Microsoft is turning Windows 11's Start Menu into an ad delivery system(ghacks.net)
ghacks.net
Microsoft is turning Windows 11's Start Menu into an ad delivery system
https://www.ghacks.net/2022/11/21/microsoft-is-turning-windows-11s-start-menu-into-an-advertisement-delivery-system/
151 comments
Did everyone forget booting into Windoze 10 the first time and seeing an ad for candy crush and other drivel that they immediately removed? They've been moving this way for some time and not something new. Maybe next they'll put ads where Cortana was since no one uses it. Of course this is why I've used linux 15+ years now.
Also rather annoying that local search rarely works if you aren't connected to the internet.
I don't want edge to open a bing search for some local app I was trying to launch because the internet search results came back before the local ones...
I don't want edge to open a bing search for some local app I was trying to launch because the internet search results came back before the local ones...
A while ago my site was linked from HN, and nearly all visits were from HN. Here are the OS stats of HN readers I collected:
I really shouldn't be surprised though. Mac hardware is topnotch and equivalent quality Windows laptops - if you can find one - cost hundreds of dollars more and run slower. As a developer, the only reason to use Windows today is if you need Visual Studio for .NET development.
I use Windows 11 at work. I have Windows 10 on my personal laptop and see no reason whatsoever to upgrade to Windows 11. All Microsoft seems to be doing is, bump up Windows version number whenever Apple bumps up MacOS version number, and make some minor changes (even if it makes the product worse) to justify the new version number.
iOS 36%
Mac 23%
Android 20%
Windows 17%
Linux 4%
I really shouldn't be surprised though. Mac hardware is topnotch and equivalent quality Windows laptops - if you can find one - cost hundreds of dollars more and run slower. As a developer, the only reason to use Windows today is if you need Visual Studio for .NET development.
I use Windows 11 at work. I have Windows 10 on my personal laptop and see no reason whatsoever to upgrade to Windows 11. All Microsoft seems to be doing is, bump up Windows version number whenever Apple bumps up MacOS version number, and make some minor changes (even if it makes the product worse) to justify the new version number.
> All Microsoft seems to be doing is, bump up Windows version number whenever Apple bumps up MacOS version number, and make some minor changes (even if it makes the product worse) to justify the new version number.
Spot on. I'm surprised I haven't seen this talked about more. First Microsoft skipped 9 so that they could be at the same number as Apple (X/10), called it the "last version of Windows ever" (probably because, at the time, Mac OS X was seen as the last "version" of Mac OS, and would just be dot releases until the end of time). When Apple finally bumped up from X to 11, you could almost feel Microsoft go "B-b-but 11 is one more than 10! We can't let Apple have the higher number!" And in the same breath they: Apple-ified their window corners and (some of their) icons, nerfed the Start menu, showed a complete misunderstanding of the difference between a dock and taskbar by trying their damndest to turn the latter into the former, and around the same time even offered a Spotlight-esque file search in the form of PowerToys (no complaints about PowerToys, though, it's great).
Everything I listed there paints a clear picture of Microsoft having zero vision for Windows (that's nothing new, I suppose) and simply following Apple's lead, but doing it worse.
It's really unfortunate, because, while Windows is certainly my least favorite OS, I do appreciate it for what it is and want to see it succeed. Windows 10's design language had finally matured -- it sucks to see them all but throw in the towel on ever having a clear, singular vision for Windows.
Spot on. I'm surprised I haven't seen this talked about more. First Microsoft skipped 9 so that they could be at the same number as Apple (X/10), called it the "last version of Windows ever" (probably because, at the time, Mac OS X was seen as the last "version" of Mac OS, and would just be dot releases until the end of time). When Apple finally bumped up from X to 11, you could almost feel Microsoft go "B-b-but 11 is one more than 10! We can't let Apple have the higher number!" And in the same breath they: Apple-ified their window corners and (some of their) icons, nerfed the Start menu, showed a complete misunderstanding of the difference between a dock and taskbar by trying their damndest to turn the latter into the former, and around the same time even offered a Spotlight-esque file search in the form of PowerToys (no complaints about PowerToys, though, it's great).
Everything I listed there paints a clear picture of Microsoft having zero vision for Windows (that's nothing new, I suppose) and simply following Apple's lead, but doing it worse.
It's really unfortunate, because, while Windows is certainly my least favorite OS, I do appreciate it for what it is and want to see it succeed. Windows 10's design language had finally matured -- it sucks to see them all but throw in the towel on ever having a clear, singular vision for Windows.
Oh wait, your surprise is that the Mac numbers are slightly higher than Windows? I was instead surprised that they aren't 2x or 3x that. I don't know any developers who use Windows willingly.
Windows is bad and getting worse but dealing with apple isn't exactly a pleasant alternative... i'd rather rip my teeth out...
The UI of windows keeps getting polluted with things I have to dismiss (once), but the kernel continues to get better than it was, in ways that make things way better as a gamer and much more palatable as a hobby dev. I'd rather have a windows computer and WSL for work than the shitty mac I use, and I write python for a living where windows is straight up unsupported except by third parties.
Take a look at window's Bluetooth API sometime. It's documented poorly and a lot of it simply doesn't work. Windows 10+ has the worst Bluetooth implementation of any operating system.
Microsoft just released a developer preview for audio sinking. They're advertising a feature to play audio from a Bluetooth device through your PC. Everyone else has had this feature pretty much the entire time. Windows is the only one that didn't have this feature. Windows 7 had it, though.
The driver implementation is much worse than it's ever been, and the built in UI is barely functional. It's got the absolute bare minimum to make it work and nothing else.
The state of Bluetooth on Windows today is frankly an embarrassment. It's a significant regression from windows 7, and it's put them way behind Linux and Mac.
Worst of all it's been like this for years and Microsoft hasn't done anything.
I'm a developer, and I've been fighting Bluetooth for the last three weeks. Windows updated the Bluetooth stack the other day, and some slight behavior change broke our software overnight. It's been frustrating to say the least.
Microsoft just released a developer preview for audio sinking. They're advertising a feature to play audio from a Bluetooth device through your PC. Everyone else has had this feature pretty much the entire time. Windows is the only one that didn't have this feature. Windows 7 had it, though.
