Show HN: Shortwave: Enjoy Your Inbox(shortwave.com)
shortwave.com
Show HN: Shortwave: Enjoy Your Inbox
https://www.shortwave.com/blog/introducing-shortwave/
134 comments
I'll add in a vote for IMAP support. I am anti-Google in almost all regards. Currently I use FastMail as my email provider, and Mail.app as my client. I pay for FastMail, and similarly I would very gladly pay for a good cross-platform mail client. I'd sign up for a yearly subscription, even!
I do recognize that IMAP is not as rich a data source as GMails API, but I'd encourage you to not feel limited by that. I don't mind using hosted email, as long as the revenue source is coming from my wallet, rather than ads.
I even had spec'd out building an OSS self-hosted server that ingested email via IMAP and then stored metadata in its own database - this had the benefit of being as rich as GMail APIs, but me as a user still getting to own my data.
I do recognize that IMAP is not as rich a data source as GMails API, but I'd encourage you to not feel limited by that. I don't mind using hosted email, as long as the revenue source is coming from my wallet, rather than ads.
I even had spec'd out building an OSS self-hosted server that ingested email via IMAP and then stored metadata in its own database - this had the benefit of being as rich as GMail APIs, but me as a user still getting to own my data.
Fastmail created https://jmap.io/ as an open alternative to the GMail API.
jmap is great, but while it's an 'open alternative', afaik currently fastmail is using it, so adding support for jmap would still not make the client available to more services
It took me a few tries to move off of Gmail onto FastMail and I still miss the Gmail iPhone app. I haven't found anything I prefer.
I suspect I'm not the only one and that a good desktop + mobile app would increase the number of people migrating away from Google. I frankly never would've seen myself use a third party client while I was still on Gmail.
I suspect I'm not the only one and that a good desktop + mobile app would increase the number of people migrating away from Google. I frankly never would've seen myself use a third party client while I was still on Gmail.
Exactly!
My only issue with Gmail is, that I want to move away from google. But i just love the Gmail web client & mobile app.
Imap support could finally help me having a nice, non-google email client
My only issue with Gmail is, that I want to move away from google. But i just love the Gmail web client & mobile app.
Imap support could finally help me having a nice, non-google email client
There is mailspring which I have been using for some time - it has a nice modern interface which imho is much better than thunderbird as well as most of the web interfaces of self hosted email. Based on electron though, so ymmv.
https://getmailspring.com/
https://getmailspring.com/
+1 for MailSpring! It is easily the best desktop email application I have ever used!
Good chatter I find here of Mailspring--I use it as well. What do y'all think of SparkMail? It's not been brought up here yet. I'm quite fond of it on my mobile device. This came to mind as I looked over Shortwave
Yep - this is what I've been using. Even Nylas Mail, which came before it
Does mail.app notify you as quickly as the Fastmail app does?
I found mail on both iOS and Mac to be significantly slower. Made me suspect it wasn’t receiving push notifications but rather pulling them entry so often even though my settings were supposed to allow push.
I found mail on both iOS and Mac to be significantly slower. Made me suspect it wasn’t receiving push notifications but rather pulling them entry so often even though my settings were supposed to allow push.
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> I don't mind using hosted email, as long as the revenue source is coming from my wallet, rather than ads.
Serious question: Do premium Gmail accounts (using your own domain) serve ads and mine your data?
Serious question: Do premium Gmail accounts (using your own domain) serve ads and mine your data?
Noted!
For me the killer feature would be to entirely withhold incoming mail from specified email addresses or email domains until weekday working hours. No bolded 'pending' folder, no indication that you're being communicated with by business concerns in your leisure time...I'd pay an extra fee every year just for that one feature.
Agreed! This is definitely on our list and we've got big plans here. Added your +1 to our internal task tracking this feature :)
I use notmuch for my email workflow. It has Python APIs. This is trivial to do with it. The downside is that it's for PCs, not phones. I suppose one could hack a mail server around its tags so you could use it via the phone as well. Never thought about it...
https://notmuchmail.org/
https://notmuchmail.org/
Check out https://www.hey.com/. I've found once I categorized the majority of my regular senders to either go to paper trail or feed, I get so little actual mail. Then when I want to go see my feed for Patagonia's latest marketing mail, I can. No number says how many are there, nothing is bold. Just a click or two and I'm looking at my feed. It can even auto-delete after 30 days if you want.
Despite the fact that it may sound like it, I am not affiliated with Hey, just a happy user.
Despite the fact that it may sound like it, I am not affiliated with Hey, just a happy user.
It seems so crazy to me that no major mail app has figured this out. Why can't I mute my work email after work hours?
You can do that in Outlook.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/manage-your-notif...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/manage-your-notif...
Not for me, but.. A honest question - now, when G suite legacy free edition is closing down, here's a chance to offer a service that's not "piggy-backing" on gmail (or any other provider).
You could "re-create Inbox" by providing email hosting with same/similar features - already lined up on your page.
You could "re-create Inbox" by providing email hosting with same/similar features - already lined up on your page.
Wouldn't that be a huge effort though, as you'd have to essentially implement deliverability and spam all from scratch, all while trying to convince gmail users to switch. I tried Hey and found that it just wasn't going to work for me as they wanted to 'own' my email.
Interesting, can you expand on why Hey 'owned' your email? I guess no access outside their app?
And Hey explicitly doesn't support IMAP
For a long while Hey didn’t support personal domains. Had to use @hey.com
From the article:
> Inbox Zero might be impractical every day, but Inbox Organized happens without breaking a sweat.
My experience is the absolute opposite. Organising mails is a strange game, and the only winning move is not to play.
I get the information out of the emails as soon as I can, and put it into a system that is actually manageable.
GTD had it right from the start. Thank you David Allen.
You want harsh feedback ? I'll never pay for your system, because it would lead to more work for me on the long run, not less. Emails are not todo list: todo list are mostly signal, while emails are mostly noise. Your system organize noise, and automatically. This has no value to me.
But you could build a system that I actually need. An inbox that I would enjoy.
Indeed, I don't need a system that help me organise my various sources of informations and tasks. I have so many of them that would be terrible even if it worked, anyway. Managing 20 organized systems in parallel is hell.
