Show HN: Loti – Remove revenge porn using facial recognition on adult sites(goloti.com)
goloti.com
Show HN: Loti – Remove revenge porn using facial recognition on adult sites
https://goloti.com/
75 comments
Confirmation is lower right now as we are working to get people into the app, a DMV/government license before people know who we are may be a too big of a pill to swallow for a starting company.
We do have ML models running in the background to detect abuse and the accounts are flagged to management to reach out to those customers. I don't want to go through all the cat-and-mouse strategies we may have to avoid people gaming them.
If someone has taken pictures for a company and given their model release for that image and its made its way to an adult site, then the individual should not initiate a DMCA. This is something we make our customers aware of before they DMCA content. Also, we know from first hand experience that site operators are quick to deny a DMCA if they do own rights for it. We've talked to them about this very situation.
We do have ML models running in the background to detect abuse and the accounts are flagged to management to reach out to those customers. I don't want to go through all the cat-and-mouse strategies we may have to avoid people gaming them.
If someone has taken pictures for a company and given their model release for that image and its made its way to an adult site, then the individual should not initiate a DMCA. This is something we make our customers aware of before they DMCA content. Also, we know from first hand experience that site operators are quick to deny a DMCA if they do own rights for it. We've talked to them about this very situation.
We have an error-proof system in place that follows specific protocols and instructions provided by each individual host websites. This helps us filter out 90% non-legitimate takedown notices.
"We have an error-proof system" ... yeah, no you don't. Especially if you're using ML.
Why is the DMCA even relevant here?
Who's the copyright holder?
Not founders, so I can only provide my interpretation. Some states have revenge porn laws, some providers will remove content that is non consensual and of an adult nature if notified, so I presume they’re using DMCA as a proxy for all of the above. “Takedown requests” is probably better verbiage.
Depending on the circumstances, who the copyright holder is is immaterial.
Also, IANAL! Not legal advice!
Depending on the circumstances, who the copyright holder is is immaterial.
Also, IANAL! Not legal advice!
They are considered unauthorized models.
Can you elaborate? I can't find anything in DMCA that says the subject of the image has copyright of the image.
If you are going to commercialize an image like put ads on your site or charge a paywall to see content all the models featured in the image must have signed model release forms. This isn’t us opining about how DMCA should work, this is just precedent.
Try to run a marketing campaign for any brand without getting model release forms for everyone depicted and you’ll see exact how legal responds.
Try to run a marketing campaign for any brand without getting model release forms for everyone depicted and you’ll see exact how legal responds.
Hi, I am Hirak. I am a co-founder of Loti.
Loti uses state of the art facial recognition algorithm built with proprietary models. It takes into consideration a dozen facial characteristics in more than 1 angles to find matches from a collection of more than 50 million data sets. We keep adding millions of new data every month to make sure we don't miss out any privacy breach of your photo.
Loti uses state of the art facial recognition algorithm built with proprietary models. It takes into consideration a dozen facial characteristics in more than 1 angles to find matches from a collection of more than 50 million data sets. We keep adding millions of new data every month to make sure we don't miss out any privacy breach of your photo.
Separate question:
We’ve established that your website’s claim that there are 2.6 billion victims of revenge porn isn’t shared by people that work at Loti and it’s more likely ~400 million.
Given that fact, if you were able to get 1% of those people to subscribe (4 million) at $8/mo, you would be taking in $32,000,000 per month ($384,000,000 per year).
Would you not be the most profitable entity in the business of revenge porn?
We’ve established that your website’s claim that there are 2.6 billion victims of revenge porn isn’t shared by people that work at Loti and it’s more likely ~400 million.
Given that fact, if you were able to get 1% of those people to subscribe (4 million) at $8/mo, you would be taking in $32,000,000 per month ($384,000,000 per year).
Would you not be the most profitable entity in the business of revenge porn?
Why should it be a "subscription"?
Its not like your content once id'd and removed can't be uploaded again so why would there be recurring fees?
Its not like your content once id'd and removed can't be uploaded again so why would there be recurring fees?
>Why should it be a "subscription"?
