The Zen of Drinking Alone(drunkard.com)
drunkard.com
The Zen of Drinking Alone
https://drunkard.com/the-zen-of-drinking-alone/
289 comments
If you don't mind sharing, what finally made it stick when you stopped?
Most "real [1]" alcoholics try over and over to stop like myself and Bill Wilson. The following story from the Big Book illustrates the problem [2]
Yet he got drunk again. We asked him to tell us exactly how it happened. This is his story: "I came to work on Tuesday morning. I remember I felt irritated that I had to be a salesman for a concern I once owned. I had a few words with the boss, but nothing serious. Then I decided to drive into the country and see one of my prospects for a car. On the way I felt hungry so I stopped at a roadside place where they have a bar. I had no intention of drinking. I just thought I would get a sandwich. I also had the notion that I might find a customer for a car at this place, which was familiar for I had been going to it for years. I had eaten there many times during the months I was sober. I sat down at a table and ordered a sandwich and a glass of milk. Still no thought of drinking. I ordered another sandwich and decided to have another glass of milk.
"Suddenly the thought crossed my mind that if I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk it couldn't hurt me on a full stomach. I ordered a whiskey and poured it into the milk. I vaguely sensed I was not being any too smart, but felt reassured as I was taking the whiskey on a full stomach. The experiment went so well that I ordered another whiskey and poured it into more milk. That didn't seem to bother me so I tried another."
Thus started one more journey to the asylum for Jim. Here was the threat of commitment, the loss of family and position, to say nothing of that intense mental and physical suffering which drinking always caused him. He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic. Yet all reasons for not drinking were
So the problem here is going into a type of trance or hypnotic state, where you forget that you shouldn't drink. Have you ever gone into the next room and then forgotten why you went there or driven for many miles in the car and not noticed anything, but suddenly you "wake up" and notice where you are? That's a kind of trance. Stephen Wolinsky has a good book called "Trances People Live" [3] That I found helpful. Some people are always in an emotional bind that looks like a trance.
In order to quit drinking I had to wake up and remain awake, develop situational awareness, use tools like meditation and Cognitive Behavior Therapy, and a big one is deal with my traumas. I had some that I ignored or laughed at and minimized, but turns out traumas caused me to "space out" more than anything.
You ask an alcoholic why they drank again and they can't tell you why. They don't know. Drinking because you went in a trance state is a really difficult problem to solve and the reason most alcoholics don't recover.
Hope this helps.
Edit: I forgot to add that doing the 4th step is like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and doing the 5th step is like Cognitive Processing Therapy (for trauma) so you can get those for free in AA
[1] I use the term real because some of us in AA use it to distinguish ourselves from people that have 1 too many glasses of wine in the evening and then go to AA as a social club and call themselves alcoholic. I avoid meetings with too many of those.
[2] https://anonpress.org/bb/Page_36.htm
[3] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trances_People_Live/yyy...
Yet he got drunk again. We asked him to tell us exactly how it happened. This is his story: "I came to work on Tuesday morning. I remember I felt irritated that I had to be a salesman for a concern I once owned. I had a few words with the boss, but nothing serious. Then I decided to drive into the country and see one of my prospects for a car. On the way I felt hungry so I stopped at a roadside place where they have a bar. I had no intention of drinking. I just thought I would get a sandwich. I also had the notion that I might find a customer for a car at this place, which was familiar for I had been going to it for years. I had eaten there many times during the months I was sober. I sat down at a table and ordered a sandwich and a glass of milk. Still no thought of drinking. I ordered another sandwich and decided to have another glass of milk.
"Suddenly the thought crossed my mind that if I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk it couldn't hurt me on a full stomach. I ordered a whiskey and poured it into the milk. I vaguely sensed I was not being any too smart, but felt reassured as I was taking the whiskey on a full stomach. The experiment went so well that I ordered another whiskey and poured it into more milk. That didn't seem to bother me so I tried another."
Thus started one more journey to the asylum for Jim. Here was the threat of commitment, the loss of family and position, to say nothing of that intense mental and physical suffering which drinking always caused him. He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic. Yet all reasons for not drinking were
So the problem here is going into a type of trance or hypnotic state, where you forget that you shouldn't drink. Have you ever gone into the next room and then forgotten why you went there or driven for many miles in the car and not noticed anything, but suddenly you "wake up" and notice where you are? That's a kind of trance. Stephen Wolinsky has a good book called "Trances People Live" [3] That I found helpful. Some people are always in an emotional bind that looks like a trance.
In order to quit drinking I had to wake up and remain awake, develop situational awareness, use tools like meditation and Cognitive Behavior Therapy, and a big one is deal with my traumas. I had some that I ignored or laughed at and minimized, but turns out traumas caused me to "space out" more than anything.
You ask an alcoholic why they drank again and they can't tell you why. They don't know. Drinking because you went in a trance state is a really difficult problem to solve and the reason most alcoholics don't recover.
Hope this helps.
Edit: I forgot to add that doing the 4th step is like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and doing the 5th step is like Cognitive Processing Therapy (for trauma) so you can get those for free in AA
[1] I use the term real because some of us in AA use it to distinguish ourselves from people that have 1 too many glasses of wine in the evening and then go to AA as a social club and call themselves alcoholic. I avoid meetings with too many of those.
[2] https://anonpress.org/bb/Page_36.htm
[3] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Trances_People_Live/yyy...
This is real relatable insight I haven't seen anywhere else. Thanks for sharing. I struggle with eating healthy and order out way too much and relate to the same exact phenomenon - one minute I'm driving home and the next I end up at some random drive-through. No memories, no premeditation, no route planning. I didn't leave the house planning to eat out today, and yet here I am, and well now I have a spot in the line and I'm hungry anyways...
I'm trying to apply what I know to food and failing. Now is the first time I've tried dieting and I have a lot more respect for the degree of difficulty. You're right, the issue is very similar
I've hypothesized that a unique problem with unhealthy eating habits compared to other addictions is that you have to eat. I would think at least with something like alcohol or nicotine, what you need to do as an addict is fairly simple (which of course is different from easy). But you can't just cut out food entirely, so it's a much more complex issue trying to eat in a healthy manner. Especially since even being too restrictive and structured can be a problem as well. Do you think there's anything to that?
It'd be near impossible to become obese (or remain obese) if you just cut out sugar and processed foods. Nobody ends up in an electric scooter by pigging out on vegetables and chicken breasts. If you want to get shredded you'll have to do much more, of course, but if you just want to look and feel like a normal weight human, it really doesn't have to be any more complex.
Just as many alcoholics can't handle a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with a friend on a Friday night, many food addicts just can't handle sugar or fast food at all, and would be better off cutting these things out of their lives entirely. It's a more hardcore lifestyle change, but it can also be a psychologically simpler ruleset to follow.
Just as many alcoholics can't handle a glass of wine with dinner or a beer with a friend on a Friday night, many food addicts just can't handle sugar or fast food at all, and would be better off cutting these things out of their lives entirely. It's a more hardcore lifestyle change, but it can also be a psychologically simpler ruleset to follow.
> It's a more hardcore lifestyle change, but it can also be a psychologically simpler ruleset to follow.
It's a hardcore change but "simple" to follow? Isn't that part of the problem? The physical and mental are tightly interwoven. Telling someone they should just eat vegetables and chicken breasts ignores all of the other problems, mental and physical, that could be leading someone to unhealthy habits. In fact, a "ruleset" like this could contribute to further psychological problems and then further physical problems. This is the issue with diets, they ignore all the other factors outside of food.
It's a hardcore change but "simple" to follow? Isn't that part of the problem? The physical and mental are tightly interwoven. Telling someone they should just eat vegetables and chicken breasts ignores all of the other problems, mental and physical, that could be leading someone to unhealthy habits. In fact, a "ruleset" like this could contribute to further psychological problems and then further physical problems. This is the issue with diets, they ignore all the other factors outside of food.
You can cut out entire categories of food or drink though. People drink way more calories than they realize. Drink water instead of soda.
It's definitely hard but the "just say no" approach can work. I do recommend taking it one at a time though. Once you've cut out one thing successfully, add another.
I lost 90 lbs with this approach.
It's definitely hard but the "just say no" approach can work. I do recommend taking it one at a time though. Once you've cut out one thing successfully, add another.
I lost 90 lbs with this approach.
Totally does not work for me. It doesn't help that I figured out the "drinking calories" problem a long time ago and mostly drank water already. Cutting things out just seems to lead to eating more of others, because the problem isn't what food I eat.
It's harder, but the biggest trick was learning to pay attention to what my body was telling me, stop when it first gave me a sign to stop, don't start until it gave me a signal to start, and also... realizing that if you're obese (as opposed to an underweight person with an eating disorder), that maybe spending a part of your day feeling hungry is a sign that you are taking care of yourself. That sounds pretty simple too when you write it out like that, but my goodness just doing that is a so hard (yet effective).
It's harder, but the biggest trick was learning to pay attention to what my body was telling me, stop when it first gave me a sign to stop, don't start until it gave me a signal to start, and also... realizing that if you're obese (as opposed to an underweight person with an eating disorder), that maybe spending a part of your day feeling hungry is a sign that you are taking care of yourself. That sounds pretty simple too when you write it out like that, but my goodness just doing that is a so hard (yet effective).
> maybe spending a part of your day feeling hungry is a sign that you are taking care of yourself.
Yes - may as well feel positive associations with hunger.
Yes - may as well feel positive associations with hunger.
Second this. Setting simple rules is the only way I've been able to make consistent change. No soda. No bread. One at a time. I'm probably down only 20 pounds from my max but I feel so much healthier.
Well, one of the problems with alcohol and nicotine is that you also can't just cut them out entirely. Withdrawal symptoms are brutal and not compatible with modern 40 hour week jobs. Cutting out food, especially sugary ones, probably would bring about some subset of the same withdrawal symptoms...so the problems are more closely related than they appear, IMO (disclaimer that I have never been addicted to either so I may be completely off).
Sure, if you stop you're going to struggle against withdrawal symptoms. As far as nicotine goes, the good news is that if you can stop for a week, the temptation dramatically decreases. If you can stop for two weeks, the residual nicotine has completely left the body and you shouldn't be feeling withdrawal symptoms. If you can be disciplined for just two weeks, you can kick the habit.
It took me 7 years to quit nicotine. The first two weeks were the toughest and every minute my mind was screaming at me to go smoke. The next three months were still constant cravings, all the time, all day. After six months cravings were once a day and easier to let go. The entire first six months were difficult.
It wasn't until about two years later until I would have several days without cravings.
10 years later, I get cravings maybe once every few months and they are easy to let go of. Two days ago I got into a Lyft and someone dropped a pack of cigarettes in the back seat. The temptation was moderate to take them.
I think in part the brain hardwires to confuse nicotine as a type of food. Do not eat for two days, and that is what a smoker feels like for the first 2 weeks. Do not eat fir a day and that is what the first 3 months felt like (all the time, constantly). Your mind is telling you that you will literally die if you don't resolve the urge.
I think this is why relapse is so high for nicotine. You have to be consistently strong every time for months to almost be hone free. During that 7 years I had relapses usually after days, a few times I made it a week or two, once I went 3 months, and had gone 6 months twice as well before relapse.
FWIW, a person just has to keep trying. I admitted that 1) I deeply loved smoking. It is amazing. 2) there is no such thing as one last cigarette. Relapse would likely occur, and when that happens, my cessation efforts would continue.
It wasn't until about two years later until I would have several days without cravings.
10 years later, I get cravings maybe once every few months and they are easy to let go of. Two days ago I got into a Lyft and someone dropped a pack of cigarettes in the back seat. The temptation was moderate to take them.
I think in part the brain hardwires to confuse nicotine as a type of food. Do not eat for two days, and that is what a smoker feels like for the first 2 weeks. Do not eat fir a day and that is what the first 3 months felt like (all the time, constantly). Your mind is telling you that you will literally die if you don't resolve the urge.
I think this is why relapse is so high for nicotine. You have to be consistently strong every time for months to almost be hone free. During that 7 years I had relapses usually after days, a few times I made it a week or two, once I went 3 months, and had gone 6 months twice as well before relapse.
FWIW, a person just has to keep trying. I admitted that 1) I deeply loved smoking. It is amazing. 2) there is no such thing as one last cigarette. Relapse would likely occur, and when that happens, my cessation efforts would continue.
Most of the physical consequences of nicotine go away within a couple of weeks. There's a never ending psychological battle, but that is pretty compatible with holding down a job. Find a way to get two weeks off at once if you have to.
As for alcohol, I'll just say that as incompatible as withdrawal is with holding down a job... being drunk is pretty incompatible too. I think if you can finesse one, you can probable finesse the other.
In general, my observation has been that as horrible as withdrawal is, that's the easiest part of kicking a habit.
As for alcohol, I'll just say that as incompatible as withdrawal is with holding down a job... being drunk is pretty incompatible too. I think if you can finesse one, you can probable finesse the other.
In general, my observation has been that as horrible as withdrawal is, that's the easiest part of kicking a habit.
I was mostly thinking over the longer term.
One way to cut calories is to go fasting. Either you eat or you don’t eat all. It’s easier to control your urges compared to eating smaller meals.
Thank you for sharing. That was an incredible insight into the process and a good behavioral pattern to watch out for, especially because it resonated so much with my difficulties eating too much. I know, that doesn't generally compare to problems with alcohol, but I guess some of the mechanisms are the same. Thank you for being so gracious in providing this.
Do you mind if I ask what was your trauma?
I ask because on the one hand it’s fair to say that I’ve never suffered. Not like my wife. Not like many on this board.
On the other I have have a pain, and I know where it’s from, but it seems so idiotic compared to what others have suffered.
And yet I seek escapism, the trance state where I try to forget my existence.
I ask because on the one hand it’s fair to say that I’ve never suffered. Not like my wife. Not like many on this board.
On the other I have have a pain, and I know where it’s from, but it seems so idiotic compared to what others have suffered.
And yet I seek escapism, the trance state where I try to forget my existence.
Thank you for elaborating. Seeing familiar information in another context, another story-wrapper, is helpful. All this resonates with me, though for other escapes than alcohol, and what finally tipped the scales to learning and practicing was The Blindboy Podcast, particularly the mental-health episodes where he covers CBT, transactional analysis, and how he handles anxiety. Thankfully for me, my family and personal history is similar enough to his (he seems careful to stay within the limits of his experience and knowledge). He also interviews people who know more than he shoes, like Sabrina Brennan and Paul Liknaitzky.
Can you point me to the relevant episodes? I scrolled through and I'm not sure I'm going to find it with titles like "why i want to f Captain planet"
I have very strict rules I follow for alcohol consumption, if for no other reason than I'm the son of a man who was a functioning alcoholic for most of his life.
I've read the big book, and consider it a source of wisdom, even if I perhaps don't follow all of the tenants contained within.
The serenity prayer, which is AA adjacent if not (now) directly part of the AA wisdom is my personal lodestar, it's great wisdom on how to deal with life's challenges.
