Exploring Mastodon(martinfowler.com)
martinfowler.com
Exploring Mastodon
https://martinfowler.com/articles/exploring-mastodon.html
247 comments
>I found this disappointing because it means that for there to be a critical mass of content in a particular community so that it gains in popularity, then that particular community in that particular instance has to become popular on its own, instead of all instances contributing to one big community
Totally agree. The whole server focus is not user friendly or intuitive.
As an example I finally found someone to follow and decided to look at the people rhey were following, but it would only show me people from that server.
The complete lack of discoverability is jarring. Really not sure Mastodon is ready for mass market.
Totally agree. The whole server focus is not user friendly or intuitive.
As an example I finally found someone to follow and decided to look at the people rhey were following, but it would only show me people from that server.
The complete lack of discoverability is jarring. Really not sure Mastodon is ready for mass market.
I used to agree but I don't anymore. The crucial point, and the reason reddit works so much today, is moderation. If anyone can post to a generic programming forum, it will be automatically submerged under spam. There is no way around it. Centralizing the rendezvous point means it is possible to settle on rules and appoint moderators to enforce them.
Note, though, that federation as implemented by the fediverse means that I post content on my instance, and you post content to your instance, and both are "tagged" with a central identifier. It is definitely possible to get all content from all instances in one place.
There are interesting ways towards decentralized moderation: basically, anyone post anything, moderators "pick" what they deem correct, and you as a user "pick" moderators. When you feel a moderator isn't doing a correct job, you switch the set of moderators. But there still is an element of centralization in that moderators decide what is good and what is bad. And if the history of computing taught us one thing, it's that it is impossibly hard to migrate people away from default settings.
Note, though, that federation as implemented by the fediverse means that I post content on my instance, and you post content to your instance, and both are "tagged" with a central identifier. It is definitely possible to get all content from all instances in one place.
There are interesting ways towards decentralized moderation: basically, anyone post anything, moderators "pick" what they deem correct, and you as a user "pick" moderators. When you feel a moderator isn't doing a correct job, you switch the set of moderators. But there still is an element of centralization in that moderators decide what is good and what is bad. And if the history of computing taught us one thing, it's that it is impossibly hard to migrate people away from default settings.
There are three timelines:
- Home Timeline: The people you follow
- Local Timeline: The people on your instance
- Fed Timeline: The people on the fediverse
You take your pick. Be as siloed as you want. On the fed timeline, block people and instances, or just let the unfiltered hive mind flow over you.
When you want something quieter, go to the local or home timelines.
- Home Timeline: The people you follow
- Local Timeline: The people on your instance
- Fed Timeline: The people on the fediverse
You take your pick. Be as siloed as you want. On the fed timeline, block people and instances, or just let the unfiltered hive mind flow over you.
When you want something quieter, go to the local or home timelines.
Keep in mind that your local view of the Federated timeline is instance dependent.
The Federated timeline is best described as "all content from other instances by profiles followed by accounts on your own instance".
If you're running, say, a single-user instance, the "Federated" and "Home" timelines will be identical.
If you're on a large instance, the Federated timeline will be fairly comprehensive (and tends to clock along quite quickly). If you're on a smaller instance, the timeline will generally be far smaller. And of course, if your instance restricts (through any of various levels of blocking) remote instances or accounts, the Federated timeline will lack those as well.
Put another way: there's no such thing as a "universal" Fediverse feed, at least not without some very heavy-handed (and widely discourage) automated following.
The Federated timeline is best described as "all content from other instances by profiles followed by accounts on your own instance".
If you're running, say, a single-user instance, the "Federated" and "Home" timelines will be identical.
If you're on a large instance, the Federated timeline will be fairly comprehensive (and tends to clock along quite quickly). If you're on a smaller instance, the timeline will generally be far smaller. And of course, if your instance restricts (through any of various levels of blocking) remote instances or accounts, the Federated timeline will lack those as well.
Put another way: there's no such thing as a "universal" Fediverse feed, at least not without some very heavy-handed (and widely discourage) automated following.
There's the added complication of relays: For smaller instances in particular, relays can fill in the federated timeline.
Right, though I'm familiar with that only in theory.
Are there relay instances / pointers on how that works?
Are there relay instances / pointers on how that works?
This has some (very basic) info:
https://joinfediverse.wiki/Fediverse_relays
As far as I understand it (and with the caveat I've only recently started digging into the protocols) the general concept is that ActivityPub basically has inboxes you post to, and outboxes containing the public feed, which you can follow (asking them to post you stuff), so a relay just needs an outbox that contains the full public feed of an instance, and a shared inbox that accepts things that doesn't have a single recipients. Now all you need is a message pump that takes things posted to its inbox and passes it on to all the subscribers of the relay.
As far as I understand it (and with the caveat I've only recently started digging into the protocols) the general concept is that ActivityPub basically has inboxes you post to, and outboxes containing the public feed, which you can follow (asking them to post you stuff), so a relay just needs an outbox that contains the full public feed of an instance, and a shared inbox that accepts things that doesn't have a single recipients. Now all you need is a message pump that takes things posted to its inbox and passes it on to all the subscribers of the relay.
Thanks.
And yeah, that's ... very roughly ... my understanding.
Though a relay would have multiple instance's feeds, ideally.
One question I have is whether or not larger instances might serve as gating relays for smaller ones. Sort of a hub-and-spoke / leafnode (w/ reference to the Usenet utility intentional) concept.
Reading now ...
And yes, relays do of course serve multiple instances.
I find the "instances wanting to relay subscribe to the service" aspect interesting, and intelligent.
And yeah, that's ... very roughly ... my understanding.
Though a relay would have multiple instance's feeds, ideally.
One question I have is whether or not larger instances might serve as gating relays for smaller ones. Sort of a hub-and-spoke / leafnode (w/ reference to the Usenet utility intentional) concept.
Reading now ...
And yes, relays do of course serve multiple instances.
I find the "instances wanting to relay subscribe to the service" aspect interesting, and intelligent.
Yeah, hub and spoke absolutely makes sense. I think in general, though, the relays are a bit of a hack in the sense that they're papering over poor discoverability and search mostly. It makes sense to have some nodes on the network with the ability to serve up search results for a reasonable fraction of the network, but most small instances have only very limited use for taking a large feed once people have followed what they want.
There's the option of doing more with relays, such as ones offered filtered subsets out.
There's the option of doing more with relays, such as ones offered filtered subsets out.
Mastodon search is so limited anyway that it's almost a non-issue.
Though relays for tracking hashtags and finding members of smaller instances should be useful.
Though relays for tracking hashtags and finding members of smaller instances should be useful.
This! I couldn't really figure out what bothered me so much about Mastodon and it's exactly what you explain in this comment. I wish the local instance wouldn't matter as much as it does, which would also pave the way for single-user self-hosted instances, for people who want to access the fediverse on their own terms.
I think the opportunity is to foster a new kind of social interaction and smaller niche groups seems like a really interesting angle that centralized services gravitate away from.
I haven't used Mastadon but I could see this being a positive if you replace "home instance" with "local community" or "interest group foo".
The truth is that you only need to find a small group of people with similar interests. You don't need access to the entire world.
I haven't used Mastadon but I could see this being a positive if you replace "home instance" with "local community" or "interest group foo".
The truth is that you only need to find a small group of people with similar interests. You don't need access to the entire world.
I think you have the right idea. An large instance may help in the first day or two until you find some people to follow and then it's not so important as far as seeing the rest of the world. The federated timeline has plenty and it will keep growing as the number of people on the instance and the number of people they follow grows. You can also search hashtags to follow topics across the fediverse. But it's nice to have that community with some core shared interests to come back to. Part of that is a shared code of conduct. You want to associate with people who have the same idea about how to interact with others and that really sets the tone for the whole experience. I've mostly interacted with fosstodon.org and hachyderm.io and both are made up of people who are positive and respectful of others.
I'm not sure I agree. I mean, yeah it's great once you have found them. But I would of never of discovered stats twitter or other great communities if they were off in some isolated silo/mastadon instance. It lacks discoverability.
How is that new though? Feels like just going back to forums, or heck even Discord or reddit. But personally I always felt that Mastodon is a Discord/Reddit "clone" rather than something to replace Twitter
Discord, Reddit and Mastodon all feel very different to me.
- Discord's dominant model feels like IRC++ to me. Emphasis largely seems to be on real-time conversations. - Reddit is like a slew of mini-Slashdots, where communities have a discussion prompt like a news story, a question, or something and then commentary. - Mastodon is micro-blogging. You post a status update, commentary or question, and people can react and/or reshare. Y
Discord and Reddit are topic-based. Mastodon is more about following people than topics, though you can organize Mastodon instances by topic / domain / whatever.
Anyway... Mastodon feels more like Twitter, albeit a vision of a better Twitter (for certain values of "better") circa 2017. Longer content, RSS feeds, and federation + the micro blog format.
- Discord's dominant model feels like IRC++ to me. Emphasis largely seems to be on real-time conversations. - Reddit is like a slew of mini-Slashdots, where communities have a discussion prompt like a news story, a question, or something and then commentary. - Mastodon is micro-blogging. You post a status update, commentary or question, and people can react and/or reshare. Y
Discord and Reddit are topic-based. Mastodon is more about following people than topics, though you can organize Mastodon instances by topic / domain / whatever.
Anyway... Mastodon feels more like Twitter, albeit a vision of a better Twitter (for certain values of "better") circa 2017. Longer content, RSS feeds, and federation + the micro blog format.
I think going back to forums is an apt description.
I'm in a different stage of life so I can't comment on if Discord or Reddit solve that use case. I think Discord comes closest.
I'm in a different stage of life so I can't comment on if Discord or Reddit solve that use case. I think Discord comes closest.
You call out Reddit but has private messages, private subs; essentially boundaries like the domain name system.
The reason being is because individuals have boundaries!
Boundaries are a feature humans demand, not a design flaw.
The reason being is because individuals have boundaries!
Boundaries are a feature humans demand, not a design flaw.
because that's way too expensive? if you follow every Programming@ on every public instance and nobody is doing the centralized data distribution, you have a all-to-all situation?
I'm on a discord server with a lot of non-nerds, and various ones are interested in Mastodon, due to Twitter issues.
It's amazing to see how much trouble they're having... "Do I have to create a log in on every Mastodon?" ("No, and it's pretty much impossible"), "Can I follow someone on another server?" ("Yes, but it's incredibly hard -- try to follow them on whatever server you're on, maybe someone else is following them already in which case you'll be able to, otherwise here are directions that sometimes work") kind of things.
It's just not ready for prime-time, even (IMHO) among nerds, but wow, are normal folks having a hard time.
It's amazing to see how much trouble they're having... "Do I have to create a log in on every Mastodon?" ("No, and it's pretty much impossible"), "Can I follow someone on another server?" ("Yes, but it's incredibly hard -- try to follow them on whatever server you're on, maybe someone else is following them already in which case you'll be able to, otherwise here are directions that sometimes work") kind of things.
It's just not ready for prime-time, even (IMHO) among nerds, but wow, are normal folks having a hard time.
> It's just not ready for prime-time, even (IMHO) among nerds, but wow, are normal folks having a hard time.
Yeah.
I've taken a look at it a couple of times but never actually jumped on because whenever I try I'm faced with the same sort of creeping dread I face when reading the how-to for reverting a fauly git merge[1], where like... why do I need to understand this much low level plumbing to do this very basic thing. The Feynman diagrams help but it's still insane.
[1] https://github.com/git/git/blob/master/Documentation/howto/r...
Yeah.
I've taken a look at it a couple of times but never actually jumped on because whenever I try I'm faced with the same sort of creeping dread I face when reading the how-to for reverting a fauly git merge[1], where like... why do I need to understand this much low level plumbing to do this very basic thing. The Feynman diagrams help but it's still insane.
[1] https://github.com/git/git/blob/master/Documentation/howto/r...
People just have lost the ability to comprehend the concept of federation because everything in the current internet is walled gardens. There is nothing Mastodon can do to "fix this" without giving up on federation.
But people understand how federation works. They see it happen everyday with e-mail. You just need to tell them it works like that and they'll get it.
But people understand how federation works. They see it happen everyday with e-mail. You just need to tell them it works like that and they'll get it.
People keep using email as the prime example of federation, but email is pretty terrible!
