Brazil seizes iPhones from stores due to free charger requirement(9to5mac.com)
9to5mac.com
Brazil seizes iPhones from stores due to free charger requirement
https://9to5mac.com/2022/11/24/brazil-seizes-iphones-retail-stores-charger-requirement/
138 comments
Apple does not have a proprietary charger. It has a proprietary cable, which comes with the device. That cable plugs into a standard USB charger or port, even one’s that came with android phones.
Apple says:
"When using electronic accessories with your iPhone, ensure that they are either genuine Apple products or that they have been certified as Made for iPhone under the MFi program. Certified items come with the "Made for iPhone" logo on them and/or on their packaging.
(...)
Using uncertified or counterfeit accessories may damage your iPhone and/or adversely affect operation. Apple's warranty does not cover damage caused by use with a third party product that does not meet Apple's specifications."
So you have to buy Apple charger to be able to use iPhone "correctly" and to preserve warrant.
"When using electronic accessories with your iPhone, ensure that they are either genuine Apple products or that they have been certified as Made for iPhone under the MFi program. Certified items come with the "Made for iPhone" logo on them and/or on their packaging.
(...)
Using uncertified or counterfeit accessories may damage your iPhone and/or adversely affect operation. Apple's warranty does not cover damage caused by use with a third party product that does not meet Apple's specifications."
So you have to buy Apple charger to be able to use iPhone "correctly" and to preserve warrant.
No, your assertion is not a logical deduction from the text you quoted.
The first paragraph does not list any consequenses for not using Apple accessories.
The second paragraph says that non-Apple accessories *MAY* damage the phone, and that specific damage is not covered under warranty.
(Just be aware that in the U.S., the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires Apple to *prove* that you caused specific damage before they can deny the warranty coverage for that specific issue.)
Edit: If the assertion is logically true from the two paragraphs that were quoted, I would love to hear why, because it simply isn't possible. Downvotes do not automatically mean someone is wrong. Most people are not aware of consumer protections they have, believe companies when they lie, have poor reading comprehension skills, and are emotionally-invested to believe in what they believe is the truth (there has to be a better way to say that last item, any ideas?).
Edit 2: added parenthesis around text based on feedback from a reply.
The first paragraph does not list any consequenses for not using Apple accessories.
The second paragraph says that non-Apple accessories *MAY* damage the phone, and that specific damage is not covered under warranty.
(Just be aware that in the U.S., the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires Apple to *prove* that you caused specific damage before they can deny the warranty coverage for that specific issue.)
Edit: If the assertion is logically true from the two paragraphs that were quoted, I would love to hear why, because it simply isn't possible. Downvotes do not automatically mean someone is wrong. Most people are not aware of consumer protections they have, believe companies when they lie, have poor reading comprehension skills, and are emotionally-invested to believe in what they believe is the truth (there has to be a better way to say that last item, any ideas?).
Edit 2: added parenthesis around text based on feedback from a reply.
> The second paragraph says that non-Apple accessories MAY damage the phone, and that specific damage is not covered under warranty.
I would hazard a guess that great majority of people in Brazil do not have either technical or legal knowledge to understand this. Or ability to read specifications and documentation with understanding.
They see officially and seriously sounding warning from Apple and they feel the have to go buy a charger and a cable or loose warranty.
> Just be aware that in the U.S., the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires Apple (...)
Except we are talking Brazil, not US.
I would hazard a guess that great majority of people in Brazil do not have either technical or legal knowledge to understand this. Or ability to read specifications and documentation with understanding.
They see officially and seriously sounding warning from Apple and they feel the have to go buy a charger and a cable or loose warranty.
> Just be aware that in the U.S., the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requires Apple (...)
Except we are talking Brazil, not US.
> we are talking Brazil, not US
I'm aware, that's why I stated "in the U.S.". I added parenthesis to help avoid further confusion.
> great majority of people in Brazil do not have either technical or legal knowledge to understand this
Are you a Brazilian speaking for a culture you are a part of?
I'm aware, that's why I stated "in the U.S.". I added parenthesis to help avoid further confusion.
> great majority of people in Brazil do not have either technical or legal knowledge to understand this
Are you a Brazilian speaking for a culture you are a part of?
No, that's simply not true. A charger is no more an accessory than an electrical outlet is.
Obviously you can use any charger you want, and your warranty will be just fine.
Obviously you can use any charger you want, and your warranty will be just fine.
Are you saying that as a lawyer experienced in this area of law and location... or like my dad dispenses legal advice, because "it's obviously true (to him)"?
The OP quoted written Apple policy. If you want to persuasively negate it, it should have more than "Nope!" in response.
The OP quoted written Apple policy. If you want to persuasively negate it, it should have more than "Nope!" in response.
Let's put it this way: in reality, how is Apple ever going to know what charger you used? Obviously it can't.
So in practice, which is all that matters, it can never void your warranty.
And let's keep in mind, the entire purpose of a standard USB-C port is that you can use any charger. Otherwise Apple would use a proprietary connector on its charger, which it has never done.
So let's just stay in the realm of common sense here, OK? :) No need to be demanding whether someone is a lawyer, sheesh.
So in practice, which is all that matters, it can never void your warranty.
And let's keep in mind, the entire purpose of a standard USB-C port is that you can use any charger. Otherwise Apple would use a proprietary connector on its charger, which it has never done.
So let's just stay in the realm of common sense here, OK? :) No need to be demanding whether someone is a lawyer, sheesh.
> And let's keep in mind, the entire purpose of a standard USB-C port is that you can use any charger.
What the stated purpose is is irrelevant. The reality is that not all usb devices or even cables are the same. If you don't buy Apple charger and cable you might be sorrily disappointed your phone charges at glacial speeds with the one that was laying around your house and worked perfectly for another device.
And if you don't know the many charging standards you might conclude the only way to resolve the issue is to actually buy Apple cable and charger.