From it I ascertained that the first two questions one should ask are when encountering something in life are, "is this actually important?" and "is this a problem I can actually solve or make a meaningful difference in helping solve?" - anything one can answer "no" to either of those questions one should just let go of, and try to focus one's energies on other problems.
Also, I'm glad for you, that you found sobriety.
I've read the big book, and consider it a source of wisdom, even if I perhaps don't follow all of the tenants contained within.
The serenity prayer, which is AA adjacent if not (now) directly part of the AA wisdom is my personal lodestar, it's great wisdom on how to deal with life's challenges.
From it I ascertained that the first two questions one should ask are when encountering something in life are, "is this actually important?" and "is this a problem I can actually solve or make a meaningful difference in helping solve?" - anything one can answer "no" to either of those questions one should just let go of, and try to focus one's energies on other problems.
Also, I'm glad for you, that you found sobriety.
I don't drink that much, though it goes up and down over time. I do have a few rules I follow: I never drink on Mondays. I take January as a month of sobriety.
The Monday rule is two fold. First it is a weekly check on alcohol seeking behavior. It is also because all the reasons I can think of for drinking on a Monday are not reasons I want to be drinking. Having a rule helps avoid bad habits.
The Monday rule is two fold. First it is a weekly check on alcohol seeking behavior. It is also because all the reasons I can think of for drinking on a Monday are not reasons I want to be drinking. Having a rule helps avoid bad habits.
Why just on a Monday? I feel like not drinking on Sunday to Thursday would be more useful.
You can do alot of liver damage in 2 days per week. If you think those 5 days sober give you free reign on the other two then you should reconsider your strategy. Although, the same also goes for 1 day per week sober.
The true upside, social aspects of drinking happen for most on the weekends, due to everyone else also cutting loose on the weekends. This is why I have liver scarring at a ripe young age, but to ignore the upside altogether is also foolish.
Indeed, and most weeks I don't drink Sunday to Thursday, but Monday is where I draw the line.
> From it I ascertained that the first two questions one should ask are when encountering something in life are, "is this actually important?" and "is this a problem I can actually solve or make a meaningful difference in helping solve?" - anything one can answer "no" to either of those questions one should just let go of, and try to focus one's energies on other problems.
This puts succinctly something I try to practice that I likely got from the same source. My parents were both in AA for the entire time I knew them and I was carried along to many meetings and, later, went along with them of my own volition. I have a great respect for the organization and, especially, the people humble enough to recognize their need for support.
This puts succinctly something I try to practice that I likely got from the same source. My parents were both in AA for the entire time I knew them and I was carried along to many meetings and, later, went along with them of my own volition. I have a great respect for the organization and, especially, the people humble enough to recognize their need for support.
Sometimes I find others who have the same life philosophy that I have, and I'd always wondered where they came to it from, but its just not one of those things you can ask.
I'm really glad there are others that were able to absorb the AA adjacent wisdom, and transform it into something productive like I was.
I'm really glad there are others that were able to absorb the AA adjacent wisdom, and transform it into something productive like I was.
> From it I ascertained that the first two questions one should ask are when encountering something in life are, "is this actually important?" and "is this a problem I can actually solve or make a meaningful difference in helping solve?" - anything one can answer "no" to either of those questions one should just let go of, and try to focus one's energies on other problems.
This is also a teaching of stoicism. Focus only on those things you can actually change and understand that your reaction to external things is under your control
“The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own…” – Epictetus
“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.” ― Marcus Aurelius
This is also a teaching of stoicism. Focus only on those things you can actually change and understand that your reaction to external things is under your control
“The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own…” – Epictetus
“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.” ― Marcus Aurelius
What tools do you, or other HNers for that matter, have to share about breaking alcohol addiction? Especially covering the hard parts: what are the major hurdles to overcome?
For me, Naltrexone was an incredible help in reducing cravings in the first few months. I came off it after around six months and no longer need it, though I think many people take it for much longer and there's not much downside to doing so.
I avoided AA due to the quasi-religious aspect, but Smart Recovery meetings helped me in the initial phase (https://www.smartrecovery.org).
I was always concerned about the longer term aspect of replacing alcohol in social settings, and there is still some awkwardness there but non-alcoholic beers have really helped for me. The scene has exploded in recent years and they're really quite good, see Athletic Brewing for some excellent craft non-alcoholic beers (https://athleticbrewing.com). In a social setting you could be drinking one and nobody would have to know. I don't hide it but I'm still glad to have something "special" to drink at an occasion. And I drink them alone too: they fill that role of something to drink when I want to relax, and I enjoy that placebo effect.
I avoided AA due to the quasi-religious aspect, but Smart Recovery meetings helped me in the initial phase (https://www.smartrecovery.org).
I was always concerned about the longer term aspect of replacing alcohol in social settings, and there is still some awkwardness there but non-alcoholic beers have really helped for me. The scene has exploded in recent years and they're really quite good, see Athletic Brewing for some excellent craft non-alcoholic beers (https://athleticbrewing.com). In a social setting you could be drinking one and nobody would have to know. I don't hide it but I'm still glad to have something "special" to drink at an occasion. And I drink them alone too: they fill that role of something to drink when I want to relax, and I enjoy that placebo effect.
For me, reading the AA Big Book[1] was a powerful start. I actually went to meetings for a while, and while I realized I had the same tendencies as the people there, I mostly had a problem with binge drinking. I created rules around alcohol consumption which I follow with some loose structure that helped a bunch.
I found the Personal Stories/Testimonies section to be pretty relevant for me, others may find other things. AA fundamentally is the best tool you can find to get you sober, and keep you sober, but it in some ways IMO, works as an addiction transference program. But if you need to stabilize your life, and find your own path to permanent sobriety, AA is literally the best tool you can find to do it.
[1]https://www.aa.org/the-big-book
I found the Personal Stories/Testimonies section to be pretty relevant for me, others may find other things. AA fundamentally is the best tool you can find to get you sober, and keep you sober, but it in some ways IMO, works as an addiction transference program. But if you need to stabilize your life, and find your own path to permanent sobriety, AA is literally the best tool you can find to do it.
[1]https://www.aa.org/the-big-book
Make sure you are never hungry and drink lots of water. Stay busy with people doing things you cannot do if you are hungover or intoxicated. Sometimes just having impending responsibility to others can be enough if it’s merely just temptation. Also getting a monthly injection of time released naltrexone can remove the possibility of satisfaction from drinking. Not advice just possible strategies.
High-functioning alky, here
6-10 9%+ cans of beer in an evening not a problem for me, day after day. On my days off I can start with the cans for breakfast. I 'preload' for social occasions, and time my 'sobriety' to be ok to drive.
Breaking the habit? Have the will to stop. That's both hard and easy. But you didn't ask the question because you don't want to carry on so there's a plus.
I drink as much regular milk as I can when I feel the urges: this is because whacking down beer after it just feels sloshy in the stomach: not unpleasant, just 'sloshy'. And pointless..it takes too long to get drunk.
So, I've pretty much banished the beer of late.
To keep away the demons - when I absolutely feel a binge coming on, I keep a mouthful of liquorice 26% alc in my mouth for as long as possible (as well as having had the milk).
Happy to say I've not been fucked up for well over two months now, and have done several stretches of 5-8-10 and a 14 days with zero alcohol in the last three months.
That's a success, as I've been pretty much drunk for the last 8 years.
And, I didn't stop to buy a crate of beer today - there's none in the house, either.
Breaking the habit? Have the will to stop. That's both hard and easy. But you didn't ask the question because you don't want to carry on so there's a plus.
I drink as much regular milk as I can when I feel the urges: this is because whacking down beer after it just feels sloshy in the stomach: not unpleasant, just 'sloshy'. And pointless..it takes too long to get drunk.
So, I've pretty much banished the beer of late.
To keep away the demons - when I absolutely feel a binge coming on, I keep a mouthful of liquorice 26% alc in my mouth for as long as possible (as well as having had the milk).
Happy to say I've not been fucked up for well over two months now, and have done several stretches of 5-8-10 and a 14 days with zero alcohol in the last three months.
That's a success, as I've been pretty much drunk for the last 8 years.
And, I didn't stop to buy a crate of beer today - there's none in the house, either.
Where does the desire come from?
A different answer from AA, but there are medications such as naltrexone or campral that can help reduce cravings.
I personally have not tried it, but some people use a system called The Sinclair Method (TSM) whereby you take naltrexone prior to drinking, and it is supposed to reduce both the enjoyment you get from alcohol as well as your craving for it, so you would end up drinking much less than normal. I know on reddit, r/Alcoholism_Medication/ has a lot of discussion and resources on it.
I personally have not tried it, but some people use a system called The Sinclair Method (TSM) whereby you take naltrexone prior to drinking, and it is supposed to reduce both the enjoyment you get from alcohol as well as your craving for it, so you would end up drinking much less than normal. I know on reddit, r/Alcoholism_Medication/ has a lot of discussion and resources on it.
The hardest parts for me at the moment is quitting the habit itself, and after that the physical withdrawal symptoms, which are not fun.
How much do you drink a day, if its not too forward to ask?
The answer varies where I might send you to seek help.
The answer varies where I might send you to seek help.
Enough that im horrified by it
Some people are horrified by a six pack a night, sone people are horrified because they keep a bottle in their desk to even things out during the day. Those require different treatment strategies.
It's still a fringe treatment, but Baclofen turned off my alcohol cravings like a light switch.
It did nothing for the underlying causes of my wanting to be inebriated of course, but the "I can't think about anything else until I've had a drink" just disappeared.
It did nothing for the underlying causes of my wanting to be inebriated of course, but the "I can't think about anything else until I've had a drink" just disappeared.
reddit.com/r/dryalcoholics has a decent community
I don't drink alone for the exact same reason.
How some people can function while drinking every night is beyond my comprehension.
How some people can function while drinking every night is beyond my comprehension.
Personal anecdote: I don't drink during the day, only after 9:30pm. It started out as weekends only, i.e. Friday and Saturday. Then I started doing it on Sunday. Then Thursday. Soon enough, I was drinking every day of the week, only after 9:30pm. I'd stay up until about 1am or 2am, sometimes 3am. This worked fine, until I started having to attend work meetings at 9am on the dot. I wormed my way out of some with excuses about personal commitments (my manager understands that not everyone can be available at 9am on the dot).
I need about 150ml vodka and 3 beers to get to the state I want. It wasn't always that way, of course, but it escalated gradually. I don't sleep well, but oh well. It's worth it, in a way. I can forget about my troubles, my bad pay, and my work pressure by drinking and watching movies or playing video games at the same time.
The next day? Sometimes I wake up with a headache. Not often, now that I know exactly how much water I need to drink before I sleep to avoid that. But the next day is always normal and I'm pretty well functioning, if lazy and procrastinating. I just need a 20 min nap after 12pm and I'm pretty much set to function.
Will I stop? I don't know. These things on my mind may seem utterly trivial to some. I wasn't abused, I haven't lost anyone in my family, I live fairly comfortably. But I need to get my mind off those thoughts. I can go days at a time, even weeks, without feeling the need to drink, so long as I just forget about its feeling. But why would I do that? When I have a 2L bottle of vodka and an 18 back of 5% beers? With them, I can enjoy the night more than I would otherwise. That's got to be worth something, at least to me.
I need about 150ml vodka and 3 beers to get to the state I want. It wasn't always that way, of course, but it escalated gradually. I don't sleep well, but oh well. It's worth it, in a way. I can forget about my troubles, my bad pay, and my work pressure by drinking and watching movies or playing video games at the same time.
The next day? Sometimes I wake up with a headache. Not often, now that I know exactly how much water I need to drink before I sleep to avoid that. But the next day is always normal and I'm pretty well functioning, if lazy and procrastinating. I just need a 20 min nap after 12pm and I'm pretty much set to function.
Will I stop? I don't know. These things on my mind may seem utterly trivial to some. I wasn't abused, I haven't lost anyone in my family, I live fairly comfortably. But I need to get my mind off those thoughts. I can go days at a time, even weeks, without feeling the need to drink, so long as I just forget about its feeling. But why would I do that? When I have a 2L bottle of vodka and an 18 back of 5% beers? With them, I can enjoy the night more than I would otherwise. That's got to be worth something, at least to me.
Have you met SREs?
[deleted]
We’re not all alcoholics. Substances affect people in vastly different ways. A key problem is that people do not understand this, that substances and substance abuse don’t work the same across the board and one person’s experience does not extend to the rest of humanity. It is more like there are tribes that don’t understand each other.
I thought I was an alcoholic beyond help but it turns out I was just selfish. I used to drink to get drunk almost every day when I was living with someone, they drank too but not to the excess I did. Then one day they were gone, they passed away and suddenly I found myself alone and responsible for maintaining a home and taking care of several animals. I realized I could not risk something happening to me in my drunkenness and have no one around to help me or call for help, end up dead and leave my animals alone in the world with no one to care for them. So I quit, no shakes, no depression just a few cravings now and then for it but far greater of a feeling of loneliness and missing my best friend in the whole world than wanting a drink.
I don't know if it makes a difference but my alcohol of choice was beer and I consumed between 10-15 every night for around a decade. I still would consider myself an alcoholic because if I drink even one beer, I am going to keep drinking until they are all gone, but I guess I have the ability or wisdom to choose not to have that first drink, or maybe I'm just co-dependent without anyone to make it happen. Lucky for me I suppose.
I don't know if it makes a difference but my alcohol of choice was beer and I consumed between 10-15 every night for around a decade. I still would consider myself an alcoholic because if I drink even one beer, I am going to keep drinking until they are all gone, but I guess I have the ability or wisdom to choose not to have that first drink, or maybe I'm just co-dependent without anyone to make it happen. Lucky for me I suppose.
I have a theory about this which may or may not be correct. When you drink the first drink it has much larger effect on you than the second.
So first beer has an effect and you can make the decision whether you want that effect (with its pros and cons) or not. But if you say yes, then there is less reason to say no to the 2nd drink. After 2nd drink there is even less reason to say no to the 3rd and so on.
So when you contemplate taking that first drink ask yourself: If I do, is there any reason why I wouldn't keep on drinking after this first drink? And by the logic above, there really is less of a reason to say no to the 2nd drink than the first and so on.
But curiously and luckily this logic means that there is also a big reason to NOT have that first drink, because you can assume that its effect is not only the effect that one glass has on you, but also the effect that it makes you drink more. That is a good reason to not drink the first drink. If you don't say no now, why would you say no later?
So I wouldn't consider you an alcoholic just because your first beer leads to the 2nd and so on. You are not alcoholic you are just being logical. If you have a reason to drink the first beer then you also have a reason to drink the 2nd and so on. But luckily because you are logical you can see that it is not a good idea to drink that first beer in the first place.
So first beer has an effect and you can make the decision whether you want that effect (with its pros and cons) or not. But if you say yes, then there is less reason to say no to the 2nd drink. After 2nd drink there is even less reason to say no to the 3rd and so on.
So when you contemplate taking that first drink ask yourself: If I do, is there any reason why I wouldn't keep on drinking after this first drink? And by the logic above, there really is less of a reason to say no to the 2nd drink than the first and so on.