I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on.
Email is great for point-to-point communication, modulo some of the issues listed above, but that's a very limited use case, not at all comparable to most social media. It's a poor replacement for Twitter, for example.
I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on.
Email is great for point-to-point communication, modulo some of the issues listed above, but that's a very limited use case, not at all comparable to most social media. It's a poor replacement for Twitter, for example.
Browsing the federated timeline, searching by hashtag and looking at who other people you know are following is the discoveability mechanism.
Unlike Twitter, ActivityPub sites generally don't beat you over the head with follow recommendations. The goal is not to get you mentally addicted to spending hours a day on Social Media.
Unlike Twitter, ActivityPub sites generally don't beat you over the head with follow recommendations. The goal is not to get you mentally addicted to spending hours a day on Social Media.
I was actually describing issues with email, but yes, many of the same issues apply to mastodon as well.
That doesn't help at all for following a particular person. (For example, consider finding the account of a band that you already know.)
A Google search is probably the most common discovery mechanism. Once people start putting their Mastodon addresses on their web pages, it will start getting easier.
A Google search is probably the most common discovery mechanism. Once people start putting their Mastodon addresses on their web pages, it will start getting easier.
Google has terrible indexing of Fediverse posts. Your better off just using a large instance to search from.
>I can't communicate with anyone whose address I don't already know. There's no real "discoverability." Many people have multiple email addresses, and I don't know whether I'm communicating with the correct one, or even whether more exist that I don't know about. If an email address stops working, it just... stops working. Emails bounce back (if I'm lucky!) with no easy or standard way to say why, or what address to use instead. I could go on.
These all sound like features to me. If I want you to contact me, I will give you my e-mail address. Otherwise, leave me alone.
These all sound like features to me. If I want you to contact me, I will give you my e-mail address. Otherwise, leave me alone.
The whole point of federation is that you don't need a central authorization to do what you want. Discoverability is only easy with centralization. Of course it won't work as well.
The fediverse is young. Don't expect a finished product when there has been so few man-hours and so little funidng put into it.
The fediverse is young. Don't expect a finished product when there has been so few man-hours and so little funidng put into it.
Mastodon has been around for six years, which is young but not infant-young, and what I'm getting at is pretty central to the entire concept. If it is still this poor of an experience six years in, one might wonder what is going to change in the next six.
No, it's not central. Discoverability of the entire universe is not a goal of any fediverse tool; the goal is to put back communities in the hands of users. Diackverability happens by talking to people, asking your way around, following interesting accounts from afar, being part of the discussion and organically grow your network.
If you search for Twitter2, the fediverse is not it.
If you search for Twitter2, the fediverse is not it.
Every IRC server or Discord server I ever joined, I joined because there was something there to which I wanted access, or an existing community I discovered another way, and was directed there to fill things out.
If either of those things exist for mastodon, I'm not seeing them, and half the people on here are saying, "this isn't twitter go away" while the other half is raving about how exciting it is to be the recipient of "#twittermigration"
Which is all very cute, but it does tend to give commenters whiplash, not knowing whether the responses they're going to get are going to be from one side or the other, or both!
If either of those things exist for mastodon, I'm not seeing them, and half the people on here are saying, "this isn't twitter go away" while the other half is raving about how exciting it is to be the recipient of "#twittermigration"
Which is all very cute, but it does tend to give commenters whiplash, not knowing whether the responses they're going to get are going to be from one side or the other, or both!
Maybe the things you are interested in do not exist on the fediverse; it's not a problem in itself. It's better to be there than on Twitter, but so be it.
Both replies absolutely coexist because of something simple: the fediverse is not Twitter. If you're looking for Twitter2, that's not it. If you're looking to build the fediverse by being a member and contributing to the discussion. You're going in a different universe, learn the rules :)
Both replies absolutely coexist because of something simple: the fediverse is not Twitter. If you're looking for Twitter2, that's not it. If you're looking to build the fediverse by being a member and contributing to the discussion. You're going in a different universe, learn the rules :)
It's not a goal of any current fediverse tool. More advanced discoverability will come. It's not hard to e.g. ask instances to opt in to relays or crawl for profiles. It can happen the easy way (cooperation on a non-commercial solution) or someone will build some ad-supported hellhole to do it once they think the traffic would be worth it.
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> But people understand how federation works. They see it happen everyday with e-mail. You just need to tell them it works like that and they'll get it.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. The problem is the Mastodon software is incredibly hard to use, and flaky.
This has nothing to do with "understanding federation"!
In fact, a few people have said, "Someone said it was just like email, but wow, it's not at all like email!".
That explanation does not work for non-nerds. At all. It does not help.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. The problem is the Mastodon software is incredibly hard to use, and flaky.
This has nothing to do with "understanding federation"!
In fact, a few people have said, "Someone said it was just like email, but wow, it's not at all like email!".
That explanation does not work for non-nerds. At all. It does not help.
For 90% of non-tech folks, email is gmail or whatever their ISP gave them, or came along with their phone, or their employer gave them. It's not something they put any thought into or understand as a "federated" system.
They understand you can send e-mails without needing to have an account with the same provider. They may not know it under the name federation, but they do understand the relevant part, for them.
Right because the UX is so good, thus the conversation
People don't understand how e-mail works because the UX is so good. They understand it because it is ubiquitous and they are used to it. They don't expect anything else to work like that, because nothing else on the internet they use works like that. There is no UX to fix this. People just have to be taught that this is an option.
Can vouch for that, after having run first an ISP in the 90's and then a webmail provider a few years later.
The number of people I had to teach about the "@" symbol alone. And then a few years later the pain was gone. Enough people had learned that most people asked their friends and family rather than need tech support.
The tipping point comes quicker than people expect. E.g. many of the discussions on Mastodon on Twitter is already full of neophytes who had never heard about federation a week ago who are now explaining it to others.
I have no illusion this wave here and now will be the watershed for Mastodon, even with 10x-20x as many daily signups as a couple of weeks ago (currently the hourly signups are above the daily signups two weeks ago), but every wave makes the next one easier.
The number of people I had to teach about the "@" symbol alone. And then a few years later the pain was gone. Enough people had learned that most people asked their friends and family rather than need tech support.
The tipping point comes quicker than people expect. E.g. many of the discussions on Mastodon on Twitter is already full of neophytes who had never heard about federation a week ago who are now explaining it to others.
I have no illusion this wave here and now will be the watershed for Mastodon, even with 10x-20x as many daily signups as a couple of weeks ago (currently the hourly signups are above the daily signups two weeks ago), but every wave makes the next one easier.
I would disagree, most people know that they can write to both [email protected] and to [email protected], and that they are people using different services.
Phone numbers with area codes are still a thing?
@[email protected] shouldn't be too hard to wrap their head around.
Phone numbers with area codes are still a thing?
@[email protected] shouldn't be too hard to wrap their head around.
I think the parallel is that people don't click on a link to send an email to someone for the first time. They copy and paste an email address into the "To" field of their email client. Same thing with getting someone's number to send them a text. And they know that people use different-looking email programs to read their email. Many people use the iPhone mail app on their phone and web mail on their computer. They don't know the word "federated," but the differences aren't alien to them.
I think it helps mastadon writes it's users as @<username>@instance.example which looks very similar to email with a twitter handle slapped on front.
Most people choose Gmail as their email provider specifically because understanding federation is too much mental overhead. There is no gmail equivalent in the Mastodon space, instead there’s many small instances that are difficult to compare.
People who use Gmail still have to know how to send e-mail to [email protected] and when asked what their e-mail address is know to tell people [email protected] instead of [email protected]. You don't get to not understand how e-mail addresses work just because you are using Gmail. There is clearly something else broken about how Mastadon tries to do federation if people are having a hard time with this, but you can't blame federated addresses.
I think part of the issue is just... habit. We know how email works because email has always worked like that. But twitter is not that environment currently works like that so people getting confused is sort of understandable.
Honestly which instance is hard because instances can be small. Which means that an instance runner can get petty with federation. One instance I looked at clearly had the owner in some sort of drama with the owner of another instance.
Sure while it may be possible to avoid now, imagine that drama had happened after I'd been on the instance for a year. I wouldn't likely know until I suddenly stopped seeing my friends posts in my feed. Or what if my previous one had shut down with no warning instead of giving me months to migrate. Should a normal person have to back up their data weekly from the site in case it's owner does something stupid?
In reality Federation is cool and all but most people are going to end up on Mastadon.social
Honestly which instance is hard because instances can be small. Which means that an instance runner can get petty with federation. One instance I looked at clearly had the owner in some sort of drama with the owner of another instance.
Sure while it may be possible to avoid now, imagine that drama had happened after I'd been on the instance for a year. I wouldn't likely know until I suddenly stopped seeing my friends posts in my feed. Or what if my previous one had shut down with no warning instead of giving me months to migrate. Should a normal person have to back up their data weekly from the site in case it's owner does something stupid?
In reality Federation is cool and all but most people are going to end up on Mastadon.social
The addresses aren’t the problem, most people see an email address as just a unique identifier for the other person. The problem is choosing an instance to sign up on.
But those that do use Gmail are well aware that they can use their Gmail account to write to @anywhere.com, not just other @gmail.com addresses. They already have that mental image in their head.
This is "just" extending that concept to @[email protected], @[email protected], whatever. This user on this site, same as this email address on this domain.
This is "just" extending that concept to @[email protected], @[email protected], whatever. This user on this site, same as this email address on this domain.
It's not conceptual, it's UI. The easy way to is copy the address and paste it into the search box on your home instance. Then hit the subscribe button.
This isn't very discoverable at all, though. Hitting the follow button is worse and doesn't tell you the easy way.
This isn't very discoverable at all, though. Hitting the follow button is worse and doesn't tell you the easy way.
> People just have lost the ability to comprehend the concept of federation because everything in the current internet is walled gardens.
Non-technical users have never understood these things. They browse the web by accident and sending e-mail is incomprehensible magic. Most people don't care at all how such things work, they only care when they don't work.
Non-technical users have never understood these things. They browse the web by accident and sending e-mail is incomprehensible magic. Most people don't care at all how such things work, they only care when they don't work.
It's much worse now, partially due to the fact that young people's first computing device is a phone, instead of a family computer.
Here's a story about an engineering professor lamenting that their first-year students do not understand folder structures, because they have been using Google Docs for a decade, and don't use use anything besides the search bar.
https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
Here's a story about an engineering professor lamenting that their first-year students do not understand folder structures, because they have been using Google Docs for a decade, and don't use use anything besides the search bar.
https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
Let's be real though, nested directories aren't necessarily the best way to organize or find documents. In an era where systems support tagging, full text search, and other graph connections between files nested folder structures aren't necessary for everyone. They're a conceptual holdover from a different time with much more limited means to persist data.
That's not to say they're obsolete but it's not necessary for whole classes of users to use and understand them.
That's not to say they're obsolete but it's not necessary for whole classes of users to use and understand them.
For me, folder structures in Windows and MS-DOS helped me grasp the basics of information architecture. That is still how most website URLs work. Even if websites are now database-driven CMSes, and not actual folders on a web server, URLs are still written in that way to give both humans and search engines an idea of the structure of the site.
I would posit that it's easier to understand things like objects, arrays and API endpoints if you have that basic familiarity with folders.
I would posit that it's easier to understand things like objects, arrays and API endpoints if you have that basic familiarity with folders.
You're not wrong. At least not for yourself. At the same time a lot of web-based apps and even local apps don't necessarily work on directory hierarchies.
In many cases hierarchies are just ceremony or boilerplate that slow down a user. Say a note taking application. It can store the actual notes in a database that can sync between machines and the web. Using search to find notes, especially if it supports some sort of inline tagging like hashtags, is faster for the user than trying to come up with some folder hierarchy. Hierarchies also are inconvenient when documents straddle multiple categories. Grouping by tags let a note/document exist in multiple categories without reorganizing everything.
Thirty years ago the only "view" into storage was directories and files. File systems were relatively sparse in terms of metadata support. Directory hierarchies were the only tool for organization. Information Retrieval systems were all about adding an over the top database and document indexing system on shitty sparse file systems.
Today a lot of those Information Retrieval concepts are rolled into online storage systems (Google Docs etc). So hierarchies aren't the primary organization unit since they're not the only mechanism the backing store has for organization.
