it exited.
But some of the fanciest programs, like the Bourne Shell, were even more automatic: they didn't have to manually manage each allocation either. You'd simply write right on the heap and have your SIGSEGV handler do a brk() every so often!
But some of the fanciest programs, like the Bourne Shell, were even more automatic: they didn't have to manually manage each allocation either. You'd simply write right on the heap and have your SIGSEGV handler do a brk() every so often!
In the before time, deallocating memory meant pulling it out of the board.
To free up memory on our systems, we bought new system and moved the old ones into a landfill.
Permanent storage was on stone tablets, but read/write times were REALLY LONG. Backups took a really long time, too. Restoring was pretty quick, because you would just put the last-known-good tablets into the machine.
To free up memory on our systems, we bought new system and moved the old ones into a landfill.
Permanent storage was on stone tablets, but read/write times were REALLY LONG. Backups took a really long time, too. Restoring was pretty quick, because you would just put the last-known-good tablets into the machine.
Hey - at least you could listen to Nevermind while sitting for six hours for the portrait painter to finish their work.
Half my family died of dysentery while driving the wagon to Oregon one summer in the 90's.
Dysentery? Luxury!
So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time…
Back in 1999, they had to do self-driving updates over the air, which was by carrier pigeon. Worked pretty well, but you had to wash your car more often.
Someone was told to write a query for all people who could legally operate heavy trucks. They did it. End of story. The person who ordered it and the person who wrote it probably didn't even know of the old technicality.
I'm a 50 year old Brit. I too have a 7.5 tonne lorry plus trailer endorsement on my license. Also, small PSV and various others. Everyone used to get them and that was probably EU wide. Not sure when it stopped.
Provided you take corners carefully and use all the mirrors, a "box van" or a smaller "Luton" is easy enough to drive. The controls are pretty obvious and familiar but hillstarts and reverse hill starts need a little practice. When loaded, allow extra stopping and maneuvering space!
Provided you take corners carefully and use all the mirrors, a "box van" or a smaller "Luton" is easy enough to drive. The controls are pretty obvious and familiar but hillstarts and reverse hill starts need a little practice. When loaded, allow extra stopping and maneuvering space!
Don't make K turns either.
Yeah, in US you can rent and drive 26 foot long truck (these are rated to 26000 pounds, so just below 12 tons) on a regular driver license in most places. And yes, these aren’t that hard to drive, if you are paying attention.
I like being able to just rent one if I need it, without going through complex licensing rigamarole like you do in Europe, and apparently lack of it has not caused the society to collapse ( we have not had terrorist truck attacks either). I find the American lenient system much more preferable.
I like being able to just rent one if I need it, without going through complex licensing rigamarole like you do in Europe, and apparently lack of it has not caused the society to collapse ( we have not had terrorist truck attacks either). I find the American lenient system much more preferable.
The spaciousness of North America compared to Europe makes a significant difference in many driving related (and numerous other) issues.
> ( we have not had terrorist truck attacks either)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
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Federal law says you can actually drive a much longer vehicle than a 26 foot box truck, as long as it's GVWR isn't over 26k lbs. A few states may have more restrictive policies, but as far as the US Gubbmint is concerned, the weight is the key.
It is not federal government that will pull you over, so I think it’s the state law that matters here.
Even a 40 tonne tractor+trailer isn't hard to drive. I did it with a friend on long stretches of motorways. Surprising amount of torque and braking power. Reversing and maneuvering it anywhere is the real challenge :D
> I too have a 7.5 tonne lorry plus trailer endorsement on my license. Also, small PSV and various others. Everyone used to get them and that was probably EU wide. Not sure when it stopped.
It was pretty much the same in Germany. It was changed when the system was switched over to the new European driving license which was implemented in July 1996. Anyone who got theirs after the change will usually only have class B for up to 3.5t plus a 0.75t trailer.
I'm a German who actually happens to have C1E. So who much do you currently pay for lorry drivers?
It was pretty much the same in Germany. It was changed when the system was switched over to the new European driving license which was implemented in July 1996. Anyone who got theirs after the change will usually only have class B for up to 3.5t plus a 0.75t trailer.
I'm a German who actually happens to have C1E. So who much do you currently pay for lorry drivers?
No idea but I will enquire ...
If you search for "salary HGV UK" you get £19-24K. That was probably last year and frankly wrong, now.
I'm an IT consultant and MD of the firm and now wondering if I should get my big rig thang on! OK, I can drive a 7.5 tonner on my driver's license and have done so, many times. I can also drag a trailer, according to my license.
If you search for "salary HGV UK" you get £19-24K. That was probably last year and frankly wrong, now.