I need systems that make it easy to extract the relevant informations from them, and put the result in one central organized place for action, and another one for archive. A system that filters noise, and get me in control. That's it.
Eventually, my life is just that: being, doing and knowing. I don't need a system for the first. I don't want more than 2 systems for the 2 last.
> Inbox Zero might be impractical every day, but Inbox Organized happens without breaking a sweat.
My experience is the absolute opposite. Organising mails is a strange game, and the only winning move is not to play.
I get the information out of the emails as soon as I can, and put it into a system that is actually manageable.
GTD had it right from the start. Thank you David Allen.
You want harsh feedback ? I'll never pay for your system, because it would lead to more work for me on the long run, not less. Emails are not todo list: todo list are mostly signal, while emails are mostly noise. Your system organize noise, and automatically. This has no value to me.
But you could build a system that I actually need. An inbox that I would enjoy.
Indeed, I don't need a system that help me organise my various sources of informations and tasks. I have so many of them that would be terrible even if it worked, anyway. Managing 20 organized systems in parallel is hell.
I need systems that make it easy to extract the relevant informations from them, and put the result in one central organized place for action, and another one for archive. A system that filters noise, and get me in control. That's it.
Eventually, my life is just that: being, doing and knowing. I don't need a system for the first. I don't want more than 2 systems for the 2 last.
I’ve been keeping my inbox perfectly organized for years, and it is my todo list.
If I want to add an item that didn’t originate from a third-party email, I email myself.
A pin/star means it’s waiting for me to be done. No pin/star means it came in but I haven’t assessed it yet, these tend to be on top.
I get email notices for voicemail so it’s a central funnel.
I extensively use filters/labels to keep automated mail out of my main inbox. I aggressively unsubscribe from anything non-essential.
Everyone has their own preferences but this works great for me.
If I want to add an item that didn’t originate from a third-party email, I email myself.
A pin/star means it’s waiting for me to be done. No pin/star means it came in but I haven’t assessed it yet, these tend to be on top.
I get email notices for voicemail so it’s a central funnel.
I extensively use filters/labels to keep automated mail out of my main inbox. I aggressively unsubscribe from anything non-essential.
Everyone has their own preferences but this works great for me.
I've been using Shortwave in Alpha for about five months and I think you're reacting far too strongly to one line in the blog post. The product does a bunch of things that encourage an Inbox-zero workflow. Emails are organized as a to-do list, and the archive feature is way more prominent than in Gmail, so the most natural workflow is to go down your inbox and check things off. Most of the organization described happens automatically. And the organization helps getting to zero - all of the confluence notifications I get, for instance, are grouped in a single thread and I can scan and archive them quickly.
I get to inbox zero 2-3 times a week, and that wasn't happening before when I was using the Gmail client.
> I need systems that make it easy to extract the relevant informations from them, and put the result in one central organized place for action, and another one for archive. A system that filters noise, and get me in control. That's it.
Yes! In my experience Shortwave is better at this than the client I was using previously. I think it actually addresses some of your issues with email.
I get to inbox zero 2-3 times a week, and that wasn't happening before when I was using the Gmail client.
> I need systems that make it easy to extract the relevant informations from them, and put the result in one central organized place for action, and another one for archive. A system that filters noise, and get me in control. That's it.
Yes! In my experience Shortwave is better at this than the client I was using previously. I think it actually addresses some of your issues with email.
I think GP is correct. This essentially takes the idea of a lean to-do list and constantly barrages it with junk (email). I've used the Get Things Done ideas for years with a plain ol' email account and Microsoft To-Do. Each does its job well. When you try to make one thing do multiple jobs, it's often done poorly in both.
> Organising mails is a strange game, and the only winning move is not to play.
I laughed out loud at this, because you are 100% correct.
I laughed out loud at this, because you are 100% correct.
So true. I found that if an issue is really important, then they will find a way to contact you or it resolves automatically. If I really need to get a context, I'll search for the recipient's name and get instant context on the "issue".
My solution is just to never delete any e-mails. Inbox zero is a complete waste of time for me.
My solution is just to never delete any e-mails. Inbox zero is a complete waste of time for me.
How about a nice game of chess?
Love the War Games reference.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d7f5bc3-4ceb-4d18-87f7-a146f9c...
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5d7f5bc3-4ceb-4d18-87f7-a146f9c...
It’s a modern Sysyphus scenario. I could do it, if I did nothing else, and it would not contribute to my doing any useful work and I’d be at the bottom of the hill tomorrow morning.
I couldn't agree less. I've tried so many task and todo systems and ultimately have come to the conclusion that the most effective todo list I've ever had is my email inbox. I pick one up and then fail to fully embrace it because forming new habits can be hard. Email on the other hand, is impossible to avoid, I have to be in it every day. I've yearned for a better way to manage it and I think this product addresses that.
Unfortunately I won't be a customer though because I hate Google and am a happy Fastmail user.
Unfortunately I won't be a customer though because I hate Google and am a happy Fastmail user.
This is also just a complete misread of the original Inbox Zero talk, and something Merlin Mann complains about every time he tries a new email app that does confetti when you hit "inbox zero". He himself is a deep GTD/David Allen acolyte anyway, but at this point people's misread of what "inbox zero" means is too mainstream and cargo culted.
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I am one of those Google Inbox refugees and this definitely piques my interest. The pricing does not really make sense for personal user ($9/mo for a email client).
Could you elaborate on the free plan 90 day limit? If I snooze an email for 100 days, will I ever see it? Please try to convince me that this limit will not be annoying enough that I should take the risk of linking my Gmail account.
Could you elaborate on the free plan 90 day limit? If I snooze an email for 100 days, will I ever see it? Please try to convince me that this limit will not be annoying enough that I should take the risk of linking my Gmail account.
I am curious why you think that $9/m does not make sense. Is that too much, or too little, and why for either case?
I've spent $0 on email clients the last 20 years I've been using email. At $9/mo, if I used this service, I would have spent $2,160 on an email client.
If I imagine a scenario where someone tells me they can turn GMail into Google Inbox, I would consider a one-time $20 a fair price and could maybe be stretched to $60 with some convincing.
If I imagine a scenario where someone tells me they can turn GMail into Google Inbox, I would consider a one-time $20 a fair price and could maybe be stretched to $60 with some convincing.
