Tell HN: I'm an Imposter
13 comments
Hey there. I haven't read any of your previous HN posts, so, fresh opinion here.
Firstly, don't be embarrassed. It's good that you want to engage and be stimulated. But by the same token, don't expect too much in terms of personal love & understanding here. I've been a coder for almost 30 years and I still don't understand half of the things people post here, and it's tough to find people of similar minds.
What I think you're looking for is being in a social setting that stimulates you. And it sucks to say that it's so damn hard now to do that. When I was a kid in the 90s, I spent all night in art/coffeehouses talking with people from cops to drug dealers, writers and artists to Costco employees. That culture is gone. It's been replaced by a cheap knockoff version online, but you never see or know the people, so you don't really get the same experience of closing out a place at 4am with friends you know you'll see again tomorrow or the next night.
My GF grew up in Texas and thinks of herself as someone who escaped being a "normie". Her whole family is super religious. She has "normie" friends who plan an annual trip to Disney World, stuff like that. She gets most of her intellectual stimulation from learning how to code and talking to me and a few of her not-normal friends, weirdos like me who she picked up over time. And what I do alone and we do together is, we just plant ourselves outside a bar and start chatting away. Or reading a book. You'd be amazed at the people I meet. Now... I live in Portland, OR. When we go out to bars near her place in the deep countryside, the chance of a really interesting conversation gets a lot slimmer, and we spend a lot more time talking about cars and kids than like, philosophy or international relations (or antifascism) the way we can in Portland. So one big thing I've learned is that where you are really matters. The right city or the right group of friends/neighbors can help you blossom. The wrong place can just keep you down, make you hide away or give up trying. No matter how friendly you are. I'm also very friendly, and easily embarrassed when I'm too friendly. I'm not white - or not perceived as white, anyway, so it's hard to tell sometimes what people are thinking. You know genuine people when you see 'em.
Don't fetishize HN. It's a high level dork conversation, that's all. Honestly, it's dangerous to think too much of it, because a lot of people here aren't worth the salt. Wherever you live, there are definitely cool dorks nearby, you just need to meet them.
I think if you sit outside Starbucks or a bar with a book and eavesdrop on other people's conversations and just - at an opportune time if you hear something interesting, don't be afraid to say "hey, I heard what you were talking about, mind if I ask something?" Well. This takes practice but it's how I met most of the best people in my life. Not online.
[edit] Just reading your reply to someone else that you work in a university bookstore makes me realize you probably come into contact with more interesting people than I do every day. I have literally no one in my real life who has a clue what my job involves, except for one or two other people who take laptops to the local bars who trade war stories with me once in awhile. The reason I'm on HN is literally because as a freelancer it's the only place I get to talk shop. Everyone needs to talk shop sometimes.
Firstly, don't be embarrassed. It's good that you want to engage and be stimulated. But by the same token, don't expect too much in terms of personal love & understanding here. I've been a coder for almost 30 years and I still don't understand half of the things people post here, and it's tough to find people of similar minds.
What I think you're looking for is being in a social setting that stimulates you. And it sucks to say that it's so damn hard now to do that. When I was a kid in the 90s, I spent all night in art/coffeehouses talking with people from cops to drug dealers, writers and artists to Costco employees. That culture is gone. It's been replaced by a cheap knockoff version online, but you never see or know the people, so you don't really get the same experience of closing out a place at 4am with friends you know you'll see again tomorrow or the next night.
My GF grew up in Texas and thinks of herself as someone who escaped being a "normie". Her whole family is super religious. She has "normie" friends who plan an annual trip to Disney World, stuff like that. She gets most of her intellectual stimulation from learning how to code and talking to me and a few of her not-normal friends, weirdos like me who she picked up over time. And what I do alone and we do together is, we just plant ourselves outside a bar and start chatting away. Or reading a book. You'd be amazed at the people I meet. Now... I live in Portland, OR. When we go out to bars near her place in the deep countryside, the chance of a really interesting conversation gets a lot slimmer, and we spend a lot more time talking about cars and kids than like, philosophy or international relations (or antifascism) the way we can in Portland. So one big thing I've learned is that where you are really matters. The right city or the right group of friends/neighbors can help you blossom. The wrong place can just keep you down, make you hide away or give up trying. No matter how friendly you are. I'm also very friendly, and easily embarrassed when I'm too friendly. I'm not white - or not perceived as white, anyway, so it's hard to tell sometimes what people are thinking. You know genuine people when you see 'em.