The driver implementation is much worse than it's ever been, and the built in UI is barely functional. It's got the absolute bare minimum to make it work and nothing else.
The state of Bluetooth on Windows today is frankly an embarrassment. It's a significant regression from windows 7, and it's put them way behind Linux and Mac.
Worst of all it's been like this for years and Microsoft hasn't done anything.
I'm a developer, and I've been fighting Bluetooth for the last three weeks. Windows updated the Bluetooth stack the other day, and some slight behavior change broke our software overnight. It's been frustrating to say the least.
Gaming is objectively worse on everything past w7 because of forced dwm triple buffering...
Apple's better IMO unless you have to actually interact with Apple the company in, like, any way.
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I can attest. One of my friends was making fun of me yesterday because I have a precision with a 40 core Xeon, 256 gigs of RAM, tons of peripheral inputs and Pcie ssd sitting on my desk.
And instead I am docking my M2 MacBook Air to the 4K monitor to do 90% of my programming... I only turn the desktop on when I need to check or compile something on windows.
And instead I am docking my M2 MacBook Air to the 4K monitor to do 90% of my programming... I only turn the desktop on when I need to check or compile something on windows.
I do, but that's because I've used windows all my life growing up. That and Linux (and WSL2)
Though with windows going the way it is I'm probably going to use it only for my gaming rig, and do development on a laptop like Framework running a linux distro
Though with windows going the way it is I'm probably going to use it only for my gaming rig, and do development on a laptop like Framework running a linux distro
I use Windows but I never see any ads because I customize my Windows installation with some tools that you set up once every few years.
Unfortunately because the HN crowd never uses Windows they don't know you can do that and think we're all forced to play Candy crush on boot up or something. Anyone with a modicum of computer skills knows how to remove the ads and other annoying shit.
Unfortunately because the HN crowd never uses Windows they don't know you can do that and think we're all forced to play Candy crush on boot up or something. Anyone with a modicum of computer skills knows how to remove the ads and other annoying shit.
I assumed many developers would prefer Windows because you can now run real Linux inside Windows. If your server code is going to run on Linux it helps to also have Linux on your laptop.
> you can now run real Linux inside Windows
Sorta. Not that I use Windows much but from comments here on HN I inferred that the first windows subsystem for linux was decent ish. But then they launched WSL 2 that runs a VM behind the scenes with Linux in it and that limits what you can do with the rest of the OS.
Someone with actual experience please correct me if i'm wrong...
Sorta. Not that I use Windows much but from comments here on HN I inferred that the first windows subsystem for linux was decent ish. But then they launched WSL 2 that runs a VM behind the scenes with Linux in it and that limits what you can do with the rest of the OS.
Someone with actual experience please correct me if i'm wrong...
WSL is certainly not perfect. If we're just comparing default shell experiences though, WSL's environment destroys the default MacOS one. Default GNU tooling, updated bash version, a real package manager... Microsoft knows what developers want when they install Linux, and they did a nice job with the mis-en-scene.
Personally, using a Mac or Windows device is a sign that I'll be using VMs for development anyways. With WSL, that VM is tightly integrated with my host system - on MacOS it's a window into a different computer. Nowadays I'd prefer to avoid both OSes wherever possible, but I'd probably err on the side of using Windows for development simply because you can install Ubuntu with one click.
Personally, using a Mac or Windows device is a sign that I'll be using VMs for development anyways. With WSL, that VM is tightly integrated with my host system - on MacOS it's a window into a different computer. Nowadays I'd prefer to avoid both OSes wherever possible, but I'd probably err on the side of using Windows for development simply because you can install Ubuntu with one click.
I second this. WSL2 is very well integrated. You just open a terminal and have your Ubuntu (or Debian or whatever you set as default) environment ready to go. Even though it's running in a VM, whenever I start Tomcat, I can access it from the Windows side using http://localhost/... It's that well integrated. VS Code opens my projects inside WSL as if they were local.
Eh, it takes like 1 hour to setup a solid dev env on Mac.
I used to run Ubuntu for work (dell xps) but the hardware quality was infuriating. My model literally came apart (hinge detached).
I'd much rather spend the hour on dev env than spend a week without a laptop because of poor quality control
I used to run Ubuntu for work (dell xps) but the hardware quality was infuriating. My model literally came apart (hinge detached).
I'd much rather spend the hour on dev env than spend a week without a laptop because of poor quality control
I use Nix on both Mac and Linux, so my developer environments get automatically packed-in with my Git repos when I push them. It takes maybe 30 seconds to pull the repo and open a shell with either OS, but only MacOS consistently complains when doing normal stuff. I suppose all of this comes down to personal preference, but my experience has leaned in favor of using desktop Linux when the task permits.
On the contrary, I don't use a VM to do dev work on my mac, and it's TERRIBLE. Despite what people like to parrot, the mac shell is NOT linux compatible, is filled with tooling that literally cannot be used to make a modern application, and gets really really pissy if you try to do anything different.
Brew and macports have to basically start the world from scratch again on a mac to get something resembling a good work environment, and it's STILL terrible. Every single time my work laptop updates anything, I basically have to rebuild those environments again because Xcode overwrites anything I may have configured back to defaults, defaults which were deprecated and non-viable for a secure product like a decade ago. I run into issues with the included version of SSL like twice a month, all because apple refuses to do the leg work to manage the licensing for more modern versions.
Meanwhile in windows world, I can download a nearly full version of ubuntu with one click, run it as if it lives on it's own box, and yet still use tools that jump the layer between windows and linux to make it seem like it's not even there. It's pretty powerful. In some ways, the single best linux installation is the one you get on windows. It's so seamless I use powershell, CMD, and the linux shell interchangeably on my computer.
Brew and macports have to basically start the world from scratch again on a mac to get something resembling a good work environment, and it's STILL terrible. Every single time my work laptop updates anything, I basically have to rebuild those environments again because Xcode overwrites anything I may have configured back to defaults, defaults which were deprecated and non-viable for a secure product like a decade ago. I run into issues with the included version of SSL like twice a month, all because apple refuses to do the leg work to manage the licensing for more modern versions.