But curiously and luckily this logic means that there is also a big reason to NOT have that first drink, because you can assume that its effect is not only the effect that one glass has on you, but also the effect that it makes you drink more. That is a good reason to not drink the first drink. If you don't say no now, why would you say no later?
So I wouldn't consider you an alcoholic just because your first beer leads to the 2nd and so on. You are not alcoholic you are just being logical. If you have a reason to drink the first beer then you also have a reason to drink the 2nd and so on. But luckily because you are logical you can see that it is not a good idea to drink that first beer in the first place.
This is true. I feel for people that struggle, I really do but it should also be acknowledged that many good and enduring relationships—-romantic and platonic—-were catalyzed by alcohol. Maybe the alcohol wasn’t strictly necessary but empirically it sure helps. That’s not something we should be so quick to dismiss when weighing costs and benefits.
Yeah, alcohol helps us strip away our stuffy adult self and be children again, enjoying life in the moment nevermind the consequences. Thing is, with enough practice and humility, we can express a childlike nature without alcohol. Becoming a parent helped me do this; now I don’t much care what other people think. And, I’m more willing to ask questions of strangers or people I want to get to know. Getting older and accepting death may help with this, too.
I really appreciate this insight. Met my wife at a nightclub 19 years ago, me inebriated, her much less so, and we're still going strong!
I reread what I wrote and don't see where I said what happened to me happens to everyone who drinks
My favourite way to blow of steam is what I call drunken arma3.
The sheer insanity of that game suits a few (by which I mean 2-3 beers, not much of a drinker) every couple of weeks.
It’s incredibly relaxing.
I drank way too much in my twenties (shitfaced every weekend which was normal in the uk back then), stopped entirely for my thirties and now stick to 2-3 once every few weeks.
Not been drunk drunk in 14 years, good on you for getting yourself sorted.
The sheer insanity of that game suits a few (by which I mean 2-3 beers, not much of a drinker) every couple of weeks.
It’s incredibly relaxing.
I drank way too much in my twenties (shitfaced every weekend which was normal in the uk back then), stopped entirely for my thirties and now stick to 2-3 once every few weeks.
Not been drunk drunk in 14 years, good on you for getting yourself sorted.
Can someone explain what Stanislaw ment?
Gabapentin + Clonidine
Don’t know anything about Clonidine.
Gabapentin is often prescribed for depression. It can be taken with other antidepressants. I’ve heard it can cause severe weight gain via water weight and bloating.
Gabapentin is often prescribed for depression. It can be taken with other antidepressants. I’ve heard it can cause severe weight gain via water weight and bloating.
People use gabapentin recreationally?
I don’t even take my full low dose during the day as I don’t like the way it makes me feel (though it’s a very effective drug for me).
I don’t even take my full low dose during the day as I don’t like the way it makes me feel (though it’s a very effective drug for me).
No to stop drinking
What are you suggesting these medications be used for?
A recovering alcoholic can die from "not drinking" -- delirium tremens, the "shakes" that they get in the morning, are a physical manifestation of the transcriptional changes that have occurred in their brains as a result of being adapted to ethanol. The drugs mentioned all modulate neurotransmitters pharmacologically and are often part of the recovery process (the details are quite complex).
Baclofen, titrate up until you reach indifference to alcohol.
Try magnesium chloride daily. Morning and evening preferably.
NAC a couple of hours before your drinking escapade.
A five hour energy drink the morning after. The B’s + folate really help to feel”normal” the after.
Adult drinking is preparing for and mitigating the day after effects. :)
NAC a couple of hours before your drinking escapade.
A five hour energy drink the morning after. The B’s + folate really help to feel”normal” the after.
Adult drinking is preparing for and mitigating the day after effects. :)
This is poetic, but if you break it down into a syllogism, it's clear that this is totally stupid.
Removing the flowery language, here are the claims and supporting arguments, along with my rebuttals.
* Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.
* Drinking alone lets you drink a lot of alcohol fast, in your preferred cocktail or beverage.
- Yes and this is why it is dangerous. Drinking tasty alcohol fast is a great way to get addicted. Or at the very least damage your health, both short and long term.
* Drinking alone provides you with comfortable silence.
- Drinking has nothing to do with this. Alcohol is a non-sequitur. You have to orchestrate the silence regardless of whether alcohol is involved.
That's it. It's just repeating these 3 points in different ways.
Removing the flowery language, here are the claims and supporting arguments, along with my rebuttals.
* Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.
* Drinking alone lets you drink a lot of alcohol fast, in your preferred cocktail or beverage.
- Yes and this is why it is dangerous. Drinking tasty alcohol fast is a great way to get addicted. Or at the very least damage your health, both short and long term.
* Drinking alone provides you with comfortable silence.
- Drinking has nothing to do with this. Alcohol is a non-sequitur. You have to orchestrate the silence regardless of whether alcohol is involved.
That's it. It's just repeating these 3 points in different ways.
This magazine or blog or whatever seems to either be an elaborate joke or bait or something:
>Are you guys for real?
>Yes. While there is some satire involved, we believe to the very core of our >souls every word we write.
>Who are you?
>We are a group of functional alcoholics based primarily in Denver, CO. Included in our ranks are published novelists, filmmakers, English gentlemen, barflies, punk rock musicians, comedians, outright dastards and admitted boozeheads.
>Do you mind the word alcoholic?
>No. We are taking it back from the fascists. Soon it will be considered a compliment.>This magazine or blog or whatever seems to either be an elaborate joke or bait or something
Or you know, part of the once respected in some circles tradition of self-destruction with style, before everybody started jogging and going vegan to live to 100 years old as a "productive" boring member of society...
Or you know, part of the once respected in some circles tradition of self-destruction with style, before everybody started jogging and going vegan to live to 100 years old as a "productive" boring member of society...
There is nothing exciting about drinking. It's a substance, and the only reason people like to associate with famous and interesting people is twofold. a) it gives you an excuse to drink b) it takes the famous person down a notch.
The famous people did not become famous because they drank, but due to other reasons - working their arse off, talent, ambition, networks etc. The reason they are also famous alcholics is just an correlation and not causation.
I don't judge alcohol use but it's an end in itself, and it does not improve anything.
It's nice to enjoy a drink once in a while, but it does not improve a person in any way.
The famous people did not become famous because they drank, but due to other reasons - working their arse off, talent, ambition, networks etc. The reason they are also famous alcholics is just an correlation and not causation.
I don't judge alcohol use but it's an end in itself, and it does not improve anything.
It's nice to enjoy a drink once in a while, but it does not improve a person in any way.
There's always lots of other industrial solvents that are even more toxic by the gram or even relatively few milligrams.
OTOH real decadence has been more sustainable forever the less toxic it is.
OTOH real decadence has been more sustainable forever the less toxic it is.
Being productive can be lots of fun. To each their own of course.
Before we came up with jogging there was church :)
If anything, most of organized religion is about preparing to die. The complete opposite of our current materialism and obsession with keeping personal entropy at bay.
but alcohol is so pedestrian. and socially acceptable. this is somehow even more pathetic than being a weed guy.
style would require an edgier, more risque substance, and a narrative. but you'll never see it. i think even tweakers know better than to spend energy justifying choices to strangers
style would require an edgier, more risque substance, and a narrative. but you'll never see it. i think even tweakers know better than to spend energy justifying choices to strangers
exactly; why not look forwards to new industries in 2100s like that of designer drugs and dance-theatres exploring the discourse of higher dimensional manifolds and the holistic feeling that is existence itself
It is for these that I'm giving up alchol for other things [1]
[1]: https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client...
It is for these that I'm giving up alchol for other things [1]
[1]: https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client...
[deleted]
There's nothing stylish about being an alcoholic, but people often conflate the two because plenty of prominent, stylish people were also alcoholics. Drinking didn't make them stylish, and anyone who thinks getting lit will turn them into Keith Richards is probably a massive burden on everyone who has to put up with them.
Some people could consider drugs in the same way, just look how many celebrities do/did drugs. And many of them was famous to death thanks to drugs (as they died young, but this point like to be omitted)
>as they died young, but this point like to be omitted
Why "like to be omitted"? It's actually part of the allure.
The slogan was "Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse".
Not "Eat kale, be productive, use a task management program, live to 100".
Why "like to be omitted"? It's actually part of the allure.
The slogan was "Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse".
Not "Eat kale, be productive, use a task management program, live to 100".
[deleted]
I definitely used to think that way. It's the type of thing that is a lot of fun to be a part of, until it isn't anymore. It's a thrilling way to self identify, until it becomes your entire identity.
I hope they all end up ok.
I hope they all end up ok.
I was sort of forced out of that identity by COVID lockdown and domestic imperatives. I used to be proud of how many cans I could pound in a session before I got kicked out of a bar. Now, if I or anyone else do that, it's a huge pain in the ass.
I still don't trust people that have never been drunks, though. There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. The problem definitely is when people mistake being a drunk dickhead with being punk.
I still don't trust people that have never been drunks, though. There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos. The problem definitely is when people mistake being a drunk dickhead with being punk.
> There's something about the forceful rejection of social norms involved in becoming an alcoholic that I find resonates with me. It's akin to the punk ethos.
Funny. I've run into many more social norms that promote drinking while socializing, especially at universities and in tech.
Funny. I've run into many more social norms that promote drinking while socializing, especially at universities and in tech.
That makes sense! I never went to college and have never really been in "tech". Of my several dozen close friends, only one went to college and he definitely became markedly different than us as his studies went on.
Drinking is so normative that not drinking became the punk ethos via the hardcore scene, straight edge etc. Two of the most punk guys alive (Ian MacKaye and Henry Rollins) have been sober longer than some people in this thread have been alive. Getting blackout has more in common with hair metal so if your hero is Nikki Sixx, more power to you.
Haha I get that. I love MacKaye and Rollins.
As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. I chalked it up to kids trying to exude a rebellious attitude within the safe confines of the Christian narrative. That didn't seem as authentic to me as the kids who started anarchist punk or satanic grind bands.
Basically, there were some behaviors that served as the narc test. Straight edge kids had a self-declared pass because of their morals. "I don't drink, see? I have an x tattooed on my hand." Those morals conspicuously seemed to align with what "good Christian kids" were taught to believe. This was outlined in stark relief as I realized more and more bands around me labeled themselves as "Christian".
I hadn't revisited that conclusion in a long time, but a cursory glance signals to me that the logic is still sound. It seems like it was my own allergic reaction to cynicism, which I think MacKaye et al might at least respect.
As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort. I chalked it up to kids trying to exude a rebellious attitude within the safe confines of the Christian narrative. That didn't seem as authentic to me as the kids who started anarchist punk or satanic grind bands.
Basically, there were some behaviors that served as the narc test. Straight edge kids had a self-declared pass because of their morals. "I don't drink, see? I have an x tattooed on my hand." Those morals conspicuously seemed to align with what "good Christian kids" were taught to believe. This was outlined in stark relief as I realized more and more bands around me labeled themselves as "Christian".
I hadn't revisited that conclusion in a long time, but a cursory glance signals to me that the logic is still sound. It seems like it was my own allergic reaction to cynicism, which I think MacKaye et al might at least respect.
As I was growing up I found that "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" overlapped too much for my comfort.
While both "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" would not drink I never found them to have much overlap or common ground beyond that. When I was growing up people who self-identified as "straight edge" where far more likely to involved in the far left, anarchist and/or anti fascist scene. I never knew someone who didn't drink for purely religious reasons to describe themselves as "straight edge".
While both "straight edge" and "hardcore Christian" would not drink I never found them to have much overlap or common ground beyond that. When I was growing up people who self-identified as "straight edge" where far more likely to involved in the far left, anarchist and/or anti fascist scene. I never knew someone who didn't drink for purely religious reasons to describe themselves as "straight edge".
I found the straight-edge scene intellectually lightweight and often insufferable. Substance abuse is common among artists for a reason; many are psychonauts. Merely being a drinker does not a psychonaut make, but then again, Hemmingway wasn't just another drunk. Producing art is akin to shamanism.
Hemingway (claimed he) never wrote a word while drunk. In fact he was highly critical of contemporaries who drank and wrote.
Hemingway wrote, and Hemingway drank, but in that order on any given day.
[edit: I agree with your point, I just wanted to clarify re: Hemingway specifically]
Hemingway wrote, and Hemingway drank, but in that order on any given day.
[edit: I agree with your point, I just wanted to clarify re: Hemingway specifically]
Reminds me of my first year in college. A big group of us all thrown into a wild party town, on our own for the first time, learning about ourselves and each other. Only it wasn’t centered around alcohol, it was centered around crystal meth. Of course alcohol, weed, and various hallucinogens were always present but the big thing tying us together was the meth.
Everything was great, if a bit intense, for the first few months. It felt like it was us against the world and we were invincible. Slowly but surely, though, cracks began to emerge. One of us would hit a rough patch, drop out, and move home (sometimes after totaling a vehicle). Others started getting into petty crime and became convinced the FBI was after us - it didn’t help that one girl’s Father actually was a fed who became increasingly concerned about his daughter’s erratic behavior. I think all of us started seeing shadow people and realized the downward spiral we were in.
Things kind of ended after that first year when most of the group couldn’t handle the lifestyle and school simultaneously. The few of us who didn’t drop out went on to varying degrees of success from solid middle and upper middle class lives to one guy who started a company and is now worth a couple hundred million. It was a crazy time with some pretty wild memories that I wouldn’t take back - but certainly wouldn’t recommend.
Everything was great, if a bit intense, for the first few months. It felt like it was us against the world and we were invincible. Slowly but surely, though, cracks began to emerge. One of us would hit a rough patch, drop out, and move home (sometimes after totaling a vehicle). Others started getting into petty crime and became convinced the FBI was after us - it didn’t help that one girl’s Father actually was a fed who became increasingly concerned about his daughter’s erratic behavior. I think all of us started seeing shadow people and realized the downward spiral we were in.
Things kind of ended after that first year when most of the group couldn’t handle the lifestyle and school simultaneously. The few of us who didn’t drop out went on to varying degrees of success from solid middle and upper middle class lives to one guy who started a company and is now worth a couple hundred million. It was a crazy time with some pretty wild memories that I wouldn’t take back - but certainly wouldn’t recommend.
This is what made Pete Hamill stop drinking. After decades of hard drinking, he realized he had always been putting on an act. In fact, he inadvertently started to step out of himself to watch himself not be himself. That realization bothered him so much, he just quit.
I've given away the ending, but his book ("This Drinking Life") is well worth reading. (As a biography, not as a guide to help anyone quit drinking).
I've given away the ending, but his book ("This Drinking Life") is well worth reading. (As a biography, not as a guide to help anyone quit drinking).
I’d just take them at their word they are functional alcoholics who formed a community around being alcoholics. If you think of it as a religion, maybe it makes more sense?
The "taking it back from the fascists" is just too much for me.
maybe its the inebriati
https://youtu.be/VTSCppeFzX4
Instead of drinking, all of these can be accomplished by taking a “spiritual retreat” for a weekend.
