How the marijuana ‘green rush’ fell apart(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
How the marijuana ‘green rush’ fell apart
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/12/30/marijuana-supply-sales-turmoil/
227 comments
>I'm in the wine world, so I suppose I have some sour grapes, so to speak. [...] $10 of fruit in a good year.
Even if the demand for grapes dries up and withers on the vine, at least you won't have a problem raisin money.
Even if the demand for grapes dries up and withers on the vine, at least you won't have a problem raisin money.
Did you hear about the viticulturalist whose crop was lost in a drought? He said his whole reason for being was to pay off his raisin debt. (I'm still workshopping this one.)
"He said paying off debts was his only raisin d'être"
Oh I heard it through the grape vine, oh and I'm just about to lose my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UShiwymsX0w
Raised in that California sunshine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDqMmIqA_Ak
Huh? Wow. Must have been something I ate...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UShiwymsX0w
Raised in that California sunshine!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDqMmIqA_Ak
Huh? Wow. Must have been something I ate...
Howsabout "He said his whole reason for being was raisin money to pay his debts"? Though the punchline is similar to the previous comment, if you're trying to avoid that.
I grew up in Ashland (visiting there right now, in fact) and have family who funded one of the first marijuana companies in the state.
Some problems were bad behavior from legal growers, but I'd argue the bigger problems were caused by regulatory and oversight failures from OLCC and enforcement of existing laws on illegal grow operations.
1) OLCC allowed for way too many grow license at first. For a state of 4.3 million, you have a serious upper bound to how much the legal market can support. There was some discussion about weed tourism, and a bit of work to allow legal interstate sales between Washington and California, but nothing really materialized.
2) A plant could produce $500+ in product, but it cost tens of thousands of dollars per acre just to get your plants in the ground. That's not including harvesting, drying, trimming, and storage. Given that there's no crop insurance, if anything goes wrong you're easily a couple hundred thousand in the hole.
3) OLCC often added regulations mid-grow, after it was impossible to effectively respond. This included things such as dropping the batch size for a test (which costs hundreds of dollars per run) down to 10lbs per batch. This sort of uncertainty, the oversupply of licenses, and the huge up getting operational costs made it financially impossible for a lot of farms to break even. I don't condone it, but I do understand why a lot of folks under reported yield and sold part of their harvest in other states.
4) A lot of the truly bad actors we're organized crime rings moving in (Russian mob and Yakuza from what I heard). They got a hemp license and grew marijuana illegally (usually having a few hemp plants in case a state tester came to the grow site). Local law enforcement knew about it, but they were literally out manned and out gunned. The feds eventually offered support, but it took a while. Folks understandably freaked out, but OLCC mainly used the mob as a pretense to try to wrestle hemp regulation away from the ODA (which they have been trying to do for years) rather than acknowledge that this was an enforcement problem, not a regulatory problem.
Some problems were bad behavior from legal growers, but I'd argue the bigger problems were caused by regulatory and oversight failures from OLCC and enforcement of existing laws on illegal grow operations.
1) OLCC allowed for way too many grow license at first. For a state of 4.3 million, you have a serious upper bound to how much the legal market can support. There was some discussion about weed tourism, and a bit of work to allow legal interstate sales between Washington and California, but nothing really materialized.
2) A plant could produce $500+ in product, but it cost tens of thousands of dollars per acre just to get your plants in the ground. That's not including harvesting, drying, trimming, and storage. Given that there's no crop insurance, if anything goes wrong you're easily a couple hundred thousand in the hole.
3) OLCC often added regulations mid-grow, after it was impossible to effectively respond. This included things such as dropping the batch size for a test (which costs hundreds of dollars per run) down to 10lbs per batch. This sort of uncertainty, the oversupply of licenses, and the huge up getting operational costs made it financially impossible for a lot of farms to break even. I don't condone it, but I do understand why a lot of folks under reported yield and sold part of their harvest in other states.
4) A lot of the truly bad actors we're organized crime rings moving in (Russian mob and Yakuza from what I heard). They got a hemp license and grew marijuana illegally (usually having a few hemp plants in case a state tester came to the grow site). Local law enforcement knew about it, but they were literally out manned and out gunned. The feds eventually offered support, but it took a while. Folks understandably freaked out, but OLCC mainly used the mob as a pretense to try to wrestle hemp regulation away from the ODA (which they have been trying to do for years) rather than acknowledge that this was an enforcement problem, not a regulatory problem.
On (1) I'm don't see how limiting the number of growers was, or should have been, within OLCC's role. When governments try to match supply to demand this way it generally goes very poorly in the best case (ex: certificate of need requirements for opening hospitals, federal marketing orders limiting production) and runs into regulatory capture in the worst case (ex: increasing the entry requirements for professions to boost wages).
The people best included to make good decisions on how much to produce were the growers and their investors, with their own time and money on the line.
The people best included to make good decisions on how much to produce were the growers and their investors, with their own time and money on the line.
Whether you agree with it or not, OLCCs role is to regulate the entire market - including supply and demand. They do the same thing with liquor. Oregon is a controlled liquor state where everything sold has to move through the government. I think they're draconian and heavy handed, but it's absolutely part their job.
Philosophically, I agree with limiting the supply via regulation and licensing for at least the first few years. Everything else was already highly regulated: it's a schedule 1 substance that can't be sold out of state and can only be sold to 21+ in state. Some of the biggest players in the existing black market were the Mexican cartels, and they absolutely were trying to take advantage of the legal status to hide illegal activity.
Nothing about that market says it will go well with an immediate free-for-all. Long-term that may be ok, but short term that was just unrealistic
Philosophically, I agree with limiting the supply via regulation and licensing for at least the first few years. Everything else was already highly regulated: it's a schedule 1 substance that can't be sold out of state and can only be sold to 21+ in state. Some of the biggest players in the existing black market were the Mexican cartels, and they absolutely were trying to take advantage of the legal status to hide illegal activity.
Nothing about that market says it will go well with an immediate free-for-all. Long-term that may be ok, but short term that was just unrealistic
I love Ashland. The lithia water is some of my favorite water I've ever encountered. I have occasionally wondered: is it possible to buy land there with a well that produces that amazing water? I have looked around the area of emmigrant creek and the gun range, from which the water is apparently piped?
I'd love to know more about this. I think about this water often.
I'd love to know more about this. I think about this water often.
This makes me so happy. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone who actually enjoys Lithia water!
I'm not the expert, but you might check out Colestin. There was once a resort there built during the heyday of "healing" mineral waters. Land is cheap, although it is quite remote and extremely prone to wildfire.
https://www.livinggoldpress.com/TakingtheWaters.htm
I'm not the expert, but you might check out Colestin. There was once a resort there built during the heyday of "healing" mineral waters. Land is cheap, although it is quite remote and extremely prone to wildfire.
https://www.livinggoldpress.com/TakingtheWaters.htm
>you have a serious upper bound to how much the legal market can support.
Demand is very much elastic in response to price.
Demand is very much elastic in response to price.
That's true until the market is saturated. Most consumers aren't going to double their consumption if price falls by half - unless you're basically an addict, there are diminishing returns to consumption. Oregon grew way more than the state would ever consume, regardless of price for multiple years.
Saturated at what price point though? Until you can get high as cheaply as you can get your hands on a six pack of beer I don't thing we'll see demand plateau.
Some years, I'd argue you would struggle to move all of the product if it was even free. I don't think you understand just how much weed was produced in Oregon. You're speaking generally, so don't know if you're taking into consideration the specifics of the Oregon market. Total US demand has very little impact on the legal Oregon market, except to encourage more legal growers to sell part of their crop black market in other states. Oregon produced so much that even releasing the pressure valve that way didn't stop the market from cratering.
And, at the very least, the market was saturated below the break even point for production. The retail price didn't completely crater because dispensaries limited the supply based on their location, but a lot of producers could not move their product in the legal market and were left twiddling they're thumbs
And, at the very least, the market was saturated below the break even point for production. The retail price didn't completely crater because dispensaries limited the supply based on their location, but a lot of producers could not move their product in the legal market and were left twiddling they're thumbs
Hey Ashlander! I'm out in the Applegate (as you probably could have guessed).
Thank you for adding some more nuance to my post. I agree with everything you've written here. It matches my understanding of what happened despite my earlier oversimplifications.
There were compounding problems, but I think the story to be told is one of ineffective regulation and underenforcement. The regulators just didn't have a complete understanding of the industry, which introduced loopholes large enough to drive a Mexican cartel-sized truck through. Better representation from industry might have helped, but it's hard to say.
In their defense, the market changed underneath everyone. Keep in mind that there was virtually no public awareness of CBD until after it became legal to farm (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=c...). The wink-wink nudge-nudge "hemp" growers knew this, and moved with incredible speed to farm as many acres as possible before the regulators caught up. Somewhat like flooding a small town with Bird scooters in the middle of the night.
I'm not saying the industry was perfect beforehand, but it was mostly fine until it became clear that there would be a 1-3 year window for growers to extract maximum profits. At this point the whole valley got ground up in the mighty garbage disposal of capitalism.
Thank you for adding some more nuance to my post. I agree with everything you've written here. It matches my understanding of what happened despite my earlier oversimplifications.
There were compounding problems, but I think the story to be told is one of ineffective regulation and underenforcement. The regulators just didn't have a complete understanding of the industry, which introduced loopholes large enough to drive a Mexican cartel-sized truck through. Better representation from industry might have helped, but it's hard to say.
In their defense, the market changed underneath everyone. Keep in mind that there was virtually no public awareness of CBD until after it became legal to farm (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=c...). The wink-wink nudge-nudge "hemp" growers knew this, and moved with incredible speed to farm as many acres as possible before the regulators caught up. Somewhat like flooding a small town with Bird scooters in the middle of the night.
I'm not saying the industry was perfect beforehand, but it was mostly fine until it became clear that there would be a 1-3 year window for growers to extract maximum profits. At this point the whole valley got ground up in the mighty garbage disposal of capitalism.
I was guessing either out there or one of the ones vineyards just outside Ashland :).
> The wink-wink nudge-nudge "hemp" growers knew this, and moved with incredible speed to farm as many acres as possible before the regulators caught up.
That's super fair. The ODA wasn't culturally equipped to tell whether a company was a cartel front or a legitimate business. Really nice folks, but way outside anything they had experienced. I don't think OLCC would have done any better though.