Meanwhile in windows world, I can download a nearly full version of ubuntu with one click, run it as if it lives on it's own box, and yet still use tools that jump the layer between windows and linux to make it seem like it's not even there. It's pretty powerful. In some ways, the single best linux installation is the one you get on windows. It's so seamless I use powershell, CMD, and the linux shell interchangeably on my computer.
Nix was the only thing holding my sanity together when I was using Mac last. Maybe it was just the Apple Silicon transition, but Homebrew did not have parity with it's x86 version which led to wildly complicated scripts just to get dev environments arranged similarly. Not the sort of thing you want to deal with regularly.
I recommend giving it a whirl if you're at your wit's end with Mac packaging: https://nixos.org/download.html#nix-install-macos
I recommend giving it a whirl if you're at your wit's end with Mac packaging: https://nixos.org/download.html#nix-install-macos
FWIW, Canonical's Multipass has given me a great WSL-ish experience on macOS.
There were 3 major pain points for me:
* USB access is more difficult than just plugging something in.
* Debugging tools like perf, RR, etc were either unsupported because they needed hardware counters or required custom builds (no system headers in apt to help either).
* The VM takes a lot of disk space.
The rest of the experience was fairly smooth. WSL2 can access the entire filesystem through /mnt/<drive letter>/. Windows -> WSL is a bit janky, but it works. GPU access is supported. Network access works. You can use a remote X session to get GUIs working, though you need to be comfortable with linux. Unfortunately having DISPLAY set caused pip to hang for long periods due to [1], but apparently that's been resolved.
All in all, it mostly replaced my windows usage by the end. It's also a great workaround for legacy IT environments where the system is configured with Windows and only Windows.
[1] https://github.com/jaraco/keyring/issues/531
* USB access is more difficult than just plugging something in.
* Debugging tools like perf, RR, etc were either unsupported because they needed hardware counters or required custom builds (no system headers in apt to help either).
* The VM takes a lot of disk space.
The rest of the experience was fairly smooth. WSL2 can access the entire filesystem through /mnt/<drive letter>/. Windows -> WSL is a bit janky, but it works. GPU access is supported. Network access works. You can use a remote X session to get GUIs working, though you need to be comfortable with linux. Unfortunately having DISPLAY set caused pip to hang for long periods due to [1], but apparently that's been resolved.
All in all, it mostly replaced my windows usage by the end. It's also a great workaround for legacy IT environments where the system is configured with Windows and only Windows.
[1] https://github.com/jaraco/keyring/issues/531
The problem with using windows isn't that you can't run Linux software, the problem is using windows. A lot of developers would prefer to run Mac or Linux, and only use windows for compiling when necessary.
Unfortunately, Windows Windows is just the worst of the major OSes today. Windows still has the most market share and the most support, and there are still things it does better than Linux. But Linux and Mac are still better options in most cases.
Unfortunately, Windows Windows is just the worst of the major OSes today. Windows still has the most market share and the most support, and there are still things it does better than Linux. But Linux and Mac are still better options in most cases.
What I'm more surprised by is Linux being at 4%.
Only 4% Linux? I guess I've always suspected HN has a surprisingly high number of Windows users but not to this extent.
Linux is not the draw it was in the Windows Vista/8 eras but still a big draw.
I guess the Mac laptop draw is bigger at the moment.
But I can not imagine running my home computer on a closed OS.
Linux is not the draw it was in the Windows Vista/8 eras but still a big draw.
I guess the Mac laptop draw is bigger at the moment.
But I can not imagine running my home computer on a closed OS.
Keep in mind this was for GPs website, meaning the visitors are self selecting based on what the context of the link is.
Wouldn't it depend on the content of the article?
I switched recently from Windows to MacOS and I have to say. This thing feels like a Linux OS that has decent app support. For an Apple product it's surprisingly open (not as much as Ubuntu for example), but still a lot better.
The fact is UNIX based also helps a lot of the development process. Microsoft added WSL which helped but doesn't beat having the actual thing.
Finally, the M1 chips are pretty damn good.
The fact is UNIX based also helps a lot of the development process. Microsoft added WSL which helped but doesn't beat having the actual thing.
Finally, the M1 chips are pretty damn good.
> For an Apple product it's surprisingly open
Now try running 32-bit software :)
Now try running 32-bit software :)
I don't need to run 32-bit software, atleast for now.
>As a developer, the only reason to use Windows today is if you need Visual Studio for .NET development.
What do you mean by developer?
Lots of embedded systems and industrial automation development is Windows-only, as a random example. Not everything is webdev or mobile. Lots of vertical markets have development environments which are essentially Windows-only.
What do you mean by developer?
Lots of embedded systems and industrial automation development is Windows-only, as a random example. Not everything is webdev or mobile. Lots of vertical markets have development environments which are essentially Windows-only.
Windows 11 feels like a more invasive, user-hostile, worse performing Chromebook.
I installed Ubuntu with my last laptop for home and I'm not looking back. Thanks, Microsoft for turning me to Linux
I found it hilarious that Windows 11 moved the start menu to the center, while the latest ChromeOS moved their "start" menu to the lower left.
The entire Windows 11 UX and UI feels like using someone's react bootcamp product, complete and utter ..
Heck, even Windows 10 does this. I don't mind the weather icon in the taskbar, but sometimes it changes to news or market data, which is exactly what I do _not_ want to see when I am playing games on my old Windows machine.
I think what’s really happening is transformation of everything into a micro transaction enabled timeline social media. Soon everything will be $3.99 opportunity for experience, from turning in essay assignments to fixing oxygen generators on actual space ships at this rate.
... and yet no one is going to do anything about it.
People who love Windows are still going to use, no matter how anti-consumer it becomes. The never ending battle Windows users are willing to go through, against their own OS each day, to make the UX less painful is amusing to say the least.
First they put spyware, then bloatware, then adware, then they disabled local account, now they're even trying to make sure your machines can't run Linux properly.
What's next? Subscription to use your own computer?
Windows is not going to change. Windows' users are not going to change. It's only going to get worse so I think even discussing why Windows is introducing all these horrible 'features' is almost pointless because we do this ritual almost every month.
