Write a note to your spouse every day(jdnoc.com)
jdnoc.com
Write a note to your spouse every day
https://jdnoc.com/note/
302 comments
I think the responses / strategies / etc. are diverse because relationships are as diverse as the human race. What works in one relationship has no guarantee of working in another.
The article is certainly well-meaning but it has a bit of a "one weird trick" feel to it. It's written by a 30 year old man who has done something to improve his marriage which is great. It's anyone's guess what kind of article he's going to write when he's 60. He's on a good track, he's learned that regular communication is almost always a win, my own $0.02 is that if there's any one secret weapon, it's that.
But there are also relationships and people where there's nothing that will work, someone is just a rotten apple, or maybe the trust is irreparably damaged. I've had partners who were such supportive, caring human beings that I felt humbled - a little ashamed of my own selfishness by comparison. But I've also had partners who were clearly in it for themselves, seeing what they could milk out of me, and no amount of communication was going to change that. For the latter there was no strategy that was going to fix it - the only right path was to end it and move on.
The article is certainly well-meaning but it has a bit of a "one weird trick" feel to it. It's written by a 30 year old man who has done something to improve his marriage which is great. It's anyone's guess what kind of article he's going to write when he's 60. He's on a good track, he's learned that regular communication is almost always a win, my own $0.02 is that if there's any one secret weapon, it's that.
But there are also relationships and people where there's nothing that will work, someone is just a rotten apple, or maybe the trust is irreparably damaged. I've had partners who were such supportive, caring human beings that I felt humbled - a little ashamed of my own selfishness by comparison. But I've also had partners who were clearly in it for themselves, seeing what they could milk out of me, and no amount of communication was going to change that. For the latter there was no strategy that was going to fix it - the only right path was to end it and move on.
I don’t fear much but my wife dying before me is up there, right after my kids. I hope to experience and provide the marriage you’ve experienced.
This year will be my third married and my 10th being in a relationship with my wife. It’s been a tumultuous journey at times because of lack of communication.
In lieu of notes like OP mentioned, my wife and I just check in with each other every morning. And, throughout the day. She’s naturally thoughtful while I’m mostly focused on myself. We had a talk a few months ago and it was revealed that my self-centeredness was a defense mechanism I haven’t needed to deploy for at least a decade.
I could go on and on so I’ll just stop here and co-sign once more; communicate with your spouse. And then do it even more than that.
This year will be my third married and my 10th being in a relationship with my wife. It’s been a tumultuous journey at times because of lack of communication.
In lieu of notes like OP mentioned, my wife and I just check in with each other every morning. And, throughout the day. She’s naturally thoughtful while I’m mostly focused on myself. We had a talk a few months ago and it was revealed that my self-centeredness was a defense mechanism I haven’t needed to deploy for at least a decade.
I could go on and on so I’ll just stop here and co-sign once more; communicate with your spouse. And then do it even more than that.
* a defense mechanism I haven’t needed to deploy for at least a decade*
the behaviors we learn through our experience to protect ourselves are very hard to shake off. quite often we are not even aware of them or understand why. and any new partner will end up working hard trying to break through. but it looks like your partners effort and patience is starting to pay off. good luck to your continued future.
the behaviors we learn through our experience to protect ourselves are very hard to shake off. quite often we are not even aware of them or understand why. and any new partner will end up working hard trying to break through. but it looks like your partners effort and patience is starting to pay off. good luck to your continued future.
Yeah I agree. This is the core idea of IFS Internal Family Systems. Heard about it on Time Ferriss. A real life friend recommended it. I tried it and benefited from it.
Thank you. I'm always happy so if she's happy, I'm ecstatic.
I’d be interested to hear more.
I have come to realize that I am very self centered, but I can’t quite figure out why.
I tend to get very caught up and focused on what is going on in my life and never stop to think about others. It is more that the thought never occurs to me, as opposed to me consciously prioritizing myself over others.
My wife on the other hand is very thoughtful, always checking in on others to see how they are doing. I wish I could be more like that, but would require some external override (eg setting a reminder on my phone) instead of me organically deciding to do so.
I have come to realize that I am very self centered, but I can’t quite figure out why.
I tend to get very caught up and focused on what is going on in my life and never stop to think about others. It is more that the thought never occurs to me, as opposed to me consciously prioritizing myself over others.
My wife on the other hand is very thoughtful, always checking in on others to see how they are doing. I wish I could be more like that, but would require some external override (eg setting a reminder on my phone) instead of me organically deciding to do so.
Our situation is very much the same. In fact, it was constantly seeing my wife check-in with her family that encouraged me to do the same. About a month ago I called my grandmother and had a two-hour convo and I learned that my mother never wanted her to have my number, for whatever reason. I regret not thinking of reaching out to her sooner but we're both glad I did.
My parents divorced when I was 13 or so but dual-parented. My dad was very focused on trying to get me to be more "macho" and my mom didn't seem to care much about whatever I had going on. So, I kept to myself; reading books, dreaming up inventions, sketching, &c. When college came, I found out via campus security that I did NOT have a college fund and was subsequently removed from campus. For some reason, my mom seemed angry at me for being home even though she's the one who bragged to everyone for YEARS that her kids had a college fund and never had to worry about working while focusing on education.
I'm starting to feel resentment as I recall things so I'll just say this: my feeling weren't considered when I was a child/teen, I didn't have help in early adulthood, and I was setup to fail (credit/identity theft victim, per mother). As a result, I had to learn how to live in the "real world" without a safety net and try to figure out how to forgive people because these people would never apologize (or even remember their actions).
Doing all this got me through all right. I'm self-taught, have a pretty cool job, and live relatively stress-free in a safe community with a great school district. Nearly ever day is sunny but having someone you trust that can tell you objective things about yourself is a must.
Thinking of others when you've only thought of yourself for two decades is hella difficult but not impossible. I make sure to call my grandmother at least every two weeks. I look for ways to make my wife's life easier around the house. I'm more productive in my downtime so I can make progress on my personal projects so I can be present when the family's doing something. It's a lot of work but my life has demonstrably improved.
My parents divorced when I was 13 or so but dual-parented. My dad was very focused on trying to get me to be more "macho" and my mom didn't seem to care much about whatever I had going on. So, I kept to myself; reading books, dreaming up inventions, sketching, &c. When college came, I found out via campus security that I did NOT have a college fund and was subsequently removed from campus. For some reason, my mom seemed angry at me for being home even though she's the one who bragged to everyone for YEARS that her kids had a college fund and never had to worry about working while focusing on education.
I'm starting to feel resentment as I recall things so I'll just say this: my feeling weren't considered when I was a child/teen, I didn't have help in early adulthood, and I was setup to fail (credit/identity theft victim, per mother). As a result, I had to learn how to live in the "real world" without a safety net and try to figure out how to forgive people because these people would never apologize (or even remember their actions).
Doing all this got me through all right. I'm self-taught, have a pretty cool job, and live relatively stress-free in a safe community with a great school district. Nearly ever day is sunny but having someone you trust that can tell you objective things about yourself is a must.
Thinking of others when you've only thought of yourself for two decades is hella difficult but not impossible. I make sure to call my grandmother at least every two weeks. I look for ways to make my wife's life easier around the house. I'm more productive in my downtime so I can make progress on my personal projects so I can be present when the family's doing something. It's a lot of work but my life has demonstrably improved.
"I did NOT have a college fund and was subsequently removed from campus" -- wait, what? This is a thing in the US?
We don't even have "college funds" in Australia but if you don't pay your uni fees you just won't get a degree, nobody's going to physically remove you from anywhere, that seems nuts...
Yeah so for us in the States, the concept of a college fund is just a bank account that parents deposit money into over the course of a child's life so when they reach college age there isn't anxiety about the cost of college.
I assumed as much, but why would a student get physically removed from campus just because they didn't have one??
It's not that I didn't have one, it's that my mom lied to me about having one and was instead writing bad checks to the college. They didn't like checks bouncing so I had a few days to get off campus or else.
Believe it or not there was an outcry here when fees were introduced for tertiary education. But you pay them using a government-backed interest-free loan - I think it took me 6 or 7 years to pay off two degrees? Still, as I said, even if for whatever reason you attended lectures etc. without having paid for enrolment, nobody would care.
That’s amazing. I was attending an out-of-state university with no friends or family in the area so that wouldn’t have been an option.
I don’t regret what led me to the life I have now, I just wish it didn’t take as long to get here.
I don’t regret what led me to the life I have now, I just wish it didn’t take as long to get here.
Have you ever considered whether you may have ADHD?
Not saying it’s the case. But if so, that would be an explanation that would make sense to me.
Not saying it’s the case. But if so, that would be an explanation that would make sense to me.
My therapist mentioned the same thing to me recently so I suppose it is worth investigating further.
I had never considered it before that, probably due to lack of understanding of what ADD/ADHD is (when I was growing up the stereotype was high energy kids bouncing off the walls and unable to sit still and focus in class, whereas I was low energy, introverted, and had always done well in school and work so it was never a thought).
I had never considered it before that, probably due to lack of understanding of what ADD/ADHD is (when I was growing up the stereotype was high energy kids bouncing off the walls and unable to sit still and focus in class, whereas I was low energy, introverted, and had always done well in school and work so it was never a thought).
i can recognize myself in what you just wrote. and in my case i am pretty sure that it comes from my parents divorce and the lack of role models. there was nobody in my life growing up who would show care for me or for others in the way that your wife (and also mine) was doing it. i have the same issue with generosity. i haven't experienced people being generous as i grew up and as a result i don't know how to do it. it's just not something that i'd think about, and i have to consciously remind myself to share more things with others.
on the other hand, despite being somewhat introvert, i have no problem inviting some of those regilious types, when they come knocking at my door and having a serious conversation with them, while critically inspecting their claims. why? because that i did learn from my dad who was welcoming, open minded yet serious about his own beliefs.
on the other hand, despite being somewhat introvert, i have no problem inviting some of those regilious types, when they come knocking at my door and having a serious conversation with them, while critically inspecting their claims. why? because that i did learn from my dad who was welcoming, open minded yet serious about his own beliefs.
EDIT: I'm in my 5th year of marriage. I've known her for 18 years now, not sure when we started dating...good thing my wife doesn't read HN.
This is probably the most abjectly negative comment section I've seen on HN. Really reddit-tier comments coming from some well aged accounts.
The submission is classic Reddit typical, to be fair. So one should expect a HN user to respond appropriately. I expect the submission to be flagged or at least not be visible on the front page in a couple of hours.
Yep. I suspect this submission is SEO spam, based on the authors other content about... yeah you guessed it, creating SEO spam.
Yeah, who wants to take life advice from someone who describes themselves like this - "I’m an Indiehacker with a goal to teach others what I know about niche products, SEO, and making money online."? Certainly not me.
The whole idea of communicating via notes rubs me the wrong way because the only people who ever tried to do it with me were toxic, manipulative, and didn't care about me as a person. My healthy relationships communicate face-to-face.
The whole idea of communicating via notes rubs me the wrong way because the only people who ever tried to do it with me were toxic, manipulative, and didn't care about me as a person. My healthy relationships communicate face-to-face.
Author here - so awesome your marriage lasted 37 years. I can't imagine that loss. Thanks for the kind words.
Sorry to hear about your loss.
I have been married for ~10 years. Ups and downs, but mostly happy to have chosen her. And hoping to get to 37, and past that, and live a long life together. I really hope that.
I have been married for ~10 years. Ups and downs, but mostly happy to have chosen her. And hoping to get to 37, and past that, and live a long life together. I really hope that.
I think the main lesson from the article is that communication is key. There's different ways of going about it, and daily notes is just one of them.
I guess I just don’t care about any of this. I can tell if my wife (or girlfriend) loves me or not based on body language and actions. These sorts of things have no significance to me, words mean very little. I’m all about action— body language, your tone when speaking, a respectful demeanor, being gracious and pleasant, smiling a lot, keeping the peace - are the only things that matter in my opinion.
My wife is the same way. Words mean little, actions are her love language.
Words are mine. My assumption is everyone means what they say. I tend to take things too literally sometimes.
It’s been hard to figure that out about each other, but once we did it’s been easier to translate our love into the language of the other person.
My point here is that people have differences in the way they operate and some day you might find the love of your life operates differently too. Keep an open mind about it and seek to understand.
Words are mine. My assumption is everyone means what they say. I tend to take things too literally sometimes.
It’s been hard to figure that out about each other, but once we did it’s been easier to translate our love into the language of the other person.
My point here is that people have differences in the way they operate and some day you might find the love of your life operates differently too. Keep an open mind about it and seek to understand.
I wonder if your significant other feels the same way?
Yeah, notes are the polish, not the foundation.
I'm really sorry to hear that :(
I have had an opposite experience. Daily notes makes no difference. I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her. But it failed nevertheless. In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt. Weird.
Gestures like these amplify whatever the relationship there is to start with.
If there's a lot of love, they amplify it.
If there's a lot of lack of commitment, they amplify it.
They do not change lack of commitment into love magically.
Sorry for being the party pooper. I understand where the OP is coming from and I truly respect that. Just wanted to add a bit of more context.
Gestures like these amplify whatever the relationship there is to start with.
If there's a lot of love, they amplify it.
If there's a lot of lack of commitment, they amplify it.
They do not change lack of commitment into love magically.
Sorry for being the party pooper. I understand where the OP is coming from and I truly respect that. Just wanted to add a bit of more context.
> But it failed nevertheless. In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt. Weird.
I think you're missing some perspective here. You make it sound like you were the one really trying, and your partner is the one who was weird for not "getting it".
I would honestly be pretty freaked out if my partner wrote me daily poems for 400 days. It would come off as very needy and obsessive, and if it continued after me bringing it up, I could see it as a reason to break things off.
Of course some people might really like daily poems. But from what you wrote, it sounds a little like you've failed to read the room, and are now blaming others for that.
I think you're missing some perspective here. You make it sound like you were the one really trying, and your partner is the one who was weird for not "getting it".
I would honestly be pretty freaked out if my partner wrote me daily poems for 400 days. It would come off as very needy and obsessive, and if it continued after me bringing it up, I could see it as a reason to break things off.
Of course some people might really like daily poems. But from what you wrote, it sounds a little like you've failed to read the room, and are now blaming others for that.
