One in four have accents mocked at work – survey(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
One in four have accents mocked at work – survey
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63494849
86 comments
I've noticed myself unintentionally using similar accent/mannerisms/colloquialisms, and found out it's called the chameleon effect:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10402679/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10402679/
This is beautiful. As a native Spanish speaker, hearing very different Spanish accents makes me want want to imitate them, and I have to confess, it's part novelty and part mocking.
Spaniards are most fun to imitate, because they have more phonemes than us Latin Americans. The differentiate they Vs and Bs, and their Ss and Zs, but we don't, so we mock ourselves more by mocking them.
Spaniards are most fun to imitate, because they have more phonemes than us Latin Americans. The differentiate they Vs and Bs, and their Ss and Zs, but we don't, so we mock ourselves more by mocking them.
I feel you! Sometimes when I hear Brits (or Scots!) speaking, I just can't help myself.
In a normal country, this sort of post could be liquidated with a comment like "People often do not grow up, and keep using playground-bullying jokes. News at 11."
But - the UK is deeply and relentlessly classist. Accents are one of the instruments that ruling classes use to keep the hoi polloi "in their place". So this issue gets highlighted routinely - and there has been a real effort to address the problem, particularly by Labour governments (starting with the Blair ones) and particularly in state-controlled media.
But - the UK is deeply and relentlessly classist. Accents are one of the instruments that ruling classes use to keep the hoi polloi "in their place". So this issue gets highlighted routinely - and there has been a real effort to address the problem, particularly by Labour governments (starting with the Blair ones) and particularly in state-controlled media.
We don't all have the same experience of life, so I preface this by saying that this is just my experience.
UK life can be somewhat tribal, like anywhere, but I don't recognise your framing of the UK as "deeply classist" nor do I think any classism is as one way as you paint. I grew up lower middle class/working class in very working class areas (council estates, ex-mining villages/towns, that sort of thing). Two of the worst things you could be in those areas was "posh" or from outside the area. So called inverse snobbery was a big thing. If anything, though, not being local was a bigger cause for feeling like an outsider.
UK life can be somewhat tribal, like anywhere, but I don't recognise your framing of the UK as "deeply classist" nor do I think any classism is as one way as you paint. I grew up lower middle class/working class in very working class areas (council estates, ex-mining villages/towns, that sort of thing). Two of the worst things you could be in those areas was "posh" or from outside the area. So called inverse snobbery was a big thing. If anything, though, not being local was a bigger cause for feeling like an outsider.
The fact is, you've got a widely-understood marker that is used to distinguish which class you belong to and a common understanding that a member of one class does not belong among members of another. The direction of hostility in your example doesn't really change things. Think about it - it's fairly common for members of the working class to resent those in the upper classes who rule them. But as kids you probably weren't thinking about what class you belonged to, or about any tensions between different classes and their origins. You just knew "the posh boy doesn't belong here" - and you picked all those things up without being explicitly told them because the UK deeply classist
The resentment may go both ways, but the effect is completely different. Some children in a mining town making fun of some visiting kid’s posh accent is probably unpleasant for the kid. Adults from that mining town being on the receiving end of class-based discrimination (whether conscious or subconscious) when being evaluated for university applications, job interviews, salary reviews or promotions is something else entirely.
The resentment may go both ways, but the effect is completely different. Some children in a mining town making fun of some visiting kid’s posh accent is probably unpleasant for the kid. Adults from that mining town being on the receiving end of class-based discrimination (whether conscious or subconscious) when being evaluated for university applications, job interviews, salary reviews or promotions is something else entirely.
I think you disproved your own point
My point was that it's too simplistic to paint classism as a one-way street somehow used to keep the "hoi polloi" down.
Fair enough: I read “classism” as cutting both ways. But given your starting point it makes sense.
Please elaborate?
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Yep, I experienced this growing up in Yorkshire with a posh accent. Inverse snobbery was rampant. I was made to feel extremely unwelcome.
Puts me in mind of the two Ronnies sketch.
Upper class Cleese: "I'm upper class, so I look down on him".
Middle class Ronnie: "I'm middle class, so I look up at him, and I look down on him".
Lower class Ronnie: "Oi know my plaice".
Upper class Cleese: "I'm upper class, so I look down on him".
Middle class Ronnie: "I'm middle class, so I look up at him, and I look down on him".
Lower class Ronnie: "Oi know my plaice".
Hmmm, are you British? Perhaps you could give some examples? I don't think the UK is relentlessly classist and accents work both ways because having an accent that is too posh in Britain is also a disadvantage.
We used to tease someone at work who had a posh accent; they pronounced Diet Coke as 'Daat coake'. Everyone makes little jokes all the time in the workplace, but if anything we possibly went a bit to far in teasing that person because we felt she was fair game being from a privileged background. You can often tell from an accent when someone has been privately educated; there are many situations where this might not be an advantage so these people also try to suppress their accents. The dim witted but arrogant privately educated schoolboy is a British cultural meme.
Having an accent from a different region can be a disadvantage just because in some regions you literally would not be able to understand what people are talking about among themselves because you don't understand a) the regional use of dialect and b) the local topics of conversation that will have specific regional words.