Don't fetishize HN. It's a high level dork conversation, that's all. Honestly, it's dangerous to think too much of it, because a lot of people here aren't worth the salt. Wherever you live, there are definitely cool dorks nearby, you just need to meet them.
I think if you sit outside Starbucks or a bar with a book and eavesdrop on other people's conversations and just - at an opportune time if you hear something interesting, don't be afraid to say "hey, I heard what you were talking about, mind if I ask something?" Well. This takes practice but it's how I met most of the best people in my life. Not online.
[edit] Just reading your reply to someone else that you work in a university bookstore makes me realize you probably come into contact with more interesting people than I do every day. I have literally no one in my real life who has a clue what my job involves, except for one or two other people who take laptops to the local bars who trade war stories with me once in awhile. The reason I'm on HN is literally because as a freelancer it's the only place I get to talk shop. Everyone needs to talk shop sometimes.
Thank you for your thoughtful response! Lots of insights here!
Re your edit: Yeah based on all the replies so far I think I must've given the wrong impression in my original post. Too much emotion, makes it hard to interpret reality.
I think this maybe gets to the core of the problem, that it's not really to do with the social setting per se, but my attachment with it, and the expectations that go along with it.
Just like here on HN, I easily get carried away with idealizing the place and then become overbearing, too eager to impress. Same online or offline. Except maybe offline, what I've realized, is that people easily get overwhelmed by my eagerness, so they kinda just step back from it all, not wanting to get involved. Whereas online, I can't really overwhelm anyone cuz it's all thrown into the air, and anyone who cares will respond, and those who don't just move on. That's my theory anyway.
But in general, I think the context around us really does matter a lot, like you mentioned. Not just the types of people we meet, but the expectations we/I set up with it.
Another thought that I'm starting to explore, is that perhaps I'm the one that isn't smart enough or well-read enough to carry a conversation with anyone about anything. Whereas online/HN I can pick the topics I know about and go contribute there.
Lots to think about. Me + social life = confusion to the max. And I've been thinking about it and trying things out a lot, and still can't figure it out.
Re your edit: Yeah based on all the replies so far I think I must've given the wrong impression in my original post. Too much emotion, makes it hard to interpret reality.
I think this maybe gets to the core of the problem, that it's not really to do with the social setting per se, but my attachment with it, and the expectations that go along with it.
Just like here on HN, I easily get carried away with idealizing the place and then become overbearing, too eager to impress. Same online or offline. Except maybe offline, what I've realized, is that people easily get overwhelmed by my eagerness, so they kinda just step back from it all, not wanting to get involved. Whereas online, I can't really overwhelm anyone cuz it's all thrown into the air, and anyone who cares will respond, and those who don't just move on. That's my theory anyway.
But in general, I think the context around us really does matter a lot, like you mentioned. Not just the types of people we meet, but the expectations we/I set up with it.
Another thought that I'm starting to explore, is that perhaps I'm the one that isn't smart enough or well-read enough to carry a conversation with anyone about anything. Whereas online/HN I can pick the topics I know about and go contribute there.
Lots to think about. Me + social life = confusion to the max. And I've been thinking about it and trying things out a lot, and still can't figure it out.
I'm also a person who sometimes has to check myself, realizing I have a tendency to start talking too much, or take over a conversation. It's just that I have a lot to say. I listen, too; but sometimes I can be a bad reader of when I've said too much. I never learned that "manly virtue" of being stoic and silent.
That being said, it's possible to punish yourself way too much for what you did or didn't say, dissecting every conversation afterwards. I was a very shy kid. I had a lot of thoughts, but I didn't speak up. I would describe myself as someone on the spectrum who figured out how to communicate using a different methodology than most people; it didn't come naturally. When suddenly around 15 or 16 I began to get confidence, it loosened up my tongue, maybe way too much. At certain points, especially in my 20s, I remember thinking that I was going too far (trying to impress, or to make a point) and sounding like an idiot. But I was extremely hard on myself about this, like I think you are being. I would have a great conversation with someone and then wake up the next day feeling suicidal because I was sure they thought I was stupid or annoying. Even when this bore no relationship to reality. Even with people who liked me and wanted to hang out.