The regulatory response also made 0 sense to me: grandfather in existing hemp growers and block anyone new. That just locked in the people they were trying to get rid of
> it was mostly fine until it became clear that there would be a 1-3 year window for growers to extract maximum profits. At this point the whole valley got ground up in the mighty garbage disposal of capitalism.
Oof. That, sadly, hits the nail on the head. The folks who were in it for the long term or more than just the money got eaten alive, and then the bubble popped.
> The wink-wink nudge-nudge "hemp" growers knew this, and moved with incredible speed to farm as many acres as possible before the regulators caught up.
That's super fair. The ODA wasn't culturally equipped to tell whether a company was a cartel front or a legitimate business. Really nice folks, but way outside anything they had experienced. I don't think OLCC would have done any better though.
The regulatory response also made 0 sense to me: grandfather in existing hemp growers and block anyone new. That just locked in the people they were trying to get rid of
> it was mostly fine until it became clear that there would be a 1-3 year window for growers to extract maximum profits. At this point the whole valley got ground up in the mighty garbage disposal of capitalism.
Oof. That, sadly, hits the nail on the head. The folks who were in it for the long term or more than just the money got eaten alive, and then the bubble popped.
> All the big-money growers went to Oklahoma
So accurate. Also a lot of foreign money in pot farms in OK... sometimes leading to essentially slavery on the farms resulting in the deaths of workers.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-demanded-300k-killi...
So accurate. Also a lot of foreign money in pot farms in OK... sometimes leading to essentially slavery on the farms resulting in the deaths of workers.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-demanded-300k-killi...
Unfortunately, I can tell you exactly how it's going to go in Oklahoma as well. Not great.
You can get a lot more than $500 off a single plant. Outdoors grown right into the soil, you could get a pound or more off a single humongous plant, and in California with a medical card you can have 12 of these plants growing at once. Even a small indoor tent grown plant is good for like 5-6 oz or more 3-5 months from start to harvest. Genetics are great these days for seeds and clones. Imagine parting that out for $200 oz or better yet the $30 a gram metric the cops use when they weigh their busts.
You can get $5000 or a lot more for a single bottle (~1 plant) of wine, too. But if you're growing acres of either crop you aren't making those numbers reliably.
Is your bottle of wine ready for market in 6 months or less from when you plant your vineyard? Probably not though. The speed at which you can get these yields is another huge advantage for these crops. Some commercial growers are having new plants grow up to harvest continuously, with separate rooms for vegetative growing, flowering, and even maintaining a genetic library of clones fit for expanding and out planting in your greenhouse. You can also grow this crop anywhere in the world, unlike grapevine.
You have to have 3 rooms, otherwise you're buying clones, which is stupid expensive, when you can just take cuttings and make your own super easy. The two precursor rooms don't require nearly as much space or power though.
You think bulk growers are making significantly more than $500 a lb? $30/g was fictional even before legalization.
I've been out of the game for a little bit, but bulk rates for black market weed was about $1000/lb a few years after legalization in CO.
That jibes with the $500 per plant figure and the other fellow's 'could get 1 lb+ off a single humongous plant' figure, typical yield is closer to 1/2 lb.
these are full time farmers, they aren't sitting around at home with 2 phones waiting for teenagers to pay retail price between fortnite matches. Instead they sold bulk on average for $660 / LB this last year, so ~ $250-330 per outdoor plant. MOST of that average is indoor high grade, so this can be seen as a ceiling on outdoor plant economics.
So your napkin math that "you can get a lot more than $500 off a single plant" appears to overly enthusiastic.
So your napkin math that "you can get a lot more than $500 off a single plant" appears to overly enthusiastic.
I had a legal grow in Northern California for almost 10 years.
You can get a lot more than $500 per plant, even at $500 per pound.
I've seen guys with 10'x10'x4' raised beds for each plant. They start them indoors or in the greenhouse so they're already several feet tall when they're transplanted outdoors at the beginning of spring. One friend in particular consistently harvested over 5 lbs per plant this way. So did most of his neighbors.
You can get a lot more than $500 per plant, even at $500 per pound.
I've seen guys with 10'x10'x4' raised beds for each plant. They start them indoors or in the greenhouse so they're already several feet tall when they're transplanted outdoors at the beginning of spring. One friend in particular consistently harvested over 5 lbs per plant this way. So did most of his neighbors.
Yeah ten pounders are not that hard to achieve, just veg all winter and plant in a yard of in a huge hole dug by a backhoe. Important too to use strain that rocks up at the end.
If you are still paying $200 (retail) for an OZ you are getting scammed.
> Plus, the indoor grows we’re usually doing multiple harvests a year.
Maximum of four, and if you have it staggered in multiple grow environments, then you’re doing 12, one every month.
Maximum of four, and if you have it staggered in multiple grow environments, then you’re doing 12, one every month.
As long as regulation and taxes are a dominant cost in the weed industry it will remain volatile. Some state is gonna come along and tax it slightly less than Oklahoma and everyone will go there. Wash, rinse repeat among the 30-something states that are sufficiently arable for weed until the taxation is a low enough fraction of the overall cost that other factors (water cost, growing season, etc) dominate.
[deleted]
Wait, why in the world would they go to Oklahoma to grow? That is like asking for trouble from the law.
To sun it up from the NYTimes article posted below, Oklahoma does in fact have legal medical marijuana. In addition it apparently has pretty lax regulations compared to other states on growing. Basically little limit on how many farms are allowed, how much they can grow, etc. And apparently pretty low startup costs (I assume license fees and all that are low).
OK is as close to a free market as you can get, low license fees, taxes, etc. Recreational use is on the ballet for a special session in the spring and it’s already legal for medicinal use and a very liberal def. of “medicinal” at that. There are dispensaries everywhere.
/own 20 acres in SE Oklahoma (tangent, my property taxes last year was a whole $9)
/own 20 acres in SE Oklahoma (tangent, my property taxes last year was a whole $9)
Anyone know how to circumvent the paywall on these links on ios?
Paste the URL in at archive.today: https://archive.ph/DFh3y
Brave browser with JS disabled
archive.is or one of the "web archives" plugins that use it
It's funny that marijuana advocates wasted decades pleading their case under the guise of personal freedom, social equity, compassionate use, and the like.
Turns out all it took to convince the right was showing them the money.
Turns out all it took to convince the right was showing them the money.
Is that more of a "hahaha" funny or a "my head feels funny" funny?
@ramesh31 my take on the California commercial weed disaster is the opposite: the greedy supermajority progressives legalized to get more tax revenue to spend on their various pet projects, but their crushing bureaucracy quickly killed the golden goose. The various libertarian weed growers either went back to the black market or left the state.
zxcvbn4038(2)
>"Whereas my plant takes half a decade to establish, then produces $10 of fruit in a good year."
I would be interested in hearing more detail about the economics of the $10. Is this price you get from selling your grapes to someone else or is the net from selling the wine that you produce from your plants?
I would be interested in hearing more detail about the economics of the $10. Is this price you get from selling your grapes to someone else or is the net from selling the wine that you produce from your plants?
also involved the winemaking and vineyard biz (east coast us). i think that estimate is on the lower end, but also per season (single harvest per year). while the vines do take 5 years to really start producing, they will continue to produce for decades after, with a cyclical nature of peaks and valleys approx every 5 years. $10/per plant seems very low, even if selling only as u-pick. also highly depends on your spacing and grape type.
for us in the south east, muscadine grapes are enormous and a single plant with a 12' spread can produce quite a lot per plant at its peak, easily 80lbs of grapes in one season. wine is approx 15-20lbs grapes per gallon from that.
Well, I don't make my living off of growing grapes. I just do that part for fun. So my napkin math is basically $1.50 per pound, which is on the low end of what I pay when I buy them from a vineyard.
Real grape growers are looking to maximize dollar per acre. There's a lot that goes into it if you're trying to turn a profit. But at the end of the day it's about keeping the yield high and the input costs (especially labor) low.
Real grape growers are looking to maximize dollar per acre. There's a lot that goes into it if you're trying to turn a profit. But at the end of the day it's about keeping the yield high and the input costs (especially labor) low.
The cannabis boom seems to have been predicated largely on the assumption that it would resemble the high-end wine market, with expensive vintages, "budtenders", etc that can support lots of boutique farms and retailers.
But it looks more like the future will resemble the tobacco industry, with slim profit margins and a handful of conglomerates controlling production. And in reality, for wine as well, LVMH owns many of the most famous upmarket brands and and most wine drinkers stick to the bottom-shelf industrially produced bulk stuff that wholesales for $1/litre.
But it looks more like the future will resemble the tobacco industry, with slim profit margins and a handful of conglomerates controlling production. And in reality, for wine as well, LVMH owns many of the most famous upmarket brands and and most wine drinkers stick to the bottom-shelf industrially produced bulk stuff that wholesales for $1/litre.
Great observation. I think people without a ton of experience with weed fail to appreciate just how different it is compared to alcohol. Back when weed was illegal I used to have a joke I would make with dealers. I would ask them what the strain of the weed I was buying, and usually they would tell me it was some Sour Diesel Purple Hurple Haze Hybrid or whatever (they were making it up on the spot most of the time, I'm sure). And I would then ask "Will it get me high?" and everyone would laugh.
The joke being that these days it's all the same stuff. It's either complete shit weed (which is rare) or high potency modern bud that is all basically interchangeable. I personally have never even been able to detect a real difference between sativa and indica, let alone individual strains. Does some of it taste kind of different...sure? But smoking something or even vaping it is just fundamentally a different experience. It's not food, it's clearly a drug. It's in your mouth for like a second max. Tolerance works differently too, unless you are a daily, habitual user you're not sitting there puffing on a 90% THC weed pen for hours. One puff and you're fucked up. But you can have a glass or two of wine and feel mostly normal, even for someone who doesn't drink often. You can sip on it.
So IMO all of this had led me to the same conclusion as you. The market is headed for complete commoditization in no time. I have a friend who works for Altria and she was saying even 10 years ago they were planning for complete legalization and to dominate the market once it happened. The growing fields were already purchased back then.
