The Roll-Out of Windows 11 Is the Perfect Time to Decide to Switch to Linux(cheapskatesguide.org)
cheapskatesguide.org
The Roll-Out of Windows 11 Is the Perfect Time to Decide to Switch to Linux
https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/windows-11-roll-out.html/
69 comments
I’m going to be contrarian here, screw WSL and VM Ubuntu and install Linux with a Windows Virtualbox. Much better and more practical.
how is it much better? without knowing what applications are used that seems like a bit of an overstatement.
All reasons people complain about requirements for using Windows (telemetry, ads everywhere, software lock-in, etc.).
This is an article about skipping Windows 11 and switching to Linux. Not some way to run Linux on Windows.
This is an article about skipping Windows 11 and switching to Linux. Not some way to run Linux on Windows.
yeah but you're replying to my comment tho so that's what I assumed it was "better" than. doesn't make sense to me otherwise (e.g. from just the article why introduce windows at all)
If you’re trying to remain in a Windows environment then there’s no advantage. If you’re trying leave to a particular OS then it’s best to start using it and migrate other files over time. Otherwise you leave the migration work and the actual use to some physical task. Installing Windows as a VM allows you to then remove it or treat it as a secondary OS instead of something you’re tied to.
right, but my point is that like you point out you can use windows and linux simultaneously, so which you have as the "main" or host really just depends on what applications you use.
either way you can use both windows and linux on the same machine so I was confused with your initial reply.
either way you can use both windows and linux on the same machine so I was confused with your initial reply.
Why not WSL2 instead? It's a very smooth experience nowadays.
I attempted to use Void Linux in WSL2 and hit problems the moment I tried to build a package. It seems that you're considered to be "in a chroot", which triggers security limitations on what you can do with kernel namespaces:
https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/2981
https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/issues/2981
You haven't needed VirtualBox for that in some years. Windows has a Linux subsystem now.
I also run Linux in VirtualBox, but never headless. Customizing Linux desktops is half the fun, honestly. Plus distro hopping is fun. I have about 20+ paused Linux VMs at any given time.
Why not use WSL?
I've been doing this since Windows 7 and WSL wasn't available then. Old habits die hard, I guess.
I also use Ubuntu with i3 when I'm trying to be particularly productive. Unfortunately Windows doesn't have something I find to be as good (I'm happy for suggestions if you think there's a tiling manager for Windows that's equivalent to i3).
I also use Ubuntu with i3 when I'm trying to be particularly productive. Unfortunately Windows doesn't have something I find to be as good (I'm happy for suggestions if you think there's a tiling manager for Windows that's equivalent to i3).
It's more bspwm than i3, but I am the (very active) developer and maintainer of komorebi, a tiling window manager for Windows 10 and 11: https://github.com/LGUG2Z/komorebi
Powertoys for Windows is an excellent tiling manager.
I know the main issue with Windows here on HN is usually around the telemetry that Microsoft collects but I don't have an issue with that.
Windows 10 for me has been a rock solid OS for years. I think I've had 2 bluescreen issues since i've been using it. One was plugging in a very faulty USB device and the other was caused by code I wrote.
WSL2 is a great addition and has replaced the places where I used to use a Linux VM or even a dual boot system.
I've only tried Windows 11 on a spare laptop so far and while I didn't like the changing of the start menu, it seems like a decent OS.
I have to use windows for my job as I still need to use some old embedded development tools that are only available on Windows. MacOS has some nice features but I've never got on with Macs that well and now I have a full Linux command line I can use.
Unless you devleop iPhone/iPad apps, I would say that windows is becoming one of the best operating systems for development these days.
Windows 10 for me has been a rock solid OS for years. I think I've had 2 bluescreen issues since i've been using it. One was plugging in a very faulty USB device and the other was caused by code I wrote.
WSL2 is a great addition and has replaced the places where I used to use a Linux VM or even a dual boot system.
I've only tried Windows 11 on a spare laptop so far and while I didn't like the changing of the start menu, it seems like a decent OS.
I have to use windows for my job as I still need to use some old embedded development tools that are only available on Windows. MacOS has some nice features but I've never got on with Macs that well and now I have a full Linux command line I can use.