I would honestly be pretty freaked out if my partner wrote me daily poems for 400 days. It would come off as very needy and obsessive, and if it continued after me bringing it up, I could see it as a reason to break things off.
Same. Occasional poem? I'm not necessarily a fan, but it is thoughtful and boy, does that thoughtfulness go a long way. But daily is intense, and I'd much rather daily communication to be fairly direct and daily thoughtfulness being small things that are optional but nice (making me a cup of coffee when I'm groggily heading to the toilet in the morning, for example).
Same. Occasional poem? I'm not necessarily a fan, but it is thoughtful and boy, does that thoughtfulness go a long way. But daily is intense, and I'd much rather daily communication to be fairly direct and daily thoughtfulness being small things that are optional but nice (making me a cup of coffee when I'm groggily heading to the toilet in the morning, for example).
If my wife were the poem-writing type, I would love a poem a day for 30,000 days, let alone four hundred.
But paying attention to people when you give them something is very important. People are different. You may cringe at poems, but I love them. I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife. We talked about getting married on our first date it went so well.
So I guess what I'm also trying to get at here is that your contribution of your opinion to the conversation may be valid, but it's more kind if it's not so universal as to be judgemental, since mamoriamohit may take it quite personally even though there is a kernel of useful information in what you're saying.
But paying attention to people when you give them something is very important. People are different. You may cringe at poems, but I love them. I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife. We talked about getting married on our first date it went so well.
So I guess what I'm also trying to get at here is that your contribution of your opinion to the conversation may be valid, but it's more kind if it's not so universal as to be judgemental, since mamoriamohit may take it quite personally even though there is a kernel of useful information in what you're saying.
> I brought one that someone else wrote for me on my first date with my now wife.
Why would you bring a poem someone wrote you to a first date?
Why would you bring a poem someone wrote you to a first date?
It's kinda a long story, but there is a semi-well known poet in Toronto that writes poetry for hire and she works near a park that we both walk by with some frequency.
I described how I felt about the person I was about to go on a date with, but told the poet not to write directly about my date, but to use it as inspiration for a story of some kind.
I can't really describe how I knew it would go over well, but I knew it would. I try to tailor gifts to the person I'm dating, and I wasn't the type to usually bring something to a first date, but we had a ton of chemistry and I wanted to show how interested I was.
I described how I felt about the person I was about to go on a date with, but told the poet not to write directly about my date, but to use it as inspiration for a story of some kind.
I can't really describe how I knew it would go over well, but I knew it would. I try to tailor gifts to the person I'm dating, and I wasn't the type to usually bring something to a first date, but we had a ton of chemistry and I wanted to show how interested I was.
Yeah that sounds overwhelming. They better be consistently good poems too if you're pulling that move!
Imagine having to keep to yourself that you're not really into poems but your partner is doing this. It'd be heartbreaking to piss in those cheerios but how long could you keep it up?
Personally I'd have had to say enough with the poems already at day 6 or so
Imagine having to keep to yourself that you're not really into poems but your partner is doing this. It'd be heartbreaking to piss in those cheerios but how long could you keep it up?
Personally I'd have had to say enough with the poems already at day 6 or so
If you read what the OP wrote;
"I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her."
2 years is a lot more than 400 days. Maybe the relationship failed because they stopped.
"I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her."
2 years is a lot more than 400 days. Maybe the relationship failed because they stopped.
Read the comment again. The recipient clearly didn't like the poems, and yet he still wrote four hundred of them.
> In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt.
No healthy relationship has one partner who cares so little about the other's feelings that they do something 400 times without finding out if it's welcome or not.
> In fact, I was told by her that these notes put her in guilt.
No healthy relationship has one partner who cares so little about the other's feelings that they do something 400 times without finding out if it's welcome or not.
Or perhaps they started on day 330.
> have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her
I'm sure this was a painful lesson to learn, but I hope you took the right thing away from it.
No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems. It makes it seem like the subject of the poems is being put on a pedestal and idealized, not perceived as a real person with flaws.
It comes across as obsessive and, perhaps, insincere -- how can someone have 400 poems' worth of feelings for someone they've known for less than 2 years? And if they don't have those sincere feelings, what are they trying to accomplish?
Read a little bit about "love bombing" (not because I think you love-bombed anyone, but because it might help you understand how the recipient of this behavior might feel about it).
I'm sure this was a painful lesson to learn, but I hope you took the right thing away from it.
No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems. It makes it seem like the subject of the poems is being put on a pedestal and idealized, not perceived as a real person with flaws.
It comes across as obsessive and, perhaps, insincere -- how can someone have 400 poems' worth of feelings for someone they've known for less than 2 years? And if they don't have those sincere feelings, what are they trying to accomplish?
Read a little bit about "love bombing" (not because I think you love-bombed anyone, but because it might help you understand how the recipient of this behavior might feel about it).
> No healthy relationship is going to include 400 daily poems.
A bold and absolutist claim. The GPs relationship was clearly not healthy, but the idea that no healthy relationship could exist where there is a daily poem is kinda ridiculous?
A bold and absolutist claim. The GPs relationship was clearly not healthy, but the idea that no healthy relationship could exist where there is a daily poem is kinda ridiculous?
It's a pretty good first order approximation.
If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop. If it's going well, then fair enough, you do you.
If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop. If it's going well, then fair enough, you do you.
> If you've written 400 daily poems and it doesn't seem to be having a positive effect, then it's certainly time to stop.
I'd probably say stop at around 7 if not positive, because then it is just a weird week long gimmick...
I'd probably say stop at around 7 if not positive, because then it is just a weird week long gimmick...
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I agree with this. It made me think about the Adam Sandler movie where he finds out his lover suffers from a condition where she can't retain new memories, and at the end of the movie the conflict is solved by them going to live on a boat and him re-seducting her every day for the rest of their lives.
Watching it as a kid made me think it was a heartwarming ending to the movie, but the older I get the creepier it gets. It is essentially a hostage situation if you think about it.
Anyways, not saying this is what OP did, but I guess it's an example of how seemingly sweet and well intentioned actions can also be overbearing. I can't say I would enjoy having someone write me poems for 400 days straight.
Watching it as a kid made me think it was a heartwarming ending to the movie, but the older I get the creepier it gets. It is essentially a hostage situation if you think about it.
Anyways, not saying this is what OP did, but I guess it's an example of how seemingly sweet and well intentioned actions can also be overbearing. I can't say I would enjoy having someone write me poems for 400 days straight.
Obviously it's not quite the same thing, but reminds me of an old neighbour we had.
She used to love baking, and would bring round cakes/pastries/bread for us all the time.
It was really nice at first, but also made us feel very awkward/bad that we didn't reciprocate (neither of us really cook much), even though we'd never asked for the cakes.
Eventually we had to ask her to stop, since we just didn't want to eat that much unhealthy food. She took it as a bit of an insult, and ended up being a lot colder to us after that.
It was a shame, but I'm not sure what else we could have done - she was giving us something unasked for (which we felt burdened by, even though she said she never expected anything in return), and got upset when we asked her to stop.
She used to love baking, and would bring round cakes/pastries/bread for us all the time.
It was really nice at first, but also made us feel very awkward/bad that we didn't reciprocate (neither of us really cook much), even though we'd never asked for the cakes.
Eventually we had to ask her to stop, since we just didn't want to eat that much unhealthy food. She took it as a bit of an insult, and ended up being a lot colder to us after that.
It was a shame, but I'm not sure what else we could have done - she was giving us something unasked for (which we felt burdened by, even though she said she never expected anything in return), and got upset when we asked her to stop.
Debts are what bind neighbors and communities together. You felt bad because you were in debt to her giving but didn't want to have a relationship with that person by reciprocating. Often, the worst thing you can do in relationships is to get out of debt. Debts are a reason for people to see each other. By telling that person to 'stop baking', you told them essentially 'i don't want to have a relationship with you'. (see Debt, the first 500 years by David Graeber)
Great book. Another good one is Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein, which covers some of the same ground, in terms of understanding the dynamics that tie together people and communities, ensuring fairness and an appropriate level of redistribution, but with needing a formal money system or taxation. (Potlatching, for example...)
Looking back at it, I have plenty of good relationships that don't involve debts, maybe because I've avoided any that did.
I've always been very uncomfortable about being in debt to anyone for anything unasked for, that just seems manipulative to me.
I've not read David Graber's book though, added to my (evergrowing...) reading list, thanks.
I've always been very uncomfortable about being in debt to anyone for anything unasked for, that just seems manipulative to me.
I've not read David Graber's book though, added to my (evergrowing...) reading list, thanks.
I learned about this from my mom. She’s a giver, but to the point where we don’t want the stuff.
We appreciated the thought, but she would bring so many toys for our daughter it was overwhelming and we didn’t Have that much space.
It was clearly more for my mom than for us, she just likes to give.
So I reciprocated by saying thanks and promptly throwing/donating something older. This allowed my mom to keep giving and us to not have the clutter.
I’m glad to confirm what I already knew by your story. It would have hurt her and damaged our relationship if I would have asked her to stop.
We appreciated the thought, but she would bring so many toys for our daughter it was overwhelming and we didn’t Have that much space.
It was clearly more for my mom than for us, she just likes to give.
So I reciprocated by saying thanks and promptly throwing/donating something older. This allowed my mom to keep giving and us to not have the clutter.
I’m glad to confirm what I already knew by your story. It would have hurt her and damaged our relationship if I would have asked her to stop.
My mother likes to give cheap things found in op shops. Definitely more about her than the recipient: the satisfaction of a bargain and seeing things be continued to be used. I think it’s also a subtle way to try to control others’ spending because … hey, you don’t need a new X anymore.
Anyway, after seeing the relationship futility of resisting the unwanted gifts too persistently, I now just give some approximation of a warm thank-you, then donate the items to a charity shop.
Cycle of life.
Anyway, after seeing the relationship futility of resisting the unwanted gifts too persistently, I now just give some approximation of a warm thank-you, then donate the items to a charity shop.
Cycle of life.
The baking thing is real. People think they're helping you by loading you down with carbs and sugar. It's like someone buying you drinks - no, asking you to drink another round of his homebrewed beer - when you've already had enough. Upon reflection here, I think the best thing to do is probably to say "great, I'll eat this later" and feed it to the wild beasts.
This is called a “covert contract”. It’s perhaps the key part of “nice” behaviour that is everything but - you can’t tie someone up in a “deal” that they never agreed to. Even worse, punishing someone else for not keeping up their side of the non-negotiated “deal”
From the article...
> Though, I’ve set that expectation, and she holds me accountable to it, so I do it very often.
This is a shared ritual, which I feel is powerful in any type of relationship. You have rituals at work and with your friends. These rituals are an ingredient in the glue which give relationships meaning.
They need that shared sense of importance to work though. Other parts of the relationship should be healthy. Good communication is a must. Did she tell you that the notes made her feel guilty during this 400 day stretch? If not, then maybe communication was off.
> Though, I’ve set that expectation, and she holds me accountable to it, so I do it very often.
This is a shared ritual, which I feel is powerful in any type of relationship. You have rituals at work and with your friends. These rituals are an ingredient in the glue which give relationships meaning.
They need that shared sense of importance to work though. Other parts of the relationship should be healthy. Good communication is a must. Did she tell you that the notes made her feel guilty during this 400 day stretch? If not, then maybe communication was off.
I'm sorry for what you went through. When one person is giving more that the other relationships can be a real struggle. I've been there I gave 110% and it scared someone off. The entire thing felt awful.
Some years later I found my wife and she responds very differently. She would love a note every day. Any attention I give her is welcomed.
I hope things work out for you.
Some years later I found my wife and she responds very differently. She would love a note every day. Any attention I give her is welcomed.
I hope things work out for you.
> I was in a relationship for 2 years and have written a poem every day for 400 days straight to her.
While there may be some people like you enjoying maxed up romantic relationships I would run away in no time from a partner just trying to hard. Imagine getting home everyday to be greeted with a "gift of a day", 10 bullet points in refined calligraphy how much he/she loves me, new scent, yet another laborious make up etc.
Most of us will never be able to match that, be it because of no time/energy or a simple "let me rest after work, read a book/go for a walk". Relationship imho is not an attempt to create a Siamese twins in a mental space. Satisfy the needs of your partner, top it with extra stuff, but do not try to kill it drowning him/her in a waterfall of attention, gifts, questions about everything, etc.
While there may be some people like you enjoying maxed up romantic relationships I would run away in no time from a partner just trying to hard. Imagine getting home everyday to be greeted with a "gift of a day", 10 bullet points in refined calligraphy how much he/she loves me, new scent, yet another laborious make up etc.
Most of us will never be able to match that, be it because of no time/energy or a simple "let me rest after work, read a book/go for a walk". Relationship imho is not an attempt to create a Siamese twins in a mental space. Satisfy the needs of your partner, top it with extra stuff, but do not try to kill it drowning him/her in a waterfall of attention, gifts, questions about everything, etc.
Most of us will never be able to match that
this is part of the problem though. the expectation that the contributions to our relationship should somehow be equal. yes, both partners should contribute something, and it is possible that one (or both) of the partners are not contributing enough, but wanting to limit my partners contributions because i can't keep up is a problem in itself. the proper response is to talk about it, to share how these poems or whatever it is, make you feel. and come to an understanding that both can work with. the most important thing to do is to listen what the partner has to say, and how they feel. as with all these things, it comes down to communication.
this is part of the problem though. the expectation that the contributions to our relationship should somehow be equal. yes, both partners should contribute something, and it is possible that one (or both) of the partners are not contributing enough, but wanting to limit my partners contributions because i can't keep up is a problem in itself. the proper response is to talk about it, to share how these poems or whatever it is, make you feel. and come to an understanding that both can work with. the most important thing to do is to listen what the partner has to say, and how they feel. as with all these things, it comes down to communication.
In order for a relationship to remain healthy, the communication has to be bi-directional (and both parties need to feel that it is bi-directional). Writing a poem to your partner every day can be fine; if it makes your partner feel like it drowns out or undermines their signals to you, it's insensitive.