It could be a trip into the woods, a religious retreat with other people, or a stay at a quiet hotel far from home.
I’ve done all three. When I have to make the long drive to my parents for a mandatory family get together, I’ll book a hotel halfway to take time for myself.
The idea is to get away from your normal environment and sit down with yourself. I usually bring my kindle and a notebook.
It could be a trip into the woods, a religious retreat with other people, or a stay at a quiet hotel far from home.
I’ve done all three. When I have to make the long drive to my parents for a mandatory family get together, I’ll book a hotel halfway to take time for myself.
The idea is to get away from your normal environment and sit down with yourself. I usually bring my kindle and a notebook.
>Instead of drinking, all of these can be accomplished by taking a “spiritual retreat” for a weekend
That's like saying to someone "instead of kinky BDSM you could accomplish the same by making sweet tender love".
I don't think it works for everybody.
That's like saying to someone "instead of kinky BDSM you could accomplish the same by making sweet tender love".
I don't think it works for everybody.
I think the point is that many of the advantages cited in the article don't actually depend on alcohol, and others are really dangerous. It's akin to the BDSM analogy if there was an article about BDSM where points were "you spend close time with another person" or "you get to feel another person's genitals".
I like getting drunk on my own once in a while, but I agree with the previous poster. The article is unconvincing. Nearly every point is something that doesn't need alcohol, something that is really questionable whether it's actually a good thing, or an opaque metaphor about a monkey. There are certainly advantages to drinking alone, but the article reads more like self-convincing rationalizations from an alcoholic, and fails to actually point out why alcohol is even necessary for most of this.
I like getting drunk on my own once in a while, but I agree with the previous poster. The article is unconvincing. Nearly every point is something that doesn't need alcohol, something that is really questionable whether it's actually a good thing, or an opaque metaphor about a monkey. There are certainly advantages to drinking alone, but the article reads more like self-convincing rationalizations from an alcoholic, and fails to actually point out why alcohol is even necessary for most of this.
I had kind of spiritual retreat when I had to isolate for ten days with Covid. I was scared that I wouldn't be able to cut back on my alcohol usage, but it turns out I hardly drank at all. I poured myself a beer most nights but only drank a little bit of it. That really brought it in focus for me how much of my drinking is driven by self-medication for social anxiety and boredom.
Some people just like to get fucked up. Better not to judge
If bringing a 12-pack to keep you company helps with the stated goal, by all means, bring one. :)
I have a prescription for benzos. I’ve used them a couple of times to help during a retreat. (And family gatherings…) But I found benzos to leave me much clearer-headed than alcohol and they don’t mess with my antidepressant.
I have a prescription for benzos. I’ve used them a couple of times to help during a retreat. (And family gatherings…) But I found benzos to leave me much clearer-headed than alcohol and they don’t mess with my antidepressant.
Majority of people like to get fucked up to escape reality, especially alcohol.
That's fine - but to suggest alcohol is a good way to understand yourself better is bs imo. There are far better ways/substances.
Get drunk when you want to by all means, but don't try and paint it as 'good for yourself'. There are far better substances if you want to do some instrospection!
That's fine - but to suggest alcohol is a good way to understand yourself better is bs imo. There are far better ways/substances.
Get drunk when you want to by all means, but don't try and paint it as 'good for yourself'. There are far better substances if you want to do some instrospection!
>but to suggest alcohol is a good way to understand yourself better is bs imo.
That's not what I got from the article. It seemed to me to say that alcohol could be used to get to know one's self better. Truly getting to know one's self isn't always safe. Nothing risked, nothing gained.
That's not what I got from the article. It seemed to me to say that alcohol could be used to get to know one's self better. Truly getting to know one's self isn't always safe. Nothing risked, nothing gained.
Ethanol destroyed my brother's life and two of my best friends lives, and did serious harm to all of the lives they were connected to. It is a deeply selfish drug. I recommend that everyone never, ever touches it outside of ceremonial use.
I've definitely had realizations drinking alone. It's not a state you want to be in all the time, or even often, but it can be useful. It's sort of like a random jump in the mental search space to get out of local minima.
(Though perhaps I could train myself mentally to be able to enter these more loose states w/o alcohol, and that would be even better?)
(Though perhaps I could train myself mentally to be able to enter these more loose states w/o alcohol, and that would be even better?)
Alcohol isn't special in this regard. There are many ways to shake oneself out of their standard mental cycles. There are lots of other drugs, and there are also plenty of non-drug techniques and experiences.
Yes, very fair point. (Alcohol is very lindy, though!) Any non-drug techniques in particular you've had good experiences with?
Guided meditation, hiking, hot yoga, intensely practicing music, watching challenging movies, skateboarding, scuba diving, and dance lessons come to mind.
Thanks. Alcohol is a poison and getting drunk has nothing to do with finding yourself. I wish people would quit romanticising addiction.
I quit a bit over a year ago. Never properly addicted, but Australian culture has it so firmly embedded it's scary. I'm a better person for it, and I don't miss it.
If I want to feel wasted the next day I'll do 120% in the garage gym. Under the bar I both find myself, experience euphoria afterwards, and retain the ability to be wrecked the next day should I choose to.
But it'll be a good kind of wrecked, more likely.
I quit a bit over a year ago. Never properly addicted, but Australian culture has it so firmly embedded it's scary. I'm a better person for it, and I don't miss it.
If I want to feel wasted the next day I'll do 120% in the garage gym. Under the bar I both find myself, experience euphoria afterwards, and retain the ability to be wrecked the next day should I choose to.
But it'll be a good kind of wrecked, more likely.
>* Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.*
This pre-assumes you can have a honest dialog with yourself sober.
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.*
This pre-assumes you can have a honest dialog with yourself sober.
If you can't, then i don't think alcohol is the solution here tbh.
Sure, it's not a solution in and of itself. It's useful to destabilize you from well-rehearsed thought patterns, though - and if you manage to hit the Ballmer Peak of soggy introspection, maybe you can manage to make some progress.
There are definitely times when something that seemed like inconsequential bullshit a few rounds deep was revealed to be just that upon reflection while sober. Unfortunately it's a fine line to walk.
This sounds like an opportunity to put the beer money towards a therapist for the same effect.
Booze is much cheaper.
> No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.
I've had plenty of interesting insights into all sorts of things while inebriated that remained interesting and insightful long after I'd sobered up. Maybe this doesn't work for you but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone.
I've had plenty of interesting insights into all sorts of things while inebriated that remained interesting and insightful long after I'd sobered up. Maybe this doesn't work for you but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone.
I don't know if this is entirely fair. A drink can loosen you up and stop you from fixation. This *might lead to new introspection.
> * Drinking alone helps you understand yourself better.
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.
I don’t think that the fact that you disagree with a statement qualifies that statement as a syllogism.
I read those three statements as being distinct (for example “preferred cocktail” is a different subject from “comfortable silence”) though I will concede that all three statements do share a general theme of “the author enjoys drinking alone.” However, discussing various reasons for enjoying something does not qualify a statement as a syllogism.
While I also do not generally agree with the author, I’m not a big fan of “things I disagree with are Wrong in terms of fundamental logic. Anything I don’t like but Others do is wrong because those Others lack the fundamental Brain Power to Understand The World(tm) like me. To disagree with me is to commit an Aristotelian error of the highest order.”
It’s honestly an incredibly depressing attitude to come across, and it’s pretty much universally held by people that spend a lot of energy being “Not Mad” at not getting invited to parties.
Maybe you might feel differently about who is the arbiter of logic if you cracked open a nice beer?
- No it doesn't. It distracts you from that endeavor. If you sit at a table with no TV or phone and do nothing, you will have a significantly more interesting and honest dialog with yourself if you are sober.
I don’t think that the fact that you disagree with a statement qualifies that statement as a syllogism.
I read those three statements as being distinct (for example “preferred cocktail” is a different subject from “comfortable silence”) though I will concede that all three statements do share a general theme of “the author enjoys drinking alone.” However, discussing various reasons for enjoying something does not qualify a statement as a syllogism.
While I also do not generally agree with the author, I’m not a big fan of “things I disagree with are Wrong in terms of fundamental logic. Anything I don’t like but Others do is wrong because those Others lack the fundamental Brain Power to Understand The World(tm) like me. To disagree with me is to commit an Aristotelian error of the highest order.”
It’s honestly an incredibly depressing attitude to come across, and it’s pretty much universally held by people that spend a lot of energy being “Not Mad” at not getting invited to parties.
Maybe you might feel differently about who is the arbiter of logic if you cracked open a nice beer?
You must be fun at parties.
I wish I could source it, but I recall reading an anthropological study of drinking that mentioned that solo drinking is universally shunned across all cultures.
There's also something perverse about associating this with Zen given that abstaining from intoxicants is the fifth precept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts#Fifth_precept).
I would never say there is no insight that could be gleaned from this -- people are different, after all -- but I agree with the other comment that this justifies an unhealthy adaptive strategy. We have deeper and healthier modes of self-knowledge than this.
There's also something perverse about associating this with Zen given that abstaining from intoxicants is the fifth precept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts#Fifth_precept).
I would never say there is no insight that could be gleaned from this -- people are different, after all -- but I agree with the other comment that this justifies an unhealthy adaptive strategy. We have deeper and healthier modes of self-knowledge than this.
I think being a loner is generally seen as unusual though isn't it?
I enjoy drinking alone, exercising alone, traveling alone, sitting alone, working alone. I don't really think I'm that weird by objective standards, there are also things I like doing with people (I'm married and have a family), but as a sometimes introvert, I definitely value time alone, including relaxing with a beer.
Related, when I went to university, I lived in residence and i remember sitting by myself at meals and having people come and basically think they were doing me a favor talking to me, because only a loser would want to sit by himself. I found it both annoying (because I wanted to be alone) and condescending (because people see you alone and come talk to you like you must have no friends) - all that to say, society seems to look at you funny if you enjoy being by yourself, so I wouldn't read too much into sllo drinking being shunned specifically.
I enjoy drinking alone, exercising alone, traveling alone, sitting alone, working alone. I don't really think I'm that weird by objective standards, there are also things I like doing with people (I'm married and have a family), but as a sometimes introvert, I definitely value time alone, including relaxing with a beer.
Related, when I went to university, I lived in residence and i remember sitting by myself at meals and having people come and basically think they were doing me a favor talking to me, because only a loser would want to sit by himself. I found it both annoying (because I wanted to be alone) and condescending (because people see you alone and come talk to you like you must have no friends) - all that to say, society seems to look at you funny if you enjoy being by yourself, so I wouldn't read too much into sllo drinking being shunned specifically.
I used to feel very strange when doing anything alone. The lizard brain in me was embarrassed that I'd appear to be a loser with no friends. Then I went on a 2.5 month bike ride across the US. You get real good at being alone doing that. Hours every day spent with no company but the wind and occasional passing cars. Then you'd arrive at camp for the night and sometimes there's be other people there, but often you'd be alone. I'd go eat alone, visit museums alone, and do all the other touristy stuff I wanted alone. It was amazing. It actually made the interactions I DID have so much more meaningful. Particularly with other people doing the same bike ride I was doing. Those were such fun conversations. It's funny, being alone is a skill just like anything else and if you don't exercise it you won't be good at it :D
As a fellow loner, who agrees with the majority of what you just said - let's not meet.
"One of my best friends. We still sometimes never talk."
No one shuns reading alone, listening to music alone, or watching a movie alone.
Drinking alone is more dangerous than drinking with friends.
Drinking alone is more dangerous than drinking with friends.
Watching a movie alone in the comfort of your own home? I get that. Going to the cinema alone? Definitely shunned.
Depends on the circumstance, I used to travel for a living, and attended movies alone not infrequently, I can't recall a single occasion when someone looked at me funny, or asked me why I was there alone, nor would my friends ask "who'd you go with?".
If the topic of drinking alone comes up, there is always a warning or admonishment.
If the topic of drinking alone comes up, there is always a warning or admonishment.
I've never been the the cinema alone in 30-odd years, and would rather not go than go alone. I wouldn't go to a gig alone or a comedy, I wouldn't have dinner at a restaurant alone and I wouldn't go on holiday alone.
All of that is to say that I very much enjoy time to myself to listen to some music with my eyes closed or just to meditate or think, I'm quite happy for solitude, but not to do _things_ (see above).
All of that is to say that I very much enjoy time to myself to listen to some music with my eyes closed or just to meditate or think, I'm quite happy for solitude, but not to do _things_ (see above).
People are built differently. I saw a heist movie alone on my 21st birthday. I prefer movies alone, along with many other things like eating out. To your point, I would rather go alone to the movies or not at all. It's just a better experience.
I live on 40 acres alone. I'm snowed in here currently, without a care.
But I also own a bar, and bars make you lots and lots of friends. And I'm close with my family.
I don't drink alone, but just because I have no urge to drink when I'm not at a bar. I have a bottle that's been in my fridge a few years and isn't even open.
I live on 40 acres alone. I'm snowed in here currently, without a care.
But I also own a bar, and bars make you lots and lots of friends. And I'm close with my family.
I don't drink alone, but just because I have no urge to drink when I'm not at a bar. I have a bottle that's been in my fridge a few years and isn't even open.
That was the point I was trying to make. I don't do any of those things alone but not because I don't like being alone.
I curate my friends, preferring to have few, but who are reliable, I aim not to make friends with people I meet, and the ones I do have been the one's that have clicked.
My wife, on the contrary _loves_ doing things alone, she'll happily go see a film I want to see without me if I can't find the time (she's on maternity leave with our second child currently).
I love in London and it's very common to socialise in a pub here, so drinking alone does have somewhat of a stigma attached here.
That said, I'm not sure why anyone should be dissuaded from a scotch and a cigar once the children have gone to bed.
I curate my friends, preferring to have few, but who are reliable, I aim not to make friends with people I meet, and the ones I do have been the one's that have clicked.
My wife, on the contrary _loves_ doing things alone, she'll happily go see a film I want to see without me if I can't find the time (she's on maternity leave with our second child currently).
I love in London and it's very common to socialise in a pub here, so drinking alone does have somewhat of a stigma attached here.
That said, I'm not sure why anyone should be dissuaded from a scotch and a cigar once the children have gone to bed.
I think drinking alone is probably healthier in a lot of respects.
Alcohol destroys relationships for a lot of people. If they drank alone, it would have a much smaller effect on those relationships.
Alcohol destroys relationships for a lot of people. If they drank alone, it would have a much smaller effect on those relationships.
How? I was in cinema alone and no one cared. No one said a word to me.
Not the person you replied to, but a great example is my now-wife. When we had started dating over a decade ago, she thought I was nuts for going to see a movie by myself while I waited for her to finish her shift at work nearby.
She genuinely couldn't believe I was doing that and thought I was weird for it. Obviously things worked out, but yeah.
She genuinely couldn't believe I was doing that and thought I was weird for it. Obviously things worked out, but yeah.
Yeah I think it’s that’s not normally said out loud, but many people think.
