Milk, cheese and ice cream without the cow has entered the marketplace(washingtonpost.com)
washingtonpost.com
Milk, cheese and ice cream without the cow has entered the marketplace
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/03/12/precision-cultivated-dairy/
92 comments
I’ve often wondered why vegan cheese is so bad (compared to vegan meat, which I generally prefer to actual meat). I ate vegan for a few years and cheese was by far the thing I missed the most. It sounds like if these solid precision fermented base ingredients are available it could open it up to skilled artisans to make a bunch of really interesting and delicious cheeses.
Cheese has some extremely complex behaviors: melts, stretches, browns, etc.. I've tried every vegan cheese I can get my hands on. Lots of progress being made, but nothing that has nailed all the characteristics. Looking forward to more progress.
Starch mixed with congealed fat just doesn't make the right texture or flavor :)
This is a fact-free reply, but I am old enough to remember when skim milk was considered fake, bogus, only for groups of people you don’t like, etc. (It also caused a huge dairy byproduct surplus and then cheese had to be included in everything to make the dairy lobby happy.) I recall trying it and hating it just for the texture and taste. But skim and 1% hold up well to ultrapasturizing and those qualities got better in future rounds.
Fast forward some decades and now I find myself using oat or some nut milk in cereal and liking it. I try to lean vegan when I can to avoid inflammatory side affects. The funny thing is that now if I do indulge in dairy milk I go for whole again as if I was 11 years old.
Fast forward some decades and now I find myself using oat or some nut milk in cereal and liking it. I try to lean vegan when I can to avoid inflammatory side affects. The funny thing is that now if I do indulge in dairy milk I go for whole again as if I was 11 years old.
Useful to know when switching to nut milks that almond milk is chock-full of oxalates and possibly not good for people with kidney stones.
Honestly I don't think this has gone away, nobody I know likes skim milk and it's a pretty universally joked about topic in my circles.
Probably depends on the circles/country. No one I know ever drinks non-skim milk (3-4% fat here). Skim milk is the standard (1.5% fat), when someone says "milk" the mean "skim milk". Starbucks only offers Milk/Soy/Oat where I live, I don't remeber seeing "Skim Milk" listed, hence I assumed they used skimmed milk like I do.
In the other hand there are small quantities of non-skim milk in supermarkets so some people must be using it.
In the other hand there are small quantities of non-skim milk in supermarkets so some people must be using it.
I can’t do whole and can’t do skim(ed). So it’s 2% all the way.
Yeah for me it's the lactose. I won't drink it straight, but I'm good with yogurt/kefir and hard cheeses.
MP and PerfectDay have been doing this for Whey for a while:
https://perfectday.com/newsroom/myprotein-continues-innovati... (PR speak)
I’m super interested in this. I might have missed it but did the author never report on how it tasted? It sounded like she was in a room with a ton of samples.
Brave robot is an ice cream brand with lab-grown whey and it's quite good. I haven't tried any cheese with lab-grown casein yet.
I'm a big fan of non-dairy, and have tried all the flavors of Brave Robot. Unfortunately, I think the non-animal whey protein is primarily a marketing feature rather than a substantial ingredient currently. It's 7th on the ingredient list:
WATER, SUGAR, COCONUT OIL, CORN SYRUP, SUNFLOWER OIL, PECANS, NON-ANIMAL WHEY PROTEIN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% MALTODEXTRIN, ...
https://braverobot.co/products/buttery-pecan
WATER, SUGAR, COCONUT OIL, CORN SYRUP, SUNFLOWER OIL, PECANS, NON-ANIMAL WHEY PROTEIN, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% MALTODEXTRIN, ...
https://braverobot.co/products/buttery-pecan
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If someone made fake milk that tasted like the real thing I would pay twice as much, no qualms, due to the environmental benefits (assuming it was provably a lot less energy intensive), and also animal welfare issues
Try switching to Oat milk for a month. At the end regular mill will taste less creamy and more watery than you remember and frankly will taste unappetizing. That was the challenge I was given and it 100% worked.