In many cases hierarchies are just ceremony or boilerplate that slow down a user. Say a note taking application. It can store the actual notes in a database that can sync between machines and the web. Using search to find notes, especially if it supports some sort of inline tagging like hashtags, is faster for the user than trying to come up with some folder hierarchy. Hierarchies also are inconvenient when documents straddle multiple categories. Grouping by tags let a note/document exist in multiple categories without reorganizing everything.
Thirty years ago the only "view" into storage was directories and files. File systems were relatively sparse in terms of metadata support. Directory hierarchies were the only tool for organization. Information Retrieval systems were all about adding an over the top database and document indexing system on shitty sparse file systems.
Today a lot of those Information Retrieval concepts are rolled into online storage systems (Google Docs etc). So hierarchies aren't the primary organization unit since they're not the only mechanism the backing store has for organization.
Yes that type of person exists but they are not the ones looking for a twitter alternative because of Elon Musk right now.
There are shades of gray between the people who understand the technical definition of federation, and people who, as you put it "browse the web by accident". The people who are looking for an alternative right now understand e-mail well enough (from an end-user perspective) to make the comparison.
If we ever get to the point where enough people use mastodon that the latter category would also be interested in participating in it, it would be so ubiquitous that they would ask someone with a minimum of understanding to et it up for them. Just the way it works now with other things.
There are shades of gray between the people who understand the technical definition of federation, and people who, as you put it "browse the web by accident". The people who are looking for an alternative right now understand e-mail well enough (from an end-user perspective) to make the comparison.
If we ever get to the point where enough people use mastodon that the latter category would also be interested in participating in it, it would be so ubiquitous that they would ask someone with a minimum of understanding to et it up for them. Just the way it works now with other things.
The "federation" of e-mail and Mastodon are only superficially similar. It's non-intuitive to follow a user from a different instance. It's also non-intuitive to find those users to follow. Most of the time Mastodon users are found via some side channel where they advertise their presence.
Every point of friction you add for a user of a new thing is a reason for them to abandon it. Even if Mastodon isn't trying to necessarily replace Twitter, catering only to the most dedicated users is not a way to grow a healthy community.
Every point of friction you add for a user of a new thing is a reason for them to abandon it. Even if Mastodon isn't trying to necessarily replace Twitter, catering only to the most dedicated users is not a way to grow a healthy community.
The problem isn't that people need the right analogy. It's that they never really learned email. Right from the beginning, the commercial Internet has been trying to blackbox technology and present the "just works" button. So when email breaks because of federation issues, people shrug and say "well it worked for me (using the most centralized email systems)".
The amount of conceptual learning needed to understand the federation model is roughly similar to a complicated strategy game that needs a 15-minute tutorial. A motivated child can work it out; a stressed and distracted thirty-something will try to avoid it, or maybe mock it so as not to normalize its use.
I totally think it's possible to normalize federation since there are tons of conceptually difficult systems in daily life. Some of the burden of that rests on UX and onboarding. But far more of it is a case of, are people desperate enough to bother?
The amount of conceptual learning needed to understand the federation model is roughly similar to a complicated strategy game that needs a 15-minute tutorial. A motivated child can work it out; a stressed and distracted thirty-something will try to avoid it, or maybe mock it so as not to normalize its use.
I totally think it's possible to normalize federation since there are tons of conceptually difficult systems in daily life. Some of the burden of that rests on UX and onboarding. But far more of it is a case of, are people desperate enough to bother?
It doesn't work like email. Email for people is setting up an account on Gmail. "It just works", so to speak.
Even Hotmail was able to sign up millions of users with 1996 levels of tech-savviness.
It's only 'like email' if the people you're talking to have set up their own IMAP and POP servers.
Even Hotmail was able to sign up millions of users with 1996 levels of tech-savviness.
It's only 'like email' if the people you're talking to have set up their own IMAP and POP servers.
What are you talking about? You don't need to host your own Mastodon server. You can sign up with one of the many open instances, just like gmail and hotmail let you do for e-mail.
Of course it can work on smoothing it out. Most instances do upgrades and use the same software. Short term interface changes and long term they can work on protocol changes.
> ... but wow, are normal folks having a hard time.
We should stop picking on normal folks. I write software for a living and, honestly, I'm over dealing with BS software. We've swung WAY too far to the "developer productivity" side of engineering and away from "consumer productivity". It's annoying and, frankly, if I have to jump through hoops, I simply choose not to anymore.
We should stop picking on normal folks. I write software for a living and, honestly, I'm over dealing with BS software. We've swung WAY too far to the "developer productivity" side of engineering and away from "consumer productivity". It's annoying and, frankly, if I have to jump through hoops, I simply choose not to anymore.
I really thought consumer/worker interfaces would become much more efficient over time. Turns out the market doesn't care much about front line people having to go through way too many steps to perform a task except in very niche cases.
The all text, green screen terminals hooked into an AS-400 were far quicker to use than the mess of mouse driven web GUI stuff (often with slow page loads on top of it), and 'discoverability' has not exactly improved a ton in the mean time. It sucks that repetitive task efficiency isn't valued more in so many situations.
The all text, green screen terminals hooked into an AS-400 were far quicker to use than the mess of mouse driven web GUI stuff (often with slow page loads on top of it), and 'discoverability' has not exactly improved a ton in the mean time. It sucks that repetitive task efficiency isn't valued more in so many situations.
I didn't read that comment as picking on normal people. It's using their experience to pick on Mastodon by illustrating how its UX is more flawed than many "tech users" are able to realize from their own frame of reference.
> Yes, but it's incredibly hard -- try to follow them on whatever server you're on
Confused about this. In my experience it's always just been a matter of adding
@[email protected]
Is this not always so simple?
Confused about this. In my experience it's always just been a matter of adding
@[email protected]
Is this not always so simple?
"Remote follow" is very unintuitive, particularly for Twitter users.
1. View a user's profile page on another instance.
2. Click "Follow".
3. A "remote follow" window opens with the message "Enter your username@domain you want to act from".
4. ???
How profile pages are displayed changes depending on whether you middle/right click ("open in new tab") or left click on a user's name from your own instance. If you left click, you get the profile page on you own instance. If you get the link by any other means (including e.g. someone sends you a link to their profile), you get the above. It's confused me more than once.
1. View a user's profile page on another instance.
2. Click "Follow".
3. A "remote follow" window opens with the message "Enter your username@domain you want to act from".
4. ???
How profile pages are displayed changes depending on whether you middle/right click ("open in new tab") or left click on a user's name from your own instance. If you left click, you get the profile page on you own instance. If you get the link by any other means (including e.g. someone sends you a link to their profile), you get the above. It's confused me more than once.
The problem is that is not centralized server and even can be a different type of server like Pleroma, Misskey or any other that supports ActivityPub so it works different, They have to learn that ActivityPub/Mastodon is different and works different the same they had to learn how Twitter works or just stay in Twitter if it's too hard or too painful for them.
This is like when computer geeks don’t get why people won’t switch from windows to Linux. If you don’t understand why they don’t want to, or why there will never be a massive shift to Mastodon you’ll never fix the issue. Your suggestion is not “simple”. My non tech wife doesn’t care about instances and this and that. She goes to Twitter, she types in her favorite people, finds and follows. Done.
It's exactly the same you don't like it you stay with Windows or Twitter oar Facebook . Why do people have to jump to the Fediverse now. They don't like it they just can stay where they are , everybody happier.
im still confused about The Terrible Time people are having here...
for example. if i want to search for @[email protected]... i do that, and click follow.
thats it. i click follow. like, where are you guys having so much trouble with this?
for example. if i want to search for @[email protected]... i do that, and click follow.
thats it. i click follow. like, where are you guys having so much trouble with this?
How is this any different from typing @gmail.com vs @yahoo.com? People seem competent enough to handle emails...
The moment you're manually typing a username it's game over. It should be rare to never that you need a specific user id, let alone a specific server. You should just have to see a user and click follow.
Actually someone pointed out you don't even need to do that much
There's a big (and only) search bar at the top of the homepage. You can simply search the username and they'll pop up across instances. There's a little follow button next to their name you can click and you're done
Exactly like Venmo or Snapchat or Instagram. It's already in the cultural norms to ask "what's your insta" or "what's your venmo".
What's your mastodon?
There's a big (and only) search bar at the top of the homepage. You can simply search the username and they'll pop up across instances. There's a little follow button next to their name you can click and you're done
Exactly like Venmo or Snapchat or Instagram. It's already in the cultural norms to ask "what's your insta" or "what's your venmo".
What's your mastodon?
> The moment you're manually typing a username it's game over.
Is copy/paste also too much to ask of technology's current generation?
Is copy/paste also too much to ask of technology's current generation?
Let's be honest. Copy-Paste sucks on most mobile. And mobile is where most people are at, especially on social.
Yes. As it happens, it’s really hard to copy a Mastadon ID (or whatever it’s called) on Mobile. iOS at least interprets it as an email address and launches a mail client, and actively prevents copying it to the clipboard.
Yes.
You should just have to see a user and click follow.
Which you can, regardless of what instance they're on.
Moving in bulk is also easy, using something like Debirdify
https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/
Which you can, regardless of what instance they're on.
Moving in bulk is also easy, using something like Debirdify
https://pruvisto.org/debirdify/
You can't do this on the web interface unless you're on the same instance. It's pretty clunky right now.
Correction: You can't do it if you are linked to their user page https://mastodon.social/username...that doesn't work if you're not on mastodon.social. And often I seem to find myself at these URLs and can't see if I'm following the person, and have to go through extra steps to follow them.
Correction: You can't do it if you are linked to their user page https://mastodon.social/username...that doesn't work if you're not on mastodon.social. And often I seem to find myself at these URLs and can't see if I'm following the person, and have to go through extra steps to follow them.
Can you not do that?
Imagine I'm on hacker news and there's someone on mastodon I think someone should follow and their mastodon handle is @[email protected] (because they are so cool they run their own instance).
You definitely can't click that handle and add follow them, I could put https://cooldude.example.com/@cooldude and you could click to their profile on their instance, but there would be no way to follow them directly from there on your mastodon.social (or whatever) account, you have to go to your instance and type/paste in their handle and then click follow.
Edit: There is a remote-follow workflow that involves clicking a link and entering your full handle to get redirected to a page where you can follow them. Maybe slightly better, but still not great.
You definitely can't click that handle and add follow them, I could put https://cooldude.example.com/@cooldude and you could click to their profile on their instance, but there would be no way to follow them directly from there on your mastodon.social (or whatever) account, you have to go to your instance and type/paste in their handle and then click follow.
Edit: There is a remote-follow workflow that involves clicking a link and entering your full handle to get redirected to a page where you can follow them. Maybe slightly better, but still not great.
You can just put that full name in the search bar on your own instance and follow them from it. You don't have to go to their instance at all.
I mean, I'm not saying that mastodon is super duper easy to use for everyone but in this particular example you seem to be going out of your way to make it more complicated than it is.
If the thing you found on hn was a link to their profile your flow would make sense, but if you have an id@domain the flow is really simple and basically the same as other similar things (ie. put it in your email client).
I mean, I'm not saying that mastodon is super duper easy to use for everyone but in this particular example you seem to be going out of your way to make it more complicated than it is.
If the thing you found on hn was a link to their profile your flow would make sense, but if you have an id@domain the flow is really simple and basically the same as other similar things (ie. put it in your email client).
I was replying in context to the comment above about typing in the handle, and I would put copy/paste in the same category.
With email addresses, you have the mailto: link, which works pretty well so you don't have to copy paste. Maybe we need a follow: url scheme that browsers know what to do with.
With email addresses, you have the mailto: link, which works pretty well so you don't have to copy paste. Maybe we need a follow: url scheme that browsers know what to do with.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that come into existence now honestly.
Is this something that is just crappy with the workflow, so other clients could be better or a limitation of the current mastadon server implementation not providing enough information?
Not sure what you mean, I think that is a valid point.
I don't use mastadon, so learning that the idea it doesn't have a registered "follow" scheme is not great.
Right, we need the user to figure out what "just adding @[email protected]" entails.
I think it means going to your home instance, searching for @[email protected] and clicking the follow button that will show up. But maybe you mean something else? Either way it's not easy to find it.
I think it means going to your home instance, searching for @[email protected] and clicking the follow button that will show up. But maybe you mean something else? Either way it's not easy to find it.