One thing that helped me was a year I spent in therapy - specifically, existential therapy. It helped me see that I'm just what I am, we're all just what we are. No one's perfect, and no one spends anywhere near as much time analyzing my social faux pas as I do. That at most, people might think I'm eccentric or a curiosity. And being so hard on myself took away the pleasure of relating to other people, put too much focus on me, and made me too defensive. Why was I always worried about being judged - why did I assume that everyone else was judging me and yet I always accepted them for who they were? So much comes out of your own sense of self-doubt. It colors your interactions in ways you hardly realize, and it can lead to a dark place when you're trapped in your own head that way.
That being said, it's possible to punish yourself way too much for what you did or didn't say, dissecting every conversation afterwards. I was a very shy kid. I had a lot of thoughts, but I didn't speak up. I would describe myself as someone on the spectrum who figured out how to communicate using a different methodology than most people; it didn't come naturally. When suddenly around 15 or 16 I began to get confidence, it loosened up my tongue, maybe way too much. At certain points, especially in my 20s, I remember thinking that I was going too far (trying to impress, or to make a point) and sounding like an idiot. But I was extremely hard on myself about this, like I think you are being. I would have a great conversation with someone and then wake up the next day feeling suicidal because I was sure they thought I was stupid or annoying. Even when this bore no relationship to reality. Even with people who liked me and wanted to hang out.
One thing that helped me was a year I spent in therapy - specifically, existential therapy. It helped me see that I'm just what I am, we're all just what we are. No one's perfect, and no one spends anywhere near as much time analyzing my social faux pas as I do. That at most, people might think I'm eccentric or a curiosity. And being so hard on myself took away the pleasure of relating to other people, put too much focus on me, and made me too defensive. Why was I always worried about being judged - why did I assume that everyone else was judging me and yet I always accepted them for who they were? So much comes out of your own sense of self-doubt. It colors your interactions in ways you hardly realize, and it can lead to a dark place when you're trapped in your own head that way.
Thank you so so much for all this. Thank you for sharing your story. I have much to learn. Really glad we were able to have this conversation. :)
Maybe you could get a job with people closer to you in intellectual curiosity? A dev job would be obvious good fit if you can get it, but if you don't, in many roles you will also work with people more intellectually-oriented than a warehouse crew.
Yeah I wanted to be a dev many years ago, that's how I got to know PG/YC/HN. But life took a turn, and I don't regret it actually, I like where things are heading. :)
To be honest, many people I work with are pretty nerdy compared to people with "real/corporate jobs" (it's a university bookstore afterall), but I also feel that we all ended up here because we were the disenfranchised type of nerdy people, so we don't open up our nerdy sides very much. Which means we still end up doing smalltalk etc. It's not that bad, just boring.
EDIT: Come to think of it, the nerdy people at work are mostly the bookworm-type who are more into novels etc. I think I'm literally the only person in the entire place that likes textbooks and academic titles haha. HMMMM
To be honest, many people I work with are pretty nerdy compared to people with "real/corporate jobs" (it's a university bookstore afterall), but I also feel that we all ended up here because we were the disenfranchised type of nerdy people, so we don't open up our nerdy sides very much. Which means we still end up doing smalltalk etc. It's not that bad, just boring.
EDIT: Come to think of it, the nerdy people at work are mostly the bookworm-type who are more into novels etc. I think I'm literally the only person in the entire place that likes textbooks and academic titles haha. HMMMM
Interesting that there's still smalltalk in such a job. I always imagined that fitting into a specific image of an ideal person/worker is a burden that you have to carry in white-collar corporate jobs, while in low-end menial jobs you can just be your own grumpy self if you want to be, as nobody gives a damn as long as you get the job done. It was even portrayed in one episode of Black Mirror, where a truck driver was the only person free to express herself (because there was nothing she could lose, her job was not desirable).
I'm guessing it's all very context dependent. And Black Mirror was probably one end of the spectrum.
I think I'd much rather smalltalk with my colleagues than with people in the corporate world, or back in the suburds where I grew up.
