I just finished reading a book and took lots of notes. Now what?(writing.bobdoto.computer)
writing.bobdoto.computer
I just finished reading a book and took lots of notes. Now what?
https://writing.bobdoto.computer/question-i-just-finished-reading-a-book-and-took-lots-of-notes-now-what/
73 comments
Reading the question I was in disbelief: what a miserable way to experience literature (even non-fiction). Just read the book! Enjoy it! What possible goal could be fulfilled by this kind of incessant note-taking?
Really brilliant people, the kind of people that can take different ideas from different sources and synthesize them into new things, they don’t read books in this way. They just read them. If they do take notes, it’s to check something with some other source or if it’s something they want to remember. They don’t make “120 notes about the most interesting ideas” or whatever. That just sounds like some kind of obsessive dedication to a note-taking system, not a way to actually learn anything, let alone as a good way to experience culture.
Really brilliant people, the kind of people that can take different ideas from different sources and synthesize them into new things, they don’t read books in this way. They just read them. If they do take notes, it’s to check something with some other source or if it’s something they want to remember. They don’t make “120 notes about the most interesting ideas” or whatever. That just sounds like some kind of obsessive dedication to a note-taking system, not a way to actually learn anything, let alone as a good way to experience culture.
From an interview with Jim Keller: "I know people that read books, and they are really worried if they're going to remember them. They spend all this time highlighting and analyzing. I read for interest, right? [...] I meditate regularly, and then I think about what I'm thinking about, which is sometimes related to what I'm reading. Then if it's interesting, it gets incorporated. But your brain is this kind of weird thing - you don't actually have access to all the ideas and thoughts and things you've read, but your personality seems to be well informed by it, and I trust that process. So I don't worry if I can't remember somebody's name [in a book], because their idea may have changed, and who I was and I don't remember what book it came from. I don't care about that stuff."
- https://www.anandtech.com/show/16762/an-anandtech-interview-...
"I cannot remember the books I’ve read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
I used to believe that my reading shaped me despite me forgetting 90% of what I read, but I no longer believe it. Or at least, I have no good reason to believe it - it seems more wishful thinking.
I've even had experiences where I was profoundly affected by some interesting material, only to later realize that I had encountered that material (in a different book) less than a year prior. I hadn't ignored the material the first time, and had been affected by it then as well. I'm pretty sure it didn't shape me at all.
Whether to take notes or not depends on the purpose of reading nonfiction. When I read biographies, I'd like to get the bigger picture rather than the details - so if I do take notes, they are very sparse (e.g. summarizing the major points - perhaps 1-3 pages worth). With some other books I copy quotes of insightful points (e.g. reading The Demon Haunted World, I was struck by how critical he is of the behavior of many skeptics, and noted the irony that many skeptics had recommended the book).
But when it comes to potentially useful self help books: There's really no point in reading them if you don't take serious notes. They don't make for great reading, and may actually have useful material for you for life.
Books like Gladwell's: They're mostly for entertainment. It's fine not to take notes, although it's probably better to read fiction itself.
I've even had experiences where I was profoundly affected by some interesting material, only to later realize that I had encountered that material (in a different book) less than a year prior. I hadn't ignored the material the first time, and had been affected by it then as well. I'm pretty sure it didn't shape me at all.
Whether to take notes or not depends on the purpose of reading nonfiction. When I read biographies, I'd like to get the bigger picture rather than the details - so if I do take notes, they are very sparse (e.g. summarizing the major points - perhaps 1-3 pages worth). With some other books I copy quotes of insightful points (e.g. reading The Demon Haunted World, I was struck by how critical he is of the behavior of many skeptics, and noted the irony that many skeptics had recommended the book).
But when it comes to potentially useful self help books: There's really no point in reading them if you don't take serious notes. They don't make for great reading, and may actually have useful material for you for life.
Books like Gladwell's: They're mostly for entertainment. It's fine not to take notes, although it's probably better to read fiction itself.
Sound about right. But still, you remembered that quote somehow.
May have looked it up.
This is an interesting quote, though Keller's response appears to be framed in the context of business and/or self-help books: more explicitly, books Keller read "for interest," rather than books about technical subjects.