Your email will still come back, and you'll see it in your inbox, but you won't see it in search results. And emails from more than 90 days before you signed up won't be imported.
I think the problem is that when you need to search for an email, you really need to know if you got anything or not. And for most of us, we can't wade through the 100s of emails we get a day. So this would really cut me off from my old email, which I think is a showstopper. Otherwise, it looks nice and interesting.
No thank you.. all these apps either want gmail way too many gmail permissions, and/or are hosted.
I know the other solution is (currently) IMAP, but that's just fine.. You could use the messageids to create the extra functionality. Some solutions use IMAP folders, which is a pain in the ass. Also... I'm trying to get rid of gmail lol
Congrats on launching though, but it's not for me.
I know the other solution is (currently) IMAP, but that's just fine.. You could use the messageids to create the extra functionality. Some solutions use IMAP folders, which is a pain in the ass. Also... I'm trying to get rid of gmail lol
Congrats on launching though, but it's not for me.
I've been using it for 5 minutes. It's like Google Inbox was brought back from the dead and I mean that in the best possible way. <3
Since we're pitching feature requests, dark mode, please!
Looking forward to where Shortwave goes!
Since we're pitching feature requests, dark mode, please!
Looking forward to where Shortwave goes!
Glad you enjoy it! Dark mode is coming :D It's high up on our list and we're setup for it.
Love email apps! Congrats.
Honestly, it will be really hard get me to leave Front. I have never used a more productive app for my personal workflow - especially with a team.
This is seriously super awesome though. Some misc. feedback/comments:
- Front has Team Comments (private and between email messages) that are pure gold for collaborating responses and sharing drafts / notes.
- What you all have here with Grouping or "Bundles" is top shelf. Especially the interface and speed of things. I actually tried to get Front to add this in some one off survey two years ago. This allows such a better UX layer of organization than Tags/Folders or Merging emails. Seriously bravo and perfect.
- It's not clear if there's a way to manually create a Bundle. For example, I once asked a client to send me 15 photos, they sent it over 15 emails. I would like to manually "Bundle" and merge those emails basically forever. Edit: Apparently you can drag to do this... superb.
- Team Inboxes are really useful and I am trying to figure out if Bundles kind of replaces this.
- Don't care for Workspaces at all from what I can tell. Maybe my team is too small though. Just don't care for chat that much / use other stuff.
- Beyond Bundles, an almost Trello style organization for flow on "Bundles" could be useful as another layer. Attaching a screenshot of how I do it in Front from start of project to end of project life: https://imgur.com/a/eJ73oDF
- Front is a total mess when it comes to Tags vs Folders and Emojis. What you all have here is really gorgeous. Prop to design team as you can tell this was extremely thoughtful.
- Personally don't care for the gif or emoji stuff since email (to me at least) has always been a formal form of communication.
Honestly, it will be really hard get me to leave Front. I have never used a more productive app for my personal workflow - especially with a team.
This is seriously super awesome though. Some misc. feedback/comments:
- Front has Team Comments (private and between email messages) that are pure gold for collaborating responses and sharing drafts / notes.
- What you all have here with Grouping or "Bundles" is top shelf. Especially the interface and speed of things. I actually tried to get Front to add this in some one off survey two years ago. This allows such a better UX layer of organization than Tags/Folders or Merging emails. Seriously bravo and perfect.
- It's not clear if there's a way to manually create a Bundle. For example, I once asked a client to send me 15 photos, they sent it over 15 emails. I would like to manually "Bundle" and merge those emails basically forever. Edit: Apparently you can drag to do this... superb.
- Team Inboxes are really useful and I am trying to figure out if Bundles kind of replaces this.
- Don't care for Workspaces at all from what I can tell. Maybe my team is too small though. Just don't care for chat that much / use other stuff.
- Beyond Bundles, an almost Trello style organization for flow on "Bundles" could be useful as another layer. Attaching a screenshot of how I do it in Front from start of project to end of project life: https://imgur.com/a/eJ73oDF
- Front is a total mess when it comes to Tags vs Folders and Emojis. What you all have here is really gorgeous. Prop to design team as you can tell this was extremely thoughtful.
- Personally don't care for the gif or emoji stuff since email (to me at least) has always been a formal form of communication.
Thanks for the detailed thoughts! And for the kind words in here :)
Re: team features -- we have Workspaces and Channels that let you solve many of the same use cases as Front. Check out our guide here including a quick video intro: https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/team/
To clarify -- while you can use Channels / Workspaces for general team chat, the main purpose is to help you collaborate on emails, like Front does. Front is more focused on the support use case. We're trying to build something a bit more general purpose, for people like founders, PMs, UX researchers, biz dev, etc to bring visibility to their external emails to their teammates.
You can manually group threads with drag-and-drop to create custom bundles today. You can't yet have those filters apply to future emails, but we'd very much like to do this (and a bunch of other powerful bundle features).
Re: team features -- we have Workspaces and Channels that let you solve many of the same use cases as Front. Check out our guide here including a quick video intro: https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/team/
To clarify -- while you can use Channels / Workspaces for general team chat, the main purpose is to help you collaborate on emails, like Front does. Front is more focused on the support use case. We're trying to build something a bit more general purpose, for people like founders, PMs, UX researchers, biz dev, etc to bring visibility to their external emails to their teammates.
You can manually group threads with drag-and-drop to create custom bundles today. You can't yet have those filters apply to future emails, but we'd very much like to do this (and a bunch of other powerful bundle features).
Love this. I wrote a draft with some of this but thought it wasn't substantive so deleted..
The gist to me is this product has been done before and doesn't seem to solve much or save much time IMHO. Hey.com seems better and does help with some personal email problems (spam, social and marketing emails)
This product seems like it wants to be a business tool without a lot of those core features.
You mention a lot of great inter organizational tools.
Front is awesome I've built plugins for it for our clients currently working on one right now. They have done multi inbox, multi agent/user really well.
But to me the $ would be for business use. If this product can bring in say salesforce data or purchase data as context in an email for example, that's where the money would be IMHO.
Like if you are a web store, someone replies to their receipt email they want a refund/exchange. The UI presents your companies' process to do that in one or two clicks, since it knows the email address & can parse the email for an order #.