Oh right I forgot you can just search. In that case you don't even need the "otherinstance.com" part
You can just search for "@personiwannafollow" and they'll show up and you can hit a single button to follow.
It's the big, and only, search bar at the top of the home page...
You can just search for "@personiwannafollow" and they'll show up and you can hit a single button to follow.
It's the big, and only, search bar at the top of the home page...
Mastodon is built for the world some people wish we lived in, not the world we actually have. It has way too many issues that are disqualifying on their face to most people, starting with there’s no way to preview the community without signing up, but the list goes on and on.
>no way to preview the community without signing up
This is incorrect. You click the "Discover Users" from the instance home page, and you can view (public) profiles and as well as posts that they have made. I agree that it would be better to just be able to view the local timeline.
This is incorrect. You click the "Discover Users" from the instance home page, and you can view (public) profiles and as well as posts that they have made. I agree that it would be better to just be able to view the local timeline.
I consider myself quite a nerd, but honestly, I am struggling with exactly those questions. I do think better introductions for newcomers are needed so the explanations are understandable for people who are thinking in "twitter" terms.
There should be just a page with a quick checklist/cheat sheet for twitter users.
There should be just a page with a quick checklist/cheat sheet for twitter users.
I think nerds often have an overthinking problem with it on both the learning and explanation sides. For example: extremely normie comedian Kathy Griffin got on via a short primer in an aggressively mainstream publication and started teaching her friends how things work. Lots of recent happy users are non-tech journalists and other professionals who got it from similar publications or had a friend helping. Meanwhile, serious tech journalists are having conniption fits, and nerds are wailing and gnashing teeth.
There's some disconnect between how people who really understand it on a deep level are explaining it to other people who understand other technical things on a similar level and how people with 30 minutes and a publication deadline are explaining it.
There's some disconnect between how people who really understand it on a deep level are explaining it to other people who understand other technical things on a similar level and how people with 30 minutes and a publication deadline are explaining it.
This is also my perception. There's a cynicism that permeates this industry about what people are capable of understanding or using if given a little time and some motivation, to the point that listening to a forum like HN you'd think no one who sits in front of a computer can even type, let alone aim a mouse at a button.
Twitter was once considered pretty obtuse compared to facebook, at any rate. Once upon a time people didn't know what a retweet was or how to "at" someone. They didn't learn because twitter was "so easy" they learned because the people they wanted to talk to were there.
Network effects always trump all on these things.
Twitter was once considered pretty obtuse compared to facebook, at any rate. Once upon a time people didn't know what a retweet was or how to "at" someone. They didn't learn because twitter was "so easy" they learned because the people they wanted to talk to were there.
Network effects always trump all on these things.
Do you have a link to that guide, I would be quite interested to read it, as I am still trying to figure out mastodon.
I lost the link. And it was on her now-suspended Twitter, so I can't go get it, unfortunately. However, I would not be surprised if helpful people popped up in your notifications if you asked questions on Mastodon (assuming you have an account).
There is really nothing Musk should be worried about.
The funny thing is: If there was a service called dwitter and had exact the same features that twitter had, people might be willing to give it a try.
At this point a twitter alternative doesn't need to be different. It only needs to have a different owner.
The funny thing is: If there was a service called dwitter and had exact the same features that twitter had, people might be willing to give it a try.
At this point a twitter alternative doesn't need to be different. It only needs to have a different owner.
"Dwitter" is taken, it's like Twitter but for JS demos: https://www.dwitter.net/
People who learned how to use Discord can sure as heck deal with Mastodon. They just need a real motivation beyond curiosity.
Okay, I know that to see content about X, I connect to the X discord server, and to see content about Y, I connect to the Y discord server, and so on. But to message someone, I don't need to know or care what server they're on, or where I know them from. I just message username#uid, and that's it.
Discord is different enough from other tools that many people are confused by it.
But even then, Mastodon is different enough from Discord--and other tools--that many people are confused by it.
Discord is different enough from other tools that many people are confused by it.
But even then, Mastodon is different enough from Discord--and other tools--that many people are confused by it.
How is "I just message username#uid" different from "I just message username@instance"?
Okay, taking this at face value.
I load Discord, and I see someone's post, and I think to myself, I should message that person. So I click their username, and right there is a text box for me to start typing a direct message to them. Alternatively, there's a "Direct Messages" option in my left toolbar where I can hit "+" to start a conversation with any "Friend."
I load mastodon, and I see someone's post, and I think to myself, I should message that person. So I click their username, and then on their profile page, I click the three dots and choose the "Direct message" option. So that's not quite as direct, but not too bad. Alternatively, there's a "Direct messages" option in my right toolbar where... all I see is "You don't have any direct messages yet. When you send or receive one, it will show up here." No options to start one from here, and no friends list here. Hmm, there's a "Follows and followers" sidebar link which takes me to the expected list of people, and then I guess I can click on their profiles and again navigate to the three dots, and... huh, this person doesn't actually have a "Direct message" option there. Okay, maybe that person doesn't accept DMs, at least from me. Let me try someone who is following me back. I click their name and... their profile doesn't have a three-dots link. Oh, in fact several of these don't.
Well, I guess I don't actually know how to DM most people on mastodon. Let me try something else. If I go to Notifications, and since I have "show every option" enabled, I can see just my "follows," and I can click on those names, and yes, there I have the three dots and can DM people.
So maybe I can only DM people who follow me? Or who have showed up in my notifications? No, there, if I am looking in my timeline view, then I can get to the three dots for anybody.
Anyway, perhaps it seems like I'm making this too complicated, but I assure you that I won't be the only one wondering why "Direct messages" doesn't let me send direct messages, or why sometimes I can see contact options and sometimes I can't!
I load Discord, and I see someone's post, and I think to myself, I should message that person. So I click their username, and right there is a text box for me to start typing a direct message to them. Alternatively, there's a "Direct Messages" option in my left toolbar where I can hit "+" to start a conversation with any "Friend."
I load mastodon, and I see someone's post, and I think to myself, I should message that person. So I click their username, and then on their profile page, I click the three dots and choose the "Direct message" option. So that's not quite as direct, but not too bad. Alternatively, there's a "Direct messages" option in my right toolbar where... all I see is "You don't have any direct messages yet. When you send or receive one, it will show up here." No options to start one from here, and no friends list here. Hmm, there's a "Follows and followers" sidebar link which takes me to the expected list of people, and then I guess I can click on their profiles and again navigate to the three dots, and... huh, this person doesn't actually have a "Direct message" option there. Okay, maybe that person doesn't accept DMs, at least from me. Let me try someone who is following me back. I click their name and... their profile doesn't have a three-dots link. Oh, in fact several of these don't.
Well, I guess I don't actually know how to DM most people on mastodon. Let me try something else. If I go to Notifications, and since I have "show every option" enabled, I can see just my "follows," and I can click on those names, and yes, there I have the three dots and can DM people.
So maybe I can only DM people who follow me? Or who have showed up in my notifications? No, there, if I am looking in my timeline view, then I can get to the three dots for anybody.
Anyway, perhaps it seems like I'm making this too complicated, but I assure you that I won't be the only one wondering why "Direct messages" doesn't let me send direct messages, or why sometimes I can see contact options and sometimes I can't!
The discussion mentioned above was on a Discord server -- and yeah, several people have reported issues with getting started with Discord, but navigate it and do just fine.
Mastodon is just a whole other world of complexity and confusion.
Mastodon is just a whole other world of complexity and confusion.
Hm - following someone on another server is incredibly easy for me? I look at the Fediverse feed now, see a message that looks interesting to me, click on the author's username, and then click "Follow". What am I missing?
If someone hands you (outside of Mastodon) a Mastodon handle on a different instance or a link to their profile, it's not obvious how to follow them.
(the way to do it is to paste it into the Search box of your mastodon instance)
(the way to do it is to paste it into the Search box of your mastodon instance)
On the web interface: I paste the handle in the Search box under my Home page, click the search button. The user is found, I click on the hit, user's page appears in the right-most pane, I click on Follow. In the Tusky App: top right corner is Search, tap on it, paste the handle in the search box, tap to the ACCOUNTS tab (have forgotten couple of times to do that! - default tab is POSTS), then press Enter, the user is found, tap on the hit, tap on Follow. Not that different to any other similar social service (TW, FB) tbh. If anything - Twitter search I've found harder to navigate in the past. Fwiw - Twitter and Mastodon are different, there is no one-to-one replacement. I've been using both, there are pros and cons. Twitter has superior SNR for my interests.
Why wouldn't you just ask the person who gave it to you how to use it? I've always been there to answer questions when introducing people to new technology. I know I had to walk people through emailing me back in the 90s. It's no different. What kind of Johnny Appleseed jackass is strolling around telling people their handle and skipping out before telling them how to use it?
[deleted]
It's just not ready for prime-time, even (IMHO) among nerds, but wow, are normal folks having a hard time.
As someone who’s been on Mastodon for a few years, the front-ends and apps aren’t very good, with the UI/UX being particularly bad.
One of the few apps I would recommend for iPhone users is Metatex, which is the best mobile app I’ve seen—by far [1].
[1]: https://apps.apple.com/app/id1523996615
As someone who’s been on Mastodon for a few years, the front-ends and apps aren’t very good, with the UI/UX being particularly bad.
One of the few apps I would recommend for iPhone users is Metatex, which is the best mobile app I’ve seen—by far [1].
[1]: https://apps.apple.com/app/id1523996615
Naively here, I just don't see why it should be hard to follow people on other instances--at least for public posts (which again naively I assume are most).
The "Twitter issues" that people are discussing currently come down to just wanting more censorship (they perceive that Elon's Twitter won't silence all the conservative voices as well as pre-Elon Twitter did). A federated solution isn't right a great fix for this, as a single instance that doesn't moderate the way you want can still show up in your federated timeline.
I think they're going to find out that it's nerdy and that they now hang out among the nerds and not the cool people anymore. And then within a week or so pretend that it never happened, they'll buy their blue checkmark so their posts aren't buried with the spam & rabble, and be on their merry ways as if this whole meltdown never happened.
How is following someone on another server with Mastodon difficult? Or is that some sort of a meme now?
It's confusing if someone posts a Mastodon handle on eg Twitter. If it's a link to their profile, you can't follow them on that page. You have to go to your own instance and paste their handle into the search box and follow them that way.
That is a legit UX annoyance, yes.
Similarly, local-to-your-instance links to a specific toot, vs. globally-accessible / canonical toot URLs.
Both can be resolved through the Search dialogue on Mastodon, but it took me a while to work that out myself.
Similarly, local-to-your-instance links to a specific toot, vs. globally-accessible / canonical toot URLs.
Both can be resolved through the Search dialogue on Mastodon, but it took me a while to work that out myself.
Oh, and I should add, it doesn't work if you ended up on an instance that doesn't federate with the one that your followee is on. And the UI for that is "it just doesn't show up in search."
Much of the feedback around blocking (instances and profiles) is less than transparent, some of which is by design.
Fully-transparent blocking tends to play to the interests of griefers, abusers, and trolls.
For many instances, blocks are listed on the /about/more page of the instance. Mind that you'd also have to check to see if the remote instance is blocking your own.
Fully-transparent blocking tends to play to the interests of griefers, abusers, and trolls.
For many instances, blocks are listed on the /about/more page of the instance. Mind that you'd also have to check to see if the remote instance is blocking your own.
The fact that one has to pick from many different places to set up an account is a massive barrier to entry. Let alone the complexity of moving an account from one host to another is also woefully complex, so if you choose wrong, you’re in for more pain.
I don’t see this platform being able to benefit from the Twitter exodus.
I’m putting my hopes on blue sky/AT which appears to solve the above pain points: https://blueskyweb.org/
I don’t see this platform being able to benefit from the Twitter exodus.
I’m putting my hopes on blue sky/AT which appears to solve the above pain points: https://blueskyweb.org/
> I don’t see this platform being able to benefit from the Twitter exodus.
What you might say is 'I don't think Mastodon is going to replace Twitter', but I don't think you can argue that Mastodon won't benefit from the Twitter exodus because it has already gained a million users.