The joke being that these days it's all the same stuff. It's either complete shit weed (which is rare) or high potency modern bud that is all basically interchangeable. I personally have never even been able to detect a real difference between sativa and indica, let alone individual strains. Does some of it taste kind of different...sure? But smoking something or even vaping it is just fundamentally a different experience. It's not food, it's clearly a drug. It's in your mouth for like a second max. Tolerance works differently too, unless you are a daily, habitual user you're not sitting there puffing on a 90% THC weed pen for hours. One puff and you're fucked up. But you can have a glass or two of wine and feel mostly normal, even for someone who doesn't drink often. You can sip on it.
So IMO all of this had led me to the same conclusion as you. The market is headed for complete commoditization in no time. I have a friend who works for Altria and she was saying even 10 years ago they were planning for complete legalization and to dominate the market once it happened. The growing fields were already purchased back then.
Maybe it takes some time to get to know the different strains and how they feel. I mean, I cannot tell the difference between different wines because I am not experienced in that, I can mostly say that this is shit wine and this is good wine.
But with this plant, the different strains definitely have different effects, and if you compare a strong indica vs sativa, the effects are very clearly different.
I mean, it is a plant that affects your mind and body, if you spend a lot of time with that you get to recognize the definite differences. The way the grower also handles the plants seem to have a difference, so it can be very sensitive if you have sensitivy for that kind of things.
Personally I agree on that the race to increase THC levels in the plants is not the best way, I mean I would be more happy if there was a race to create balanced strains, instead of trying to maximize the "blast you in the face" high THC buds. Like you said, sipping on good balanced strains is a much better experience at least for me, than just getting blasted to the moon with these modern strains coming near 20-30% THC content and almost no CBD.
But with this plant, the different strains definitely have different effects, and if you compare a strong indica vs sativa, the effects are very clearly different.
I mean, it is a plant that affects your mind and body, if you spend a lot of time with that you get to recognize the definite differences. The way the grower also handles the plants seem to have a difference, so it can be very sensitive if you have sensitivy for that kind of things.
Personally I agree on that the race to increase THC levels in the plants is not the best way, I mean I would be more happy if there was a race to create balanced strains, instead of trying to maximize the "blast you in the face" high THC buds. Like you said, sipping on good balanced strains is a much better experience at least for me, than just getting blasted to the moon with these modern strains coming near 20-30% THC content and almost no CBD.
I would guess that all this focus on strains speaks to the extent to the extent to which pot is just never going to be like wine.
With wine and beer, the ingredient varieties do impact flavor, but, realistically, they have nothing to do with the price a product can command. There's $3/bottle Cab and there's $300/bottle Cab. The difference in price is ostensibly down to the amount of skill that goes into the production of the final product, not just the grape variety.
I have a hard time imagining that can happen to a significant extent with cannabis. I'm guessing there's not as much room for a discerning palate to pick up on and enjoy subtle terroir distinctions in a product that you consume by setting on fire and inhaling the smoke. Nor do I see as much room for artisanal skill to appear in the final product. Making wine involves careful balancing of a variety of factors in order to fine-tune how an active biological process alters the characteristics of the final product. Cannabis? I'm pretty sure the process ranges from drying it and packaging it up in plastic baggies, to tincturing it and mixing the result into candy. I just don't see as much room for fine craftsmanship in either option.
Not saying there's none at all. Just that I have a hard time seeing how there's enough of it to support much of a very high-end luxury niche to the industry the way you see with booze.
Nor do I see it working out like tobacco where you at least have a (small) minority of cigar and pipe smokers who are primarily interested in the flavor of the smoke. But it sounds like cannabis is now so strong that it's difficult to consume any amount of it without becoming intoxicated. Which I would assume makes the development of a proper connoisseur culture around it about as likely as a connoisseur culture around 90% grain alcohol would be.
With wine and beer, the ingredient varieties do impact flavor, but, realistically, they have nothing to do with the price a product can command. There's $3/bottle Cab and there's $300/bottle Cab. The difference in price is ostensibly down to the amount of skill that goes into the production of the final product, not just the grape variety.
I have a hard time imagining that can happen to a significant extent with cannabis. I'm guessing there's not as much room for a discerning palate to pick up on and enjoy subtle terroir distinctions in a product that you consume by setting on fire and inhaling the smoke. Nor do I see as much room for artisanal skill to appear in the final product. Making wine involves careful balancing of a variety of factors in order to fine-tune how an active biological process alters the characteristics of the final product. Cannabis? I'm pretty sure the process ranges from drying it and packaging it up in plastic baggies, to tincturing it and mixing the result into candy. I just don't see as much room for fine craftsmanship in either option.
Not saying there's none at all. Just that I have a hard time seeing how there's enough of it to support much of a very high-end luxury niche to the industry the way you see with booze.
Nor do I see it working out like tobacco where you at least have a (small) minority of cigar and pipe smokers who are primarily interested in the flavor of the smoke. But it sounds like cannabis is now so strong that it's difficult to consume any amount of it without becoming intoxicated. Which I would assume makes the development of a proper connoisseur culture around it about as likely as a connoisseur culture around 90% grain alcohol would be.
Well, who knows, the legalization around the world is still relatively new, and mass markets are being tested, so when for example more of Europe legalizes cannabis also, different and more varied markets are going to come alive.
But for example medicinal cannabis like Bedrocan was developed to be a very clear and non-intoxicating strain, and you can definitely feel the difference in that vs homegrown varieties, so there is definitely an art there that is still to be explored by the big markets.
Who knows, wine and beer industries have existed for so much longer. With cannabis I understand it's the same thing, there is a lot of fine tuning in how you give nutrients, light and the environment, it affects both the taste and the effect. Also indoors vs outdoors has a different effect, so for sure there are a lot of variables in play that can be tuned.
My hope is that slowly the mass legalization will be going towards in giving the people the strains they need, some need more relaxing, some more activating, some more pain nulling and so on.
Also, smoking is not the best way anymore, vaporizing or eating is the most efficient way. High quality vaporizers the effect is much more medicinal, than smoking it, same way is when you eat it.
Maybe you have not tested a high quality vaporizer? with those the flavor and effect is much more clear, the smoking gives you an intoxicating effect from jus t inhaling smoke into your lungs. With a high quality medical cannabis and vaporizer, the effect is very medicinal, it can be almost non-intoxicating especially when used for a longer period of time.
Too bad this stuff is still illegal in many places. The illegality has most probably been driving the need to pack a lot of punch into as small amount of weed as possible, hopefully the legalization process will lead into more milder variants and strains being developed.
But for example medicinal cannabis like Bedrocan was developed to be a very clear and non-intoxicating strain, and you can definitely feel the difference in that vs homegrown varieties, so there is definitely an art there that is still to be explored by the big markets.
Who knows, wine and beer industries have existed for so much longer. With cannabis I understand it's the same thing, there is a lot of fine tuning in how you give nutrients, light and the environment, it affects both the taste and the effect. Also indoors vs outdoors has a different effect, so for sure there are a lot of variables in play that can be tuned.
My hope is that slowly the mass legalization will be going towards in giving the people the strains they need, some need more relaxing, some more activating, some more pain nulling and so on.
Also, smoking is not the best way anymore, vaporizing or eating is the most efficient way. High quality vaporizers the effect is much more medicinal, than smoking it, same way is when you eat it.
Maybe you have not tested a high quality vaporizer? with those the flavor and effect is much more clear, the smoking gives you an intoxicating effect from jus t inhaling smoke into your lungs. With a high quality medical cannabis and vaporizer, the effect is very medicinal, it can be almost non-intoxicating especially when used for a longer period of time.
Too bad this stuff is still illegal in many places. The illegality has most probably been driving the need to pack a lot of punch into as small amount of weed as possible, hopefully the legalization process will lead into more milder variants and strains being developed.
I've smoked almost daily for over 30 years. Can't tell any difference whatsoever between sativa and indica. It's routine now going into one of these fancy weed places and having them ask me this first and I have to find some way to politely say 'yeah, they're no different for me, sorry'. The junk science around weed is so cringey.
Well, have you considered that the daily smoking has made you numb to the effects, or your tolerance is so high that you don't anymore feel the effect ?
I get more number to the effect also while tolerance develops, I can only imagine what happens after 30 years. I definitely don't use weed daily, it would kill my productivity completely, but when I do after long periods of being sober, the sativa vs indica difference is so clear that seems pretty silly to even discuss about this.
I get more number to the effect also while tolerance develops, I can only imagine what happens after 30 years. I definitely don't use weed daily, it would kill my productivity completely, but when I do after long periods of being sober, the sativa vs indica difference is so clear that seems pretty silly to even discuss about this.
Yeah, I actually find it pretty unbelievable that even in legal states where the business has been around over a decade, you still get these pseudoscientific claims about potency or effects. I wonder when the industry will "grow up" (no pun intended).
> I personally have never even been able to detect a real difference between sativa and indica, let alone individual strains
This is interesting to hear because I have the opposite experience. I used to have really bad anxiety and weed was (and still can be) a trigger for it. I took a few years off weed and only starting trying it again since legalization in Canada (and now Thailand). I have definitely noticed that I feel best on something that is under 20% THC, with at least 1% CBD. I also am doing more experimenting with different terpenes and am pretty sure that also has an effect on how it makes me feel - limonene for example seems to be the best for getting the "euphoric" high. This makes sense as there is some research to indicate that terpenes from other plants (such as lavender) can have a positive impact on anxiety.
In terms of indica vs sativa however, I do think the distinction is largely overblown (from what I have read) and those are usually just proxies for the cannabinoid ratios (with sativa usually being higher THC etc and indica higher CBD etc.)
So from my experience and from what we have seen with coffee and beer I can agree that we will see commercialization first (like the Starbucks and Molson/Coors era) but I think that as weed becomes more normalized and more people get a feel for the differences in strains, preparations etc. we will see a shift back towards more "craft"/small farm interests like we have seen with beer and coffee in the last few years.
This is interesting to hear because I have the opposite experience. I used to have really bad anxiety and weed was (and still can be) a trigger for it. I took a few years off weed and only starting trying it again since legalization in Canada (and now Thailand). I have definitely noticed that I feel best on something that is under 20% THC, with at least 1% CBD. I also am doing more experimenting with different terpenes and am pretty sure that also has an effect on how it makes me feel - limonene for example seems to be the best for getting the "euphoric" high. This makes sense as there is some research to indicate that terpenes from other plants (such as lavender) can have a positive impact on anxiety.
In terms of indica vs sativa however, I do think the distinction is largely overblown (from what I have read) and those are usually just proxies for the cannabinoid ratios (with sativa usually being higher THC etc and indica higher CBD etc.)