I’ve even caught myself looking at someone by themselves and wondering with some level of suspicion “what/why are they out here” despite me doing the same myself.
I’ve even caught myself looking at someone by themselves and wondering with some level of suspicion “what/why are they out here” despite me doing the same myself.
I think the fact that she ended up marrying you makes this a not-so-great example of shunning.
It is not shunned tho. It is weird because most people go to cinema only because friends do, they don't see difference between cinema and watching at home. Just more expensive.
Take a peek at sibling threads for some real-life examples.
Note that I was only reacting to the absolutes in the parent comment, not saying that I myself condemn people who go to the movies or do any "typical" group activity alone -- at the moment, I am also practicing the craft :)
Note that I was only reacting to the absolutes in the parent comment, not saying that I myself condemn people who go to the movies or do any "typical" group activity alone -- at the moment, I am also practicing the craft :)
I think this is one of those things that people may self-shame over. I've been to plenty of movies on my own. I don't see why anyone else would care.
depends on the friends, tbh
Indeed. Being a part of a young high functioning group of alcoholics leads to some very interesting situations.
In contrast, drinking alone is more of a solemn affair. When I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself.
In contrast, drinking alone is more of a solemn affair. When I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself.
>In contrast, drinking alone is more of a solemn affair. When I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself.
George[0], is that you?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9ydw_aDMg
George[0], is that you?
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9ydw_aDMg
>No one shuns ... listening to music alone, or watching a movie alone.
Hi! I'm an avid music and film lover who has been shunned for going to live music, or movie theaters, by myself. :)
Hi! I'm an avid music and film lover who has been shunned for going to live music, or movie theaters, by myself. :)
It’s weird too, right? Why do people even go to these things together considering you can’t socialize during them. And I don’t necessarily want to talk about them after as I haven’t had time to really form my thoughts.
I had a job where I was on the road often and although I loved being back home I did quite enjoy doing things alone.
I had a job where I was on the road often and although I loved being back home I did quite enjoy doing things alone.
> you can’t socialize during them
> And I don’t necessarily want to talk about them after
Yeah I typically go to live music shows alone these days! The bands I see typically play in standing-room, general admission venues.
My wife doesn't like music nearly as much as I do, and she's particularly short, so standing in a crowd of people who are much taller than her isn't a lot of fun for her.
Ideally I would like to see the show with friends, but... it's still really fun. It's 9493% better than sitting at home, that's how I look at it.
My wife doesn't like music nearly as much as I do, and she's particularly short, so standing in a crowd of people who are much taller than her isn't a lot of fun for her.
Ideally I would like to see the show with friends, but... it's still really fun. It's 9493% better than sitting at home, that's how I look at it.
Is it more dangerous? I don't think so. It is when you already are alcoholic and drunk with friends, you will move to drink alone. And drinking a lot for social approval is very common way to alcoholism.
But beer alone vs with with friends , I am not convinced former is more dangerous.
But beer alone vs with with friends , I am not convinced former is more dangerous.
I think all of your statements need to be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Plenty of people will give you the stink eye if you're by yourself in public. Some arse once loudly informed me I was a loser for being at the movies by myself. That happened once, but it was enough to make me realize that some people really can't fathom the idea of people having fun by themselves.
Drinking with friends is likely to be much more dangerous than drinking alone, unless you're an alcoholic, or your friends are abstaining. Peer pressure is real, and it goes away entirely when you're alone.
Plenty of people will give you the stink eye if you're by yourself in public. Some arse once loudly informed me I was a loser for being at the movies by myself. That happened once, but it was enough to make me realize that some people really can't fathom the idea of people having fun by themselves.
Drinking with friends is likely to be much more dangerous than drinking alone, unless you're an alcoholic, or your friends are abstaining. Peer pressure is real, and it goes away entirely when you're alone.
> Some arse once loudly informed me I was a loser for being at the movies by myself.
This is something public, though, while the parent only listed activities in private. Drinking alone in public is shunned even worse.
Not that I agree with that guy, of course. Enjoy your time at the movies alone, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
This is something public, though, while the parent only listed activities in private. Drinking alone in public is shunned even worse.
Not that I agree with that guy, of course. Enjoy your time at the movies alone, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
> Drinking alone in public is shunned even worse.
It is most definitely not shunned in American dive bars, nor anywhere in Central/Eastern Europe, nor in a hotel bar anywhere in the world.
Getting shit-faced by yourself in public is frowned upon because it’s annoying, but flying solo on a barstool is as common as can be, and nobody has any problem with it in many, many places.
It is most definitely not shunned in American dive bars, nor anywhere in Central/Eastern Europe, nor in a hotel bar anywhere in the world.
Getting shit-faced by yourself in public is frowned upon because it’s annoying, but flying solo on a barstool is as common as can be, and nobody has any problem with it in many, many places.
Everyone has their own set of experiences. I'm just an average guy living in the United States. I am particular, tall and large, so people may not want to challenge me much.
> No one shuns…listening to music alone
This wasn't always the case (before the Sony Walkman introduction in 1979):
"The idea that a person could listen to music on his own was strange and novel. In Capturing Sound: How Technology Has Changed Music, Mark Katz mentions that in 1923, Orlo Williams compared someone listening to recorded music alone to “sniffing cocaine, emptying a bottle of whisky, or plaiting straws in his hair” (Katz, 20). This was an obvious exaggeration, but he emphasized the strangeness that society associated with solitary listening"
https://walkmanproject.wordpress.com/communal-vs-individual/
This wasn't always the case (before the Sony Walkman introduction in 1979):
"The idea that a person could listen to music on his own was strange and novel. In Capturing Sound: How Technology Has Changed Music, Mark Katz mentions that in 1923, Orlo Williams compared someone listening to recorded music alone to “sniffing cocaine, emptying a bottle of whisky, or plaiting straws in his hair” (Katz, 20). This was an obvious exaggeration, but he emphasized the strangeness that society associated with solitary listening"
https://walkmanproject.wordpress.com/communal-vs-individual/
Many centuries ago reading alone (i.e. silently rather than aloud) was viewed with similar suspicion. In his Confessions St. Augustine defends his friend St. Ambrose for his strange habit of reading silently.
Was it this Atlantic article?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
This looks like a great article, but I believe I first saw it here (& thanks to pelagicAustral for finding it):
http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html
And there's some related HN discussion on the article here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488786
http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html
And there's some related HN discussion on the article here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17488786
That's certainly the one I had on my mind, but I'm another user.
[deleted]
That doesn't surprise me. Going against cultural mores and breaking taboos has a long tradition among gnostics and explorers of our internal landscape. It's not a safe and stable life path but it can certainly be rewarding.
- From "Social and Cultural Aspects of Drinking" [0]:
"The most important of these cross-cultural constants in the social norms governing alcohol use is the near-universal taboo on solitary drinking. The fact that drinking is, in almost all cultures, essentially a social act, is recognised throughout the anthropological literature, and ethnographic data from a wide range of cultures indicate that solitary drinking is at the very least ‘negatively evaluated’, and often specifically proscribed."
- Drinking and masculinity in everyday Swedish culture [1]:
""Drinking alone should not be done. To drink alone is to be anti-social (by not wanting to share); it is commonly thought to be an indication of alcoholism. And alcoholism is shameful: to be labelled an alcoholic is a condemnation beyond words…""
- Also touching solo-drinking: "America Has a Drinking Problem" [2]:
"He and his onetime graduate student Kasey Creswell, a Carnegie Mellon professor who studies solitary drinking, have come to believe that one key to understanding drinking’s uneven effects may be the presence of other people. Having combed through decades’ worth of literature, Creswell reports that in the rare experiments that have compared social and solitary alcohol use, drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria, while drinking alone elicits neither—if anything, solo drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
- Pandemic related, "When Drinking Alone Becomes A Problem" (2021) [3]
- From Kasey Creswell, "Drinking Together and Drinking Alone: A Social-Contextual Framework for Examining Risk for Alcohol Use Disorder " [4]
"The context in which drinking occurs is a critical but relatively understudied factor in alcohol use disorder (AUD) etiology. In this article, I offer a social-contextual framework for examining AUD risk by reviewing studies on the unique antecedents and deleterious consequences of social compared with solitary alcohol use in adolescents and young adults."
---
[0] http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html [1] https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97802030... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america... [3] https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/psychology/news/2021/creswell-a... [4] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096372142096940...
"The most important of these cross-cultural constants in the social norms governing alcohol use is the near-universal taboo on solitary drinking. The fact that drinking is, in almost all cultures, essentially a social act, is recognised throughout the anthropological literature, and ethnographic data from a wide range of cultures indicate that solitary drinking is at the very least ‘negatively evaluated’, and often specifically proscribed."
- Drinking and masculinity in everyday Swedish culture [1]:
""Drinking alone should not be done. To drink alone is to be anti-social (by not wanting to share); it is commonly thought to be an indication of alcoholism. And alcoholism is shameful: to be labelled an alcoholic is a condemnation beyond words…""
- Also touching solo-drinking: "America Has a Drinking Problem" [2]:
"He and his onetime graduate student Kasey Creswell, a Carnegie Mellon professor who studies solitary drinking, have come to believe that one key to understanding drinking’s uneven effects may be the presence of other people. Having combed through decades’ worth of literature, Creswell reports that in the rare experiments that have compared social and solitary alcohol use, drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria, while drinking alone elicits neither—if anything, solo drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
- Pandemic related, "When Drinking Alone Becomes A Problem" (2021) [3]
- From Kasey Creswell, "Drinking Together and Drinking Alone: A Social-Contextual Framework for Examining Risk for Alcohol Use Disorder " [4]
"The context in which drinking occurs is a critical but relatively understudied factor in alcohol use disorder (AUD) etiology. In this article, I offer a social-contextual framework for examining AUD risk by reviewing studies on the unique antecedents and deleterious consequences of social compared with solitary alcohol use in adolescents and young adults."
---
[0] http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking5.html [1] https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/97802030... [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america... [3] https://www.cmu.edu/dietrich/psychology/news/2021/creswell-a... [4] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/096372142096940...
"drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria, while drinking alone elicits neither—if anything, solo drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
I wonder how much of this is "set and setting", something that is well known with other drugs. Maybe people tend toward depression when they drink alone because that's what they expect to happen?
I wonder how much of this is "set and setting", something that is well known with other drugs. Maybe people tend toward depression when they drink alone because that's what they expect to happen?
> "drinking with others tends to spark joy and even euphoria, while drinking alone elicits neither—if anything, solo drinkers get more depressed as they drink."
Never been the case for me, even when I used to do it a bit too often.
Never been the case for me, even when I used to do it a bit too often.
Maybe people with depression tend towards drinking alone?
I have zero problems agreeing that drinking alone because one is sad is potentially a very, very, bad habit that in a worst-case scenario can lead to full-blown alcoholism.
Yeah, I have to wonder if people are seriously mixing up correlation and causation.
I think the danger (or lack thereof) of solo drinking is highly dependent on a person's reasons for drinking.
I like to get mildly drunk, alone, perhaps... an average of once per month? I've been doing this for about 20 years with no increase in frequency. The key is, I only do this when I'm happy. It's like a little celebration.
For whatever reason, I do not desire alcohol when I'm feeling down. The thought of alcohol's effects seems repugnant to me at those times.
Yeah, I have to wonder if people are seriously mixing up correlation and causation.
I think the danger (or lack thereof) of solo drinking is highly dependent on a person's reasons for drinking.
I like to get mildly drunk, alone, perhaps... an average of once per month? I've been doing this for about 20 years with no increase in frequency. The key is, I only do this when I'm happy. It's like a little celebration.
For whatever reason, I do not desire alcohol when I'm feeling down. The thought of alcohol's effects seems repugnant to me at those times.
The joy and euphoria aren't a result of the presence of people. They're effects of the drug. Whatever asshole wrote this would probably say the same thing about being sober alone.
That also seems to ignore that people can be drinking to enjoy the taste or sensation of the drink itself. I find plenty of joy in having experimented with a cocktail that worked out to be an improvement, or having a wine or beer that just fits the moment. Sure, both are also fun with other people, but I feel like so many of these discussions assume the people drink purely to become intoxicated with no care for the taste or composition of the drink.
If anything, the depression that comes with drinking for me is that I feel the intoxication and know I need to stop drinking, no matter how much I enjoyed the taste and would prefer to continue and not switch to water or something I enjoy the taste of less. It's part of why I've been so excited by the new innovations and improvements in non-alcoholic beer/hop water.
If anything, the depression that comes with drinking for me is that I feel the intoxication and know I need to stop drinking, no matter how much I enjoyed the taste and would prefer to continue and not switch to water or something I enjoy the taste of less. It's part of why I've been so excited by the new innovations and improvements in non-alcoholic beer/hop water.
Thank you! I think the first is where I first read it.
My 2022 New Year's Resolution is to try out complete sobriety (caffeine excluded; this effectively means alcohol and cannabis). I've never considered myself to have a 'problem' with substances like some people I have known, but I sure have spent plenty of time in my life intoxicated alone. The resolution isn't an ambitious thing because I've been going this way for a while anyway.
Over the years I've slowly come to a realization: These substances have various effects, but at the heart what they really do is make me less aware. Sometimes I guess it's a good thing. Alcohol makes me less aware of the part of me that is self-conscious in social situations, and of how others perceive me. Cannabis makes you feel more aware of experiences, but it proves to be an illusion. I guess they're really not that bad on the balance, but as I grow older and I have spent more and more time thinking about cultivating awareness - of the present moment; of my body and mind and senses; of things in life that are truly important, and which maybe even make me anxious to contemplate - I find that I simply don't enjoy intoxication as much anymore because there's something I enjoy more about awareness.
More and more I hear this nagging voice when intoxicated. It says: "I'm bored; I'm nervous; I'm scared; I'm sad; I'm worried; I'm self-conscious; I'm restless; Someday I will die. What I'm doing right now is trying to be less aware of these things. But maybe they aren't just to be ignored or avoided. Maybe they're an adaptive part of the human mind. Maybe there really is something worth being anxious about."
Over the years I've slowly come to a realization: These substances have various effects, but at the heart what they really do is make me less aware. Sometimes I guess it's a good thing. Alcohol makes me less aware of the part of me that is self-conscious in social situations, and of how others perceive me. Cannabis makes you feel more aware of experiences, but it proves to be an illusion. I guess they're really not that bad on the balance, but as I grow older and I have spent more and more time thinking about cultivating awareness - of the present moment; of my body and mind and senses; of things in life that are truly important, and which maybe even make me anxious to contemplate - I find that I simply don't enjoy intoxication as much anymore because there's something I enjoy more about awareness.
More and more I hear this nagging voice when intoxicated. It says: "I'm bored; I'm nervous; I'm scared; I'm sad; I'm worried; I'm self-conscious; I'm restless; Someday I will die. What I'm doing right now is trying to be less aware of these things. But maybe they aren't just to be ignored or avoided. Maybe they're an adaptive part of the human mind. Maybe there really is something worth being anxious about."