My wife can't even name various USB connectors when she asks me if I have so and so cable. Forget about charging or transmission standards, this is something she cannot grasp. For her if the connectors fit they should be working properly. I also am of the same opinion but I also know that it is not how it works in reality.
What the stated purpose is is irrelevant. The reality is that not all usb devices or even cables are the same. If you don't buy Apple charger and cable you might be sorrily disappointed your phone charges at glacial speeds with the one that was laying around your house and worked perfectly for another device.
And if you don't know the many charging standards you might conclude the only way to resolve the issue is to actually buy Apple cable and charger.
My wife can't even name various USB connectors when she asks me if I have so and so cable. Forget about charging or transmission standards, this is something she cannot grasp. For her if the connectors fit they should be working properly. I also am of the same opinion but I also know that it is not how it works in reality.
> And let's keep in mind, the entire purpose of a standard USB-C port is that you can use any charger.
That does not seem to be true. The standard is a lot more complicated than it used to be, but even back with micro amount of amps a charger can push varied wildly, I have seem chargers that could not even push more than what a device uses while on.
But like I said, it is even more complicated now. The rPI4 at launch with the brand new usbc power supply system only worked with specific chargers not because of amp limits but because the usbc spec.
Also this is ignoring the elephant in the room of the serious threat of cheap poorly made chargers that fry devices. Apple will not replace your device, or your house, if you buy some 10c charger from alibaba that catches fire the second you plug it in.
That does not seem to be true. The standard is a lot more complicated than it used to be, but even back with micro amount of amps a charger can push varied wildly, I have seem chargers that could not even push more than what a device uses while on.
But like I said, it is even more complicated now. The rPI4 at launch with the brand new usbc power supply system only worked with specific chargers not because of amp limits but because the usbc spec.
Also this is ignoring the elephant in the room of the serious threat of cheap poorly made chargers that fry devices. Apple will not replace your device, or your house, if you buy some 10c charger from alibaba that catches fire the second you plug it in.
> how is Apple ever going to know what charger you used?
I don't know if they do it, but it's very easy to have a communication channel between the device and the charger. For instance, my Dell laptop knows whether it's being used with a 65W charger or with a 90W charger, even though the plug and the voltage is the same in both cases.
I don't know if they do it, but it's very easy to have a communication channel between the device and the charger. For instance, my Dell laptop knows whether it's being used with a 65W charger or with a 90W charger, even though the plug and the voltage is the same in both cases.
They dont need to know. Famously apple used to deny warranty claims if their moisture sensor tripped. All they will do if see if the internal PSU is melted and say you used a offbrand charger, and that is your fault.
Fair enough; I should have said "as someone with legal expertise in this area", not "as a lawyer".
But I DO believe it's important to distinguish when one is dispensing legal experience (even if not advice), vs "common sense". Different people will have different preferences and fair enough, but for what little it may be worth, I tend to come to HN to read about (ridiculously frequent and that's what makes this place wonderful!:) people's experience in obscure areas ("I read that article and I worked on Apollo software, here's how it works!" "Yeah, my experience in 2km hole drilling is different...", "CRISPR is great but here's the extremely obscure yet fascinating cutting edge biotechnology area I'm working on" etc), less so about common sense exchange :-)
But I DO believe it's important to distinguish when one is dispensing legal experience (even if not advice), vs "common sense". Different people will have different preferences and fair enough, but for what little it may be worth, I tend to come to HN to read about (ridiculously frequent and that's what makes this place wonderful!:) people's experience in obscure areas ("I read that article and I worked on Apollo software, here's how it works!" "Yeah, my experience in 2km hole drilling is different...", "CRISPR is great but here's the extremely obscure yet fascinating cutting edge biotechnology area I'm working on" etc), less so about common sense exchange :-)
Are you claiming that the warranty doesn't have this condition?
Because yes, there is an entire level of bullshit on the requirement (the Brazilian Law also forbids that kind of bullshit), but if Apple claims that the charger is a requirement, how can they come and claim it's optional for the intent of not giving you one?
Because yes, there is an entire level of bullshit on the requirement (the Brazilian Law also forbids that kind of bullshit), but if Apple claims that the charger is a requirement, how can they come and claim it's optional for the intent of not giving you one?
I just bought an iPhone yesterday, and the charger no longer comes with a standard USB A port. It comes with a lightning-to-usbC cable, which it suggests I plug into my MacBook to charge. I do not have a USB-C outlet, so I either need to get a USB A to USB C adapter or a USB-C charger port if I want to plug my phone into the wall.
Yes, and this sounds completely compatible with the GP comment. USB C (PD) charging is the non-proprietary standard that virtually every modern smartphone uses.
> to make things worse, Apple has a proprietary charger
This is incorrect. Lightning is only used on the phone's end of the cable. The other end, which connects to the actual charger, is USB-C. This cable is included with the phone.
What the judges are saying is that they not only need to include the cable, but also the actual charger, which in this case is in fact USB-C.
This is incorrect. Lightning is only used on the phone's end of the cable. The other end, which connects to the actual charger, is USB-C. This cable is included with the phone.
What the judges are saying is that they not only need to include the cable, but also the actual charger, which in this case is in fact USB-C.
Apple requires that you use Apple-made or Apple-certified charger and reserves the right to void warranty if you do not.
They seem to be ok with any USB PD capable charger.
> Fast charging works when you use an Apple USB-C to Lightning cable and one of these adapters:
> Apple 18W, 20W,2 29W, 30W, 35W, 61W, 67W, 87W, or 96W, or 140W USB-C Power Adapter
> A comparable third-party USB-C power adapter that supports USB Power Delivery (USB-PD)
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208137
> Fast charging works when you use an Apple USB-C to Lightning cable and one of these adapters:
> Apple 18W, 20W,2 29W, 30W, 35W, 61W, 67W, 87W, or 96W, or 140W USB-C Power Adapter
> A comparable third-party USB-C power adapter that supports USB Power Delivery (USB-PD)
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208137
Most people do not understand ANYTHING about charging standards. They only know that some chargers in they possession seem to be charging some of the devices quickly and some not.