I'm an IT consultant and MD of the firm and now wondering if I should get my big rig thang on! OK, I can drive a 7.5 tonner on my driver's license and have done so, many times. I can also drag a trailer, according to my license.
The fact they're so desperate for drivers they'll willing to ask folks who haven't driven in decades is THE story.
On a related note there's a meme going around of Boris asking the Queen if she would drive a truck since she did in WW2.
On a related note there's a meme going around of Boris asking the Queen if she would drive a truck since she did in WW2.
But it's not an intentional 'hey you have some ancient technical reason to be considered but no experience please do it anyway', which is what makes it a boring non-story.
It's a bug in the query, at most.
It's a bug in the query, at most.
Haha, please share the meme
Just in case you weren't being sarcastic
https://imgur.com/yfeA4Hs
https://imgur.com/yfeA4Hs
In the USA, a standard driver's license lets you operate vehicles up to 26,000lbs or up to 45 feet without a CDL.
That's essentially a lorry.
That's essentially a lorry.
But only for personal use (most places in the US you can register a tractor as an RV). For business you'll need that CDL. Hell, if you deliver fifth wheels for a living you'll need a CDL and you'll even be stopping at weigh stations. Though you probably wouldn't get caught if you chose to skip them.
Your 'Reality: [...] End of story' claim does not contradict the title. They may automatically have a truck license, but also have never driven a truck.
If I got a truck license more than 20 years ago (before 1999) but never drove a truck in my life, I would definitely feel uncomfortable driving a truck. Shit, I feel a bit uncomfortable driving my car after a two or three month break. For 20 years to elapse between licensing and putting that activity into practice seems justifiably eyebrow raising to me. The headline doesn't even mention the 20 elapsed years part of it.
If I got a truck license more than 20 years ago (before 1999) but never drove a truck in my life, I would definitely feel uncomfortable driving a truck. Shit, I feel a bit uncomfortable driving my car after a two or three month break. For 20 years to elapse between licensing and putting that activity into practice seems justifiably eyebrow raising to me. The headline doesn't even mention the 20 elapsed years part of it.
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Basically, every german with a drivers license before the 2000s is allowed to drive lorries with up to 7.5t, with 3.5t afterwards. Also, a lot of males doing mandatory military conscription had the ability to get a full truck license at the Bundeswehr for free.
This is coming home to roost at the moment, as the voluntary fire brigades depended on most people being allowed to drive the big 40t or at least lighter 7.5t units. Slowly, this is sinking in and more are able to acquire those licenses, but its still a massive bottleneck.
Remind Boris that the Queen drove trucks during the war and she doesn’t need any driving license.
This may be true, but I'm not sure returning to the automotive safety record of the 10s[1] and the 40s is necessarily the way to go.
Instead, it may be good to remind him that continental europeans drove trucks right before Brexit, and that if he absolutely insists that only Brits should be doing those jobs, that raising wages[2] tend to attract more employees.
Or, alternatively, he could always mobilize the army to drive trucks, rather than guarding petrol stations.
[1] Allright, allright, I suppose the immortal queen may not have been driving trucks in that war.
[2] By more than a pittance.
Instead, it may be good to remind him that continental europeans drove trucks right before Brexit, and that if he absolutely insists that only Brits should be doing those jobs, that raising wages[2] tend to attract more employees.
Or, alternatively, he could always mobilize the army to drive trucks, rather than guarding petrol stations.
[1] Allright, allright, I suppose the immortal queen may not have been driving trucks in that war.
[2] By more than a pittance.
I got my license in Germany in 1985 so I can drive a truck up to 7.5t with my license. If I remember correctly I could also add a trailer as long as the total weight is below 12t. That's real tonnes, not US tonnes so add another 10%. Seems totally insane to me and I never took advantage of it, largest was 3.5t rental truck. Here in the US larger pickup trucks are maybe 5 or 6 tons. A F350 dually gets close, though.
Especially delivering stuff, say, in the city of London must be hell if you never drove a lorry before. Generally, UK towns aren't quite as spacious as the US.
It's wonderfully salacious that they're asking german drivers. Germans are widely seen as the driving force behind the EU buerocracy that mandated Brexit in the first place. Oh, the irony!
It's wonderfully salacious that they're asking german drivers. Germans are widely seen as the driving force behind the EU buerocracy that mandated Brexit in the first place. Oh, the irony!
They are asking anyone licensed to drive HGVs to do so. This just happens to include German drivers licenses issued prior to 1999.
I'm still waiting for my letter !
Since it's not defined in the article, and I wasn't familiar with it, HGV = "Heavy Goods Vehicle". A cargo truck.
The quote by one of the German residents that got the letter is pretty great:
One 41-year-old German man, who received two copies of the letter at his London home on Friday morning, one addressed to him and another for his wife, told The Independent.
“We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.