With weed, after I switched to vaping concentrate I found the experience much more empathetic. Like if I was watching something I would deeply feel whatever the characters were experiencing. Maybe it’s illusory but it does feel like I’m connecting to something quite deep. I haven’t really heard other people say that so I wonder if it’s common.
Drinking alone ≠ "Got wicked drunk"
Having a drink alone is pretty harmless. Getting wicked drunk alone is depressing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
Having a drink alone is pretty harmless. Getting wicked drunk alone is depressing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/07/america...
I always drink alone these days, Covid killed whatever superficial drinking groups I had joined. Though I tend to prefer to go out, as opposed to being at home. I’m stuck in the apartment for most of the day anyway.
I’ve never been bothered much by it in the past, but I think I’m quickly getting sick of it. It frankly gets boring, hanging out at bars all night aimlessly drinking. Yeah I talk people on occasion, but we’re normally a little a drunk for the conversation to be interesting or mean anything. Still I prefer if to aimlessly doing anything else, especially sitting at home.
I’ve been called out once or twice, by people curious about who I was or why I was always out alone. My relatively young age probably doesn’t help with attracting negative connotations. However, last week, I stopped by one of my regular bars, and the person next to me effectively called me out as a loser (with much nicer language, and beating around the bush). It ended up agitating me a bit because of how blatant it was. I know it, you know it, but does it really have to be announced out loud?
I’ve never been bothered much by it in the past, but I think I’m quickly getting sick of it. It frankly gets boring, hanging out at bars all night aimlessly drinking. Yeah I talk people on occasion, but we’re normally a little a drunk for the conversation to be interesting or mean anything. Still I prefer if to aimlessly doing anything else, especially sitting at home.
I’ve been called out once or twice, by people curious about who I was or why I was always out alone. My relatively young age probably doesn’t help with attracting negative connotations. However, last week, I stopped by one of my regular bars, and the person next to me effectively called me out as a loser (with much nicer language, and beating around the bush). It ended up agitating me a bit because of how blatant it was. I know it, you know it, but does it really have to be announced out loud?
Sounds like a terrible bar, don’t go there.
I’ve had far more positive experiences going to bars alone than I ever had in groups. Despite what people think it’s still totally possible to strike up conversations with strangers. Sometimes getting to know a stinger is more exciting and mentally engaging than small talk with some mild acquaintance.
On the contrary I always hated going to bars in groups. You’re just paying extra to hang with the same people you could have just split a 12 pack with and had pretty much the same experience at home or at a park or beach. The chances of you having any interaction with anyone outside your group at a bar are minimal if not non existent.
Yeah going to bars is pretty boring, it just doesn't achieve anything, plus it negatively affects your mental and physical health. It's like paying to slowly kill yourself.
Perhaps they called you out because they're concerned about you.
Perhaps they called you out because they're concerned about you.
The realistic alternative to going to a bar alone (as somebody who has gone to bars alone) is drinking alone at home. That isn't really any better for you because at least there is a decent chance to have some social interaction at a bar (unless you specifically avoid it).
Thinking that somebody else at a bar calling him a loser is looking out for his best interest is a little ridiculous
Thinking that somebody else at a bar calling him a loser is looking out for his best interest is a little ridiculous
I disagree
Getting called out for drinking alone seems odd and I've never heard of that happening to anyone I know anywhere. Do you live in a college town?
Seemed common in SF and other major metros I've lived in. You're not going to find many people doing it at hipster bars but it's definitely normal at neighborhood watering holes.
Seemed common in SF and other major metros I've lived in. You're not going to find many people doing it at hipster bars but it's definitely normal at neighborhood watering holes.
If you get called out for drinking alone, you're doing it wrong. Nobody else should be present. :P
People go to bars to drink. It would be silly for anyone to say something about going to a bar to drink, even if you are alone.
Second, it’s never cool to call someone a loser. Maybe they were self projecting. Find another bar.
Second, it’s never cool to call someone a loser. Maybe they were self projecting. Find another bar.
Does anyone here enjoy coding after a few drinks? I don't do this often but on a Friday evening if I feel the fancy to work late and am working on a known problem space-- I pour myself a couple of shots on gin, mix with a bit of lemonade and code away.
I get a lot done in this state as I am purely churning out code rather than constantly second guessing myself, looking for a more optimal ways of doing it or refactoring the code I have written every few mins to improve class/package structure, variable names and so on. Obviously I would never merge to master after a session of intoxicated coding.
And this code looks better than you think on a Monday morning when sober.
I get a lot done in this state as I am purely churning out code rather than constantly second guessing myself, looking for a more optimal ways of doing it or refactoring the code I have written every few mins to improve class/package structure, variable names and so on. Obviously I would never merge to master after a session of intoxicated coding.
And this code looks better than you think on a Monday morning when sober.
I once came home after a work night out, and started coding on...erm..something.
I remember thinking at the time that I was onto something brilliant, only to excitedly pick it back up the next day and look at my code and realize it completely indecipherable. I don't even know what my idea was lol
I remember thinking at the time that I was onto something brilliant, only to excitedly pick it back up the next day and look at my code and realize it completely indecipherable. I don't even know what my idea was lol
Not anymore, but when I did, I've taken on some hairy tasks that were otherwise overwhelming and the code just flows.
Didn't work all the time though - sometimes I'd just be noticeably tired and stupid. And when I hit my 30s that tended to happen more often than not so I hung it up.
Now, with a good night's sleep, the very early morning hours (5am) is when I can get the flow state consistently.
Didn't work all the time though - sometimes I'd just be noticeably tired and stupid. And when I hit my 30s that tended to happen more often than not so I hung it up.
Now, with a good night's sleep, the very early morning hours (5am) is when I can get the flow state consistently.
Ballmer Peak
Before I had to give up alcohol completely, I occasionally enjoyed a glass of wine and a good book on Saturday mornings. Sometimes a shot of scotch once or twice a month. I preferred quietly enjoying a drink alone to drinking with friends. I never needed alcohol to have fun.
I don’t see an issue with the occasional drink. The problem is people talking like the author does, don’t do the occasional drink.
I don’t see an issue with the occasional drink. The problem is people talking like the author does, don’t do the occasional drink.
"Write drunk, edit sober" comes to mind.
Comments seem to be on the moralizing side of things, ouch. I'm sure we're all aware that being an alcoholic is bad, yes, thanks. And yes, I'm sure we can all strive to be paragons of abstinence and Real Zen. But while we're doing that, we might do well to remember not take things too seriously all the time.
Comments seem to be on the moralizing side of things, ouch. I'm sure we're all aware that being an alcoholic is bad, yes, thanks. And yes, I'm sure we can all strive to be paragons of abstinence and Real Zen. But while we're doing that, we might do well to remember not take things too seriously all the time.
I've always thought abstinence was a questionable goal at best. The only reason I can see not to devolve into total hedonism is that it doesn't work. You just end up doing stuff that's bad for you and it's no longer even being fun. The key is bouts of self-indulgence interspersed with working, training and challenging yourself in different ways.
Alcoholism vs abstinence is a false dichotomy. There are safe consumption limits, technically there is no need for total abstinence. But it has to be said that one of the best ways to maintain such equilibrium is precisely to avoid the exact situation this article glorifies. Drinking alone raises the risk of addiction very significantly.
There is something to be said for not being safe all the time.
The idea that you should only drink socially always seemed odd to me, as though the purpose of alcohol should be easier social interactions (when at times it actually causes problems), and as though enjoying the drink because of its taste & characteristics should only be some distant secondary concern.
But nearly everything in this article came across as a fairly odd way of rationalizing what might be "problem drinking" if not outright alcoholism.
I'm sure personal experiences will vary quite a bit here, but I've never found and greater truth about self identity there. I have found that sometimes it seems to assist in creative thoughts, ideas, etc, but certainly not rational thought that I think would standup in the post-hangover light of day.
About the most insightful thing I've found out about myself when drinking is "That was good whisky, but the last one was too much. Let's go drink a bunch of water, some preemptive ibuprofen, and get the coffee set to make a quick cup in the morning." It's not a vision quest.
But nearly everything in this article came across as a fairly odd way of rationalizing what might be "problem drinking" if not outright alcoholism.
I'm sure personal experiences will vary quite a bit here, but I've never found and greater truth about self identity there. I have found that sometimes it seems to assist in creative thoughts, ideas, etc, but certainly not rational thought that I think would standup in the post-hangover light of day.
About the most insightful thing I've found out about myself when drinking is "That was good whisky, but the last one was too much. Let's go drink a bunch of water, some preemptive ibuprofen, and get the coffee set to make a quick cup in the morning." It's not a vision quest.
"Pantsdrunk (kalsarikänni) is a form of drinking culture, originating in Finland, in which the drinker consumes alcoholic drinks at home, dressed in as little clothing as possible, mainly in underwear, with no intention of going out." (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk)
If it's good enough for the happiest country in the world, it's good enough for me.
If it's good enough for the happiest country in the world, it's good enough for me.
It's a way of thinking I went into, and the various recent lockdowns helped quite a lot. I spend good evenings, and enjoyed it thoroughly. But I want to bring up a REALLY STRONG WARNING about it.
It's shunned in most cultures for a reason. You don't want to be the one wasted person in the polite social event, so it helps limiting how much you drink.
The article fail to mentions that alcohol is a VERY addictive substance. Not only you need more to reach the same state, but by enjoying it, you then actively look for it. I went from a few evenings a month, to a daily dose really faster than I expected. When you start to dismiss useful stuff (chores, social commitments) in favor of drinking, you are the definition of an addict. It's also very easy to deny it, but I know very few people who can hold a "dry-january" or refrain from drinking for several weeks.
I was advised to go to an aa meeting, and I went there just to prove myself that I had "no problem with alcohol". That was a huge slap in my face. Seeing others being in denial, can really help you see your own.
So while I understand (and enjoyed) the practice, I would really warn anyone wanting to try that to :
1. Challenge yourself regularly (did I successfully stop for 2 weeks ?)
2. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have the slightest doubt you can't stop.
AA[0] are wonderful people who don't judge, and going to a meeting helps tremendously if you have troubles stopping. I thought it only happenned to others for way to long.
[0] : https://www.aa.org/
It's shunned in most cultures for a reason. You don't want to be the one wasted person in the polite social event, so it helps limiting how much you drink.
The article fail to mentions that alcohol is a VERY addictive substance. Not only you need more to reach the same state, but by enjoying it, you then actively look for it. I went from a few evenings a month, to a daily dose really faster than I expected. When you start to dismiss useful stuff (chores, social commitments) in favor of drinking, you are the definition of an addict. It's also very easy to deny it, but I know very few people who can hold a "dry-january" or refrain from drinking for several weeks.
I was advised to go to an aa meeting, and I went there just to prove myself that I had "no problem with alcohol". That was a huge slap in my face. Seeing others being in denial, can really help you see your own.
So while I understand (and enjoyed) the practice, I would really warn anyone wanting to try that to :
1. Challenge yourself regularly (did I successfully stop for 2 weeks ?)
2. Don't hesitate to reach out if you have the slightest doubt you can't stop.
AA[0] are wonderful people who don't judge, and going to a meeting helps tremendously if you have troubles stopping. I thought it only happenned to others for way to long.
[0] : https://www.aa.org/
[deleted]
This is a whole lot of very artful words to justify what often leads to very unhealthy coping skills. While perhaps useful to have to fallback on in times of crisis, doing this too often deprives one of the social juice and community that makes solving problems easier and less burdensome.
[deleted]
For me the problem with drinking is that it amplifies all of who I am and not really any of who I want to be. I'm a happy kind person so it makes me happier and kinder which is fine, but then I'm also a very lazy person so it just turns me into the worst junk food eating couch potato. Not to mention the hangovers give me the worst anxiety, waking up in the middle of the night heart racing feeling like I'm on the brink of death.
Alcohol tastes good and feels fun but it's just not worth the tradeoffs imo. Maybe when I'm a much older man I'll enjoy it a bit more regularly
Alcohol tastes good and feels fun but it's just not worth the tradeoffs imo. Maybe when I'm a much older man I'll enjoy it a bit more regularly
The waking up in the middle of the night like that is a bit scary. Sounds like you are severely dehydrated
My mother is a highly-functional alcoholic who, in her 60s, still drinks and smokes every day from 6pm to 1am, alone or socially, rain or shine - and she's done that for 30+ years. I'll spare you the gruesome anecdata that the habit produced over the years.
Being an alcoholic is a recipe for hurting people around you. It might not happen today or tomorrow, but sooner or later it will happen, whether you understand it or not. You might think you have a safe routine down, but you're likely oblivious to the human costs of that routine. As coping mechanisms go, it's an expensive and imprecise one. And it's definitely not cool.
Being an alcoholic is a recipe for hurting people around you. It might not happen today or tomorrow, but sooner or later it will happen, whether you understand it or not. You might think you have a safe routine down, but you're likely oblivious to the human costs of that routine. As coping mechanisms go, it's an expensive and imprecise one. And it's definitely not cool.
If you don't mind, I would like to hear some of the anecdotes.
She's still a productive and respected member of society, even in retirement, so I'd rather not humiliate her (or my dad, who is a fundamental abetter in so many ways) in a public forum.
When I drink, I tend to see it as a type of deep ancestor worship.
Some ancient parts of the brain, such as those that control breathing, are resistant to disruption because when they cease to function, you die. Others, like sex drive or hunger, are more resistant because they needed to function in all of your ancestors or you wouldn't be here. Thus these ancient structures must be robust, and that robustness has evolved over millions of years.
Alcohol selectively disrupts the more recent and and less robust parts of my brain. It brings instincts won at great cost to my ancestors over generations, forward to help guide my actions.
Some ancient parts of the brain, such as those that control breathing, are resistant to disruption because when they cease to function, you die. Others, like sex drive or hunger, are more resistant because they needed to function in all of your ancestors or you wouldn't be here. Thus these ancient structures must be robust, and that robustness has evolved over millions of years.
Alcohol selectively disrupts the more recent and and less robust parts of my brain. It brings instincts won at great cost to my ancestors over generations, forward to help guide my actions.
there are far better and stronger drugs you can do alone for introspection.
a night by yourself on shrooms could change you more than 100 nights drinking alone, without the hangover or liver damage
a night by yourself on shrooms could change you more than 100 nights drinking alone, without the hangover or liver damage
Weed is 100x better alone or with maybe one person you’re very comfortable with. It’s kinda fun out in a group but I much prefer listening to music on my headphones and writing and playing games alone.
i hate getting high alone. i get super paranoid -- it's never a good vibe (for me).
i prefer to have a few cocktails/glasses of bourbon by myself while listening to some music and writing some code.
i prefer to have a few cocktails/glasses of bourbon by myself while listening to some music and writing some code.
As someone who has experienced complete ego removal during psilocybin highs, as well as that Goldie Lock zone feeling that is had after 1-3 drinks in solitude I can reliably say that to me both experiences are important and impactful in different ways.
So neither supercedes the other.
Drinking too much and frequently will though have more health impacts for sure. Just don't do strong psychedelics all alone if you are unused ro them. That can end your life in one go (as it has for some).