I genuinely have no idea, but that’s how they’ve decided to price this. For $8 you don’t even get takedowns or search results according to the pricing page. As far as I can tell you give them $8 per month in exchange for a monthly email saying “We ran a search.”?
This is quite a bizarre company.
I genuinely have no idea, but that’s how they’ve decided to price this. For $8 you don’t even get takedowns or search results according to the pricing page. As far as I can tell you give them $8 per month in exchange for a monthly email saying “We ran a search.”?
This is quite a bizarre company.
Plot twist: they're the ones reuploading the taken down materials.
It's a money making machine! /s
It's a money making machine! /s
Because that totally works.
Look at youtube and the phenomenal work done there to get the same contentID'd video on via transforms.
Look at youtube and the phenomenal work done there to get the same contentID'd video on via transforms.
How did you arrive at the number of over 2.6 Billion victims of revenge porn? 33% of people seems like an incredible number.
Here's the quick read:
https://www.fastcompany.com/90467411/shocking-study-finds-1-...
Here's the real study: https://www.naag.org/attorney-general-journal/an-update-on-t...
Also, I don't think these numbers could be extrapolated to every country/region/culture on earth but they do seem to hold for european and english speaking markets.
Here's the real study: https://www.naag.org/attorney-general-journal/an-update-on-t...
Also, I don't think these numbers could be extrapolated to every country/region/culture on earth but they do seem to hold for european and english speaking markets.
So you work for this company and your opinion that it’s 33% of english-speaking and european people? Napkin math puts the number of victims at ~400 million (population of europe + north america/3), maybe double that if you charitably count all of Africa being “english speaking”.
Any issues you have, you should read the study listed above. Gather what you want from it, believe what makes sense to you. It doesn’t matter to our mission.
EDIT: regarding our marketing, I’ve cited our source.
EDIT: regarding our marketing, I’ve cited our source.
I hope this service succeeds but that particular claim, especially in the light of the articles you shared, makes you seem untrustworthy.
How is NAAG disreputable?
I don’t think they’re calling NAAG disreputable, they’re calling you disreputable since you’ve now openly admitted that you don’t think that the number on your site is accurate but have chosen to pass the buck.
You can’t make everyone happy.
Not with obviously untrue statements that you admit to, no.
Like lol what a silly premise. “Look to your left, look to your right, if you can’t find revenge porn of either of these people, there’s revenge porn of you! We don’t think this applies to the billions of people that don’t speak English or live in Europe, but we have very enlightened definitions of ‘percentage’ and ‘people’”
Like lol what a silly premise. “Look to your left, look to your right, if you can’t find revenge porn of either of these people, there’s revenge porn of you! We don’t think this applies to the billions of people that don’t speak English or live in Europe, but we have very enlightened definitions of ‘percentage’ and ‘people’”
No, obviously, not with bullshit claims.
Literally, I’ve cited the Nation Association of Attorneys General. How it keeps getting reduced to bullshit is beyond my comprehension.
EDIT: I'll just make one more comment about our marketing materials then I'm going to leave it alone.
Most people don't realize how prevalent NCII is. Most people would be mortified to find out our database is home to millions of hidden cameras from short-term rentals, bathrooms, changing rooms and private environments of that ilk.
We want to encourage everyone to at least check to see if this is something they may be a victim of. We used solid referenced studies from reputable agencies to highlight how common this problem can actually be.
For everyone and anyone that wants to upload a picture, without giving us a credit card we'll check for free. That's part of our onboarding and that's what happens for the majority of signups. People upload a picture, we say "there is nothing we've found" and they bounce.
What we don't want people to think is, "This service is only for people that send intimate images, there is no way I'm impacted by this." Unfortunately, this problem is far more common than most realize. I feel like your stance only highlights that.
We want people to try, for free, to see if there is content out there we can help them remove.
EDIT: I'll just make one more comment about our marketing materials then I'm going to leave it alone.
Most people don't realize how prevalent NCII is. Most people would be mortified to find out our database is home to millions of hidden cameras from short-term rentals, bathrooms, changing rooms and private environments of that ilk.
We want to encourage everyone to at least check to see if this is something they may be a victim of. We used solid referenced studies from reputable agencies to highlight how common this problem can actually be.