Do you have a source for that?
I've found some references to potentially voiding the warranty by using a non-MFI cable. But again, the cable is included with the phone.
I've found some references to potentially voiding the warranty by using a non-MFI cable. But again, the cable is included with the phone.
item c of "what is not covered by this warranty": https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/ios-warranty-d...
Note that the same clause is present in the brazillian warranty.
Note that the same clause is present in the brazillian warranty.
> (c) to damage caused by use with a third party component or product that does not meet the Apple Product’s specifications (Apple Product specifications are available at www.apple.com under the technical specifications for each product and also available in stores)
This one? It doesn't say the charger needs to be certified, only that it needs to meet specifications, which can be found in the tech specs for each product.
The iPhone 14's specs [0] don't seem to mention any requirement for certifications.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but so far I haven't found anything to support your claim. Could you please point me to where I can find the need for a certification?
[0] https://www.apple.com/iphone-14/specs/
This one? It doesn't say the charger needs to be certified, only that it needs to meet specifications, which can be found in the tech specs for each product.
The iPhone 14's specs [0] don't seem to mention any requirement for certifications.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but so far I haven't found anything to support your claim. Could you please point me to where I can find the need for a certification?
[0] https://www.apple.com/iphone-14/specs/
I didn't notice that detail, fair enough, however where are the charger specs on the linked page? can't find anything to compare. And the only spec for the charger I could find is wattage https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MHJA3AM/A/20w-usb-c-power....
I couldn't find any either. I assume this means any USB-C compatible charger is supported.
A sibling comment posted a link to a page talking about PD but that seems to be only a requirement for fast charging, not a hard requirement.
A sibling comment posted a link to a page talking about PD but that seems to be only a requirement for fast charging, not a hard requirement.
I would add different countries set their protection laws largely independently, meaning the specific protections will be different.
US/EU are large enough so that our protection laws kinda become a possible standard for other countries and so we kinda got used to it actually being a standard.
Brazil has every right to set their own protection laws and in this case it absolutely does not seem to me it is in any way unreasonable.
At least not more unreasonable than US letting customers try stuff out and send it back for free which obviously is abused by large part of population and causes situations where people receive products that look suspiciously like they have already been opened and possibly even used by somebody previously.
US/EU are large enough so that our protection laws kinda become a possible standard for other countries and so we kinda got used to it actually being a standard.
Brazil has every right to set their own protection laws and in this case it absolutely does not seem to me it is in any way unreasonable.
At least not more unreasonable than US letting customers try stuff out and send it back for free which obviously is abused by large part of population and causes situations where people receive products that look suspiciously like they have already been opened and possibly even used by somebody previously.
Actually, this is copied almost verbatim from some EU countries. It's just that the EU market is different enough that the same law has different effects.
So does this apply to AirPods as well? Because those aren't sold with a charger either, never have been.
My Apple Watch didn't either -- it comes with a charging puck that attached to a cable, but it doesn't come with a charger. Neither did my Magic Trackpad. Or Magic Keyboard.
Not including a charger is becoming more and more standard. I'm curious if Brazil is applying this law equally to all products that charge over USB, or if it's just selectively targeting flagship devices like iPhones?
My Apple Watch didn't either -- it comes with a charging puck that attached to a cable, but it doesn't come with a charger. Neither did my Magic Trackpad. Or Magic Keyboard.
Not including a charger is becoming more and more standard. I'm curious if Brazil is applying this law equally to all products that charge over USB, or if it's just selectively targeting flagship devices like iPhones?
First people need to sue Apple for this. I guess no one is suing Apple over airpods.
Worth to remind that before going to court, there's consumer protection 'agency', known as PROCON, to resolve consumer issues before going to court.
This happened with Samsung. Samsung resolve the issue before going to court. They give a free charger if you ask for.
Worth to remind that before going to court, there's consumer protection 'agency', known as PROCON, to resolve consumer issues before going to court.
This happened with Samsung. Samsung resolve the issue before going to court. They give a free charger if you ask for.
The law applies to every product. There is a decision to make over the charging medium details, but the one against iPhones apply to anything that charges over USB-C.
For other USB substandards, other rules may apply. The rules for USB-C also may change as the market matures.
For other USB substandards, other rules may apply. The rules for USB-C also may change as the market matures.
It applies. but I'm not sure if anyone is suing Apple over those or just the iPhones. Samsung was also fined earlier this year for the same reason.
But keep in mind that this is not "Brazil" targeting, someone needs to sue Apple in the court for this (the judge ruling and fine) to be applied. In this case it was a consumer association, that is getting some 10MM BRL (2MM USD) out of this (so this is probably the association interest, not consumer fairness), but it is in Apple best interest to respect the law and avoid professional litigators to go after them.
But keep in mind that this is not "Brazil" targeting, someone needs to sue Apple in the court for this (the judge ruling and fine) to be applied. In this case it was a consumer association, that is getting some 10MM BRL (2MM USD) out of this (so this is probably the association interest, not consumer fairness), but it is in Apple best interest to respect the law and avoid professional litigators to go after them.
Just wait 'till they discover that Apple Watches need an iPhone to work...
“Venda Casasa” (Portuguese) https://pt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venda_casada
So you can’t sell a physical console game without the console? This seems to follow similar logic.
The judge ruling is kind of a stretch of that law. Because it was first conceived to avoid forcing consumers to buy 2 items together (if you don't buy X I can't sell you Y), or putting quantity limitations (you can only buy 4 or more of X, otherwise I won't sell to you).
Of course you can do promo combos (3 for the price of 2) but that shouldn't be the only option, the consumer needs to be able to buy the standalone product.
Also where does it end. Do they also need to provide you the wall outlet? And the wires to wire that outlet to your electrical panel?
It does seem that if it works with a standard USB or USB-C charger they should be fine not to include it to provide the consumer choice of what charger they want to use, be it Apple, third-party or an existing one that they had lying around.