If you have an issue with your communication to your partner (either in not producing it consistently or not feeling that it's received consistently), changing it up to something you can generate (and/or your partner can receive in the intended spirit), building a habit that changes up your communication can help. On the other hand, if that habit makes your partner feel inundated, overwhelmed, or drowns out their communication to you, it can make things worse.
If you have an issue with your communication to your partner (either in not producing it consistently or not feeling that it's received consistently), changing it up to something you can generate (and/or your partner can receive in the intended spirit), building a habit that changes up your communication can help. On the other hand, if that habit makes your partner feel inundated, overwhelmed, or drowns out their communication to you, it can make things worse.
> Just wanted to add a bit of more context.
This isn't really context it's more a subjective and singular viewpoint from somebody who's relationship failed and perhaps was always going to fail regardless of the poems.
Not trying to be horrible here...just pointing out that this is not context.
This isn't really context it's more a subjective and singular viewpoint from somebody who's relationship failed and perhaps was always going to fail regardless of the poems.
Not trying to be horrible here...just pointing out that this is not context.
Writing a poem is a bit different than the writing OP doing which is communicating in general about everything and everyone.
I don't want to dunk on the act of writing poems which is perfectly fine, but that's the creation of art. If you look at how he structures his communication, there are active day-to-day issues/problems being addressed that if left unresolved prevent the appreciation of something like a poem.
And as everyone else said, sometimes relationships don't work out and you did your best.
I don't want to dunk on the act of writing poems which is perfectly fine, but that's the creation of art. If you look at how he structures his communication, there are active day-to-day issues/problems being addressed that if left unresolved prevent the appreciation of something like a poem.
And as everyone else said, sometimes relationships don't work out and you did your best.
[deleted]
Regardless of outcomes, your faithfulness is still virtuous. Living completely in inner truth is what you want to aim for. Sometimes that means persevering in truth over a period of time. When it doesn't work out, you have trained yourself to be faithful. The most important thing is probaly that whatever you are doing is truth for you, but without dependency on the other. There is no dependency when reciprocation is not necessary in order for you to feel loved by the simple act of doing what is true for you. I've met a person with an imaginary relationship and it keeps him focused on his creative output. It's very important to be able to maximise creative output (perhaps through your muse?) and to not overrationalise. That is because we live in the age of DALLE and artificial imagination, and you need all the entropy you can get!
Sure but if your problem is that you don’t think about your spouse enough, this might help. There’s a lot of reasons relationships fail, this seems to try to address one or more ways it can fail.
I feel the poems are more like gesture, as you say, than communication.
And yes, 400 could easily slip into the category of demonstration, that may be bothersome for the receiving end.
Pure kind words in natural form may be better.
And yes, 400 could easily slip into the category of demonstration, that may be bothersome for the receiving end.
Pure kind words in natural form may be better.
Now you can go and turn them into a poetry book with artwork from Dall E. Sort of recycling effort.
this is probably related to the effect of different ways we perceive love. see the five love languages. we need to talk to our partners about that and try things to find out what makes them feel our love. and also tell them how we receive them.
The love languages concept is pseudoscience, just like the MBTI.
I wouldn't say it's pseudoscience, it's not science at all. It's just a list of five different things which different people may value more or less.
Understanding your partner's values may not be scientific, but it is a good idea.
Understanding your partner's values may not be scientific, but it is a good idea.
I think it's well understood at this point that it's pretty much about giving people some shared language to talk about needs in a relationship. However, even with that, there's some contention— "words of affirmation" specifically seems to get a lot of heat.
Like, yes it's valuable to be aware of your partner and use those observations to uplift them, but it can also swing into some pretty unhealthy territory too ("when you raised that issue with me, I felt criticized, and then my words of affirmation need wasn't met any more; if you love me, you need to demonstrate that by not raising things with me") or even becoming a demand for unrealistic, toxic positivity ("I need you to be positive about/to me no matter what; I will be dependent on you for my emotional well-being, and if you're ever not positive to me, I'll become sullen and depressed and it will be your fault").
So yeah, love languages can be helpful as a starting point, but you still need guardrails in place (for example, a professional counselor) to make sure it doesn't get used in a manipulative, unhealthy, or unfair way.
Like, yes it's valuable to be aware of your partner and use those observations to uplift them, but it can also swing into some pretty unhealthy territory too ("when you raised that issue with me, I felt criticized, and then my words of affirmation need wasn't met any more; if you love me, you need to demonstrate that by not raising things with me") or even becoming a demand for unrealistic, toxic positivity ("I need you to be positive about/to me no matter what; I will be dependent on you for my emotional well-being, and if you're ever not positive to me, I'll become sullen and depressed and it will be your fault").
So yeah, love languages can be helpful as a starting point, but you still need guardrails in place (for example, a professional counselor) to make sure it doesn't get used in a manipulative, unhealthy, or unfair way.
If you say stuff like "people communicate and reciprocate love differently", then it's neither science nor pseudoscience.
If you say stuff like "these are the five specific love languages and everyone has two", that's either science or pseudoscience, and I'll give you two guesses how rigorously tested the hypothesis is.
Can't write a best-seller framed like the first one, though! People eat scientism up.
If you say stuff like "these are the five specific love languages and everyone has two", that's either science or pseudoscience, and I'll give you two guesses how rigorously tested the hypothesis is.
Can't write a best-seller framed like the first one, though! People eat scientism up.
just like MBTI this is not an absolute where these types define your personality and predict your behavior that you can't escape. that of course is nonsense. but both are useful to get a better understanding about yourself, your partner and your relationship.
talking about these things with your partner works, and that helps to improve your relationship. i can confirm that from my personal experience.
talking about these things with your partner works, and that helps to improve your relationship. i can confirm that from my personal experience.
> love languages concept is pseudoscience
Love is not a science.
Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of “love languages”.
Love is not a science.
Disclaimer: This is not an endorsement of “love languages”.
love languages are bullshit, but it is useful to know if someone doesn't like physical touch
but don't worry, I play along with that, myers briggs, astrology, angel numbers, ambiguous western spirituality, and I'm a great listener (because I'm too dumbfounded to know what to say and I don't mind being an enabler, for sex)
unlike the others, its only the myers briggs people that take their belief system seriously, since it was probably used on their job at the teambuilding retreat and in academia, but increasingly the love language people have a blind spot for it too
everyone else can just laugh about their consequence-free religions
but don't worry, I play along with that, myers briggs, astrology, angel numbers, ambiguous western spirituality, and I'm a great listener (because I'm too dumbfounded to know what to say and I don't mind being an enabler, for sex)
unlike the others, its only the myers briggs people that take their belief system seriously, since it was probably used on their job at the teambuilding retreat and in academia, but increasingly the love language people have a blind spot for it too
everyone else can just laugh about their consequence-free religions
it is possible to take these things to seriously. i didn't read the five love languages book end to end. it was enough for me to know that there are different ways to express love and that we have different preferences in what ways we notice love from others. that is the core that matters here, and is what helped me understand our relationship better.
same for MBTI. i don't know what specific MBTI type i am supposed to be, and i don't really care, but understanding the different aspects that MBTI is based on does help me understand myself better and let's me explain for example why i enjoy company some times and not at other times.
there used to be a time when astrology and astronomy where the same thing. astrology is pure nonsense, but the astronomy it is based on is not. in the same way MBTI may be nonsense, but the aspects it is based on probably are not.
to be a great listener it takes a few things, to listen, to give positive feedback and to help the other person work out what they want to say. listening itself makes up the biggest part. pretending to be a great listener may work in the short term, but someone will eventually figure out that you don't actually care about what they say.
same for MBTI. i don't know what specific MBTI type i am supposed to be, and i don't really care, but understanding the different aspects that MBTI is based on does help me understand myself better and let's me explain for example why i enjoy company some times and not at other times.
there used to be a time when astrology and astronomy where the same thing. astrology is pure nonsense, but the astronomy it is based on is not. in the same way MBTI may be nonsense, but the aspects it is based on probably are not.
to be a great listener it takes a few things, to listen, to give positive feedback and to help the other person work out what they want to say. listening itself makes up the biggest part. pretending to be a great listener may work in the short term, but someone will eventually figure out that you don't actually care about what they say.
you might be pleased then to know that the same introspective possibilities are available in astrology, and many people get that from it. It goes much deeper than a procedurally generated daily horoscope and judging someone for the month they were born in.
Guess I listen better than you might have gathered from what I wrote, I’m pretty quick on the improv and with astrology pretty much all you have to do is not call it bullshit and people are surprised and enamored that you didnt! Because they expect you (or guys) to.
regarding love languages, I’m glad you got something out of it. I gather that most people just take an online quiz or just read the categories and choose one or three. The quiz being on the website of the book author if I recall correctly.
Guess I listen better than you might have gathered from what I wrote, I’m pretty quick on the improv and with astrology pretty much all you have to do is not call it bullshit and people are surprised and enamored that you didnt! Because they expect you (or guys) to.
regarding love languages, I’m glad you got something out of it. I gather that most people just take an online quiz or just read the categories and choose one or three. The quiz being on the website of the book author if I recall correctly.
fair point on judging your listening skills. what put me off was that you gave the impression of listening with an ulterior motive. it sounded like you are not listening because you truly care about their well being but only because it enables you to get closer to them. that feels like taking advantage of their vulnerability
everything can be used as a starting point for introspection. as long as the focus is on the introspection, that is fine, but at least things like extrovert and introvert are based on observable human behavior, but ideas drawn from astrology are divination that is completely unrelated to human qualities or experiences. anyone trying to claim more than that is either deluded or a fraud. people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
or in other words i am open to be proven wrong when it comes to character types. if someone can come up with a better explanation that completely eliminates those types, i'll be interested. but i don't for my life believe that there is any repeatable observable benefit from applying astrology, that can not also be explained as pure coincidence.
everything can be used as a starting point for introspection. as long as the focus is on the introspection, that is fine, but at least things like extrovert and introvert are based on observable human behavior, but ideas drawn from astrology are divination that is completely unrelated to human qualities or experiences. anyone trying to claim more than that is either deluded or a fraud. people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
or in other words i am open to be proven wrong when it comes to character types. if someone can come up with a better explanation that completely eliminates those types, i'll be interested. but i don't for my life believe that there is any repeatable observable benefit from applying astrology, that can not also be explained as pure coincidence.
> it sounded like you are not listening because you truly care about their well being but only because it enables you to get closer to them
> people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
The only problem with me going along with these belief systems, but astrology in particular, is that its usually the tip of the iceberg of other forms of susceptibility and unsubstantiated magic, and also damage.
but if I was choosing between the MBTI person that takes themselves seriously because an MBA and their companies’ executive uses it, and the carefree astrology person that expects to be criticized, I would chose the astrology person.
so its a little column A, a little column B
people are damaged and susceptible, they replace one religion with another to “find themselves”
I’m just there
> people taking astrology seriously are a red flag for me. i would not want them as friends even, let alone a partner.
The only problem with me going along with these belief systems, but astrology in particular, is that its usually the tip of the iceberg of other forms of susceptibility and unsubstantiated magic, and also damage.
but if I was choosing between the MBTI person that takes themselves seriously because an MBA and their companies’ executive uses it, and the carefree astrology person that expects to be criticized, I would chose the astrology person.
so its a little column A, a little column B
people are damaged and susceptible, they replace one religion with another to “find themselves”
I’m just there
Since we're being party poopers, it's worth noting that if your relationship fails it is, by definition, because you are unattractive to your partner. If that's the case, then yes attention from an unattractive person is a major turn-off. That's hardly a great revelation, but even so that kind of common sense appears to be sorely lacking amongst many persons.
attraction is created through interaction. but what attracts is different for every person, and if i am attracted to someone, i need to find out what makes me attractive to them. it's not just looks or first impressions. those help to get the foot in the door, but even an initially unattractive person can become attractive as you get to know them.
could the downvoters please explain why? i am really interested, do you not believe that getting to know someone can make them more attractive? do you not believe that it is possible to misjudge someone on their first impression? what else am i missing that makes you disagree with me?
You aren't wrong, the downvote are a defense mechanism.
People can blame their inability to have a relationship on outside factors (age/genetic makeup) if physical attractiveness was set in stone and the most important thing. It's a worldview where they don't have to look at their personality or behavior critically, so its an incredibly appealing worldview to some.
People can blame their inability to have a relationship on outside factors (age/genetic makeup) if physical attractiveness was set in stone and the most important thing. It's a worldview where they don't have to look at their personality or behavior critically, so its an incredibly appealing worldview to some.
that's a good point, and sadly apps like tinder just reinforce that
I didn't downvote, but its possible the "get a foot in the door" is coming across more coercive than you intended. It brings to mind pushy salesmen.
I think your statement is fine, if the reader interprets your statement charitably, but it could be misread.
Just a guess!
I think your statement is fine, if the reader interprets your statement charitably, but it could be misread.
Just a guess!
I think your use of the word attractive is wrongheaded, but if I set that aside your logic is also self contradictory. Lack of attention can cause lack of attraction, and thus attention from an “unattractive” person can cause attraction.
I think they are using the term "attraction" explicitly as a force to draw them together. If they fell apart, it was due to a lack of attraction.It isn't so much attention from an "unattractive" person can cause attraction - this appears to be very rare, but you are sure to not be attracted to anybody that you give no attention. Best bet is to first change your attractivity to your target (may or may not be possible) and then change the attention.
csomar(1)
My wife and I write an annual letter to one another. They are truly magical and they are great to read back, often bringing us to tears and capturing the struggles of raising children, moving continents etc. They unleash memories when read.
We have ten years of them and they are truly amazing and I recommend it as a slightly less involved shared (two way) ritual .
Author here - We do that too! Typically we'll write a letter for the other person for their birthday. It's a much more reflective letter (whereas the daily note is more "what's going on right now"). Great tip.
To be honest, I think of something like this as far more intimate and thoughtful than writing a letter once a day. Sure, they're apples and oranges. But taking the time to write a letter each year forces you to think about the year in an anniversarial lens; the meaningful moments, the memories, the struggles, the victories, the journeys.
I do this as well with my wife of 10 years, although it's not something we agreed upon -- it just ends up happening in lieu of or in addition to a birthday/anniversary/valentine/whatever gift. Agreed on all points.
I still have all the letters that me and my partner wrote each other when we started dating. They're always nice to read again.
I love this idea, thanks for sharing it.