His response (immediately before much of your quote) was: "They spend all this time highlighting and analyzing. I read for interest, right? What I really remember is that people have to write 250-page books, because that's like a publisher rule. It doesn't matter if you have 50 pages of ideas, or 500, but you can tell pretty fast. I've read some really good books that are only 50 pages, because that's all they had. You can also read 50 pages, and you think, ‘wow, it's really great!’, but then the next 50 pages is the same shit. Then you realize it’s just been fleshed out – at that point I wish they just published a shorter book."
That doesn't sound like books that take more effort to really understand (e.g. Plato's works). In more technical subjects, such as mathematics textbooks, would it really be possible for most students to thoroughly understand the subject by just reading, without note-taking or at the very least, trying the practice problems? There is certainly value in note-taking for subjects and books worth thoroughly understanding, even accounting for edge cases where students can learn complex subjects just by reading, without writing.
His response (immediately before much of your quote) was: "They spend all this time highlighting and analyzing. I read for interest, right? What I really remember is that people have to write 250-page books, because that's like a publisher rule. It doesn't matter if you have 50 pages of ideas, or 500, but you can tell pretty fast. I've read some really good books that are only 50 pages, because that's all they had. You can also read 50 pages, and you think, ‘wow, it's really great!’, but then the next 50 pages is the same shit. Then you realize it’s just been fleshed out – at that point I wish they just published a shorter book."
That doesn't sound like books that take more effort to really understand (e.g. Plato's works). In more technical subjects, such as mathematics textbooks, would it really be possible for most students to thoroughly understand the subject by just reading, without note-taking or at the very least, trying the practice problems? There is certainly value in note-taking for subjects and books worth thoroughly understanding, even accounting for edge cases where students can learn complex subjects just by reading, without writing.
That's an interesting view and - I suspect - surprisingly correct.
We're shaped by unconscious gestalt understandings, not by small details.
We're shaped by unconscious gestalt understandings, not by small details.
"Really brilliant people, the kind of people that can take different ideas from different sources and synthesize them into new things, they don’t read books in this way. They just read them. If they do take notes, it’s to check something with some other source or if it’s something they want to remember."
Ah yes, let me take a note of that and remember to mimic these "really brilliant people" who all operate in one way.
I think my own view is not too far off yours, oops, but the way you wrote it as a statement of fact (which is really like 4 propositions in one) made me chuckle.
Ah yes, let me take a note of that and remember to mimic these "really brilliant people" who all operate in one way.
I think my own view is not too far off yours, oops, but the way you wrote it as a statement of fact (which is really like 4 propositions in one) made me chuckle.
To add an example of a brilliant person who operated in a different way via heavy note-taking, philosopher Mortimer J. Adler advocated for note-taking for books that are important to study, after doing an initial read deliberately without note-taking (called "superficial reading").
He wrote a book about it—"How to Read a Book," published in 1940—which was summarized by the Farnam Street blog: https://fs.blog/how-to-read-a-book/
He wrote a book about it—"How to Read a Book," published in 1940—which was summarized by the Farnam Street blog: https://fs.blog/how-to-read-a-book/
Lot of comments are mocking this one, but it has a point.
These people make connections in their heads while reading. They don’t just read but gaze away sometimes and play games in their heads about these ideas. They vet it. Thinking about them in connection with other stuff just come up in their minds.
Notes are to not to forget to follow up something for them mostly.
Taking lots of notes are inefficient and diverts you from doing the stuff above.
I think.
These people make connections in their heads while reading. They don’t just read but gaze away sometimes and play games in their heads about these ideas. They vet it. Thinking about them in connection with other stuff just come up in their minds.
Notes are to not to forget to follow up something for them mostly.
Taking lots of notes are inefficient and diverts you from doing the stuff above.
I think.
That is the point of the article indeed. Think about the book and come up with your own ideas, then write those down and put them into the context of your other ideas.
(I read almost exclusively programming/product/art related non-fiction).
I am someone who “thinks while writing”. Taking notes while reading a book (I usually write into the book margins) allows me to clarify what I think the author is saying, start bringing in some of my ideas and juxtapose them, reformulate some important points. It is the opposite of taking away from the book reading experience: it makes it oh so more vivid. This also applies to articles on the web and my twitter stream.