It does seem that if it works with a standard USB or USB-C charger they should be fine not to include it to provide the consumer choice of what charger they want to use, be it Apple, third-party or an existing one that they had lying around.
Not really. A game is content for your console, not a feature.
A better analogy would be selling a pre-assembled PC without an operating system. And this is illegal in Brazil, although this law isn't strictly enforced.
A better analogy would be selling a pre-assembled PC without an operating system. And this is illegal in Brazil, although this law isn't strictly enforced.
Correction:
Not because of free charger, but due to not using a standard charger (USB C) while not including their own non-standard charger.
Not because of free charger, but due to not using a standard charger (USB C) while not including their own non-standard charger.
Do you have a source for that? All the Brazilian articles that I could find, even the official government publication[1], only mention carregador ("charger", the thing that plugs into the wall), and "missing components necessary to use the product". There's no mention of USB-C or cable incompatibility anywhere.
As to why only Apple (and not, say, most wireless earbuds), I'd guess that it's because of their visibility and obscene prices in Brasil. Due to its weak currency and self-imposed import taxes, Brazilians pay over 6 months of minimum wage for the lowest spec iPhone 14.
[1] https://in.gov.br/web/dou/-/despacho-n-2.968/2022-438272613
As to why only Apple (and not, say, most wireless earbuds), I'd guess that it's because of their visibility and obscene prices in Brasil. Due to its weak currency and self-imposed import taxes, Brazilians pay over 6 months of minimum wage for the lowest spec iPhone 14.
[1] https://in.gov.br/web/dou/-/despacho-n-2.968/2022-438272613
The judge wrote that in his most recent decision that was discussed here on HN. I would appreciate if someone found the link for the most recent discussion before this one where this was pointed out.
AFAIK, only Apple does that. Most wireless earbuds come with cables that plug into the USB power supplies that people actually have.
Wait, when we're talking about the "charger" here, do we mean the box that converts AC to DC? Or are we talking about the cable that plugs into the phone?
If we're talking about the cable, Apple does and always has included that in the box.
If we're talking about the wall plug thing that converts AC to DC, Apple no longer gives you one of those in the box, but it has always been standard USB. (USB A for the longest time, but USB C in recent years.)
If we're talking about the cable, Apple does and always has included that in the box.
If we're talking about the wall plug thing that converts AC to DC, Apple no longer gives you one of those in the box, but it has always been standard USB. (USB A for the longest time, but USB C in recent years.)
Both.
Most other companies here offer the charging box that is USB-A. While the phone end is USB-C.
So when you buy an iPhone, you get a lightining-USBC cable, while you have a USB-A brick... thus you can't use the iPhone.
In an older thread I gave a more detailed explanation on how this situation happened. But long story short: phones in Brazil are ridiculously expensive, so are chargers, people don't change them often and someone buying an iPhone often is someone that was using a very old phone, sometimes a dumbphone even. And when they don't find a charger in the box, they go to black market to buy some crappy chinese ones that can set themselves on fire.
Most other companies here offer the charging box that is USB-A. While the phone end is USB-C.
So when you buy an iPhone, you get a lightining-USBC cable, while you have a USB-A brick... thus you can't use the iPhone.
In an older thread I gave a more detailed explanation on how this situation happened. But long story short: phones in Brazil are ridiculously expensive, so are chargers, people don't change them often and someone buying an iPhone often is someone that was using a very old phone, sometimes a dumbphone even. And when they don't find a charger in the box, they go to black market to buy some crappy chinese ones that can set themselves on fire.
Ah. So if Apple had put off switching from USB-A to USB-C for a few years they might not have gotten in trouble. And other phone brands that use USB-C and don't include the AC adapter are probably less high-profile than Apple but might find themselves in the same legal situation in the near future.
In fact, yes. What pissed off the judges here was precisely that Apple switched from USB-A bricks to USB-C bricks and dropped the chargers right after. So when their defense was sent to the judge, claiming people already had the chargers, the justice system considered this a blatant lie.
EDIT: the company I work for sent me a Mac M1... The charger brick that came with it, is the only USB-C charger brick I have. And I have a ton of charger bricks...
Meanwhile I am today using 2 USB-mini to USB-C adapters to charge phones. Because my 2 most reliable chargers are USB-A to USB-mini. I tried switching cables around but then fast charging stops working.
EDIT: the company I work for sent me a Mac M1... The charger brick that came with it, is the only USB-C charger brick I have. And I have a ton of charger bricks...
Meanwhile I am today using 2 USB-mini to USB-C adapters to charge phones. Because my 2 most reliable chargers are USB-A to USB-mini. I tried switching cables around but then fast charging stops working.
You can but a standard cable for usb-a charging with other phones. An iphone would require a cable just for it.
Probably worth noting beyond the headline: Apple has judicial permission in Brazil to continue selling the iPhone without a charger, this is until the dispute is resolved one way or another. So for the time being they’re not actually in breach.
So why are they seizing iPhones?
Bureaucrats going on a power trip thats about to get struck down by the courts.
> struck down by the courts
This seizure was ordered by the Brazillian Ministry of Justice.
This seizure was ordered by the Brazillian Ministry of Justice.
We have multiple Ministers of Justice and multiple level courts on Brazil , so an higher court can block lower court decisions, even more when that is still been processed.
There are several Ministers of Justice, but there is only one Ministry of Justice, that answers to the president and is not part of the Judicial Branch.
Anyway, this decision was from the PROCON-DF that is a part of the Judicial Branch where no Minister of Justice works on. It's also only valid at Brasília.
Anyway, this decision was from the PROCON-DF that is a part of the Judicial Branch where no Minister of Justice works on. It's also only valid at Brasília.
What judicial permission are you referring to? Earlier this year, they were about to get their sales suspended by the ministry of justice, plus a 2.2 mi dollar fine. The court decided to postpone suspension and fine until they determine if Apple is trying to circumvent the restrictions[1]. They should comply with the law of the land if they want to continue operating in Brazil.