Looking at the charts on https://the-federation.info/mastodon you can see that in May there was an influx of about 500 thousand new users after Musk's acquisition of twitter was announced. About 100 thousand of those stuck around. This time the number of new users is 1.1 million and still rising. So proportionally, the Twitter exodus will probably bring Mastodon at least 220 thousand new permanent users. My actual guess would be that a higher proportion will stick around this time, because of network effects.
What you might say is 'I don't think Mastodon is going to replace Twitter', but I don't think you can argue that Mastodon won't benefit from the Twitter exodus because it has already gained a million users.
Looking at the charts on https://the-federation.info/mastodon you can see that in May there was an influx of about 500 thousand new users after Musk's acquisition of twitter was announced. About 100 thousand of those stuck around. This time the number of new users is 1.1 million and still rising. So proportionally, the Twitter exodus will probably bring Mastodon at least 220 thousand new permanent users. My actual guess would be that a higher proportion will stick around this time, because of network effects.
i fear that Mastodon will suffer enormously from the Twitter exodus because it has already had to accommodate a million new users. a million new customers is great, a million new members of a community is a giant acculturation problem
What’s interesting is that it’s doing fine so far; existing users are being really helpful and welcoming to the newbs. It’s actually a really pleasant place to be compared to Twitter. (It might be helping that everybody leaving Twitter is leaving Twitter for the same reason.)
Septembers happen.
Septembers demolish communities.
Some more than others, but most certainly not all.
Where this one falls for Mastodon remains to be seen. It's more AOLish than Academic, in the sense that it's the result of a capricious event on a large outside-the-destination-system network (Twitter, in this case) rather than a regular seasonal influx (as with uni students discovering Usenet). It isn't however a wholesale dumping of an entire community onto another though as was the case for AOL in 1993.
Mastodon's adoption for at least the past six years has tended to be driven by failures and frustrations with other platforms, and Twitter in particular. Those seem to be occurring in increasing waves. There's some grumbling and adjustment with each, but so far, knock wood, Mastodon's assimilated the influx fairly well.
Where this one falls for Mastodon remains to be seen. It's more AOLish than Academic, in the sense that it's the result of a capricious event on a large outside-the-destination-system network (Twitter, in this case) rather than a regular seasonal influx (as with uni students discovering Usenet). It isn't however a wholesale dumping of an entire community onto another though as was the case for AOL in 1993.
Mastodon's adoption for at least the past six years has tended to be driven by failures and frustrations with other platforms, and Twitter in particular. Those seem to be occurring in increasing waves. There's some grumbling and adjustment with each, but so far, knock wood, Mastodon's assimilated the influx fairly well.
Yep, I hope it continues working.
It's worth noting that whilst the present migration is still in process, the magnitude is approximately 1/5 of extant profiles. That's more Academic than AOL scale. (1 million new profiles on a base of about 5 million.) Based on past history, perhaps 20% will remain, though how many of the extant profiles themselves are active I'm not sure (I suspect probably also ~20%, which means it all washes out).
At the time of the September that Never Ended, Usenet was ~1m total users (based on data from John Quarterman's The Matrix (1990) citing DEC researcher Brian Reid, which I've referenced in earlier HN comments). I believe AOL at the time was at least of an equivalent magnitude, if not several times this.
At the time of the September that Never Ended, Usenet was ~1m total users (based on data from John Quarterman's The Matrix (1990) citing DEC researcher Brian Reid, which I've referenced in earlier HN comments). I believe AOL at the time was at least of an equivalent magnitude, if not several times this.
That sounds right.
Ok, in that case I’ll clarify: I don’t think the vast majority of Twitter users will benefit from Mastodon.
assuming Twitter stays exactly as it is, I'd agree.
But it's clear with the planned changes that they're turning paid blue check accounts into the equivalent of the ads you see at the top of your Google search, placed above 'organic' results.
But it's clear with the planned changes that they're turning paid blue check accounts into the equivalent of the ads you see at the top of your Google search, placed above 'organic' results.
To also clarify I do think Twitter is a dead man walking, so something will take over. Hopefully AT will deliver.
I politely disagree: you just pick an "entry node", similar to picking an ISP or an email provider. You can interact with everyone in the Fediverse just fine. Having a newsfeed for your chosen "entry node" is an additional nice-to-have imho but not the defining criteria.
Picking an ISP should be transparent - my usage of internet services, like with whom I communicate - isn't influenced by it. I can change my ISP any time and no one will even notice, no one will have to be informed about a changed address.
Picking an email provider is quite critical - if you change your email address, you can be only reached if everyone knows your new address, lets not even get started about where the email is used to identify you with other serviced.
I think your choice of a a mastodon server falls in the middle ground between those examples, at minimum, there needs to be a bit more education of users to overcome (perceived?) hurdles there. I can confirm that while I noticed mastodon before, earlier attempts to use it stopped at the question on how to select the proper node and what consequences that has. That might be a perceived problem, but one that needs to be overcome if mastodon should be a popular Twitter alternative.
Picking an email provider is quite critical - if you change your email address, you can be only reached if everyone knows your new address, lets not even get started about where the email is used to identify you with other serviced.
I think your choice of a a mastodon server falls in the middle ground between those examples, at minimum, there needs to be a bit more education of users to overcome (perceived?) hurdles there. I can confirm that while I noticed mastodon before, earlier attempts to use it stopped at the question on how to select the proper node and what consequences that has. That might be a perceived problem, but one that needs to be overcome if mastodon should be a popular Twitter alternative.
People "pick" an ISP based on price. They pick an email provider based on UI, or features, or price, or cachet. How should I pick an entry node?
I go to https://mastodon.social/ because that's where people say things are happening, and I click "Create Account." I'm told I can't sign up here, but I can "Find another server"
You've already lost a huge percentage of potential users, but let's say I press on. I click through to https://joinmastodon.org/servers and see things like glasgow.social and metalhead.club. I'm neither Glaswegian nor a metalhead, so what do I choose? On what basis do I make this choice? It's immediately overwhelming, with a very real fear of picking the "wrong" server and somehow missing out on, well, I don't know, because how would I?
I go to https://mastodon.social/ because that's where people say things are happening, and I click "Create Account." I'm told I can't sign up here, but I can "Find another server"
You've already lost a huge percentage of potential users, but let's say I press on. I click through to https://joinmastodon.org/servers and see things like glasgow.social and metalhead.club. I'm neither Glaswegian nor a metalhead, so what do I choose? On what basis do I make this choice? It's immediately overwhelming, with a very real fear of picking the "wrong" server and somehow missing out on, well, I don't know, because how would I?
No, it's more like picking your community. Compare an account on mastodon.social vs an instance localated in your hometown to see the difference.
What is the difference? From my limited exposure to Mastodon at the moment I don't actually interact with "my instance", i just follow a bunch of people most of which are not actually on my instance. Not sure what I would be missing out on.
yeah, the panic people are putting forward about server choice is really strange. my account is on a friends invite server and 99% of the people i follow and interact with are on all kinds of other servers. my timeline is almost entirely people from dozens of other servers.
im not at all sure why people are panicked about this.
im not at all sure why people are panicked about this.
The key phrase in your statement is "on a friends invite server."
Okay, so if you don't already have a friend on Mastodon, then what? Have you actually looked at the list on https://joinmastodon.org/servers recently?
Half the comments here say it doesn't matter what server you choose, and half are saying to be sure to choose the one that aligns with your interests, which... see the list above for why that's an issue.
Panic? No. It's just an example of mastodon needlessly limiting itself in terms of usability right at the starting gate.
Okay, so if you don't already have a friend on Mastodon, then what? Have you actually looked at the list on https://joinmastodon.org/servers recently?
Half the comments here say it doesn't matter what server you choose, and half are saying to be sure to choose the one that aligns with your interests, which... see the list above for why that's an issue.
Panic? No. It's just an example of mastodon needlessly limiting itself in terms of usability right at the starting gate.
> The key phrase in your statement is "on a friends invite server."
why is this a key statement? my point is that being on a friends server hasn't altered the experience at all.
i migrated to my friends server a couple days ago from mastodon.social--i literally haven't noticed any difference at all, the experience from everything i can tell has been identical as it was prior. the server im on made literally no difference.
i still follow the same people.
i still have the exact same followers.
my timeline is identical.
i still see all of tehir posts.
they still see mine.
i still see posts they repost.
again, i have noticed absolutely nothing meaningfully different. other than maybe the address i type into the address bar to reach the site, but i dont think thats "meaningful" in any meaningful ;) way.
why is this a key statement? my point is that being on a friends server hasn't altered the experience at all.
i migrated to my friends server a couple days ago from mastodon.social--i literally haven't noticed any difference at all, the experience from everything i can tell has been identical as it was prior. the server im on made literally no difference.
i still follow the same people.
i still have the exact same followers.
my timeline is identical.
i still see all of tehir posts.
they still see mine.
i still see posts they repost.
again, i have noticed absolutely nothing meaningfully different. other than maybe the address i type into the address bar to reach the site, but i dont think thats "meaningful" in any meaningful ;) way.
Today, I cannot sign up at "your friend's server" nor mastodon.social, so neither of those things help me.
The phrase is key because it reflects a familiarity which new users do not have. Have you never in your life been introduced to an environment you didn't understand and felt put off by everybody using words you didn't know, or words you did know in ways you didn't understand? Never, in any situation?
Because that's exactly how it feels for many, many, many new users of mastodon now.
The phrase is key because it reflects a familiarity which new users do not have. Have you never in your life been introduced to an environment you didn't understand and felt put off by everybody using words you didn't know, or words you did know in ways you didn't understand? Never, in any situation?
Because that's exactly how it feels for many, many, many new users of mastodon now.
yes. of course i have. maybe we're talking past each other, i dont know, but...
what im trying to say, again, is that their panicking is entirely unfounded.
whether you create your account at mastodon.social, fosstodon.org, mastodon.online, vis.social, toot.cat, or your friends totallyraddomainname.com--its not a life or death decision.
particularly because you can simply migrate to another server if you're picky about some minutia that most people don't care about. it feels like overblown fearmongering.
sure, maybe they're experience analysis paralysis, which is definitely a problem sometimes for those who are terrified of technology, but at the end of the day it is over analyzing. one of the reasons mastodon so drastically overtook other federated attempts is because it made it possible to migrate without losing your followers, you just move and poof, you're done. it removes the importance to which server you choose.
what im trying to say, again, is that their panicking is entirely unfounded.
whether you create your account at mastodon.social, fosstodon.org, mastodon.online, vis.social, toot.cat, or your friends totallyraddomainname.com--its not a life or death decision.
particularly because you can simply migrate to another server if you're picky about some minutia that most people don't care about. it feels like overblown fearmongering.
sure, maybe they're experience analysis paralysis, which is definitely a problem sometimes for those who are terrified of technology, but at the end of the day it is over analyzing. one of the reasons mastodon so drastically overtook other federated attempts is because it made it possible to migrate without losing your followers, you just move and poof, you're done. it removes the importance to which server you choose.
Okay, so you're in the half of comments saying it really doesn't matter which server one picks. I hate to tell you this, but there are others recommending pretty strongly that one pick a server that aligns with their interests or identity, which is a challenge given that all available lists of servers seem to include a lot of exclusionary language, at least for me.
As it happens, I picked a server earlier today, more or less at random (one that didn't manually review applications), so I'm set. But the experience was very negative, and fraught with apparent peril.
If the choice of server matters so little, perhaps this site could be improved: https://joinmastodon.org/servers
As it happens, I picked a server earlier today, more or less at random (one that didn't manually review applications), so I'm set. But the experience was very negative, and fraught with apparent peril.
If the choice of server matters so little, perhaps this site could be improved: https://joinmastodon.org/servers
While it's confusing at first I don't think it really hampers acceptance. I think the general advice is to first create an account on mastodon.social and then to move on once you find something you like more.
Which is great advice--except that mastodon.social is not accepting new users, throwing everyone who has received that advice into confusion from step 1.
You can use mastodon this way of course and ignore the local feed.
I mean coming from Twitter the entire idea of a "local feed" is already so weird. Why would I want to follow random people?
Because you happened to notice they were interesting?
If I own a domain I can host my email anywhere. I own the name, and every possible address. Mastodon does not have nearly the same level of portability and ownership. This is why I think AT is more promising.
> Mastodon does not have nearly the same level of portability and ownership.
how so? its just a protocol, just like email. which concerns do you have that it is not as portable as email?
how so? its just a protocol, just like email. which concerns do you have that it is not as portable as email?
