Your iPhone Was Built with Child Labor(thefp.com)
thefp.com
Your iPhone Was Built with Child Labor
https://www.thefp.com/p/your-iphone-was-built-with-child
50 comments
In some of these countries, going to school might give you a less prosperous life. How should the typical westerner deal with these facts?
Hold the corps to account, vote with your wallet, demand that they reinvest profits in education and betterment and development of these geographic areas.
So where do you start? Your phone? Computer? Clothes? Car? Food?
Clothes is a nice and easy one to begin with choosing an alternative for because it's a much more simplistic product with a more easily traced supply chain. Phones, computers and cars are something we'll likely struggle with for a long time.
For anything else, the public will likely need to demand change as I doubt a superior or equal alternative will emerge. With that said, products like the FairPhone are very interesting, though I haven't used one.
Food is something that'll largely hinge on your geographic area and availability of produce that makes sense.
For anything else, the public will likely need to demand change as I doubt a superior or equal alternative will emerge. With that said, products like the FairPhone are very interesting, though I haven't used one.
Food is something that'll largely hinge on your geographic area and availability of produce that makes sense.
Anything, I would say.
This is great information and everything, but it seems like you're deflecting. Your smartphone was still made by child labor.
I think his point is that given the context that everything is involved with child labor somehow, pointing out just one particular item isn't very helpful.
More nuances about iphone being a luxury brand and therefore less justifiable and more "disgusting" can be added. But like how you said it above, it doesn't change the fact that the very economy and the comfort we are enjoying partly come from child labor.
More nuances about iphone being a luxury brand and therefore less justifiable and more "disgusting" can be added. But like how you said it above, it doesn't change the fact that the very economy and the comfort we are enjoying partly come from child labor.
I am giving the GP the benefit of the doubt and don't think they are engaging in child labor whataboutism, but I also think they should write in a way that does not invite the qualification of "I think his point is...".
>pointing out just one particular item isn't very helpful
It absolutely is. And pointing out more is even better!
>pointing out just one particular item isn't very helpful
It absolutely is. And pointing out more is even better!
> It absolutely is. And pointing out more is even better.
I don’t see how.
If I point out your PC, car, house, office, etc are all likely built in some small way from child labor you’re going to do what exactly?
There’s plenty of documentation for many egregious cases, but when you look at the full supply chain for anything it quickly starts to look like the global economy as a whole. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-o...
I don’t see how.
If I point out your PC, car, house, office, etc are all likely built in some small way from child labor you’re going to do what exactly?
There’s plenty of documentation for many egregious cases, but when you look at the full supply chain for anything it quickly starts to look like the global economy as a whole. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-o...
And are the deplorable conditions suddenly a-ok the day they turn 18?
Child labor is somewhat orthogonal to deplorable conditions. Child actors can easily fit the definition.
There’s also an unfortunate cultural bias where people may view for example Amish children skipping school to take in a harvest as perfectly acceptable when kids in developing economies doing the same things are suddenly not.
There’s also an unfortunate cultural bias where people may view for example Amish children skipping school to take in a harvest as perfectly acceptable when kids in developing economies doing the same things are suddenly not.
It's a symptom of a larger disease. Focus on the disease, not the symptom.
You lost me, how do Child Actors fit into your analogy? Or do you mean curtail bias?
Fever is a symptom. Viral pneumonia is a disease.
Child labor is a symptom. Unchecked hypercapitalism is a disease.
Child labor is a symptom. Unchecked hypercapitalism is a disease.
Child labor existed long before capitalism. If anything the correlation goes in the other direction with capitalism reducing child labor over time due to it’s dependence on an educated workforce.
While your first statement is true, I'm not sure it follows that there's a reverse correlation.
In fact, I think (having actually changed my response a couple of times while thinking it through) that unless you go back far enough that you're talking about genuine subsistence agriculture, the reasons for child labor are very similar in both cases: The wealthy and powerful take so much of the output of the laborers that without children working as well, there wouldn't be enough money to put food on the table. (Or simply enough food to put on the table.)
We produce enough, as a society, to provide for everyone. Feeding the world in 2023 is a distribution problem. Children are put to work not because it's necessary, but because the few at the top have taken, and continue to gatekeep, so much from the rest of us that too many families don't have a choice.
That's not really different between 2023 and 1023, from where I sit.
In fact, I think (having actually changed my response a couple of times while thinking it through) that unless you go back far enough that you're talking about genuine subsistence agriculture, the reasons for child labor are very similar in both cases: The wealthy and powerful take so much of the output of the laborers that without children working as well, there wouldn't be enough money to put food on the table. (Or simply enough food to put on the table.)
We produce enough, as a society, to provide for everyone. Feeding the world in 2023 is a distribution problem. Children are put to work not because it's necessary, but because the few at the top have taken, and continue to gatekeep, so much from the rest of us that too many families don't have a choice.
That's not really different between 2023 and 1023, from where I sit.
> capitalism reducing child labor over time due to it’s dependence on an educated workforce.
Dependence on an educated workforce is orthogonal to the economic system. Rather it's a corollary of scientific and technological advancement.