People who love Windows are still going to use, no matter how anti-consumer it becomes. The never ending battle Windows users are willing to go through, against their own OS each day, to make the UX less painful is amusing to say the least.
First they put spyware, then bloatware, then adware, then they disabled local account, now they're even trying to make sure your machines can't run Linux properly.
What's next? Subscription to use your own computer?
Windows is not going to change. Windows' users are not going to change. It's only going to get worse so I think even discussing why Windows is introducing all these horrible 'features' is almost pointless because we do this ritual almost every month.
"People who love Windows are still going to use, no matter how anti-consumer it becomes."
I do not know one single person who loves windows, but plenty of people who use it, including me, because a lot of software is windows only.
I do not know one single person who loves windows, but plenty of people who use it, including me, because a lot of software is windows only.
> I do not know one single person who loves windows
I know I was a fan, until a few years ago and a few other friends followed Windows news too so I can definitely say there are people who love Windows but it's hard to see the greener side because the internet is full of wrong and outdated opinions about Linux sadly.
I know I was a fan, until a few years ago and a few other friends followed Windows news too so I can definitely say there are people who love Windows but it's hard to see the greener side because the internet is full of wrong and outdated opinions about Linux sadly.
Horrible development, just yet another reason why I use Linux on all my privately owned computers.
I switched from W10+wsl on my personal desktop to Linux with my most recent upgrade. There were some issues to debug, but it's just been nice to have the OS play nicely in the background and not compete for my attention with ads, service upsells, and account nonsense.
I've considered going back for certain programs, but thinking about windows now gives me the same sort of mental hesitation that I get from gas stations with those horrible video ads. It's not a dealbreaker per se, but I would go far out of my way to avoid it.
I've considered going back for certain programs, but thinking about windows now gives me the same sort of mental hesitation that I get from gas stations with those horrible video ads. It's not a dealbreaker per se, but I would go far out of my way to avoid it.
I’m with you.
Sure there are compromises I have to make, but being Free, unmonitored, not treated like a resource to be extracted, and feeling like my computer is mine is worth more than the any of the issues I encounter.
Sure there are compromises I have to make, but being Free, unmonitored, not treated like a resource to be extracted, and feeling like my computer is mine is worth more than the any of the issues I encounter.
Yeah and I have no issues paying for it but unless you run Linux there is no other option that doesn't do this unfortunately.
I don't see it as horrible at all. Windows is owned by Microsoft, and as a profit-seeking corporation, it makes lots of sense for them to force users to watch ads while using their product. Why shouldn't they do this, especially when so many people are perfectly happy to keep buying and using Windows OS?
If you don't like having ads forced on you, then use an OS vendor that agrees with you. Thankfully, there's lots of OSes (i.e., Linux distros) that don't have any ads in them, which you can download and use for free, so this isn't really a problem.
In other words: Don't like it? Don't use it.
If you don't like having ads forced on you, then use an OS vendor that agrees with you. Thankfully, there's lots of OSes (i.e., Linux distros) that don't have any ads in them, which you can download and use for free, so this isn't really a problem.
In other words: Don't like it? Don't use it.
I don't understand your point, this is exactly what I am doing. I am not using Windows or MacOS.
> especially when so many people are perfectly happy to keep buying and using Windows OS?
Honestly, this is because a lot of people that would care are unaware that this is happening. It's impossible to stay on top on everything in your life but that doesn't make it ok to treat those people poorly.
The main issue is that for many, there isn't a choice since you can't go to most stores and buy a linux powered machine. You have to have special knowledge in order to even install it.
> especially when so many people are perfectly happy to keep buying and using Windows OS?
Honestly, this is because a lot of people that would care are unaware that this is happening. It's impossible to stay on top on everything in your life but that doesn't make it ok to treat those people poorly.
The main issue is that for many, there isn't a choice since you can't go to most stores and buy a linux powered machine. You have to have special knowledge in order to even install it.
At least ExplorerPatcher still works, it is one of the first things I install on new systems. I wish it was included in Ninite:
https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
It's funny, if you asked Jobs or even Ballmer where they would stand on in-desktop advertising 20 years ago, they probably would have laughed and explained the benefits of paying for a desktop operating system. Flash-forward to today, and both companies are exhuming their UIs to stuff in more-and-more promotional content.
Perhaps it's horribly ironic that the only OSes that don't advertise to you are the ones you can use Freely.
Perhaps it's horribly ironic that the only OSes that don't advertise to you are the ones you can use Freely.
The sheer amount of money involved is corrupting everything.
The customer is no longer right. Software is a zero-margin product (Stallman was right!) and monetizing it effectively means creating artificial friction for the user. All of the fatalist 90s predictions surrounding software licensing are coming true...
The shareholders must be satified. The amount of satisfaction can never reach an upper limit, so everything is on the table in the name of infinite scaling.
This was basically the thesis of my college information science textbook.
I can't imagine a lot of people in 2022 attend a midnight launch for an OS and pay €$300 for it.
Times changed and computers stopped being cool.
Times changed and computers stopped being cool.
Its no longer new, thus no longer cool.
It started with Ubuntu and Amazon iirc.
True, but at least my experience with OpenSUSE, Debian and Arch, Gnome and KDE, is that you can have a pretty decent desktop user experience without any ads.
I dont see any ads is MacOS
Here are the ones I can count (off the top of my head):
- "Try the new Safari!" advertisement spam
- Settings menu advertises iCloud
- Apple Music activates every time you put on your headphones, treating you to a pop-up ad
- App Store searches always return promoted content before actual results
There are supposedly others in the News/Stock apps but I avoid Apple's first-party clients wherever possible.
- "Try the new Safari!" advertisement spam
- Settings menu advertises iCloud
- Apple Music activates every time you put on your headphones, treating you to a pop-up ad
- App Store searches always return promoted content before actual results
There are supposedly others in the News/Stock apps but I avoid Apple's first-party clients wherever possible.
sbuk(4)
There are promoted apps in the app store, ads within news articles in the News and Stocks apps, and Apple also advertises their own services like Apple Music and Apple News and Apple Arcade etc. in some places, particularly on first use of some apps. Nowhere near as egregious as Windows, but still a bit disappointing.
spamuel(3)
I also don't see any ads in my own Windows 11 installation start menu, just pinned apps and the latest files I have accessed [1]. Also, the start menu search functionality works flawlessly for me, always showing me the app or file I want. Hell, it even shows you power-user stuff really intuitively. Previously if you wanted to go into the windows registry editor, you had to know the right incantation, but now, all you have to do is hit the Windows/Meta key and type 'reg' and the registry editor already pups up as the first suggestion and hit enter. Lovely.