“It is nice to know there are specialist jobs available here for us though after Brexit. We would never have been headhunted to drive a lorry if we’d gone back to Germany.”
One 41-year-old German man, who received two copies of the letter at his London home on Friday morning, one addressed to him and another for his wife, told The Independent.
“We were quite surprised,” he said. “I’m sure pay and conditions for HGV drivers have improved, but ultimately I have decided to carry on in my role at an investment bank. My wife has never driven anything larger than a Volvo, so she is also intending to decline the exciting opportunity.
“It is nice to know there are specialist jobs available here for us though after Brexit. We would never have been headhunted to drive a lorry if we’d gone back to Germany.”
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And yet he is staying in UK as he can't make such money back in Germany and complaints about UK and Brexit. Some people are just insufferable.
You're complaining about someone making a mild Brexit joke to a reporter. Some people really are insufferable.
> and complaints about UK and Brexit.
I don't see a 'complaint about Brexit' in his response.
In fact, being a German citizen I'm sure he didn't even get a vote on the subject.
I don't see a 'complaint about Brexit' in his response.
In fact, being a German citizen I'm sure he didn't even get a vote on the subject.
Finance people are so insufferable. Yeah mate we’re all glad you’re an investment banker so you don’t need to occupy yourself with such plebeian jobs. Great for you mate! I will make sure to vote for anyone who promise to tax the rich next election
If these jobs are sooo important, the market should pay for them. Or is Britain going to be a centrally-planned economy, that dictates people which jobs to have?
I mean if we're now going to have shortages of fuel because we're not living in a centrally planned economy that certainly be a funny twist on history
sort of like a inverse soviet union. "If filled supermarkets were so important, the committee would have made it happen".
Texans freezing to death, German's can't make any cars because there's no chips, Brits have no fuel, but we have a gazillion consultants and bankers. The market has spoken
sort of like a inverse soviet union. "If filled supermarkets were so important, the committee would have made it happen".
Texans freezing to death, German's can't make any cars because there's no chips, Brits have no fuel, but we have a gazillion consultants and bankers. The market has spoken
But this was a central planned choice. Brexit pulled the rug out from under the market and was a centralised choice not a market reaction.
Also I'm unaware of whether or not the UK government, one of largest and oldest bureaucracies in the world actually anticipate this and provided the advice necessary.
Also I'm unaware of whether or not the UK government, one of largest and oldest bureaucracies in the world actually anticipate this and provided the advice necessary.
The Brexit referendum was 5 years ago. The market has had plenty of time to react. If some companies now have skilled labor shortages then that's entirely due to management incompetence. They could have hired more employees years ago and trained them to be lorry drivers.
This is way off the mark.
It was never obvious what sort of deal would be done between Europe & the UK govt. from the point of the referendum until quite on late on there was discussion of varying degrees of access to the common market and freedom of movement.
Everything was up in the air politically and diplomatically until the last minute for 4 years and then there was a pandemic (no lorry driver training or testing for over a year)
It’s not contentious that the problem is largely of the UKs own making but management incompetence at a company level is probably not to blame in most cases.
It was never obvious what sort of deal would be done between Europe & the UK govt. from the point of the referendum until quite on late on there was discussion of varying degrees of access to the common market and freedom of movement.
Everything was up in the air politically and diplomatically until the last minute for 4 years and then there was a pandemic (no lorry driver training or testing for over a year)
It’s not contentious that the problem is largely of the UKs own making but management incompetence at a company level is probably not to blame in most cases.
The referendum was in 2016 but the thing that happened in 2020 was not the culmination of 4 years of sound planning and forewarning. It was Leeroy Jenkins applied to geopolitics.
That is to say, the market is reacting now.
To the market's credit, it hedged a few years hoping the UK wouldn't shit the bed, giving us some relative stability post-referendum. Until the UK started filling its pants and blaming everyone else for the stink.
That is to say, the market is reacting now.
To the market's credit, it hedged a few years hoping the UK wouldn't shit the bed, giving us some relative stability post-referendum. Until the UK started filling its pants and blaming everyone else for the stink.
Brexit was 'happening' for 5 years, I don't feel we need to make up excuses to maintain the slogan 'market can do no wrong'
Especially since creation EU is a 'centralised choice' to begin with
Especially since creation EU is a 'centralised choice' to begin with
Compensation has almost nothing to do with how critical or important (lorry driver) your job is to the functioning of society, or how noble it is, or even how skilled you are.
All that matters is the balance between supply and demand.
Lorry drivers are paid shit because, despite the pressure and bad conditions, they're relatively easy to train up (sure it takes time, so this isn't helping right now), there are plenty of people willing to put up with shit conditions for a few years at a time (always fresh supply), and most of them are hauling shit around for retail consumption which has low profit argins.