For everyone and anyone that wants to upload a picture, without giving us a credit card we'll check for free. That's part of our onboarding and that's what happens for the majority of signups. People upload a picture, we say "there is nothing we've found" and they bounce.
What we don't want people to think is, "This service is only for people that send intimate images, there is no way I'm impacted by this." Unfortunately, this problem is far more common than most realize. I feel like your stance only highlights that.
We want people to try, for free, to see if there is content out there we can help them remove.
> How it keeps getting reduced to bullshit is beyond my comprehension
Can you answer a simple yes or no to the statement “I believe that there are over two and a half billion victims of revenge porn”?
If yes, why did you post this:
> > Also, I don't think these numbers could be extrapolated to every country/region/culture on earth but they do seem to hold for european and english speaking markets.
If no, why is that figure used on your website?
Can you answer a simple yes or no to the statement “I believe that there are over two and a half billion victims of revenge porn”?
If yes, why did you post this:
> > Also, I don't think these numbers could be extrapolated to every country/region/culture on earth but they do seem to hold for european and english speaking markets.
If no, why is that figure used on your website?
Your website says “33% of people”
Do you think it’s useful to state that given your own admission that it’s likely much lower?
Do you think it’s useful to state that given your own admission that it’s likely much lower?
Truth does not matter to your mission.
How high is the recall and the precision of your facial recognition ML model? :)
Are you fucking stupid? You literally just built a porn reverse image search tool. Think about it, all you need is a screen shot of a single frame of porn and you can find links to other vids with that person. This is a godsend for coomers.
Not to mention, the abuse potential of something like this is insane. Now anyone can just use a girls facebook profile or linkedin pic to find nudes - perfect for fapping or for blackmail. Copyright isn't gonna stop offiline copies from being taken, and the fact that most NCII out there exists of a subject that is unaware of said content being published, hence the people that need your tool the most proabably won't know it exists - until its too late.
It's so funny how you're trying to pass of this tool as "socially beneficial" when all it's gonna do is make the problem worse.
The internet and digital cameras being available to everyone was a mistake, when I come to power I'm just outright banning any transmission or storage of any photos of naked human bodies with the exception of medical reference pics. Or I'll just ban cellphones and home computers from civillian use entirely.
EDIT: I probably wouldn't ban the internet or home computers, but I'd at least completely ban porn, and use a tool like OPs to enforce such a ban with extreme prejudice. Anyone hosting or running a site with such content would face years of hard labor
The internet and digital cameras being available to everyone was a mistake, when I come to power I'm just outright banning any transmission or storage of any photos of naked human bodies with the exception of medical reference pics. Or I'll just ban cellphones and home computers from civillian use entirely.
EDIT: I probably wouldn't ban the internet or home computers, but I'd at least completely ban porn, and use a tool like OPs to enforce such a ban with extreme prejudice. Anyone hosting or running a site with such content would face years of hard labor
There are many other sites like this built to facilitate the removal of revenge porn and sending DMCA requests to sites who use the material of amateur and professional performers.
It’s good for you to shine a light on the problematics aspects of this tech but this is a decades old industry so I think you are being a bit harsh by treating the poster as if they are creating a new problem.
It’s good for you to shine a light on the problematics aspects of this tech but this is a decades old industry so I think you are being a bit harsh by treating the poster as if they are creating a new problem.
OP did create a tool that could easily be used for abuse and blackmail. Of course, it could also be used to solve the problem if the government just grew a pair and banned porn outright and punished anyone caught hosting or producing it harshly.
And here we are, defensive AI to aggressive/offensive/assault AI.
So the cloud providers will:
- make bank from the social networks hosting your content/likeness
- make bank from the offensive/exploitation AIs trying to exploit your content/likeness for gain
- make bank from the detection/defensive AIs looking for exploits of your content/likeness
The laws will never catch up.
So the cloud providers will:
- make bank from the social networks hosting your content/likeness
- make bank from the offensive/exploitation AIs trying to exploit your content/likeness for gain
- make bank from the detection/defensive AIs looking for exploits of your content/likeness
The laws will never catch up.
Hi I'm Luke, co-founder.