Seeing how fallible my memory is, I envy people who can recall what they were thinking even just yesterday when reading a complex piece of literature, let alone retrace the complex arguments I make to myself (and the reified author) when reading.
(I read almost exclusively programming/product/art related non-fiction).
I am someone who “thinks while writing”. Taking notes while reading a book (I usually write into the book margins) allows me to clarify what I think the author is saying, start bringing in some of my ideas and juxtapose them, reformulate some important points. It is the opposite of taking away from the book reading experience: it makes it oh so more vivid. This also applies to articles on the web and my twitter stream.
Seeing how fallible my memory is, I envy people who can recall what they were thinking even just yesterday when reading a complex piece of literature, let alone retrace the complex arguments I make to myself (and the reified author) when reading.
counterpoint - if taking notes by hand, the reading and then rewriting of an idea is far superior in terms of my ability to recall the fact/idea/etc in the long run. Taking notes can be miserable but it improves my recall 100x.
>if taking notes by hand
From what I had found when reading about hand- vs keyboard-written notes on Scholar, it didn't seem to make a difference what method you used w.r.t. studies in the contexts of students and grades or memory (citations needed).
If the point is recall, which for me is the main reason I want to take note from reads, intuitively I don't see why the method of writing would make a difference on my recalling process which happens in my head. Keyboard has the advantage that it's easier to organize and keep around, so you have the option to reread your summaries more available.
From what I had found when reading about hand- vs keyboard-written notes on Scholar, it didn't seem to make a difference what method you used w.r.t. studies in the contexts of students and grades or memory (citations needed).
If the point is recall, which for me is the main reason I want to take note from reads, intuitively I don't see why the method of writing would make a difference on my recalling process which happens in my head. Keyboard has the advantage that it's easier to organize and keep around, so you have the option to reread your summaries more available.
My experience has been the opposite, significantly so, and just because you can't intuit why writing and typing might differ doesn't mean our brains are doing the same things when doing one or the other.
Taking notes can be miserable but it improves my recall 100x.
Exactly. Taking notes is great if you have a goal in mind, like incorporating ideas into your own writing or quickly grasping a complex system you're learning about. It doesn't make sense to apply to everything you read unless you don't read for pleasure at all.
Exactly. Taking notes is great if you have a goal in mind, like incorporating ideas into your own writing or quickly grasping a complex system you're learning about. It doesn't make sense to apply to everything you read unless you don't read for pleasure at all.
I agree. I definitely don't take notes on everything I read.
I think this resonates really well with an old HN comment (one of my all time favorites) by Alan Kay on reading and remembering: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11809285
"The simple heuristic is 'relax'." In other words: sleep on it?
Might be due to my soon 40yo brain, but I've come to more and more value forgetting things -- hoping that the really relevant to me bits of any information will "float to the surface" of my brain by themselves, over some time.
"The simple heuristic is 'relax'." In other words: sleep on it?
Might be due to my soon 40yo brain, but I've come to more and more value forgetting things -- hoping that the really relevant to me bits of any information will "float to the surface" of my brain by themselves, over some time.
Some more context -- Alan Kay discussing whether he has read 20,000 books in his life or not, and he also drifts to things like remembering and knowledge accumulation in general: https://www.quora.com/How-did-Alan-Kay-read-20k-books
I don't know what it is, but I feel like I could read prof Kay's musings over and over again. There's always an almost magical clarity in the way he explains things, and a lot of empathy and respect towards the listener. What a great mind.
I don't know what it is, but I feel like I could read prof Kay's musings over and over again. There's always an almost magical clarity in the way he explains things, and a lot of empathy and respect towards the listener. What a great mind.
Always funny to read sweeping generalizations about "really brilliant people"
There's a lot of truth there about the obsessive nature some people might take, but I don't think it's that black and white.
Some books are denser than others. Sometimes you can stumble into information very dear to your own interests, and the best way to keep preserve that memory is probably taking a note. This might be solely for personal education and fulfillment, by the way.
Some books are denser than others. Sometimes you can stumble into information very dear to your own interests, and the best way to keep preserve that memory is probably taking a note. This might be solely for personal education and fulfillment, by the way.
Some of us aren't "really brilliant people". Some of us are trying to make the most of an average intelligence.