I’ve found a great variation in oat milk quality. For the time being I’m an Oatly loyalist but the price is a notable premium over regular milk.
There’s a great variation in ingredients!
I like the ones that are made out of oats, water, maybe a little salt.
90% of the oat milks on the market here in Aus, and 100% of the ones marked as “Barista Style” contain oil, usually sunflower.
I don’t think it needs it. It’s delicious ‘straight’.
I like the ones that are made out of oats, water, maybe a little salt.
90% of the oat milks on the market here in Aus, and 100% of the ones marked as “Barista Style” contain oil, usually sunflower.
I don’t think it needs it. It’s delicious ‘straight’.
Only if you can ignore the bitter aftertaste, the overly 'creamy' taste and consistency and the fact that it does taste of watered-down porridge.
If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home instead of paying some greenwashing company far too much for watered-down porridge. Oat 'milk' is ~10% oats, ~3% fat (rape seed oil works fine with its neutral taste) and some salt for taste. You can make the stuff in a blender, just take some oats - breakfast type works fine - and blend it with the other ingredients. The main thing to watch out for is that you run the blender in short bursts since running it for a longer time produces too much heat in the mixture which leads to a slimy unappetising result. So, short bursts until the oats have been shredded to the desired (small) size. Use immediately or store for later use, you'll have to shake it just like you have to do with the commercial variety. Taste-wise there is not much difference, you can make it taste any way you want.
If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home instead of paying some greenwashing company far too much for watered-down porridge. Oat 'milk' is ~10% oats, ~3% fat (rape seed oil works fine with its neutral taste) and some salt for taste. You can make the stuff in a blender, just take some oats - breakfast type works fine - and blend it with the other ingredients. The main thing to watch out for is that you run the blender in short bursts since running it for a longer time produces too much heat in the mixture which leads to a slimy unappetising result. So, short bursts until the oats have been shredded to the desired (small) size. Use immediately or store for later use, you'll have to shake it just like you have to do with the commercial variety. Taste-wise there is not much difference, you can make it taste any way you want.
Yes! We have a chefwave machine at home that does all the things based on what you put in there and then cleans itself. You get more of the nutrients and no added sugars.
> If you decide to like the stuff anyway you might as well make it at home
Posted elsewhere as well but we used cold water and very short bursts for blending with our vitamix, and still get sliminess. Any ideas?
Posted elsewhere as well but we used cold water and very short bursts for blending with our vitamix, and still get sliminess. Any ideas?
Maybe try it at a lower speed? I only tried this a few times because my daughter prefers the stuff over real milk. The first experiment ended up slimy, after that I used short bursts at the low speed setting and got something resembling the packaged product.
If I could be arsed, I absolutely would. As someone that prefers it without oil, I imagine it would be dirt cheap to make.
Convenience is a killer though :)
Convenience is a killer though :)
There is the convenience of not having to buy the stuff... A bag of oats goes a long way and keeps for a long time...
Plus you get beta-glucan which helps with cholesterol.
See eg
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/
> Consumption of oat milk for 5 weeks lowers serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol in free-living men with moderate hypercholesterolemia
See eg
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10749030/
> Consumption of oat milk for 5 weeks lowers serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol in free-living men with moderate hypercholesterolemia
Presumably, this in counter to 0% skim milk. If you've ever had whole milk (3-4%), it's like drinking cream in comparison to oat milk.
Nutritionally it’s nowhere close.
It isn't, but then again cow's milk and cheese shouldn't, and does not need to be, anyone's primary source of nutrition or caloric intake. The west's notion that children (and even adults) absolutely need milk every day "to grow up healthy" is a misconception.
Nutrition does not equal caloric intake. There's minerals (calcium being an important one) and vitamins (especially fat-soluble ones A-D-E-K) as well as thiamin, riboflavin and vitamin B12. It also contains quite a lot of energy in the form of sugars (lactose) as well as fats but as you already stated this is not the reason why most people use dairy products.