Dependence on an educated workforce is orthogonal to the economic system. Rather it's a corollary of scientific and technological advancement.
> Child actors can easily fit the definition.
Yes, and they often work under deplorable conditions. Psychological/emotional abuse is still abuse (not to mention the forced dieting, the rampant molestation/rape, and other very physical abuses).
But that highlights what makes child labor more worthy of scrutiny. Adult actors face those same conditions, and it's unacceptable that they do, but at least they have the mental maturity to cope with them and the social/legal autonomy to do something about them. Child actors lack any of that; they end up scarred for life over a career they had little choice in pursuing.
Yes, and they often work under deplorable conditions. Psychological/emotional abuse is still abuse (not to mention the forced dieting, the rampant molestation/rape, and other very physical abuses).
But that highlights what makes child labor more worthy of scrutiny. Adult actors face those same conditions, and it's unacceptable that they do, but at least they have the mental maturity to cope with them and the social/legal autonomy to do something about them. Child actors lack any of that; they end up scarred for life over a career they had little choice in pursuing.
> often work under deplorable conditions
Often isn’t always. Those abuses aren’t some inherent requirement for child acting to exist.
Often isn’t always. Those abuses aren’t some inherent requirement for child acting to exist.
Who here is looking to be helped on this particular issue?
>Your smartphone was still made by child labor.
that's mighty presumptuous.
and listing other child labor profiteers has a point : it illustrates that perhaps we should probably look for and fix the root causes of child labor rather than punishing a single perpetrator.
that's mighty presumptuous.
and listing other child labor profiteers has a point : it illustrates that perhaps we should probably look for and fix the root causes of child labor rather than punishing a single perpetrator.
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Anything created under Capitalism is probably morally repulsive on one level or another. I vote to get rid of it entirely, if we can only come up with a better solution.
For now, I personally try to participate as little as possible in it.
For now, I personally try to participate as little as possible in it.
Disagree with me all you want, but if you reply with a point, I'll be honest with a counterpoint.
It's good to raise awareness but it's not recent news.
- Foxconn ships poor people from rural areas to mega factories, take their identity documents, and essentially holds them hostage.
- Up the supply chain, small-scale miners of rare earth minerals risk their lives and die everyday.
- Consumer cognitive dissonance allows billions of people to eat hamburgers without considering the impact of their choices.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-30540538
- Foxconn ships poor people from rural areas to mega factories, take their identity documents, and essentially holds them hostage.
- Up the supply chain, small-scale miners of rare earth minerals risk their lives and die everyday.
- Consumer cognitive dissonance allows billions of people to eat hamburgers without considering the impact of their choices.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-30540538
> Foxconn ships poor people from rural areas to mega factories
They don't have to ship them, the poor people from rural areas come looking for better jobs in the mega factories. Nothing wrong with that.
> take their identity documents, and essentially holds them hostage.
This is a huge deal which many Chinese companies used to practice even just 10 years ago. I don't think it is very common now, the government did crack down on it, to stop making it a norm business practice.
That was 2014. Things aren't perfect now, but better than back then.
They don't have to ship them, the poor people from rural areas come looking for better jobs in the mega factories. Nothing wrong with that.
> take their identity documents, and essentially holds them hostage.
This is a huge deal which many Chinese companies used to practice even just 10 years ago. I don't think it is very common now, the government did crack down on it, to stop making it a norm business practice.
That was 2014. Things aren't perfect now, but better than back then.
> It's good to raise awareness but it's not recent news. [...]
> Child labor in the… [...]
Have you read the article?
To me –pardon my subjectivity and don't take this as a personal attack please – this sounds like it can can be paraphrased with "I don't care".
The article paints a pretty strong picture not only of child labor and slavery but also of the environmental devastation and violence around the harvesting of raw materials in all these countries.
It also mentions electric vehicles, which have batteries that make iPhone batteries seem like a drop in the ocean in size comparison, and are celebrated as green progress.
> How should the typical westerner deal with these facts?
Maybe not buy unneeded batteries and advocate for honest regulation and a stop to reckless growth based on slave labour and environmental destruction?
Maybe stop pretending that capitalism would represent liberty and freedom, when it is built on destruction, unsustainability and slave labor?
For some reason, people can read such an article and claim that they know anything about reasonable environmental policy a couple of hours later, minutes even.
Sorry for the rant, but it makes me sick to follow debate about these topics.
Writing this from a device containing the same minerals that the article is about, duh.
> Hold the corps to account, vote with your wallet, demand that they reinvest profits in education and betterment and development of these geographic areas.
This is a poltical issue on a global scale. As long as it is allowed to reap profit from exploitation, outsource slave labor and environmental destruction and call this "free market", nothing will change.
I welcome everyone who reduces his/her participation in the global exploitation of poverty and the environment, but without political action it is all smoke and mirrors.
> Child labor in the… [...]
Have you read the article?
To me –pardon my subjectivity and don't take this as a personal attack please – this sounds like it can can be paraphrased with "I don't care".
The article paints a pretty strong picture not only of child labor and slavery but also of the environmental devastation and violence around the harvesting of raw materials in all these countries.