A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
[1] https://imgur.com/a/VhkMeRr
A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
[1] https://imgur.com/a/VhkMeRr
> Also, the start menu search functionality works flawlessly for me, always showing me the app or file I want.
It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
> Previously if you wanted to go into the windows registry editor, you had to know the right incantation, but now, all you have to do is hit the Windows/Meta key and type 'reg'
The same search, but on Windows 10 with Open Shell [0]: https://i.imgur.com/YyxIzcO.png
And in my opinion, the start menu is much better looking: https://i.imgur.com/NeXwFlM.png
> it even shows you power-user stuff really intuitively.
Examples?
In my circles I can't think of a single developer and/or power-user that use, or plan on using Windows 11 (except in a virtual machine for quick compatibility-testing). We're all on micropatched W7's or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC - otherwise Linux. W11 has sort of become one of the topics we joke about during lunch.
Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
> A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
ghacks has been covering Windows for many years. It's also not clickbait and MS are turning the operating system into an ad platform, unfortunately.
[0] https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
> Previously if you wanted to go into the windows registry editor, you had to know the right incantation, but now, all you have to do is hit the Windows/Meta key and type 'reg'
The same search, but on Windows 10 with Open Shell [0]: https://i.imgur.com/YyxIzcO.png
And in my opinion, the start menu is much better looking: https://i.imgur.com/NeXwFlM.png
> it even shows you power-user stuff really intuitively.
Examples?
In my circles I can't think of a single developer and/or power-user that use, or plan on using Windows 11 (except in a virtual machine for quick compatibility-testing). We're all on micropatched W7's or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC - otherwise Linux. W11 has sort of become one of the topics we joke about during lunch.
Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
> A lot of these blog posts (like many comments in this thread sadly) are low effort hate/FUD for farming clickbait/karma rather than objective analysis.
ghacks has been covering Windows for many years. It's also not clickbait and MS are turning the operating system into an ad platform, unfortunately.
[0] https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu
>We're all on micropatched W7's or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC - otherwise Linux. W11 has sort of become one of the topics we joke about during lunch.
Look, I wasn't tryin to start a Windows 7 vs 10 vs 11 vs MacOS vs Linux holy war, I was just pointing out that contrary to the article, I have yet to see any ads in the Windows 11 start menu, and the start menu search function works flawlessly on Windows 11 for me, contrary to what this shallow blog article which had no substance backed by tests and evidence.
>It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
As long as it works flawlessly for me in the present day, what difference does the past 10 years make for me? Microsoft devs aren't paid by my wages and I always judge the current version of any tech product, not some relics form the past. Linux also works great now for gaming, so who cares it didn't work 10 years ago?
>Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work, with a life outside of micropatching their OS, do care about things being simple and working out of the box, and that's the target audience for such an OS. Powerusers are a special breed no company targets because they can never be pleased so it's never profitable. They have GNU/Linux for that.
Look, I wasn't tryin to start a Windows 7 vs 10 vs 11 vs MacOS vs Linux holy war, I was just pointing out that contrary to the article, I have yet to see any ads in the Windows 11 start menu, and the start menu search function works flawlessly on Windows 11 for me, contrary to what this shallow blog article which had no substance backed by tests and evidence.
>It took the interns at Microsoft, what, nearly 10 years to fix the whole search function fiasco? Not impressive, and a working search function can not be considered a feature.
As long as it works flawlessly for me in the present day, what difference does the past 10 years make for me? Microsoft devs aren't paid by my wages and I always judge the current version of any tech product, not some relics form the past. Linux also works great now for gaming, so who cares it didn't work 10 years ago?
>Power-users do not care about a cool and stylish UI, new icons or a simple working search function.
Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work, with a life outside of micropatching their OS, do care about things being simple and working out of the box, and that's the target audience for such an OS. Powerusers are a special breed no company targets because they can never be pleased so it's never profitable. They have GNU/Linux for that.
> contrary to what this shallow blog article posted with no substance.
We'll see. If I'm not mistaken the author has written books on Windows even. Why would he lie about something so stupid? ghacks is not a blog it's a tech news site and pretty well known. Perhaps you don't like it because of the sites critical view regarding Windows?
> Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work
Don't bring up average Joe - we're talking about power-users, you were the one who brought up 'power-user stuff' and that's what I quoted you on. I wanted to share the perspective of someone who do not share your praise and excitement for W11. Many seem to not share your experience that is an ad free, lovely OS.
We'll see. If I'm not mistaken the author has written books on Windows even. Why would he lie about something so stupid? ghacks is not a blog it's a tech news site and pretty well known. Perhaps you don't like it because of the sites critical view regarding Windows?
> Average Joe users who user their PC for entertainment and work
Don't bring up average Joe - we're talking about power-users, you were the one who brought up 'power-user stuff' and that's what I quoted you on. I wanted to share the perspective of someone who do not share your praise and excitement for W11. Many seem to not share your experience that is an ad free, lovely OS.
>Many seem to not share your experience that is an ad free, lovely OS.
Because many just love to shit on it without having used it lately, because hating everything Microsoft is a timeless trend. Just like hating Nickelback and Internet Explorer. You must hate them because the internet said so, otherwise you get downvoted, to teach you to fall in line with the official party line.
People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there. If Microsoft would cure cancer tomorrow, people would still hate them just because.
Therefore the opinion of various heavily biased internet swarm minds is largely irelevant and should be taken with a glorious boulder of salt.
Don't get me wrong, I hate on Microsoft enough when they deserve it, but, as a long time Windows and Linux user, I can't really fault W11 as an OS as it's the best windows so far by a long shot IMHO.
