Marriott refused to host Uyghur conference, citing “political neutrality”(axios.com)
axios.com
Marriott refused to host Uyghur conference, citing “political neutrality”
https://www.axios.com/marriott-uyghur-conference-d6deb429-9b5e-4759-ba10-98d59e81be12.html
128 comments
The management of this Marriot Hotel did yes, but it's encouraging that Marriot's corporate management immediately overruled the Hotel on this and apologised to the group.
Marriot do have a spotty history on such issues, but I think we should commend them when they attempt to do the right thing. Yes this shouldn't have happened in the first place, but given that it did they do seem to be doing their best to make it right.
I'm not going to post this reply to every single other comment ragging on 'Marriot' here, which is all but one top level comment, but come on people. Read the article. Oh, and now that top level comment that was actually informed and provided useful context is getting downvoted into oblivion. We can do better than this.
Marriot do have a spotty history on such issues, but I think we should commend them when they attempt to do the right thing. Yes this shouldn't have happened in the first place, but given that it did they do seem to be doing their best to make it right.
I'm not going to post this reply to every single other comment ragging on 'Marriot' here, which is all but one top level comment, but come on people. Read the article. Oh, and now that top level comment that was actually informed and provided useful context is getting downvoted into oblivion. We can do better than this.
Side note for those who don't know: most Marriott properties are Marriott-managed, not Marriott-owned.
It usually doesn't matter, but on policy questions there can sometimes be some friction between owner preferences & Marriott corporate preferences.
Usually this is over things like "Your food and service isn't up to Marriott quality, because you're under investing." But I imagine politics is also a sensitive point too. Regardless, Marriott corporate usually wins, as a hotel-without-the-Marriott-name prints less money.
Edit: Although in this instance, from the scarce details, it sounds like it was divergence from corporate policy by local management. Which, if you're putting management teams in ~7,900 properties, is probably a thing that happens.
Basic summary: https://marketrealist.com/2014/10/why-marriotts-hotels-have-...
Marriott Intl page for franchisees: https://hotel-development.marriott.com/
It usually doesn't matter, but on policy questions there can sometimes be some friction between owner preferences & Marriott corporate preferences.
Usually this is over things like "Your food and service isn't up to Marriott quality, because you're under investing." But I imagine politics is also a sensitive point too. Regardless, Marriott corporate usually wins, as a hotel-without-the-Marriott-name prints less money.
Edit: Although in this instance, from the scarce details, it sounds like it was divergence from corporate policy by local management. Which, if you're putting management teams in ~7,900 properties, is probably a thing that happens.
Basic summary: https://marketrealist.com/2014/10/why-marriotts-hotels-have-...
Marriott Intl page for franchisees: https://hotel-development.marriott.com/
Right direction but still not accurate correct: most Marriott "properties" are just Marriott-licensed not even managed. Marriott sets the standards for operation and provides access to its booking system, corporate accounts, rewards system, and some marketing. The actual business operation is a lot smaller than most people outside of hospitality realize.
According to a recent SEC filing, they own 20 properties internationally, lease another ~40. They manage 2,149, and franchise 5,493.
https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/0001048286/0...
According to a recent SEC filing, they own 20 properties internationally, lease another ~40. They manage 2,149, and franchise 5,493.
https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/0001048286/0...
This is actually true for a lot of hotel brands. It's more of a franchise situation.
It doesn’t matter. By licensing its name Marriott is taking responsibility for everything these hotels do, along with the risks associated with that. This kind of event was foreseeable, and the corporation completely failed to avoid the situation by providing training on these sensitive issues ahead of time. I don’t see any reason to cut them slack given how suppressed the Uyghur genocide has been by corporations in general out of fear of China, and allowing Marriott to deflect responsibility by blaming everything on local management is exactly what they would want.
Also note that their apology doesn’t explicitly condemn the hotel’s behavior, it just says that they’re providing training. Definitely riding the fence.
Also note that their apology doesn’t explicitly condemn the hotel’s behavior, it just says that they’re providing training. Definitely riding the fence.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic but at first I only see a big corporation (with an history) putting the blame on the local management.
Maybe it's due to my bad English, but I'm not able to find any sign of actual "overrule" of this decision. Is the WUC was finally accepted at this Hotel?
Maybe it's due to my bad English, but I'm not able to find any sign of actual "overrule" of this decision. Is the WUC was finally accepted at this Hotel?
Thanks.
It's easy to give into a pessimistic spiral; I always wanted these kinds of issues to become well-known, but it seems like the response is often some kind of "yeah, figures.", foregoing the conclusion.
In a similar, but lesser vein; John Cena's apology video didn't once mention what he was apologizing for, and still got lots of flak from mainland Chinese because of that. It was plain to everyone involved what the video was aimed to do, but it's the kind of fence-walking that we miss.
It's easy to give into a pessimistic spiral; I always wanted these kinds of issues to become well-known, but it seems like the response is often some kind of "yeah, figures.", foregoing the conclusion.
In a similar, but lesser vein; John Cena's apology video didn't once mention what he was apologizing for, and still got lots of flak from mainland Chinese because of that. It was plain to everyone involved what the video was aimed to do, but it's the kind of fence-walking that we miss.
> it's encouraging that Marriot's corporate management immediately overruled the Hotel on this and apologised to the group.
Where are you seeing this?
Where are you seeing this?
Maybe not overruled, but called out:
> The Marriott spokesperson clarified in a statement to Axios that hosting the conference would not have violated any "political neutrality" policy, and said the reference to "corporate management" in the email referred to "hotel-level management."
> "We are working with the hotel team to provide additional training and education on our longstanding practices of inclusion," she said.
> The Marriott spokesperson clarified in a statement to Axios that hosting the conference would not have violated any "political neutrality" policy, and said the reference to "corporate management" in the email referred to "hotel-level management."
> "We are working with the hotel team to provide additional training and education on our longstanding practices of inclusion," she said.
> From a business perspective
And that is our fault, to a great extent.
By "we", here I mean citizens of western countries that put up with this bullshit. When one of "our" companies engages in this shameful authoritarian appeasement we should boycott them to oblivion. If we fail to do so, we are enabling this behavior.
There's not much that we can do about human rights abuses in other countries. But there's a lot that we can do in our own countries to local companies that participate or validate the abusers. In that particular case, it would be feasible for Austrian people to stop all Marriott operations on the whole country, with a targeted human-rights campaign.
And that is our fault, to a great extent.
By "we", here I mean citizens of western countries that put up with this bullshit. When one of "our" companies engages in this shameful authoritarian appeasement we should boycott them to oblivion. If we fail to do so, we are enabling this behavior.
There's not much that we can do about human rights abuses in other countries. But there's a lot that we can do in our own countries to local companies that participate or validate the abusers. In that particular case, it would be feasible for Austrian people to stop all Marriott operations on the whole country, with a targeted human-rights campaign.
>> When one of "our" companies engages in this shameful authoritarian appeasement we should boycott them to oblivion.
What's the difference between what you're promoting and the knee-jerk cancel culture that's as bad as what it punishes? I like to think we can influence and change behaviours without "boycotting companies into oblivion", even if that was realistic or likely. There's a large distance between your aggressive post on the internet and an entire country of people coordinating a campaign against specific business.
What's the difference between what you're promoting and the knee-jerk cancel culture that's as bad as what it punishes? I like to think we can influence and change behaviours without "boycotting companies into oblivion", even if that was realistic or likely. There's a large distance between your aggressive post on the internet and an entire country of people coordinating a campaign against specific business.