I can move my email host and my mail keeps coming to me. Mastodon you need to set up some weird redirects from one server to another. It’s the difference between forwarding your Hotmail to your new gmail vs just swapping your provider and keeping your domain the same.
I understand coming from Twitter --where artificial choices are manufactured in order to extract value from things like outrage and fear-- it might be overwhelming to experience real choice for the first time. We made a tool for that, so lets help find you an instance youll enjoy :) dont worry, you can shop around for the right one, your choice isnt set in stone at all.
https://instances.social/
https://instances.social/
Except even that tool sucks. I can't even use the list to filter for things that are say... less then 1k users, have an uptime of 95% or higher, and have A+ grade HTTPs. Whatever A+ HTTPS that means, it's also not explained on that site. Hell you can't even filter on registrations and actually up at the same time.
Sorry for the rant, my previous instance went read only, and I had to go find a new one. I know what i want and not being bale to search for it except by rough approximations was incredibly annoying.
Sorry for the rant, my previous instance went read only, and I had to go find a new one. I know what i want and not being bale to search for it except by rough approximations was incredibly annoying.
Then lets work to make it better! most of your mastodon stuff is open source. Reach out to the maintainer on Github and let them know :)
https://github.com/TheKinrar/instances
https://github.com/TheKinrar/instances
You know, this is a good call out.
I've been looking for a small project to work on and this is perfect.
I've been looking for a small project to work on and this is perfect.
It's nice, but I find myself saying "Don't care" to most of the questions, and I've got a huge list of instances as a result. I still can't really say for sure I'd be picking one I wouldn't regret picking later.
I think the biggest questions I'd have are: - How do I know an instance is trustworthy and the mods behave professionally? - How do I know an instance isn't going to go down and lose my account?
It seems like there's this "local community" idea where when you join a server, it's like a mini-twitter in its own right. It's a cool idea, but then it seems like part of the decision of which instance to join should be whether you feel like that local community is a good fit for you?
I think the biggest questions I'd have are: - How do I know an instance is trustworthy and the mods behave professionally? - How do I know an instance isn't going to go down and lose my account?
It seems like there's this "local community" idea where when you join a server, it's like a mini-twitter in its own right. It's a cool idea, but then it seems like part of the decision of which instance to join should be whether you feel like that local community is a good fit for you?
I really think this a less impactful decision than people seem to think unless your interests are extremely narrow. If you can’t decide, pick mastodon.social for a start. It’s extremely well moderated (from Germany) and has a diverse set of users. And you get to interact with people from other instances anyway.
Except that you can't currently create new accounts on mastodon.social.
Not allowing new signups.
I said I only speak English, and the first page of results includes several servers with names and descriptions not in English. If I spoke German or Japanese, I'd have said so. If a server technically allows English but is mostly for Deutsch or Nihongo speakers, that's not what I expected when I said show me English servers.
Yes, my problems with data portability are indeed evidence I can’t handle choices in my information diet.
Mastodon just doubled its active user count to around one million; it's already benefited. It doesn't need to replace Twitter to succeed, just provide value to its userbase.
Mastodon instances have certainly gained tons of new users...but, wait 'til some people learn that the fediverse has been around since ~2008, and the current numbers are far higher than *only "mastodon"*. For example, i'm seeing over 6 million accounts as captured before end of October: https://fediverse.party/en/fediverse/
Of course, on the fediverse, no one cares about adoption numbers. :-)
Of course, on the fediverse, no one cares about adoption numbers. :-)
I think it’d be better to judge it once those users have had a little time to try it. I signed up but couldn’t find anyone to follow, found the lack discoverability baffling, and ultimately bounced off.
Barrier to entry is just one problem. The main one is reach. 99% of the value of Twitter is its reach. Posting messages is easy. I'm sure a thousand entrepreneurs have figured out how to collect 140-character messages, follow and reply. But they will collect dust unless they get seen by 100M people. That means having that many users on one platform, one platform for content creators to promote, and a single place for advertisers to spend to support operation.
You might be assuming that people interested in being on the fediverse have the goal of excessive reach. I acknowledge that some coming over from twitter might be interested in such a goal....but those individuals might simply not fully understand the compelling value that the fediverse (and mastodon instances) often represent. Not everyone wants/needs to reach 100M people.
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise excessive/massive reach...The Fediverse might offer less, but richer interactions.
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise users as cattle/"eyeballs" to ad buyers...The Fediverse offers none of that. (Though, individual instancves have every right and possibility if they so choose to create their own ecosystem of ads to pay for their operations, and their people would need to know that of course)
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise a platform for creators to publish their content to a wide audience...The Fediverse offers the same publishing (or better) capabilities and tools, but to a smaller audience...and, at least the existing creators on the Fedi are quite cool with that; most prefer it that way!
To me, living on the Fedi, is like people purposefully, willfully, happily (and not accidentally nor due to duress) moving to the rural country away from the big city...and not caring that others feel like "hey, the big city living is where everything is awesome" ;-)
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise excessive/massive reach...The Fediverse might offer less, but richer interactions.
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise users as cattle/"eyeballs" to ad buyers...The Fediverse offers none of that. (Though, individual instancves have every right and possibility if they so choose to create their own ecosystem of ads to pay for their operations, and their people would need to know that of course)
- While, twitter (& other commercial socials) promise a platform for creators to publish their content to a wide audience...The Fediverse offers the same publishing (or better) capabilities and tools, but to a smaller audience...and, at least the existing creators on the Fedi are quite cool with that; most prefer it that way!
To me, living on the Fedi, is like people purposefully, willfully, happily (and not accidentally nor due to duress) moving to the rural country away from the big city...and not caring that others feel like "hey, the big city living is where everything is awesome" ;-)
You're right but also you're discounting the value of the Twitter model. Twitter sells eyeballs, but they also give away reach to creators. Politicians may use the platform to amplify nonsense but a lot of them use the platform for good as well. Same with journalists which is the primary reason I'm there. It's easy to follow the kind of people I'm interested in hearing more from and they're all in one place. Looking at ads is the price paid for a free service with adequate moderation. For personal connections or interest groups, there's no shortage of existing platforms that do the job better than Mastodon.
> 99% of the value of Twitter is its reach.
For marketers, politicians and others that use Twitter as a megaphone for their personal brand.
Everybody else just wants to see funny memes, cat pictures and occasionally have the small topic conversations that make Twitter occasionally worth it.
For marketers, politicians and others that use Twitter as a megaphone for their personal brand.
Everybody else just wants to see funny memes, cat pictures and occasionally have the small topic conversations that make Twitter occasionally worth it.
Reddit is better at that than Mastodon
You’re correct here. Even historically federated services, like email, are referred to by grandmas as “my AOL”. They don’t even think about the fact that others don’t have AOL, they just grab a name out of an address book they’ve been building for the last 20 years.
Just because email exists as a federated thing doesn’t mean existing users could use it if they had to sign up for it again.
Just because email exists as a federated thing doesn’t mean existing users could use it if they had to sign up for it again.
> The fact that one has to pick from many different places to set up an account is a massive barrier to entry...
I wonder if a statement exactly like the above one was said about alternative email providers being coinsidered by many AOL.com account holder so many years ago?
> ...I don’t see this platform being able to benefit from the Twitter exodus...
I suppoose it depends on how "benefit" is defined. But, also, Mastodon might be considered a platform, but (thankfully!) it only represents a single slice of the greater fediverse.
Ultimately, if people chose NOT to migrate over to the fediverse, or choose NOT to use the mastodon stack, or do NOT join an instance, etc..., that's still ok, and not considered a "fail". The fediverse is not an industry, nor a competitive landscape in the same fashion that twitter, facebook and other commercial platforms might operate. In fact, the fediverse is not even a platform at all; its a federated network.
I wonder if a statement exactly like the above one was said about alternative email providers being coinsidered by many AOL.com account holder so many years ago?
> ...I don’t see this platform being able to benefit from the Twitter exodus...
I suppoose it depends on how "benefit" is defined. But, also, Mastodon might be considered a platform, but (thankfully!) it only represents a single slice of the greater fediverse.
Ultimately, if people chose NOT to migrate over to the fediverse, or choose NOT to use the mastodon stack, or do NOT join an instance, etc..., that's still ok, and not considered a "fail". The fediverse is not an industry, nor a competitive landscape in the same fashion that twitter, facebook and other commercial platforms might operate. In fact, the fediverse is not even a platform at all; its a federated network.
Yeah, and what happened with email is everyone moved to gmail and corporate servers. Having a choice of hosts is not something most people are looking for.
if mastodon continues with the growth and hits some kind of critical mass, im sure eventually most people will end up on a few concentrated servers. that just makes sense for people who aren't interested in minutia and want details abstracted away. tons of people use gmail and an awful lot of people don't, they make their own choices.
the people who do care about otehr things can go to the more specialized servers. everyone wins.
getting back to a norm where people have choice seems ideal from my perspective.
the people who do care about otehr things can go to the more specialized servers. everyone wins.
getting back to a norm where people have choice seems ideal from my perspective.
Agree. The moment you get into "Well, Mastodon is distributed networking software with different nodes, and you've got to ..." you have already lost a large percent of users. People expect to fill out a familiar registration form, and immediately be able to see/write posts.
I think a lot of the complexity of it could be hidden away so that the average user has a similar experience to a Twitter signup, but idk how much friction it would cause to make something like this appear centralized.
I think a lot of the complexity of it could be hidden away so that the average user has a similar experience to a Twitter signup, but idk how much friction it would cause to make something like this appear centralized.
Kind of like picking gmail or hotmail is a barrier to entry to using email?
This is an interesting point, but many have heard of those providers and they're very popular, very established, and you can generally count on a very professional and reliable service.
What I see though is that there are dozens of servers, none of which I know anything about. So it's more like if you had to select an e-mail provider from a list of domains you've never heard of before. Not impossible, but not as easy as signing up on twitter.com.
What I see though is that there are dozens of servers, none of which I know anything about. So it's more like if you had to select an e-mail provider from a list of domains you've never heard of before. Not impossible, but not as easy as signing up on twitter.com.
I'm more interested in what the Spritely project is doing along these lines: https://spritely.institute/
...but agreed that ultimately being strongly tied to an instance run by someone else is not ideal. I'm glad there are people working on it!
...but agreed that ultimately being strongly tied to an instance run by someone else is not ideal. I'm glad there are people working on it!
I recently bumped into this issue and simply decided to not bother with Mastodon.
> I’m putting my hopes on blue sky/AT which appears to solve the above pain points
How does AT solve this specific pain point?
How does AT solve this specific pain point?
> ...woefully complex...in for more pain.
this is incredibly incredibly hyperbolic if ive ever seen hyperbole.
i just migrated my account the other day (i wanted to move onto a friends server) and it was absolutely not "woefully complex"
this is incredibly incredibly hyperbolic if ive ever seen hyperbole.
i just migrated my account the other day (i wanted to move onto a friends server) and it was absolutely not "woefully complex"
I saw a good quote - something along the lines that Mastodon replacing Twitter has serious "year of linux on the desktop vibes".
I think there's value in Mastodon, but it's not a drop-in twitter replacement. Perhaps a valuable thing would be helping set it up as a POSSE tool: https://indieweb.org/POSSE - post to your Mastodon and it automatically posts to Twitter for you.
I think there's value in Mastodon, but it's not a drop-in twitter replacement. Perhaps a valuable thing would be helping set it up as a POSSE tool: https://indieweb.org/POSSE - post to your Mastodon and it automatically posts to Twitter for you.
I bricked my Linux system while trying to uninstall python, on one of the most "user friendly" systems, and they had no way to restore like Windows does with system restore.
I'm still using it because Windows requires accounts now and screw that, but man, Linux has tried hard to get me to go do something else.
I do not understand how these projects are just so consistently bad at UX. It takes effort, but UX should be priority number one, even over new functionality.
I'm still using it because Windows requires accounts now and screw that, but man, Linux has tried hard to get me to go do something else.