We used to tease someone at work who had a posh accent; they pronounced Diet Coke as 'Daat coake'. Everyone makes little jokes all the time in the workplace, but if anything we possibly went a bit to far in teasing that person because we felt she was fair game being from a privileged background. You can often tell from an accent when someone has been privately educated; there are many situations where this might not be an advantage so these people also try to suppress their accents. The dim witted but arrogant privately educated schoolboy is a British cultural meme.
Having an accent from a different region can be a disadvantage just because in some regions you literally would not be able to understand what people are talking about among themselves because you don't understand a) the regional use of dialect and b) the local topics of conversation that will have specific regional words.
> I don't think the UK is relentlessly classist
Laughs in aristocracy and Oxbridge
> having an accent that is too posh in Britain is also a disadvantage
If you want to be a football pundit, maybe. It definitely won't be in any managerial / upper-level position, or anywhere where real money is around (finance etc).
> she was fair game being from a privileged background
That's the thing - she was playing the class game wrong, if she was in a setting full of people from a different background. She was not in the right job for her class. Classism works both ways; it's still classism.
> Having an accent from a different region can be a disadvantage just because
That's the natural state of thing everywhere, if anything it's less pronounced in Britain because actual language differences are minor (compared to, say, continental Europe). This is not what people are anxious about; they are anxious about revealing they hail from a region that is outside the South-East, and hence is considered poor - with all that it entails. Not a biggie in a country where bootstrapping is lauded, but a serious problem in a classist society.
Btw, I'm not British, but I've lived on these cursed islands for enough decades to experience "the system" in all its gory details.
Laughs in aristocracy and Oxbridge
> having an accent that is too posh in Britain is also a disadvantage
If you want to be a football pundit, maybe. It definitely won't be in any managerial / upper-level position, or anywhere where real money is around (finance etc).
> she was fair game being from a privileged background
That's the thing - she was playing the class game wrong, if she was in a setting full of people from a different background. She was not in the right job for her class. Classism works both ways; it's still classism.
> Having an accent from a different region can be a disadvantage just because
That's the natural state of thing everywhere, if anything it's less pronounced in Britain because actual language differences are minor (compared to, say, continental Europe). This is not what people are anxious about; they are anxious about revealing they hail from a region that is outside the South-East, and hence is considered poor - with all that it entails. Not a biggie in a country where bootstrapping is lauded, but a serious problem in a classist society.
Btw, I'm not British, but I've lived on these cursed islands for enough decades to experience "the system" in all its gory details.
> I don't think the UK is relentlessly classist and accents work both ways because having an accent that is too posh in Britain is also a disadvantage
It's well documented that fee-paying private schools (so called 'public' schools) contribute disproportionally to UK politics [0]. Eton alone [1] has produced 20 prime ministers (including Johnson and Cameron). These schools require wealthy parents, and thus tend to exclude the poorer paid.
Although you are much more likely to hear regional accents in British media than you used to, social mobility is more constrained now than it has been in living memory. Actors are another group of people where parental wealth correlates to access to drama schools.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_(United_Kingdom) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College#Politics
It's well documented that fee-paying private schools (so called 'public' schools) contribute disproportionally to UK politics [0]. Eton alone [1] has produced 20 prime ministers (including Johnson and Cameron). These schools require wealthy parents, and thus tend to exclude the poorer paid.
Although you are much more likely to hear regional accents in British media than you used to, social mobility is more constrained now than it has been in living memory. Actors are another group of people where parental wealth correlates to access to drama schools.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_school_(United_Kingdom) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College#Politics
> Hmmm, are you British? Perhaps you could give some examples?
> We used to tease someone at work who had a posh accent
> because we felt she was fair game being from a privileged background
Isn't this British classism?
"We felt she's from a different social class, so we teased her because of that".
I remember when shopping with my wife who just moved to the UK, a retail worker was chatting with us and she was explaining to us something along the lines "Oh you know like when you go shopping in Tesco... or if you're posh then it's Waitrose.".
Isn't this subtle, unconscious British classism too, that says who you are based on where you shop?
> We used to tease someone at work who had a posh accent
> because we felt she was fair game being from a privileged background
Isn't this British classism?
"We felt she's from a different social class, so we teased her because of that".
I remember when shopping with my wife who just moved to the UK, a retail worker was chatting with us and she was explaining to us something along the lines "Oh you know like when you go shopping in Tesco... or if you're posh then it's Waitrose.".
Isn't this subtle, unconscious British classism too, that says who you are based on where you shop?
It isn't subtle at all. My partner recently asked me what the equivalent layering of supermarkets would be in Italy, and I just couldn't - because there isn't such a layering there (or rather, it's layered by different criteria, i.e. political and regional differences).
Obviously it's important to emphasise kindness and respect, but with regards to light-hearted jabs, it's important to note the direction you’re punching. If you are mocking someone who’s had a magnitude more opportunity and investment and education more than you, it isn’t hugely a problem for them. If it goes the other way toward someone who’s had to massively struggle to get where they are it undermines them. A punch is a punch, but surely Mike Tyson punching a pensioner is worse than the opposite?
Power dynamics are the same actions having different outcomes.
I’m British and I love a good bit of banter as it shows trust, but taken too far or done with any significant power asymmetry becomes toxic very quickly.