So from my experience and from what we have seen with coffee and beer I can agree that we will see commercialization first (like the Starbucks and Molson/Coors era) but I think that as weed becomes more normalized and more people get a feel for the differences in strains, preparations etc. we will see a shift back towards more "craft"/small farm interests like we have seen with beer and coffee in the last few years.
It's a great point that the cannabinoid ratio has a dramatic effect on the high. Ever since high CBD:THC oils became available in cartridge form, I personally switched ratios in the 15-25:1 range. This is like 2% THC, but likewise I find I get all the benefits of smoking "regular" weed or high potency carts without feeling uncomfortably high or anxious at any point. You can "sip" it. I think finding your preference along this product dimension will definitely become more of a thing, because the difference is real. And while I don't have a favorite terpene or anything, more differentiation there feels plausible too.
That said, I still think the big difference between coffee/wine and weed is that finding your optimal drug dosage is a fundamentally different human experience to tasting food and drink. Imagine if all alcohol tasted the same and the only differentiator was the exact type of drunk it made you. It's hard to imagine the same sort of culture emerging, where people are flying to foreign countries to taste wine or lining up outside their favorite brewery for new beers. Flavors are subjective, same as drug effects, but they are also sharable. You can hand someone a glass of wine and ask what they think. You can't hand someone your sense of reality and ask them if they are tripping out in the same way.
Tobacco really is a great comparison, eg. cigarettes likewise claim to compete on taste/subjective factors like "smoothness", but in reality nobody is hunting down 2012 Vintage Marlboros. Maybe an analogy to the high end cigar market could emerge? A product variant intended for less habitual, slower but more refined enjoyment?
That said, I still think the big difference between coffee/wine and weed is that finding your optimal drug dosage is a fundamentally different human experience to tasting food and drink. Imagine if all alcohol tasted the same and the only differentiator was the exact type of drunk it made you. It's hard to imagine the same sort of culture emerging, where people are flying to foreign countries to taste wine or lining up outside their favorite brewery for new beers. Flavors are subjective, same as drug effects, but they are also sharable. You can hand someone a glass of wine and ask what they think. You can't hand someone your sense of reality and ask them if they are tripping out in the same way.
Tobacco really is a great comparison, eg. cigarettes likewise claim to compete on taste/subjective factors like "smoothness", but in reality nobody is hunting down 2012 Vintage Marlboros. Maybe an analogy to the high end cigar market could emerge? A product variant intended for less habitual, slower but more refined enjoyment?
I haven't ventured much into the high CBD territory yet. I'm going to see what I can find when I am back in Thailand in March but might have to wait to be back in Canada as Thailand medicinal is still very early days.
> and those are usually just proxies for the cannabinoid ratios (with sativa usually being higher THC etc and indica higher CBD etc.)
As a medical user in the UK, I don't believe this to be the case - I believe these terms are more like proxies for the terpenes than the cannabinoids; you can have two strains with the same cannabinoid content, yet they can have completely different effects.
As a medical user in the UK, I don't believe this to be the case - I believe these terms are more like proxies for the terpenes than the cannabinoids; you can have two strains with the same cannabinoid content, yet they can have completely different effects.
> I believe these terms are more like proxies for the terpenes than the cannabinoids
Do you have some info on what terps tend to be associated with sativa and which with indica? This is an interesting point if there seems to be a pattern!
Do you have some info on what terps tend to be associated with sativa and which with indica? This is an interesting point if there seems to be a pattern!
Unfortunately in the UK medical market, clinics/dispensaries/growers don't have to provide patients with terpene profiles. Still, some CoAs (Certificates of Analysis) are made available, and the rest you can sometimes figure out from the likes of Leafly.
For me, I'd say terpinolene, limonene and pinene tend to be dominant in the stimulating sativas I've had, where caryophyllene and myrcene take their place in indicas.
But it's no simple challenge, as non-dominant terpenes exert an influence too - and there can be dozens of them. And just to make it an even harder problem, it also seems to vary to some degree from person to person.
I seem to recall seeing Leafly's data in Kaggle, might be worth a look if you want to dig in!
For me, I'd say terpinolene, limonene and pinene tend to be dominant in the stimulating sativas I've had, where caryophyllene and myrcene take their place in indicas.
But it's no simple challenge, as non-dominant terpenes exert an influence too - and there can be dozens of them. And just to make it an even harder problem, it also seems to vary to some degree from person to person.
I seem to recall seeing Leafly's data in Kaggle, might be worth a look if you want to dig in!
I don’t want to come off as pedantic disagreeing here but as a degenerate pot smoker for the last 15 years I definitely can tell the difference. I actually never understood wine tasting and it’s subtleties until I started picking up on the same notes in my herbs.
Sure, back in the day lots of stuff was made up. But now I genuinely do get a different taste and high depending on the strain and I can usually tell the difference between certain kinds. Also, for very popular buds like Sour D I can ID by the smell alone. In the end it is just different terps, I know. And while I prefer Indica (“in-da-couch”) I do recognize some of the different effects could simply be psychological and not physical. Alas, I am big fan of medical grade sensi and the sincere peace it brings to my life (it is a boon for treating seizures). Anywho, just my two cents, have a good one!
Sure, back in the day lots of stuff was made up. But now I genuinely do get a different taste and high depending on the strain and I can usually tell the difference between certain kinds. Also, for very popular buds like Sour D I can ID by the smell alone. In the end it is just different terps, I know. And while I prefer Indica (“in-da-couch”) I do recognize some of the different effects could simply be psychological and not physical. Alas, I am big fan of medical grade sensi and the sincere peace it brings to my life (it is a boon for treating seizures). Anywho, just my two cents, have a good one!
You can "sip" on a vape regardless of produce potency. Set the temperature to 185°C and suck gently, turning it off as soon as you taste it. Then vibe for a moment and get a feel. Increase temp by +2 degrees and repeat. This precisely avoids getting fucked up from one puff, and allows you to enjoy the gradual intoxication.
CBD, the calming, antipsychotic compound vaporizes at a lower temperature than THC, the compound that gets you high. At 185°C you're getting mostly a bodily soothe, while 230°C has you hitting the deck and spaceing out.
CBD, the calming, antipsychotic compound vaporizes at a lower temperature than THC, the compound that gets you high. At 185°C you're getting mostly a bodily soothe, while 230°C has you hitting the deck and spaceing out.
That's what the venture capital involved seemed to expect anyway. There was a VC bubble for the industry, and some really crazy brands were showing up. Brands where you could buy your weed along side an order for a $15,000 dollar leather horse saddle, golden glassware, crystal ash trays or other expensive trinkets. Farm tours and taste testings emulated the wine industry to a tee. They were 100% banking on a premium clientelle. Does such a clientelle actually exist in enough quantity to support that industry though I wonder? Surely there was market research showing it might?
>Surely there was market research showing it might?
Yeah of course, it was done along side the crypto due-diligence
Yeah of course, it was done along side the crypto due-diligence
There are high-end weed products out there. High quality wax, concentrates, and edibles for discerning customers exists. Certain dispensaries also specialize in higher quality product. I enjoy many of these myself as legal weed in my area is still much cheaper than alcohol and I prefer the product.
Wine has had a stable market for centuries with products aimed at many customer segments, high and low quality segments included. Weed is just beginning, and the biggest customer segment by aggregate demand will be the undiscerning customer. Thinking otherwise is silly IMO.
Wine has had a stable market for centuries with products aimed at many customer segments, high and low quality segments included. Weed is just beginning, and the biggest customer segment by aggregate demand will be the undiscerning customer. Thinking otherwise is silly IMO.
>discerning
I have serious gripes with the high end market in the dispensary. For example, Stiizy will sell you a gram of distillate in a cartridge for $60. It's the exact same product as the one being sold in that same dispensary for $20 from a brand with less instagram presence. Distillate is pretty much commoditized. Also the entire $60 1/8th market is absurd to me, it seemingly exists for people who assume price means quality because at the end of the day, its not significantly different than the stuff being sold for less than half as much, but it might come in a nice glass jar with a sexy lid instead of an opaque plastic bag.
Then if you start growing yourself its like seeing the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, with how much excellent weed you can produce in a few months with little investment or effort beyond what you'd do for a tomato plant. It will honestly look better too being hand trimmed and cured versus trimmed by a trim bag facing whatever the commercial growers do to cure it into a tiny, dry rock hard nug (probably good for scaling the process but its ugly to me).
I guess you can say this is true for just about any luxury product though. There are people that say wild turky or knob creek is a lot better than much more expensive whisky some people chase after.
I have serious gripes with the high end market in the dispensary. For example, Stiizy will sell you a gram of distillate in a cartridge for $60. It's the exact same product as the one being sold in that same dispensary for $20 from a brand with less instagram presence. Distillate is pretty much commoditized. Also the entire $60 1/8th market is absurd to me, it seemingly exists for people who assume price means quality because at the end of the day, its not significantly different than the stuff being sold for less than half as much, but it might come in a nice glass jar with a sexy lid instead of an opaque plastic bag.
Then if you start growing yourself its like seeing the man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, with how much excellent weed you can produce in a few months with little investment or effort beyond what you'd do for a tomato plant. It will honestly look better too being hand trimmed and cured versus trimmed by a trim bag facing whatever the commercial growers do to cure it into a tiny, dry rock hard nug (probably good for scaling the process but its ugly to me).
I guess you can say this is true for just about any luxury product though. There are people that say wild turky or knob creek is a lot better than much more expensive whisky some people chase after.
Hah yeah these complaints are pretty similar to other luxury markets. I've always found Stiizy products to be more brand than actual substance. I'm also into coffee and roast my own beans and the same things apply to the coffee market. My home coffee roasts are similar quality to 3-4x more expensive bags of coffee at specialty roasters. I can even buy cups of coffee there which is still 2-3x more expensive than a cup of coffee I can brew at home with the specialty beans I bought already roasted. It's just how luxury works, it's some mix of quality, branding, and finding a customer segment willing to pay the markup to not do it themselves.
Massive fraud as well even from legit actors, stiizy for example is being sued for faking lab results
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2022/12/08/698377...
This brings questions up about contaminants for me
Raw garden too has been sued in a class action suit over terpenes misrep.
I agree be the wizard and make your own potions.
https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2022/12/08/698377...
This brings questions up about contaminants for me
Raw garden too has been sued in a class action suit over terpenes misrep.