I also hated W11 when I installed it a year ago, but since then all updates brough only improvements. I never though I'd say this but it's now a much better alternative to windows 10 for both coding and entertainment, it has put me off from switching to Linux fully, that, and Fedora and OpenSUSE deciding to remove VA-API hardware acceleration for AMD users.
Because many just love to shit on it without having used it lately, because hating everything Microsoft is a timeless trend. Just like hating Nickelback and Internet Explorer. You must hate them because the internet said so, otherwise you get downvoted, to teach you to fall in line with the official party line.
People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there. If Microsoft would cure cancer tomorrow, people would still hate them just because.
Therefore the opinion of various heavily biased internet swarm minds is largely irelevant and should be taken with a glorious boulder of salt.
Don't get me wrong, I hate on Microsoft enough when they deserve it, but, as a long time Windows and Linux user, I can't really fault W11 as an OS as it's the best windows so far by a long shot IMHO.
I also hated W11 when I installed it a year ago, but since then all updates brough only improvements. I never though I'd say this but it's now a much better alternative to windows 10 for both coding and entertainment, it has put me off from switching to Linux fully, that, and Fedora and OpenSUSE deciding to remove VA-API hardware acceleration for AMD users.
I get the logic regarding hating on a product because it's trendy, however, I've followed MS Windows for a long time and more importantly listened to people around me, skilled teams of Windows software developers; with many different personalities and backgrounds; GUI designers, system driver devs, kernel devs, windows internals experts, and what do we all seem to have in common? We do not like Windows 11. Many of us used to praise Windows back in the day (WIN2K-XP-7 era).
To be frank with you, MS deserves all the criticism and I truly believe the 'biased internet swarm minds' to be correct this one time. Agree to disagree.
> People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there.
No Firefox is but it depends on the hardware. I'd encourage anyone to do their own benchmark - don't let anyone fool you with these paid benchmark guru sites.
To be frank with you, MS deserves all the criticism and I truly believe the 'biased internet swarm minds' to be correct this one time. Agree to disagree.
> People would also hate Edge despite benchmarks showing its latest iterations, even before the transition to chromium, as being one of the fastest and most performat browsers out there.
No Firefox is but it depends on the hardware. I'd encourage anyone to do their own benchmark - don't let anyone fool you with these paid benchmark guru sites.
You mean the Win11 START menu doesn't lag for multiple seconds when you are typing a partial name of a program?
If so, I am very jealous -- I have a new, loaded machine with 32gb of ram and I still wonder what on earth is happening during this lag.
If so, I am very jealous -- I have a new, loaded machine with 32gb of ram and I still wonder what on earth is happening during this lag.
Yes you do. It's in the form of "nudges" toward more Apple products - mostly iCloud ecosystem products.
Every time I update iOS I have to go through a dozen modals to turn down apple's services: icloud, apple music, apple wallet, etc. To the point that I defer updates as long as I can.
Apple introduced those things years ago, Microsoft is only following their footsteps.
Apple introduced those things years ago, Microsoft is only following their footsteps.
iOS has been adding more and more ads slowly - app store, news, etc.
MacOS is a delivery channel for iCloud services.
So you didn't see any nag for iCloud in the System Preferences/System Settings app?
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You can't buy a copy of MacOS either - not anymore.
I believe the original mindset was that the OS only runs on Apple hardware, the purchase of the hardware paid for the OS.
Back in OS X Mountain Lion (2012) OSX was a separate product. I had a Macbook but bought the installation disk (OS) from a online store, because it wasn't bundled. Then suddenly they made it 'available to download from the App Store'..
Nice idea but in order for that to work you need to cut people off at some point like Windows used to. Otherwise you'll be giving out software updates gratis in perpetuity.
They do cut people off. macOS 13 doesn't run on any hardware from before 2017.
As predicted, the thing that finally turns me to using a Linux Desktop is not that it has become better but that Windows has become so much worse.
I'm sticking with 10, but it will be my last Windows unless something drastically changes at Microsoft before VR on Linux stops being such a shit show.
I'm sticking with 10, but it will be my last Windows unless something drastically changes at Microsoft before VR on Linux stops being such a shit show.
Panos Panay took over Windows Experience in early 2020, and I think these are the results of that effort. While it was clear that Windows needed a coherent vision and direction from a leader, this certainly isn't what I had hoped for.
Ive been running windows 7 all this time on an i7 from 2011. Haven't had any issues running the software I need. Now that Chrome and likely Firefox are abandoning 7 in 2023 I'm going to move that machine to Linux. It's going to suck a bit as I use a few MS only CAD and industrial programs but that is what VM's are for. MS can take a long walk on a short pier. I don't tolerate abuse.
I had been running 7 for a while, then Linux with a pass-through VM with 7 for gaming. Just made the switch to Linux only, so far only one issue with a game, not sure if it is the game or Linux as I was having trouble with it on my pass-through setup as well.
This is why I declined the update to Windows 11. Microsoft was already trying to insert an advertisement system in Windows 10 (featured applications like Candy Crush, the weather tab, all of the information they say to collect when you install it, etc.). It was obvious that 11 would point to that direction as well, it's a common thing in the brand OSes already.
Wait until they turn your physical space into an ad-delivery system.
Introducing HoloLens v10 ! it fits in contact lenses ! wear it everywhere !
Introducing HoloLens v10 ! it fits in contact lenses ! wear it everywhere !
We just went through an election in the US, and there were ads all over my physical place. And billboards. And now LED billboards. And LED billboard vehicles and boats.
My state banned billboards. You should find a way to get such a thing on your local ballot. There's zero reason to have distracting advertisements on the side of a road where you are supposed to go 70+ mph.
Fo me the worst (possibly only significant) issue about ads is they are stealing my attention over what I'm actually trying to do. Flashing, taking up screen space, disturbing, requiring to find a well-hidden "fuck off" button.
Inclusion of some links bothers me much less. Though I agree it's poor overall.
Inclusion of some links bothers me much less. Though I agree it's poor overall.
I absolutely cannot fathom there is a head of/president/vp/whatever of design/ux at Microsoft who greenlighted this.
But I was thinking the same thing when Apple was playing around with the idea of ads on iOS. Aaaand here we are.
Well, time to take another look to check desktop Linux in 2022+ is already viable...