Maybe for employee to employee too but seems like not much money there. IDK maybe it can integrate and figure out git integrations as an example of parsing email content and providing context for replying.
P.s. this probably doesn't matter much at all maybe I'm a jerk for writing it but that video voice over recording is awful it sounds like it was done on an employees laptop. Especially for - it sounds like - people with a big exit, connections to capital. Maybe on purpose though! because I also hate the over produced bell xylophone bopping along hippy hoppy modern vector graphic people demo videos too lol
The gist to me is this product has been done before and doesn't seem to solve much or save much time IMHO. Hey.com seems better and does help with some personal email problems (spam, social and marketing emails)
This product seems like it wants to be a business tool without a lot of those core features.
You mention a lot of great inter organizational tools.
Front is awesome I've built plugins for it for our clients currently working on one right now. They have done multi inbox, multi agent/user really well.
But to me the $ would be for business use. If this product can bring in say salesforce data or purchase data as context in an email for example, that's where the money would be IMHO.
Like if you are a web store, someone replies to their receipt email they want a refund/exchange. The UI presents your companies' process to do that in one or two clicks, since it knows the email address & can parse the email for an order #.
Maybe for employee to employee too but seems like not much money there. IDK maybe it can integrate and figure out git integrations as an example of parsing email content and providing context for replying.
P.s. this probably doesn't matter much at all maybe I'm a jerk for writing it but that video voice over recording is awful it sounds like it was done on an employees laptop. Especially for - it sounds like - people with a big exit, connections to capital. Maybe on purpose though! because I also hate the over produced bell xylophone bopping along hippy hoppy modern vector graphic people demo videos too lol
I'll be blunt: Anything that promises me a "more enjoyable" inbox, and then advertises with cat pictures and what-do-we-do-for-lunch threads is missing the mark for me.
I don't want more fluff in my inbox. I especially don't want anything that helps people "email faster". It's not productive, it just makes more noise. E-mail is a medium for half-baked thoughts quickly dashed off to put them on somebody else's plate.
Find a way to reduce e-mail, to help people write more well thought out messages, and I'll be absolutely delighted.
I don't want more fluff in my inbox. I especially don't want anything that helps people "email faster". It's not productive, it just makes more noise. E-mail is a medium for half-baked thoughts quickly dashed off to put them on somebody else's plate.
Find a way to reduce e-mail, to help people write more well thought out messages, and I'll be absolutely delighted.
Keep in mind that the alternative to sending an email is not sending nothing... it's usually to send a text, or a Slack message, or something else that is even less thought through. We try to consolidate all of your communications in one place and give you the tools to write thoughtful things.
Don't be confused by the fun examples. Everyone likes cats (those are my actual cats) so we put them in the post, but you certainly can send more important emails :)
Don't be confused by the fun examples. Everyone likes cats (those are my actual cats) so we put them in the post, but you certainly can send more important emails :)
I didn't say it was an easy problem to solve. Any hypothetical fix to the dumpster fire that is my inbox would need to increase both friction of sending in the first place and the value of using the tool anyways.
And so, no, I'm not confused by the fun examples. I'm fairly clear that they're actively detrimental to me. (I may just not be your audience)
And so, no, I'm not confused by the fun examples. I'm fairly clear that they're actively detrimental to me. (I may just not be your audience)
You sound confused by the examples which are there to show the interface. You can write anything you want in an email message and send as few of them as you want. Anyone who knows they are looking at an email app's landing page will understand that the compose fields are freeform.
This layout and color palette are strongly evocative of Inbox. Without knowing anything about your company, I'd presume you're trying to recreate Inbox.
Is that intentional?
Is that intentional?
Many of us were Inbox users and miss it! We're trying to do more than Inbox did, but we were certainly inspired be it :)
I realize building on gmail gives you an acquisition audience :) and also that hosting your own email infrastructure is hard, but I think it'd be a far more compelling offering if this was standalone. Google have created the opportunity by cutting the free tier for grandfathered plans - lots of people are looking for alternatives to gmail. In all honesty I'll probably pay $6/mo to gmail for now, but I'm unlikely to stick with them long term. Come up with a compelling standalone platform that's better than Hey or Fastmail and I'll be interested.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can start with Gmail and later offer a hosted solution as well.
I must say I loved it. In 10min I cleared my inbox which I was postponing for a few weeks.
I actually love that this is tied to Gmail. The integration means I can move back at any time by just deleting my shortwave account so it's very low risk for me. Also it's top notch, it imported all my aliases and signatures.
I actually love that this is tied to Gmail. The integration means I can move back at any time by just deleting my shortwave account so it's very low risk for me. Also it's top notch, it imported all my aliases and signatures.
Thank you for the kind words!
Just as one data point, this looks great but there is no way I could use a web mail client for security reasons (as a security consultant, we use PGP a lot and need a local email provider). In the comments I see it only works with Google servers to boot. I'm not sure if this will ever be for me as well, but I'd love something like paying a small fee for a version of Thunderbird with one or more of these features patched in.
Shortwave cofounder here. We totally get that. Gmail is just the start for us. We plan to support more providers in the future and even become our own provider long-term. Read more about our company mission on our blog [1].
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/blog/future-of-messaging/
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/blog/future-of-messaging/
I did not find much about privacy and security on the website.
Check out our security doc [1], Privacy Policy [2], and Terms of Service [3] for this information.
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/references/security/
[2] https://www.shortwave.com/policies/privacy-policy/
[3] https://www.shortwave.com/policies/terms-of-service/
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/references/security/
[2] https://www.shortwave.com/policies/privacy-policy/
[3] https://www.shortwave.com/policies/terms-of-service/
Feedback: Email is just fine. It is mature and should just be left alone. It is not something that should be reinvented.
The next thing should not be email at all. It should be something fundamentally different, not another iteration of email.
Seeing some downvote criticism on this comment, let me clarify.
I understand the value in working on an established set of federated protocols. Everyone has an email address and this is a very convenient way to start. But it was invented decades ago and has had many kludges bolted on to it to deal with problems or to very slightly improve the user experience. Who's instead going to be more bold and go for a greenfield project to do asynchronous personal communications?
The next thing should not be email at all. It should be something fundamentally different, not another iteration of email.