Just because some cancel culture is knee-jerk does not mean all attempts to cancel someone or something is necessarily wrong.
You're putting responsibility on individuals to enforce ethical behavior. This has two problems:
1. People don't have enough motivation, knowledge, and free time to find and keep track of which companies behave ethically. Also, people are generally selfish and will buy from unethical companies if it saves them money or time. (I did this yesterday.)
2. Liars deceive large groups of people and escape punishment or cause wrong punishment of a competitor.
In a modern society, we need people with specialized skills to do the work of holding companies accountable. We should train them, pay them, and hold them accountable for how they do their jobs. USA has a law forbidding US people from paying bribes to anyone anywhere in the world. The FBI enforces this law.
How about adding a law forbidding US people from discriminating in business based on political or religious affiliation? I think we don't have this because a lot of US people wish to run their businesses with bigotry. See the gay wedding cake controversy [0].
[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44361162
1. People don't have enough motivation, knowledge, and free time to find and keep track of which companies behave ethically. Also, people are generally selfish and will buy from unethical companies if it saves them money or time. (I did this yesterday.)
2. Liars deceive large groups of people and escape punishment or cause wrong punishment of a competitor.
In a modern society, we need people with specialized skills to do the work of holding companies accountable. We should train them, pay them, and hold them accountable for how they do their jobs. USA has a law forbidding US people from paying bribes to anyone anywhere in the world. The FBI enforces this law.
How about adding a law forbidding US people from discriminating in business based on political or religious affiliation? I think we don't have this because a lot of US people wish to run their businesses with bigotry. See the gay wedding cake controversy [0].
[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44361162
> How about adding a law forbidding US people from discriminating in business based on political or religious affiliation?
Such laws would be terrific. Example: Gofundme will not be permitted to ban Kyle Rittenhouse's fundraising.
The number of folks on the right being discriminated against outnumber the folks on the left by several orders of magnitude.
Such laws would be terrific. Example: Gofundme will not be permitted to ban Kyle Rittenhouse's fundraising.
The number of folks on the right being discriminated against outnumber the folks on the left by several orders of magnitude.
Westerners have this outdated view that they have enough economic leverage to pressure China into doing what they want. Hollywood, the NBA, and Marriott actually have negative leverage over China because they are American exports that the CCP doesn't particularly care about. They would much rather their population consume Chinese media and stay in Chinese hotels anyways, so they're more than happy to find an excuse to kick them out. Pressuring these companies to take a stand about China and get kicked out will not only do absolutely nothing in helping the Uyghurs, it will hurt our domestic economy and help theirs.
Nike and Apple do have some leverage that the government can work with. However, American imports tend to be intermediary goods, so doing so would mutually damage both sides. We barely have enough on the table to negotiate trade, so no politician is going to enter a war of attrition for humanitarian reasons, especially if it's one that they have been preparing for, and we have not.
Nike and Apple do have some leverage that the government can work with. However, American imports tend to be intermediary goods, so doing so would mutually damage both sides. We barely have enough on the table to negotiate trade, so no politician is going to enter a war of attrition for humanitarian reasons, especially if it's one that they have been preparing for, and we have not.
I believe sustaining such a boycott is nearly impossible if you don't have the news-media on your side. This is because you need to convince the average, not particularly engaged citizen to join in the boycott. And, after the initial outrage you need media attention keep the boycott relevant in people's minds.
I don't sense our news-media wants to fight this fight.
I don't sense our news-media wants to fight this fight.
Actively refusing is the least passive/neutral thing they could have done.
Now they’ve obligated themselves (morally) to refuse Chinese political meeting bookings as well, but we won’t see that happen
Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics
Now they’ve obligated themselves (morally) to refuse Chinese political meeting bookings as well, but we won’t see that happen
Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics
Given the issues with the Olympics in general no one should attend.
I believe there are new calls to boycott because of Peng Shuai's disappearance. It seems so strange to me that this is such a mystery. Can't reporters go to her home and ring the bell?
I remember seeing some YouTube video that politically sensitive people are under "house arrest" in a high-rise apartment, and there are plain clothes police who guard the entrance (the apartment buildings have another gate at the beginning of the neighborhood, like a US gated community) and probably check the ID of unknown faces, ask them who they're there to see, and can refuse entry. If you said "I'm just here to see Joe Sixpack" they'll probably ask Joe if he knew you...
Also, getting even a tourist/any kind of visa if your occupation is "journalist" is hard enough, I think they'd probably google you and see what you've written about China...
Also, getting even a tourist/any kind of visa if your occupation is "journalist" is hard enough, I think they'd probably google you and see what you've written about China...
Think about what country they'd be doing this in.
If the government isn't lying, then there's no reason for any reporter to be worried, right? Is the fact that no reporter is doing this essentially proof that the government is lying?
Set aside the reporter question - surely she has some colleagues, friends, and family for whom it would not be unexpected for them to stop by?
Set aside the reporter question - surely she has some colleagues, friends, and family for whom it would not be unexpected for them to stop by?
Athletes from the USA. I like it.
> Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics
In a vacuum, I fully agree with protesting China to the fullest extent; however, if scientists are to be believed, these things (human rights, trade, etc violations) trifle in comparison to the climate change threat, and China has all of humanity by the throat here. We need a cooperative relationship with China for the coming decades, since we can't just move our manufacturing (and thus its pollution) out of China overnight and the climate can't wait for a more gradual approach.
EDIT: Looks like I struck a nerve. Folks, believe me, I don't like the idea of letting China off the hook in the short term for its violations, but if anyone has ideas for holding China accountable while also getting it to meet emissions targets, I'm all ears.
In a vacuum, I fully agree with protesting China to the fullest extent; however, if scientists are to be believed, these things (human rights, trade, etc violations) trifle in comparison to the climate change threat, and China has all of humanity by the throat here. We need a cooperative relationship with China for the coming decades, since we can't just move our manufacturing (and thus its pollution) out of China overnight and the climate can't wait for a more gradual approach.
EDIT: Looks like I struck a nerve. Folks, believe me, I don't like the idea of letting China off the hook in the short term for its violations, but if anyone has ideas for holding China accountable while also getting it to meet emissions targets, I'm all ears.
What’s that quote? It’s something along the lines of “the way to get good people to accept or do evil things is to convince them that the end justifies the means”
I think that's a good general principle, but I think the magnitude of the climate change threat and its timelines are exceptional. This principle doesn't generalize to it in my mind, but I'd be happy to hear how we can apply this principle and save the planet.
Am I to understand that you think we need to turn a blind eye to the bad things that China is doing to their own people so that we have a chance of convincing them to stop doing bad things to the rest of the world?
Not quite. The idea is that climate change poses an existential threat to human civilization as we know it. As bad as China's human rights abuses are, they pale in comparison to its climate abuses. If you have ideas for compelling China to reduce its emissions to meet targets while also holding them accountable for their various other violations, I'm all ears.
>> they pale in comparison to its climate abuses
Ah yes, the old "murdering a few people now is less of a problem than potentially murdering more people down the road" argument.
Ah yes, the old "murdering a few people now is less of a problem than potentially murdering more people down the road" argument.
Yeah, I guess in my mind it’s worth finding face-saving means to alleviate Uyghur suffering in order to save humanity as we know it.
But again I ask: what is your solution?
But again I ask: what is your solution?
It's not our responsibility you refute your claims. It's yours to prove them. How is turning a blind eye to China's human rights abuses going to force their hand when it comes to climate change? What exactly is your plan here? Clearly explain how we get from point A to point B.