While reading 500 pages of fiction or non-fiction, we're introduced to dozens of people, places, events and ideas that we'd like to know more about, but don't want to interrupt the flow of the book to pursue at that moment.
Some of these people, places, events and ideas are new to us. Some are familiar but from a different perspective. Sometimes there's a different context or frame that provides new insights into what we thought we already understood.
Those of us with average intelligence sometimes find it difficult to remember what we thought was important when we were on page 206 of 500.
Even though we're not extraordinarily brilliant, we also want to synthesize different ideas and make connections among various sources for better understanding, and for inspiration into what to read and research next.
While reading 500 pages of fiction or non-fiction, we're introduced to dozens of people, places, events and ideas that we'd like to know more about, but don't want to interrupt the flow of the book to pursue at that moment.
Some of these people, places, events and ideas are new to us. Some are familiar but from a different perspective. Sometimes there's a different context or frame that provides new insights into what we thought we already understood.
Those of us with average intelligence sometimes find it difficult to remember what we thought was important when we were on page 206 of 500.
Even though we're not extraordinarily brilliant, we also want to synthesize different ideas and make connections among various sources for better understanding, and for inspiration into what to read and research next.
As someone without a photographic memory I am quite interested in trying a note taking system like this to increase my enjoyment of reading, and long term benefit of it.
You can write the notes up in an SRS and make sure that the ideas stay in your long-term memory. While not without their drawbacks (such as a lack of explicit support for dependency hierarchies, that might enable higher-level learning beyond raw "ideas") SRS systems really are ridiculously efficient once you go past the effort of inputing content and first committing it to memory.
For me, taking notes is writing, thinking, intellectual stimulation, not passive copying and interrupting the reading. It is engaging with the work, savoring the insights one can gather. If it is not enjoyable, if you feel it is pointless and tedious, then of course don't do it.
I think writing on the margins of the book and underlining (even vertical underlining, which is very quick) is a good compromise.
I rarely read without a pencil these days. It is low effort and helps me find interesting bits later and engage with the book.
I am probably not really brilliant, so YMMV :)
I rarely read without a pencil these days. It is low effort and helps me find interesting bits later and engage with the book.
I am probably not really brilliant, so YMMV :)
I think notes so I can remember though.
When I have a thought or an idea, I can then refer to the book I read years ago with my relevant notes, else it's just in one ear and out the other.
When I have a thought or an idea, I can then refer to the book I read years ago with my relevant notes, else it's just in one ear and out the other.
> Modern day knowledge workers are under constant cultural pressure that tells them everything they do is better if they shove it up its own ass.
I wonder what this sentence means.
"Your vacation is going to be way better if you shove it up its own ass."
???
I wonder what this sentence means.
"Your vacation is going to be way better if you shove it up its own ass."
???
I don’t know if I agree, but it means to overanalyse and overoptimize everything. Being too meta instead of experiencing things directly.
You’d do that to a vacation by having a series of emotional goals for the journey, with a plan for daily photo session highlights for your social media audience, and five-point-plans for each waking hour with target goals, contingencies, and meta-analysis of how it all fits into your optimal vacation experience. You’d be taking notes throughout for your pre-planned four post blog series on how to optimise vacations at the end. Presumably all of this would be tied up into some deeply researched simple trick to get the best out of life, the universe, and everything, or get rich quick, or live forever. Something like that.
Instead of going somewhere, having a bit of an agenda, and trying to go with the flow and see what happens/enjoy it.
You’d do that to a vacation by having a series of emotional goals for the journey, with a plan for daily photo session highlights for your social media audience, and five-point-plans for each waking hour with target goals, contingencies, and meta-analysis of how it all fits into your optimal vacation experience. You’d be taking notes throughout for your pre-planned four post blog series on how to optimise vacations at the end. Presumably all of this would be tied up into some deeply researched simple trick to get the best out of life, the universe, and everything, or get rich quick, or live forever. Something like that.
Instead of going somewhere, having a bit of an agenda, and trying to go with the flow and see what happens/enjoy it.
> Without specific goals in mind obsessive self-documentation is just a massive level of busy-work that doesn't actually contribute to your skills or happiness.
I don't think this is true. Taking notes like this is shown to help with the ideas and knowledge you retain after having read the book (surprisingly: if you take the notes by hand it is better than if you type them somewhere).