Hence "_or_ caloric intake". The reality of my statement remains. Dairy products are an exception in e.g. Asian children's diets. Most Asian countries view the west's level of dairy consumption as gorging.
Dairy products have the big advantage of being available as long as you can keep a cow or sheep or goat or horse or camel alive which has made them staple foods in some places where food could get scarce because of cold, drought or a generally barren landscape. This is probably also what drove the evolution of a lactose-tolerant branch of Homo Sapiens in these regions as well as the growth of dairy-consuming cultures. The fact that Asian cultures tend to use fewer dairy products can be traced back to the fact that the conditions during the last glacial maximum [1] which gave rise to lactose tolerance mostly occurred in western and northern Europe. They also occurred in northern America but that continent seemingly did not have any humans on it yet.
The mere fact that Asian cultures consider western dairy use to be extreme does not say that much, the same is said in many western cultures about some aspects of Asian food cultures. Fortunately we live in a time when people in east and west can partake in varied food cultures so we get to have cheese fondue one day, char siu the next and gravlax (cured salmon) the day after.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/Fi...
The mere fact that Asian cultures consider western dairy use to be extreme does not say that much, the same is said in many western cultures about some aspects of Asian food cultures. Fortunately we live in a time when people in east and west can partake in varied food cultures so we get to have cheese fondue one day, char siu the next and gravlax (cured salmon) the day after.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Glacial_Maximum#/media/Fi...
Can you expand?
After a very short time with soy milk I now prefer it, especially in my coffee. Try a few different brands. One brand I tried tasted very plant-y and wasn’t that great but the others have been darn good.
Agreed - I've managed to switch for breakfast cereal, but can't quite find something that works as well for coffee. Hazelnut was my favourite, but still not quite as good
Have you tried ‘Silk’? Both Original and Unsweet flavors are good in coffee, according to me.
I've given up milk (although not cheese) and moved to oat milk. Initially it didn't "taste right" but after only a few weeks of sticking with it it's completely normal and I enjoy it on my breakfast cereal, in tea or coffee.
I guarantee if you give it a few weeks it will become normal and enjoyable. It's like giving up sugar in tea or coffee, you soon find it normal and the old flavour slightly less desirable.
If I'm making a smoothie I use soy for the protein, but find it a little tool "plant" for other stuff.
I guarantee if you give it a few weeks it will become normal and enjoyable. It's like giving up sugar in tea or coffee, you soon find it normal and the old flavour slightly less desirable.
If I'm making a smoothie I use soy for the protein, but find it a little tool "plant" for other stuff.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60128075
Plant-milk brand Oatly has been told not to repeat some of its adverts, after complaints to the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) were upheld.
The ads, which used the slogan "Need help talking to dad about milk?", made unsubstantiated environmental claims, the ASA found.
Actually I gave up milk for mainly health and digestive reasons. Environmental and moral reasons very much second, but still there.
I'm aware of the ongoing debate around the true environmental impact of milk alternatives to milk. My family were also dairy farmers until the late 90s when it became economically unviable in the UK without moving to an intensive barn kept model they refused to transition to. So I'm also aware of the economic impact on farmers over the last 30 years.
Very fond memories of going to watch the cows being milked with my grandfather.
Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising).
I'm aware of the ongoing debate around the true environmental impact of milk alternatives to milk. My family were also dairy farmers until the late 90s when it became economically unviable in the UK without moving to an intensive barn kept model they refused to transition to. So I'm also aware of the economic impact on farmers over the last 30 years.
Very fond memories of going to watch the cows being milked with my grandfather.
Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising).
> Dietary choices are a personal thing, all the new options are only good for that (not withstanding misleading advertising).
I have some bad news about oat milk with regards to that as well.
https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy
> A 12-ounce glass of oat milk (the amount in a medium latte) has about the same blood sugar impact as a 12-ounce can of Coke.