And when has this strategy ever worked? We did the same thing with Poland in WWII and look where that got us. You can't make deals with despots.
And when has this strategy ever worked? We did the same thing with Poland in WWII and look where that got us. You can't make deals with despots.
> How is turning a blind eye to China's human rights abuses going to force their hand when it comes to climate change?
That’s not my claim.
That’s not my claim.
Plug the leaking holes in the boat and worry about getting the sail replaced when you get to shore.
It's certainly easy to brush it off if you're not a murdered Uyghur.
It's certainly easy to brush it off if you're not a murdered Uyghur.
> Plug the leaking holes in the boat and worry about getting the sail replaced when you get to shore.
This is meaninglessly abstract. Anyone can offer trite platitudes. Concretely, how do we meet climate targets by the end of the century without China's participation? What additional burden does that put on the rest of the world, and how are we going to meet that when no one is on track to meet their current obligations?
> It's certainly easy to brush it off if you're not a murdered Uyghur.
1. No one is brushing anything off.
2. What's the Uyghur death toll, approximately?
3. I can similarly imply that you're being too cavalier about the people who will die of starvation, disease, and poverty, but I don't think these sorts of ad hominem are very productive.
This is meaninglessly abstract. Anyone can offer trite platitudes. Concretely, how do we meet climate targets by the end of the century without China's participation? What additional burden does that put on the rest of the world, and how are we going to meet that when no one is on track to meet their current obligations?
> It's certainly easy to brush it off if you're not a murdered Uyghur.
1. No one is brushing anything off.
2. What's the Uyghur death toll, approximately?
3. I can similarly imply that you're being too cavalier about the people who will die of starvation, disease, and poverty, but I don't think these sorts of ad hominem are very productive.
You seem awfully convinced that this is an either/or situation.
I see no direct evidence that trying to help the Uyghurs necessarily inhibits our ability to pressure China to slow their climate destruction.
I see no direct evidence that trying to help the Uyghurs necessarily inhibits our ability to pressure China to slow their climate destruction.
I think we can try to help the Uyghurs, but I think we have to do so in a way that allows China to save face (in contrast to the sort of cathartic, show-China-who's-boss sentiment upthread). But yeah, Washington and Beijing don't get along well, and a very fragile peace is emerging on climate. I think an aggressive push on the Uyghur issue would set back Chinese climate policy by years, and scientists seem to be telling us that we need to make a certain amount of progress by the end of the decade. So yeah, it kind of feels like a dichotomy to me.
I wanted to include this in my initial comment but it felt too flippant, but since you asked- I have always outright dismissed the idea of US military action against China for their local human rights abuses until you made me consider the possibility that their global human rights abuses were worse and that you couldn't simultaneously pressure them on both fronts. Congrats, you have made me at least 5% more nihilistic today.
(No, I do not think the US should go to war with China. But if you think that China's climate abuse is an existential threat to humankind surely it has to be considered as a possible solution).
(No, I do not think the US should go to war with China. But if you think that China's climate abuse is an existential threat to humankind surely it has to be considered as a possible solution).
Going to war with China would itself be an existential threat, and thus rightly politically impossible (we in the west can't even muster political support to decommission fossil fuels--how are we going to get ourselves to go to war with our largest trading partner and a fellow nuclear and economic superpower?). Personally I'm going to prioritize solutions that minimize deaths.
This would work about as well as appeasing the Nazis did
Here are a couple of not-rhetorical questions for you:
* Which is worse in your mind? China's treatment of the Uyghurs or global civilizational collapse?
* Does holding China accountable for its treatment of Uyghurs increase or decrease the likelihood that China will cooperate on climate?
* Which is worse in your mind? China's treatment of the Uyghurs or global civilizational collapse?
* Does holding China accountable for its treatment of Uyghurs increase or decrease the likelihood that China will cooperate on climate?
Not who you're asking but I feel like answering on my own behalf.
1) the treatment of the Uyghurs, hands down. Sometimes standing on your principles is what you have to do. Justice be done though the heavens may fall.
2) neither. China will do nothing that makes it harder for them to become the dominant economic, social and military force on earth. If burning coal gets them there that's what they'll do, and if lip service buys them time that's what they'll do.
In case you haven't noticed, nobody is holding their feet to the fire on climate change. Turning a blind eye to genocide is not about climate change, it is about access to the lucrative Chinese middle class.
1) the treatment of the Uyghurs, hands down. Sometimes standing on your principles is what you have to do. Justice be done though the heavens may fall.
2) neither. China will do nothing that makes it harder for them to become the dominant economic, social and military force on earth. If burning coal gets them there that's what they'll do, and if lip service buys them time that's what they'll do.
In case you haven't noticed, nobody is holding their feet to the fire on climate change. Turning a blind eye to genocide is not about climate change, it is about access to the lucrative Chinese middle class.
China is a dictatorship. If civilizational collapse or not depends on the mood of the Pooh Bear, we’re fucked.
Luckily, it does not. Manufacturing is already shifting out of China to multiple other countries, and with increasing automation, might even end up back in the West.
We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway:
- limit emissions as much as possible using nuclear and solar
- scrape carbon et al out of the atmosphere somehow
- take a certain amount of warming on the chin and roll with it… again, somehow
Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
Luckily, it does not. Manufacturing is already shifting out of China to multiple other countries, and with increasing automation, might even end up back in the West.
We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway:
- limit emissions as much as possible using nuclear and solar
- scrape carbon et al out of the atmosphere somehow
- take a certain amount of warming on the chin and roll with it… again, somehow
Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
> Luckily, it does not. Manufacturing is already shifting out of China to multiple other countries, and with increasing automation, might even end up back in the West.
I'm nearly certain that it's not moving out of China into significantly greener countries, and certainly not at a rate that allows us to meet climate targets.
> We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway:
Yes, we will have to do those things anyway, but we in the west aren't even on track to hit targets that are based on the assumption that China and others will do some reasonable share. Unless the west kicks it into gear, we need China.
> Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
No, our civilization is incredibly resourceful. We've never had an advanced civilization until global temperatures stabilized within a few degrees. And we're threatening that because we're worried about the moral implications of allowing China to save face in order to save the world. Ironically you mention WWII, which involved far more, far worse moral tradeoffs than the one I'm proposing: firebombing and nuking civilians in Germany and Japan, starving the Indian subcontinent, etc. To be clear, those may well have been the right tradeoffs to make, but they cost far more lives and saved far fewer than what we're discussing here.
I'm nearly certain that it's not moving out of China into significantly greener countries, and certainly not at a rate that allows us to meet climate targets.
> We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway:
Yes, we will have to do those things anyway, but we in the west aren't even on track to hit targets that are based on the assumption that China and others will do some reasonable share. Unless the west kicks it into gear, we need China.
> Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
No, our civilization is incredibly resourceful. We've never had an advanced civilization until global temperatures stabilized within a few degrees. And we're threatening that because we're worried about the moral implications of allowing China to save face in order to save the world. Ironically you mention WWII, which involved far more, far worse moral tradeoffs than the one I'm proposing: firebombing and nuking civilians in Germany and Japan, starving the Indian subcontinent, etc. To be clear, those may well have been the right tradeoffs to make, but they cost far more lives and saved far fewer than what we're discussing here.
Any manufacturing moving out of China is a good thing, even if it isn’t to a green country. If Vietnam, Phillipines, et al, then those are countries that can be strong-armed / sweet-talked into getting greener. If the West, well, then it’s even more in our hands.