[1] https://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2022/09/06/ministeri...
[1] https://g1.globo.com/tecnologia/noticia/2022/09/06/ministeri...
iPhones are crazy expensive in Brazil [0], but a 15% import tariff doesn’t explain why Brazilians have to pay twice the price.
[0] https://www.nukeni.com/en/apple/iphone/iphone14-pro-max
[0] https://www.nukeni.com/en/apple/iphone/iphone14-pro-max
Is not only the import tarrif, we also pay federal tax around 10% and state tax around 17% and those are couting the import tarrif and the cost of shipping for it's base. I also want to add here that 90% of salary workers in Brazil receive less than R$3500 as salary each month, before income tax, so for buying even an iPhone 14 you need to save almost 3x your montly wage.
But 15% + 10% + 17% adds up to 42%. But Apple products are often 80-100% more expensive in Brazil compared to the USA and Canada What accounts for the rest of the difference?
Actually using these values it should be closer to 60% as the states taxes is over the import tax and the federal tax. It should be like this: (15%*10%)/(1-17%). Yes taxation in Brazil is confusing.
As for the 40% remaining it should also have reservation for financing as it is common in Brazil to offer 12x flat rate financing on purchases even thought we have around 10% inflation annually and high default rate. But i agree that around 20% to 15% in this 40% gap should be additional profit over Brazilian operations.
just about any electronics here in brazil are ~2x the price, be it phones, computers, computer parts (CPUs, GPUs, MOBOs, etc), or anything else (not just apple, any brand)
This is true. When the PS5 was launched, the prices in Brazil were (they still are but that's beside the point) ridiculously high.
Gamers complained, in an incredibly amateurish PR stnt Sony decided to launch a campaign justifying the high prices on taxes.
Obviously, people decided to calculate this. Even taking the PS5's RRP in the US or Europe (as opposed to cost) and applying Brazilian taxes on top, the final figures were still around 40% lower than what they were charging.
Gamers complained, in an incredibly amateurish PR stnt Sony decided to launch a campaign justifying the high prices on taxes.
Obviously, people decided to calculate this. Even taking the PS5's RRP in the US or Europe (as opposed to cost) and applying Brazilian taxes on top, the final figures were still around 40% lower than what they were charging.
> applying Brazilian taxes on top, the final figures were still around 40% lower than what they were charging
So taxes are only part of the explantion. Who do you suppose is responsible for the rest of the much higher prices? Are Sony and Apple pricing their products way higher for Brazil? Is it the importers? Or are the retailers simply charging what the Brazilian market will bear?
It should be possible for some enterprising Brazilians to import Sony and Apple products from elsewhere in the world, pay the Brazilian taxes, and still sell for less than the current retailers, which would eventually bring down the prices. I can't understand why that doesn't happen.
So taxes are only part of the explantion. Who do you suppose is responsible for the rest of the much higher prices? Are Sony and Apple pricing their products way higher for Brazil? Is it the importers? Or are the retailers simply charging what the Brazilian market will bear?
It should be possible for some enterprising Brazilians to import Sony and Apple products from elsewhere in the world, pay the Brazilian taxes, and still sell for less than the current retailers, which would eventually bring down the prices. I can't understand why that doesn't happen.
> Who do you suppose is responsible for the rest of the much higher prices?
In the case of Apple, they sell them directly so I don't think it's anyone but themselves. Not sure about Sony and others.
> Or are the retailers simply charging what the Brazilian market will bear?
This is certainly a factor. Similarly, cars are way overpriced in Brazil, simply because people will pay.
> It should be possible for some enterprising Brazilians to import Sony and Apple products from elsewhere in the world
They do, but usually small scale. I know people who have purchased Apple computers for half the Brazilian price from sellers on Mercado Livre (South American eBay).
In the case of Apple, they sell them directly so I don't think it's anyone but themselves. Not sure about Sony and others.
> Or are the retailers simply charging what the Brazilian market will bear?
This is certainly a factor. Similarly, cars are way overpriced in Brazil, simply because people will pay.
> It should be possible for some enterprising Brazilians to import Sony and Apple products from elsewhere in the world
They do, but usually small scale. I know people who have purchased Apple computers for half the Brazilian price from sellers on Mercado Livre (South American eBay).
The politicians who made those laws have no idea what they were doing. This only serves for those crooks to bribe companies.
Eventually we will get to a million laws and therefore a million different ways that they can bribe, and a million hours any company need to waste to do anything in this country.
This only adds uncertainty and forces chaos into everything. Let alone the arrogance of the government (or bystanders) to get in between what a private company and individuals consumers do.
The government treats the oh so poor consumers like stupid animals who cannot buy a freaking charger separately.
In the end this simply increases the costs for the consumers themselves.
Eventually we will get to a million laws and therefore a million different ways that they can bribe, and a million hours any company need to waste to do anything in this country.
This only adds uncertainty and forces chaos into everything. Let alone the arrogance of the government (or bystanders) to get in between what a private company and individuals consumers do.
The government treats the oh so poor consumers like stupid animals who cannot buy a freaking charger separately.
In the end this simply increases the costs for the consumers themselves.
Great, let's make sure every new iPhone comes with a charger, not as if we need to care about adding waste to our environment. What else to expect from a government that greenlights Amazon deforestation...
I wonder why Apple didn't give out a coupon for an optional charger that could be sent in for a cash-back. Maybe because that would enrage the Brazilian Ministery of Justice?
I just bought a light fixture a few days ago. No bulbs came with it. I also just bought a new pair of wireless earbuds, and no power brick came with it. In both cases, it would have been nice, and saved me the extra expense, but a government mandate to force manufacturers to include them?
That's because you assume that electronics cost the same everywhere outside the U.S but that is certainly not the case. In fact, Brazil is notorious for being protective of their own localindustry and as a result iPhones and other gadgets are more expensive there than anywhere else on earth. As a consumer the least I can expect for these crazy markups is to not have to spend additional money for a charger or a lightning cable.
https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/15/yet-again-brazil-has-the-most...