I guess perhaps fitting the working-class box is "cooler" in popular culture, though.
Here's another example: Interactions with the police.
As someone who, whilst though I grew up poor, is white, eloquent and has a Surrey accent, the various times I've been arrested I've been able to deftly fit into the "good citizen who's made a mistake box" and got off with minimal consequences. If I talked like I was from the estate or had a darker complexion, these interactions would sway toward the "bloody criminal" box and I would have had the book thrown at me.
Power dynamics are the same actions having different outcomes.
I’m British and I love a good bit of banter as it shows trust, but taken too far or done with any significant power asymmetry becomes toxic very quickly.
I guess perhaps fitting the working-class box is "cooler" in popular culture, though.
Here's another example: Interactions with the police.
As someone who, whilst though I grew up poor, is white, eloquent and has a Surrey accent, the various times I've been arrested I've been able to deftly fit into the "good citizen who's made a mistake box" and got off with minimal consequences. If I talked like I was from the estate or had a darker complexion, these interactions would sway toward the "bloody criminal" box and I would have had the book thrown at me.
Classism is a two-way street. Or more like a pyramid where everyone's very protective of their level.
oi hent had that praablem boh. I cun talk loike I do at hum, withoout much hoohar.[1]
I have lost my "cuntree" accent, because that shit is a far bigger impediment to getting a job than actual class. (and in some cases race, but thats more complex)
but, for those who are outside of the UK and want to understand, its hard to translate. There are three things that you are judged on here in the UK, and they are all sort of related to class:
o Your clothes
o your attitude
o your accent
All of these are proxies for class. The most important thing to be aware of is that race is not normally a signifier for class. to use a recent example:
Rishi, our new prime minister, is posh as fuck. Posher, but not by much, than Liz truss. However less posh than Boris, as he is a no fooling aristocrat.
If we compare Rishi to Priti Patel, former Home secretary, who is middle-middle class at best. The differentiator is accent, not wealth. Rishi is richer than the king, but thats not why he's posh.
That is not to say that race is not a factor. its just nowhere near as big of a thing as it is in america.
The advantage is that you can change your class, its much harder to change your race. However your class at the time of your birth leaves an inprint/set of habits that are difficult to overcome. I do know someone who was raised on a london estate with a strong SAAAAAF LAAANDEN accent, who now is a QC/KC (senior lawyer) and has a received pronunciation accent. It wasnt until I met her parents and sister that I realised how much she'd changed.
[1] https://youtu.be/Feb-CdHBXc8?t=114 Although the mum has quite a soft central norfolk possibly norwich accent.
I have lost my "cuntree" accent, because that shit is a far bigger impediment to getting a job than actual class. (and in some cases race, but thats more complex)
but, for those who are outside of the UK and want to understand, its hard to translate. There are three things that you are judged on here in the UK, and they are all sort of related to class:
o Your clothes
o your attitude
o your accent
All of these are proxies for class. The most important thing to be aware of is that race is not normally a signifier for class. to use a recent example:
Rishi, our new prime minister, is posh as fuck. Posher, but not by much, than Liz truss. However less posh than Boris, as he is a no fooling aristocrat.
If we compare Rishi to Priti Patel, former Home secretary, who is middle-middle class at best. The differentiator is accent, not wealth. Rishi is richer than the king, but thats not why he's posh.
That is not to say that race is not a factor. its just nowhere near as big of a thing as it is in america.
The advantage is that you can change your class, its much harder to change your race. However your class at the time of your birth leaves an inprint/set of habits that are difficult to overcome. I do know someone who was raised on a london estate with a strong SAAAAAF LAAANDEN accent, who now is a QC/KC (senior lawyer) and has a received pronunciation accent. It wasnt until I met her parents and sister that I realised how much she'd changed.
[1] https://youtu.be/Feb-CdHBXc8?t=114 Although the mum has quite a soft central norfolk possibly norwich accent.
I find that UK businessmen tend to always first look at your shoes, and I have seen peoples behaviours change based on the type, perceived exclusivity and cost of the shoes. "Suits should look decent, but the shoes makes the man" is what I found to be true.
Are foreigners assigned a class too or is it a native thing only?
Yes and no.
A french person of any colour or location is instantly stylish and metropolitan. It doesn't matter if you come from the slums of Paris or Marseille, or some 4 house village in the middle, you, as a french person represent fashion, food, cutting remarks and wine.
Germany: (dont mention the war) represent punctuality, lack of humour, process engineering. Artists are not german.
Italian: hand waving, sun glasses, food.
USA: crassness with a lack of class (which is subtly different from being working class)
Japanese: The person you are speaking to is from a long an famous line of culturally important families.
Now, those are the fun ones. This is where it gets a bit dicey, so please don't think I share these opinions. these are illustrative generalisations
Eastern europeans: Imagine you are a family that has the same name as the villiage you live near. You own an estate, its been in the family for years, and you have labourers that have also been with the family for years. You hold them in high esteem, but they are very much working class. THats how they are viewed. "useful working class"
Anyone from the indian subcontinent(pakistan, india, bangladesh) or looks like they are from there (see Ugandan expulsion) with a non received pronunciation accent, will generally be treated as working class. Its not universal, but its a strong assumption. Think small shop owner, pharmacist, etc etc etc.