For anyone skimming the comments first, I found the author's outline to be the most interesting segment (though I recommend reading the essay in full):
"Here’s a general outline of what I write:
"Gratitude (for her, her hard work, her amazing looks, etc.)
"What I’m working on today.
"What I’m working towards (goals, deadlines, etc.)
"Anything I’m excited about.
"Anything that’s bothering me (stress, anxiety, pessimism, etc.)
"Ideas that I have (parenting, fixing the home, work related, etc.)
"Transactional stuff (finances, things I need to take care of, stuff I need to remember, etc.)
"Questions (are there any events coming up, are we doing a date night this week, etc.)
"Gratitude (for the life we have, the things we have, the time we have, the kids we have, etc.)
"I don’t write every section every day, but those are the general categories I usually fall into. The note usually takes me just shy of a half-hour if I’m not distracted."
The notes are quite thoughtful: many of these points sound sweet, and several of the prompts could still work for people who aren't in a relationship. The appreciation shown, and the self-reflection, likely both strengthen the relationship.
"Here’s a general outline of what I write:
"Gratitude (for her, her hard work, her amazing looks, etc.)
"What I’m working on today.
"What I’m working towards (goals, deadlines, etc.)
"Anything I’m excited about.
"Anything that’s bothering me (stress, anxiety, pessimism, etc.)
"Ideas that I have (parenting, fixing the home, work related, etc.)
"Transactional stuff (finances, things I need to take care of, stuff I need to remember, etc.)
"Questions (are there any events coming up, are we doing a date night this week, etc.)
"Gratitude (for the life we have, the things we have, the time we have, the kids we have, etc.)
"I don’t write every section every day, but those are the general categories I usually fall into. The note usually takes me just shy of a half-hour if I’m not distracted."
The notes are quite thoughtful: many of these points sound sweet, and several of the prompts could still work for people who aren't in a relationship. The appreciation shown, and the self-reflection, likely both strengthen the relationship.
some of that is what i write for myself in my journal. some times i share parts of my journal, or i share something with my partner that then gets added into the journal...
I am going to get a lot of flak for this. But the more I read things like these, the more I feel marriage is not for everyone and society has a whole should stop gushing down this concept to next generation.
Personally I feel, If you have to write a note to your spouse everyday to "save your marriage", then you probably didnt have one to begin with.
Marriage takes work, lots of work. The reward in my experience is totally worth it. You have to lay down part of your life for the new life that you experience with your spouse and children. The individual you once were is now part of a family and no longer exists as an individual. You serve your family and they serve you back. For me the amount I give of myself is much less than I receive back from the marriage / family. I would argue the amount everyone involved receives is more than the sum total they put in.
If writing a note each day is too much work for you, then the daily sacrifices of being in a loving marriage may be too much for you. If that is the case you might want to think about what you're giving up and why. If you are happy with the exchange then great but I think many don't know how great it can be.
If writing a note each day is too much work for you, then the daily sacrifices of being in a loving marriage may be too much for you. If that is the case you might want to think about what you're giving up and why. If you are happy with the exchange then great but I think many don't know how great it can be.
A note is a tool. It works great if like op there's little overlap between spouses routines, so they can still feel each other presence.
It's not what's going to save marriages on it's own, because it is useful in a specific environment.
When I'm away for work, I always make time to call family morning and evening, so we can keep up with our wake up togheter and spend evening togheter kinda routine. It is both specific to the situation, the family and the context. It'd be silly to call home when I'm home, as it'd be silly to say that this will save someone else marriage.
Heck, marriage doesn't even mean the same thing to different people or has the same meaning across cultures or even within the same culture across time!
Normative approaches to marriage are almost always doomed to fail precisely because of this, and that's also why counseling is largely a personalized process/experience.
It's not what's going to save marriages on it's own, because it is useful in a specific environment.
When I'm away for work, I always make time to call family morning and evening, so we can keep up with our wake up togheter and spend evening togheter kinda routine. It is both specific to the situation, the family and the context. It'd be silly to call home when I'm home, as it'd be silly to say that this will save someone else marriage.
Heck, marriage doesn't even mean the same thing to different people or has the same meaning across cultures or even within the same culture across time!
Normative approaches to marriage are almost always doomed to fail precisely because of this, and that's also why counseling is largely a personalized process/experience.
> The reward in my experience is totally worth it.
What is the reward?
What is the reward?
Someone will consistently be there to care very much about you. Friends are more fickle (people change and move away), and your parents won't be there forever. Siblings can also move away, too. It's nice to have at least one person you can trust in the world.
You've never had a best friend?
Companionship.
Eh, it doesn’t feel like work for me. I really enjoy my partner, she enjoys me, and I don’t think we have to do very much “work” to maintain that.
If I started writing literal daily notes to my wife, she’d be very concerned something was wrong. Then she’d ask why I’m wasting my time writing a note when I could have done… literally annoying else more productive lol
If I started writing literal daily notes to my wife, she’d be very concerned something was wrong. Then she’d ask why I’m wasting my time writing a note when I could have done… literally annoying else more productive lol
To me this sounds similar to the old saying "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life"
I've found this to simply mean that you enjoy the work you put in. Gamers can spend hours getting good at a game. Few would call it practice, they'd call it play. However, whatever you call it you need it to get good.
Whatever that thing is that you put into a relationship, it's needed.
I've found this to simply mean that you enjoy the work you put in. Gamers can spend hours getting good at a game. Few would call it practice, they'd call it play. However, whatever you call it you need it to get good.
Whatever that thing is that you put into a relationship, it's needed.
> Eh, it doesn’t feel like work for me. I really enjoy my partner, she enjoys me, and I don’t think we have to do very much “work” to maintain that.
For some people it isn't until it is. There are many things that can break a great relationship. Routine, lack of common projects, financial difficulties, personal struggle of one or both.
For some people it isn't until it is. There are many things that can break a great relationship. Routine, lack of common projects, financial difficulties, personal struggle of one or both.
+1 here because my marriage is amazing but we do get stuck in routines, we have no common interests really except very small things, both have struggled with personal loss/grief and are currently experiencing financial difficulty.
It has been 16 years and somehow head to pillow every night still brings a smile to my face for this amazing woman being the love of my life.
It has been 16 years and somehow head to pillow every night still brings a smile to my face for this amazing woman being the love of my life.
Not everyone gets so lucky. Some people have to settle for a partner they can love but is not really their ideal match.
This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do.
Because the alternative is to just be single and die alone surrounded by no one, childless in some nursing home where nurses increasingly don’t give a fuck about you the closer you are to death.
Some people will argue being single isn’t so bad. But for a person whose goal it is to be married and share life with someone it can be a fate worse than death. And the longer it takes to get married the more of your life you are living without sharing experiences with anyone that matters to you.
This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do.
Because the alternative is to just be single and die alone surrounded by no one, childless in some nursing home where nurses increasingly don’t give a fuck about you the closer you are to death.
Some people will argue being single isn’t so bad. But for a person whose goal it is to be married and share life with someone it can be a fate worse than death. And the longer it takes to get married the more of your life you are living without sharing experiences with anyone that matters to you.
> Not everyone gets so lucky. Some people have to settle for a partner they can love but is not really their ideal match.
> This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do
If this is actually your personal experience, could you share more of it?
I've always ended up dating women who absolutely love me but who I am somewhat ambivalent to after a few weeks. Most of life already feels like work to me, was hoping a romantic relationship wouldn't. But I've thought often of throwing in the towel and settling for the next sane one even if I'm bored. Because wife + kids sounds long term better than fun uncle who ultimately dies alone.
> This is where it takes work. You have to accept the fact every day this is your partner, you have to wrestle with thoughts of perhaps coming across an actual ideal partner some day. You have to learn to love your partner, and do things to make them happy, not necessarily things you want to do
If this is actually your personal experience, could you share more of it?
I've always ended up dating women who absolutely love me but who I am somewhat ambivalent to after a few weeks. Most of life already feels like work to me, was hoping a romantic relationship wouldn't. But I've thought often of throwing in the towel and settling for the next sane one even if I'm bored. Because wife + kids sounds long term better than fun uncle who ultimately dies alone.
My advice is date a lot of women, to get an idea of what you like. Then after that, the next best one you find that comes closest to what you like, marry that one and settle down. Forget about finding anyone better, they may be out there, but you don’t have the time and your lives may not be compatible.
Sounds similar to this https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/05/15/312537965/h...
for starters i think it helps to accept that the ideal partner doesn't exist. everyone has flaws on one way or another. the problem is that when you meet that seemingly ideal person some day, that person only looks ideal because you haven't seen their bad sides yet. i think it really helps to keep that in mind. better to deal with the devil you know, than starting over with an unknown.
for your problem, i would want to look closely what it is that makes you feel ambivalent after a few weeks. try giving it more time to see if you still feel like that. get to know each other better, plan your potential future life together to get an understanding what each of you want from a relationship. love alone is not enough.
for your problem, i would want to look closely what it is that makes you feel ambivalent after a few weeks. try giving it more time to see if you still feel like that. get to know each other better, plan your potential future life together to get an understanding what each of you want from a relationship. love alone is not enough.
I think my ambivalence comes from a lack of excitement while just casually socializing. I have plenty of best friends who are hilarious and fascinating, that by comparison I can feel quite empty with a woman who is otherwise quite a catch. I'm trying to give the current one more time because maybe it's a function of how familiar we are with eachother and the experiences we've shared. Romantic relationships as an adult can feel so contrived!
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from my experience it definitely makes a difference how well we knew each other, whether it was easy to just hang out. when you don't know each other, there is a lot of insecurity as to how to interact, and what the other will allow or expect or find uncomfortable. i guess most people in that situation will be cautious as to not appear to try to move to quickly, and that may lead to the experience you had.
what i found helpful is to not focus on romantic dates but join group activities where there is no pressure to interact directly. your friends and her friends or even some other group that you both join for some activity. there is still plenty of opportunity to get to know each other that way, because you will see how each of you act around other people.
what i found helpful is to not focus on romantic dates but join group activities where there is no pressure to interact directly. your friends and her friends or even some other group that you both join for some activity. there is still plenty of opportunity to get to know each other that way, because you will see how each of you act around other people.
Thanks, this is great advice. Something I've been trying to do, too.
We are a pathetic, self centered species.
It is nice, I guess you are fortunate to have a relationship that basically maintains itself. For most people, proper communication and keeping a commitment to open up emotionally when you need to is work.
On the other hand, my gf would love it.
Modern generations have been influenced by the Romantics, who, amongst other things, put forward the idea that self-sacrificing marriage is actually less noble than purely passionate love. This evolved into the notion that a marriage requires consistent passion, and that if you don't have it, something is wrong.
But it turns out that marriage is really just a partnership and relationship, and all different kinds of people have different styles and interpretations of what that is and how it works for them. Some people need a lot of passion, some people need a lot of stability, some may need both, or neither.
But there is definitely something to the notion that good relationships don't come easy. People are all flawed in different ways, and sometimes people need help to work through those flaws in order to have successful relationships. Plus, a marriage may involve some long term expensive investments, like a mortgage, pets, children. So "saving your marriage" might actually be quite a rational and emotionally intelligent act, if all partners are amenable to it. Best-case scenario: you end up with a long-term loving partnership and a wonderful life; worst-case, you don't. Seems like it's worth saving?
But it turns out that marriage is really just a partnership and relationship, and all different kinds of people have different styles and interpretations of what that is and how it works for them. Some people need a lot of passion, some people need a lot of stability, some may need both, or neither.
But there is definitely something to the notion that good relationships don't come easy. People are all flawed in different ways, and sometimes people need help to work through those flaws in order to have successful relationships. Plus, a marriage may involve some long term expensive investments, like a mortgage, pets, children. So "saving your marriage" might actually be quite a rational and emotionally intelligent act, if all partners are amenable to it. Best-case scenario: you end up with a long-term loving partnership and a wonderful life; worst-case, you don't. Seems like it's worth saving?
i think you're missing the point. it's not that you have to write a note to your spouse to save your marriage. the act of writing forces you to think and evaluate, and those acts of reflection, and 'public' appreciation, help keep the small problems from becoming the big problems.
like in karate kid, "wax on, wax off" is not about the wax.
but, you're right, marriage isn't for everyone. but i also don't think TFA is trying to convince everyone to get married.
like in karate kid, "wax on, wax off" is not about the wax.
but, you're right, marriage isn't for everyone. but i also don't think TFA is trying to convince everyone to get married.
I would frame it differently. There seem to be many dysfunctional marriages that are carried by e.g. inertia - and because of this, I do agree that perhaps marriage shouldn't be taken as such an assumption. By the same token, though, those that _do_ choose to engage in marriage should accept the responsibility and the (apparently, I am not married) large amount of effort it takes to make it successful. I'm choosing to look at this tactic as embracing that effort, and striving for an excellent marriage, instead of the "passable" marriage which seems to be the norm today.
Some relationships work by being easy. Some work by being well suited to partner on a big and delicate project, like raising a family.
The person you’d most love to raise a family with (or run a fishing boat with, or whatever), isn’t necessarily the “easy” partner whose super cozy and gets you all the time and never needs you to make a special effort beyond what comes naturally.
But at some point, if it’s what you want to do, you pick a partner for what’s important to you and make good on that choice. Depending on who you are and who you picked, that latter bit of “making good” might benefit from a few contrived gestures and rituals that wouldn’t have been necessary in some other “easy” relationship. But that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong relationship or an unhealthy relationship, it’s just your relationship; and if those things make it better, why wouldn’t you do them?
The person you’d most love to raise a family with (or run a fishing boat with, or whatever), isn’t necessarily the “easy” partner whose super cozy and gets you all the time and never needs you to make a special effort beyond what comes naturally.
But at some point, if it’s what you want to do, you pick a partner for what’s important to you and make good on that choice. Depending on who you are and who you picked, that latter bit of “making good” might benefit from a few contrived gestures and rituals that wouldn’t have been necessary in some other “easy” relationship. But that doesn’t mean it’s the wrong relationship or an unhealthy relationship, it’s just your relationship; and if those things make it better, why wouldn’t you do them?
Completely agree. I’m convinced that the get married have kids, raise them well, they become good workers, if you time it right we are all corporate drones as a happy family - dream is pretty horrible.