Please do be careful. I am not saying Oatly is necessarily worse than milk for you or even bad at all but this was a boring long existing brand taken over by a savvy CEO that turned the marketing up to eleven (gearing up towards an ipo) -- we would all obviously like milk alternatives that are both healthier and have lower carbon footprints and that desire is being exploited to the hilt.
I have some bad news about oat milk with regards to that as well.
https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/is-oatly-healthy
> A 12-ounce glass of oat milk (the amount in a medium latte) has about the same blood sugar impact as a 12-ounce can of Coke.
Please do be careful. I am not saying Oatly is necessarily worse than milk for you or even bad at all but this was a boring long existing brand taken over by a savvy CEO that turned the marketing up to eleven (gearing up towards an ipo) -- we would all obviously like milk alternatives that are both healthier and have lower carbon footprints and that desire is being exploited to the hilt.
What about oat cream? Whipped cream for deserts? Cheese?
Can you explain what imaginary environmental benefits your imaginary fake milk is supposed to have?
Presumably it has to do with methane from cows. This is now beginning to be mitigated with seaweed feed. Otherwise, land-use for cows has been decreasing in the U.S. despite population increase. It has, however, increased in Brazil owing to soybean crops used for feed. That has been contentious because of encroachment into rainforest land, but it's not clear the scope of it really matters. The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare.
When it comes to just flavor profile I'm not surprised there would be some disruption (good use-case for ice cream, a junk food), but there's no real sub for the animal protein (if you care about that). And in terms of calcium content the products are just fortified, so you're paying a premium for what might as well be a supplement.
I've tried a few yogurt alts that tasted alright, and the nutritional content seemed satisfactory fitting into my diet (though nothing for good for kefir yet). Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
When it comes to just flavor profile I'm not surprised there would be some disruption (good use-case for ice cream, a junk food), but there's no real sub for the animal protein (if you care about that). And in terms of calcium content the products are just fortified, so you're paying a premium for what might as well be a supplement.
I've tried a few yogurt alts that tasted alright, and the nutritional content seemed satisfactory fitting into my diet (though nothing for good for kefir yet). Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
There's another interesting approach to the cow-fart problem, this being methane capture for biogas production suitable to run engines from manure storage. With current technology it becomes profitable starting from a population of around 120 cows, at which it supplies about 17.5 tons of (compressed) biogas which is sufficient to run a common-sided tractor for around 1000 hours. This is currently being tested in a pilot project by New Holland on 20 farms in Germany, France and Italy. There are other similar projects in different states of development, the mentioned one should become commercially available in 2024 or possibly this year.
Source: Land Lantbruk #5 2023-01-27 pp 20-21 (lantbruk.se - farmer's weekly in Sweden)
Source: Land Lantbruk #5 2023-01-27 pp 20-21 (lantbruk.se - farmer's weekly in Sweden)
Kudos for providing a useful answer to a question that doesn’t appear to be asked in good faith.
Why on earth is asking such an absolutely necessary question a bad faith thing :/
His reply is good, especially this bit:
> Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
Further down thread I discuss Oatly and their misleading marketing claims. A healthy amount of skepticism towards magical new solutions is very much in order.
The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it.
> The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare.
That is... very difficult to debate as it simply depends on where you are getting your milk from. It is certainly possible to produce milk with perfectly happy cows, if that is the main concern could just advocate and insist on that directly.
His reply is good, especially this bit:
> Of course I'm not keen to spend more on plants than I would for an animal product, and one wonders how green something can be when it includes coconut transported via cargo ships and highly refined ingredients.
Further down thread I discuss Oatly and their misleading marketing claims. A healthy amount of skepticism towards magical new solutions is very much in order.
The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it.
> The most cut and dry benefit to alternatives is far and away animal welfare.
That is... very difficult to debate as it simply depends on where you are getting your milk from. It is certainly possible to produce milk with perfectly happy cows, if that is the main concern could just advocate and insist on that directly.