North african: Good question not sure
west african: Instantly assume they are from an estate in lAAANDEN.
East african: Also not sure.
A french person of any colour or location is instantly stylish and metropolitan. It doesn't matter if you come from the slums of Paris or Marseille, or some 4 house village in the middle, you, as a french person represent fashion, food, cutting remarks and wine.
Germany: (dont mention the war) represent punctuality, lack of humour, process engineering. Artists are not german.
Italian: hand waving, sun glasses, food.
USA: crassness with a lack of class (which is subtly different from being working class)
Japanese: The person you are speaking to is from a long an famous line of culturally important families.
Now, those are the fun ones. This is where it gets a bit dicey, so please don't think I share these opinions. these are illustrative generalisations
Eastern europeans: Imagine you are a family that has the same name as the villiage you live near. You own an estate, its been in the family for years, and you have labourers that have also been with the family for years. You hold them in high esteem, but they are very much working class. THats how they are viewed. "useful working class"
Anyone from the indian subcontinent(pakistan, india, bangladesh) or looks like they are from there (see Ugandan expulsion) with a non received pronunciation accent, will generally be treated as working class. Its not universal, but its a strong assumption. Think small shop owner, pharmacist, etc etc etc.
North african: Good question not sure
west african: Instantly assume they are from an estate in lAAANDEN.
East african: Also not sure.
>Eastern europeans: Imagine you are a family that has the same name as the villiage you live near. You own an estate, its been in the family for years, and you have labourers that have also been with the family for years. You hold them in high esteem, but they are very much working class. THats how they are viewed. "useful working class"
There are, of course, two kinds of Eastern Europeans. There's the kind you mention, and there's the kind that own everything.
Luckily for the British, they're easy to differentiate based on the amount of fur accessories.
There are, of course, two kinds of Eastern Europeans. There's the kind you mention, and there's the kind that own everything.
Luckily for the British, they're easy to differentiate based on the amount of fur accessories.
> ...not sure... Also not sure.
Well, you are being quite polite here. Some people would say "working class", and some would suggest the contrary.
Well, you are being quite polite here. Some people would say "working class", and some would suggest the contrary.
Which in it's self is an interesting point, britians are wonderfully crap at spotting class in other nations.
But to your other point, yes, I am deliberately avoiding writing that viewpoint down....
But to your other point, yes, I am deliberately avoiding writing that viewpoint down....
yikes.
I had a think about this.
Example: our PM, a man of Indian heritage (though British) who speaks RP.
An Indian man with a really strong accent is going to be judged as being significantly lower status.
I think it'd be the same pretty much across the scale. Like imagining a Polish software developer vs a builder and the latter would probably have a rougher accent.
A strong southern American accent, etc.
Example: our PM, a man of Indian heritage (though British) who speaks RP.
An Indian man with a really strong accent is going to be judged as being significantly lower status.
I think it'd be the same pretty much across the scale. Like imagining a Polish software developer vs a builder and the latter would probably have a rougher accent.
A strong southern American accent, etc.
as a German guy who had the outside look in living in the UK for a while, not really. A lot of the markers of class that Brits are used to picking up just don't really apply.
That said I found it absolutely wild how much of a sixth sense Brits have to figure out where someone hails from. And also the extent to which people unlearn behaviors.
That said I found it absolutely wild how much of a sixth sense Brits have to figure out where someone hails from. And also the extent to which people unlearn behaviors.
Like gaijins in Japan, foreigners in UK are not typically expected to participate in the system at all.
I spent the last 15 years in London and I strongly disagree. Not only are foreigners judged (perhaps subconsciously) on how British they can be, where you came from initially matters a great deal as well, which is why I worked on loosing my Eastern European accent.
That being said, over those 15 years, I was only openly discriminated against once.
That being said, over those 15 years, I was only openly discriminated against once.
You aren't assigned one, its just a thing people pick up on. Everywhere has it to some degree, for example "White trash" in the US compared to "Frat boys".
> for example "White trash" in the US compared to "Frat boys".
As someone who grew up in the U.S., those have a pretty large overlap to me
As someone who grew up in the U.S., those have a pretty large overlap to me
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For better or worse, the prevalence of US media and the "melting pot" effect of larger cities is gradually flattening out British accents and slang. But at the same time, the country also runs on prejudice and going to the right school. (Rishi Sunak is celebrating the achievement of being the first UK PM from a minority background - he went to one of the less popular Oxford colleges https://cherwell.org/2022/10/25/diversity-triumphs-uk-finall... )
I came across an article the other day claiming that some American kids were actually picking up an Australian accent (and a few Australian slang words like "dunny") over the pandemic thanks to the Australian kids' show Bluey being available on Disney+ in the US. I wouldn't be totally surprised if that effect was real.
That's fine by us, we mock the American accent relentlessly!
Disraeli was from a minority background, and in the same sort of overclass way.
The UK is a hierarchical society enforced by those at every level.
It's ingrained, having certain accents is an advantage.
It's ingrained, having certain accents is an advantage.
Is it much different than the US? I hear a lot of anecdotes suggesting people with certain accents in the US getting criticised (even when it's not a proxy for race - e.g. Boston or southern accents), whereas accents closer to General American seem to have a social advantage. Some Americans even maintain two accents.