If we take this far enough, and we will, it also takes power out of China’s hands, meaning we don’t really need them to have the warm and fuzzies when we ask them nicely not to pollute. We tell them to stop polluting or we pull a boycott, divest, and sanctions on them.
WW2 was a last resort to stop a very nearly unstoppable madman, but we pulled together and we did it. The insane tradeoffs made was only needed because it was during wartime. Pressuring China need not lead to WW3 (perish the thought) nor need it involve death on a large scale. What’s needed is an intelligent 5-10 decade economic strategy. We did this to scuttle the USSR and it worked, with minimal total deaths.
Regarding the Uyghurs: a million-person concetration camp isn’t about “saving face”. Human civilization isn’t worth saving if we just let this slide because it’s easy and convenient to do so.
If we take this far enough, and we will, it also takes power out of China’s hands, meaning we don’t really need them to have the warm and fuzzies when we ask them nicely not to pollute. We tell them to stop polluting or we pull a boycott, divest, and sanctions on them.
WW2 was a last resort to stop a very nearly unstoppable madman, but we pulled together and we did it. The insane tradeoffs made was only needed because it was during wartime. Pressuring China need not lead to WW3 (perish the thought) nor need it involve death on a large scale. What’s needed is an intelligent 5-10 decade economic strategy. We did this to scuttle the USSR and it worked, with minimal total deaths.
Regarding the Uyghurs: a million-person concetration camp isn’t about “saving face”. Human civilization isn’t worth saving if we just let this slide because it’s easy and convenient to do so.
> Any manufacturing moving out of China is a good thing, even if it isn’t to a green country. If Vietnam, Phillipines, et al, then those are countries that can be strong-armed / sweet-talked into getting greener. If the West, well, then it’s even more in our hands.
If we take this far enough, and we will, it also takes power out of China’s hands, meaning we don’t really need them to have the warm and fuzzies when we ask them nicely not to pollute. We tell them to stop polluting or we pull a boycott, divest, and sanctions on them.
Maybe given enough time, but there's no way this is happening fast enough to meet climate targets.
> The insane tradeoffs made was only needed because it was during wartime.
This is cyclical reasoning. "We only needed to resort to warfare because we were in a war". Typically we justify warfare by something like, "if we didn't go to war, many more lives would have been lost". And if you can firebomb and nuke entire cities to save millions, can we not withhold a rebuke on Uyghurs to save hundreds of millions?
> Pressuring China need not lead to WW3 (perish the thought) nor need it involve death on a large scale.
If we can pressure China on Uyghurs without risking climate, then great. I'm not confident considering the tenuous relationship between China and the West.
> What’s needed is an intelligent 5-10 decade economic strategy. We did this to scuttle the USSR and it worked, with minimal total deaths.
We had a functional government and a more politically united population in the second half of the 20th century. Today we have one party that largely thinks climate change is a hoax and the other does little more than lip service.
Maybe given enough time, but there's no way this is happening fast enough to meet climate targets.
> The insane tradeoffs made was only needed because it was during wartime.
This is cyclical reasoning. "We only needed to resort to warfare because we were in a war". Typically we justify warfare by something like, "if we didn't go to war, many more lives would have been lost". And if you can firebomb and nuke entire cities to save millions, can we not withhold a rebuke on Uyghurs to save hundreds of millions?
> Pressuring China need not lead to WW3 (perish the thought) nor need it involve death on a large scale.
If we can pressure China on Uyghurs without risking climate, then great. I'm not confident considering the tenuous relationship between China and the West.
> What’s needed is an intelligent 5-10 decade economic strategy. We did this to scuttle the USSR and it worked, with minimal total deaths.
We had a functional government and a more politically united population in the second half of the 20th century. Today we have one party that largely thinks climate change is a hoax and the other does little more than lip service.
I disagree with you on the Uyghurs but I think there should be more thinking people in politics. You should go into it.
I feel like there’s a disconnect between people who believe climate change is an existential threat to humanity within the next few years and those who believe it’s a problem that will get worse over time, but not an immediate existential threat. It’s worth pointing out that all doomsday prophesies so far haven’t come true, not just about climate change but nuclear warfare, asteroids hitting the earth, over-population, etc. overstating the immediate risks of climate change will lead to ignoring clear abuses like what China is doing to the Uyghurs.
> I feel like there’s a disconnect between people who believe climate change is an existential threat to humanity within the next few years and those who believe it’s a problem that will get worse over time, but not an immediate existential threat.
I agree. One of many disconnects.
> It’s worth pointing out that all doomsday prophesies so far haven’t come true, not just about climate change but nuclear warfare, asteroids hitting the earth, over-population, etc.
Of these, I think only "nuclear warfare" was an alarm bell widely raised by scientists and it was precisely that alarm bell that led to nuclear disarmament and anti-proliferation policy (which averted the disaster). "We should do nothing because it always works out" is kind of silly when it has only worked out because people have done something. See also Y2K.
> overstating the immediate risks of climate change will lead to ignoring clear abuses like what China is doing to the Uyghurs.
Climate change isn't about the immediate risks (wealthy nations can largely live with a little drought, flooding, and wildfire), it's about the next century and beyond. But yes, I do think we should let this existential threat affect our decisions about Chinese human rights abuses, as a special case. Personally, I would love for the world to have invested heavily in nuclear 50 years ago to the extent that we don't have to worry about China's ego threatening all of civilization, but that's a reality we sadly don't inhabit.
I agree. One of many disconnects.
> It’s worth pointing out that all doomsday prophesies so far haven’t come true, not just about climate change but nuclear warfare, asteroids hitting the earth, over-population, etc.
Of these, I think only "nuclear warfare" was an alarm bell widely raised by scientists and it was precisely that alarm bell that led to nuclear disarmament and anti-proliferation policy (which averted the disaster). "We should do nothing because it always works out" is kind of silly when it has only worked out because people have done something. See also Y2K.
> overstating the immediate risks of climate change will lead to ignoring clear abuses like what China is doing to the Uyghurs.
Climate change isn't about the immediate risks (wealthy nations can largely live with a little drought, flooding, and wildfire), it's about the next century and beyond. But yes, I do think we should let this existential threat affect our decisions about Chinese human rights abuses, as a special case. Personally, I would love for the world to have invested heavily in nuclear 50 years ago to the extent that we don't have to worry about China's ego threatening all of civilization, but that's a reality we sadly don't inhabit.
>global civilizational collapse
This is not even a remote possibility, or indicated in the IPCC reports.
This is not even a remote possibility, or indicated in the IPCC reports.
Hey, pollution is bad, so let's just forget about every other issue affecting humanity.
Sometimes bad things vary in severity.
Using whatsboutism to whitewash the influence of a foreign power in free speech is gross.
What makes you think that you’ll be able to talk about climate change if the Chinese Communist Party decides doing so is against their interest?
What makes you think that you’ll be able to talk about climate change if the Chinese Communist Party decides doing so is against their interest?
More evidence that China's arm reaches quite far, including inside the West.
Because China is willing to play dirty. If they hosted it, they would see Marriot executives arrested for "corruption", or Marriot hotels closed for "environmental damage" or similar things, like how they arrested two innocent Canadians as retaliation for the Canadian arrest of the Huawei executive.
This is why Nike, NBA, Hollywood, ... bow down to China, including inside the US, they know they will be crushed if they don't.