Seeing some downvote criticism on this comment, let me clarify.
I understand the value in working on an established set of federated protocols. Everyone has an email address and this is a very convenient way to start. But it was invented decades ago and has had many kludges bolted on to it to deal with problems or to very slightly improve the user experience. Who's instead going to be more bold and go for a greenfield project to do asynchronous personal communications?
I wonder if this is true or not, personally I don't use email enough to invest in a product like this ATM but have been kicking the idea of starting a home based business up for a while now and think something like this would fit quite well.
Saying Email is just fine or whatever is along the lines of the re-inventing the wheel argument yet every once in a while someone does exactly that and the world is a better place for it!
*Edit*
The one thing that makes me a bit nervous is signing up with my google account, I wish there was more information on the security behind doing this, in other words am I handing the keys to the kingdom over to a 3rd party by doing this? Is my google account subject to any vulnerabilities this app may or may not have? These questions make me reluctant to "Sign Up" especially for a trial.
Saying Email is just fine or whatever is along the lines of the re-inventing the wheel argument yet every once in a while someone does exactly that and the world is a better place for it!
*Edit*
The one thing that makes me a bit nervous is signing up with my google account, I wish there was more information on the security behind doing this, in other words am I handing the keys to the kingdom over to a 3rd party by doing this? Is my google account subject to any vulnerabilities this app may or may not have? These questions make me reluctant to "Sign Up" especially for a trial.
I don't get the down-votes on this comment either. (Other then maybe HN is not really the place where folks like to "leave things alone...".)
Email is a fact of life and it is not going anywhere, but in general I would prefer communicating over the Matrix protocol. There is plenty of innovation and development still needed in the messaging space, but continuing to view email as the core technology to build on top of is unnecessarily limiting. (Note that this is not a criticism of the Shortwave team as we all need great email clients! I am just concurring that there are protocols that are fundamentally better than email...)
Email is a fact of life and it is not going anywhere, but in general I would prefer communicating over the Matrix protocol. There is plenty of innovation and development still needed in the messaging space, but continuing to view email as the core technology to build on top of is unnecessarily limiting. (Note that this is not a criticism of the Shortwave team as we all need great email clients! I am just concurring that there are protocols that are fundamentally better than email...)
Here are a few fundamentally different async protocols in development which could challenge SMTP:
DIME - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Mail_Alliance
Math Mesh - https://mathmesh.com
TMTP - https://mnmnotmail.org (my work)
DIME - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Mail_Alliance
Math Mesh - https://mathmesh.com
TMTP - https://mnmnotmail.org (my work)
Email is a couple of related but separable things.
One of those things is transport and all that it entails (delivery, storage, addressing, etc.) Another is a particular kind of messaging.
One can use the transport for other kinds of messaging.
One of those things is transport and all that it entails (delivery, storage, addressing, etc.) Another is a particular kind of messaging.
One can use the transport for other kinds of messaging.
I am trying this out and I like the grouping and 'marking is done' feature. To be honest, you can't do much worse than the default gmail interface and ui, there is so much low hanging fruit there.
What I liked less is the tiny print and tiny UI elements of shortwave in general. I 'solved' this by zooming in a lot, but in general it is hard to see at a glance who e-mails are from, which seems like a pretty important thing.
The focus of the design seems to be about being pretty, not being functional as much as I'd have liked. Again, better than gmail in aesthetics, but the typography could use some attention.
What I liked less is the tiny print and tiny UI elements of shortwave in general. I 'solved' this by zooming in a lot, but in general it is hard to see at a glance who e-mails are from, which seems like a pretty important thing.
The focus of the design seems to be about being pretty, not being functional as much as I'd have liked. Again, better than gmail in aesthetics, but the typography could use some attention.
This looks great, congrats - it’s great to see innovation and creativity in the email space.
I’ve just got through my first week with Superhuman, which I’ve found really productive, particularly the keyboard shortcuts. Your marketing copy seemed to make a few references to that product if I’m not mistaken. Aside from the price ($30/m for Superhuman vs $9/m for Shortwave) would you save me the trouble and outline what you see as key differentiators?
It seems like you’re targeting enterprise / teams which looks great for a work account but less useful for a personal one.
I’ve just got through my first week with Superhuman, which I’ve found really productive, particularly the keyboard shortcuts. Your marketing copy seemed to make a few references to that product if I’m not mistaken. Aside from the price ($30/m for Superhuman vs $9/m for Shortwave) would you save me the trouble and outline what you see as key differentiators?
It seems like you’re targeting enterprise / teams which looks great for a work account but less useful for a personal one.
Thanks! Our keyboard shortcuts are pretty extensive too [1]. Let us know if there's a shortcut missing that you'd like to see!
Beyond price, there are a handful of examples [2], but I'll focus on two big things that set Shortwave apart:
(1) An opinionated triage flow. Bundles group together related senders to make your inbox more scannable, while our triage actions (Pin / Snooze / Done) and drag 'n drop allow you to treat your inbox like the to-do list that it is. [3] We lean into the fact that inbox zero is not a realistic goal for many email users.
(2) Team features. We bring Slack-like channels into your email inbox and give you the notification controls to make that possible. [4] Shortwave eliminates the boundary between your team and the rest of the world. And things like emoji reactions, mentions, and a chat-like interface make it feel unlike any email client you've used before.
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/references/shortcuts/
[2] https://www.shortwave.com/features/
[3] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/101/
[4] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/team/
Beyond price, there are a handful of examples [2], but I'll focus on two big things that set Shortwave apart:
(1) An opinionated triage flow. Bundles group together related senders to make your inbox more scannable, while our triage actions (Pin / Snooze / Done) and drag 'n drop allow you to treat your inbox like the to-do list that it is. [3] We lean into the fact that inbox zero is not a realistic goal for many email users.
(2) Team features. We bring Slack-like channels into your email inbox and give you the notification controls to make that possible. [4] Shortwave eliminates the boundary between your team and the rest of the world. And things like emoji reactions, mentions, and a chat-like interface make it feel unlike any email client you've used before.
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/references/shortcuts/
[2] https://www.shortwave.com/features/
[3] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/101/
[4] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/team/
The email space is always interesting to me. I love seeing new ways of tackling the stream.