Having grown up in Central Texas, I absolutely have a Texas drawl in my back pocket whenever I want it, but generally my accent is just standard American + overuse of "y'all". The drawl comes out usually for comedic effect or if I recently talked to my dad on the phone. I don't think I've considered either aspect of my accent advantageous. I might feel differently if my accent was deeply southern, however.
I have to say that being from the UK (and a class oblivious Scot) I found people in Texas referring to me as "sir" deeply disturbing.
Exactly this. The more north in UK you come from, the less class status you have by default. I am honestly surprised that BBC needed a survey for that.
> I am honestly surprised that BBC needed a survey for that.
Obviously they don't, what they need is to occasionally justify activity to redress the well-known imbalance. One might argue this need is at its highest, in a climate where the last 5 prime ministers are Oxford graduates.
Obviously they don't, what they need is to occasionally justify activity to redress the well-known imbalance. One might argue this need is at its highest, in a climate where the last 5 prime ministers are Oxford graduates.
"The more north in UK you come from, the less class status you have by default."
As someone who comes from the North East of Scotland I'm not sure I'd agree with that... then again I might be blissfully unaware of my lowly status in life.
As someone who comes from the North East of Scotland I'm not sure I'd agree with that... then again I might be blissfully unaware of my lowly status in life.
My partner and I both grew up in Yorkshire, and she has a strong Yorkshire accent.
She trained to be a doctor in Nottingham, where she was typically undermined by other doctors and patients due to her accent and the percieved professionalism that is lacking with that accent.
We now live in the North East, and she hasn't had a repeated experience from anyone local - just those with a more 'southernly' accent. The respect she's given is night and day in difference.
In conversation with her colleagues, I asked if the inverse was true for them. Did their southern accent cause a barrier with the patients in the North East? None of her colleagues could comprehend the question, let alone could provide a clear answer.
She trained to be a doctor in Nottingham, where she was typically undermined by other doctors and patients due to her accent and the percieved professionalism that is lacking with that accent.
We now live in the North East, and she hasn't had a repeated experience from anyone local - just those with a more 'southernly' accent. The respect she's given is night and day in difference.
In conversation with her colleagues, I asked if the inverse was true for them. Did their southern accent cause a barrier with the patients in the North East? None of her colleagues could comprehend the question, let alone could provide a clear answer.
I would not be surprised if the issue of accents being a discriminant (positive or negative) was common everywhere.
In France we have a "standard" accent (the one you hear on TV or on the national radio) which corresponds more or less to Paris and the surrounding regions. Someone speaking with this accent is "neutral".
We then have an accent that is not related to a region but to the kind of neighborhood called "cité" with large buildings with working class inhabitants (and immigrants). It puts you either in the "homies" category, or in the "touch luck to find a better job" one. People who come from these places, when they want to move up with jobs, will aggressively work on loosing this accent.
Finally, there are the regional accents that are not very visible outside of the region. The southern one is very distinctive and a northern one has been made famous by the movie "Welcome to the Sticks". They tend to vanish if you come from these regions but live/work away from it because there is a gradual move towards the "neutral" accent. people who use it, however, are not really discriminated (this is rather a folklori accent), but you do not hear it much. there are exceptions such as one of our prime ministers.
Then there is a specific posh accent which has strongly fallen out of fashion and people who were raised with it actively try to use the "neutral" one as well.
In France we have a "standard" accent (the one you hear on TV or on the national radio) which corresponds more or less to Paris and the surrounding regions. Someone speaking with this accent is "neutral".
We then have an accent that is not related to a region but to the kind of neighborhood called "cité" with large buildings with working class inhabitants (and immigrants). It puts you either in the "homies" category, or in the "touch luck to find a better job" one. People who come from these places, when they want to move up with jobs, will aggressively work on loosing this accent.
Finally, there are the regional accents that are not very visible outside of the region. The southern one is very distinctive and a northern one has been made famous by the movie "Welcome to the Sticks". They tend to vanish if you come from these regions but live/work away from it because there is a gradual move towards the "neutral" accent. people who use it, however, are not really discriminated (this is rather a folklori accent), but you do not hear it much. there are exceptions such as one of our prime ministers.
Then there is a specific posh accent which has strongly fallen out of fashion and people who were raised with it actively try to use the "neutral" one as well.
In my experience, there's a cohort of middle-aged British men out there who absolutely cannot help but demonstrate their "oirish" accent as soon as they are in Ireland or meet an Irish person. It's a bit weird but I try to take it as an endearment.
That said, Irish people tend to be very fond of accent mimickery too.
That said, Irish people tend to be very fond of accent mimickery too.
When I moved to Ireland in 2014 I made the mistake of having an Oxbridge accent, and there was quite a few people who did not take kindly to that. One train station attendee put up a gone for lunch sign in my face mid sentence, and it wasn't even past breakfast time. I was being perfectly courteous and was just having some trouble understanding how to charge my leap card.
That's when I realised, Oxbridge is not good if you want people to not instantly dislike you in Ireland.
That's when I realised, Oxbridge is not good if you want people to not instantly dislike you in Ireland.
Ouch, well that wasn't very nice, sorry to hear that. Since you mentioned using a Leap card a few years ago I'm guessing you were in Dublin. I live in Cork, we're much friendlier down here! How have you found your experiences since?