I do not understand how these projects are just so consistently bad at UX. It takes effort, but UX should be priority number one, even over new functionality.
yeah, ive been screaming for a while that our biggest failure in f/oss has been how little weight we give to UX. and particularly how little we court the UX community. the UX folks ive spent some time talking to just haven't seen much in terms of recruiting from us and it really shows.
for better or worse its probably one of the larger reasons our projects are so locked into corporate influence.
for better or worse its probably one of the larger reasons our projects are so locked into corporate influence.
This is solved on windows by simply not allowing you to install python because an automated first party windows update already bricked your system...
I've always found modern Linux systems to have a great UX. I'm mildly tech orientated but not super into customization or anything, and never had any problems after Ubuntu got the application center done.
Of course trying to install drivers for a 56k modem while not having internet access was a different experience 25 years ago.
Of course trying to install drivers for a 56k modem while not having internet access was a different experience 25 years ago.
Linuxes are getting good at "the normal path, plus a bit" - Ubuntu is quite usable for basic things these days.
Where they fall off the rails is when you try to do something you're "not supposed to do" (like removing python) - then you're often better off with the weird distros like Gentoo or Mint; at least someone likely broke it the same way before.
Where they fall off the rails is when you try to do something you're "not supposed to do" (like removing python) - then you're often better off with the weird distros like Gentoo or Mint; at least someone likely broke it the same way before.
Looks great as an experimental platform. Unlike big social networks, it's a niche where things can still be tried, different choices made, both on the technology and organisation side. Technology - having the server instance moved to the user's side, throws some decisions - for better and or worse - back in the user's court. Interesting consequence - user can move that data and the social graph from one server to another. Like porting a mobile telephone number from one mobile network to the other. Number porting was not possible on the mobile networks to start with - now we all have it, don't think it strange. Fediverse with group(s) of servers decididing whether to federate other server(s) or not - also has interesting consequences Re: organisation of large social network(s). And so on. I find the experience refreshing. One gets to see and interact with the people making decisions - unlike TW or FB, they are not faceless. The root on my instance already mentioned "I'm not comfortable moderating all these new people's social".
Mastadon doesn't really promise to be a drop-in Twitter replacement. Some of the differences that people perceive as friction are deliberate choices to keep it from being that. To avoid some of the problems that are driving people away from Twitter.
I too decided to try Mastodon recently.
But I didn't try it out because of Twitter's recent news, I tried it out because I haven't enjoyed Twitter for a long while.
Mastodon is providing for many people what they haven't seen in Twitter for quite some time. A social site that seems to have a soul. Also, many of the people I've found on Mastodon still use Twitter.
The two serve different purposes. Just like you don't talk about "Instagram OR Twitter," it's not about "Twitter OR Mastodon."
We have choices now. And Mastodon is more on the radar now than ever. Happy that new people are hearing about it and finding value there.
But I didn't try it out because of Twitter's recent news, I tried it out because I haven't enjoyed Twitter for a long while.
Mastodon is providing for many people what they haven't seen in Twitter for quite some time. A social site that seems to have a soul. Also, many of the people I've found on Mastodon still use Twitter.
The two serve different purposes. Just like you don't talk about "Instagram OR Twitter," it's not about "Twitter OR Mastodon."
We have choices now. And Mastodon is more on the radar now than ever. Happy that new people are hearing about it and finding value there.
I've played around with mastodon for a few years; it never has had the the dopaminergic algorithm-fueled bite to keep me coming back like twitter does. But that's the good part, I guess.
I think my #1 issue with it is it's fundamental feature - that spaces/servers/communities/domains (whatever the name is) are self-hosted by anyone. That means if they get disinterested, or the power goes out, or they get frustrated, the plug is pulled. They also set the rules, which are too often on two extremes - extremely nit-picky (like cursing or off-topic toots aren't allowed) or a free-for-all.
I think my #1 issue with it is it's fundamental feature - that spaces/servers/communities/domains (whatever the name is) are self-hosted by anyone. That means if they get disinterested, or the power goes out, or they get frustrated, the plug is pulled. They also set the rules, which are too often on two extremes - extremely nit-picky (like cursing or off-topic toots aren't allowed) or a free-for-all.
>That means if they get disinterested, or the power goes out, or they get frustrated, the plug is pulled.
This is addressed in the fedi.tips FAQ,
https://fedi.tips/how-to-use-mastodon-and-the-fediverse-basi...
This is addressed in the fedi.tips FAQ,
https://fedi.tips/how-to-use-mastodon-and-the-fediverse-basi...
>However, all of the servers listed at JoinMastodon.org ⧉ are required to give at least three months notice if this happens.
Ah yes, because that's totally going to be legally enforced or something.
Ah yes, because that's totally going to be legally enforced or something.
No one should be forced to join any instance, so you are right to think of concerns...But, there are things that can be done to help keep an admin incentivized. For example, if the instance is expected to be run as a community projec,t then admins should committ in a manner that is accepted by the instance community (i guess not so different from open source projects)...Or, maybe have more than a single admin to fend off any single person losing interest...Or, you know, leverage the capitalist mechanism of paying some small fee to a group to help cover hosting, admin fees, etc. I'm sure there are other mechanisms that can be used...Anbd, there's of course the tools to move your stuyff to another instanace anyway...But, yeah, you shoiuld go into this stuff with eyes open - muich like other things on the internet. :-)
> but the protocol they use to communicate (ActivityPub)
I stopped reading here. Most people who aren't tech savvy (much less professionally famous engineers) aren't going to want to learn this nonsense, much less see cased words like this that reek of geekdom. Everything about Mastodon (and the Fediverse) seems like it's catered to people who are already are (or who think they are) mentally all in on the concept.
I dunno, maybe things will change given enough time, money and new users, but right now Mastodon seems like something that people just post to with very little comments and interaction.
I stopped reading here. Most people who aren't tech savvy (much less professionally famous engineers) aren't going to want to learn this nonsense, much less see cased words like this that reek of geekdom. Everything about Mastodon (and the Fediverse) seems like it's catered to people who are already are (or who think they are) mentally all in on the concept.
I dunno, maybe things will change given enough time, money and new users, but right now Mastodon seems like something that people just post to with very little comments and interaction.
Most people who aren’t tech savvy aren’t reading Martin Fowler’s blog. It’s okay for bloggers to write for their expected audience, rather than having to think “how will what I am writing be interpreted by all possible readers, e.g., literally everyone who can access this web site.”
As for Mastodon itself, yeah, it would be nice if it got better about its terminology and “marketing” to people who aren’t nerds, although one can argue this is endemic to open source culture at this point (cue unceasing arguments about Calibre’s wacky UI choices, The Gimp’s arguably offensive name, and so on). Those are trivially solvable problems, though.
If Mastodon is “something that people just post to with very little comments and interaction,” I would suggest that it’s long been a network effect issue; it’s very hard to get any new system that depends on user-constructed social graphs off the ground, until or unless that graph exceeds some hard-to-define node count level for a sufficient number of users. Anecdotally, I have seen a lot more activity on Mastodon over the last week; whether enough will stick to push it over that magic number remains to be seen.
As for Mastodon itself, yeah, it would be nice if it got better about its terminology and “marketing” to people who aren’t nerds, although one can argue this is endemic to open source culture at this point (cue unceasing arguments about Calibre’s wacky UI choices, The Gimp’s arguably offensive name, and so on). Those are trivially solvable problems, though.
If Mastodon is “something that people just post to with very little comments and interaction,” I would suggest that it’s long been a network effect issue; it’s very hard to get any new system that depends on user-constructed social graphs off the ground, until or unless that graph exceeds some hard-to-define node count level for a sufficient number of users. Anecdotally, I have seen a lot more activity on Mastodon over the last week; whether enough will stick to push it over that magic number remains to be seen.
Similarly I saw a lot of activity there in the spring when Musk made his first attempt, and it didn't last.
I have worked in tech for 30 years. I agree 100%. Any twitter alternative needs to be as easy and seamless as Twitter itself. The first step being a decision on where to set up an account is a non-starter for a huge number of people. Haven't we all learned the UX lesson of reducing choices?
I don't find twitter to be seamless nor easy. They have reduced my choices to the point where I can't actually see what I want to see without doing a bunch of research into how to 'game' the system.
Looking at my home page right now, Elon is at the top saying that "Twitter needs to become by far the most accurate source of information about the world. That’s our mission." Followed by an advert from a company I didn't subscribe to, and then a bunch of meaningless personal tweets from people I don't know and I didn't subscribe to. One news item on the whole page.
I get regular email notifications updating me on the latest paranoid rants from various right wing 'rebel' groups (that I definitely didn't subscribe to), and I cannot find any way to stop them because they only show up in my emails, not in my feed. There's no way I can see to block them. That's not seamless nor easy.
The email notifications I do want cut off important headlines half way through the sentence, forcing me to log into the platform just to read what might have happened. No way to configure that either. Certainly not seamless nor easy.
Looking at my home page right now, Elon is at the top saying that "Twitter needs to become by far the most accurate source of information about the world. That’s our mission." Followed by an advert from a company I didn't subscribe to, and then a bunch of meaningless personal tweets from people I don't know and I didn't subscribe to. One news item on the whole page.
I get regular email notifications updating me on the latest paranoid rants from various right wing 'rebel' groups (that I definitely didn't subscribe to), and I cannot find any way to stop them because they only show up in my emails, not in my feed. There's no way I can see to block them. That's not seamless nor easy.
The email notifications I do want cut off important headlines half way through the sentence, forcing me to log into the platform just to read what might have happened. No way to configure that either. Certainly not seamless nor easy.
>The first step being a decision on where to set up an account is a non-starter for a huge number of people
then the should just stay on twitter. The entire differentiator between Mastodon and Twitter is choice. It's akin to complaining about the fact that there's 50 states in the US and you have multiple elections to take part in and decide where you wanna live. It's all very complicated.
Any technology that empowers people by definition makes it so they need to make their own choices. If these decentralized systems are to have any purpose it needs to stay that way. If that means you lose 90% of users, fine so be it honestly.
then the should just stay on twitter. The entire differentiator between Mastodon and Twitter is choice. It's akin to complaining about the fact that there's 50 states in the US and you have multiple elections to take part in and decide where you wanna live. It's all very complicated.
Any technology that empowers people by definition makes it so they need to make their own choices. If these decentralized systems are to have any purpose it needs to stay that way. If that means you lose 90% of users, fine so be it honestly.
> then the should just stay on twitter. The entire differentiator between Mastodon and Twitter is choice
There's that OSS elitism we all know and love so much.
There's that OSS elitism we all know and love so much.
it's literally the opposite of elitism. Demanding of people that they need to take control of the tools that they use and making tools that empower them recognizes that they are at least in principle able to do just that.What's really elitist is thinking that every piece of software needs to spoon-feed content to its users and eliminate all their choices because they're really too infantile to be bothered to make any decisions at all.
Crazy world we're in where recognizing the potential for, and asking people to take control of their own actions is considered to be a symptom of elitism
Crazy world we're in where recognizing the potential for, and asking people to take control of their own actions is considered to be a symptom of elitism
Well, Martin Fowler is a tech guy who writes largely for an audience of tech people. It’s that surprising that tech jargon would find its way into his musings about a piece of tech he’s learning about. And certainly doesn’t have any bearing on Mastodon itself.
This sentence is just explaining how he thinks Mastodon usage will evolve, comparing it to federated email instances and the protocol they use to communicate (SMTP). Most people who use email don't know that, and most people who use Mastodon don't know its federation protocol either.
Most people who read Fowler's blog or HN are able to understand the difference between what users need to know and how a system is implemented.
Most people who read Fowler's blog or HN are able to understand the difference between what users need to know and how a system is implemented.
The author explains a bit of how things work, but no one ever said you need to read the full spec to use it. Just like it's better to know your car has an engine, but you don't need to know the details of how the engine works to drive your car. Sharing knowledge, and the reader can decide what level of detail they want to keep.
you should log in and see all the very non-tech people who have joined
I don’t know much about Mastodon, so wondering: can I see chatter without logging in? Where do I go to see it (discovery)?
You can visit any available instance and view their public feeds. For example, I use Fosstodon, so you visit the site[0] and click on "See what's happening" to preview the local feed, or navigate to the /public page.
It's up to the instance to expose the "Explore", "Local", and "Federated" feeds. Fosstodon only exposes the local one to unauthenticated users.
[0] https://fosstodon.org
It's up to the instance to expose the "Explore", "Local", and "Federated" feeds. Fosstodon only exposes the local one to unauthenticated users.