> Brazil is notorious for being protective of their own localindustry and as a result iPhones and other gadgets are more expensive
I used to think that way, but I have been changing my mind over the past 5 years as I started to pay attention to some of Brazil's numbers. Its public structure is huge and expensive to keep in comparison to its overall productivity. That translates into more taxes and a natural overhead to any company willing to pay them in order to run a business legally. In the end of the day, the consumer is paying for all that.
I used to think that way, but I have been changing my mind over the past 5 years as I started to pay attention to some of Brazil's numbers. Its public structure is huge and expensive to keep in comparison to its overall productivity. That translates into more taxes and a natural overhead to any company willing to pay them in order to run a business legally. In the end of the day, the consumer is paying for all that.
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I agree 100%. I'm not expert on the subject, but their economy hasn't been doing all that great as of late and deep reforms are definitely needed!
No, I don't assume that. I assume that if the chargers are included that the base price of the item would be higher. If they included the chargers (or lightbulbs) the cost of item would be higher in Brazil. Is that what you want?
So the solution for protectionism-created problems is... more protectionism?
Brazil seizes iPhones from stores while the EU which has a lot more leverage forces Apple to switch to USB-C altogether. All countries look after their own best interests and use legislation to counter every perceived threat to their local economies. This is the same reason why the Biden administration is banning China from acquiring high end chips from NVIDIA, AMD and other U.S companies.
-edit: fixed small typo
I hope Brazil has more local smartphone producers then, because the EU has no significant one (that I am aware of)...
Samsung and Xiaomi are filling in that void in Brazil. Here's a video which offers a bit more insight if you are interested: https://m.facebook.com/uptin/videos/3000-iphone-why-is-apple...
windex(3)
Are there actually people who want to have a charger included?
I have about half a dozen of them already, what would I even do with another?
As long as there is a USB-A to phone connector cable in there what would you want with another charger? If you really need one, buy one seperately.
As long as there is a USB-A to phone connector cable in there what would you want with another charger? If you really need one, buy one seperately.
With every new generation the charging power drawn increased so yes I might have a bunch of old chargers as backup but none of them can charge as fast as the newest.
And phone companies include high quality chargers which allow their phones to charge as fast as possible?
If anything I do not want chargers I get with devices because manufacturers cheap out on them and inevitably they are not very good.
If anything I do not want chargers I get with devices because manufacturers cheap out on them and inevitably they are not very good.
What a ridiculous argument. Chargers from the same company that brings you the phone tend to be the highest quality due to rigorous testing. If first party chargers aren't very good then third party ones are unusuable.
Remember news of all those "exploding" devices? You guessed it, third party chargers.
Remember news of all those "exploding" devices? You guessed it, third party chargers.
I expect them to supply one which is suitable for purpose and cable that is good as well. But maybe I'm just weird.
Usually they ship cheap ones, which charge relatively slow. They definitely work, but if you have bought any other device with a charger you likely already have one just as good.
To be honest the worst cables I ever used where apple ones, coincidentally also the most expensive. (And including cables is pretty okay, I think)
To be honest the worst cables I ever used where apple ones, coincidentally also the most expensive. (And including cables is pretty okay, I think)
,,Are there actually people who want to have a charger included? I have about half a dozen of them already, what would I even do with another?''
You should check your priviledges before asking such a question.
For a huge amount of the people in the world with an iPhone, their iPhone worth more than all other assets they own together (Brazil is such a country).
You should check your priviledges before asking such a question.
For a huge amount of the people in the world with an iPhone, their iPhone worth more than all other assets they own together (Brazil is such a country).
Lets get this straight:
If you are money sensitive you want to pay extra for apple to include a charger, instead of getting the cheapest one that reasonably works and saving a few dollars.
Thanks for the great advice.
Thanks for the great advice.
One would think that Apple could afford to include a charger that costs them $10 in their $1000+ phone box on which they have a 50+% margin, but hey. Guess you can keep buying their official chargers at $99 because standard USB-C chargers might or might not work on their devices depending on how they feel today.
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experience has taught me to always be wary of anyone who starts with "check your privilege"
Being wary doesn’t mean the person is wrong.
Oh please. If you are that poor, the last thing you are buying is an iPhone in Brazil. Brazil is the most expensive place to buy a phone in the world.
https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/15/yet-again-brazil-has-the-most...
An iPhone is only being bought by the most affluent in those countries.
https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/15/yet-again-brazil-has-the-most...
An iPhone is only being bought by the most affluent in those countries.
I am Brazillian, and I must say you are underestimating Apple's marketing and Elop dumbness (before Elop, Nokia had absolute market domination here, Sybian was both good enough and cheap enough to have something like 70% market share, Brazillians even made a bootleg port of Counter-Strike for Sybian...)
For example some years ago shortly after the launch of a new iPhone, it hit the news that a waiter had sold one of his kidneys to buy the iPhone.
I was going to post the link here but... search engines keep prioritizing the Nigerian and Chinese guys that did the same and I can't find the Brazillian one anymore.
Nigerian: https://www.thesouthafrican.com/culture/entertainment/nigeri...
Chinese: https://www.vice.com/en/article/bjqzv5/teen-who-sold-a-kidne...
For example some years ago shortly after the launch of a new iPhone, it hit the news that a waiter had sold one of his kidneys to buy the iPhone.
I was going to post the link here but... search engines keep prioritizing the Nigerian and Chinese guys that did the same and I can't find the Brazillian one anymore.
Nigerian: https://www.thesouthafrican.com/culture/entertainment/nigeri...
Chinese: https://www.vice.com/en/article/bjqzv5/teen-who-sold-a-kidne...
Sure, it may be true, when I travel to Brazil, girls always want me to buy them an iPhone (and probably other affluent tourist guys as well). Of course they are not the one buying it, they always get it as a gift.
How does that dispute anything I said? It’s still affluent people buying the phone and wouldn’t struggle buying a $10 USB wall charger.