I often take notes while I read books or attend meetings without ever having the intention of using them for anything. It helps me memorize the important bits of the thing I spent some time of my life on. And then it can simmer within me, mix with some other books, movies, music, experiences and come out as an really new idea. And then potentially I could go back to the notes (I rarely do) if there is something I was not sure about.
I don't think this is true. Taking notes like this is shown to help with the ideas and knowledge you retain after having read the book (surprisingly: if you take the notes by hand it is better than if you type them somewhere).
I often take notes while I read books or attend meetings without ever having the intention of using them for anything. It helps me memorize the important bits of the thing I spent some time of my life on. And then it can simmer within me, mix with some other books, movies, music, experiences and come out as an really new idea. And then potentially I could go back to the notes (I rarely do) if there is something I was not sure about.
I had to basically memorize a particular academic book for a tough university entrace exam. I created around 50 pages of dense hand-written notes on it, and could recall all the arguments contained in the book with detail. 15 years later, all I remember from that is that the book was about early humans, tool making... or something along those lines. The note making helped with short-term retention, but did nothing for long term retention.
You need spaced repetition for long term retention.
Human memory is like dynamic RAM: you have to keep refreshing it.
Human memory is like dynamic RAM: you have to keep refreshing it.
Did you ever revisit the notes? I would expect spaced repetition to help with that.
Why would he? Forgetting irrelevant information is not a problem to be solved; it's garbage cleanup.
I think the point is that you could occasionally read thru your relevant (for whatever interest you have) notes to keep those ideas ~refresh in memory. I doubt anyone's advocating for reading every note you've taken in school 20 years ago.
AFAIK our brains are not saturated SD cards, learning something doesn't remove an older file.
AFAIK our brains are not saturated SD cards, learning something doesn't remove an older file.
I inferred from the comment I was replying to that the commenter was disappointed to have forgotten this particular information. You can’t regret forgetting something while also considering it irrelevant garbage.
I read it as him pointing out that taking notes only helped him while the information was immediately useful and at this point he's forgotten it as thoroughly as if he hadn't taken notes at all.
Has anyone come across a decent summary service? Asking for a friend.
I work on the assumption that the half-life of knowledge gained from books, essays, and articles is about 2.5 years (I'm forgetful, but probably not more than average).
So I use a mechanical pencil to write small notes in the margins of books/essays. Then I write them up in a google doc (or if it's a coding book, on GitHub, usually in a public repo). My notes are always available and ~20-50x faster than if I were to re-read the book (and probably yield 90% of the value).
An unexpected bonus is the perspective gained from scanning notes I took years ago. It teaches me a lot about the person I was at that point in time, and my ideas then usually differ from how I think about things now. Very valuable for introspection and perspective!
So I use a mechanical pencil to write small notes in the margins of books/essays. Then I write them up in a google doc (or if it's a coding book, on GitHub, usually in a public repo). My notes are always available and ~20-50x faster than if I were to re-read the book (and probably yield 90% of the value).
An unexpected bonus is the perspective gained from scanning notes I took years ago. It teaches me a lot about the person I was at that point in time, and my ideas then usually differ from how I think about things now. Very valuable for introspection and perspective!
This "conversation with my past self" is IMHO one of the most valuable aspects of writing notes (in the margin, on sticky notes, etc.)
Like you, I enjoy seeing what lens I was (over)using at that time, and what I thought of the various points made by the author.
Also concur about the ~20-50x speedup, especially useful to quickly recap what I found salient in the book.
Like you, I enjoy seeing what lens I was (over)using at that time, and what I thought of the various points made by the author.
Also concur about the ~20-50x speedup, especially useful to quickly recap what I found salient in the book.
What I miss in this discussion is the level of proficiency and purpose of the reader.
> Your zettelkasten should be made up of your ideas about the authors ideas. Linking these notes is what's meant to happen.
If the subject is new to me, I will have few or no valid ideas yet. It'll take several readings to start having some.
In order to start having valuable ideas, I need to keep relevant third-party ideas in my working memory. That's where taking notes and, especially, reviewing them frequently is important.
But it all depends on the purpose. If I don't mean to improve my mastery of a subject in the short term, I can just enjoy and let the experience of reading surprise myself.