And I think with my workplace, either because most of them are here for the job stability, or maybe because I live in Canada, a lot of our conversations aren't really conversations at all, but people talking to the air in a positive way so to make a harmonious environment. So often I start saying something and then realize the other person didn't hear me, and yet continue as if we totally get each other. That's what I meant by smalltalk.
I think I'd much rather smalltalk with my colleagues than with people in the corporate world, or back in the suburds where I grew up.
And I think with my workplace, either because most of them are here for the job stability, or maybe because I live in Canada, a lot of our conversations aren't really conversations at all, but people talking to the air in a positive way so to make a harmonious environment. So often I start saying something and then realize the other person didn't hear me, and yet continue as if we totally get each other. That's what I meant by smalltalk.
It looks like you have some deep traumas or unsolved psychological issues that you should address first.
It’s very easy and tempting to blame “stupid people around” for your loneliness (I’ve been there).
If you’re really curious as you say, then there can’t be boring environment for you.
It’s very easy and tempting to blame “stupid people around” for your loneliness (I’ve been there).
If you’re really curious as you say, then there can’t be boring environment for you.
I've definitely had my share of childhood trauma. I've worked my ass off the past 10+ years growing through it. I'm at a much better place now than I used to be. But probably still some stubborn ones leftover.
I don't think my issue is with "stupid" people. I never think that of people. I think I exaggerated in my post regarding that point.
I think what's going on is more related to my over-attachment with these situations, and my anxiety and subsequent reactions to it.
Interestingly, I never cared to have friends or a social life until recently, after coming out of a depressive episode. It's like I've been living in a hole for 30 years, and now I'm out trying to make friends like a overly eager 6 year old, plus anxiety.
I don't think my issue is with "stupid" people. I never think that of people. I think I exaggerated in my post regarding that point.
I think what's going on is more related to my over-attachment with these situations, and my anxiety and subsequent reactions to it.
Interestingly, I never cared to have friends or a social life until recently, after coming out of a depressive episode. It's like I've been living in a hole for 30 years, and now I'm out trying to make friends like a overly eager 6 year old, plus anxiety.
Weirdly enough you’re not alone at all. I hardly know a few people who are honestly satisfied with their social life, no matter the circumstances or external image they trying to project.
Perhaps more relevant (and more problematic), is that I can't actually keep up with most of the discussions on here. 99% of the links on HN, I have no idea what it's talking about. And of the comments posted, I can maybe make sense of only a fraction, and I certainly don't understand enough to participate in any meaningful way.
Heck, I don't even browse the web anymore. Which means I have no links to submit, either.
So what am I left with? Asking a crapload of generic Ask-HNs. One to two a day for the past month, in fact.
So, why am I here?
Because in real life, I'm surrounded by people who are boring and uncritical. And even if the individuals themselves are not, the social norm certainly is (in my world, at least).
It's easy to go along to get along with everyone: I can be one of the friendliest people! While having no friends.
I'm admittedly not a "naturally smart/intelligent" person (trust me on this one), but I am a very curious soul, and I love to learn, love to think.
But the more I embrace my intellectual self, the more disconnected I feel from the rest of the world. The more my mind grows, the more it dies from loneliness.
So why am I here, posting all these Ask HNs? Obviously, to surround myself with like-minds (or more accurately, smarter minds), to fill the void that was becoming increasingly unbearable.
And I'm so glad I'm here. I've never felt this happy, this alive. To be seen, to be taken seriously. But in the back of my mind, I know I'm overly excited, maybe even obsessed. All the while realizing that I'm most likely making a fool out of myself, my naive, childish, attention-seeking self.
Do I belong here? Am I welcomed here? Maybe I can ask that on Ask HN? And what, die of embarrassment? Or, more likely, I'll just get pity points and sympathy reassurance. But how will I know what you all really think?
...
I think it's time for a break. Most likely won't be posting any more Ask HNs for a while. But I'll probably still poke around and lurk a bit. And I'm definitely still open to emails and hanging out on Discord. Feel free to reach out as usual.
Thank you all so so much for having me. Thank you for all your advice and wisdom. Thank you for being honest and constructive. Thank you for the generosity and support. It's been a blast. :))
Much love, Sam