So neither supercedes the other.
Drinking too much and frequently will though have more health impacts for sure. Just don't do strong psychedelics all alone if you are unused ro them. That can end your life in one go (as it has for some).
A night alone on shrooms sounds like it could go so wrong though.
Really overblown. Maybe in the company of others is better the first time, maybe the second, maybe if you've got a history of psychosis, but in general tripping alone is by far the best way to trip.
Yeah, or only around those you really trust. Otherwise, it just sounds like a terrible experience.
This didn’t go in the direction I was expecting, even as pleasant a read as it was.
I love drinking alone, with strict moderation. Once a week. Never to excess. Primarily, it’s to enjoy the drink itself, undistracted by the socialization normally inherent in imbibing. There are many fine beers at my local liquor store that I’d never find at a bar! There is perhaps an element of drifting off into a world of drunken introspection like the article describes, but such is far further down the path than I would go myself.
I love drinking alone, with strict moderation. Once a week. Never to excess. Primarily, it’s to enjoy the drink itself, undistracted by the socialization normally inherent in imbibing. There are many fine beers at my local liquor store that I’d never find at a bar! There is perhaps an element of drifting off into a world of drunken introspection like the article describes, but such is far further down the path than I would go myself.
Its sad that this seems to have such an appeal. We seem to be becoming all so isolated, despite technical advancements that were meant to make us more connected. Going to a bar and talking to people that are outside your friend group, outside your "bubble", and while feeling the happy inhibition that being slightly drunk gives is healing.
> Going to a bar and talking to people that are outside your friend group, outside your "bubble", and while feeling the happy inhibition that being slightly drunk gives is healing.
Yeah but it’s gets old when you realize it’s all just a meaningless as the socialization you do “ technical advancements that were meant to make us more connected”.
Yeah but it’s gets old when you realize it’s all just a meaningless as the socialization you do “ technical advancements that were meant to make us more connected”.
I make myself a cocktail about every other day, so I'm no stranger to drinking alone... but this smells like a very dangerous attitude about alcohol.
"No bartender to cut you off" - if that happens to you regularly and avoiding it is a big reason to drink alone? That sounds like problem drinking.
"No bartender to cut you off" - if that happens to you regularly and avoiding it is a big reason to drink alone? That sounds like problem drinking.
There are many paths to understanding yourself better and changing your life for the better. I quit trying to be an alcoholic somewhere between 23 and 24 -- finally understood that (1) I am not into it at all, (2) I don't get epiphanies from drinking and (3) the physical after-effects are not worth the hassle.
But I have heard from other people that they get unique perspectives on their lives while drunk so hey, maybe it's worth the liver damage for them?
I personally don't respect drunkards but I try my best to judge less. We're all screwed up one way or another and it takes a lifetime to repair damage that we're practically born with (various character traits).
We call cope how we can. To me risking life-time addiction and damaging a vital organ is not worth it but apparently to many it is.
But I have heard from other people that they get unique perspectives on their lives while drunk so hey, maybe it's worth the liver damage for them?
I personally don't respect drunkards but I try my best to judge less. We're all screwed up one way or another and it takes a lifetime to repair damage that we're practically born with (various character traits).
We call cope how we can. To me risking life-time addiction and damaging a vital organ is not worth it but apparently to many it is.
I don't respect anyone for being a drunkard but I sure do respect a lot of people who were drunkards.
Me too. Anyone overcoming that much negative inertia and then taking their life back in their hands demands huge respect.
A lot of them took their life in their own hands from the get go and brought us back great art nevertheless.
My only drinking alone is I have a glass of Glenfiddich when someone I care about passes away. I'm in the middle of second bottle since I started.
Sorry to hear that matey, the farewell time is difficult. Try to avoid the third one sir and with my remaining Glenfiddich, here is to tomorrow and better days.
I simply love pouring my self a glass or two of scotch and spend an hour or two in solitude staring out at the winter weather and the mountains surrounding my home while low ambient music plays in the background (British Sea Power and Stellardrone are some of my favorites at the moment).
Some of my deepest reflections on my self and my life have come about during those moments.
I do exercise constraint however, only doing this occasionally (1-2 p. month) and limit the amount to 2-3 glasses. So never truly let go like the article mentioned (I don't think that is actually needed, and will become harmful in the long run).
Some of my deepest reflections on my self and my life have come about during those moments.
I do exercise constraint however, only doing this occasionally (1-2 p. month) and limit the amount to 2-3 glasses. So never truly let go like the article mentioned (I don't think that is actually needed, and will become harmful in the long run).
[deleted]
Sounds exactly like something an alcoholic would write :D
All seriousness, last couple years I changed my drinking habits. Grew up in UK so big drinking culture. After moving to somewhere in Asia with a big health focus I quit drinking for a couple months due to the training and it completely rewired me. Before was a habitual drinker, not large amounts but regularly. Managed to totally kick the urge or need to drink and now just occasionally have a beer or glass of wine. Haven't had a serious hangover in a long time.
All seriousness, last couple years I changed my drinking habits. Grew up in UK so big drinking culture. After moving to somewhere in Asia with a big health focus I quit drinking for a couple months due to the training and it completely rewired me. Before was a habitual drinker, not large amounts but regularly. Managed to totally kick the urge or need to drink and now just occasionally have a beer or glass of wine. Haven't had a serious hangover in a long time.
I drink, but only anti-socially.
Fun question: what's more "pathetic" in popular culture: Spending Saturday by yourself reading a book, or drinking a six pack? Until you are old (that is, no longer a relevant 18-40 advertising target), it is #2.
Kinda like its far more socially acceptable to be addicted to heroin than be fat (courtesy of Vince Neil).
This actually isn't that surprising. "Socially acceptable" is partially defined in our ad-saturated world by the advertising industry. Corporate america can't get you to engage in onanistic consumption during work, because that is THEIR time.
That leaves your leisure time for moving their wares. Social activities as an adult are dominated by access to alcohol, because the alcohol companies spend billions each year in cultural propaganda inserting themselves as the organizing basis of adult social interaction.
This reminds me that in my lifetime the "key demographic" went from 18-30 to 18-40, and we have the rise of "40 is the new 30". I think a lot of that is how advertising has shifted our culture to intense consumption rather than "adult" stuff like raising kids.
Kinda like its far more socially acceptable to be addicted to heroin than be fat (courtesy of Vince Neil).
This actually isn't that surprising. "Socially acceptable" is partially defined in our ad-saturated world by the advertising industry. Corporate america can't get you to engage in onanistic consumption during work, because that is THEIR time.
That leaves your leisure time for moving their wares. Social activities as an adult are dominated by access to alcohol, because the alcohol companies spend billions each year in cultural propaganda inserting themselves as the organizing basis of adult social interaction.
This reminds me that in my lifetime the "key demographic" went from 18-30 to 18-40, and we have the rise of "40 is the new 30". I think a lot of that is how advertising has shifted our culture to intense consumption rather than "adult" stuff like raising kids.
I drink alone, and have decided it's the best path for me (YMMV).
I see alcohol as a "frenemy", of which I'm OK with so long as I remain leery of it. There is no "healthy" amount of alcohol to consume -- it's basically poison. Rather, I see it as "not ununhealthy" to consume small amounts, in strict moderation. For me, that's at most 2 Ol' Fashions on weekends (Fri,Sat,Sun) - each measured (1.5 oz). I want no daily relationship with it, and I also want no drinking buddies (where drinking is a purpose/sub-purpose being together). I don't want to talk about booze, or times spent drinking. Outside of that, my strict rule is: alcohol is never allowed for stress relief, only for celebration.
I think this view and rule set make me a pretty boring, weird drinking companion for others, anyway, so it's likely best for all. I grew up with alcoholism destroying lives all around me, which I guess led me to distrust it. I regard it as healthy distrust.
I see alcohol as a "frenemy", of which I'm OK with so long as I remain leery of it. There is no "healthy" amount of alcohol to consume -- it's basically poison. Rather, I see it as "not ununhealthy" to consume small amounts, in strict moderation. For me, that's at most 2 Ol' Fashions on weekends (Fri,Sat,Sun) - each measured (1.5 oz). I want no daily relationship with it, and I also want no drinking buddies (where drinking is a purpose/sub-purpose being together). I don't want to talk about booze, or times spent drinking. Outside of that, my strict rule is: alcohol is never allowed for stress relief, only for celebration.
I think this view and rule set make me a pretty boring, weird drinking companion for others, anyway, so it's likely best for all. I grew up with alcoholism destroying lives all around me, which I guess led me to distrust it. I regard it as healthy distrust.
I registered here while drinking alone, and now look what I’m stuck with
"It gets down to what drinking is all about: getting loaded, and by doing that, getting down to the inner you. The inner joy, the inner madness, the subconscious you, the real you"
No, except for alcoholics, drinking is not just about getting loaded.
And for inner journeys, there are way better drugs avaiable, or - how boring, paths without any drugs at all.
No, except for alcoholics, drinking is not just about getting loaded.
And for inner journeys, there are way better drugs avaiable, or - how boring, paths without any drugs at all.
It's funny reading this article in the middle of dry January (I've been observing the informal month since college). Tangential to the article, but the weirdest thing about not drinking is realizing that you don't even like some of the people you hang out with when you drink.
Hilarious! It can very much be the opposite too. I know a guy who is an in-denial-alcoholic (I can't remember the last time he was really sober) and he's just become such a piece of shit over the years he has basically alienated everyone in our social group. It's sad and yet bringing it up isn't even worth the trouble since it just creates an angry defensive meltdown.
Drinking alone might be fun but, seems like if you let it go on long enough you won't have an alternative to being alone.
Drinking alone might be fun but, seems like if you let it go on long enough you won't have an alternative to being alone.
Whenever I drink, it's all fun and I'm buzzed, feeling funny... Then it starts to make me melancholic. This feeling doesn't stop when the alcohol is out of my system a few days after. It takes me about 3-4 weeks to feel truly "normal" again...
Can anyone relate to this or am I an alien?
Can anyone relate to this or am I an alien?
I can relate! It's gotten to a point where I'm seriously considering if it's worth it at all. Sometimes I feel outright depressed after having had some drinks the night before, to a point where the observer in my mind is shocked at the dark thoughts I'm having.
I have a fructose malabsorption and most drinks I enjoy (wine, cocktails) do have a huge amount of this sugar in them. I wonder if this might be one of the reasons it's messing with my mood so much - I recall my gastro-doc saying something along the line that high fructose intake can lead to depression/symptoms of depression.
Alcohol itself is a depressant and can lead to depression or make depression worse. It’s best to avoid it entirely if you have a history of depression, or at least take extreme care to watch your consumption of it and its relation to your symptoms.
No, sounds fairly typical when I compare it to my own experience and to those of my friends. Many of us used to be "social drinkers" in our youth but have basically slowly faded it out since, and each of us realized for themself how it can take a week or so to get back to "normal mood" after even a single drink.
I’ve repeatedly tried utilizing alcohol for fun or relaxation and it just simply doesn’t work for me. It’s never an enjoyable sensation by any measure. I’m curious how common this is and if there’s many others readily available with the same story?
[deleted]
[deleted]
The rich "glamp" like the poor get homeless and those for whom company is a choice think doing things alone is ok, even a treat. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion, so long as one chooses to be alone or do things alone.
I would just like to emplore such people to seek an alternative perspective that their experience might be drastically different if they did not choose the situation to start with.
Chosing to drink alone and not having someone to drink with are different things. If you are in the latter camp, don't try to normalize or enjoy the situation. Find a drinking buddy or figure out how to meet and make such friends.
I would just like to emplore such people to seek an alternative perspective that their experience might be drastically different if they did not choose the situation to start with.
Chosing to drink alone and not having someone to drink with are different things. If you are in the latter camp, don't try to normalize or enjoy the situation. Find a drinking buddy or figure out how to meet and make such friends.
Any suggestions or resources on how to make friends or drinking buddies quickly when you have none in a location?
Personally, I've had to move cities about every 6 months for the last 3 years while working from home. It's hard enough to make friends as an adult, let alone while constantly moving.
Personally, I've had to move cities about every 6 months for the last 3 years while working from home. It's hard enough to make friends as an adult, let alone while constantly moving.
Looking for suggestions myself
This is a fail of an article written by what sounds like an alcoholic in denial
Whenever I drink, I do it alone, and it's because I don't have much else to do. I'd rather be doing something else, but Covid has made the area I live in insufferably boring.
Yeah same, even prior to covid there’s not much for someone like myself to do on the weekends unless I really want to start losing money.
The article jumps a bit fast from “drinking” and “getting drunk”, when there’s a line there that some of us try to not cross, social situations included.
Otherwise yes, drinking alone, just like eating alone can be wildly enjoyable.
I’d also warmly recommend to people who can do it to get mildly drunk once in a while (every year or two?). Do it with a trusting partner who stays clear, and check where’s the line and how it feels when you come close and then past it.
Otherwise yes, drinking alone, just like eating alone can be wildly enjoyable.
I’d also warmly recommend to people who can do it to get mildly drunk once in a while (every year or two?). Do it with a trusting partner who stays clear, and check where’s the line and how it feels when you come close and then past it.
>jumps a bit fast from “drinking” and “getting drunk”
This is precisely what disturbed me. Enjoying a book, videogame, binge watching etc. while enjoying 1-2 drinks sipping a nice whiskey or beer, that's fine. (for men more than 2-3/day and more than 14/week total is classed as problem drinking. And the 2-3/14 is not a recommendation, it's more an absolute max)
Occasionally exceeding this daily mark? Probably no big deal. (For values of occasionally that have months in between them and never include negative consequence as a result beyond "yep, gonna need some ibuprofen and a coffee")
If you exceed 14 in a week even occasionally though, that seems a bit more problematic. Any addiction can be perniciously subtle, slowly creeping up where each tiny increment seems like no big deal. I'm guessing that a lot of people feel they can stop any time because along that incremental process, at some point they could have stopped, but when they reached beyond that point there was no sign marking the road to let them know it.
This is precisely what disturbed me. Enjoying a book, videogame, binge watching etc. while enjoying 1-2 drinks sipping a nice whiskey or beer, that's fine. (for men more than 2-3/day and more than 14/week total is classed as problem drinking. And the 2-3/14 is not a recommendation, it's more an absolute max)
Occasionally exceeding this daily mark? Probably no big deal. (For values of occasionally that have months in between them and never include negative consequence as a result beyond "yep, gonna need some ibuprofen and a coffee")
If you exceed 14 in a week even occasionally though, that seems a bit more problematic. Any addiction can be perniciously subtle, slowly creeping up where each tiny increment seems like no big deal. I'm guessing that a lot of people feel they can stop any time because along that incremental process, at some point they could have stopped, but when they reached beyond that point there was no sign marking the road to let them know it.
[deleted]
I know very few people who can consistently drink alone, and drink very little. Maybe once or twice a year would be fine, but who does anything with such long frequency?