I agree be the wizard and make your own potions.
I am not sure what state you live in but $60 for an 1/8 is way above what one could expect to pay for "top shelf" bud here in Washington. But then again we currently have a "weed surplus" and it seems every store has a 30% sale off twice per week.
I am in Socal. Sure theres a wide range, something like is typical at just about every dispensary here but this is from just one dispensary:
$73 3.5g testing at 22% https://embed.getmeadow.com/organizations/1328/products/1176...
$20 3.5 testing at 32% https://embed.getmeadow.com/organizations/1328/products/8834...
MedMen is even worse with their top shelf prices, you probably won't find any $20 1/8th there and I keep a wide berth of those places myself.
$73 3.5g testing at 22% https://embed.getmeadow.com/organizations/1328/products/1176...
$20 3.5 testing at 32% https://embed.getmeadow.com/organizations/1328/products/8834...
MedMen is even worse with their top shelf prices, you probably won't find any $20 1/8th there and I keep a wide berth of those places myself.
High-end tobacco exists as well, and you can also pay hundreds for a Cohiba cigar or a carton of Chunghwa cigarettes, but for the vast majority of smokers out there Marlboro is about as fancy as it gets.
> The cannabis boom seems to have been predicated largely on the assumption that it would resemble the high-end wine market, with expensive vintages, "budtenders", etc that can support lots of boutique farms and retailers.
I don't feel like founders, employers, consumers or anybody standing nearby ever believed that.
But founders had to convince investors.
I don't feel like founders, employers, consumers or anybody standing nearby ever believed that.
But founders had to convince investors.
The difference between pretty good weed and the best weed is irrelevent when you throw the bud into your grinder, unless you are buying moonrocks (kind of like battering fried chicken, the bud is dipped in high thc% oil then kief). It's not like a whisky where you get this whole tasting experience and can taste the wood of the barrel it sat in; to my tongue at least smoke is smoke unless its the terrible brick weed that I have not seen in 15 years. Even then with so much excess product being produced by growers, moonrocks would not be expensive to produce.
Smoke is smoke, but vapor is not vapor.
You can taste a lot more when you stop burning the plant and I think that's where the industry needs to go if it wants to develop that way
You can taste a lot more when you stop burning the plant and I think that's where the industry needs to go if it wants to develop that way
There's not a great vaporizer product for dry herb unfortunately that doesn't cost hundreds, plus they are mostly "session style" vaporizers where you preheat an oven and are expected to vape it all or else a lot is wasted. There's the vapecap and copies that are more "on demand" like a normal pipe, where you use a butane torch to heat up the device each hit, but they don't work well for people with a higher tolerance and take quite a bit of technique from what I've read. With my experience with a pax too, these things are picky about being perfectly clean or the taste will change, the airflow will be poor, and the switch for it will be gunked to the point the device can't even turn on if its not stored standing straight up at all times. I was also disappointed with reddit's favorite the mflb which has a few inherent flaws (batteries degrade fast and its just not nearly as strong as smoking for whatever reason).
It seems like a market ripe for disruption to be honest, the undisputed king among non portable vaporizers at least is still the volcano vaporizer which came out over 25 years ago. I think that's why distillate cartridges are so popular, because they avoid all these issues dry herb vapes seem unable to work around. They don't smell very much at all compared to a dry herb vape, they are cheap, they have no maintenance issues or learning curve, and they are on and off with a click of a button.
It seems like a market ripe for disruption to be honest, the undisputed king among non portable vaporizers at least is still the volcano vaporizer which came out over 25 years ago. I think that's why distillate cartridges are so popular, because they avoid all these issues dry herb vapes seem unable to work around. They don't smell very much at all compared to a dry herb vape, they are cheap, they have no maintenance issues or learning curve, and they are on and off with a click of a button.
I can recommend the Storz & Bickel 'Mighty' (by same makers as the Volcano) — perhaps plus a pack of spare parts / accessories (so one can postpone cleaning of the cooling / top part of the unit).
Although, sure, it is expensive, as you say, but it's very good. And no matter how gunked up the top cooling part of the unit might get, it will never not turn on/off. I don't find the maintenance of the unit to be a big deal (particularly having an extra top /etc), but as always with such things, YMMV.
Although, sure, it is expensive, as you say, but it's very good. And no matter how gunked up the top cooling part of the unit might get, it will never not turn on/off. I don't find the maintenance of the unit to be a big deal (particularly having an extra top /etc), but as always with such things, YMMV.
The volcanoe from storz and bickel was great for a time. But not ideal for health.
The problem with these types of vaporizers is that they can inadvertantly introduce contaminents to the body. This is largely fungal and bacterial matter that can infect the lungs as it is not destroyed fully in the heating process.
Be careful even with tested weed.
The problem with these types of vaporizers is that they can inadvertantly introduce contaminents to the body. This is largely fungal and bacterial matter that can infect the lungs as it is not destroyed fully in the heating process.
Be careful even with tested weed.
The Airizer Air Max is an incredible solution for on-the-go vaping, but unfortunately not exactly cheap.
I spent about 4 years actively growing weed before it was "legal." in San Francisco.
Because mine was indoor/soil/organic and didn't require driving up to Ukiah or waiting for the outdoor harvests, I got the same premium rates for it that are noted in the article.
As soon as I realized that weed was eventually going legal, I stopped entirely because I could see the writing on the wall. It was becoming commoditized to the point where it was impossible to compete. Too much money was being thrown at it.
Articles like this are zero surprise.
Because mine was indoor/soil/organic and didn't require driving up to Ukiah or waiting for the outdoor harvests, I got the same premium rates for it that are noted in the article.
As soon as I realized that weed was eventually going legal, I stopped entirely because I could see the writing on the wall. It was becoming commoditized to the point where it was impossible to compete. Too much money was being thrown at it.
Articles like this are zero surprise.
I remember reading something years back that applying modern large scale ag technology to cannabis was never a technical hurdle, merely a legal one, and how much cheaper it would be once the well-capitalized giants got ahold of it and came to pretty much the same conclusion. It did make for a neat trip through Colorado in 2017 when it was still pretty novel though.
It actually is a technical hurdle because not a lot of academic research is being done on it for commercial growers to use. You see some papers out there that cover things like yield per light spectrum or what soil ammendments do for terpene content, but they all come out of Canada and specifically McGill. It's like U.S. researchers are blackballed by their institutions or maybe their grant funding agencies. As such, techniques like plant tissue culture that are commonly done with other crops and expensive ornamentals in the U.S. are rarely done with cannabis because growers that do these techniques are often tight lipped about things such as the most ideal media composition or really anything else related to methodology.
Meanwhile with crops such as corn, you have entire land grant universities planting test crops as we speak and biology departments dedicated to maize genetics, and thats true for almost every other large commercial crop. Billions are spent on research by the federal and state governments. Agriculture takes advantage of all of this research and development when producing commercial crops, but none of this investment is being made for cannabis and when it is done by these private companies they are not proliferating their findings.
Meanwhile with crops such as corn, you have entire land grant universities planting test crops as we speak and biology departments dedicated to maize genetics, and thats true for almost every other large commercial crop. Billions are spent on research by the federal and state governments. Agriculture takes advantage of all of this research and development when producing commercial crops, but none of this investment is being made for cannabis and when it is done by these private companies they are not proliferating their findings.
"As such, techniques like plant tissue culture that are commonly done with other crops and expensive ornamentals in the U.S. are rarely done with cannabis because growers that do these techniques are often tight lipped about things such as the most ideal media composition or really anything else related to methodology."
There are so many cannabis forums on the internet (I used to be on the top 5 waaaaay back in the day) that you can find tons of research and tips on various culture methods. Right down to micro-sample cloning techniques.
There are so many cannabis forums on the internet (I used to be on the top 5 waaaaay back in the day) that you can find tons of research and tips on various culture methods. Right down to micro-sample cloning techniques.
From what I understand, the current classification in the US is what stops a lot of the research. Also, if you can get past that, you have to use crappy weed from the federal government that isn't representative of what people are consuming. I don't have any references available, though.
Corn feeds millions of people and animals. Pot? It doesn’t feed anyone. So I can understand the funding disparity.
It's not so much as a disparity as the funding is simply nonexistent. Pot doesn't feed anyone of course, but its legitimate medicine.
The value to society of pot vs corn is where you should look to see why government funding doesn’t match your expectations.
There's plenty of value for pot in society, for some people it means they no longer are dependent on opioids for example. That being said, the Canadian government thinks this is worthy to fund, grant support for cannabis research can come from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, and because of this the bulk of the literature in recent years is published by researchers in Canadian universities.
But finding and better understanding its value to society is precisely what the funding is needed for.
Despite the name 'weed'... it is actually a very complex plant to grow well and with the highest output. I propagated the best cuttings, from the same strain and the plant morphed over the years. Far stronger at the end than when I started. But it also became oddly harder to grow, the same techniques that I was using, didn't work over time despite a relatively controlled growing environment.
It is a fascinating plant.
It is a fascinating plant.
In Michigan now that its legal the prices have plummeted. I just saw a place advertising $100 for 2 full ounces for new recreation customers. Thats an insane deal. I'm sure its not the best stuff but its a shocking amount.
I mean $100 for 2 ounces of the marijuana plant in particular isn't cheap at all. There are some 'mild' complications in growing it, but in theory it should end up more like a bulk farming product where we talk about dollars per pound on the retail side, and dollars per ton on the wholesale side.
Wild to not consider that cheap! In Ohio, with a med card, you will pay over $300 for 1.
It's cheap for weed, but expensive for a relatively high-volume part of a relatively easy-to-grow plant. Imagine seeing an $800/pound price tag in the produce section of your grocery store.
There's a reason why there are dispensaries for ohioans set up just across the michigan border.
I believe the acceptable mold level in Michigan is 10x that of Ohio. Price is only one component, many people like a tightly regulated medical market to ensure safety.
If it were at a sufficient level for people to start getting sick you'd expect to see an increase in people with related issues, but you don't when you seek out news on this factoid, just a statement on the level being higher than in another place. Most products you consume will have at least some mold on them.
Or the tight regulation produces higher prices without any particular improvement to the product (e.g. taxi medallions). “tightly regulated” != “better”
>I mean $100 for 2 ounces of the marijuana plant in particular isn't cheap at all.