People are warned that an image lives on the internet forever, this has been especially true for images that are not consensually taken or shared. We’re fixing that.
We created Loti (https://goloti.com), a service that uses facial recognition to help users search, find, and reclaim non-consensual intimate images and videos using a streamlined DMCA process we facilitate in our software.
Over 10 million people are victims of non-consensual image sharing in the United States alone. Those are just the people that were even aware that their images were being shared; research shows that up to 30% of victims were hacked or victims of hidden cameras and are unaware.
Our goal is to bring peace of mind that your private images stay private.
People are warned that an image lives on the internet forever, this has been especially true for images that are not consensually taken or shared. We’re fixing that.
We created Loti (https://goloti.com), a service that uses facial recognition to help users search, find, and reclaim non-consensual intimate images and videos using a streamlined DMCA process we facilitate in our software.
Over 10 million people are victims of non-consensual image sharing in the United States alone. Those are just the people that were even aware that their images were being shared; research shows that up to 30% of victims were hacked or victims of hidden cameras and are unaware.
Our goal is to bring peace of mind that your private images stay private.
I bet y'all would make a lot more money charging $8/mo to find porn with the exact facial characteristic someone is looking for.
Don't get me wrong, revenge porn is bad, but charging people money to take it down seems, well I guess better than nothing but let's hope a nonprofit starts maintaining a database like this and completely eliminates any market this site may capture.
Also abusing the DMCA for censorship, even in pursuit of a noble cause is harmful to society, though maybe not more harmful than revenge porn?
I'm really curious how our culture will continue to reckon with the ideas that
a) There are intimate images extant of many people. Many will become most.
b) AI powered face swapping and image generation will make arbitrary porn trivial on home-gamer GPUs in a few years.
Don't get me wrong, revenge porn is bad, but charging people money to take it down seems, well I guess better than nothing but let's hope a nonprofit starts maintaining a database like this and completely eliminates any market this site may capture.
Also abusing the DMCA for censorship, even in pursuit of a noble cause is harmful to society, though maybe not more harmful than revenge porn?
I'm really curious how our culture will continue to reckon with the ideas that
a) There are intimate images extant of many people. Many will become most.
b) AI powered face swapping and image generation will make arbitrary porn trivial on home-gamer GPUs in a few years.
The idea of charging $8/mo for someone to look at anyone's photos online is pretty far off brand for us. We're really looking to help people find just their own photos. I do agree the market would be larger but that's not something we're interested in doing. That breaks ethical barriers for us.
We have to charge money to cover our expenses, most people don't realize how expensive GPU's are and that's the only way to do this cost effectively at scale. Even a non-profit would incur enormous expenses because there is just no way to do this cheap.
There is no abuse of the DMCA process here. Customers are asked to sign an affidavit and we don't allow them to DMCA outside of their facial profiles.
We have to charge money to cover our expenses, most people don't realize how expensive GPU's are and that's the only way to do this cost effectively at scale. Even a non-profit would incur enormous expenses because there is just no way to do this cheap.
There is no abuse of the DMCA process here. Customers are asked to sign an affidavit and we don't allow them to DMCA outside of their facial profiles.
I just don't feel like your motives can possibly be aligned with victims if you're trying to make money off victims.
RE: DMCA abuse, it's probably within the letter of the law, the law itself is broken.
Bonus question: How does this all deal with twins? What's the miss rate on facial recognition anyway?
RE: DMCA abuse, it's probably within the letter of the law, the law itself is broken.
Bonus question: How does this all deal with twins? What's the miss rate on facial recognition anyway?
We're partnered with RAINN and other sexual abuse agencies to give victims in extreme situations free access to our site. Our alignment isn't perfect but we are working to be a useful tool at a low cost.
Some things provide a social good but also have expenses, this happens to be one of them. Doctors charge patients, lawyers charge their clients and we aren't anywhere near those margins.
EDIT: Twins are still a weak spot for us, but we have a plan to build a model that can tell two twins apart.
Some things provide a social good but also have expenses, this happens to be one of them. Doctors charge patients, lawyers charge their clients and we aren't anywhere near those margins.