About 4 years ago I found a personal email solution in what I thought would be the unlikeliest of places: Emacs.
Emacs + mu4e + mbsync
If you’ve already invested in improving your general text-editing experience (your own Emacs config), you can transfer lots of its benefits onto the email space. For example, use yasnippets for quickly writing frequent/typical responses.
mu4e search is super snappy on my local imap snapshot (works offline), thus enabling quick batch operations.
About 4 years ago I found a personal email solution in what I thought would be the unlikeliest of places: Emacs.
Emacs + mu4e + mbsync
If you’ve already invested in improving your general text-editing experience (your own Emacs config), you can transfer lots of its benefits onto the email space. For example, use yasnippets for quickly writing frequent/typical responses.
mu4e search is super snappy on my local imap snapshot (works offline), thus enabling quick batch operations.
I know that people use their inboxes as to-do lists, but I no of no one who likes it or does it well. Use a plain ol' email account and a decent to-do list. I've been doing it for years and get to inbox zero daily. Feels so good. :-) Putting lipstick on the email/to-do list pig is a step in the wrong direction.
This looks great. Wish you all the best. I moved on to Hey, which took a page from you all in respect to bundles/views, but I did make the Google Inbox sun my cover art. :) https://i.imgur.com/r83pyqV.jpg
> We collect information that alone or in combination with other information in our possession could be used to identify you (“Personal Data”) as follows:
> Email Data: we collect your email address and the contents of any emails and messages you draft or receive in our Service, as well as associated metadata (such as the time sent).
I understand the technical need, but no thanks, I would prefer some local client. Especially given that:
> In certain circumstances we may share the categories of Personal Data described above with the following categories of third parties without further notice to you: [...]
> we may share Personal Data with vendors and service providers, including providers of hosting services, payment processors, email communication software and email newsletter services, customer relationship management and customer support services, and web analytics services.
So you (could) share my (business) emails with more or less everybody in the world?
Hard pass.
> Email Data: we collect your email address and the contents of any emails and messages you draft or receive in our Service, as well as associated metadata (such as the time sent).
I understand the technical need, but no thanks, I would prefer some local client. Especially given that:
> In certain circumstances we may share the categories of Personal Data described above with the following categories of third parties without further notice to you: [...]
> we may share Personal Data with vendors and service providers, including providers of hosting services, payment processors, email communication software and email newsletter services, customer relationship management and customer support services, and web analytics services.
So you (could) share my (business) emails with more or less everybody in the world?
Hard pass.
[Founder & CEO here] We will never sell your data, track you, or advertise to you. We only share this information as necessary to provide the service (for example, by storing it on Google Cloud Platform).
"We only share this information as necessary to provide the service" That statement would be reassuring... but for the fact it fails to accord with your privacy policy, clause 1.
You won't - but you cannot meaningfully guarantee you will never sell the company?
Is it possible to store the data, extracted from my data, your service needs in my Google Cloud somewhere or will it expose your secret sauce?
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By looking at the screenshot, I can see that it's more complex than Hey, which is the service I'm currently using and am very happy with. I hope this data point helps, somehow. Good luck!
Always great to see people innovating on email clients, everyone is different and would have they own best way to manage their email for themselves. So any new option is always good.
Out of interest, you have started with Gmail which is understandable but do you have planes to support order email services or even just plain IMAP?
I know Gmail is complicated as it doesn't really do IMAP properly and so it better to use their api, so you have to chose one of the other to start. But I hope you have plans to support IMAP.
Out of interest, you have started with Gmail which is understandable but do you have planes to support order email services or even just plain IMAP?
I know Gmail is complicated as it doesn't really do IMAP properly and so it better to use their api, so you have to chose one of the other to start. But I hope you have plans to support IMAP.
We would very much like to support other services in the future.
Rather than using IMAP, we integrate with Gmail's APIs from our servers. This allows us to have a new client-server protocol that supports a bunch of new stuff -- like faster real-time updates, better latency compensation and offline handling, bundled inboxes, more interesting triage flows, emoji reactions, presence, etc.
The downside of this is obviously that we have to do a customer integration with Gmail to do this. But fortunately it's not too complex, and we intend to support other services in the future. And maybe, in the _long term_, improve the protocols so this integration can be more standard.
Rather than using IMAP, we integrate with Gmail's APIs from our servers. This allows us to have a new client-server protocol that supports a bunch of new stuff -- like faster real-time updates, better latency compensation and offline handling, bundled inboxes, more interesting triage flows, emoji reactions, presence, etc.
The downside of this is obviously that we have to do a customer integration with Gmail to do this. But fortunately it's not too complex, and we intend to support other services in the future. And maybe, in the _long term_, improve the protocols so this integration can be more standard.
It’s not a business critique at all; it’s just always a little sad to see awesome tools built that only work for the dominant player in the space. Just another few inches in the moat which makes it harder for an new startup to compete.
It may make total sense and be the most rational choice for your business, it’s just unfortunate various systems have made this the case
It may make total sense and be the most rational choice for your business, it’s just unfortunate various systems have made this the case
People have more than 1 unread email? In the regular inbox? really?
My email goes through K9 on Android first (5.6, the next version broke this workflow and despised about half of its users. Look for k9 overview screen to appreciate the drama and look at the distribution of the stars of the app.) I use K9 to look at the titles of the messages I get on my POP3 accounts. I don't remove the messages from the servers. I disable notifications and polling. I have to manually check my accounts. This is not to be distracted.
Really urgent matters ring my phone. Customers reach me on slack (only on desktop.) IMs are for real time communication. Email is for low priority communication. I check it a few times per day, less than five. I read immediately the important messages and I reply from there, automatically BCC to me. I delete the cruft (the notifications I don't have to archive, invites to events I won't go to, etc.) For many messages the title is the only important signal.
Later on, not every day, I download mail on my laptop with Thunderbird. This deletes email from the POP3 servers so it makes it unavailable to the phone. Messages are organized into a few hundred of folders, either by sender or project. Filters do it (create it once, use forever.)
This means that I already read the email, at least its title, and I rarely have to read it again on the computer. I got thousands of unread messages there and I have read only the title of many of them, only on the phone. I've got messages dating back to 1994.