> Your zettelkasten should be made up of your ideas about the authors ideas. Linking these notes is what's meant to happen.
If the subject is new to me, I will have few or no valid ideas yet. It'll take several readings to start having some.
In order to start having valuable ideas, I need to keep relevant third-party ideas in my working memory. That's where taking notes and, especially, reviewing them frequently is important.
But it all depends on the purpose. If I don't mean to improve my mastery of a subject in the short term, I can just enjoy and let the experience of reading surprise myself.
Am I the only one who feels like these complicated systems are ridiculous?
https://twitter.com/mixcocam/status/1412161067967516675?t=cL...
When they are described like that, they are ridiculous. That description of what to do lacks the context of why you might want to take notes at all. The OP put it best with, "Your zettelkasten should be made up of your ideas about the authors ideas."
It took me a couple of years of "doing it wrong", researching some more, and practicing the act of notetaking to understand why some people are such strong advocates of zettelkasten. Thinking and writing down one's own thoughts to reflect on later is far more useful than recording the thoughts of others.
It took me a couple of years of "doing it wrong", researching some more, and practicing the act of notetaking to understand why some people are such strong advocates of zettelkasten. Thinking and writing down one's own thoughts to reflect on later is far more useful than recording the thoughts of others.
Glad to read in most of the comments that this whole fad of obsessing with some weird productivity hack will make a difference in output is fading.
I’m not sure that notetaking is a weird productivity hack. If anything, this is about taking notes that will enrich your thinking and intellectual output, rather than just mindlessly highlighting or jotting down passages of a book. Writers have been using notes, marginalia, post-its, diaries, written correspondence for a while now.
Utterly. I'm disappointed that what would otherwise be practical advice has this overly specific implementation mentioned. It's as if you could not possibly think properly if you did not use zettelkasten. Feels like being in love with the idea of productivity and meaning rather than actually doing it.
It makes total sense however that taking notes without synthesis is somewhat pointless. These are things you probably won't read again. The catch is I think many do both without really thinking about it in the form of commentary in notes.
It makes total sense however that taking notes without synthesis is somewhat pointless. These are things you probably won't read again. The catch is I think many do both without really thinking about it in the form of commentary in notes.
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My approach has always been to enjoy the reading process and allow the important parts to hopefully sink in, and if they don’t and it’s actually important it’s fine because it will come up again somewhere else. So far so good and no time needed to be spent on complex knowledge-documentation systems.
>The next step, is to take only those ideas that are relevant to what you're working on (after all, the ZK is primarily a tool for helping writers develop their ideas) and make individual zettels for each one based on your interpretation of the author's idea. But, in order to do this, you have to know what you're working on!
Does this mean that if you don't know what you want to do that the zettelkasten is not the right method? In other words, zettelkasten is more a search than a find tool. Has somebody developed a method that's more appropriate for discovering and linking new ideas for new projects?
Does this mean that if you don't know what you want to do that the zettelkasten is not the right method? In other words, zettelkasten is more a search than a find tool. Has somebody developed a method that's more appropriate for discovering and linking new ideas for new projects?
> In other words, zettelkasten is more a search than a find tool
Yes. Luhmann called it a partner he could converse with.
But note that he didn't store cards about thermodynamics, cloud formation or garden plants in it.
He stored cards pertaining to his research interests.
Yes. Luhmann called it a partner he could converse with.
But note that he didn't store cards about thermodynamics, cloud formation or garden plants in it.
He stored cards pertaining to his research interests.
As I understand the theory, it is for things you may, or may not, produce. If you at a future point would decide to write a book, paper, blogpost, design draft, manifesto, or anything of that sort, about things that you currently find interesting. Then ZK is about moving the note taking part of that future work to doing it now. With the option of using it for something completely different if that work changes your understanding and interests along the way.
Although I agree with the sentiment here, I must admit that I have recently started to write small notes in a flat text file. 3-4 lines for each book. Just enough that I can refresh my memory that it was this book that had the interesting ideas about that, for the day when I want to reread it.
The first thing that I like to do after taking a lot of notes is to go back through each note one by one and see if I can apply it to an existing problem or paper that I am currently working on.
It allows me to reframe my existing problems using what might be a completely unorthodox perspective and may even be at least on the surface totally unrelated.