[0] https://fosstodon.org
I clicked your link and found a "Why is Fosstodon currently down?" page.
this is a tech website so I'm sure you can appreciate the need for urgent migrations given the sudden changes in userbase
Absolutely. Been there, lived through that myself.
I'm sure you can appreciate that every one of these issues impacts the uptake of mastodon, of course.
I'm sure you can appreciate that every one of these issues impacts the uptake of mastodon, of course.
fosstodon is not the server that non-technical people would be going towards in any case and it also isn't accepting new registrations right now. the main server mastodon.social, that's the big one that's getting killed also.
despite all this, a lot of prominent people have joined (to be clear, left leaning journalists, attorneys and economists, but Paul Krugman did win a nobel prize)
despite all this, a lot of prominent people have joined (to be clear, left leaning journalists, attorneys and economists, but Paul Krugman did win a nobel prize)
me neither, only been on for a few days. here's the public stream from the server I'm on server https://fosstodon.org/public
the "main" mastodon.social server is mostly unreachable, that would be at: https://mastodon.social/public
the "main" mastodon.social server is mostly unreachable, that would be at: https://mastodon.social/public
I don't know why the server choice is so downplayed when instances can block each other and if you end up on a "wrong one" (the peer pressure to avoid guilt by association is really really strong if you look around) then you have to move around, your name changes etc. Feels like the single user self-hosting is the only way to go but I'm not sure most people would do that (let alone realize how the whole system works)
And personally whole thing feels like a weird combination of reddit and Discord where you choose your sub/server then Twitter tbh
And personally whole thing feels like a weird combination of reddit and Discord where you choose your sub/server then Twitter tbh
I stopped using Twitter years ago - the signal to noise ratio is quite low and you have to spend a lot of time curating to even achieve that! Honestly, HN satisfies my needs for geek news and Reddit has me covered for my hobbies. I really don't see a need for these kinds of social networks any longer. At least not for me.
Thoughtworks runs their own instance. They adopted Mastodon a very long time ago.
https://toot.thoughtworks.com/about
https://toot.thoughtworks.com/about
Getting a 502 Bad Gateway from that.
well when you throw a ton of HN traffic at it it'll probably cook the underlying components.
12,000 Thoughtworkers and only 78 active users on their instance though.
Active in this instance means online in the last month.
Ok, so the DAU is likely worse.
I'm quite a bit unimpressed by (actual and armchair) UX and product experts' commentary jumping on Mastodon's rough edges -- yes, a lot of us know it's a bit clunky and the onboarding hasn't been A/B tested to death, and the UI/UX hasn't been hyper-optimised for LE EPIC ENGAGEMENT and that's perfectly fine!
It's arguably not ready for full mainstream adoption right now, but hopefully that'll continue to change as the tech crowd uptake increases and the contributions to the core/protocol/apps goes up as well.
I like the community feel of the somewhat smaller instance that I moved my presenec over to (from mastodon.technology, which is shutting down), and there's a frisson of the original excitement I felt when exploring early communications services on the interwebs like IRC.
It's arguably not ready for full mainstream adoption right now, but hopefully that'll continue to change as the tech crowd uptake increases and the contributions to the core/protocol/apps goes up as well.
I like the community feel of the somewhat smaller instance that I moved my presenec over to (from mastodon.technology, which is shutting down), and there's a frisson of the original excitement I felt when exploring early communications services on the interwebs like IRC.
I'm a lot less concerned about UX/onboarding issues than about the fact that the simplistic federation model is going to fall apart long before they even reach 1/10 of Twitter's scale. Now, if you're OK with having a lot of smaller communities that only communicate sporadically, forcing people to have ten identities and ten tabs open to participate effectively in each one, that's not a problem. However, if you want to have a single identity fully participating in multiple communities, then the federation model needs to improve a lot. The current ad hoc relays are just the first step on a long road toward a network/proxy/cache layer that can reduce the unnecessary latency and load on the servers themselves, to provide a federated experience beyond the old FIDOnet level. There are lessons to be learned from IRC, Usenet, and P2P file sharing that can help with this.
The web itself has a proxy/cache layer, what more is needed? I don’t think it’s inherently unavailable as it is, no more than RSS readers were.
HTTP caching doesn't work as well as it could for ActivityPub data patterns as it does for popular single sites, and AFAICT the servers don't do the things necessary to make it even as effective as it could be. There's a reason big Mastodon instances need to devote so many resources to Sidekiq.
I'm reminded of something that Yishan said, which is that the #1 problem with social networks isn't free speech. Rather it's spam, which passes every "free speech" test to be undangerous yet unpleasant.
Good luck with that Mastodon. I too would like a Twitter+, but in aiming for the + you're actually losing a ton of base features that users in fact care about, like antispam and "one big universe" with good signal to noise.
Good luck with that Mastodon. I too would like a Twitter+, but in aiming for the + you're actually losing a ton of base features that users in fact care about, like antispam and "one big universe" with good signal to noise.
I am not sure I can express this enough: the onboarding experience is overwhelmingly confusing.
I've already ended up dumped on a page with a long list of servers, and it's not clear whether this choice matters or not. Half the comments here say it does, half say it doesn't!
But let's see my choices today: ruby.social, todon.eu, hostux.social, Glasgow.social, metalhead.net, socel.net, machteburch.social, activism.openworlds.info, eldritch.cafe, toot.wales, tooting.ch, sfba.social, indieweb.social, tech.lgbt, lor.sh "Yet another server," tilde.zone, ieji.de, is.nota.live, libretooth.gr, mastodonapp.uk, ravenation.club, climatejustice.social, noc.social, maly.io, mastodon.nz, qoto.org, mastodon.ie, and I'm tired of pasting, but literally NONE OF THE ABOVE seem to be for me!
And again, I don't know how much this matters, but it feels overwhelming. Also, a startlingly high percentage of socialist and otherwise left-leaning servers in that initial list, which might be intended, or might just be coincidentally arrayed to drive away people who are offended by such things.
The worst part about this is, I'm pretty sure I signed up with mastodon back when it was first launched, but I can't remember the server, so...
I've already ended up dumped on a page with a long list of servers, and it's not clear whether this choice matters or not. Half the comments here say it does, half say it doesn't!
But let's see my choices today: ruby.social, todon.eu, hostux.social, Glasgow.social, metalhead.net, socel.net, machteburch.social, activism.openworlds.info, eldritch.cafe, toot.wales, tooting.ch, sfba.social, indieweb.social, tech.lgbt, lor.sh "Yet another server," tilde.zone, ieji.de, is.nota.live, libretooth.gr, mastodonapp.uk, ravenation.club, climatejustice.social, noc.social, maly.io, mastodon.nz, qoto.org, mastodon.ie, and I'm tired of pasting, but literally NONE OF THE ABOVE seem to be for me!
And again, I don't know how much this matters, but it feels overwhelming. Also, a startlingly high percentage of socialist and otherwise left-leaning servers in that initial list, which might be intended, or might just be coincidentally arrayed to drive away people who are offended by such things.
The worst part about this is, I'm pretty sure I signed up with mastodon back when it was first launched, but I can't remember the server, so...
edited: make a monetary contribution to the project along with your PR
> submit a pull request then.
Thanks for this! I now have a go-to example of why mastodon is not a viable replacement for twitter, one literally everybody should understand.
Thanks for this! I now have a go-to example of why mastodon is not a viable replacement for twitter, one literally everybody should understand.
I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcasm. I feel like it should be sarcasm.
cynicism at this point.
anyone finding faults with Masto should take the AP protocol and write their own implementation. The monoculture of the Mastoverse is less than ideal and the space is much more interesting when you figure out the secret sauce (ActivityPub)
anyone finding faults with Masto should take the AP protocol and write their own implementation. The monoculture of the Mastoverse is less than ideal and the space is much more interesting when you figure out the secret sauce (ActivityPub)
What I'm looking for is effectively a fidonet style federation. I understand Lemmy is bordering on that, but it's not quite there from my observation, and I'm yet to see a suitable implementation that would entice an old fart like me.
There is nothing to prevent a set of instances from agreeing on a common set of operating rules or even common high-level management a la Fidonet or the way IRC networks are managed. If the Fediverse continues to grow, I would expect that something like that would naturally evolve.
There's some subtle technical differences that would need to be overcome, and I cannot see the existing encumbents agreeing to those differences.
First, take private messaging - on Mastodon, if @alice and @dave talk about @mallory, @mallory will be pulled into the conversation. With Fidonet, in it's simplest terms, private messaging was private.
Second, if there is a forum / discussion board for / called Java on ProgrammerWoes.fiction and a forum / discussion board for / called Java on ProgrammerSuccess.fiction then with the existing solutions a person comes along and they are unsure which is better, and one eventually dies, or a third springs up, etc.
With Fidonet, there was one forum per topic - the contents of which was federated, so you didn't end up with two Java forums.
Yes, we have hundreds of programming forums - but there's a reason people flock to Twitter or more specifically Reddit to discuss a topic that goes beyond simply signal to noise - it's that they aren't flooded with a confusing choice.
First, take private messaging - on Mastodon, if @alice and @dave talk about @mallory, @mallory will be pulled into the conversation. With Fidonet, in it's simplest terms, private messaging was private.
Second, if there is a forum / discussion board for / called Java on ProgrammerWoes.fiction and a forum / discussion board for / called Java on ProgrammerSuccess.fiction then with the existing solutions a person comes along and they are unsure which is better, and one eventually dies, or a third springs up, etc.
With Fidonet, there was one forum per topic - the contents of which was federated, so you didn't end up with two Java forums.
Yes, we have hundreds of programming forums - but there's a reason people flock to Twitter or more specifically Reddit to discuss a topic that goes beyond simply signal to noise - it's that they aren't flooded with a confusing choice.
I've had an account on 2 instances (was 3, but 1 vanished) for a couple years now and the biggest thing that I personally run into as a roadblock - ages. Fediverse users are way younger than me. I'm in my late 40s and grew up with usenet/etc, so the tech hurdle wasn't that steep but finding people that I connect with at all has just not happened. I follow a few folks here and there but that's really about it.
It's amazing how the little silos of content can be so isolating.
It's amazing how the little silos of content can be so isolating.
This feels like a return to BBS culture and FIDOnet. Which was good mix of local and federated discussion.
I don’t think it is as much of a barrier to entry as people expect.
I don’t think it is as much of a barrier to entry as people expect.
Regarding profile verification, Mastadon suggests doing it by putting an anchor tag with a link to your profile on a website. In this article the author suggests you can do it with a `<link>` tag instead. I prefer the link tag to an anchor tag so I'm going to try that right now...
Can't think of a name worse than "mastodon" for a consumer app. A name like that won't help.
I don't see anything wrong with "mastodon" but "toot" bothers me even more than "tweet" did.
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Are there any servers with transparent open governance? Debian provides a great example
Mastodon is a Confediverse.
After looking at what Jack built; it seems he's actually created a Fediverse.
After looking at what Jack built; it seems he's actually created a Fediverse.
Honestly, I feel like Mastodon just reinvented FidoNet, but over TCP/IP.
> The most important arbiter of content moderation is the reader. My decisions on who I follow should indicate what content I want to see. That control is undermined by commercial services that maximize engagement to sell attention to advertisers.
This is why ad-based social networks are inherently problematic unless/until they switch to an ad-free model, which means paywalled, but I would pay $2/month for a Twitter-like service that wasn't ad-based.
This is why ad-based social networks are inherently problematic unless/until they switch to an ad-free model, which means paywalled, but I would pay $2/month for a Twitter-like service that wasn't ad-based.
With Lemmy communities too. It seems that you can subscribe to a community on a given instance, but there is no such thing as cross-instance communities.
I found this disappointing because it means that for there to be a critical mass of content in a particular community so that it gains in popularity, then that particular community in that particular instance has to become popular on its own, instead of all instances contributing to one big community. Add to this that the default view is "local communities" and you've guaranteed you'll never build something as popular as reddit, sadly. Example, someone from mylemmy.eg cannot post together with someone from hislemmy.com in one big Programming forum. Instead they both have to agree to post in [email protected] and not [email protected] which, imho, is unlikely to be a successful as there being one centralized place where everyone knows to post. If they'd just remove the domain names and pool everything I think it would have a lot more chance of success.