We have alot iphones in favelas. People buy in up to 24 installments.
An official Apple charger costs R$ 220 (reais) in the official store, that's 20% of the monthly minimum wage.
Then don’t buy an official Apple charger? You can buy a cheap third party charger almost anywhere.
It doesn't matter if it is official or not, selling a product that needs another one to work is configured as "tie-in sales", plainly prohibited in Brazil's Consumer Protection Code.
In that case, it would be illegal to sell a game console that requires games to work or selling a cell phone that requires cell service to work. Does that also mean that Apple can’t sell an AppleTV without an HDMI cable? Or for that matter sell an AppleTV without selling a router or without selling internet service.
What if the richer person didn’t realize this and gives the poor person the iPhone without a charger? The rich person has left. They cannot buy the wall charger any more.
Not everyone has extra money. In the US, it’s easy to get an iPhone for “free” that locks you in 2-3 years of credits. A person can be in debt and paycheck to paycheck and get an iPhone.
Apple isn’t doing anything for the environment. They are doing what makes them the most money. We should be on the side of the common person who is like us, regardless of how poor they are or if they got an iPhone they can not afford. There’s no reason to be on Apple’s side.
Not everyone has extra money. In the US, it’s easy to get an iPhone for “free” that locks you in 2-3 years of credits. A person can be in debt and paycheck to paycheck and get an iPhone.
Apple isn’t doing anything for the environment. They are doing what makes them the most money. We should be on the side of the common person who is like us, regardless of how poor they are or if they got an iPhone they can not afford. There’s no reason to be on Apple’s side.
So rich people are buying poor people an iPhone - where the poor person still has to pay their own cell phone bill. But the poor person can’t buy a cheap third party usb c wall charger?
And if Apple is forced to include a wall charger, what’s stopping them from just charging extra for the phone?
You really don’t think this argument is a little incredulous?
Seeing that 90% of the world even in third world countries have some type of phone, you’re telling me that the person who got the free iPhone in the most expensive country in the world to buy a phone won’t find a way to buy a charger when if they hadn’t gotten the phone for free they would have bought an Android phone - that costs more than the charger?
And if Apple is forced to include a wall charger, what’s stopping them from just charging extra for the phone?
You really don’t think this argument is a little incredulous?
Seeing that 90% of the world even in third world countries have some type of phone, you’re telling me that the person who got the free iPhone in the most expensive country in the world to buy a phone won’t find a way to buy a charger when if they hadn’t gotten the phone for free they would have bought an Android phone - that costs more than the charger?
Why make life harder for the poor person? To appease Apple’s profit line? I don’t understand the defense of huge corporation vs someone closer to you.
They could raise the price. They probably wouldn’t do. Those would be the wierdest price points. Apple isn’t gonna charge $10 more per iPhone and have weird first time prices. Like $810 instead of $799
My example isn’t even a stretch. It’s a legit issue that happens. I have multiple examples of it. I don’t want to assume but maybe you’re in some sort of bubble?
They could raise the price. They probably wouldn’t do. Those would be the wierdest price points. Apple isn’t gonna charge $10 more per iPhone and have weird first time prices. Like $810 instead of $799
My example isn’t even a stretch. It’s a legit issue that happens. I have multiple examples of it. I don’t want to assume but maybe you’re in some sort of bubble?
[deleted]
Mysteriously Apple choose to swap to a USB-C to Lightning as the pack in cable at the same time as they dropped a pack in charger. Strange timing that...
Perhaps because there are people out there who don't have one already, and don't want to give apple $20 extra because they wanted to increase their profit margin.
Why would you think that Apple wouldn’t just charge an extra $20 when selling a phone in Brazil to include it?
There are dozens of companies producing chargers. If anything not getting a charger gives you greater freedom of choice, since you do not need to get an apple charger.
If you do not have a charger buy one. It is not like these things break every year or so.
If you do not have a charger buy one. It is not like these things break every year or so.
Make it $x90 for a phone without charger and $x99 for one with it and I’m good. Otherwise it’s nickel and dime bullshit dressed in “think of the environment”.
> half a dozen
Hold my beer.
I have at least 10, and I've thrown out, twice as many.
Actually, it's probably a lot more, but I can't be bothered to count. Most are cheap pieces of crap.
Hold my beer.
I have at least 10, and I've thrown out, twice as many.
Actually, it's probably a lot more, but I can't be bothered to count. Most are cheap pieces of crap.
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted for this, Apple's plastic cables are some of the worst pieces of garbage you can own. If you live in a family with pets, those cheapass cables won't even make it 2 weeks without becoming dangerously frayed.
> If you live in a family with pets, those cheapass cables won't even make it 2 weeks without becoming dangerously frayed.
Funny that, I’m typing this on a phone plugged into a cable I bought in 2016 and with which have travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and is in perfect condition. My dog is right next to me too.
Some qualification of your blanket statement is (as usual for you) required.
Funny that, I’m typing this on a phone plugged into a cable I bought in 2016 and with which have travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and is in perfect condition. My dog is right next to me too.
Some qualification of your blanket statement is (as usual for you) required.
I hadn’t noticed downvotes, so I guess it’s a race between people with or without a sense of humor/irony. Maybe it’s the “can’t be bothered to count” part. That attitude is probably anathema, to this crowd.
I toss out “charging-only” cables, all the time, as well as the crappiest wall bricks, which are likely fire hazards.
I own a lot of kit, so I have many of both.
I toss out “charging-only” cables, all the time, as well as the crappiest wall bricks, which are likely fire hazards.
I own a lot of kit, so I have many of both.
Yes, I go through Apple's first-party cables every few months. They're extremely flimsy and require constant replacement.
Mine all died or got lost, can I have some of yours since you clearly don’t need them?
I'm honestly a bit disappointed Brazil is getting in Apple's way. Sure, I do agree with the overall intent of this initiative. Still, it's going to be counter-productive in the long-run by making Apple and resellers either leave the country or make their products more expensive to cover the cost of doing business here.