EDIT: Twins are still a weak spot for us, but we have a plan to build a model that can tell two twins apart.
So, I do understand that it costs you money, but I'm agreeing with thot_experiment: it doesn't feel right, at least for the "victims of NCII" use case (as opposed to the "creator" use case with the $100/mo plan... I frankly think the pricing there is a bit high, but hopefully you've talked with enough sex workers to verify that works for them; honestly, if your website were focused more on that use case, and downplayed the victim one, I'd find it more consistent).
Instead of a bunch of happy customers of your service, you are going to see people complain constantly about your product and consider you a "protection racket". You are also going to find yourself in the situation where the people you are helping are claiming you are "in cahoots" with the porn companies, particularly when they realize that they have to keep paying your subscription fee in order to avoid their stuff being posted again and again to different sites.
Some things are just asking for a world of hurt, and you need to really really play up the charity angle here and frankly attempt to fund as much of this as possible off of people who aren't the victims you are trying to protect or from a narrative perspective--which a lot of people don't spend enough time analyzing--you are going to spend the rest of your existence playing defense against your own target market feeling like you are part of their problem.
(My credentials here, with respect to talking about "narratives": I'm a well-known engineer who used to spend a lot of time attempting to correct the story developers would tell around jailbreaking and piracy--in some cases due to the mere word "jailbreaking", which I had not myself chosen as I wasn't there at the beginning--and who later went into politics and has been an elected government official in a dense college community for the past five years.)
Instead of a bunch of happy customers of your service, you are going to see people complain constantly about your product and consider you a "protection racket". You are also going to find yourself in the situation where the people you are helping are claiming you are "in cahoots" with the porn companies, particularly when they realize that they have to keep paying your subscription fee in order to avoid their stuff being posted again and again to different sites.
Some things are just asking for a world of hurt, and you need to really really play up the charity angle here and frankly attempt to fund as much of this as possible off of people who aren't the victims you are trying to protect or from a narrative perspective--which a lot of people don't spend enough time analyzing--you are going to spend the rest of your existence playing defense against your own target market feeling like you are part of their problem.
(My credentials here, with respect to talking about "narratives": I'm a well-known engineer who used to spend a lot of time attempting to correct the story developers would tell around jailbreaking and piracy--in some cases due to the mere word "jailbreaking", which I had not myself chosen as I wasn't there at the beginning--and who later went into politics and has been an elected government official in a dense college community for the past five years.)
I really appreciate your feedback, I don’t mean that in a trite way. You’ve given our whole team a lot to think about in terms of how we tell our story. We are contributing in the victim’s side and we are careful about trying not to parade it around, which is why we don’t have our non-profit work on the front site. I get how that is playing to the opposite of what we intended though.
As far as $100/mo for creators, they typically have to pay $300-$400/mo for DMCA services that make the creators bring them links. We find the content and provide a self-serve portal which is all that’s needed for most major sites. So we are dramatically cheaper than the current offering.
The $25/mo plan is more or less a reflection of rising costs with everything. We do have to hire data scientist, data engineers, software engineers, design, marketing and infrastructure. It may be easy to build this for a single site but if people knew how long it took a $35k A100 to watch a single minute of video and realize there are millions of minutes of video to watch, $25/mo (cancel whenever from the portal) feels like a pretty good deal. I’m open but you would be surprised at how expensive this is.
In an ideal world, we make enough off creators to offer it for free to victims of NCII. Right now, we are self funded and hundreds of thousands of dollars in so we can’t adhere to the normal SV economics of giving it away for free, even if we want to.
All of this to not lose the point that we really enjoyed your feedback and there is a lot you’ve given us to think about.
As far as $100/mo for creators, they typically have to pay $300-$400/mo for DMCA services that make the creators bring them links. We find the content and provide a self-serve portal which is all that’s needed for most major sites. So we are dramatically cheaper than the current offering.
The $25/mo plan is more or less a reflection of rising costs with everything. We do have to hire data scientist, data engineers, software engineers, design, marketing and infrastructure. It may be easy to build this for a single site but if people knew how long it took a $35k A100 to watch a single minute of video and realize there are millions of minutes of video to watch, $25/mo (cancel whenever from the portal) feels like a pretty good deal. I’m open but you would be surprised at how expensive this is.