But I was thinking the same thing when Apple was playing around with the idea of ads on iOS. Aaaand here we are.
Well, time to take another look to check desktop Linux in 2022+ is already viable...
Windows customers may switch to a third-party Start Menu instead.
The $4.99 applications Start11 and StartAllBack restore classic versions of the Start Menu on Windows 11.
The $4.99 applications Start11 and StartAllBack restore classic versions of the Start Menu on Windows 11.
Ah, pay for your OS so that you can pay third parties to make it usable.
To be fair, you also have to do this for macOS as well; it still doesn't have the window-snapping feature that Windows has had since 2006.
This comment made me smile (in a smug long time Linux user way, of course).
PowerToys (from MS) has alt-space, as well as a slew of new features, for free. There are no ads, for now...
my point is, according to the article,if you dont want the ads , MS will sell/allow you an adless start menu version for 5 bucks
And their point was that there are adless start menus for free also, which is an important addition to what the article is stating.
Wait, since when are third party paid applications "Microsoft"?
And yet I watch TV mostly ad free (though not for free). Strange how things go around.
Not on my computers.
Avid Windows user here (yes, I know, and you know where the downvote button is: better: just email your YC contacts to ban me once and for all...), and I yet have to see a single truly noticeable ad across any of my Windows installs.
'Promoted' start menu apps on a fresh install: sure. That's like Amazon Search on Ubuntu.
Promotional text on the lock screen? Sure, once in a while. But it takes a LOT of effort to actually click on that.
Desperate 'make this browser your default' prompts from Edge? Sure, every now and then, but since Firefox and Chrome do it as well, that's pretty much a muscle memory 'No' from me.
Now, on my fully paid-for iPhone 13, I got an urgent notification from the Apple Store today. It made my phone buzz and my screen light up, while I was otherwise productively engaged. Apparently, there is a sale on. Apparently, I can't turn these notifications off.
So, me, a lifelong Windows user, got distracted today by an ad. From Apple. Make of that what you will...
'Promoted' start menu apps on a fresh install: sure. That's like Amazon Search on Ubuntu.
Promotional text on the lock screen? Sure, once in a while. But it takes a LOT of effort to actually click on that.
Desperate 'make this browser your default' prompts from Edge? Sure, every now and then, but since Firefox and Chrome do it as well, that's pretty much a muscle memory 'No' from me.
Now, on my fully paid-for iPhone 13, I got an urgent notification from the Apple Store today. It made my phone buzz and my screen light up, while I was otherwise productively engaged. Apparently, there is a sale on. Apparently, I can't turn these notifications off.
So, me, a lifelong Windows user, got distracted today by an ad. From Apple. Make of that what you will...
Amazon search on Ubuntu was widely criticised also and has since been removed. Between that and Snaps, Ubuntu has lost the position as "recommended Linux distro for newbies" to the likes of PopOS and Manjaro, so it arguably wasn't consequence free either.
Chrome and Firefox don't get the same ability to make sales pitches if you search for Edge, choose to download Edge, try to install Edge, or update your OS.
Can't speak for the Apple store ad, I haven't seen it but I like in a market which is often thankfully overlooked by invasive marketing pushes like this, and I'm not even sure if what used to be the one Apple store in the country is still open.
Chrome and Firefox don't get the same ability to make sales pitches if you search for Edge, choose to download Edge, try to install Edge, or update your OS.
Can't speak for the Apple store ad, I haven't seen it but I like in a market which is often thankfully overlooked by invasive marketing pushes like this, and I'm not even sure if what used to be the one Apple store in the country is still open.
> Chrome and Firefox don't get the same ability to make sales pitches if you search for Edge
This is just plain false. If I open Edge and search Google for just about anything, there will be a prominent ad prompting me to switch to Chrome.
Every. Time. I'm not sure where Firefox puts the focus for their ads (MDN? Fortunately, I don't need to visit that often or ever), but...
This is just plain false. If I open Edge and search Google for just about anything, there will be a prominent ad prompting me to switch to Chrome.
Every. Time. I'm not sure where Firefox puts the focus for their ads (MDN? Fortunately, I don't need to visit that often or ever), but...
> Now, on my fully paid-for iPhone 13, I got an urgent notification from the Apple Store today. It made my phone buzz and my screen light up, while I was otherwise productively engaged. Apparently, there is a sale on. Apparently, I can't turn these notifications off.
An app with the word "store" in its name giving you a notification for a sale is hardly the same as ads embedded in your Start menu or lock screen.
An app with the word "store" in its name giving you a notification for a sale is hardly the same as ads embedded in your Start menu or lock screen.
There was a notification on my lock screen. It buzzed my phone. It lit up my phone's screen. That's not intrusive, i.e. worse than some additional text on an UI surface that I already interact with?
It's not intrusive because, contrary to what you think, you can very easily disable notifications for that app, just as you disable notifications for any other app in iOS. I have, and therefore I didn't get this notification that you mentioned, but if I open the app I can see a banner at the top of the app for the sale. Therefore I can assume that turning off the notification is indeed possible.
And, I mean, it's an Apple Store app. The app is optional, you can uninstall it if you want; if you have it on your phone, it's not ridiculous to think that you'd want to be alerted to a sale. Ditto for Amazon, or Best Buy, or any other "store" app. It's for shopping, that is the soul purpose of the app. I'd even go so far as to argue that a shopping app giving you notifications for a sale is a good thing (because, if I presumably chose to install that app for the purpose of shopping there, why wouldn't I want to be aware of the fact that the products I presumably want to buy are cheaper?). IMO these aren't even really "ads," they're just notifications from an app doing exactly what it's designed to do. While ads can be delivered via a notification system, notifications and ads are not the same thing.
However, multiple, persistent ads embedded into various places around the OS, with no clear way to remove them -- not to mention pre-installed third-party apps acting as their own advertisement (such as Candy Crush) -- are categorically different on a completely different level, but if you can't see that or don't care then more power to you I guess.