Where are prices so low that $100 for 2 ounces "isn't cheap at all"?
Where are prices so low that $100 for 2 ounces "isn't cheap at all"?
It’s cheap but not that cheap depending on quality. “Cheap quality” deals around WA and OR can be as low as $35/oz
[deleted]
Canada ;)
Where I live 2 ounces would be around 750-900$ (converted roughly to usd).
Its also illegal.
Its also illegal.
In Illinois the opposite has happened. Been legal for going on 3 years now and an mid quality ounce goes for $300-400 minimum. 1 gram carts retail for $60 plus taxes bringing it to an easy 80. I just drive to Michigan now since the prices there are 4x lower, but the black market is doing quite well here since the number of smokers has increased and prices are half for similar quality flower.
I can buy ounces all day in Portland for $20. Is it Jesus incarnate? Nope. Is it perfectly good sinsemilla that gets ya high? Yup.
Where? I live in Portland and would love to try a $20 ounce.
Seconded. I'm not gonna argue that it's not cheap here, but $20 for an ounce is way too low to be true. Unless, of course, it's far worse than "Jesus incarnate".
looking at weedmaps, there are a few places with 1 oz in the $20s.
$25 FA Ranch Mangolicious at Electric Lettuce [1]
$28 Blueberry Muffin at Floyd's Fine Cannabis [2]
if you're willing to travel, $20.83 Pineapple Upsidedown Cake at THClear [3]
[1] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/electric-lettuce-northeast...
[2] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/floyd-s-fine-cannabis-on-w...
[3] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/thclear-lebanon/menu/park-...
$25 FA Ranch Mangolicious at Electric Lettuce [1]
$28 Blueberry Muffin at Floyd's Fine Cannabis [2]
if you're willing to travel, $20.83 Pineapple Upsidedown Cake at THClear [3]
[1] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/electric-lettuce-northeast...
[2] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/floyd-s-fine-cannabis-on-w...
[3] https://weedmaps.com/dispensaries/thclear-lebanon/menu/park-...
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And the revolution will be corporatized.
Once the federal level stuff gets sorted out, you think ma and pop growers will be able to compete with big tobacco or some other outfit? This is a dependency-forming market opportunity. It's likely a 10s of billions market, maybe hundreds. Alcohol is 287 billion per year.
I guess the only good news is that cannabis is a lot easier to self-produce than tobacco.
And once they figure out how to get nicotine into cannabis...
Once the federal level stuff gets sorted out, you think ma and pop growers will be able to compete with big tobacco or some other outfit? This is a dependency-forming market opportunity. It's likely a 10s of billions market, maybe hundreds. Alcohol is 287 billion per year.
I guess the only good news is that cannabis is a lot easier to self-produce than tobacco.
And once they figure out how to get nicotine into cannabis...
I'm not sure what your operation was but I think there is still a market for your crop. There's plenty of weed in the dispensary, yes, but its taxed sometimes 30%. You get what you think is a cheap oz of weed but its in a sealed bag, and when you open it up it does the job sure according to THC % but its all that shake and larf and ugly stuff that comes from the trim bag and rock hard cure style of prep commercial growers do. There's a reason why the grey market remains so huge.
I'm very long out of the business, it is several lifetimes ago for me, which is why I'm comfortable talking about it now.
Grey market at scale is a pain in the ass, and risky. You need people to buy pounds at a time, in cash. A big bag for a big bag.
You basically need to set up a supply chain that you can trust... this is why the DEA a lot of the time finds weapons with drugs.
So yea... growing for friends is easy... growing to make a living, is a real pain in the ass.
Grey market at scale is a pain in the ass, and risky. You need people to buy pounds at a time, in cash. A big bag for a big bag.
You basically need to set up a supply chain that you can trust... this is why the DEA a lot of the time finds weapons with drugs.
So yea... growing for friends is easy... growing to make a living, is a real pain in the ass.
I've had the exact opposite experience with recreational stores. A wide selection of accurately labelled and high quality products, instead of just a bag of weed that's way too strong for me, like the black market primarily provides. It's a million times more convenient and not much more expensive overall (unless you buy some premium products maybe).
[deleted]
Fact #1: It's so easy to produce large quantities of good quality cannabis if you know what you're doing. Just need sunshine, water, soil, and fertilizer, no need to spend much money at all.
Fact #2: The thing that made cannabis expensive was it's illegality. The difficulty in growing cannabis was that it had to be done in secret, and you could go to jail if you got caught.
Now if you put these facts together, you realize that legalization means there's no more justification for ridiculous prices on a plant that's easy to grow. The only winners in the "green rush" are the established dispensaries, and the prices will continue to drop as more states legalize marijuana.
The major black market producers are against legalization because they know it destroys their profits. An odd case where cops, criminals and pharmaceutical companies all share a common goal.
Fact #2: The thing that made cannabis expensive was it's illegality. The difficulty in growing cannabis was that it had to be done in secret, and you could go to jail if you got caught.
Now if you put these facts together, you realize that legalization means there's no more justification for ridiculous prices on a plant that's easy to grow. The only winners in the "green rush" are the established dispensaries, and the prices will continue to drop as more states legalize marijuana.
The major black market producers are against legalization because they know it destroys their profits. An odd case where cops, criminals and pharmaceutical companies all share a common goal.
It’s not that odd of a case. The incentives line up. LEOs get to seize drug money, property, and other assets related to drugs without due process.
For pharma and criminals it’s the exact same reason; the laws create an economic moat.
For pharma and criminals it’s the exact same reason; the laws create an economic moat.
"so easy" is proportional to "if you know what you're doing"
This reminds me of the strawberry growers here in Australia, QLD. Many farmers switched to strawberries and the market was flooded for one season. They were literally selling them by the kilo when previously punnets (250g) were 3-5 dollars each.
Lots of farmers switched to other more stable crops. The big players stayed and the small farmers producing high quality fruit continued.
The market stabilizing. Interesting times.
Lots of farmers switched to other more stable crops. The big players stayed and the small farmers producing high quality fruit continued.
The market stabilizing. Interesting times.
Off topic. I've been appalled at how tasteless store-bought strawberries in the U.S. have become. I don't know happened, a change in cultivar? 12 years ago I could buy flavorful strawberries in the U.S., today I cannot. I hope they have more flavor in AU.
Many varieties were replaced with the "Camarosa", which is now the default grocery-store berry. Here's an article from the change-over:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-21-mn-61072-...
[edited to add: see also: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/interesting-chandler-strawberr... -- but there are a lot of astroturf pieces out there also]
Camarosa ships well (high firmness), but the taste really isn't there.
That replacement was more of a circa-2000 thing. Perhaps the further decline since then has been due to relocation of berry production even farther away from U.S. markets (e.g., in Mexico or Central America).
You can still get the other varieties from local producers, at least where I live in southern California. The taste difference is enormous, it's worth going to a farmer's market just for the berries.
Same kind of thing has happened with tomatoes.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-04-21-mn-61072-...
[edited to add: see also: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/interesting-chandler-strawberr... -- but there are a lot of astroturf pieces out there also]
Camarosa ships well (high firmness), but the taste really isn't there.
That replacement was more of a circa-2000 thing. Perhaps the further decline since then has been due to relocation of berry production even farther away from U.S. markets (e.g., in Mexico or Central America).
You can still get the other varieties from local producers, at least where I live in southern California. The taste difference is enormous, it's worth going to a farmer's market just for the berries.
Same kind of thing has happened with tomatoes.
JS-free archive link: https://archive.ph/xdkfC
Because consumers in the US buy on size and appearance and not taste.
We'll buy a pint of massive, red, perfect looking berries that have zero flavor before we'll buy a smaller, dented berry that has the best flavor on the planet. Add to that the berries tend to be picked green and shipped long distances and you have the perfect maelstrom for the next 'red delicious' debacle.
We'll buy a pint of massive, red, perfect looking berries that have zero flavor before we'll buy a smaller, dented berry that has the best flavor on the planet. Add to that the berries tend to be picked green and shipped long distances and you have the perfect maelstrom for the next 'red delicious' debacle.
> Because consumers in the US buy on size and appearance and not taste.
They buy on size and appearance signals that, within familiar varieties, correlate very strongly with taste, because you can't taste offerings in the store to choose which to buy.
This is then exploited by the commercial supply chain in a way which proves Goodhart’s Law.
They buy on size and appearance signals that, within familiar varieties, correlate very strongly with taste, because you can't taste offerings in the store to choose which to buy.
This is then exploited by the commercial supply chain in a way which proves Goodhart’s Law.
> This is then exploited by the commercial supply chain in a way which proves Goodhart’s Law.
That's a very interesting example of Goodhart's Law in action, and one that broadens the circumstances when I think about it applying. Thanks.
That's a very interesting example of Goodhart's Law in action, and one that broadens the circumstances when I think about it applying. Thanks.
[deleted]
Give people some credit here. If you took an heirloom strawberry and put it through the wringer of shipping it to idaho in the dead of winter, it will be moldy jam by the end. Farmers markets have heirlooms but just take a look at them: the tomatoes at the bottom of the pile will be all crushed by the ones at the top because this cultivar is not selected for its tensile strength when sitting in a pile in the produce section.
Well most costumers don't buy according to taste because you either can't taste it and compare it in commercial stores, or they don't have much of a choice. A more traditional market or farmers market is a different situation where someone might offer to let you try one or a piece of their fruit knowing their competitions fruit are tasteless and gain customers. In a walmart you can label your fruit as delicious or something, but so can the competition, and you can't really refute it until after they already bought them.
Not sure why this was downvoted. Across the world it is absolutely the case that we optimise for shelf-life and appearance over taste. This becomes especially obvious when you grow your own tomatoes from seed.
I think it's actually even worse than that. You're suggesting that people accept a lesser taste in exchange for the other benefits. As if this is a conscious decision.
I think people don't really taste with any attention at all. They eat in a rush, preoccupied, and the ingredients may be mashed together into some mix. As long as something isn't incredibly off, they'll not consider it a "lesser" taste, this is just how a strawberry tastes.
...until you take the time to demonstrate the vastly superior taste.
I think people don't really taste with any attention at all. They eat in a rush, preoccupied, and the ingredients may be mashed together into some mix. As long as something isn't incredibly off, they'll not consider it a "lesser" taste, this is just how a strawberry tastes.
...until you take the time to demonstrate the vastly superior taste.