> Why on earth is asking such an absolutely necessary question a bad faith thing :/
I think the issue is the way you phrased the question. The use of the word "imaginary" is dismissive. You are asking sensible questions and I agree scepticism is important for new things. But careful use of language so as not to dismiss people is also important so as not to alienate people during an important debate.
It's similar with how you replied to my comment with "please do be careful", you may mean it but it can come off as condescending.
I think the issue is the way you phrased the question. The use of the word "imaginary" is dismissive. You are asking sensible questions and I agree scepticism is important for new things. But careful use of language so as not to dismiss people is also important so as not to alienate people during an important debate.
It's similar with how you replied to my comment with "please do be careful", you may mean it but it can come off as condescending.
> If someone made fake milk that tasted like the real thing
Note that he wrote the word fake. It is a hypothetical fake milk. There was no dismissiveness intended.
> It's similar with how you replied to my comment with "please do be careful", you may mean it but it can come off as condescending.
I do in fact mean it. The whole point is that Oatly and other milk alternatives present themselves as healthier but simply replace one set of disadvantages with another and hide it in the fine print.
I will try to take your advice to heart but I do think folks just don't want to hear bad news anymore and shoot the messenger. I guess that in itself is part of the marketing trickery. :/
Anyway sorry if I am a bummer.
Note that he wrote the word fake. It is a hypothetical fake milk. There was no dismissiveness intended.
> It's similar with how you replied to my comment with "please do be careful", you may mean it but it can come off as condescending.
I do in fact mean it. The whole point is that Oatly and other milk alternatives present themselves as healthier but simply replace one set of disadvantages with another and hide it in the fine print.
I will try to take your advice to heart but I do think folks just don't want to hear bad news anymore and shoot the messenger. I guess that in itself is part of the marketing trickery. :/
Anyway sorry if I am a bummer.
Thank you for being a bummer on this occasion. I for one, found strength in your tone.
Thanks to all for the civil discussion. It’s what makes HN valuable for me.
> That is... very difficult to debate
I see no difficulty in it. Alternatives give you 100% confidence of not having animal products in the production chain. The only thing to quibble is the degree to which animals might be harmed in commercial agriculture, which supplies the overwhelming majority of product in North America. Opinionated vegans and consumers in general have a different threshold and definition though (after all bleeding heart vegans would posit that even the "good" sources are harmful in some capacity).
Personally I don't think dairy cows have it that bad, and I'm pro-slaughter. But it's still clear that abstaining from those products gives you far more confidence about animal welfare.
> The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it.
It's true. The only carbon-neutral cow rearing is in the context of allowing cows to migrate to fertilize different lands. This is not the case in commercial agriculture.
I see no difficulty in it. Alternatives give you 100% confidence of not having animal products in the production chain. The only thing to quibble is the degree to which animals might be harmed in commercial agriculture, which supplies the overwhelming majority of product in North America. Opinionated vegans and consumers in general have a different threshold and definition though (after all bleeding heart vegans would posit that even the "good" sources are harmful in some capacity).
Personally I don't think dairy cows have it that bad, and I'm pro-slaughter. But it's still clear that abstaining from those products gives you far more confidence about animal welfare.
> The methane thing is not true and has been debunked as I understand it.
It's true. The only carbon-neutral cow rearing is in the context of allowing cows to migrate to fertilize different lands. This is not the case in commercial agriculture.
Making milk using cows is incredibly inefficient from an energy inputs point of view. You have to grow crops which you feed to cows which then turn a tiny percentage of the input energy into usable food. As a result, it's possible that synthetic milk could be massively more efficient in terms of its climate impact. Not saying it necessary is right now, but it certainly could be.
Methane emissions are also very important as pointed out by another commentor
Methane emissions are also very important as pointed out by another commentor
Really hope it takes of, but I have a sneaking suspicion that at least in USA we will see a huge battle to ensure this does not hit the shelves or its relegated so far away from the other diary products.