Because China is willing to play dirty. If they hosted it, they would see Marriot executives arrested for "corruption", or Marriot hotels closed for "environmental damage" or similar things, like how they arrested two innocent Canadians as retaliation for the Canadian arrest of the Huawei executive.
This is why Nike, NBA, Hollywood, ... bow down to China, including inside the US, they know they will be crushed if they don't.
I understand how China is an important growth market for the NBA, but I don't think the NBA would be crushed in the US without China.
Plenty of companies could survive without China. They just don't want to part with China's money/market/cheap labor.
Crushed is a relative term of course, but in the last 10-15 years the value of many NBA franchises has gone up 10x due to rise in international viewers, mostly coming out of China. This is something other leagues (most prominently NFL) have not been able to replicate.
Marriot executives arrested for "corruption"
Marriot hotels closed for "environmental damage"
The Chinese government don't actually do these things, they don't really need to, this sounds more like options for the American government.
The Chinese government don't actually do these things, they don't really need to, this sounds more like options for the American government.
[deleted]
I'm not a fan of China myself, but there's some evidence[1] that the two Canadians arrested were, in fact, spies. Personally, I'm not sure what to think. But tweets like this from CSIS[2] are certainly suggestive when viewed in a certain light.
[1] https://canadianpatriot.org/2021/09/29/michael-kovrig-and-sp...
[2] https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441576564374769665
[1] https://canadianpatriot.org/2021/09/29/michael-kovrig-and-sp...
[2] https://twitter.com/csiscanada/status/1441576564374769665
I have never before heard of Canadian Patriot, but from the first sentence of the editor's note, I am led to strongly doubt its impartiality:
Canadian Patriot Review Editor’s note: On September 24, 2021, an agreement was reached to free Meng Wanzhou who had been illegally held captive in Canada since December 2018 . . .
There was nothing illegal about Meng Wanzhou's arrest. The U.S. made a request under a long extant extradition treaty. As for being "held captive," she was released on bail and lived in a home that she owned in Vancouver: very different to the conditions of the "two Michaels." In the end, the extradition hearing was never completed as the arrest warrant was eventually dropped by the U.S.. It was, by no means, a foregone conclusion what the outcome of the hearing would have been. Whatever you think of U.S. motives in all of this, the process was legal.
Canadian Patriot Review Editor’s note: On September 24, 2021, an agreement was reached to free Meng Wanzhou who had been illegally held captive in Canada since December 2018 . . .
There was nothing illegal about Meng Wanzhou's arrest. The U.S. made a request under a long extant extradition treaty. As for being "held captive," she was released on bail and lived in a home that she owned in Vancouver: very different to the conditions of the "two Michaels." In the end, the extradition hearing was never completed as the arrest warrant was eventually dropped by the U.S.. It was, by no means, a foregone conclusion what the outcome of the hearing would have been. Whatever you think of U.S. motives in all of this, the process was legal.
I agree; anyone who thinks the two situations are comparable between "out on bail and living in a Vancouver mansion" vs. "held in Chinese prison with no access to diplomatic resources" has been successfully co-opted by the China-led campaign.
The process for detaining the Michaels was legal as well. Every nation has authority to round up spies. Here's Kovrig's friend playing coy about his intelligence past.
>Edith Terry: Michael Kovrig is a friend, and I am very conscious of the privations he has endured. And while his background is complex and possibly included intelligence gathering for the Canadian government during his diplomatic career, he was very open about his research interests and contacts. [0]
At end of day, billionaire who commited alleged fraud gets treated like billionaires while Spies who commited alleged espionage get treated like spies. This shouldn't be shocking, it's how the game is played. Canada excuting US foreign policy (China Initiative) because US found a paper loophole to kidnap Meng legally doesn't change the fact Canada kidnapped Meng in terms of diplomatic norms in the same way "enhanced interrogation" is still torture. Nevermind that Canada had legally right to drop extradition if case is sufficiently politicized as well. But laws are subservient to politics.
[0] https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china
>Edith Terry: Michael Kovrig is a friend, and I am very conscious of the privations he has endured. And while his background is complex and possibly included intelligence gathering for the Canadian government during his diplomatic career, he was very open about his research interests and contacts. [0]
At end of day, billionaire who commited alleged fraud gets treated like billionaires while Spies who commited alleged espionage get treated like spies. This shouldn't be shocking, it's how the game is played. Canada excuting US foreign policy (China Initiative) because US found a paper loophole to kidnap Meng legally doesn't change the fact Canada kidnapped Meng in terms of diplomatic norms in the same way "enhanced interrogation" is still torture. Nevermind that Canada had legally right to drop extradition if case is sufficiently politicized as well. But laws are subservient to politics.
[0] https://www.chinafile.com/conversation/will-i-return-china
Yes, I almost added an addendum pointing out that China probably had the legal right to detain the Michaels under Chinese law (China is not always great at following its own written laws). In this whole business, let's just say that I have far more confidence in the fairness of the Canadian justice system than I do in the Chinese one.
I also agree that the U.S. most likely took advantage of the Canadian legal system to push a political agenda. That does not mean that the Canadian justice system did anything wrong. An extradition request was received, and so the process has to be followed in order to give a fair outcome under Canadian law. It is possible that extradition would have been refused and Meng Wanzhou would have been released. A big part of the reason that it dragged on for so long is that it was not an obvious straightforward case like most extradition hearings (though coronavirus certainly didn't help).
As for the claim that the Michaels actually were spies, well, I will keep an open mind, but I have not seen any credible evidence of that.
EDIT:
Nevermind that Canada had legally right to drop extradition if case is sufficiently politicized as well. But laws are subservient to politics.
You are seriously misunderstanding the Canadian legal system and the rule of law if you believe this. Laws generally are not subservient to politics except to the extent that Parliament can change the law. The law applies to everyone, politicians included. Yes, extradition can be refused if the motive for the request is determined to be political, BUT the court case must play out in order to determine this. Yes, the foreign minister can block any extradition if they believe there is a good reason to do so, but this would be a highly unusual thing to do as politicians avoid interfering in the legal system. It would be a very controversial thing to do.
I also agree that the U.S. most likely took advantage of the Canadian legal system to push a political agenda. That does not mean that the Canadian justice system did anything wrong. An extradition request was received, and so the process has to be followed in order to give a fair outcome under Canadian law. It is possible that extradition would have been refused and Meng Wanzhou would have been released. A big part of the reason that it dragged on for so long is that it was not an obvious straightforward case like most extradition hearings (though coronavirus certainly didn't help).
As for the claim that the Michaels actually were spies, well, I will keep an open mind, but I have not seen any credible evidence of that.
EDIT:
Nevermind that Canada had legally right to drop extradition if case is sufficiently politicized as well. But laws are subservient to politics.
You are seriously misunderstanding the Canadian legal system and the rule of law if you believe this. Laws generally are not subservient to politics except to the extent that Parliament can change the law. The law applies to everyone, politicians included. Yes, extradition can be refused if the motive for the request is determined to be political, BUT the court case must play out in order to determine this. Yes, the foreign minister can block any extradition if they believe there is a good reason to do so, but this would be a highly unusual thing to do as politicians avoid interfering in the legal system. It would be a very controversial thing to do.
Also I'm sure that crimes committed by billionaires are selectively prosecuted.
This one one seems particularly political, given her crime was trading with Iran against U.S. law. Funny that she is not a U.S. citizen, though.
I wonder how would the U.S. feel if China arrested a U.S billionaire in a third-party country because they broke a Chinese law. File this under "might makes right", I guess.