I want to work to not have to work anymore. I can’t think about a partner because I’m too dead from work to give someone else the commitment they might deserve. Don’t want kids that sounds like work. Nothing is wrong with me just want to be able to relax without commitment.
I want to work to not have to work anymore. I can’t think about a partner because I’m too dead from work to give someone else the commitment they might deserve. Don’t want kids that sounds like work. Nothing is wrong with me just want to be able to relax without commitment.
having a partner may help you relax, and it may change your attitude to work. i felt pretty dead too from work, then coming home to be alone. when i got married i felt better about working because family life would balance it out and i had something to look forward to while at the office.
Would it be possible to change jobs/companies? Not all work is so draining that you can't have time for yourself, and many respect time boundaries. Hope you can one day make a living in a better environment.
This is very much a fair-weather first-third-of-life perspective.
I see quite a lot of elderly people with health problems. The ones that are completely alone… it’s a pretty wretched existence, frankly. That’s the reality. Not to say all marriages are great obviously, but often even an ex-husband is better than no husband at all.
I see quite a lot of elderly people with health problems. The ones that are completely alone… it’s a pretty wretched existence, frankly. That’s the reality. Not to say all marriages are great obviously, but often even an ex-husband is better than no husband at all.
Agree completely. What I find truly weird is when Gen Z commenters in the west say “society”. Do they really believe marriage is some modern, western, or Christian invention?
When they push forward as social animals with no social support network and things eventually take their toll (age/entropy/etc) they will fall back on someone else’s marriage for help - their parents or siblings.
I say this as a late 30’s person with no marriage. I thought I had one and it didn’t work out unfortunately. Now it’s just me and I am in true shit if really anything remotely severe goes wrong.
When they push forward as social animals with no social support network and things eventually take their toll (age/entropy/etc) they will fall back on someone else’s marriage for help - their parents or siblings.
I say this as a late 30’s person with no marriage. I thought I had one and it didn’t work out unfortunately. Now it’s just me and I am in true shit if really anything remotely severe goes wrong.
>marriage is not for everyone
For quite a long time this was a very obvious and common sense statement. That is literally the traditional view of the Catholic Church on marriage, for example.
Things changed only very recently.
For quite a long time this was a very obvious and common sense statement. That is literally the traditional view of the Catholic Church on marriage, for example.
Things changed only very recently.
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> That is literally the traditional view of the Catholic Church on marriage
Can you elaborate on that? Living as an unmarried couple is not very catholic AFAICT, and when not in a relationship, how should you marry?
Can you elaborate on that? Living as an unmarried couple is not very catholic AFAICT, and when not in a relationship, how should you marry?
Yes, needless to say an unmarried couple is not what I was referring to. I'm saying that for a long time people have known that not everyone is cut out for marriage, and that it has never really been seen as "the only path". I don't understand your other remarks.
So it's "the only path" if in a relationship, with the alternatives being living in sin or not having a relationship. That is really very traditional Catholicism
I think they may be referring to the celibate life of a priest/monk/nun. Maybe.
but then what has changed?
Yeah of course. The alternative to marrying is living a celibate life, which is seen in Catholic Church as preferable to marriage.
Having sex outside of marriage (and, for pleasure only) is of course wrong.
As is using contraceptives; as that moves sex to just pleasure.
Having sex outside of marriage (and, for pleasure only) is of course wrong.
As is using contraceptives; as that moves sex to just pleasure.
Interesting! Sorry if this is getting off topic, but how does the Catholic Church feel about using sex as a method for developing closeness and intimacy with a partner, rather than as purely an avenue for pleasure? I imagine that's still frowned upon?
(Not Catholic, but Orthodox, which is similar enough in this matter.) The idea is more along the lines of saying that just as a human person is both body and soul, and neglect of either leads to death, the Catholic view is that the marriage itself, as well as each "marital act" should be: "Free (voluntary in the fullest sense), Total (complete sharing of self & life with the other), Faithful (to each other, exclusively), and Fruitful (pretty straightforward)". It wouldn't be good enough to say a woman married freely, so consent doesn't matter for each act. Or that a couple is generally monogamous, with some exceptions. So the "procreative" and "unitive" purposes of sex are considered to be inseparable without some debasement of the act. Hope that helps.
No wonder the Catholic church is losing members at an unprecedented rate
I attend my parish often and it is true that a lot of people are leaving but to be honest it doesn't bother me much. As Catholics, if we spend our time worrying about "the numbers" then we've lost the purpose of what it means to be a member of a community. It's not about programs it's about people.
In my (entirely anecdotal) observation, boomers were the last generation to be raised with social pressure to appear to be religious, in communities where Catholic traditions and the Church were a central and reasonably respected part of life. They got married relatively young, baptized their kids and maybe sent them to Catholic schools all to keep their own parents happy, but didn't pressure their kids in the same way.
As the boomers got to middle age and figured out their own way to live, they dropped the pretence. In parallel, the church largely retreated from public life, education, politics, healthcare etc.
It's easy to blame this on the Church or the boomers but it's part of a wider trend of community and common institutions losing their hold. People move further away from family, have less friends, participation in community activities is down across the board, the self-sufficient nuclear family has been pushed as the ideal since the 50s and cultural gatekeeping or telling someone what to do in their own home is the biggest sin.
It's all a trade-off for getting rid of some of the genuinely more awful parts of the pre-war era.
In my (entirely anecdotal) observation, boomers were the last generation to be raised with social pressure to appear to be religious, in communities where Catholic traditions and the Church were a central and reasonably respected part of life. They got married relatively young, baptized their kids and maybe sent them to Catholic schools all to keep their own parents happy, but didn't pressure their kids in the same way.
As the boomers got to middle age and figured out their own way to live, they dropped the pretence. In parallel, the church largely retreated from public life, education, politics, healthcare etc.
It's easy to blame this on the Church or the boomers but it's part of a wider trend of community and common institutions losing their hold. People move further away from family, have less friends, participation in community activities is down across the board, the self-sufficient nuclear family has been pushed as the ideal since the 50s and cultural gatekeeping or telling someone what to do in their own home is the biggest sin.
It's all a trade-off for getting rid of some of the genuinely more awful parts of the pre-war era.
Eh we are around for few thousand of years and we have been through worse.
“And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”
“And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”
Check out 1 Corinthians 7:25-39 [1]
I've heard there was a time, ~2000 years ago, when people thought the second coming of christ was so close they were only being asked to be celibate for a year or two, and marriage was only there for people who couldn't manage that.
[1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians...
I've heard there was a time, ~2000 years ago, when people thought the second coming of christ was so close they were only being asked to be celibate for a year or two, and marriage was only there for people who couldn't manage that.
[1] https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians...
Marriage isn't perfect, especially not with today's divorce law and family court system, but the idea of joining into a union with a new person and creating a new family unit, even if without kids, is probably the best system for most people. Single people have a way of going feral IMO.
What's bad about divorce laws? People's view on divorce and divorce laws of the past seems to be much more awful
Being in a relationship opens yourself up to a huge amount of financial risk which can last a very long time after the breakup/divorce. In most countries you are exposed to this risk even if you don't marry as you automatically enter a de facto which is pretty legally similar to a full marriage.
This all made sense when you had a man working and a woman at home looking after the house and kids, but in a modern society where both work and responsibilities are mostly shared, it doesn't make sense that the person who earned the most is now at huge risk despite the relationship not reducing the others earning potential in any way. This risk is a real discouragement to even enter a relationship. You might be open to the emotional risk of things not working out but not be willing to put your house and future income on the line.
This all made sense when you had a man working and a woman at home looking after the house and kids, but in a modern society where both work and responsibilities are mostly shared, it doesn't make sense that the person who earned the most is now at huge risk despite the relationship not reducing the others earning potential in any way. This risk is a real discouragement to even enter a relationship. You might be open to the emotional risk of things not working out but not be willing to put your house and future income on the line.
If that's your outlook on marriage you shouldn't marry in the first place, divorce laws or not, as it is a long term commitment with, of course, risks involved.
> In most countries you are exposed to this risk even if you don't marry as you automatically enter a de facto which is pretty legally similar to a full marriage.
From only being in a relationship or from living together, spending together, having kids together? I'm pretty sure there is no such thing in the EU country I reside in.
Relationships aren't for everyone, especially when thinking about relationships like a business
> In most countries you are exposed to this risk even if you don't marry as you automatically enter a de facto which is pretty legally similar to a full marriage.
From only being in a relationship or from living together, spending together, having kids together? I'm pretty sure there is no such thing in the EU country I reside in.
Relationships aren't for everyone, especially when thinking about relationships like a business
I believe a well-orchestrated prenup, perhaps in combination with some structure of legal trusts, can (mostly) mitigate this. You can firewall assets and nix alimony. And then move to Texas for the cap on child support orders, which really matters [0]. The only exposure you're left with is being liable for attorney fees, but hopefully Texas has some standard to preclude those from becoming unconscionable.
A lot of people complain this is the wrong way to view marriage. That's only true if you're on relatively equal financial footing with your spouse. Any successful person has the right to structure their marriage such that there is no compelling financial incentive for their spouse to divorce them (and that too on top of a base divorce rate of ~50%). Only a fool would do anything short of make their marriage bulletproof in a situation of unusual spousal wealth asymmetry [1].
[0] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/seven-celebrities-w...
[1] https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a26570850/justin-bi...
A lot of people complain this is the wrong way to view marriage. That's only true if you're on relatively equal financial footing with your spouse. Any successful person has the right to structure their marriage such that there is no compelling financial incentive for their spouse to divorce them (and that too on top of a base divorce rate of ~50%). Only a fool would do anything short of make their marriage bulletproof in a situation of unusual spousal wealth asymmetry [1].
[0] https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/seven-celebrities-w...
[1] https://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a26570850/justin-bi...
This is viewing a common problem through the eyes of the super wealthy.
> And then move to Texas for the cap on child support orders
I'd rather stay single than move to Texas because of a possible divorce. This is possibly the weirdest way to view a marriage I've ever come about
> And then move to Texas for the cap on child support orders
I'd rather stay single than move to Texas because of a possible divorce. This is possibly the weirdest way to view a marriage I've ever come about
Actually this a problem that most acutely affects a wealth demo in the vicinity of senior software engineer in tech. It's a far more dire and painful outcome if your $2-4M in assets get chopped in half plus owe alimony and child support than if you're Bezos or Gates and hold onto many billions. In fact, any divorce of the super rich in which the wealthy spouse is left with more than say ~$20M is acceptable in an absolute sense (still comfortably financially free).
The beauty of the divorce racket is that victims usually don't understand the enormity of the financial pain involved until it's too late. Anyone who's observed a friend go through such a divorce would be wise enough to not make that mistake.
As for moving to Texas, you can choose not to and just accept that a judge may order unconscionable amounts of child support to vindictively undermine your prenup (this is routine in states like California). I'm not making the recommendation to go to Texas lightly. The divorce game has gone through many rounds of evolution over many decades and is now almost perfectly calibrated to deprive the successful of their wealth.
Personally, I'd rather just live in Austin. It's a fine city.
I also don't believe in rolling the dice on marriage without protection. It's way too irrational to assume you'll beat the 1 in 2 odds.
The beauty of the divorce racket is that victims usually don't understand the enormity of the financial pain involved until it's too late. Anyone who's observed a friend go through such a divorce would be wise enough to not make that mistake.
As for moving to Texas, you can choose not to and just accept that a judge may order unconscionable amounts of child support to vindictively undermine your prenup (this is routine in states like California). I'm not making the recommendation to go to Texas lightly. The divorce game has gone through many rounds of evolution over many decades and is now almost perfectly calibrated to deprive the successful of their wealth.
Personally, I'd rather just live in Austin. It's a fine city.
I also don't believe in rolling the dice on marriage without protection. It's way too irrational to assume you'll beat the 1 in 2 odds.
>I believe a well-orchestrated prenup,
If you think you need a prenup, you probably shouldn't get married.
If you think you need a prenup, you probably shouldn't get married.
Dead wrong. Almost no one thinks they need a prenup at the time of marriage, because they fail to project forward on a long enough timeline. Relationships can morph dramatically within 2 years, let alone 10, 20, etc. Yours is the illogic that has resulted in financial devastation for many a sorry soul.
Not dead wrong, if you're marrying for tax/insurance benefits and think you need a prenup you probably shouldn't be getting married. Marriage is first, and foremost, a religious thing and if you're going into it thinking "this is going to fail and my partner is going to try and screw me over" you simply shouldn't be getting married.
Employed spouses don't get alimony. There can be child support. Even where alimony exists, they tend to be time limited and awarded only when marriage was long.
The alimony issue happens when you look for stay at home wife have stay at home wife for yours and that marriage breaks. Incidentally, those women tend to be more afraid to leave even if marriage is bad while employed women are more likely to initiate divorce - cause they are more confident of their ability to be single.
The alimony issue happens when you look for stay at home wife have stay at home wife for yours and that marriage breaks. Incidentally, those women tend to be more afraid to leave even if marriage is bad while employed women are more likely to initiate divorce - cause they are more confident of their ability to be single.
I agree 100%. Marriage works for some, but we shouldn’t assume it works for all. People should be encouraged to seek the model that works for them best. That said, if you have a relationship that works, it’s definitely worth putting time into it in some way.
This is simply a tip that has worked for this person, and could work for others.
It doesn't have to work for everyone to be useful.
Also, I feel like far too many people have "holywood" views on what marriage is.
It doesn't have to work for everyone to be useful.
Also, I feel like far too many people have "holywood" views on what marriage is.
I'm in a very similar demographic as the author so I empathise with how hard things can be, but this:
>there’s not a lot of time for communication with my wife. We’re on the go from sun-up to sun-down, and at the end of the day we drop into bed exhausted to get just enough sleep for the next day.
Oh boy. That sounds awful.
Rather than trying to work around that busyness, personally I would go out of my way to just not have that. Maybe I'm naive, but I want to be continuously moving towards being less busy and having more time for my family. Actual time, disposable time. Not time-compressed, high-information-density notes.
Of course, to each their own.
>there’s not a lot of time for communication with my wife. We’re on the go from sun-up to sun-down, and at the end of the day we drop into bed exhausted to get just enough sleep for the next day.