Of course I'm an outlier (but consider how many people want the old K9 back) and of course predicting how people use stuff is very hard. It would be nice to have an IMAP server over my Thunderbird folder to look at every message from my phone. It's been 10 years since I told me that maybe I should self host one and I never did it, so it's probably not very important though.
Really urgent matters ring my phone. Customers reach me on slack (only on desktop.) IMs are for real time communication. Email is for low priority communication. I check it a few times per day, less than five. I read immediately the important messages and I reply from there, automatically BCC to me. I delete the cruft (the notifications I don't have to archive, invites to events I won't go to, etc.) For many messages the title is the only important signal.
Later on, not every day, I download mail on my laptop with Thunderbird. This deletes email from the POP3 servers so it makes it unavailable to the phone. Messages are organized into a few hundred of folders, either by sender or project. Filters do it (create it once, use forever.)
This means that I already read the email, at least its title, and I rarely have to read it again on the computer. I got thousands of unread messages there and I have read only the title of many of them, only on the phone. I've got messages dating back to 1994.
Of course I'm an outlier (but consider how many people want the old K9 back) and of course predicting how people use stuff is very hard. It would be nice to have an IMAP server over my Thunderbird folder to look at every message from my phone. It's been 10 years since I told me that maybe I should self host one and I never did it, so it's probably not very important though.
My inboxes are all in the 100,000s of messages.
I have a few broad search filters (example, at work: internal email vs outside email.) I star or bookmark things I need to come back to (and then un-star them afterwards.) I use text search to find everything else.
I treat it like a giant single chat history.
I have never not been able to find an email when I need to, and I never miss a message.
Life is too short to waste time trying to maintain "inbox zero."
I have a few broad search filters (example, at work: internal email vs outside email.) I star or bookmark things I need to come back to (and then un-star them afterwards.) I use text search to find everything else.
I treat it like a giant single chat history.
I have never not been able to find an email when I need to, and I never miss a message.
Life is too short to waste time trying to maintain "inbox zero."
I dearly hope you take some ideas from Hey, especially multiple inboxes with individualized behavior. I recently set my Gmail up to work as closely to this as can be achieved and it has completely changed my email life after years of trying different systems and clients.
That said, excited to see if the system I set up for myself will port cleanly Shortwave. The bundling feature is clutch and it's the one thing I really miss.
Great job, thank you for building this for us, and good luck!
That said, excited to see if the system I set up for myself will port cleanly Shortwave. The bundling feature is clutch and it's the one thing I really miss.
Great job, thank you for building this for us, and good luck!
Just to expand on this, the key feature is thus:
- Read emails in the inbox are automatically archived. If you want to see them later, you must set them aside, star, snooze, whatever
- Mail that's not from trusted contacts is automatically marked as read and has its own inbox, so you can just glance for anything important, but don't need to manage it at all
- Read emails in the inbox are automatically archived. If you want to see them later, you must set them aside, star, snooze, whatever
- Mail that's not from trusted contacts is automatically marked as read and has its own inbox, so you can just glance for anything important, but don't need to manage it at all
I note the tagline says "Enjoy your inbox".
This is liable to create the impression the service is platform-neutral, but it is not. It relies solely on the Gmail API? I don't use Gmail, so your product doesn't work for me.
A simple way to fix this is to adjust the title to the more accurate, "Enjoy your Gmail inbox", thereby enabling us to determine whether it is usable or not.
In the long run, I hope you consider platform-neutral JMAP support once it has matured.
This is liable to create the impression the service is platform-neutral, but it is not. It relies solely on the Gmail API? I don't use Gmail, so your product doesn't work for me.
A simple way to fix this is to adjust the title to the more accurate, "Enjoy your Gmail inbox", thereby enabling us to determine whether it is usable or not.
In the long run, I hope you consider platform-neutral JMAP support once it has matured.
To be fair that's literally the 2nd line on the landing page: "Email smarter & faster with a reinvented experience for your Gmail", with the first line having an underlined "Enjoy" - I believe to double convince the future users.
On the other hand it definitely looks like another snake oil email client in a long list of snake oil email clients. My another guess is (and I maybe wrong) - it is entirely electron or web based - the apps I mean.
On the other hand it definitely looks like another snake oil email client in a long list of snake oil email clients. My another guess is (and I maybe wrong) - it is entirely electron or web based - the apps I mean.
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The first paragraph is true, but I had to click on the link to discover that.
I guess I'm just a bit peeved at the implicit presumption everyone uses Gmail, and therefore, that Gmail APIs cover the field, and therefore that I can enjoy my inbox.
I guess I'm just a bit peeved at the implicit presumption everyone uses Gmail, and therefore, that Gmail APIs cover the field, and therefore that I can enjoy my inbox.
If more platforms supported JMAP we would totally start with that (it's similar-ish to Gmail's API for what we need). Eventually we will support IMAP/SMTP integrations (maybe by wrapping IMAP in a JMAP proxy).
It seems like an absolutely critical flaw to build a business entirely dependent on another company's proprietary service, which also is technically a competitor.
Shortwaver here! There are a number of other companies that have started out exclusively on Gmail like us. It's also a risk to stand up a new SMTP service while trying to stay off SMTP blacklists, greylists, and keeping mail out of spam filters.
Building on Gmail has allowed us to prove out our product market fit more quickly without spending as much time on getting these deliverability issues solved. However, in the future we'd love to have our own SMTP service as an option in addition to Gmail.
The product looks great. One question: does it sync everything to shortwave servers? If I download the desktop app, will everything still be synced to the servers? I'd be fine with most of my email being copied by a service like this but thinking of emails like OTPs, account resets, bank/credit card and social security authorizations makes me a bit too uncomfortable. I wish this had a denylist of some sort to never some sync mail.
Good question. Yes, we do sync your mail to our servers. We need to do this to provide many of the features we have.
We are taking security very seriously and are doing everything we can to dot our i's and cross our t's. Our engineering team is ex-Google / ex-Firebase engineers with lots of experience building high security, high reliability data systems at Google.
We are taking security very seriously and are doing everything we can to dot our i's and cross our t's. Our engineering team is ex-Google / ex-Firebase engineers with lots of experience building high security, high reliability data systems at Google.