BTW, if you haven't tried wild strawberries, I would highly recommend. They are not super sweet, but they have very strong, concentrated flavor, much more so than regular strawberries. Seems to be largely unknown in US, unfortunately?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_vesca
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragaria_vesca
Maybe coming from afar and picked when they're green? Local strawberries in the summer are great, just like local tomatoes. The rest of the year it's much harder to get either one in any variety I can stomach.
If you have the money, take a trip to Japan and you can try the best strawberries in the world. Only $500 each!
https://strawberryplants.org/japanese-strawberry-growing-sec...
https://strawberryplants.org/japanese-strawberry-growing-sec...
This company [0] is producing vertically grown strawberries with insanely high sugar content. They're apparently very good, but I haven't been willing to spend $15 on 6 strawberries.
0: https://oishii.com
0: https://oishii.com
When do you buy them? Where I live in Canada there are two options, big tasteless imported (from down south) stuff that's available year round, or tasty local half-the-size stuff that is only available for a few weeks once a year.
Besides farmers' markets, which the others have mentioned, there are smaller produce markets in a lot of areas (they tend to be in strip malls, at least near me). Their whole shtick is having good produce, including berries.
Try getting some Mara de Bois bare root strawberries. I plant them in old paper bags filled with soil and leave them outside.
Sadly the vast majority do not..
And that happened with avocados this year
Avocados take 10 years to start producing. Strawberries are available that growing season. Any wild drop in avocado prices I'd imagine would have to be something changing in the economic playing field (unless it is just a ten year delay from a jump in tree planting).
The Mexican cartels have been squeezing avocado farmers, there is an episode on Rotten (Netflix, I think) about it. Any price swinging makes me wonder how the cartels may have been involved.
The Mexican cartels have been squeezing avocado farmers, there is an episode on Rotten (Netflix, I think) about it. Any price swinging makes me wonder how the cartels may have been involved.
They're out of the weed business so like any corporation, they're pivoting to cocaine, human trafficking, and shakedowns on avocado farmers.
One of the things I've noticed living in both CA and MA is that a lot of retail marijuana shops appear to be run by first-time business owners. In many cases, these businesses just don't appear to have the kind of discipline to be sustainable. They have weird marketing, oddball names, and unprofessional customer service.
I once went to a cannibas "church" in San Jose, CA, where they told me I could smoke up in their parking lot, directly in view of a residential neighborhood. Another time I called a dispensary to verify that they were open, and a super-stoned person answered the phone and immediately went into a monologue about how to get to the store.
I've never been to a liquor store where the help is visibly drunk or encourages drinking on their property.
I once went to a cannibas "church" in San Jose, CA, where they told me I could smoke up in their parking lot, directly in view of a residential neighborhood. Another time I called a dispensary to verify that they were open, and a super-stoned person answered the phone and immediately went into a monologue about how to get to the store.
I've never been to a liquor store where the help is visibly drunk or encourages drinking on their property.
that analogy is no more applicable than saying my barista enjoys coffee.
alcohol and weed are not directly comparable.
(i would also posit that many servers and bartenders do in fact enjoy the devil's juice on the clock)
alcohol and weed are not directly comparable.
(i would also posit that many servers and bartenders do in fact enjoy the devil's juice on the clock)
> I've never been to a liquor store where the help is visibly drunk or encourages drinking on their property.
Note the emphasis. A lot of people can moderate their drinking to not appear drunk at first glance, or slur their speech when they answer the phone. The same can be said for pot, too.
There's a pretty clear line between too drunk to run a store / bar / whatever, versus sneaking a shot or two on the clock.
Note the emphasis. A lot of people can moderate their drinking to not appear drunk at first glance, or slur their speech when they answer the phone. The same can be said for pot, too.
There's a pretty clear line between too drunk to run a store / bar / whatever, versus sneaking a shot or two on the clock.
I'd be interested to know if the new market for "full spectrum hemp" in non-decriminalized states is also affecting the legal growers. Here in NC, you can go into stores all over the state and buy thc edibles for a very reasonable price. And I'm not even talking about the delta-8 stuff that was popular for a while (though that's around too). Basically a farm bill loophole has made it so that processing low-thc hemp and selling products made from that is very profitable, and it doesn't have the same tax burden of legal weed. Even real flower is available through a different loophole, and you can go to dab bars in cities like Nashville and buy concentrate from that loophole bud. I could see people who would otherwise travel across state lines for reputable product preferring the loophole stuff due to convenience and price.
I was in NC recently and totally baffled by the selection and availability of different cannabis products. I'm still not sure what I was buying/smoking half the time, but I mostly enjoyed it.
Here in NY, we have a different kind of "gray market" that has been filling the vacuum created by a lack of legally sanctioned stores. It started as weed vans all over the city (selling products of questionable quality) and then it was bodegas and smoke shops selling flowers and prerolls on every street corner. Now we have full-blown recreational shops with bright lights and branded packaging selling nothing but weed 24/7, and they are completely illegal.
The first legal stores finally opened up a few days ago.
Here in NY, we have a different kind of "gray market" that has been filling the vacuum created by a lack of legally sanctioned stores. It started as weed vans all over the city (selling products of questionable quality) and then it was bodegas and smoke shops selling flowers and prerolls on every street corner. Now we have full-blown recreational shops with bright lights and branded packaging selling nothing but weed 24/7, and they are completely illegal.
The first legal stores finally opened up a few days ago.
How is cannabis flower legal through a loophole? Someone here in TX said they have the real thing but I was skeptical, since some D8/CBD places are trying to sell smokable hemp.
That said, I must say Delta 8 and 11-Hydroxy-THC are two very different but enjoyable and legal substances in Texas. 6mg of D8 is just enough to take the edge off a day, and a full one will just totally chill you out for movies. Then THCjd, HHC or 11 Hydroxy THC will level you if that's what you want.
That said, I must say Delta 8 and 11-Hydroxy-THC are two very different but enjoyable and legal substances in Texas. 6mg of D8 is just enough to take the edge off a day, and a full one will just totally chill you out for movies. Then THCjd, HHC or 11 Hydroxy THC will level you if that's what you want.
Lookup "high THCA hemp" for the loophole stuff (the subreddit "cultofthefranklin" is also dedicated to it). Basically THCA occurs naturally and converts directly to THC when heated (smoked or vaped), so if you test the bud before it converts, it passes because it's not technically THC per the federal farm bill. Some state bills are different though and do count THCA towards total THC.
[deleted]
Bad for small businesses, but potentially good for purchasers (i.e. low prices). Unfortunate for those looking to get rich, but legal weed is essentially farming, and no one thinks of farming as easy money. It’s like starting your own brewery or vineyard/winery. They are commodity products, not huge moneymakers.
I have a friend making a killing at the 3 local breweries he runs, so making a tidy profit can be done.
I would argue that medical marijuana is really where the money went.
In states where there is only medical and not rec, you have to pay hundreds a year to get and keep your prescription. Anyone can get one they just have to say literally anything to a weed doctor and you get the prescription. It took me 15 minutes. Couple hundred bucks a couple times a year though to keep it. The people making money are the few politically well connected companies that have growers licenses and the doctors prescribing it. The grow licenses are worth tens / hundreds? of millions. Its honestly insane, everyone knows anyone can get a license if they have the $, but at the same time we continue to arrest and imprison people that don't have the money or the where withal to get a license.
> The people making money are the few politically well connected companies that have growers licenses and the doctors prescribing it. The grow licenses are worth tens / hundreds? of millions.
Honestly knowing some of the backend of a grow in a medical only state, the grows aren't where the money is.
The article glances over this very quickly, but real money is in the dispensaries.
(this is from a dispensary angle)
> Carl Giannone, the co-founder of cannabis company Trade Roots in Massachusetts, said an eighth of an ounce used to reliably sell for $55. Now he has to price it near $40.
> “And the scary part is that product that’s selling for $40, I can buy from a large wholesaler for $7.50,” he said.
> “The green rush has never happened,” Luchini said.
Nothing like a 533% markup.
Honestly knowing some of the backend of a grow in a medical only state, the grows aren't where the money is.
The article glances over this very quickly, but real money is in the dispensaries.
(this is from a dispensary angle)
> Carl Giannone, the co-founder of cannabis company Trade Roots in Massachusetts, said an eighth of an ounce used to reliably sell for $55. Now he has to price it near $40.
> “And the scary part is that product that’s selling for $40, I can buy from a large wholesaler for $7.50,” he said.
> “The green rush has never happened,” Luchini said.
Nothing like a 533% markup.
533% markup isn’t all that different than retail, where they use the $1-$2-$4 rule of thumb. $1 to make, wholesale price $2, charge customers $4.
Or alcohol, where a $10 wholesale bottle of whiskey will sell for > $100 (20+ shots at $5/shot).
Retail is mostly overhead, not product. Something like cannabis, which is cash only and requires extra security, is actually fairly within norms.
Or alcohol, where a $10 wholesale bottle of whiskey will sell for > $100 (20+ shots at $5/shot).
Retail is mostly overhead, not product. Something like cannabis, which is cash only and requires extra security, is actually fairly within norms.
Crops have a shelf life and a consumption window - they are perishable. There’s enormous investment going on in technologies to enhance the storage of downstream products. That will pay off, in the same way that the excess crops of the Ohio valley were profitable once they could be converted to alcohol. Today’s glut is an abundance of raw material that indicates demand for some method to store the product longer.
Isn't the oils and extracts that solution for the long term storage? What's missing?
> Isn't the oils and extracts that solution for the long term storage?
Yep, and you will see distillate used for things like edibles/drinks/vapes.
This has two problems (in my mind), but both the same cause...consumers are picky.
First issue is most states require the date of extraction to be listed on the product packaging. If they see a really old date, they get sketchy about it. (ex: I have recently got some R&D stuff from a grow, and the extraction date was listed as February 2022 and that set off alarm bells in my head, even though it's perfectly fine like you mentioned.)
The second is a group of issues in consumers minds and they are all closely related. Distillate doesn't have all the terpenes the other forms do (and therefore removes the 'strain specific' effects that some go after), so you lose out on the entourage effect[0]. Some grows will start re-adding the terpenes to distillate using cheaper plant based (tree in some cases) terpenes and again, people are picky and this turns them off of the product.
[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165946/
Yep, and you will see distillate used for things like edibles/drinks/vapes.
This has two problems (in my mind), but both the same cause...consumers are picky.