Oh boy. That sounds awful.
Rather than trying to work around that busyness, personally I would go out of my way to just not have that. Maybe I'm naive, but I want to be continuously moving towards being less busy and having more time for my family. Actual time, disposable time. Not time-compressed, high-information-density notes.
Of course, to each their own.
That's was one thing that seemed odd to me. Take 15-45 minutes to write a note. Or, y'know, be present for 15-45 minutes right there in person.
However I suspect this is less about time management and more about communication styles: this person is a writer. They communicate better when writing.
However I suspect this is less about time management and more about communication styles: this person is a writer. They communicate better when writing.
As they said in the piece, they're also doing thinking while writing. A lot of this thinking is something that isn't going to happen if you're there in person. And the other advantage they mentioned is that it frees up their in-person conversation time for more interesting and intimate conservations.
It’s an old, oft repeated saying, but nobody ever laments not working enough when they’re on their death bed, but frequently people do regret not spending enough time with loved ones.
the person who is dying isn’t the same person who is working
who do you optimize for the old man or the current man
who do you optimize for the old man or the current man
Great post! Thanks for sharing something so personal. Being married and having kids is very rewarding, but also very challenging.
Being a good husband or father is not something that is a given. This is especially true in the asymmetric situation where one parent stays at home. Good for you for finding meaningful ways to be there for your partner and sharing it.
Sharing our experiences for what works helps us all be better! If this post even helps one other dad be a better father and husband, the world is immeasurably improved.
Being a good husband or father is not something that is a given. This is especially true in the asymmetric situation where one parent stays at home. Good for you for finding meaningful ways to be there for your partner and sharing it.
Sharing our experiences for what works helps us all be better! If this post even helps one other dad be a better father and husband, the world is immeasurably improved.
Author here - that's exactly my thinking. Just sharing my perspective even if it helps one person be a better spouse/parent.
I thought your title and tagline were kind of clickbait-y, but you really inspired me to try what you suggested. I haven't yet overcome the feeling that anything I write to my wife needs to be an elaborate carefully constructed love note to be worthwhile. What you outlined sounds like just writing down some of the contents of regular conversations is what I usually talk about with her in the evenings (since we have no kids yet).
... it also made me think about one of the interesting balances I have to strike in our evening conversations, where I need to remember to stop rambling about technical details of work I'm excited to tell her about but are selfish to monopolize the conversation with (even though I know she does want to hear sometimes). The idea of transferring aspect of conversation to writing is very interesting, and seems like a good opportunity for self examination on my part to be a better spouse.
Anyway, thank you for writing!
... it also made me think about one of the interesting balances I have to strike in our evening conversations, where I need to remember to stop rambling about technical details of work I'm excited to tell her about but are selfish to monopolize the conversation with (even though I know she does want to hear sometimes). The idea of transferring aspect of conversation to writing is very interesting, and seems like a good opportunity for self examination on my part to be a better spouse.
Anyway, thank you for writing!
It was a great read :) !
Is it just me or does anybody else think having to “do” something to want to talk to each other is weird? I feel like the trust between these two was very broken at this point. Usually when both parties have a healthy emotional well being and they like each other (and have kids also, so they have a lot in common I guess?) it would only be normal to want to talk with each other.
Looks more like a symptom of fatigue or emotional discomfort to me if you don’t want to talk to your spouse. I would start looking Into that before I would fire off random text book romantic gestures to “save my marriage”.
Looks more like a symptom of fatigue or emotional discomfort to me if you don’t want to talk to your spouse. I would start looking Into that before I would fire off random text book romantic gestures to “save my marriage”.
Relationships exist for a lot of reasons simultaneously, and long ones will become more and less about different reasons at different times.
For people raising kids together, the relationship can often become dominated by the practical partnership of family-rearing because it’s so consuming. You do that parenting thing all the time and you love your partner for what they add to it and that feels like plenty. That project becomes so fundamental and sufficient that a lot of other parts of the relationship can quietly fade even while the relationship as a whole is very strong.
Consciously investing in sharing (or romance, or sex, or travel, or career encouragement, or business partnership, or whatever) can help revive and sustain the multidimensionality of the relationship, and keep it strong and richly satisfying as various other parts wax and wane.
Of course, you can also just have a great relationship that rides a “no (conscious) effort” vibe and it can be a long and exciting and rich relationship too. It’s not like there are rules.
There’s just no reason to question the OP’s relationship just on the grounds of them choosing to put in some extra effort.
For people raising kids together, the relationship can often become dominated by the practical partnership of family-rearing because it’s so consuming. You do that parenting thing all the time and you love your partner for what they add to it and that feels like plenty. That project becomes so fundamental and sufficient that a lot of other parts of the relationship can quietly fade even while the relationship as a whole is very strong.
Consciously investing in sharing (or romance, or sex, or travel, or career encouragement, or business partnership, or whatever) can help revive and sustain the multidimensionality of the relationship, and keep it strong and richly satisfying as various other parts wax and wane.
Of course, you can also just have a great relationship that rides a “no (conscious) effort” vibe and it can be a long and exciting and rich relationship too. It’s not like there are rules.
There’s just no reason to question the OP’s relationship just on the grounds of them choosing to put in some extra effort.
OP didn't say they don't want to talk to their spouse and I definitely didn't read anything here that suggested broken trust, emotional discomfort, etc. Maybe you are reading your own experiences into this? They were clearly saying that their life was happy, but extremely busy, so writing is a way to connect when they aren't able to do so in person as often as they would like.
i think part of the problem is, that when everyone is busy it is easy for habits to take over and communication to reduce, especially when things are otherwise going well. but then when things get worse the lack of communication makes it more difficult to notice.
in that case, doing something to break out of that and increase communication again sounds like the right step.
in that case, doing something to break out of that and increase communication again sounds like the right step.
They have kids, pretty ok for fatigue to come in.
I think this is great, Jordan found something new and novel to reconnect and it worked. Who cares what it is if it worked. Shows affections.
People are different, what makes she happy would be weird for your spouse maybe.
I like it.
I think this is great, Jordan found something new and novel to reconnect and it worked. Who cares what it is if it worked. Shows affections.
People are different, what makes she happy would be weird for your spouse maybe.
I like it.
I only have two kids, not four like the author, but I can say it’s impossible to have a real conversation sometimes.
You obviously didn't read the whole blog post.
Yes. I'm in what I feel to be a shitty marriage and it's a lot more communicative and healthy than what is described.
The type of job and how you are wired makes a big difference in how you communicate. Like the OP, I'm someone who has always worked in startups (until the last couple months at a non-profit). I've always been on the product / leadership side and most recently cofounded a company where I had to wear all the hats for 7+ years. Most waking moments were focused on making the company successful and ensuring a stable income for my family (I have 4 kids under 17). My older kids are travel soccer players, life is busy and my communication with my wife has suffered for a long while. With limited time together a marriage still needs to move along... I appreciate the OP using all means of communication to improve the relationship. I too am a better writer than speaker so I will add some of his advice to my toolchest.
Author here - Sounds like you're in a similar situation (just 10 years ahead of me). I think this would work great for you, but you clearly have been doing something right to keep the marriage afloat for that long!
My wife and I want to leave a legacy for our kids and glorify God with our marriage. We've also had many first hand experiences of watching other marriages implode and cause harm to family members and children. It's always better to keep working at it, keep humble, and have fun enjoying life :)
> I’m a husband who is 30. I also have 4 kids, ages 6 and under. I’m the sole-provider for the family (though my wife works harder). Between the job, the kids, and extrafamilial obligations, there’s not a lot of time for communication with my wife. We’re on the go from sun-up to sun-down, and at the end of the day we drop into bed exhausted to get just enough sleep for the next day. Very often in the past, a week or so would go by and I hadn’t even so much as checked in on my wife.
Sounds like hell; is this the American Dream?
Sounds like hell; is this the American Dream?
The author is the founder, owner, and operator of a company, and from a quick view, is quite successful at his work. Plus, he is in a relationship where his partner is supportive of his dreams and long hours. And he has kids at the same time.
That sounds like a great life to me. Not a lot of people get the opportunity, and not very many people can pull it off. I'm sure life will be more relaxed when the kids leave the home after become adults, too.
That sounds like a great life to me. Not a lot of people get the opportunity, and not very many people can pull it off. I'm sure life will be more relaxed when the kids leave the home after become adults, too.
When there is no time for important things that does not sound like a great life (to me of course).
Is that company that important?
Did we loose the ability to get enough to live and we live to get enough instead?
Is that company that important?
Did we loose the ability to get enough to live and we live to get enough instead?
If you have ever had children, you know they become 100% of your life and 110% of your time for the first year or so, and with multiple children that could stretch to several years.
I guess if that interferes with your immediate hedonistic needs you would just get rid of the children? Maybe just dump them on someone else whose time is less self-importantly valuable?
It's the same with running a startup. You make the choice to commit, you follow through, and in the long run you reap the rewards and live a fuller, better life.
I guess if that interferes with your immediate hedonistic needs you would just get rid of the children? Maybe just dump them on someone else whose time is less self-importantly valuable?
It's the same with running a startup. You make the choice to commit, you follow through, and in the long run you reap the rewards and live a fuller, better life.
if it works you reap the benefits but the sad path is the same in both
miserable
miserable
> Is that company that important?
If he doesn’t want his children to starve then yeah working is important.
If he doesn’t want his children to starve then yeah working is important.
> Plus, he is in a relationship where his partner is supportive of his dreams and long hours.
The fact that he needs a servant-wife to be able to support his career is a red flag. Having so many children and spending so much time working also means he can't have meaningful relationships with all of them.
The fact that he needs a servant-wife to be able to support his career is a red flag. Having so many children and spending so much time working also means he can't have meaningful relationships with all of them.
Why do you assume he "needs" her to support his career? Many founders are deliberately single and not in a relationship to focus on their startup, and do perfectly fine.
And how could you call someone a "servant-wife" just for choosing to be a stay-at-home mother? In what universe is that not completely disrespectful to people who choose to be stay-at-home mothers? You are calling a person a "servant" for being a mother and denying her agency by defining her only in relation to her spouse.
By this implication, the opposite of a "servant-wife" is a "working-wife," and it's shocking that you can't define a person independently of a spouse within this framework. The term "mother" doesn't do this, but better yet, it's best to skip negatively judging strangers entirely.
And how could you call someone a "servant-wife" just for choosing to be a stay-at-home mother? In what universe is that not completely disrespectful to people who choose to be stay-at-home mothers? You are calling a person a "servant" for being a mother and denying her agency by defining her only in relation to her spouse.
By this implication, the opposite of a "servant-wife" is a "working-wife," and it's shocking that you can't define a person independently of a spouse within this framework. The term "mother" doesn't do this, but better yet, it's best to skip negatively judging strangers entirely.
It's pure coincidence that it's the woman who stays at home, right?
When one half of a relationship of two people does work you don't respect, that doesn't make them a servant. These are two human beings that have divided the work they have to do to live their life in this way. There's nothing wrong with that.
The majority of stay-at-home partners happen to be women. There is something wrong with that.
Raising kids at home is now being servant? Should just drop the kids to daycare then where they grow up the most important years of their lives without any meaningful companionship of any of the parents.
lol at the hacker news crowed recoiling at a stay-at-home mother in 2022. Oh, the humanity!
The fact that you think she’s a servant says more about you than them.
As well say he’s the servant, working long hours while she gets to enjoy closer relationships with their children.
As well say he’s the servant, working long hours while she gets to enjoy closer relationships with their children.
I have two kids under 6 and while it was very hard for about a year or so I realized that I am a lot happier than I was before I had kids, even though I do an order of magnitude more chores. Then I realized that this is the reason I am happier --- I work; and I don't mean I work for an employer, I work for my family, my children, my house. This is what makes me happy.
There is an ancient Greek saying: Not working is the root of all evil.
There is an ancient Greek saying: Not working is the root of all evil.
I'm very interested to read more about that Greek saying. Do you have a reference of it somewhere?
The Norwegian dictionary [1] suggests that the expression "lediggang er roten til alt ondt" stems from a merging of two older expressions: "Otium est pulvinar diaboli"/"idle hands are the devil's workshop" and 1 Tim 6,10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"
Wiktionary [2] refers to St. Jerome
> Proverbs 16:27 may have inspired St. Jerome to write in the late 4th century: fac et aliquid operis, ut semper te diabolus inveniat occupatum, or “engage in some occupation, so that the devil may always find you busy.” This was later repeated by Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales, which was probably the source of its popularity.
[1] https://naob.no/ordbok/lediggang
[2] https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/idle_hands_are_the_devil%27...
Wiktionary [2] refers to St. Jerome
> Proverbs 16:27 may have inspired St. Jerome to write in the late 4th century: fac et aliquid operis, ut semper te diabolus inveniat occupatum, or “engage in some occupation, so that the devil may always find you busy.” This was later repeated by Chaucer in the Canterbury Tales, which was probably the source of its popularity.
[1] https://naob.no/ordbok/lediggang
[2] https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/idle_hands_are_the_devil%27...
Ha. I can understand your pov for sure.
We (family with two kids under the age of 4) just moved to Texas, been in there ER once, urgent care twice, had stomach flu, ear infection, viral rash, a flat tire, water damage in the house we bought resulting in lots of money flying out the window and a scramble to find temp housing.
All in the past two weeks.
It’s pure hell to the point you laugh instead of cry.
For example, yesterday our kids got into daycare which meant the only thing my wife and I had to do was work. We could finally get a few hours of focus. Not thirty minutes into work the house cleaners I had forgotten about showed up to start cleaning.
Sometimes life seems nonstop.
But when my three year old gives me a kiss on the cheek or my one year old just wanted me to hold him, my world stops for just a moment and I realize how lucky we’ve been to even get to this point.
I guess I’m happy in hell.
We (family with two kids under the age of 4) just moved to Texas, been in there ER once, urgent care twice, had stomach flu, ear infection, viral rash, a flat tire, water damage in the house we bought resulting in lots of money flying out the window and a scramble to find temp housing.
All in the past two weeks.
It’s pure hell to the point you laugh instead of cry.
For example, yesterday our kids got into daycare which meant the only thing my wife and I had to do was work. We could finally get a few hours of focus. Not thirty minutes into work the house cleaners I had forgotten about showed up to start cleaning.