Since you got 3 big industries to fight against:
* farmers that rely on cows
* milk brands that have deep pockets and has the government involved beyond regulation
* non-animal diary companies (probably the least hostile one)
Since you got 3 big industries to fight against:
* farmers that rely on cows
* milk brands that have deep pockets and has the government involved beyond regulation
* non-animal diary companies (probably the least hostile one)
I just don’t think it will be popular. It’s just going to be seen as “fake dairy” which will have limited appeal. Don’t need any conspiracy theories to explain it.
Half of what's on the shelf is already called frozen dairy dessert and not ice cream. Drop the word dairy and it's not that much different to the consumer.
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As far as I'm concerned, you can't have dairy with no cow.
Dairy-free faux-dairy products should market themselves for what they are instead of lying.
Dairy-free faux-dairy products should market themselves for what they are instead of lying.
Meaning is use. “Milk” is a fuzzy collection of properties and use cases. Which is why when you say “coconut milk” or “oat milk” people aren’t confused.
Hell, cows aren’t magic. Even “real milk” is just a collection of sugars, proteins, etc. If there’s no difference between the two then what’s the distinction?
Hell, cows aren’t magic. Even “real milk” is just a collection of sugars, proteins, etc. If there’s no difference between the two then what’s the distinction?
It’s not faux dairy in this case. It’s literally the same molecular makeup but from a fermentation process. It is actual dairy.
https://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dairy
4 : milk from a cow or other domestic animal (such as a goat)
also : food (such as ice cream, cheese, or yogurt) made primarily of or from milk
--------------
Dairy specifically means and implies a cow (or similar domestic animal) as the origin of the food product. Where it comes from is just as important as what it is, if not more.
Thus I reiterate: You can't have dairy with no cow.
4 : milk from a cow or other domestic animal (such as a goat)
also : food (such as ice cream, cheese, or yogurt) made primarily of or from milk
--------------
Dairy specifically means and implies a cow (or similar domestic animal) as the origin of the food product. Where it comes from is just as important as what it is, if not more.
Thus I reiterate: You can't have dairy with no cow.
Dictionaries are not prescriptive and are not an authoritative source for the meaning of a word. They will lag behind usage, sometimes for many years. Usage determines meaning, not Webster.
Again, nobody is confused by terms like "coconut milk" or "almond milk".
Again, nobody is confused by terms like "coconut milk" or "almond milk".
They can call this milk all they want, but they can't call this dairy.
The comments I replied to were discussing the likelihood of this stuff sharing the same floor area with dairy products.
The comments I replied to were discussing the likelihood of this stuff sharing the same floor area with dairy products.
Oat milk and other such products have always been sold adjacent to the dairy milk, usually in the same coolers, in literally every grocery store I have ever visited.
That definition is only stated that way because completely synthetic milk is something most people haven't conceived of.
Ok well if we’re talking molecular structure it’s identical so I look forward to Webster adding that meaning in a few years as usage picks up in the English-speaking world.
I've found explaining this to people when I have had some brave robot to be a hard point to hit home for some reason. I'm not sure why.
I don't support products like this.
We know much more about biology than we used to. Incomparably more. But what we know is still very little.
Replacing foods consumed for thousands of years with foods dreamed up in a lab is a fool's errand. We've already seen continual (and ONGOING) health disasters from industrialized foods.
On top of that, there's likely already a lot wrong even with "scientifically"-enhanced modern agriculture that's not processed (animal feed, monocultured crops, pesticide use, topsoil depletion etc. etc.)
We need to stop what we're doing and actually work with the ecologies we have to produce enough food for everyone. I suspect this latest push has a lot more to do with big capital players wanting to centralize food production and remove the dependencies on unpredictable inputs (animals) than any wide-eyed dream about saving the planet.
We know much more about biology than we used to. Incomparably more. But what we know is still very little.
Replacing foods consumed for thousands of years with foods dreamed up in a lab is a fool's errand. We've already seen continual (and ONGOING) health disasters from industrialized foods.
On top of that, there's likely already a lot wrong even with "scientifically"-enhanced modern agriculture that's not processed (animal feed, monocultured crops, pesticide use, topsoil depletion etc. etc.)