Rather, I see people who normalize alcohol consumption on a pretty regular scale (2-3 times per week, each day per week, each weekend etc.) and of those, quite a few have a chance to increase their consumption to full on alcoholism IF there isn't some other reasonable constraint. Only drinking socially is such a constraint.
I have seen too many people who say: "I am fine to have a shot of this, or a glas of that" when in reality they drink a lot more than that.
Edit: That being said, the Hunter S. Thompson full on alcoholism lifestyle is a valid choice. Not everyone needs to be healthy and have a long, productive life or whatever. Some sort of nihilistic, self-destructive Zen philosophy can also be a net positive for the world, especially in the arts. I just personally think it's a choice that leads to a painful, sad and miserable end. The problem is - who really chooses this conciously? As long the author uses flowery language instead of just saying it's alcoholism as a lifestyle, I think something is amiss.
Rather, I see people who normalize alcohol consumption on a pretty regular scale (2-3 times per week, each day per week, each weekend etc.) and of those, quite a few have a chance to increase their consumption to full on alcoholism IF there isn't some other reasonable constraint. Only drinking socially is such a constraint.
I have seen too many people who say: "I am fine to have a shot of this, or a glas of that" when in reality they drink a lot more than that.
Edit: That being said, the Hunter S. Thompson full on alcoholism lifestyle is a valid choice. Not everyone needs to be healthy and have a long, productive life or whatever. Some sort of nihilistic, self-destructive Zen philosophy can also be a net positive for the world, especially in the arts. I just personally think it's a choice that leads to a painful, sad and miserable end. The problem is - who really chooses this conciously? As long the author uses flowery language instead of just saying it's alcoholism as a lifestyle, I think something is amiss.
In the immortal words of George Thorogood:
“I drink alone, yeah
With nobody else
Yeah, you know when I drink alone
I prefer to be by myself”It's really great, (especially as someone else said, a companion to creative writing) but your body has finite defences against it, and much of the real damage is silent, so it's particularly dangerous in the stealth damage it causes to mind and body.
Shame as I'd be still drinking today if my body could cope with it. For sure. But my liver has had more than a lifetime filter through it.
Shame as I'd be still drinking today if my body could cope with it. For sure. But my liver has had more than a lifetime filter through it.
Three beers max. No whiskey on a weeknight. Wine is a wildcard. You have to blast off. You have to get outside your own head.
Drinking alone may be bad for your health and lead to alcoholism, but you are less likely to kill yourself in traffic, break some law, or damage your reputation and prospects. So it's much better than drinking with the wrong people.
That said, I think the piece overestimates the benefits of alcohol and underestimates the benefits of solitude.
That said, I think the piece overestimates the benefits of alcohol and underestimates the benefits of solitude.
[deleted]
I don't like Alcohol that much that I only drink it just to hang out with friends cause that's what they're doing and being around drunk people when you are sober is no fun. Being the designated driver is no fun either.
Needless to say, because of COVID I haven't had a drink since 2019.
Needless to say, because of COVID I haven't had a drink since 2019.
i like having a drink and doing mechanical coding or math.
put on a good record, pour some choice tequila, and grind away. :)
put on a good record, pour some choice tequila, and grind away. :)
ha same!
either that or listening to audiobooks/podcasts. i sit down by my balcony, and i drink while enjoying the view, the book and the taste of the whiskey (currently, glenfiddich 15).
either that or listening to audiobooks/podcasts. i sit down by my balcony, and i drink while enjoying the view, the book and the taste of the whiskey (currently, glenfiddich 15).
that's a great way to relax away from screens.
my go-to is tequila ocho's añejo. it's aged in whiskey barrels so perhaps you may enjoy it.
my go-to is tequila ocho's añejo. it's aged in whiskey barrels so perhaps you may enjoy it.
[deleted]
It often happens with HN that I don't find particularly notable that some writings exist... of course there is somebody who would write pieces glorifying drinking alone, and I'm sure there are people who would truly believe in it. It's the fact that it's on HN and has 230+ upvotes that somehow makes this notable.
As I've said, it isn't surprising that it finds its audience, but this gets me thinking: if there was a similar poetic piece talking about "the Zen of taking heroin alone", would people be more inclined to see it as a satire or would they be more inclined to find some deep wisdom in it precisely because it's a bit more unusual and less romanticized than alcohol? Would it gather more upvotes?
And, well, I won't be seriously discussing the topic (it seems a bit silly to me), but since I've made the comparison: yes, I do totally think these are more or less equivalent things.
As I've said, it isn't surprising that it finds its audience, but this gets me thinking: if there was a similar poetic piece talking about "the Zen of taking heroin alone", would people be more inclined to see it as a satire or would they be more inclined to find some deep wisdom in it precisely because it's a bit more unusual and less romanticized than alcohol? Would it gather more upvotes?
And, well, I won't be seriously discussing the topic (it seems a bit silly to me), but since I've made the comparison: yes, I do totally think these are more or less equivalent things.
I love drinking alone. Drinking and driving is dangerous to yourself and others (and I've never done it!) but drinking and walking is also deadly.
I prefer to drink where it's safe and I can't embarrass myself -- in the comfort of my own home
I prefer to drink where it's safe and I can't embarrass myself -- in the comfort of my own home
What about time of day? If drinking only socially is a check on alcoholism, what about drinking only after 17:00, or maybe even only after 12:00? These time boundaries too are social conventions in many places.
Those thresholds protect productivity, they don't protect from alcoholism.
Bill Burr talks about drinking alone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Ks_KFmwbM
I need to drink only to feel comfortable with people so I see no need to poison my body, when I'm alone :D
Still so I enjoy occasionally the taste of a good single malt.
When I drink its like I am being transported from a person watching a black-and-white movie into a person living in a colorful movie. Is that normal?
One of the many side effects of what is known as alcohol.
The article is right in that you should regularly spend time with this inner you.
But you can totally do that sober - and I mean no mind-altering substances whatsoever.
But you can totally do that sober - and I mean no mind-altering substances whatsoever.
This is clearly some type of absurdism. "Modern drunkard magazine". OK.
If you drink, don't let it control you.
If you drink, don't let it control you.
I think the writing is very good, but I don’t think getting drunk alone is all that.
It isn't necessarily but it can be.
Alcohol is a poison.
In vino veritas.
I feel like a saw this on reddit, but cant remember where.
[deleted]
I will never forget the writings of “ground score.”
Many in the West are surprised about the approach of moderation towards alcohol that many Hindu sects advise. It's not forbidden, but also anything harder than wine is seen as out of balance. Here is a lecture about it from Sivaya Subramuniyaswami's book "Living with Siva"
Alcohol is a very misunderstood substance. Its original use in many cultures was limited to the priesthood, to enliven consciousness by restricting the activities of the conscious mind, so that the superconscious knowledge within the individual can flow freely, uninhibited by daily thought and concerns. In Japan, sake, a rice wine, is considered the potion of the poets and is served in Buddhist and Shinto monasteries to enhance the spiritual nature and diminish worldly attachments. The drinking of sake goes along with certain other practices of controlling the mind, based on a well-understood philosophy. In other cultures—Aztec, Mayan, Hindu, Christian and Jewish—wine is considered a holy sacrament. ¶Beer is a lesser potion, a drink for the common man, and does not fall into this category. Both beer and wine are produced from natural ingredients and through natural fermentation processes, whereas hard liquors are distilled. Another important difference is the concentration of alcohol. In beer the alcohol content is from 3 to 8 percent, and in wine from 9 to 18 percent, compared to hard liquors which are from 25 to nearly 100 percent. The latter our scriptures admonish us to not imbibe. ¶Man’s religious traditions provide different answers to the consumption of alcohol. The Muslim faith considers it the mother of all evils, the most basic of human sins. The Jews, Christians and others consider it acceptable in moderation, and, in fact, provide wine as sacraments in their places of worship. In Asian societies, propaganda against alcohol is severe, primarily directed toward hard liquors, meaning those of high alcohol content, which tend to quickly craze the mind, punish the body and let loose the lower emotions. These include distilled home brews, such as arrack, bathtub gin, homemade rum and vodka. ¶In Hinduism there are traditions that are strictly abstemious, and there are traditions that are open to the use of alcohol. Especially the Śaivas and Śāktas are more lenient in this matter and have no objection to the moderate, wise use of alcohol. In North India, for example, it is traditional in certain orders for Śaiva sannyāsins to drink alcohol. This is the tradition that our particular paramparā has adopted and it is the custom that we follow today. If you are in a tradition which has a heritage of complete abstention, then you should follow it. If you are in a tradition which does not look down on drinking wines or beers, then you should feel free to follow that tradition. ¶Hindus of the Jaffna community explain that hard liquor, known as kal in Tamil, are the intoxicants prohibited in the Tirukural and Tirumantiram and which are to be totally abstained from, and that beer and wine, including honey wine, are referred to in the Vedas and āyurveda texts as beneficial for spiritual and religious life under the restraint of mitāhāra. § Sunday LESSON 84 Alcohol in Śaiva Tradition
The time periods allotted for drinking wine and beer should be during a meal (lunch or dinner), or to relax after the day’s dharmic duties are fulfilled. Obviously, one should not drink during the work day, in the office, during pūjā or in the early morning hours. ¶Of course, this hardly need be said, but drinking and driving don’t mix. This extends also to other potentially dangerous activities. One would never drink while on the job, especially using industrial equipment, such as saws and drills, as alcohol slows down the reactions of the physical body and the conscious mind. While enjoying a glass or two of wine, one should be in good company. Drinking should bring up the higher nature, of creativity, good ideas, conversation, philosophy, intuitive solutions to the problems of the world, healthy encounters of all kinds. One should not drink when depressed, troubled or with a group that enters into confrontation, argument, contention and criticism, personal, mental and emotional abuse. Therefore, we emphasize good company, good conversation, creativity, relaxation, toward the advancement of humanity and of spirituality. That is what these two substances, wine and beer, have been created on Earth by Lord Śiva Himself to produce. Of course, imbibing even wine and beer falls under the restraint of mitāhāra. To overindulge would be unacceptable.
Alcohol is a very misunderstood substance. Its original use in many cultures was limited to the priesthood, to enliven consciousness by restricting the activities of the conscious mind, so that the superconscious knowledge within the individual can flow freely, uninhibited by daily thought and concerns. In Japan, sake, a rice wine, is considered the potion of the poets and is served in Buddhist and Shinto monasteries to enhance the spiritual nature and diminish worldly attachments. The drinking of sake goes along with certain other practices of controlling the mind, based on a well-understood philosophy. In other cultures—Aztec, Mayan, Hindu, Christian and Jewish—wine is considered a holy sacrament. ¶Beer is a lesser potion, a drink for the common man, and does not fall into this category. Both beer and wine are produced from natural ingredients and through natural fermentation processes, whereas hard liquors are distilled. Another important difference is the concentration of alcohol. In beer the alcohol content is from 3 to 8 percent, and in wine from 9 to 18 percent, compared to hard liquors which are from 25 to nearly 100 percent. The latter our scriptures admonish us to not imbibe. ¶Man’s religious traditions provide different answers to the consumption of alcohol. The Muslim faith considers it the mother of all evils, the most basic of human sins. The Jews, Christians and others consider it acceptable in moderation, and, in fact, provide wine as sacraments in their places of worship. In Asian societies, propaganda against alcohol is severe, primarily directed toward hard liquors, meaning those of high alcohol content, which tend to quickly craze the mind, punish the body and let loose the lower emotions. These include distilled home brews, such as arrack, bathtub gin, homemade rum and vodka. ¶In Hinduism there are traditions that are strictly abstemious, and there are traditions that are open to the use of alcohol. Especially the Śaivas and Śāktas are more lenient in this matter and have no objection to the moderate, wise use of alcohol. In North India, for example, it is traditional in certain orders for Śaiva sannyāsins to drink alcohol. This is the tradition that our particular paramparā has adopted and it is the custom that we follow today. If you are in a tradition which has a heritage of complete abstention, then you should follow it. If you are in a tradition which does not look down on drinking wines or beers, then you should feel free to follow that tradition. ¶Hindus of the Jaffna community explain that hard liquor, known as kal in Tamil, are the intoxicants prohibited in the Tirukural and Tirumantiram and which are to be totally abstained from, and that beer and wine, including honey wine, are referred to in the Vedas and āyurveda texts as beneficial for spiritual and religious life under the restraint of mitāhāra. § Sunday LESSON 84 Alcohol in Śaiva Tradition
The time periods allotted for drinking wine and beer should be during a meal (lunch or dinner), or to relax after the day’s dharmic duties are fulfilled. Obviously, one should not drink during the work day, in the office, during pūjā or in the early morning hours. ¶Of course, this hardly need be said, but drinking and driving don’t mix. This extends also to other potentially dangerous activities. One would never drink while on the job, especially using industrial equipment, such as saws and drills, as alcohol slows down the reactions of the physical body and the conscious mind. While enjoying a glass or two of wine, one should be in good company. Drinking should bring up the higher nature, of creativity, good ideas, conversation, philosophy, intuitive solutions to the problems of the world, healthy encounters of all kinds. One should not drink when depressed, troubled or with a group that enters into confrontation, argument, contention and criticism, personal, mental and emotional abuse. Therefore, we emphasize good company, good conversation, creativity, relaxation, toward the advancement of humanity and of spirituality. That is what these two substances, wine and beer, have been created on Earth by Lord Śiva Himself to produce. Of course, imbibing even wine and beer falls under the restraint of mitāhāra. To overindulge would be unacceptable.
We are supposed to perform and add value to the world.
Not become mystics and monks.
That's the Zeitgeist slave's mentality.
Doing unhinged introspection with the help of booze or other drugs is frowned upon as you you will realise that are not living for others but yourself on our shared pale blue dot in your personal short glimpse of experienced history and reality.
Doing unhinged introspection with the help of booze or other drugs is frowned upon as you you will realise that are not living for others but yourself on our shared pale blue dot in your personal short glimpse of experienced history and reality.
If you are doing it everyday, I agree, but only living for others is a recipe for burnout.
I'm assuming it is sarcasm? So many in this thread seem to think the purpose of life is for them to be healthy and productive, like Van Gogh or Bukowski.
It's great if that is their life's purpose but fortunately not everyone is the same.
It's great if that is their life's purpose but fortunately not everyone is the same.
I wish I could still do it, but I found myself waiting for the liquor store to open up at 7:00 am to get rid of the shakes. Then when I tried to stop I couldn't. Long story short, after several rehabs, more stints in mental health lockup than I care to remember, and burning through more sponsers in AA that I can count, I finally was able to stop.
"Cunning, baffling and powerful" is how Bill Wilson, founder of AA called alcohol for those of us who are "real alcoholics" or if you prefer
“Everyone knows that dragons don't exist. But while this simplistic formulation may satisfy the layman, it does not suffice for the scientific mind. The School of Higher Neantical Nillity is in fact wholly unconcerned with what does exist. Indeed, the banality of existence has been so amply demonstrated, there is no need for us to discuss it any further here. The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each non-existed in an entirely different way.”
— Stanisław Lem
p.s. There is a tradition of the Drunken Zen Master but it's archaic. We all know better now.