Sometimes life seems nonstop.
But when my three year old gives me a kiss on the cheek or my one year old just wanted me to hold him, my world stops for just a moment and I realize how lucky we’ve been to even get to this point.
I guess I’m happy in hell.
It does sound hectic, but it's not hell, because he loves what he does, and clearly loves his wife and kids. That sacrifice (on the part of him and his wife) is for those they love.
I do think it's kinda weird to write his wife a daily note -- presumably it takes him 15-30 minutes to write the note. Why not spend that time talking face-to-face with her instead? For me and my wife (I'm in a similar stage of life) we cherish that ~30 minutes before bed to have a cup of tea, regroup, chat about the kind of things he writes in his note, and so on.
Though he did say that writing the notes has helped their relationship, and they now "talk more than ever (weird, right?)". So if it's working for him, keep it up!
I do think it's kinda weird to write his wife a daily note -- presumably it takes him 15-30 minutes to write the note. Why not spend that time talking face-to-face with her instead? For me and my wife (I'm in a similar stage of life) we cherish that ~30 minutes before bed to have a cup of tea, regroup, chat about the kind of things he writes in his note, and so on.
Though he did say that writing the notes has helped their relationship, and they now "talk more than ever (weird, right?)". So if it's working for him, keep it up!
> It does sound hectic, but it's not hell, because he loves what he does, and clearly loves his wife and kids. That sacrifice (on the part of him and his wife) is for those they love.
Well I love my kids but I still think in retrospect that it was a shitty decision to have kids. Things aren't mutually exclusive.
Having said that I am not saying anyone ought to regret having kids or that it is a shitty decision for everyone.
Well I love my kids but I still think in retrospect that it was a shitty decision to have kids. Things aren't mutually exclusive.
Having said that I am not saying anyone ought to regret having kids or that it is a shitty decision for everyone.
My interpretation of this is in the context of four kids and his wife still asleep when he's writing the notes. Experience tells me there's not much space for intimate conversation as soon as the kids are up and about.
Maybe he writes it on the train during his commute or some other time when they can’t physically talk?
depends on where both of them are when he has time to write the note. he could call her, but maybe it's at a time when she is not available. in any case it seems like one way to address one problem in their relationship (the problem of not having enough time to talk to each other) sure there are other ways to address the same, some better, some worse. this is what happens to work in this situation.
Getting what you want is often unpleasant. Accomplishing nothing is quite often very pleasant. The trick is to find a happy medium between those two.
Now imagine doing that with two minimum wage jobs. That is true hell.
That is impossible. Kids this small require childcare and minimum vage job does not pay for one. With such small salaries, one of them has to be home.
Yet there are single parents all over the United States working multiple jobs to get by. Childcare exists without paying some boutique daycare tens of thousands of dollars a year.
They dont have 4 kids under 6. Which is significant difference. Childcare for 1 or even 2 kids is much cheaper and easier to find then for 4 of various ages.
The single parents of toddlers working multiple jobs either pay for childcare or have whole network of familly members to help them. There is no way around the fact that toddler needs supervision incompatible with most of work.
The single parents of toddlers working multiple jobs either pay for childcare or have whole network of familly members to help them. There is no way around the fact that toddler needs supervision incompatible with most of work.
I work in the restaurant industry and I can assure you it is not impossible because millions of Americans are doing it. Most of the time the child ends up with the grandparents while the parents work. That is if the grandparents are not working...
The grandparents are caring for 4 kids under 6 daily in millions of American families?
Also, most grandparents in fact are in working age when the grandkids are small. Some are sick, some never returned to work after kids grew, but quote a few always worked or returned to work. And even with those who are at home, asking them for daily babysitting of 4 kids is quite a lot.
Also, most grandparents in fact are in working age when the grandkids are small. Some are sick, some never returned to work after kids grew, but quote a few always worked or returned to work. And even with those who are at home, asking them for daily babysitting of 4 kids is quite a lot.
Women almost never willingly birth 4 kids in the span of 6 years without very strong outside influence. My guess here would be religion based on age (first kid at ~24).
Either that or there's multiple multiple births.
If their religion demands they have so many kids so quickly it's unlikely he helps out with the childrearing activities and leaves it to his wife, I'm which case his life is probably not very different than a childless man.
Either that or there's multiple multiple births.
If their religion demands they have so many kids so quickly it's unlikely he helps out with the childrearing activities and leaves it to his wife, I'm which case his life is probably not very different than a childless man.
Author here - Religion doesn't demand having lots of kids, though the Bible does say having lots of kids is a blessing.
4 kids 6 and younger is one child every two years. My youngest is 6 months. It's an aggressive pace but hardly unreasonable.
We wanted to have all of our kids together so they could be friends. And it makes the parenting window much shorter (25 years until they are all adults and moving out). Some people spread their kids out and have kids in the home for 30-35 years.
4 kids 6 and younger is one child every two years. My youngest is 6 months. It's an aggressive pace but hardly unreasonable.
We wanted to have all of our kids together so they could be friends. And it makes the parenting window much shorter (25 years until they are all adults and moving out). Some people spread their kids out and have kids in the home for 30-35 years.
every two years doesn't feel that aggressive. my brothers and me are closer together. and most people i know are similar. my own kids are spread out by three years, and that's only because the doctors here said that after a c-section you have to wait 3 years before you can have another child. to me that feels quite spread out. the age difference between the oldest and the youngest is 6 years, and sometimes it's a challenge for them to get along because of that age difference.
Having kids close together is also a legitimate strategy for having closeness among siblings. Not a guarantee, but having them in a similar stage of development can help them play better together (older kids aren't always interesting in what younger kids are, also there are physical differences that can make sports no fun for older kids). There's a practical aspect here. Not for everyone and it also varies a lot based on the temperament of the children.
The strong outside influence on my family to half multiple was that we were able to see a good number of examples of large (>=4 kids) families that were an example of what we wanted too.
Children require a lot of time. I only have a single one, and I am already struggling with no time to do anything. I admit I am not the best at time management.
With 4 children ... I can't even conceive how that would be. I would probably love them to death but would consider escaping into the wildness every night.
With 4 children ... I can't even conceive how that would be. I would probably love them to death but would consider escaping into the wildness every night.
I feel ya. It took me a couple years to get used to having kids, but there is a point where I realized (as a very selfish person) my life was no longer about me. The little amount of time I get to myself anymore I cherish, just as much as the time I cherish with my children.
time overlaps, it doesn't accumulate. two kids takes maybe 20% more time than one kid, not 100% more. and as kids get older, more kids means they can occupy themselves more easily because they play together, and are not alone seeking your attention.
Thanks for the info, that ship has sailed for me now anyway.
I think it's the American Reality, if you're extremely fortunate. The American Dream was to be able to comfortably support a family on one income with a high school diploma.
Life with 4 kids under 6 is exhausting as hell but feels like heaven.
They have 4 kids under 6. Sounds like reality of families with manu small kids.
People who keep on having children are often the kind of people who like children. Under those circumstances I assure you that is not a hellish life.
I think the author thinks they have to have kids as instructed by the bible:
"As human beings, our primary mission in life is to be fruitful and multiply, and take dominion over the earth. If that sounds like Bible talk, it is. This is the creed God gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28.
That’s our responsibility as human beings."
https://jdnoc.com/guides/increasing-wealth-as-a-father
"As human beings, our primary mission in life is to be fruitful and multiply, and take dominion over the earth. If that sounds like Bible talk, it is. This is the creed God gave to Adam and Eve. Genesis 1:28.
That’s our responsibility as human beings."
https://jdnoc.com/guides/increasing-wealth-as-a-father
The linked article has quite a few cracks that show, but this is just straight up ramblings of a crazy person. Is this the sad outcome for people who don't know how to write but get addicted to "hustle" influencers and SEO scams?
Also none of this sounds at all Christian.
Also none of this sounds at all Christian.
'Christian' covers an awful lot of ground, as an admittedly simplistic division - a lot of the Old Testament (which includes Genesis as quoted) might '[not sound] at all Christian' to many.
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I've stopped reading at ".... 4 kids" :D
Eh, everyone does what they want for themselves and a lot of weird dynamics work out for people.
However here, not knowing any party, from absolutely fly-over perspective feels like (marital) tragedy waiting to happen.
Young (30), working asses off either at work or with 4 young kids, only one person providing, lack of intimacy and something that could be called weekly report instead of partner communicating.
Even this piece feels forced. Maybe it’s me but exposing personal relationship strategy feels like boasting about win, and when relationships becomes a field for wins it doesn’t bode well.
I still don’t know them and know nada, that might work perfectly well, but that’s definitely not something I’d go with for general life advice.
However here, not knowing any party, from absolutely fly-over perspective feels like (marital) tragedy waiting to happen.
Young (30), working asses off either at work or with 4 young kids, only one person providing, lack of intimacy and something that could be called weekly report instead of partner communicating.
Even this piece feels forced. Maybe it’s me but exposing personal relationship strategy feels like boasting about win, and when relationships becomes a field for wins it doesn’t bode well.
I still don’t know them and know nada, that might work perfectly well, but that’s definitely not something I’d go with for general life advice.
I was writing (almost) daily email when I and my wife were in long distance relationship during the time my wife studied for her master degree. It happened just in the early days of our marriage. It was the day before WhatsApp has video call feature and long time before zoom. The small daily email quite helping us to form the bonding. Couple o lf years ago I dumped the email into this blog http://www.dearwifey.com/.
This is interesting read/advice.
Yet, what I've really missed is the spouse feedback.
The writing focused on "his" expectations and "his" conclusions.
I'm not underestimating this.
Though it would be nice to write this as a duo or share a separate post by your spouse.
Yet, what I've really missed is the spouse feedback.
The writing focused on "his" expectations and "his" conclusions.
I'm not underestimating this.
Though it would be nice to write this as a duo or share a separate post by your spouse.
Author here - She regularly talks about her perspective to me and I listen, so a reciprocal note isn't usually necessary or expected.
+1, I'd love to see your wife write up a similar post about how she feels about this exercise.
I recorded an interview with her to get her thoughts! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJP-4f7AnAk
I don't know about daily notes, anything that's daily kind of loses its impact. But leaving surprise love notes for my wife, spontaneously, a few times a year is wonderful and something I highly recommend. Get some post-its and a sharpie, hide them someplace unexpected.
disagree, when it comes to a relationship some things turn into rituals that are helpful. what the author is doing is more reflection than just paying attention to their partner. daily reflection is very healthy, whether you do it for yourself or you share it doesn't matter. but it doesn't lose its impact.
Great read, I am stealing this concept and implementing it in someway. People are lost here in details, obviously the central point of this article is how to stay on top of communication with your spouse with busy lifestyle. It doesn’t have to be notes, may be you can go for daily walks etc. Point is to not let relationship become stale and boring that after 20-40 years of marriage you may not know much of how life went. May be some people do not want to be very involved with wife and just marry to have kids. Either way points in this articles are great, thanks for sharing.
> I recommend writing the note first thing in the morning (...) That’s usually when you’re most fresh
Combining "morning" and "fresh" in one sentence sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Combining "morning" and "fresh" in one sentence sounds like an oxymoron to me.
I would have appreciated some mention of the actual medium in which the notes are written.
Are we talking about a post-it note? Are the notes in a physical notebook? Is this done via some sort of mobile app? On a WhatsApp message, perhaps?
I know it will be different for everyone, probably, but I think it is important to know one that is already working for someone.
Are we talking about a post-it note? Are the notes in a physical notebook? Is this done via some sort of mobile app? On a WhatsApp message, perhaps?
I know it will be different for everyone, probably, but I think it is important to know one that is already working for someone.
Author here - I added an addendum to the end of the article. I write notes in a notes app (I use notion, but you can use whatever). Then I usually text it to her (though email would work fine). I keep it very simple, and I type a lot faster than I write by hand.
Reminds me of the habit we started in Marriage Encounter 20+ years ago. Same idea - communication. ME is Christian-based, and we have fallen away from that in recent years, but the concept was sound. The daily notes went a long way to improving communication and intimacy. This post prompts me to pick it up again.
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We chat every day on Signal.
My wife will point out in the evenings if I didn't text her much during the day, or even send me a message some point during the day asking if I'm alright. These days are few and far between, usually just meeting heavy days or when I really get sucked into a time-sensitive problem.
Yeah, people act like this is uniquely weird, but it's quite similar to the sms / IM that many of us do every day. It's just all in one message as opposed to broken up, and it's more intentional.
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Everyday sounds a bit too aggressive, but I could see this working maybe on a weekly or monthly basis but in longer form.
A newsletter for one could sound exciting.
A newsletter for one could sound exciting.
This would drive me up the wall but each to their own.
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Author here - I recorded an interview with my wife to get her perspective on it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJP-4f7AnAk
i am so obsessed with writing notes. like, i literally document everything. like everything.
it's not like writing diary at end of the day. it's like taking notes you are going through.
i am so obsessed, i try to reach out for my mobiles as fast as possible something happen.
it's like, i am writing what i am thinking...
and it's only for one reason for my future partner, that's all. i want to share everything with her. no matter what...
i know it's so much she can't even read everything.
also, one i meet her, these notes will be redirected towards her, so kind of no notes, what better that direct convo with her even with messages.... :)
i am waiting so much........
i am waiting so much........
I agree that this level of communication should be met in a relationship, but I feel like the form is possibly an area for improvement. Talking face to face being preferable, and texting or calling if not.
Physical notes are fine but it feels less natural.
Physical notes are fine but it feels less natural.
they are explicitly stating that writing those notes allows them to talk more because they can move the transactional stuff out of the way and use their face to face time for more enjoyable topics.
Writing a note every day is just pedestalizing your partner unless it’s bidirectional.
Also, “absence makes the heart grow fonder” is a real thing.
So very bad advice if it’s just one way. That’s actually si*p behavior.
Very good advice if it’s symmetrical.
Also, “absence makes the heart grow fonder” is a real thing.
So very bad advice if it’s just one way. That’s actually si*p behavior.
Very good advice if it’s symmetrical.