This one one seems particularly political, given her crime was trading with Iran against U.S. law. Funny that she is not a U.S. citizen, though.
I wonder how would the U.S. feel if China arrested a U.S billionaire in a third-party country because they broke a Chinese law. File this under "might makes right", I guess.
Yeah typically companies get prosecuted for evading Iranian sanctions, rarely individuals, and rarely politically significant individuals. The additional layer of context is DoD started the China Initiative month before which explicitly called for extradition of Chinese nationals for tech espionage. As far as I'm aware, it's the first time US drafted policy to specifically target one country over something general like industrial espionage. So it would be like China getting a third party to arrest a US national under a nacent PRC's Extradite American Act. Then said third party pretend US should totally be OK with them executing PRC foreign policy because it was "legal". The main stream Canadia interpretation of Meng/Michaels drama has been utterly detached from geopolitical reality.
It says a lot that whenever someone presents a new idea that challenges existing views of international issues, we have to remind other posters of our personal alignment against the country on the other side of the fence.
It's okay to try to understand the world beyond conventional discourse. No one should be afraid of analyzing an issue with skepticism.
It's okay to try to understand the world beyond conventional discourse. No one should be afraid of analyzing an issue with skepticism.
Oh come on. It's amazing how a pro-communist editorial has to so thoroughly twist itself up in knots to support the CCP narrative (which it simply regurgitates whole), that it ends up painting a lefty liberal group like the ICG as a sinister imperialist front. It even manages to paint these guy's pro-North Korean activities and promotion of a positive image of NK as somehow evidence of their Imperialist agenda. One of them posting photos of North Korean propaganda parades is painted as "photographing military personnel". If it wasn't deeply sad, it would be hilarious.
I'll admit that my first link is unfortunately pretty poor. Finding any significant investigative journalism on the topic is difficult.
Article written by:
> Aidan Jonah is the Editor-in-Chief of The Canada Files, a socialist, anti-imperialist news site founded in 2019. He has written about Canadian imperialism, federal politics, and left-wing resistance to colonialism across the world.
Site mission:
> With the emergence of China’s New Silk Road (One Belt and One Road Initiative) as a force for global progress, poverty eradication, and peace, Canada has been confronted with an existential choice: Either continue to abide by the rule of monetarism, post-industrialism and war which have become signature features of the Anglo-American system dominant since World War two and run through the City of London and Wall Street, or embark upon a new mission of “win-win cooperation”, respect for the sovereignty of each nation while working in harmony with a community of share interest vectored around long term goals, great infrastructure programs and scientific discovery. This latter system is empowered by the force of new institutions such as the BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and Eurasian Economic Union. New credit generating institutions have been created to advance the expanded New Silk Road vision have come online such as the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), the New Development Bank and the Silk Road Investment Fund to name a few.
Prasing Donald Trump approach to Russian and China:
> European nations are now deliberating whether they should continue to sit in the failed Euro cage, or embark on this project which openly welcomes all sovereign countries as partners in development. Donald Trump’s United States, having broken with the Neo-Conservative paradigm of war with China and Russia, also increasingly moves towards a new collaborative relationship with Eurasia and the New Silk Road. The question is what will Canada do in the face of this historic opportunity?
> Aidan Jonah is the Editor-in-Chief of The Canada Files, a socialist, anti-imperialist news site founded in 2019. He has written about Canadian imperialism, federal politics, and left-wing resistance to colonialism across the world.
Site mission:
> With the emergence of China’s New Silk Road (One Belt and One Road Initiative) as a force for global progress, poverty eradication, and peace, Canada has been confronted with an existential choice: Either continue to abide by the rule of monetarism, post-industrialism and war which have become signature features of the Anglo-American system dominant since World War two and run through the City of London and Wall Street, or embark upon a new mission of “win-win cooperation”, respect for the sovereignty of each nation while working in harmony with a community of share interest vectored around long term goals, great infrastructure programs and scientific discovery. This latter system is empowered by the force of new institutions such as the BRICS, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization and Eurasian Economic Union. New credit generating institutions have been created to advance the expanded New Silk Road vision have come online such as the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB), the New Development Bank and the Silk Road Investment Fund to name a few.
Prasing Donald Trump approach to Russian and China:
> European nations are now deliberating whether they should continue to sit in the failed Euro cage, or embark on this project which openly welcomes all sovereign countries as partners in development. Donald Trump’s United States, having broken with the Neo-Conservative paradigm of war with China and Russia, also increasingly moves towards a new collaborative relationship with Eurasia and the New Silk Road. The question is what will Canada do in the face of this historic opportunity?
> as partners in development
Any country that has ever taken on debt from China would like to have a talk with you.
Any country that has ever taken on debt from China would like to have a talk with you.
Amazing how much hay can be made by dropping a single word:
“A Marriott refused” vs “Marriott refused”.
The text of the article makes it clear that there is no evidence that Marriott as a corporate entity had anything to do with this, ans a corporate spokesperson actually denied that this was policy and as much as said that the local hotel manager screwed up.
“A Marriott refused” vs “Marriott refused”.
The text of the article makes it clear that there is no evidence that Marriott as a corporate entity had anything to do with this, ans a corporate spokesperson actually denied that this was policy and as much as said that the local hotel manager screwed up.
There's just as much evidence in the article that it was Marriott as a whole refusing. The original rejection email specifically said: "We consulted the whole matter with our corporate management"
> "Thank you very much for your visit today. Unfortunately, I have to inform you that we are not able to offer the premises. We consulted the whole matter with our corporate management. For reasons of political neutrality, we cannot offer events of this type with a political theme. Thank you once again for your time and understanding."
> "Thank you very much for your visit today. Unfortunately, I have to inform you that we are not able to offer the premises. We consulted the whole matter with our corporate management. For reasons of political neutrality, we cannot offer events of this type with a political theme. Thank you once again for your time and understanding."
And not but two lines below what you quoted was corporate's response, which doesn't match what the local hotel was saying:
"The Marriott spokesperson clarified in a statement to Axios that hosting the conference would not have violated any "political neutrality" policy, and said the reference to 'corporate management' in the email referred to 'hotel-level management.'"
IOW, it sounds like the local hotel said to themselves, "it's late, and I don't need this shit right now. Tell them 'corporate' says we can't do it."
"The Marriott spokesperson clarified in a statement to Axios that hosting the conference would not have violated any "political neutrality" policy, and said the reference to 'corporate management' in the email referred to 'hotel-level management.'"
IOW, it sounds like the local hotel said to themselves, "it's late, and I don't need this shit right now. Tell them 'corporate' says we can't do it."
I acknowledge there’s a dispute there, but I’m not going to uncritically accept the statement from Marriott’s spokesperson on this issue.
I’m not saying they’re lying, but I also think it would be naive to simply assume that their statement is definitely true.
I’m not saying they’re lying, but I also think it would be naive to simply assume that their statement is definitely true.
Was that hotel franchised or owned by Marriott? If it was franchised, the "corporate management" is obviously not Marriott.
My read of that quote is that even if it's a franchised hotel, the franchisee had been told by Marriott Hotels & Resorts, not that it had consulted internally. It does not make much sense for a single hotel to be so worried about wider damage to the brand.
> My read of that quote is that even if it's a franchised hotel, the franchisee had been told by Marriott Hotels & Resorts, not that it had consulted internally.
If they meant Marriott, I would think they would explicitly say Marriott since it gives them an out for the blame. If it wasn't a Marriott decision, it would be dumb to explicitly say Marriott but they know they have a good chance to dodge blame with just the generic "corporate management".