Unless you devleop iPhone/iPad apps, I would say that windows is becoming one of the best operating systems for development these days.
I mean... if you're comparing it to Linux and MacOS, then I think Windows is just about dead last for most uses. WSL is great, but it's slow and has tons of edge cases where it just breaks (like IPv6 for example). That's not to say that Windows isn't getting better for development, but if the only thing you care about is development then you'd probably be better served by a lighter-weight operating system.
It's not last for gaming performance, driver compatibility, ease of use, or stability. Linux is last for all of those.
Gaming performance is consistently poorer on Windows than Linux[0] simply due to the overhead of running a more complex and demanding system. Driver compatibility is hit or miss admittedly (at least you can use CUDA), but I wouldn't consider it worse than Mac. Ease of use is entirely subjective and impossible to quantify, and stability is, unlike Windows and MacOS, up to the user. You're given the option to run newer, cutting-edge software at the expense of stability, but even rolling release isn't that bad these days now that most repos have testing branches.
[0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=11900k-w...
[0] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=11900k-w...
You linked to an article about benchmarks and then talk about gaming performance.
The (sad) reality is that all pc games have been heavily optimized to run on Windows, which does create a pretty big performance difference which favors windows.
I prefer Linux for productivity work myself, but saying that it generally runs games better is just lying and setting people up for disappointment.
The (sad) reality is that all pc games have been heavily optimized to run on Windows, which does create a pretty big performance difference which favors windows.
I prefer Linux for productivity work myself, but saying that it generally runs games better is just lying and setting people up for disappointment.
Generally, games run worse. That's separate from the performance your system has while running games though, which is decidedly higher (as demonstrated) running Linux. Even still, the translation layers being used for most games are ludicrously quick, oftentimes to the extent that it's really a tossup. Look at how Overwatch runs these days[0], where it's genuinely trading blows with the Windows version. While Windows still hits a 10% higher max framerate, but Linux drops 25% less frames on average. It's remarkably close, and this is the case for many Linux games these days. Earlier today I bought Ziggurat 2, and out of curiosity I compared the framerate in Wine with the native build. The results surprised me, as Wine had noticeably less input lag and only lost 3-5 fps compared to the Linux native version.
If you haven't tried Linux gaming in the past year or so, you should probably give it a second look. Even my horrendous Skylake laptop manages to run the scope of my indie library through Wine, along with whatever other lightweight Linux native titles I want to take on the go. For my money, I'd say the experiences are mostly comparable at this point. Ditching Windows only cost me a handful of DRM-ridden titles, so I see it as a wash.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voXc1nCD4IA
If you haven't tried Linux gaming in the past year or so, you should probably give it a second look. Even my horrendous Skylake laptop manages to run the scope of my indie library through Wine, along with whatever other lightweight Linux native titles I want to take on the go. For my money, I'd say the experiences are mostly comparable at this point. Ditching Windows only cost me a handful of DRM-ridden titles, so I see it as a wash.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voXc1nCD4IA
I haven't run into any WSL edge cases. What's the IPv6 issue? Does networking break if your router tries to assign an IPv6 address? Or does it gracefully fall back to IPv4 (making it a trivial issue for most people)?
It would only be the perfect time to switch to Linux (or one of the BSD's) if most, if not all, the applications you use are available immediately.
Expecting users to leave their desired/trusted applications behind (in most cases) is pretty much a non-starter.
Beyond the title, there is a lot of FUD in the article, and that coming from someone who uses both Windows 10 and FreeBSD (and prior to that Slackware).
Expecting users to leave their desired/trusted applications behind (in most cases) is pretty much a non-starter.
Beyond the title, there is a lot of FUD in the article, and that coming from someone who uses both Windows 10 and FreeBSD (and prior to that Slackware).
Terrible argument. People don’t use this when they’re switching from Windows to MacOS or vice versa but it’s a requirement for Linux?
Most if not all applications are probably available through WINE layer of some sort.
Most if not all applications are probably available through WINE layer of some sort.
Switching from Windows to Mac, you may have existing commercial software packages to deal with. There's a good chance that the commercial package is available on Mac, or there's a set of choices that are functionally equivalent, and commercially supported (large companies or indie developers). That's a less likely proposition when moving from Windows to Linux (which itself is a less true statement today than 10 years ago, but isn't the same as moving to a Mac).