We need to stop what we're doing and actually work with the ecologies we have to produce enough food for everyone. I suspect this latest push has a lot more to do with big capital players wanting to centralize food production and remove the dependencies on unpredictable inputs (animals) than any wide-eyed dream about saving the planet.
> We need to stop what we're doing and actually work with the ecologies we have to produce enough food for everyone.
This is that. Dairy cows can’t “scale” to meet a population like ours that keeps growing. They’re enormously inefficient. Agriculture has always been an exercise in optimising to feed growing populations, like when farmers grafted different variations of plant/fruit together to create hybrids. At the time you’d have easily described that as creating a Frankenstein monster. Today we’re just using more advanced tools.
This is that. Dairy cows can’t “scale” to meet a population like ours that keeps growing. They’re enormously inefficient. Agriculture has always been an exercise in optimising to feed growing populations, like when farmers grafted different variations of plant/fruit together to create hybrids. At the time you’d have easily described that as creating a Frankenstein monster. Today we’re just using more advanced tools.
Our population isn’t really growing though. We are actually facing a population growth crisis in the USA and most other developed countries. Malthus seems to have been very wrong and human populations curb their reproduction and don’t just do exponential growth forever.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/12/us-population...
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/12/us-population...
Ok, but the USA is not the entire world where it is growing
Dairy cows do scale. Stop ethanol production and drop soybeans (not part of US diet until recently) and fill the plains with cows. Note they do need to be managed carefully - keep tightly packed herds and don’t allow free range grazing.
Bonus: the topsoil comes back. We stop polluting watersheds with pesticides. We have a healthier diet.
Seeking efficiency in the food supply is exactly the problem destroying the environment, human health, and will eventually lead to a systems collapse and famine.
Bonus: the topsoil comes back. We stop polluting watersheds with pesticides. We have a healthier diet.
Seeking efficiency in the food supply is exactly the problem destroying the environment, human health, and will eventually lead to a systems collapse and famine.
You seem to have thought this through well.
It feels like real dairy is being listed as a necessary casualty to technological/industrial progress at scale and the solutions, such as those that you're introducing, disrupt this sort of progress and its intended benefits. This sort of frustrates me (the theoretical demise of real dairy). I'm picky about my dairy selection as is, but I don't find any comfort in fake dairy (I'm not referring plant, or oat, or nut milk per se, rather lab grown ingredients and anything else that is fermented, stabilized, etc.). I have my own gripes with the dairy industry, but the mere thought of synthetic alternatives becoming the norm irritates me.
How all of this is made to become appealing only upsets me further. I want to get off of this ride!
It feels like real dairy is being listed as a necessary casualty to technological/industrial progress at scale and the solutions, such as those that you're introducing, disrupt this sort of progress and its intended benefits. This sort of frustrates me (the theoretical demise of real dairy). I'm picky about my dairy selection as is, but I don't find any comfort in fake dairy (I'm not referring plant, or oat, or nut milk per se, rather lab grown ingredients and anything else that is fermented, stabilized, etc.). I have my own gripes with the dairy industry, but the mere thought of synthetic alternatives becoming the norm irritates me.
How all of this is made to become appealing only upsets me further. I want to get off of this ride!
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Even if these first products are duds, I think this is the inevitable future, and 'artificial' dairy should end up being cheaper, and even better than the 'real' thing; An explosion of variety tuned for nutrition or taste. Lactose-intolerant milk? Higher-protein milk? Mouse milk? Etc.
And then fruit and other juices, and even pulps and flours.
Agriculture is a major cause of environmental destruction and these technologies could reduce it's footprint very dramatically.
And then fruit and other juices, and even pulps and flours.
Agriculture is a major cause of environmental destruction and these technologies could reduce it's footprint very dramatically.
Kind of like how fake butter turned out better than real butter?
I don't usually add sarcasm tags, but in case you are wondering this was supposed to be sarcasm. Ya I realize there is a huge fake butter industry. And for most people it is good enough, it is not better than real butter.