Software developers at investment banks (for example) are paid well because there's huge demand, supply of good developers with the right domain knowledge is short, and they work in a lucrative industry.
All that matters is the balance between supply and demand.
Lorry drivers are paid shit because, despite the pressure and bad conditions, they're relatively easy to train up (sure it takes time, so this isn't helping right now), there are plenty of people willing to put up with shit conditions for a few years at a time (always fresh supply), and most of them are hauling shit around for retail consumption which has low profit argins.
Software developers at investment banks (for example) are paid well because there's huge demand, supply of good developers with the right domain knowledge is short, and they work in a lucrative industry.
So you would graciously quit your own job to drive an HGV for queen and country?
You're on HN so I imagine you're earning as much as, if not more than, this investment banker.
You're on HN so I imagine you're earning as much as, if not more than, this investment banker.
Even if the pay is better, it's brutally reckless to give people 7.5 ton machinery to control without prior training. But hey I guess Brexit means "Who cares about needing several months of truck driving lessons?".
When they mow down a pedestrian crossing full of school children, the government can just say "Those dastardly Germans of the past!" except this time it'll be continued with "Why did they give unqualified people truck driving licenses?".
When they mow down a pedestrian crossing full of school children, the government can just say "Those dastardly Germans of the past!" except this time it'll be continued with "Why did they give unqualified people truck driving licenses?".
In the UK, which is where this is happening, this is just about class. An investment banker who won't quit their job and become an HGV driver is construed as a statement on class. Middle/upper class turning their nose on working class.
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This could be easily solved with immigration from Latin America. Plenty of unemployed truck drivers that would love to move
This problem was created because the UK government kick out the European drivers as part of their Brexit plan.
That make this current problem rather more difficult as the UK government can't just start importing foreign truck drivers to fix this issue, as that would then be a back flip on that original Brexit plan.
That make this current problem rather more difficult as the UK government can't just start importing foreign truck drivers to fix this issue, as that would then be a back flip on that original Brexit plan.
Too European. Why not India?
"However, the German government is understood to have not yet written to British people living there, asking them to consider driving an HGV when they have never done so before."
What an irrelevant statement. Unless Germany is also experiencing a driver shortage.
What an irrelevant statement. Unless Germany is also experiencing a driver shortage.
Given the UK government has claimed there are "very large and even larger shortages in other EU countries like Poland and Germany", evidence for or against that (e.g. if governments feel the need for such measures) are probably relevant to public discussion in the UK about this ;)
To be fair, they are right, mainland europe do have a driver shortage.
A friend of mine is the commercial of a company selling security detail services from Ukrainian ex-militia/military, and they started offering driver services, because the demand augmented that much in mainland europe (mainly east of germany, as they are the trips that pay the less).
A friend of mine is the commercial of a company selling security detail services from Ukrainian ex-militia/military, and they started offering driver services, because the demand augmented that much in mainland europe (mainly east of germany, as they are the trips that pay the less).
The difference is the UK government is being disingenuous, if not outright deceitful.
There may well be driver shortages in Europe, but it doesn't compare to the 'critical driver shortages' facing the UK.
And it is clear these shortages are 'critical', only because in the UK some supermarket shelves are empty and the supply of petrol is under heavy stress.
There may well be driver shortages in Europe, but it doesn't compare to the 'critical driver shortages' facing the UK.
And it is clear these shortages are 'critical', only because in the UK some supermarket shelves are empty and the supply of petrol is under heavy stress.
That is clearly in reference to the two previous paragraphs.
"Chief secretary to the Treasury, Simon Clarke, told the BBC’s Today programme yesterday. 'The difficulties we are facing are not unique to this country.'"
"Chief secretary to the Treasury, Simon Clarke, told the BBC’s Today programme yesterday. 'The difficulties we are facing are not unique to this country.'"
Germans couldn't care less. British xenophobia got them into this and, frankly, they deserve what's coming. All of Europe knew what Brexit meant except the British, apparently.
Please, worldwide HN-ers, remember that not all of us in the UK voted for this Brexit induced shitshow and would dearly love to see it all reversed :-(
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This is really comical.
I doubt that you could find many German truckers even if you were looking for them at a German truck stop.
I doubt that you could find many German truckers even if you were looking for them at a German truck stop.
I'm not too surprised. A year ago, the Ontario College of Teachers (a licensing body) was sending letters to retired teachers and teachers with lapsed licenses to encourage them to renew and apply for work in the province. It was clearly done out of desperation: in the bulk of cases they were asking people who were retired, exited the profession in far better times, or who moved to jurisdictions that were handling the pandemic far better (likely pre-pandemic, but still) to return to a system that was in turmoil. Yet it was the easiest way to reach out to qualified people.