> It does not make much sense for a single hotel to be so worried about wider damage to the brand.
It does make sense if the franchisee has multiple hotels with some of them being in China. Don't know if that is the case, but it could be.
If they meant Marriott, I would think they would explicitly say Marriott since it gives them an out for the blame. If it wasn't a Marriott decision, it would be dumb to explicitly say Marriott but they know they have a good chance to dodge blame with just the generic "corporate management".
> It does not make much sense for a single hotel to be so worried about wider damage to the brand.
It does make sense if the franchisee has multiple hotels with some of them being in China. Don't know if that is the case, but it could be.
Calling something a "policical issue" is itself political.
It's like not wanting to acknowledge climate change because of "neutrality". There is no clearer way to broadcast a political opinion.
Marrott has taken a stance here, just not the respecting civil rights.
It's like not wanting to acknowledge climate change because of "neutrality". There is no clearer way to broadcast a political opinion.
Marrott has taken a stance here, just not the respecting civil rights.
Calling something a political issue is not political but factual. I think they absolutely should host that conference, but let's not do the tired "everything is political" thing again lest we end up with the:
“You talk to older people and they’re like, ‘Dude we sell tomato sauce, we don’t sell politics," one millennial entrepreneur told me. “Then you have younger people being like, ‘These are political tomatoes. This is political tomato sauce.'" https://twitter.com/emmabgo/status/1453720130412707849
Everything is political and nothing is political. Only the dose makes something political.
“You talk to older people and they’re like, ‘Dude we sell tomato sauce, we don’t sell politics," one millennial entrepreneur told me. “Then you have younger people being like, ‘These are political tomatoes. This is political tomato sauce.'" https://twitter.com/emmabgo/status/1453720130412707849
Everything is political and nothing is political. Only the dose makes something political.
My favorite part:
> Prague mayor Zdeněk Hřib, who attended the conference, said in response: "I hear that China is unhappy about this conference being held here in Prague. Well, I am unhappy there's a country in 2021 that has concentration camps."
I don't know why it's so politically incorrect to call out the Chinese communist party on its human rights abuses. It's clearly a highly authoritarian, abusive country -- one of the major blots on the human race at the present time, along with North Korea.
We ought to be brave and speak the truth about it.
> Prague mayor Zdeněk Hřib, who attended the conference, said in response: "I hear that China is unhappy about this conference being held here in Prague. Well, I am unhappy there's a country in 2021 that has concentration camps."
I don't know why it's so politically incorrect to call out the Chinese communist party on its human rights abuses. It's clearly a highly authoritarian, abusive country -- one of the major blots on the human race at the present time, along with North Korea.
We ought to be brave and speak the truth about it.
I wonder how long it took to come up with the phrase "political neutrality" to explain this, seeing as it's literally the exact opposite of that.
To be fair to Marriott, they are saying it was a local hotel management decision and not a corporate decision, and that their corporate policies would not have restricted this conference. Remember, Marriott doesn't actually own or control (the vast majority of) hotels with their name on it.
To be fair to Marriott, they are saying it was a local hotel management decision and not a corporate decision, and that their corporate policies would not have restricted this conference. Remember, Marriott doesn't actually own or control (the vast majority of) hotels with their name on it.
I have no idea why you are being downvoted, since political neutrality for a hotel should mean - we host everybody no matter their politics. They are doing the opposite of what they claimed to be doing.
I can only imagine that it was the second part of my comment that people take issue with. It's completely conceivable that local hotel management made the decision on their own with no input from Marriott, so I think that should absolutely be called out.
It's definitely one of those quirks of the English Language that enables Doublespeak.
This will continue to happen until the US government backs not bending to foreign actors, as it did with the ridiculous "Interview" movie.
The US handled it well: the govt stood behind theaters who might have otherwise stopped screenings, and local police were outside theaters. Was it worth it for the entertainment? No. It was worth it for a political message.
The US handled it well: the govt stood behind theaters who might have otherwise stopped screenings, and local police were outside theaters. Was it worth it for the entertainment? No. It was worth it for a political message.
This comes after Marriott Cena appologized to China for listing Taiwan as a country on its website. https://money.cnn.com/2018/01/11/news/companies/marriott-chi...
The west has abandoned these people for a buck, and in the process we have abandoned our soul. We should all feel great shame for this.
I think US (not just govt but as a nation) has lost the stomach to put up a fight.
I would add developed Western democracies in general.
I would add developed Western democracies in general.
Not US as a nation, but US elites, some of whom developed rather ghastly fascist sympathies, if not tendencies. They drank the China koolaid.
I will refer to a very insightful description of the state they are in by api (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=api,) I read yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29267217
*> I consider Singapore to be the most dangerous dystopia in the world.
> It's not even close to the worst place to live. That's not the point.
> The thing that makes it the worst is that it is superficially desirable. It's like refined sugar, a poison that rots your teeth and causes dozens of health problems but tastes fantastic and is marketed heavily to children.
> Only a lunatic or an idiot would want to emulate North Korea but many sane intelligent and well-meaning people want to emulate Singapore. That's what makes it so horrible. It's a shining beacon of totalitarianism that advertises that wonderful things can be purchased at the cost of human rights.
> I would rather live, pragmatically, in Singapore than many other countries, but if I were there I'd be fully aware that it's a road to hell.
I will refer to a very insightful description of the state they are in by api (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=api,) I read yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29267217
*> I consider Singapore to be the most dangerous dystopia in the world.
> It's not even close to the worst place to live. That's not the point.
> The thing that makes it the worst is that it is superficially desirable. It's like refined sugar, a poison that rots your teeth and causes dozens of health problems but tastes fantastic and is marketed heavily to children.
> Only a lunatic or an idiot would want to emulate North Korea but many sane intelligent and well-meaning people want to emulate Singapore. That's what makes it so horrible. It's a shining beacon of totalitarianism that advertises that wonderful things can be purchased at the cost of human rights.
> I would rather live, pragmatically, in Singapore than many other countries, but if I were there I'd be fully aware that it's a road to hell.
I worked at Nike and we had the same thing occur. Basically change any and all references of Taiwan to “Taiwan - A province of China” or they threatened to shut down Nike.com in China. Everything else stopped until we made the change. I thought it was weird and showed how much influence China had over even a huge American company and brand. I quit three months ago, have vowed that I will never work for a corporation that chooses greed over people again.
Wouldn't neutrality mean they accept anyone regardless of politics/race/etc.?
> Also in 2018, Marriott fired a U.S.-based employee who used a company Twitter account to like a post by a pro-Tibet group.
This is far more significant than the headline.
This is far more significant than the headline.
Feels like misuse of the company Twitter account (i.e. the official voice of that company on Twitter) for liking anything it shouldn't be liking is firable. "Why is Marriot liking Kanye's tweet?", "Why is Marriot liking someone talking about Joe Biden's infrastructure bill?". "Why is Marriot liking a pro-BLM tweet?" - although that last one would lead to so much pushback...
As someone who manages social media accounts, liking a post can happen without much thought.
Marriot could simply have unliked the post. The firing was symbolic and game theoretic.
The point is that now everyone who speaks in the public sphere will need to know, China cares about X, Y, Z. It's about brainshare.
Marriot could simply have unliked the post. The firing was symbolic and game theoretic.
The point is that now everyone who speaks in the public sphere will need to know, China cares about X, Y, Z. It's about brainshare.