There is a huge difference between Probably and available.
Next > next > finish vs gazillion configurations for 90% of PC users.
Unless your software is extremely specialized, 90% of users will and should probably find an alternative first before going the WINE route.
I can speak as somebody that's been working off of a 2010 MacOSX up until now, and briefly tried Win10 for two months this summer - I brought a linux-installed machine from System76 and should be switching permanently over to linux if all goes well(1).
Apple continuing to censor erotic artists was the last straw for me, and I've heard encouraging things about how solid Ubuntu's UI is in particular. Windows? Their UI plus accessibility is hot garbage and I'd rather go back to a M1 MacPro than ever touch it again.
All of this to say -- I can't be the only one that's finally had it with both companies, and I'm not particularly "techie". As much as one can be when posting on HN, at any rate. ;)
(1)I say if all goes well because I and a more geeky friend had a disastrous time attempting to install kubuntu on an Asus that plain refused it. I see the ol' linux curse is still effective.
Apple continuing to censor erotic artists was the last straw for me, and I've heard encouraging things about how solid Ubuntu's UI is in particular. Windows? Their UI plus accessibility is hot garbage and I'd rather go back to a M1 MacPro than ever touch it again.
All of this to say -- I can't be the only one that's finally had it with both companies, and I'm not particularly "techie". As much as one can be when posting on HN, at any rate. ;)
(1)I say if all goes well because I and a more geeky friend had a disastrous time attempting to install kubuntu on an Asus that plain refused it. I see the ol' linux curse is still effective.
[deleted]
I heard the same arguments back in 2006 with Vista, in 2009 with 7 and later with 8 and 8.1.
And I’m still hearing every year that next year is the year of the Linux Desktop
And I’m still hearing every year that next year is the year of the Linux Desktop
I've been using Linux on the desktop exclusively since 2004 or earlier, it's better now than ever. My sister (complete technophobe) gave it a shot last year and is very happy.
It will be the year of the Linux desktop when we convince Dell, HP, and Lenovo to ship and support all their computers with Linux cheaper than their Windows counterparts.
Almost nobody changes the OS that came with the machine.
Almost nobody changes the OS that came with the machine.
> because the requirements have been in such flux over the past few months that no one seems to really know for sure which computers will eventually be able to run Windows 11
It's laid out in a table on Microsoft's website, in addition to a compatibility tool available for standalone download or via Windows Update.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica...
It's laid out in a table on Microsoft's website, in addition to a compatibility tool available for standalone download or via Windows Update.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica...
> > the requirements have been in such flux
I think the implication is that what's in that table has been changing, though I've not been following closely so I couldn't say for sure.
I think the implication is that what's in that table has been changing, though I've not been following closely so I couldn't say for sure.
A lot of these are frankly ridiculous. Windows doesn't come with a compiler? Huh? Ubuntu doesn't come with build-essential installed by default either.
I am sure Linux is fine, if they want it, for everyone here. But my wife is not at all confident technically. I recommended a Chromebook for her to move off an underpowered Win 10 machine. She is very happy and self sufficient on it. I suspect most people out there are more like her than us.
I’ll take the liberty to copy a comment from an earlier thread:
I don’t really care what OS other people choose. There will probably never be an OS that everyone will love.
So my stance is this: Just let people use whatever OS they’re happy and productive with. And where they can find applications they like. IMHO, having a nice selection of applications is just as important as the OS itself. For me, that is a compelling argument in favour of macOS. But if people can find applications they enjoy on Windows and Linux, then bully for them.
And when it comes to regular users who just want something that works – then it might be wise to not even use a traditional desktop OS. iOS/iPadOS and Android/Chrome OS are much more user-friendly than Windows/Mac/Linux will ever be.
I don’t really care what OS other people choose. There will probably never be an OS that everyone will love.
So my stance is this: Just let people use whatever OS they’re happy and productive with. And where they can find applications they like. IMHO, having a nice selection of applications is just as important as the OS itself. For me, that is a compelling argument in favour of macOS. But if people can find applications they enjoy on Windows and Linux, then bully for them.