First issue is most states require the date of extraction to be listed on the product packaging. If they see a really old date, they get sketchy about it. (ex: I have recently got some R&D stuff from a grow, and the extraction date was listed as February 2022 and that set off alarm bells in my head, even though it's perfectly fine like you mentioned.)
The second is a group of issues in consumers minds and they are all closely related. Distillate doesn't have all the terpenes the other forms do (and therefore removes the 'strain specific' effects that some go after), so you lose out on the entourage effect[0]. Some grows will start re-adding the terpenes to distillate using cheaper plant based (tree in some cases) terpenes and again, people are picky and this turns them off of the product.
[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165946/
Shelf life is still around year according to the expiration dates on the medical concentrates in my state.
That is likely an arbitrary date chosen by the state regulatory police force and not really accurate and it's not well studied. So if your buddy offers you some expired gummies 3 months old "or I'm gonna toss it out" don't pass them up.
I agree about a year is my experience
I stored a pounds of weed in air tight 5 gallon homedepot buckets for many years (forgot about them actually when I shut down my operation). After pulling it out and sampling it, still smelled fresh and smoked well. I could have easily sold it.
As long as it is stored well, I don't think this is as major of a concern as you're making it out to be.
As long as it is stored well, I don't think this is as major of a concern as you're making it out to be.
Weed is incredibly easy to grow and consumers simply cannot consume all that much of it. Half of all weed users like the idea of investing in weed industries. Too much investor money chasing a small TAM.
It seemed like over the last year or two, dispensaries shot up. Lots of new construction, fancy buildings, expensive weed.
Now it seems like at least half of them closed down, a lot of the chains opened too many locations. This was supposed to bring in all this tax money that was going to fix the roads and the schools and who knows what else.
I just don't know why it was going to be such a big deal to have legal places to buy when everyone that smokes already 'knows a guy' or three.
Now it seems like at least half of them closed down, a lot of the chains opened too many locations. This was supposed to bring in all this tax money that was going to fix the roads and the schools and who knows what else.
I just don't know why it was going to be such a big deal to have legal places to buy when everyone that smokes already 'knows a guy' or three.
This is a fascinating change to the arc of the cannabis industry that I did not expect to see. We make the distinction between legal and illegal sales but the market does not care. With decriminalization happening all over I wonder if the existing culture of illegal trade will continue to thrive and always exist to undercut legal sales.
Can someone please explain the CBD market? I’m in Paris right now and it seems like every block has a high end (looking) CBD shop. How are these rents being covered? Who is buying? I have to believe that most people still want THC.
I believe THC is still illegal in France.
So it's mostly convenience - a certain base of weed users don't want to buy from dealers, or want the security of a well produced product - an illicitly produced THC vape can be dangerous [1][2].
CBD (particularly the terpene infused ones) fill that gap.
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-cannabis-oi... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xweejk/cannabis-vapes-pens-b...
Edit: Should also mention there's a market for the effects of weed, without the 'high'.
CBD (particularly the terpene infused ones) fill that gap.
[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/vaping-cannabis-oi... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/xweejk/cannabis-vapes-pens-b...
Edit: Should also mention there's a market for the effects of weed, without the 'high'.
CBD does seem to have some minor medical benefits like some inflammation and pain reduction. It's not the miracle cure that the CBD pitch men claim though. Most of the affects are apparently placebo based though.
CBD has pretty awesome properties. For me, it kills or controls migraines very quickly.
I also use it when I get dental procedures, because it's not intoxicating like Ativan or similar.
I also use it when I get dental procedures, because it's not intoxicating like Ativan or similar.
A friend owns a vertically integrated marijuana business. His research says his company alone exceeds the state’s demand. Meanwhile he has half a dozen competitors of equal size and dozens of small operators who retail only.
Is there any other markets that the same hydroponic equipment could be used for that's profitable?
Or maybe just the greenhouses and gardening equipment, since hydroponic has a limited set of vegetables/plants that it can grow.
Or maybe just the greenhouses and gardening equipment, since hydroponic has a limited set of vegetables/plants that it can grow.
Tomatoes, peppers, lettuce, culinary herbs, and many other plant species are grown profitably under hydroponic conditions. This is especially common in colder climates, to maximize the yield per square foot in expensive greenhouses. It's sometimes economic even outdoors though, like in regions with poor soil or scarce water, or to mitigate some (but not all) pests and pathogens. Here's a paper studying the economics of hydroponic greenhouse tomatoes in Florida:
https://svaec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/svaecifasufledu/docs/pdf/ag...
The theory is the same regardless of the plant species, but irrigation equipment and consumables targeting the cannabis industry tend to be quite expensive, sometimes because the higher-value crop justified that, sometimes for no good reason. The lighting requirements for cannabis are also unusual (very high PPFD, controlled photoperiod for non-autoflowering strains), so the greenhouses would need some reconfiguration. So the capital investment doesn't go to zero, but it's a big markdown.
A lot of graduates of top agronomy and horticulture programs (Cornell, etc.) also seem to have ended up in cannabis, I assume because the money was good. It will probably be better for society overall if this crash redirects their efforts to the food supply, though sad for them personally--vegetable growers are paid quite badly, even by the already dismal standards of the life sciences.
https://svaec.ifas.ufl.edu/media/svaecifasufledu/docs/pdf/ag...
The theory is the same regardless of the plant species, but irrigation equipment and consumables targeting the cannabis industry tend to be quite expensive, sometimes because the higher-value crop justified that, sometimes for no good reason. The lighting requirements for cannabis are also unusual (very high PPFD, controlled photoperiod for non-autoflowering strains), so the greenhouses would need some reconfiguration. So the capital investment doesn't go to zero, but it's a big markdown.
A lot of graduates of top agronomy and horticulture programs (Cornell, etc.) also seem to have ended up in cannabis, I assume because the money was good. It will probably be better for society overall if this crash redirects their efforts to the food supply, though sad for them personally--vegetable growers are paid quite badly, even by the already dismal standards of the life sciences.
Thank you for this comment, it's very insightful.
Well, it's been a joke (at least around me) for a long time that weed was just like tomatoes to grow. If someone can figure out how to pull off a good quality heirloom tomato variety that works even in the dead of winter, that sure would be nice.
The hard part is finding someone to pay $500/pound for tomatoes.
Tomatoes and peppers grow great in hydroponic setups but good luck in profitability.
Potentially: Growing veggies in Alaska and other far north places where people have trouble getting veggies at all and typically pay crazy high prices compared to what people pay elsewhere.
At the peak the BM market in norcal was as high as 3500-4000 a pound. Today outdoor is going for 1-300 on the bm.
[deleted]
Why do people keep using the term 'marijuana' when 'cannabis' is far more accurate and certainly less racist. It seems to be mainly a U.S. thing.
https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/where-did-the-word-...
https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/where-did-the-word-...
Without paywall at https://archive.ph/8aj7W
You can't overtax something people can grow themselves.
So even in a supply glut, demand doesn't go up much. The supply of potential druggies is limited. That's good news.
I think if people were more open to it culturally it would be used a lot more. I know plenty of my elderly relatives who would benefit switching from opioids to this for their chronic pain, but they grew up being fed lies about the drug that precludes them ever experimenting.
Socially its also not up to the level of alcohol is even in California. Every work event I have for instance has a selection of beers and wines and hard kombucha for us, but never any weed even if its legal for all of us, a few of us do use it, and our company does not care that we do it or not. One can argue "well a whole joint is a lot for most people" but I counter with the fact that you do not need to necessarily imbibe to the point of total impairment just like how you would not polish an entire bottle of scotch at the work event. They even sell seltzers with just a touch of thc in them these days, that would certainly be healthier than a white claw.
Socially its also not up to the level of alcohol is even in California. Every work event I have for instance has a selection of beers and wines and hard kombucha for us, but never any weed even if its legal for all of us, a few of us do use it, and our company does not care that we do it or not. One can argue "well a whole joint is a lot for most people" but I counter with the fact that you do not need to necessarily imbibe to the point of total impairment just like how you would not polish an entire bottle of scotch at the work event. They even sell seltzers with just a touch of thc in them these days, that would certainly be healthier than a white claw.
Got to normalize edibles (and federal legalization wouldn't hurt). No one in the US is going to provide product to smoke or vape.
That's why I think these edible drinks are really interesting for mass market. Pabst Blue Ribbon makes a thc beer now (no alcohol in it though). You can sip on one of these like you would a beer in a social setting, and it will be like 5-10mg which is as small as edibles go for the most part in terms of dosage. Even if that was high for your tolerance you can just cut yourself off, and safe the rest of the drink for another time if its not flat by then.
That being said, smoking weed has been normalized in california for perhaps over 50 years and you still don't yet see these drinks offered to people at social events really even though there will always be a ton of booze. Maybe it would take establishments actually getting licenses to serve and consume THC to really change how our culture looks at this stuff in contrast to alcohol.
That being said, smoking weed has been normalized in california for perhaps over 50 years and you still don't yet see these drinks offered to people at social events really even though there will always be a ton of booze. Maybe it would take establishments actually getting licenses to serve and consume THC to really change how our culture looks at this stuff in contrast to alcohol.
Those popular Terra edibles are 5mg each and I know multiple people who prefer only half of one. I'd be interested in trying a very low THC beer, like 2-5mg. Don't underestimate the role tolerance plays. Most occasional/casual users simply have a minor overdose on what regular users consider "good" weed or "small" edibles.
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>has a selection of beers and wines and hard kombucha for us, but never any weed even if its legal for all of us, a few of us do use it
Do you expect them to have a selection of cigars and cigarettes too?
Do you expect them to have a selection of cigars and cigarettes too?
Why not? Cigars are great.
I'm still shocked we don't have a weed emoji. There's at least 7 for booze.
Is that surprising? A lot of people really don’t like the experience and smoking generally has a pretty negative image culturally at the moment.
And just like that, it's gone. All the big-money growers went to Oklahoma, and only a few remain. Which, I guess makes sense. The only reason they were here in the first place was because of the regulatory environment-- Not because land is particularly cheap or water particularly abundant.
I'm in the wine world, so I suppose I have some sour grapes, so to speak. In the boom times, a single cannabis plant could throw off $500 worth of product. Plus, the indoor grows were usually doing multiple harvests per year. Whereas my plant takes half a decade to establish, then produces $10 of fruit in a good year.