And, I mean, it's an Apple Store app. The app is optional, you can uninstall it if you want; if you have it on your phone, it's not ridiculous to think that you'd want to be alerted to a sale. Ditto for Amazon, or Best Buy, or any other "store" app. It's for shopping, that is the soul purpose of the app. I'd even go so far as to argue that a shopping app giving you notifications for a sale is a good thing (because, if I presumably chose to install that app for the purpose of shopping there, why wouldn't I want to be aware of the fact that the products I presumably want to buy are cheaper?). IMO these aren't even really "ads," they're just notifications from an app doing exactly what it's designed to do. While ads can be delivered via a notification system, notifications and ads are not the same thing.
However, multiple, persistent ads embedded into various places around the OS, with no clear way to remove them -- not to mention pre-installed third-party apps acting as their own advertisement (such as Candy Crush) -- are categorically different on a completely different level, but if you can't see that or don't care then more power to you I guess.
> Promotional text on the lock screen? Sure, once in a while. But it takes a LOT of effort to actually click on that.
Ads don't need to be clickable. Most ads aren't clickable.
Ads don't need to be clickable. Most ads aren't clickable.
How many people do you think are on HN who earn their paycheck because of advertising?
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If these are "ads" then I had "ads" in my iOS settings app and throughout the interface.
I'm not saying this is wrong, I just don't understand why Microsoft is being singled out. I get it, bashing MS gets clicks from old geeks like me but come on, these aren't "banner ads" or MS selling the start menu to the highest bidder ... it's them pushing their own services that extend Windows ... just like iCloud.
I'm not saying this is wrong, I just don't understand why Microsoft is being singled out. I get it, bashing MS gets clicks from old geeks like me but come on, these aren't "banner ads" or MS selling the start menu to the highest bidder ... it's them pushing their own services that extend Windows ... just like iCloud.
The article mentions that Microsoft is also promoting third-party "common websites", such as Etsy and Twitter. This seems a bit problematic -- if they're paid-for placements then they are unambiguously ads, but if they're not paid-for placements then one has to wonder how much damage they'd do to Etsy or Twitter competitors.
(They also look pretty distracting if you're after your recently-used files and already know about these websites!)
(They also look pretty distracting if you're after your recently-used files and already know about these websites!)
I agree third-party promotion isn't great, but what they're describing is what my browser already does (selling start page placement).
"other people are already putting ads on the side of their buildings, why shouldn't they be able to throw them up on my house too?".
said no one, ever.
said no one, ever.
You should relay this opinion to Apple, Mozilla and all of the other companies selling ad-spots in their software.
this is bad too
I have autodesk inventor installed on my windows machine. When i click the start menu and type "inventor," not only does it fail to give me a button to launch the program, but it instead shows me ads for things like candy crush. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't consider that an extension of the operating system's capabilities.
It's especially galling because this is already a solved problem, and there is no technical issue causing it. It's microsoft intentionally making their user experience worse because they are betting it will make them money. The win95 start menu was better for launching programs. The Spotlight search tool as it existed in osX in 2007 was vastly superior for search.
It's especially galling because this is already a solved problem, and there is no technical issue causing it. It's microsoft intentionally making their user experience worse because they are betting it will make them money. The win95 start menu was better for launching programs. The Spotlight search tool as it existed in osX in 2007 was vastly superior for search.
I'm not seeing this behavior on multiple Windows 11 machines.
When I type "inventor" I see files, web, document and then app results.
After my 3rd or 4th test, I saw Bing web results in the right hand panel which did include ads (ironically for the exact software you mentioned).
Are these the ads to which you are referring?
When I type "inventor" I see files, web, document and then app results.
After my 3rd or 4th test, I saw Bing web results in the right hand panel which did include ads (ironically for the exact software you mentioned).
Are these the ads to which you are referring?
FYI, you can right click on the candy crush ad, say hide, and never see it again, period. You can do this with most "ads" on windows 10.
My start menu looks like it did in the 7 days, because I turned off the entire side panel that had all the "tiles". Even the panel that comes up when I click in the "search" bar (which is not the start menu!) is devoid of basically any tiles, because they are all hidden.
I literally never saw the candy crush tile, because I installed windows myself from a microsoft CD, turned off every option on the "personalization" or whatever page when you do a fresh install, and have no OEM bloatware as well.
My start menu looks like it did in the 7 days, because I turned off the entire side panel that had all the "tiles". Even the panel that comes up when I click in the "search" bar (which is not the start menu!) is devoid of basically any tiles, because they are all hidden.
I literally never saw the candy crush tile, because I installed windows myself from a microsoft CD, turned off every option on the "personalization" or whatever page when you do a fresh install, and have no OEM bloatware as well.
>If these are "ads" then I had "ads" in my iOS settings app and throughout the interface.
Correct! Both of these are bad!
Correct! Both of these are bad!
I agree! Let's just not give Apple or Google a free pass.
Correct. iOS is one of the worst offenders in the category of operating systems pushing paid services on you.
Unfortunately, a lot of people here and elsewhere get really upset when you make the simple observation that iOS is adware.
Linux is the only modern OS that doesn't have ads. (Though Ubuntu is trying to change that...)
Unfortunately, a lot of people here and elsewhere get really upset when you make the simple observation that iOS is adware.
Linux is the only modern OS that doesn't have ads. (Though Ubuntu is trying to change that...)
Ubuntu tried that years ago with Ubuntu One and amazon integration in Unity and it was a flop.
They're at it again, sadly: https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/10/ubuntu-pro-terminal-ad
They are not "singled out" it's just article about new misfeature added?
I believe it's the second article popular on HN about this exact issue in less than 1-2 weeks? It seems if you're a blogger, bashing MS is a winning formula. Having lived through the "MS is evil" years I'm sensitive to when others are given a pass for similar, or worse behavior.
As opposed to what, not trying to hold large companies to task for their behavior?
iOS isn't even mentioned in the article. Why are you complaining about MS getting "singled out". ?
> iOS isn't even mentioned in the article.
This is my point - Apple and Google are given passes while everyone dunks on the old, increasingly irrelevant, dead horse.
This is my point - Apple and Google are given passes while everyone dunks on the old, increasingly irrelevant, dead horse.
Such a false narrative. Literally every thread about Apple, Google, or Microsoft has people bashing Apple, Google, and Microsoft, even when the topic has absolutely nothing to do with the companies not named in the headline.