But ultimately what you do with the notes is highly dependent on what your goals are. If your intent is just to be able to increase your existing body of knowledge then it may be worth looking into some kind of SRS flashcards system for the most salient points.
For somebody with a greater desire for application purposes then they might apply the strategy that I mentioned earlier.
It allows me to reframe my existing problems using what might be a completely unorthodox perspective and may even be at least on the surface totally unrelated.
But ultimately what you do with the notes is highly dependent on what your goals are. If your intent is just to be able to increase your existing body of knowledge then it may be worth looking into some kind of SRS flashcards system for the most salient points.
For somebody with a greater desire for application purposes then they might apply the strategy that I mentioned earlier.
This reminds me of a story from John Cage’s “Silence”[1]
Sometime in the 60s or 70s Krishnamurti came to the US and gave some lectures. Cage was at one of these. Krishnamurti started the lecture saying something along the lines of “Please don’t take notes. Just listen, and take away whatever you take away. Anything you forget didn’t matter to you anyway.”.
The woman next to John Cage was writing notes and the person on the other side of her turned to her and said “What did he just say? I couldn’t hear.”
To which the woman replied “He said not to take notes. See? I have it written here in my notes.”
[1] Which is a really cool book btw.
Sometime in the 60s or 70s Krishnamurti came to the US and gave some lectures. Cage was at one of these. Krishnamurti started the lecture saying something along the lines of “Please don’t take notes. Just listen, and take away whatever you take away. Anything you forget didn’t matter to you anyway.”.
The woman next to John Cage was writing notes and the person on the other side of her turned to her and said “What did he just say? I couldn’t hear.”
To which the woman replied “He said not to take notes. See? I have it written here in my notes.”
[1] Which is a really cool book btw.
Now read the book again, you'd be surprised how much more information is actually there.
It may be just me, but most of the value of note-taking for me comes from the physical and mental acts of writing something down on paper, which etches a strong memory into my brain. If I write it, I'll remember it, even though I rarely refer to notes later.
There is science about that specific kind of memory formation
Got any links to papers? I'd like to know just how weird I am. :-)
Also: you may be a kinaesthetic learner, and that’s pretty weird
I built this simple app to convert kindle notes into markdown https://github.com/Woile/kindle-notes-parser and split per book.
Then I move those files to my second brain and then I create flashcards from some of these books notes. I feel like the Kindle notes become more useful this way, before those notes were just forgotten in a txt inside the Kindle haha
Then I move those files to my second brain and then I create flashcards from some of these books notes. I feel like the Kindle notes become more useful this way, before those notes were just forgotten in a txt inside the Kindle haha
I have never heard of zettelkasten before, but all I know is that I have learned of an interesting new book to read in Dirt.
A good question.
I don't know anything about you.
I don't know anything about the book you are reading.
I don't know anything about the way you are taking notes.
I don't know what do you want.
So nobody can give you good advice. If you give the above information to strangers on the internet some people will be able to help you.
I don't know anything about you.
I don't know anything about the book you are reading.
I don't know anything about the way you are taking notes.
I don't know what do you want.
So nobody can give you good advice. If you give the above information to strangers on the internet some people will be able to help you.
Spaced repetition all the way, my man. I’ve been using a flashcard program called SuperMemo for more than 15 years to remember cool stuff, and now I have a destination for anything noteworthy I find while reading or listening to podcasts.
I write a short summary that tries to condensate the main idea, theme or point of the book. I'm satisfied with the result.
I don't always have time for that, so I keep a markdown notepad with bullet points on books.
I don't always have time for that, so I keep a markdown notepad with bullet points on books.
> Now what?
Read another book ;)
Read another book ;)
Make a summary & review video & post article :)
put the notes in the shredder then re-write them as quickly as you can
Hi, everyone! Thanks so much for taking the time to read the piece, and for getting into awesome conversations. The kind I am often a part of, but not the subject of!
Something the vast majority of you all missed in such a spectacular and majestic fashion, is that the post was responding to someone specifically asking about what to do after reading a book as part of the zettelkasten method (see the bottom of the post for a link to the original source and comment thread). When working ZK, one of the fundamental steps is to interpret things you find interesting in light of what you're working on, and import those ideas into your zettelkasten. The OP was simply capturing the ideas of the author, and when having trouble linking them to one another, wondered why. To which I stated that that was because the author had already done so for the OP (in the book they read). The OP's job now was to explore how the ideas of the author informed their own work. This is standard zettelkasten stuff.