The underlying value here seems to be that good communication is absolutely essential. The kind of person who goes into SEO blogging professionally is likely a very comfortable writer. It may be that one person is better able to express themselves in a written form, and one person is better able to express themselves orally. It sounds like this isn't really about the ceremony of the note - they're handling household logistics – so much as putting the effort into communicating, so I could see that being best done by one person as writing, and by the other spoken.
That's implied.
Already on it:
https://semiosis.github.io/posts/write-everyday/
3x5 card, one to two sentences. It works.
My issue with my wife is not having 45 mins a day with her. If I had that, the note would be supernumerary.
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Thank you for sharing! great idea.
Does she write notes to him? It would feel a little weird to me if this was one-sided.
remember to take out the trash
Where does one find a wife?
find some female friends first. and i specifically don't mean try to just date women. friendship without expecting to get married is a better startingpoint.
start here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31713720 and maybe here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29100862
online dating can work, but only if both partners are open to a serious conversation of your respective expectations from a relationship. or of you both accept that building a relationship takes time to get to know each other.
start here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31713720 and maybe here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29100862
online dating can work, but only if both partners are open to a serious conversation of your respective expectations from a relationship. or of you both accept that building a relationship takes time to get to know each other.
Having recently found a partner, I never want to go through the search / date / getting known each other process ever again. If you did not get to known someone from young age, the dating culture gets increasingly worse
Don’t waste your time reading comments. Each pontification is shittier than the other. People on HN can be extremely stupid sometimes.
Note to author: please for fuck sake, stop with the false click bait promises. “I wrote a note every day” … then … “Ok, that’s a lie; it’s on weekdays and not everyday”… what the hell? You do you you’re writing and not speaking right? ie. go back and edit your text if you’ve lied, otherwise it’s just clickbait.
Note to author: please for fuck sake, stop with the false click bait promises. “I wrote a note every day” … then … “Ok, that’s a lie; it’s on weekdays and not everyday”… what the hell? You do you you’re writing and not speaking right? ie. go back and edit your text if you’ve lied, otherwise it’s just clickbait.
“Husband discovers that communication with wife is helpful”
Imagine needing daily gratitude to function?
Imagine how expressing daily gratitude might change who you are.
If you say things enough, you come to believe in them and act to make them true. Even if you wrote such notes every day, and never gave them to your partner, the act of writing them changes you. Perhaps, even, into a better partner.
If you say things enough, you come to believe in them and act to make them true. Even if you wrote such notes every day, and never gave them to your partner, the act of writing them changes you. Perhaps, even, into a better partner.
Gratitude is only possible from a place of narcissism. Think about it.
I don't get it. Would you be suggesting that truly selfless people don't like to be thanked? If so, I don't understand why that would be a good thing; there's nothing wrong to expect respect or basic appreciation for your help.
We're using the word differently.
In the context of this thread, gratitude stands for expressing what you appreciate about your relationship with another.
Do you see the problem here? If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.
If you're thinking, yeah, great idea, everyone manipulates, so what, you're a sociopath :)
As for the way you're using the word gratitude, to mean 'thanks' - sure, social norms dictate acknowledging other human beings in various ways - that's not what this thread is about.
In the context of this thread, gratitude stands for expressing what you appreciate about your relationship with another.
Do you see the problem here? If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.
If you're thinking, yeah, great idea, everyone manipulates, so what, you're a sociopath :)
As for the way you're using the word gratitude, to mean 'thanks' - sure, social norms dictate acknowledging other human beings in various ways - that's not what this thread is about.
I heard about the flower metaphor before, so I actually hear what you're saying now.
The last time I heard this metaphor was in the context of avoiding too much flattery or dependence on praise of others. So, a well-adjusted person does things because they want to, or a have a responsibility to, without relying too much on praise.
I think this framing is useful for a person too reliant on others' opinions for happiness, but even within this framework, you can still feel happy when others appreciate you (while not reliant on the emotion). So, it's still a positive to give and receive gratitude, so long as both people have a stable sense of self and aren't reliant on gratitude for happiness.
The last time I heard this metaphor was in the context of avoiding too much flattery or dependence on praise of others. So, a well-adjusted person does things because they want to, or a have a responsibility to, without relying too much on praise.
I think this framing is useful for a person too reliant on others' opinions for happiness, but even within this framework, you can still feel happy when others appreciate you (while not reliant on the emotion). So, it's still a positive to give and receive gratitude, so long as both people have a stable sense of self and aren't reliant on gratitude for happiness.
that makes a lot more sense, but this is from the perspective of the receiver not depending on gratitude. parent poster however goes much further by rejecting gratitude as manipulative, which is a rather toxic attitude.
Gratitude, the definition of the word, means "a feeling of appreciation (or similar positive response) by a recipient of another's kindness, gifts, help, favours, or other form of generosity to the giver of such gifts". It is a feeling you get when you appreciate something about some one / some thing other than yourself. Expressing gratitude is communicating that feeling, typically out of a desire to share the feeling, because you want others to feel good feelings too. It has nothing to do with narcissism.
If the flower could hear you, it would like to hear that it made you feel good. Flowers can't hear, but people can.
If the flower could hear you, it would like to hear that it made you feel good. Flowers can't hear, but people can.
Think through what the opposite of gratitude would be.
Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.
What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you?
What do we call that?
Get it? The key ingredient is who gets the goodies? That's what narcissism is, preoccupation with what I'm getting in relation to others. You can't get feelings of gratitude without being preoccupied with comparing yourself to others or your past self first :)
You can get just feeling warm and fuzzy, sharing a cup of tea in the morning, and I'm all for that. Because it doesn't involve intellectualizing your place in the social dominance hierarchy (comparison to others) or 'the world' (comparison to past self), and getting feelings from the conclusion you reach.
Hope that clarifies it a bit :)
Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.
What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you?
What do we call that?
Get it? The key ingredient is who gets the goodies? That's what narcissism is, preoccupation with what I'm getting in relation to others. You can't get feelings of gratitude without being preoccupied with comparing yourself to others or your past self first :)
You can get just feeling warm and fuzzy, sharing a cup of tea in the morning, and I'm all for that. Because it doesn't involve intellectualizing your place in the social dominance hierarchy (comparison to others) or 'the world' (comparison to past self), and getting feelings from the conclusion you reach.
Hope that clarifies it a bit :)
That logic would mean that any good feeling is narcissism. Which would defeat the purpose of the word narcissism. You would just say "I feel narcissistic" instead of "I feel good" or "I am thankful that I feel good". The only way to know what "good" is, is to compare it to "bad". Any feeling at all would be a comparison against the opposite state your past self felt, so literally any feeling at all would be narcissism. But it's...... not.
Narcissism is an excessive interest in one's physical appearance or image, and an excessive preoccupation with one's own needs. It is excessive self-interest, not any self-interest at all.
Example 1: Self-preservation is the interest in preserving the self over others. But it is not narcissism to consider what you need to keep yourself alive and healthy, before you consider others' welfare. It would be narcissism if somebody was drowning and you first needed to look at your reflection in the water before you tried to save them.
Example 2: If you say "I want you to know that I really enjoyed those cookies you gave me," you are considering your own self-interest, but only in the context of trying to communicate a feeling of joy to the other party with the intent of causing them joy (that they gave you joy). In that case your interest was actually in the other party, not yourself, even if the origin of the act came from a reflection of your own pleasure. On the other hand, it would be narcissism to go on a 30 minute rant of how exactly you want cookies to be made that the other party never asked for.
Example 3: Thinking "I am not currently on fire" and being happy about that is a reflection on one's desires, but not an excessive one. On the other hand, sitting for 30 minutes just wallowing in the feeling of your superiority for not being on fire, or telling other people how great it is that you're not on fire [when nobody asked], would probably border on narcissism. It would definitely be narcissism to tell a burn victim that you are happy you are not on fire.
Also:
> What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you? What do we call that?
Doing a good deed? Compersion? Joy? Compassion? Sympathy? Mudita? Mitfreude? What were you trying to imply it was?
Narcissism is an excessive interest in one's physical appearance or image, and an excessive preoccupation with one's own needs. It is excessive self-interest, not any self-interest at all.
Example 1: Self-preservation is the interest in preserving the self over others. But it is not narcissism to consider what you need to keep yourself alive and healthy, before you consider others' welfare. It would be narcissism if somebody was drowning and you first needed to look at your reflection in the water before you tried to save them.
Example 2: If you say "I want you to know that I really enjoyed those cookies you gave me," you are considering your own self-interest, but only in the context of trying to communicate a feeling of joy to the other party with the intent of causing them joy (that they gave you joy). In that case your interest was actually in the other party, not yourself, even if the origin of the act came from a reflection of your own pleasure. On the other hand, it would be narcissism to go on a 30 minute rant of how exactly you want cookies to be made that the other party never asked for.
Example 3: Thinking "I am not currently on fire" and being happy about that is a reflection on one's desires, but not an excessive one. On the other hand, sitting for 30 minutes just wallowing in the feeling of your superiority for not being on fire, or telling other people how great it is that you're not on fire [when nobody asked], would probably border on narcissism. It would definitely be narcissism to tell a burn victim that you are happy you are not on fire.
Also:
> What about when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, to others, but not you? What do we call that?
Doing a good deed? Compersion? Joy? Compassion? Sympathy? Mudita? Mitfreude? What were you trying to imply it was?
> Gratitude is when others do things you appreciate, that are generous, for your benefit, roughly speaking.
This is incorrect. You have a definition error.
GRAT'ITUDE, noun [Latin gratitudo, from gratus, pleasing. See Grace.]
An emotion of the heart, excited by a favor or benefit received; a sentiment of kindness or good will towards a benefactor; thankfulness. gratitude is an agreeable emotion, consisting in or accompanied with good will to a benefactor, and a disposition to make a suitable return of benefits or services, or when no return can be made, with a desire to see the benefactor prosperous and happy. gratitude is a virtue of the highest excellence, as it implies a feeling and generous heart, and a proper sense of duty.
KINDNESS, noun [from kind, the adjective.]
1. Good will; benevolence; that temper or disposition which delights in contributing to the happiness of others, which is exercised cheerfully in gratifying their wishes, supplying their wants or alleviating their distresses; benignity of nature. kindness ever accompanies love.
There is no man whose kindness we may not sometime want, or by whose malice we may not sometime suffer.
2. Act of good will; beneficence; any act of benevolence which promotes the happiness or welfare of others. Charity, hospitality, attentions to the wants of others, etc., are deemed acts of kindness or kindnesses
NARCISSISM, noun
An exceptional interest in and admiration for yourself.
----
There's an important word in that definition of narcissism: "exceptional." Showing gratitude cannot constitute narcissism as such.
Please stop trying to redefine words.
This is incorrect. You have a definition error.
GRAT'ITUDE, noun [Latin gratitudo, from gratus, pleasing. See Grace.]
An emotion of the heart, excited by a favor or benefit received; a sentiment of kindness or good will towards a benefactor; thankfulness. gratitude is an agreeable emotion, consisting in or accompanied with good will to a benefactor, and a disposition to make a suitable return of benefits or services, or when no return can be made, with a desire to see the benefactor prosperous and happy. gratitude is a virtue of the highest excellence, as it implies a feeling and generous heart, and a proper sense of duty.
KINDNESS, noun [from kind, the adjective.]
1. Good will; benevolence; that temper or disposition which delights in contributing to the happiness of others, which is exercised cheerfully in gratifying their wishes, supplying their wants or alleviating their distresses; benignity of nature. kindness ever accompanies love.
There is no man whose kindness we may not sometime want, or by whose malice we may not sometime suffer.
2. Act of good will; beneficence; any act of benevolence which promotes the happiness or welfare of others. Charity, hospitality, attentions to the wants of others, etc., are deemed acts of kindness or kindnesses
NARCISSISM, noun
An exceptional interest in and admiration for yourself.
----
There's an important word in that definition of narcissism: "exceptional." Showing gratitude cannot constitute narcissism as such.
Please stop trying to redefine words.
Words don't have an objective, immutable meaning that you get to present as facts.
I am however going to concede and withdraw my further participation on the matter.
You may find this interesting: https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...
I am however going to concede and withdraw my further participation on the matter.
You may find this interesting: https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/meaning...
Words don't have an objective, immutable meaning
that's not the point. you can redefine gratitude all you want. but then your use of of the word gratitude no longer applies to the feeling i want to express when someone gives me something.
in other words: your redefinition of the word gratitude to imply narcissism does not make my expression of gratitude narcissistic.
we are talking about observable human behavior here, not about word definitions. if you believe that expressing gratitude is narcissistic then you have a problem. (and if you believe that the definition of a word changes the meaning of an act, then you have two problems)
that's not the point. you can redefine gratitude all you want. but then your use of of the word gratitude no longer applies to the feeling i want to express when someone gives me something.
in other words: your redefinition of the word gratitude to imply narcissism does not make my expression of gratitude narcissistic.
we are talking about observable human behavior here, not about word definitions. if you believe that expressing gratitude is narcissistic then you have a problem. (and if you believe that the definition of a word changes the meaning of an act, then you have two problems)
i get feelings of gratitude when i feel better than i felt before. there is no comparing to others involved.
feeling gratitude is not at all narcissistic.
feeling gratitude is not at all narcissistic.
If you like a flower, do you feel the need to thank it? No, right? A flower does what flowers do. So what's different about this scenario? The difference is you're using expression of gratitude as a tactic to manipulate.
ugh, no, the difference is that your partner is a human being that can't read minds. if you expect them to know that you are grateful without expressing it then that may seriously hurt your relationship.
i'd rather think that if you believe that everyone expressing gratitude is manipulative then that makes you the sociopath.
ugh, no, the difference is that your partner is a human being that can't read minds. if you expect them to know that you are grateful without expressing it then that may seriously hurt your relationship.
i'd rather think that if you believe that everyone expressing gratitude is manipulative then that makes you the sociopath.
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If you think of other humans in the same way as inanimate objects that provide you things I suspect you might be a sociopath.
Imagine how it feels to _receive_ daily gratitude for your part in the hamster wheel
I think this is great advice. The key is being genuine and appreciative. Take care of your neediness in other ways. If you don't know how to listen, writing lots of notes can be just another way of monopolizing the conversation. Use the note as a way to maintain the intimacy you already have.
Ps my marriage lasted happily for 37 years until the untimely death of my beloved wife.