My partner prefers Country Crock to butter. Like not “it’s convenient“ but even if I cook for them they prefer I use the fake stuff because they like the taste better.
Movie theater butter has absolutely won over real butter in its niche. Pam and its contemporaries are also wildly popular over butter for pan cooking.
All things considered fake butter has got to be one of the most successful vegan alternatives since non-vegans will choose it over butter.
Movie theater butter has absolutely won over real butter in its niche. Pam and its contemporaries are also wildly popular over butter for pan cooking.
All things considered fake butter has got to be one of the most successful vegan alternatives since non-vegans will choose it over butter.
No, not like margarine at all.
I mean biotech technologies that are essentially artificial milk glands, producing something very close to 'real' milk, without cows.
Why grow a whole cow when we just want what the milk glands secrete, why grow a whole tree when we just want orange juice? Etc.
I mean biotech technologies that are essentially artificial milk glands, producing something very close to 'real' milk, without cows.
Why grow a whole cow when we just want what the milk glands secrete, why grow a whole tree when we just want orange juice? Etc.
I prefer olive oil butter over any margarine. For almost all applications, I prefer it over butter.
Isn't "olive oil butter" basically exactly what margarine is? It can also be made with other vegetable oils of course.
I don't prefer it over butter although this is largely a matter of taste, but more importantly IMO, even if it was touted as a healthy alternative to butter in the 70s-80s, today margarine has been shown not to really be better after all. It's not used much anymore by people less than 50 or so, in France.
I think modern margarine is probably better as it doesn't contain much transfats anymore, but in France the damage to its reputation has been done already.
I live in Belgium though and people still use margarine here, but as far as I can't tell it's mostly because they just call everything "butter" and don't know the difference between margarine or butter.
I don't prefer it over butter although this is largely a matter of taste, but more importantly IMO, even if it was touted as a healthy alternative to butter in the 70s-80s, today margarine has been shown not to really be better after all. It's not used much anymore by people less than 50 or so, in France.
I think modern margarine is probably better as it doesn't contain much transfats anymore, but in France the damage to its reputation has been done already.
I live in Belgium though and people still use margarine here, but as far as I can't tell it's mostly because they just call everything "butter" and don't know the difference between margarine or butter.
Health wise margarine's much better for you than butter, that's pretty uncontroversial. Partially hydrogenated margarines contain trans fats which are terrible for you, but they've been off the shelves for literal decades now.
Lactose free milk is widely available in the US, and has been for at least a decade (when I started paying attention).
Lactaid is the primary brand, but there are plenty of store brands as well. Iirc, it’s created by treating regular enzymes to regular milk that break lactose down into simpler sugars.
It comes with maybe a 25-50% markup. Taste wise, it is a bit sweeter than regular milk, but otherwise indistinguishable. Oddly, it also lasts much longer than regular milk before going bad.
Lactaid is the primary brand, but there are plenty of store brands as well. Iirc, it’s created by treating regular enzymes to regular milk that break lactose down into simpler sugars.
It comes with maybe a 25-50% markup. Taste wise, it is a bit sweeter than regular milk, but otherwise indistinguishable. Oddly, it also lasts much longer than regular milk before going bad.
Europe has had many brands doing decent non-dairy ice cream for a decade now - some products even being absolutely delicious - but this certainly looks like one step up the culinary ladder.
I saw an ad on FB for this a couple months back. I've been vegan for 20 years and have no interest in it
Could you expand on that? I would think that it being non-animal produced would be at least interesting, even if you ultimately decide you don't like the products for whatever reason
Not OP but at least for me, over time meat, dairy, etc become so deeply associated with the nightmare of industrial scale animal agriculture that they loose their aesthetic appeal. I know it’s surprising, and it happens slowly, but it happens.
It's very interesting and exciting but I have no interest in trying these products. I'm happy with what I have and have no desire to consume meat or dairy even if there was no suffering in the production of it.
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