Apple has margin to spare, more than any other phone company I reckon, no way they'll leave a country as big a brazil over something like this. It shouldn't be a big ask to provide a charger when you sell a phone worth multiples of the minimum wage.
I do feel for the resellers that hold them in stock right now, not sure how these units will be treated.
I do feel for the resellers that hold them in stock right now, not sure how these units will be treated.
But Apple skipped including a power brick under a greenwashing initiative which was really to skim more profits? It's a way to rein in Apple's greed from the looks of it.
You're delusional if you think Apple will leave a massive market like that over some petty dispute. It's like people think they operate with razor-thin margins. Do you believe the price difference is only due to tariffs? Subtract them, then compare them again. You're in for a fun surprise. Add that to the fact that it's not only a hardware business but also software, with a good 15%-30% profit over sales through its app distribution scheme.
Seems pretty arbitrary to me, iPhone charges directly from any standard USB power outlet. So why not shut down hotels and seize homes that have only old fashioned 120v blade plugs or whatever? Most hotels I stay in worldwide have USB plugs and so does my friend's home in Texas
But don't tell this to a geriatric politician who can't understand the concept that God didn't create the original style power outlets (thus making them the forever standard) on the 2nd day of Genesis
But don't tell this to a geriatric politician who can't understand the concept that God didn't create the original style power outlets (thus making them the forever standard) on the 2nd day of Genesis
>So why not shut down hotels and seize homes that have only old fashioned 120v blade plugs or whatever? Most hotels I stay in worldwide have USB plugs and so does my friend's home in Texas
This is going on a tangent, but I'm curious: Am I the only one that avoids those sockets like the god damn plague? It's a USB socket of unknown origin/destination, those things are theoretically capable of data transmission. I'm not going to plug stuff like my phone in them, that's like sticking your wazoo in any and every crevice you come across.
This is going on a tangent, but I'm curious: Am I the only one that avoids those sockets like the god damn plague? It's a USB socket of unknown origin/destination, those things are theoretically capable of data transmission. I'm not going to plug stuff like my phone in them, that's like sticking your wazoo in any and every crevice you come across.
You can just buy power-only cable for that, it just has data lines snipped. Probably won't negotiate max power tho.
I'd personally be more worried that they put cheapest possible one and it will fall apart putting 120/240 on the USB... apparently the wall mounted ones also die pretty quickly because of heat issues
I'd personally be more worried that they put cheapest possible one and it will fall apart putting 120/240 on the USB... apparently the wall mounted ones also die pretty quickly because of heat issues
I do the same. I'm not worried about data over the cable, but more how reliable the power supply is or even the plug. Who knows if some idiot jammed a piece of metal in it? Or if it's some cheap power source that will either fry the phone or not charge very fast.
I'll use it if no other option, but otherwise I'll take a pass.
I'll use it if no other option, but otherwise I'll take a pass.
Also doesn't usb constantly being updated for higher and higher charging capabilities like every other year? Those power outlets sound pretty useless now if they only support slow charging. Even if you put one today at your home with highest powering capacity, it will probably be obselete in 5 years
Even the slowest possible charger will still easily charge any phone overnight so it’s not a huge deal.
I agree with you. But you have to explicitly give permission for the iPhone to accept data when it’s plugged in.
>Seems pretty arbitrary to me, iPhone charges directly from any standard USB power outlet.
Quite often when you use those the phone will complain and tell you to use only the official chargers, and their warranty doesn't cover damage caused by third party chargers either. Once that's in play the argument that it can charge from any standard USB outlet becomes very shaky.
Brazil has a huge amount of problems with politicians and most of them are not due to a lack of understanding but straight up corruption, this is not one of them.
Quite often when you use those the phone will complain and tell you to use only the official chargers, and their warranty doesn't cover damage caused by third party chargers either. Once that's in play the argument that it can charge from any standard USB outlet becomes very shaky.
Brazil has a huge amount of problems with politicians and most of them are not due to a lack of understanding but straight up corruption, this is not one of them.
iPhones come with a lightning-to-USB-C cable, not USB-A which most chargers and outlets still are. They only sold USB-C chargers very briefly before removing them from the box, so even if you already had an iPhone, there is a 90% chance you’ll need to buy a new charger.
Dude, the concept of a new phone coming with a charger is not that dictadorial. Your analogy with the outlets does not make much sense in this context whatsoever.
Especially if the connector is not compatible with any other brand’s.
The phone comes with a USB C to lightning cord. The issue is the power adapter.
Ah ok. Sorry, got it wrong.
Because usb outlets are not the requirement. If it was, a fair comparison would be Brazil asking it as a requirement from new hotels/houses and if they don't comply then fine them , and if they still don't the seize them
Not everyone in the world lives in the hotels you stayed or in your friend's house at Texas. Until then we need chargers for using an iphone with our old fashioned power outlets I am afraid.
Not everyone in the world lives in the hotels you stayed or in your friend's house at Texas. Until then we need chargers for using an iphone with our old fashioned power outlets I am afraid.
[deleted]
Brazil has a consumer law, that defines what companies can/can't do when selling to consumers. It has like, warranty minimums for durable goods (90 days), "no questions asked" return right for virtual purchases (7 days), etc... among those there is a very special one called "Venda Casada", which translates to tie-in/combined sale.
The "venda casada" article forbids the condition of an purchase to the necessity of purchasing another item (from whoever is selling it). For the Apple case, the judge understands that by removing the charger (and therefore selling as a separate product), Apple is forcing the consumer to purchase 2 items when acquiring an iPhone, as the charger is a must have item for a smartphone, and to make things worse, Apple has a proprietary charger so new customers and those migrating from other platforms (like android) will need to buy the charger.
The rationale is pretty similar to a TV brand selling a TV without the charging cable, since everyone has a TV, so they surely must already have a charging cable.
This is a law, it is not Brazil government/judiciary with some vendetta against Apple. Many companies have had decisions against them because of this.
I hope this helps make things clearer. Cheers!