My partner is from the East Midlands and of course her accent is quite different, but on a couple of occasions my partner has gotten an angry scowl from some random old man, usually in some small-town pub.
I thought anti-English sentiment had gone the way of the dodo — when I was a kid it was more common — but I guess it's still hanging on in places :(
My partner is from the East Midlands and of course her accent is quite different, but on a couple of occasions my partner has gotten an angry scowl from some random old man, usually in some small-town pub.
I thought anti-English sentiment had gone the way of the dodo — when I was a kid it was more common — but I guess it's still hanging on in places :(
I think many with strong "regional" accents would trade a minor train station inconvenience over lifelong pay disparity and diminished career prospects.
what is an oxbridge accent?
cambridgeshire and oxfordshire accents are rather different
most of the students attending won't be from either
as someone who did attend: I can count the amount of people I met that spoke RP on one hand
cambridgeshire and oxfordshire accents are rather different
most of the students attending won't be from either
as someone who did attend: I can count the amount of people I met that spoke RP on one hand
Haven't personally heard of an "Oxbridge accent" but my brain filled it in subconsciously.
To add something coincidental to this subject that happened yesterday:
I'm in Nottingham in my holidays at the moment — I spoke to an elderly man who was originally from the north of England and he happened to bring up accents.
He was in the army for a few years and he said he had to change his accent because [putting on a strong northern accent] "if oi talk loike this, people thought oi was a blimmin' idiot".
I'm in Nottingham in my holidays at the moment — I spoke to an elderly man who was originally from the north of England and he happened to bring up accents.
He was in the army for a few years and he said he had to change his accent because [putting on a strong northern accent] "if oi talk loike this, people thought oi was a blimmin' idiot".
If you want to understand how messed up the UK class/accent system is and how damaging for all sides, there's an episode of below deck med. It plays out between a private school chef and a northern stewardess.
I am astonished by what I am reading in the comments. I've been living in the UK for almost 6 years now and not a single time I've felt I've been judged or mistreated because of my accent or even my lack of language skills the first year I was here. Worth mentioning that I definitely don't look like I am native (I am from Africa). Worth mentioning too that I have not been living in a bubble, exposed myself to a short set of interactions. Mind boggling.
People with foreign accents typically escape the ladder of judgement. I think it is well observed that people with various American or Australian or European accents aren't really pigeonholed to some specific class on basis of their accent alone.
as someone who went to a bad school in a poor area with a regional accent, now working mostly with people who went to independent schools in the South East: I think I've had one person very mildly comment on my accent in my professional career (pronunciation of "garage")
I wouldn't pay that much attention to the comments as it's almost entirely the usual set of "UK bad" professional contrarians
(not to say that the class system still isn't prevalent, it definitely is, but not in the way they say)
I wouldn't pay that much attention to the comments as it's almost entirely the usual set of "UK bad" professional contrarians
(not to say that the class system still isn't prevalent, it definitely is, but not in the way they say)
> They said those with northern English or Midlands accents were more likely to worry about the way they spoke.
> Many of those who were mocked for the way they spoke admitted anxiety over their future career prospects because of perceived prejudiced attitudes.
The biggest concern for northerners regarding their future careers is the continued and unchecked concentration of power and wealth towards London and other major cities. Their accent is close to the least of their worries.
> Many of those who were mocked for the way they spoke admitted anxiety over their future career prospects because of perceived prejudiced attitudes.
The biggest concern for northerners regarding their future careers is the continued and unchecked concentration of power and wealth towards London and other major cities. Their accent is close to the least of their worries.
> continued and unchecked concentration of power and wealth towards London and other major cities.
Potato, potahto. The concentration of power and the prejudice are not unrelated. But also, when you say "other major cities" .. the number 2 and 3, Manchester and Birmingham, both count as "northerner". Power is really just being focused on London and Tory marginal constituencies. Those are the places that really get attention.
#4 city is supposedly "Leeds-Bradford", which I don't like as a definition and Bradford is blighted by a literal crater as well as the usual urban problems.
Potato, potahto. The concentration of power and the prejudice are not unrelated. But also, when you say "other major cities" .. the number 2 and 3, Manchester and Birmingham, both count as "northerner". Power is really just being focused on London and Tory marginal constituencies. Those are the places that really get attention.
#4 city is supposedly "Leeds-Bradford", which I don't like as a definition and Bradford is blighted by a literal crater as well as the usual urban problems.
Or you could be from Philly and have people are fun of you everywhere you go for the use of "jawn" and "water".
Oh yeah, the Philly is strong and distinct.
My accent isn’t Deep South thick, but it’s there. I’ve embraced my use of “ain’t”, “y’all”, “fixin to”, and “whatnot”. When poked fun at, I generally respond with a “bless your heart”. Which people misunderstand as politeness.
My accent isn’t Deep South thick, but it’s there. I’ve embraced my use of “ain’t”, “y’all”, “fixin to”, and “whatnot”. When poked fun at, I generally respond with a “bless your heart”. Which people misunderstand as politeness.
I'd like to know more about UK accents. From what I hear, during colonization of North America, UK spoke similarly to how US speaks now, but since then US accents stayed somewhat the same, while UK accents drifted a lot. Apparently, at a certain time in history, in UK, it was posh to speak differently. Was that a form of classism?