Just tried it and have a bug report: back button is completely broken. I opened a category/group then openened an email, clicked mouse side button (which is bound to back button of browser) and it took me to a completely random email thread. No matter how many times I try it, it takes me back to the same thread. I never opened the thread before I was taken there by the back button.
Can I request a feature? I'd love Shortwave to ignore a specific folder or label in Gmail. I can then label stuff I deem extra sensitive and it would never leave Gmail. This would give a lot of people peace of mind when trying Shortwave.
I would be really interested in this if it had a focus mode, that hides e-mails and delivers them to me in batches. I loved Tempo[1], but unfortunately they ran out of money, which shows how tough this space is.
[1]: https://www.yourtempo.co
[1]: https://www.yourtempo.co
Shortwaver here! We've had a few former tempo users switch over to Shortwave and are enjoying the product. We have a few features with bundles that we really want to build that would allow you to replicate a Tempo like workflow of triaging your email in batches.
[deleted]
I think the challenge I have with all of these email apps is always consistent. Gmail is a foundation, I use tools on top of it. Especially once I hop to mobile, do you have a clear strategy for integration with common extensions like HubSpot?
I get the need to have both a free, and a paid version, but email with only 90 days of history is not a viable free tier. This isn't slack, this is email.
I'd love to try it, but it can't work even in the simplest way for me to test.
I'd love to try it, but it can't work even in the simplest way for me to test.
Always eager to try new mail clients. when is multi-account support landing?
Shortwaver here - we'd love you have you give Shortwave a try! We already support multi-account for our iOS app. We would love to bring this to the web/PWA soon!
Congratulations on the release!!!
Do you support/plan to support personal certificates or PGP somehow? It will be fantastic to bring those functionalities to the mainstream.
Do you support/plan to support personal certificates or PGP somehow? It will be fantastic to bring those functionalities to the mainstream.
We'd love to better support PGP and multipart/encrypted emails - we have been focusing on nailing our UX and our client experience. But we have grand plans[1] to improve the underlying protocol, and part of that is making e2e encryption the default experience.
[1]: https://www.shortwave.com/blog/future-of-messaging/
[1]: https://www.shortwave.com/blog/future-of-messaging/
We need this but not for Google. What's the point of a nice inbox when you are getting spied on and sold to advertisers?
One has nothing to do with the other. I would like a nice inbox for my Gmail, despite not caring about being spied on and my info being sold. I'm not alone, judging by the amount of folks that wax nostalgic about Google's Inbox.
Why do we need/want inbox zero?
Isn’t that a false promise of modern life? Inbox zero isn’t possible or even necessary
Isn’t that a false promise of modern life? Inbox zero isn’t possible or even necessary
"Inbox Zero" is 100% not the goal with Shortwave and you won't see it in our marketing. Not to be too cheeky, but "Inbox Organized" is the goal. We want to help you treat your inbox like the to-do list that it is, not necessarily smash every email that enters your inbox. Read more about our workflow in our docs. [1]
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/101/
[1] https://www.shortwave.com/docs/guides/101/
I've found it's both achievable and a worthwhile way to operate if and only if nearly all of your emails come from humans, and not very many of them.
As soon as transactional emails and marketing mailer scripts start to take over, or long-running CC noise, it's hopeless and fighting it's not worth the time. Forget about it and rely on search. Maybe auto-categorize some senders you want to break through the noise, but anything past that isn't a good use of time (though it may be satisfying, which is enough justification if you're into that kind of thing)
Failing that, skimming the inbox for important messages you missed then hitting archive-all at the end of the day can do it, but it's sort-of cheating and I'm not sure how valuable it is. Periodically auto-archiving anything older than X hours can be nice, but won't (often) get you to Inbox Zero.
As soon as transactional emails and marketing mailer scripts start to take over, or long-running CC noise, it's hopeless and fighting it's not worth the time. Forget about it and rely on search. Maybe auto-categorize some senders you want to break through the noise, but anything past that isn't a good use of time (though it may be satisfying, which is enough justification if you're into that kind of thing)
Failing that, skimming the inbox for important messages you missed then hitting archive-all at the end of the day can do it, but it's sort-of cheating and I'm not sure how valuable it is. Periodically auto-archiving anything older than X hours can be nice, but won't (often) get you to Inbox Zero.
> As soon as transactional emails and marketing mailer scripts start to take over, or long-running CC noise, it's hopeless and fighting it's not worth the time. Forget about it and rely on search.
The alternative, which works very well for me, is to have a whitelist and only allow that to hit your inbox. Then allow humans to get on to your whitelist:
http://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-proble...
It's trivial to filter out the noise, because by default it filters everything out. You do a tiny amount of work to whitelist the humans.
Inbox Zero definitely works with that setup.
The alternative, which works very well for me, is to have a whitelist and only allow that to hit your inbox. Then allow humans to get on to your whitelist:
http://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-proble...
It's trivial to filter out the noise, because by default it filters everything out. You do a tiny amount of work to whitelist the humans.
Inbox Zero definitely works with that setup.
I fail to hit zero fewer than three times a month. It's absolutely possible.
Yeah I’ve given up on inbox zero. Inbox is my filing cabinet and that just works.
Neat. However, is Gmail backing this? Otherwise, Gmail could mess it up badly any time, right?
Is this a young person thing where they have never seen "create rule" in outlook?
I would love to use it if i was for more then just gmail.
Though fantastic idea all around!
Though fantastic idea all around!
This is gmail only, yes? Should that not be reflected in the title?
[deleted]
Hmmm can't seem to finish the login flow
You can reach out to [email protected] with more details about the error you're getting. We'll try to figure out what's going on
> When we launched Firebase here 10 years ago,
Show HN: Firebase, a scalable real-time backend - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3832877 - April 2012 (137 comments)
(I'm marking this off topic so it will go to the bottom of the page and hopefully not distract from the new thing.)
Show HN: Firebase, a scalable real-time backend - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3832877 - April 2012 (137 comments)
(I'm marking this off topic so it will go to the bottom of the page and hopefully not distract from the new thing.)
[deleted]
When we launched Firebase here 10 years ago, HN was tough but fair, and I expect no less this time around! I hope you’ll check out what we’ve built and share your feedback. I’ll be around here all day and am happy to answer any questions. Let us know what you think!