Marriott has a lot of hotels in the third world, and Chinese diplomats and delegates pay money to stay with them. I find it unsurprising that Marriott chooses its business interests rather than taking a political stand.
that's capitalism.
I mentioned this on the other thread yesterday. This is slow and steady retreat in the face of ever growing threat from a totalitarian regime that is hell bent on world domination. People in the country boycott brands and protest at the drop of a pin but I’m yet to see a concerted effort by peopleto show the brands that this is not okay.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273640
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273640
> hell bent on world domination
Is there any evidence for this?
I hear it often enough. We used to say that about Russia, but when the cold war was over and everyone got to look at the historical documents it turns out that they were terrified of the U.S., more so than the other way around, and not as much of a threat as we made them out to be.
Historically China has not been as adventurous as Europeans in this regard, although of course they have exerted a lot of influence in their region before the Europeans dominated them, and later the Japanese. They are dominating minorities in Tibet and the Uyghars, similar to how we've screwed native americans and black folks. It seems like they have been expanding their influence in Africa lately.
Or maybe I don't follow what is meant by domination here. Maybe you mean the way the U.S. dominates the worlds oceans and trade?
I assume that China wants to get out from under that, along with a number of other countries. Nobody likes being dominated by others. I assume they, and others, have been saying the same about us.
Is there any evidence for this?
I hear it often enough. We used to say that about Russia, but when the cold war was over and everyone got to look at the historical documents it turns out that they were terrified of the U.S., more so than the other way around, and not as much of a threat as we made them out to be.
Historically China has not been as adventurous as Europeans in this regard, although of course they have exerted a lot of influence in their region before the Europeans dominated them, and later the Japanese. They are dominating minorities in Tibet and the Uyghars, similar to how we've screwed native americans and black folks. It seems like they have been expanding their influence in Africa lately.
Or maybe I don't follow what is meant by domination here. Maybe you mean the way the U.S. dominates the worlds oceans and trade?
I assume that China wants to get out from under that, along with a number of other countries. Nobody likes being dominated by others. I assume they, and others, have been saying the same about us.
Getting scary how much our corporations are consistently afraid to offend China.
A reminder that's it's not a good idea to outsource the guardianship of our democracy, ideas about justice, and civil well-being to corporations. That's a role for government.
But, where is the HN free speech brigade? Do they not see a connection here?
A reminder that's it's not a good idea to outsource the guardianship of our democracy, ideas about justice, and civil well-being to corporations. That's a role for government.
But, where is the HN free speech brigade? Do they not see a connection here?
Santizing discussion around "political neutrality" when PRC considers WUC a seccessionist and terrorist group with connection to ETIM who has history of terrorist attacks in PRC. I find it amusing how the article compares Marriot hosting Pompeo to WUC, again PRC's equivalent of Taliban. More on the nose than one would think. Looks like crisis management by Marriot throwing the local franchise under bus though. Wonder if WUC will take them up on the offer for other conferences.
Collectively, the West is much more powerful than China, but nobody in the West is nearly as powerful as Xi.
In that fragmentation, he can gain considerable leverage like this, without even having to say a word.
One thing that might help even larger businesses is for government to pass legislation banning this kind of activity, i.e. making judgements on who can attend or not, or at very least, passing it off to the local officials.
That way, Marriott can say 'Sorry Xi, our hands our tied, we had to let them have their conference, take it up with Biden or Merkel'.
In that fragmentation, he can gain considerable leverage like this, without even having to say a word.
One thing that might help even larger businesses is for government to pass legislation banning this kind of activity, i.e. making judgements on who can attend or not, or at very least, passing it off to the local officials.
That way, Marriott can say 'Sorry Xi, our hands our tied, we had to let them have their conference, take it up with Biden or Merkel'.
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I keep seeing folks acting like Marriott is afraid to go against China because they would crush them, but I see it just as capitalism at work. When you have to make the most profit all of the time or SHAREHOLDERS will shut you down then you have to bow to any large market that puts up a complaint.
I don’t see any problem from Marriott. A business is smart to stay away from politics(like Elon Musk on abortion issue), especially when it is difficult to judge who is representing justice(both have bad reputation among certain group of people).
as a powerless person i shared the news on multiple social media and engaged wih the algos to boost it
This kind of behavior will throw us to a nuclear war in some decades from now. Why tolerate a totalitarian regime?
"Only Nixon could open China". Yes, let's send pallets of cash to a communist country in exchange for plastic toys and other end-manufactured goods. This was exploitation of global inequality was only ever going to help the billionaires.
Amazing how quickly people forgot about the existence of the Cold War.
The cold war was ongoing at the time Nixon did this... just getting going really.
the cureent pandemic does not allow me to forget. It is for real and it gets worse like cancer that is not treated.
The World Uyghur Congress is not some politically neutral group made up of concerned immigrants and activists. It has US state backing and intelligence connections.
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-...
Whether you are convinced by the allegations they have made against the Chinese government or not, it's not inaccurate to call it a political entity. Its name is a bit misleading and makes one think that it represents members of this ethnic group around the world.
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-...
Whether you are convinced by the allegations they have made against the Chinese government or not, it's not inaccurate to call it a political entity. Its name is a bit misleading and makes one think that it represents members of this ethnic group around the world.
The USA should make it illegal to kowtow to China like this.
The details of how this law could be structured can be debated, but there has to be a way.
Let companies choose between having US and Chinese business instead of always taking the easy way out.
The details of how this law could be structured can be debated, but there has to be a way.
Let companies choose between having US and Chinese business instead of always taking the easy way out.
I don't think the constitution would allow it. Kowtowing is an expression of something so I would guess it's covered by the 1st amendment.
The question is what the Supreme Court would allow, not what the Constitution would allow. They are often not the same.
The Court has engaged in a lot of spurious reasoning and wishful thinking over the centuries, and continues to do so.
The Court has engaged in a lot of spurious reasoning and wishful thinking over the centuries, and continues to do so.
I would agree that the Constitution would probably not allow it to be banned, but I would say there are many things not protected by the 1st amendment that could be considered an expression of something.
Treason
Obscenity
Libel
Slander
Certain threats
Incitement
Hiring a hit man
Treason
Obscenity
Libel
Slander
Certain threats
Incitement
Hiring a hit man
For sure. I didn't mean to imply freedom of speech is absolute.
People are voting with their cash, and we love companies that make chinese products. For people the only thing that matters is the price tag.
And companies know that, this is why they poured trillions of dollars of investments in an authoritarian regime. They could had invested in any democratic country that respects human rights with labor and environmental laws, but it would not give them the best bang for their buck.
Companies are ran as Monarchies anyway, so authoritative regimes seem better fit for them.
And companies know that, this is why they poured trillions of dollars of investments in an authoritarian regime. They could had invested in any democratic country that respects human rights with labor and environmental laws, but it would not give them the best bang for their buck.
Companies are ran as Monarchies anyway, so authoritative regimes seem better fit for them.
This simply makes good business sense. I would wager they would also refuse to host an Al Qaeda support conference.
I always thought of Marriott as being an ethical company. When the ethics and good business diverge is where things are difficult.
Yes, the level of sacrifice is what shows how much intent and merit is behind a standpoint.
From a business perspective, it makes perfect sense, but moralistically, it does not.
It is very disappointing that even I, as an Asian individual living in Canada, am disincentivized from expressing even my own opinion on China and HK/Taiwan, etc. due to the perceived threat of "consequences" from a government whose reach I cannot easily quantify.