The opening scene of My Fair Lady where Henry Higgins the linguist is able to spot which area of London someone comes from by a few words in their accent is a slight exaggeration, but not much. The UK developed hyper-regional accents (unavoidable in the pre-mass-media age), and poshness being a particular set of families who socialise with each other and are educated together converged on its own accent. Especially among people who've been to Oxford or Cambridge. This effect got magnified by the early BBC being based in southern England and comprised of educated people, leading to a distinctive "BBC English".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
(Also factor in the bans at various times on speaking Gaelic or Welsh; children were being beaten for speaking Welsh at school well into the 1970s, but the plan to extinguish the language never quite succeeded.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation
(Also factor in the bans at various times on speaking Gaelic or Welsh; children were being beaten for speaking Welsh at school well into the 1970s, but the plan to extinguish the language never quite succeeded.)
Growing up in the 1980s, I could tell from their accent whether a child came from Oakham (where I lived), Whissendine (five miles away), or Melton Mowbray (five miles beyond that).
30/40 years later the differences are still there, but increasingly ironed out by the spread of a generic southern English accent. Where I now live in rural Oxfordshire, the traditional local accent is a definite minority, particularly in those under 40. There are little tell-tale vowels and phrases if you look closely for them, but they're more like variations on a common accent.
That said, Midlands and northern accents seem to be fairly resilient, at least for now.
30/40 years later the differences are still there, but increasingly ironed out by the spread of a generic southern English accent. Where I now live in rural Oxfordshire, the traditional local accent is a definite minority, particularly in those under 40. There are little tell-tale vowels and phrases if you look closely for them, but they're more like variations on a common accent.
That said, Midlands and northern accents seem to be fairly resilient, at least for now.
> but the plan to extinguish [Welsh] never quite succeeded
Political winds just revived what was effectively a dead language, in the nick of time.
Political winds just revived what was effectively a dead language, in the nick of time.
It wasn't dead by accident, it was policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin%27s_phonetic...
Is an interesting insight into the accents of the new country of the USA.
Its important to remember that the USA has a very different understanding of class compared to the UK.
Its also important to understand that accents change wildly within 50 miles. (sheffield, bolton & leeds are all divergent so are manchester birmingham and liverpool)
Is an interesting insight into the accents of the new country of the USA.
Its important to remember that the USA has a very different understanding of class compared to the UK.
Its also important to understand that accents change wildly within 50 miles. (sheffield, bolton & leeds are all divergent so are manchester birmingham and liverpool)
You don't even need to go for big cities - folks from Chorley and Preston can have very different accents.
I find this article amusing because the clue is right there in the name.
Received Pronunciation is just that, received.
You can learn it, in fact it has been and continues to be taught both in schools, in elocution lessons, and in educational videos online.
I sincerely doubt that this is a purely UK based phenomenon. The example that comes to mind is the stereotypical "black man with white accent" from US sitcoms. I don't know how that works in the real world, but I'd feel fairly confident in placing a bet that there aren't many white collar CEOs who sound like they're from the hood.
Received Pronunciation is just that, received.
You can learn it, in fact it has been and continues to be taught both in schools, in elocution lessons, and in educational videos online.
I sincerely doubt that this is a purely UK based phenomenon. The example that comes to mind is the stereotypical "black man with white accent" from US sitcoms. I don't know how that works in the real world, but I'd feel fairly confident in placing a bet that there aren't many white collar CEOs who sound like they're from the hood.
The onus should not be on a person changing an important part of themselves because of some classist people.
To many people their accent is an important part of who they are, part of their identity and one that can't simply be switched out for 8 hours a day.
To many people their accent is an important part of who they are, part of their identity and one that can't simply be switched out for 8 hours a day.
I agree. RP is part of an identity. One which can be adopted.
In fact, I'd probably go as far as to say that one of the reasons it has the cachet it does is precisely because of that, because of what it's not.
In fact, I'd probably go as far as to say that one of the reasons it has the cachet it does is precisely because of that, because of what it's not.
I don’t know why the onus should be on classist people stopping being classist. One may as well say that it is part of their character.
This is getting traction because the London media class has noticed people taking the mickey out of their adoption of the vocal fry from their New York brethren. They don't want regionals laughing at them.
It's vitally important that Southerners keep talking in silly accents. It's useful to spot people who are going to try to steal your stuff using emails.
It's vitally important that Southerners keep talking in silly accents. It's useful to spot people who are going to try to steal your stuff using emails.
I'm working class as f - raised to communicate with a strong regional accent, using regional slang, combined of course with at least one or two profanities per sentence. I view the phase, "what's up, dickhead?" as friendly way to greet a friend.
I don't know anyone in my family who works a middle class job. You're either unemployed or postman around here. Growing up my school was so bad you were lucky to leave with a few GCSEs. In general you were far more likely to leave with a kid or a smoking addiction.
My whole adult life has been a learning experience. I remember first being confused when people mocked how I spoke in university. It wasn't just one or two people either, literally everyone I spoke with would comment on how I spoke.