Now, as per the comments on "why can't you just read without taking notes" and "this is productivity bs" and "this post is why Putin invaded Ukrain" etc etc.... Lets be clear.
1. When I'm not reading for the purpose of mining the material for insight into what I'm working on also "just read for the pleasure." But, I also read a lot with a pen in hand, which, I should say, is pleasurable to me.
2. 99.9999% of PKM at the entry level (and a few levels below it) is absolute productivity bs. The pkm scene has been thoroughly infiltrated by the productivity scene and it is a true summer bummer. Nevertheless, like anything worth your time, the goods are far beneath the surface. Zettelkasten, tho often presented as an aspect of productivity (which it certainly can be) is also just a dope as way of engaging with your own ideas if you're a writer. Not the only way. Maybe not even the best. But, defs a good one.
3. And, this is a real one referring to the commenter asking about "how can you have your own ideas if it's new material" this requires a much longer response, but I'll say this: if you don't have ideas when you read something yoube never experienced before either A. You've had a lobotomy or B. You're asleep. Of course you have ideas. They may not be worth much at the moment. But, perhaps that's because you're concerned with the wrong ideas. In zettelkasten, we're not necessarily concerned with ideas that are specifically related to the exact subject at hand but more so what it ideas, even tangential to the subject, come up for you. For example, when I read Donut Economics, I took a bunch of notes. Not so much on economics (I'm not an economist) but on how some of the ideas informed my thinking about social media. What??? Yes. That's because, writing and thinking about social media is something I was interested in, and that's where my mind went.
OK? Good? You all get the context now? Exhale. ;)
Something the vast majority of you all missed in such a spectacular and majestic fashion, is that the post was responding to someone specifically asking about what to do after reading a book as part of the zettelkasten method (see the bottom of the post for a link to the original source and comment thread). When working ZK, one of the fundamental steps is to interpret things you find interesting in light of what you're working on, and import those ideas into your zettelkasten. The OP was simply capturing the ideas of the author, and when having trouble linking them to one another, wondered why. To which I stated that that was because the author had already done so for the OP (in the book they read). The OP's job now was to explore how the ideas of the author informed their own work. This is standard zettelkasten stuff.
Now, as per the comments on "why can't you just read without taking notes" and "this is productivity bs" and "this post is why Putin invaded Ukrain" etc etc.... Lets be clear.
1. When I'm not reading for the purpose of mining the material for insight into what I'm working on also "just read for the pleasure." But, I also read a lot with a pen in hand, which, I should say, is pleasurable to me.
2. 99.9999% of PKM at the entry level (and a few levels below it) is absolute productivity bs. The pkm scene has been thoroughly infiltrated by the productivity scene and it is a true summer bummer. Nevertheless, like anything worth your time, the goods are far beneath the surface. Zettelkasten, tho often presented as an aspect of productivity (which it certainly can be) is also just a dope as way of engaging with your own ideas if you're a writer. Not the only way. Maybe not even the best. But, defs a good one.
3. And, this is a real one referring to the commenter asking about "how can you have your own ideas if it's new material" this requires a much longer response, but I'll say this: if you don't have ideas when you read something yoube never experienced before either A. You've had a lobotomy or B. You're asleep. Of course you have ideas. They may not be worth much at the moment. But, perhaps that's because you're concerned with the wrong ideas. In zettelkasten, we're not necessarily concerned with ideas that are specifically related to the exact subject at hand but more so what it ideas, even tangential to the subject, come up for you. For example, when I read Donut Economics, I took a bunch of notes. Not so much on economics (I'm not an economist) but on how some of the ideas informed my thinking about social media. What??? Yes. That's because, writing and thinking about social media is something I was interested in, and that's where my mind went.
OK? Good? You all get the context now? Exhale. ;)
This is a very important sentence. Modern day knowledge workers are under constant cultural pressure that tells them everything they do is better if they shove it up its own ass. You don't have to create a document for every book you read, a record of every action you take. Without specific goals in mind obsessive self-documentation is just a massive level of busy-work that doesn't actually contribute to your skills or happiness.