In an ideal world, we make enough off creators to offer it for free to victims of NCII. Right now, we are self funded and hundreds of thousands of dollars in so we can’t adhere to the normal SV economics of giving it away for free, even if we want to.
All of this to not lose the point that we really enjoyed your feedback and there is a lot you’ve given us to think about.
Good answers, I would find this a lot more palatable if you went much harder on the "charity/help" angle. I didn't see any mention of that when I was browsing the site and that's probably something you should be highlighting.
> Doctors charge patients, lawyers charge their clients.
Yeah I'm aware, but because that happens doesn't mean it's the most prosocial system we can implement. I think that you're probably doing good on net and I probably shouldn't have been so negative.
I do worry though that inadequate capitalistic solutions to these sorts of problems serve to preserve a bad status quo in the long run and may end up doing more harm than good?
> Doctors charge patients, lawyers charge their clients.
Yeah I'm aware, but because that happens doesn't mean it's the most prosocial system we can implement. I think that you're probably doing good on net and I probably shouldn't have been so negative.
I do worry though that inadequate capitalistic solutions to these sorts of problems serve to preserve a bad status quo in the long run and may end up doing more harm than good?
What the hell
The fact that someone is processing so much biometrical data makes me feel very uneasy. I know governments and 3-letter agencies do this for a long time, but still. Not exactly sure what revenge porn is, but I think I get the idea.
I think this idea has potential, but HN might be far off from your target audience.
Thanks! I've been a member for a decade and just wanted to share what I'm working on in data science.
> Submit clear detailed pictures of your face in order to find porn of yourself.
Do you think that is a good idea?
Do you think that is a good idea?
Would love clarity, what do you mean? That is the whole point of the service. If you don't submit a clear picture of yourself, there isn't any way for us to search.
I guess the concern is that you are going to link an anonymous pornographic video to a real identity you have confirmed with ID. Clearly a big security risk there that needs to be handled carefully.
For instance, if your alert email contains a link to the video, a bad actor who also had access to that email account now potentially had a blackmail opportunity.
I am sure you handle all this carefully but you have to admit it is fraught.
For instance, if your alert email contains a link to the video, a bad actor who also had access to that email account now potentially had a blackmail opportunity.
I am sure you handle all this carefully but you have to admit it is fraught.
We are very careful with all outbound emails. We built an email system inside of our app to offer a second level of protection from adult sites.
You are making a great database. Ripe for governments, spies, stalkers, and trolls. Being as paranoid as I am I wonder which I assume this falls into.
I don't wonder. The -only- way to really try to protect that data is to not share or make it available - even to companies that allegedly have good intentions.
You’re not crazy, all those risks exist. Right now, we are weighing the good of getting this content off the internet versus the theoretical bad our own system being misused.
How do you verify that the image being uploaded is indeed the user? Otherwise anyone can upload a photo of anyone else to see if they find something, which means you’d be taking the damage of revenge porn to a whole new level by creating an easily searchable index.
Hopefully I never have to use this for me but I am glad it exists
Good experience.
I feel like this can be easily misused
I'm not sure what (1) alert per month means, but I definitely think that $8/mo to find porn with your preferred facial characteristics based on some uploaded images seems like a more viable business model. I'm certain there are people who would pay to have a digest of pron with lookalikes of their favorite actresses/whatever mailed to them regularly.
1 alert a month means that we'll automatically scan our database once a month and send you an email. It's more of an insurance policy to make sure we didn't find anything for you that month.
We have protections in place to prevent misuse but we are aware that prevention will be a large hill for us to climb and we're working on it.
[deleted]
> facial recognition on adult sites
phrasing
phrasing
affordable and much better than other sites.
Good experience.
ethical. It is obvious to do on a positive way by far.
recognition & this is good for everyone.
This my idea
How do you programmatically discern between non-consensual adult images being shared against the subject's wishes versus images where they are somewhere public, don't own the copyright to the photo, but the law does not require the copyright holder remove or take down the image?
Cool idea, might need to pivot, regardless an interesting space to be in in these times.
EDIT: Appreciate the replies!