In terms of work, I'm not sure how it's impacted my ability to find work, but I don't think it's helped. Several years ago when I was still learning how to not be working class I had an interview in which I was asked a question I knew I knew the answer to, but just couldn't quite recall. I said something like, "fuck, I know this but can't remember". I didn't swear consciously, it's just automatic, but the interviewer lost it and terminated the interview on the spot saying I was wasting his time. That really upset me as I was having a hard enough time finding work as it was.
At one point in my career I ended up working for a start-up incubator in London which was interesting. Everyone there was unbelievably well spoken and while at that point I was starting to get good at not coming across as working class I did get comments whenever we'd go out drinking because I'd temporarily find it difficult to speak proper. Not nasty comments or anything though - they were all really nice - but people obviously noticed and were confused why someone in real life was talking like they were on Jeremy Kyle.
I think the hardest part of it is having to self-censor my sense of humour because what I deem offensive or unacceptable is completely out of whack with those I work with. My humour seems to be quite mean which I think is normal for working class people. Like I can joke about literally anything with school friends, but I have to be very careful with jokes at work. Calling someone a gayboy as a joke for doing something a bit gay is unacceptable for example. I also don't seem to know when people are being mean. Middle class people tend to be very easily offended and will hold in their feelings so it's hard to know if you're offending them. I'm not used to that. Growing up people would speak very plainly with each other so that's by far the hardest part for me.
I think I'm quite an extreme example of this class divide though. I'm also not sure what the answer is. I judge people who speak like myself force more harshly than anyone I work with. Unlike people I work with I know people from my background are generally trashy.
I don't know anyone in my family who works a middle class job. You're either unemployed or postman around here. Growing up my school was so bad you were lucky to leave with a few GCSEs. In general you were far more likely to leave with a kid or a smoking addiction.
My whole adult life has been a learning experience. I remember first being confused when people mocked how I spoke in university. It wasn't just one or two people either, literally everyone I spoke with would comment on how I spoke.
In terms of work, I'm not sure how it's impacted my ability to find work, but I don't think it's helped. Several years ago when I was still learning how to not be working class I had an interview in which I was asked a question I knew I knew the answer to, but just couldn't quite recall. I said something like, "fuck, I know this but can't remember". I didn't swear consciously, it's just automatic, but the interviewer lost it and terminated the interview on the spot saying I was wasting his time. That really upset me as I was having a hard enough time finding work as it was.
At one point in my career I ended up working for a start-up incubator in London which was interesting. Everyone there was unbelievably well spoken and while at that point I was starting to get good at not coming across as working class I did get comments whenever we'd go out drinking because I'd temporarily find it difficult to speak proper. Not nasty comments or anything though - they were all really nice - but people obviously noticed and were confused why someone in real life was talking like they were on Jeremy Kyle.
I think the hardest part of it is having to self-censor my sense of humour because what I deem offensive or unacceptable is completely out of whack with those I work with. My humour seems to be quite mean which I think is normal for working class people. Like I can joke about literally anything with school friends, but I have to be very careful with jokes at work. Calling someone a gayboy as a joke for doing something a bit gay is unacceptable for example. I also don't seem to know when people are being mean. Middle class people tend to be very easily offended and will hold in their feelings so it's hard to know if you're offending them. I'm not used to that. Growing up people would speak very plainly with each other so that's by far the hardest part for me.
I think I'm quite an extreme example of this class divide though. I'm also not sure what the answer is. I judge people who speak like myself force more harshly than anyone I work with. Unlike people I work with I know people from my background are generally trashy.
Sounds like discrimination
Yeah, of course. This doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone who’s heard how some of these people talk.
Ridiculous accents and the mockery of them are a proud British tradition.
Ridiculous accents and the mockery of them are a proud British tradition.
You are correct, of course, but as a Northerner who has lived in in the South for over 10 years, the best advice I could give any young person would be to try and lose your regional accent as soon as you are able.
Few, other than a close circle of friends, will openly mock you but the silent majority will judge you as soon as you utter a word.
Few, other than a close circle of friends, will openly mock you but the silent majority will judge you as soon as you utter a word.
I got this in London as a midlander, too. People assume because I am from between London and Manchester I must be a brummie.
After clearing customs, I managed to get the rest of the way through the airport, through “the tube”, onto a train to the midlands, a taxi ride, and checked into my hotel with hardly any talking.
The front desk person dutifully told me that the restaurant was closed, but room service available (this is pre door dash, et. al.).
I got to my room and unpacked, with the TV playing in the background, as was my way back then and now. I did some stretching, and then decided to order some dinner.
I picked up the phone, dialed the room service number, and after I was greeted by a pleasant “Room Service?” I immediately felt my body wanting to reply with terribly Monty Python voice of American’s trying to sound British.
I couldn’t stop myself. I could just feel it wanting to happen.
So I hung up.
Confused, and somewhat alarmed because I had 3 days of corporate training to perform and that’s not going to go well if I have an accent trying to break out of me like a teenage boy’s voice breaking uncontrollably, I turned off the TV and tried practicing talking.
Even alone in my room, it took me a few minutes to try and get it under control. I grew up moving quite a bit between places with people from all over, so I don’t, myself, have a particularly stable accent. It was especially true when I was younger.
I finally worked myself up to remake that call to room service, and I managed to force myself speak with a right proper American accent…