And when it comes to regular users who just want something that works – then it might be wise to not even use a traditional desktop OS. iOS/iPadOS and Android/Chrome OS are much more user-friendly than Windows/Mac/Linux will ever be.
I care about what OS people choose. I care about other people enough that I don't want them to endure the ads Windows has these days. Or all the other "features" that the major players try to push on people who don't want them.
I don't want to give more power to companies who grow large enough to be able to ignore their users needs and wants.
That said, I won't take away people's choice. I'm just concerned about their well-being and about this world's future.
I'm not saying Linux is the answer. Maybe we're all doomed to be controlled by corporate interests, but I'm not going to be apathetic about it.
I don't want to give more power to companies who grow large enough to be able to ignore their users needs and wants.
That said, I won't take away people's choice. I'm just concerned about their well-being and about this world's future.
I'm not saying Linux is the answer. Maybe we're all doomed to be controlled by corporate interests, but I'm not going to be apathetic about it.
The reason to switch to Linux is that it keeps getting better, not that the alternatives keep getting worse.
These days people mostly just need a web browser.
These days people mostly just need a web browser.
I wouldn't consider Windows 11 until there is a LTSC version out, and I haven't seen one on MSDN yet.
It looks raw enough that it needs another year or so for Microsoft to finish it. Operating systems are down to the standards of AAA video games these days.
It looks raw enough that it needs another year or so for Microsoft to finish it. Operating systems are down to the standards of AAA video games these days.
I think this comes down to personal needs. The first step might be to check what applications was running recent week and what applications have been opened during last year. Then rank the applications based on importance and look if they have alternatives. Sometimes there is also other ways to look at the tasks/problems. Certainly for gaming there could be better ways such as gaming consoles, for productivity/multimedia a mobile device may do the job better (due to app availability). Everything aren't bound to be solved on a single computer as was mostly the fact 20 years ago.
Although, I am certainly opinionated and biased as I've opted for open (mostly GPL#/BSD licensed) solutions where they apply for at least 20 years and always in some nix-based operating system on my desktop. I feel miserable whenever I am forced to be on a Windows desktop, but that tend to be the case on an Apple mobile device or Android device too.. (but I happily use Apple and Android devices for certain tasks).
Although, I am certainly opinionated and biased as I've opted for open (mostly GPL#/BSD licensed) solutions where they apply for at least 20 years and always in some nix-based operating system on my desktop. I feel miserable whenever I am forced to be on a Windows desktop, but that tend to be the case on an Apple mobile device or Android device too.. (but I happily use Apple and Android devices for certain tasks).
The perfect time for me was when I realized that WSL doesn't have IPv6 support. I appreciate the work Microsoft put in with WSL, but it frankly feels incomplete without full native Linux environment to go along with it. Managing all of your software with package management feels so futuristic, too!
The Linux VM on Chrome OS supports IPv6, using ND proxy to solve the "one WiFi MAC address" problem without NAT. I guess Microsoft thought that was too hard.
https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/discussions/5855
https://github.com/microsoft/WSL/discussions/5855
If all the software you want to use is available as a package, it's great. Otherwise it ends up feeling even messier than Windows.
The stuff that's not packaged usually has to be built from source. That can be annoying because you need to figure out what -dev packages to install. And if any of its dependencies also aren't in the package manager, then you're going to have to build that first.
On top of that, many makefiles don't have an inverse operation to the install target, so if you decide you want to remove it it's a manual effort to figure out what to get rid of. Also have to be careful when doing the install because it will happily overwrite already installed files that happen to have the same name.
The stuff that's not packaged usually has to be built from source. That can be annoying because you need to figure out what -dev packages to install. And if any of its dependencies also aren't in the package manager, then you're going to have to build that first.
On top of that, many makefiles don't have an inverse operation to the install target, so if you decide you want to remove it it's a manual effort to figure out what to get rid of. Also have to be careful when doing the install because it will happily overwrite already installed files that happen to have the same name.
How does lack of IPv6 affect your use cases?
I've been on Manjaro with Gnome for the past year on my Dell xps 9310. The experience is near perfect. Wayland and Gnome 40's multi-touch realtime gestures closed the gap for me. I wouldn't use a Mac or Windows laptop if they were given to me for free, because I consider the experience inferior at this point.
But which Distro?