It also mentions electric vehicles, which have batteries that make iPhone batteries seem like a drop in the ocean in size comparison, and are celebrated as green progress.
> How should the typical westerner deal with these facts?
Maybe not buy unneeded batteries and advocate for honest regulation and a stop to reckless growth based on slave labour and environmental destruction?
Maybe stop pretending that capitalism would represent liberty and freedom, when it is built on destruction, unsustainability and slave labor?
For some reason, people can read such an article and claim that they know anything about reasonable environmental policy a couple of hours later, minutes even.
Sorry for the rant, but it makes me sick to follow debate about these topics.
Writing this from a device containing the same minerals that the article is about, duh.
> Hold the corps to account, vote with your wallet, demand that they reinvest profits in education and betterment and development of these geographic areas.
This is a poltical issue on a global scale. As long as it is allowed to reap profit from exploitation, outsource slave labor and environmental destruction and call this "free market", nothing will change.
I welcome everyone who reduces his/her participation in the global exploitation of poverty and the environment, but without political action it is all smoke and mirrors.
Does this article contradict Apple's 2017 change in suppliers
https://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
https://fortune.com/2017/03/03/apple-cobalt-child-labor/
This article says that 70% of Cobalt comes from the Congo and “no way” can they avoid the taint of this.
So no, they don’t care that Apple changed suppliers for Cobalt to avoid this very issue.
Also the recent news that Apple is aggressively pursuing 100% recycled Cobalt.
So no, they don’t care that Apple changed suppliers for Cobalt to avoid this very issue.
Also the recent news that Apple is aggressively pursuing 100% recycled Cobalt.
Amnesty International report from 2017. Apple is the top rated consumer electronics company (page 78 for all the companies together, 94 focuses on consumer electronics):
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/AFR627...
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/AFR627...
Looks like Samsung is rated just as high
For those moaning about the title, the use of iPhone as an icon of uncaring capitalism is not the takeaway here.
The exploitation and ravaging of people and environments enabled by PR-friendly phrase-fiddling ("oh we only use virtuous suppliers") is.
Yes, it's classic clickbait, but more power to it if it brings eyes that would have otherwise passed by. Butthurt iPhone and smug Android owners alike will be snared in the trap, the brand is just the bait.
It has us, now read and consider.
The exploitation and ravaging of people and environments enabled by PR-friendly phrase-fiddling ("oh we only use virtuous suppliers") is.
Yes, it's classic clickbait, but more power to it if it brings eyes that would have otherwise passed by. Butthurt iPhone and smug Android owners alike will be snared in the trap, the brand is just the bait.
It has us, now read and consider.
I really hoped this was common knowledge. Guess it wasn't.
It's common knowledge for a lot of people, but there's new people reaching a state where they have compassion for others every day, that's a positive thing, thus we need to make this information available to them to understand what's wrong with the world.
What makes you say that?
Wouldn't it be great if everyone, or at least most people knew and cared about what was going on behind the scenes in making in iPhone?
Just like every single other item you own.
Children get money, I get a good product. It's a win win situation.
> Children get money
In exchange for extremely dangerous working conditions that can and usually do irreparable damage for life. It's hardly a "win" for a kid to grow up doing this for money, and have horrible health issues after the age of 30, making their remaining life miserable.
In exchange for extremely dangerous working conditions that can and usually do irreparable damage for life. It's hardly a "win" for a kid to grow up doing this for money, and have horrible health issues after the age of 30, making their remaining life miserable.
Then they shouldn't take that job. The working conditions should be made clear ahead of time so that an informed decision can be made.
>Then they shouldn't take that job.
I think it depends on where in the supply chain kids are participating. If the work is dangerous (ex. mining), they should be banned but if there is a learning experience with little risk of long term negative consequences, it should be available for the interested.
I enjoyed the computer work and newspaper route I had as a child and wouldve probably jumped at the opportunity to assemble digital devices.
I think it depends on where in the supply chain kids are participating. If the work is dangerous (ex. mining), they should be banned but if there is a learning experience with little risk of long term negative consequences, it should be available for the interested.
I enjoyed the computer work and newspaper route I had as a child and wouldve probably jumped at the opportunity to assemble digital devices.
So child labor laws are unnecessary if they benefit you?
If everyone is benefiting from something and no one is being harmed then yes I do believe the laws are unnecessary.
The benefits and detriments the children get by working are not equal to those they could get if they were able to get an education and have free time to play, instead.
"This is beneficial enough that some people choose it" and "this is a genuine good thing for those people, compared to the other options" are not equivalent.
"This is beneficial enough that some people choose it" and "this is a genuine good thing for those people, compared to the other options" are not equivalent.
Did you spend your childhood in a sweatshop as well?
I had my own side hustles as a child. I preferred computer related work instead of manual labor. Since I was good at what I did no one cared about my age.
Fashion and footwear industry: https://labs.theguardian.com/unicef-child-labour/
Shrimp processing: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/dec/14/s...
Mining: https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---asia/---ro-bangk...
And everything else: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ilab/reports/child-labor/list-o...