Ubuntu is such a productivity killer since it has not taskbar.
Anybody here using Ubuntu and changed the desktop environment to one with a taskbar? If so, which one and how did things go?
Ubuntu is such a productivity killer since it has not taskbar.
Anybody here using Ubuntu and changed the desktop environment to one with a taskbar? If so, which one and how did things go?
> Ubuntu is such a productivity killer since it has not taskbar.
By that logic it's impossible to be productive in macOS?
That aside, Kubuntu is supposed to be pretty stable is my understanding.
By that logic it's impossible to be productive in macOS?
That aside, Kubuntu is supposed to be pretty stable is my understanding.
The MacOS dock is actually fairly close to the Windows taskbar: A simple row of icons that shows what apps you have open, and you can click them repeatedly to switch windows.
Not sure what OP means, but I did feel that the Ubuntu "sidebar" is inferior. Slow, laggy, weird popups, forces you to scroll to see all of your open apps. It's just badly designed. KDE is much better...
Not sure what OP means, but I did feel that the Ubuntu "sidebar" is inferior. Slow, laggy, weird popups, forces you to scroll to see all of your open apps. It's just badly designed. KDE is much better...
That's pretty close to my experience with the Ubuntu side bar, though it definitely has its issues.
I don't use vanilla Ubuntu very often though, so I don't know much about it.
I don't use vanilla Ubuntu very often though, so I don't know much about it.
I swapped to Ubuntu when Win 7 support ended. That was 18.04. Now on 20.01. I have always had a taskbar. What version are you thinking of?
[deleted]
[deleted]
Been there done that. I did it when XP was released.
I was kinda thinking wsl GUI for browsing and keep windows for the gaming and streaming high res Netflix.
There still are five years of support for Windows 10. I’ll consider switching if by then the Windows 11 situation hasn’t improved. But if I switch, it will likely be to a Mac.
I try not to think too much about this because what Microsoft is doing is really pissing me off.
I try not to think too much about this because what Microsoft is doing is really pissing me off.
Or macOS with the new MacBook Pros rolling out these days
I typed the same thing exactly as you did. I guess Mac kind of counts as Linux as it's just a BSD flavor.
MacOS isn't Linux. It's a microkernel that implements BSD syscalls, with optimizations that make it behave more like a monolithic kernel (like Linux or Windows).
That said, since it implements the BSD syscalls, you can compile virtually any Linux or BSD programs for it easily.
Only downsides are areas where Apple intentionally doesn't match BSD. For instance, the supported OpenGL version is very outdated (although, in practice, there are libraries to translate OpenGL calls to Metal, so it's not that bad).
That said, since it implements the BSD syscalls, you can compile virtually any Linux or BSD programs for it easily.
Only downsides are areas where Apple intentionally doesn't match BSD. For instance, the supported OpenGL version is very outdated (although, in practice, there are libraries to translate OpenGL calls to Metal, so it's not that bad).
Kinda like saying ReactOS count's as Windows as it's just another NT flavor, but even less accurate.
Gross don't mention React please. It's horrible and it triggers me. Going to my safe space now.
ReactOS[0], not React[1].
[0] https://reactos.org/ [1] https://reactjs.org/
[0] https://reactos.org/ [1] https://reactjs.org/
Word. They could be a similar comparison.
ReactOS is cool though. Thanks for showing me that. Does it use wine under the covers or is its own thing?
ReactOS is cool though. Thanks for showing me that. Does it use wine under the covers or is its own thing?
It has a lot in common with wine, and there's lots of cooperation between the two projects, but ReactOS is it's own thing!
It includes a clean room implementation of the NT kernel, which is quite cool.
It includes a clean room implementation of the NT kernel, which is quite cool.
I'm not really sure what the overhead is since I usually have 16GB or 32GB of ram anyway.
That aside I feel the article is applying a double standard. Someone who properly can use Linux can easily resolve most of the authors criticisms. It's also possible to run Windows (haven't tried on 11, but is possible with 10) on a USB stick or external hard drive. You can also install Windows (10) trivially on most machines. Certain Linux variants also have telemetry, etc.
I enjoy Linux, I also enjoy Windows. There's no need to create a false dichotomy. It's very easy to just run both. Best tool for the job and what not.