Recycled denim: a breakthrough?(voguebusiness.com)
voguebusiness.com
Recycled denim: a breakthrough?
https://www.voguebusiness.com/sustainability/recycled-denim-have-pangaia-and-evrnu-made-a-big-breakthrough
58 comments
Thanks - the article doesn't make clear how they are recycling denim. They say that their product can be recycled in the same way as the original denim, but they don't say that's because they've reduced it to rayon.
They're making out that they're making new denim from old denim. In that respect, it's deceptive.
They're making out that they're making new denim from old denim. In that respect, it's deceptive.
Lyocell is technically in the rayon family but it's got roughly double the tensile strength of viscose (common) rayon. You can see the difference with an electron microscope:
https://www.undershirts.co.uk/blogs/research/viscose-vs-moda...
Having owned several articles of clothing made from both, they're very much not the same — in particular, lyocell lasts a lot longer.
https://www.undershirts.co.uk/blogs/research/viscose-vs-moda...
Having owned several articles of clothing made from both, they're very much not the same — in particular, lyocell lasts a lot longer.
Reduce - buy jeans that last a lifetime.
Reuse - buy your jeans from a thrift store.
Recycle - this?
So it’s the last choice, but most clothes today just end up in the trash, since durability is fairly awful. Even after one wash some clothes start to lose their shape and color. What will the durability of recycled clothes look like if the recycling inputs are so poor? Will people pay any less for these clothes?
I wonder if brands will be trying to recycle clothes that have never been worn but went out of fashion?
So it’s the last choice, but most clothes today just end up in the trash, since durability is fairly awful. Even after one wash some clothes start to lose their shape and color. What will the durability of recycled clothes look like if the recycling inputs are so poor? Will people pay any less for these clothes?
I wonder if brands will be trying to recycle clothes that have never been worn but went out of fashion?
We're past the point of innovating for a better consumer product. Most innovations nowadays are to reduce to cost while getting the consumer to accept the downgrade. Usually it happens gradually using the "boiling frog" method.
You have reminded me about old jeans and those that collect them.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/cache-of-19th-century...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/cache-of-19th-century...
I don't think it's realistic for you to expect your jeans to last a lifetime.
I buy decent jeans once a year. The new pair is for daily wear. The old pair is retired for manual labor. The old-old pair is retired to when I crawl under the house.
I buy decent jeans once a year. The new pair is for daily wear. The old pair is retired for manual labor. The old-old pair is retired to when I crawl under the house.
I usually have 3 decent (not super cheap, but nothing expensive, 40-80€) pairs at a time, they usually last around 10 years, with taking them to get fixed once or twice.
> I don't think it's realistic for you to expect your jeans to last a lifetime.
> I buy decent jeans once a year.
WHAT? I have jeans I got 10 years ago and are still good. And they weren't even expensive
> I buy decent jeans once a year.
WHAT? I have jeans I got 10 years ago and are still good. And they weren't even expensive
May have to do with how often you wear them. For a few years I wore jeans every damn day, unless there was a funeral or something, and I had a similar rotation: two pairs "active" at a time (with maybe one reserve pair in case the lesser of those two got ruined, assuming I had any older ones that were still wearable)—one for light duty, one for heavy duty, order a new pair of 501s when they're on sale about once a year, they become the new light-duty pair, everything else shifts down, oldest become rags or get thrown out (they were never in good-enough shape to donate, by the time they were leaving my closet).
~$40/yr wasn't so bad.
[EDIT] Oh, and for the record, I minimized washing, though I wasn't as hardcore about it as some people who claim to go months between washes. Every wash seemed to age them a couple weeks worth of wearing.
These days, I wear a lot more wool, linen, and cotton/linen blends for light-duty, and wear a single pair of Prana Zions (very thin mid-tier hiking pants, synthetic material) for anything risky/dirty. The Zions are probably at something like 1,000 wears (for the first couple years I wore them kinda like I had my jeans before—for everything) over five years or so. About a penny per wear. Finally due to be replaced, starting to get enough holes that they're getting iffy for wearing around... people, at all. If I hadn't damaged them with sharp things a few times, they'd probably go another 500+ wears, they're not getting worn-looking anywhere, no stains have proven permanent, nor is any part of them fraying (except at the holes).
~$40/yr wasn't so bad.
[EDIT] Oh, and for the record, I minimized washing, though I wasn't as hardcore about it as some people who claim to go months between washes. Every wash seemed to age them a couple weeks worth of wearing.
These days, I wear a lot more wool, linen, and cotton/linen blends for light-duty, and wear a single pair of Prana Zions (very thin mid-tier hiking pants, synthetic material) for anything risky/dirty. The Zions are probably at something like 1,000 wears (for the first couple years I wore them kinda like I had my jeans before—for everything) over five years or so. About a penny per wear. Finally due to be replaced, starting to get enough holes that they're getting iffy for wearing around... people, at all. If I hadn't damaged them with sharp things a few times, they'd probably go another 500+ wears, they're not getting worn-looking anywhere, no stains have proven permanent, nor is any part of them fraying (except at the holes).
What do you do in your jeans?
I wear the same pair daily to do pretty much everything. I work, I shop, pick the kids up, walk to my parents house, do yard work, hike, literally everything in the same pair of jeans. I don't think there's a fabric yet made that could withstand the abuse I put on them for more than a year.
Although this pair I'm about to replace is at 16 months so I will revise to say "about a year"
I wear the same pair daily to do pretty much everything. I work, I shop, pick the kids up, walk to my parents house, do yard work, hike, literally everything in the same pair of jeans. I don't think there's a fabric yet made that could withstand the abuse I put on them for more than a year.
Although this pair I'm about to replace is at 16 months so I will revise to say "about a year"
I have a pair of jeans I still wear around the house that are more than twenty years old. The newer ones don't seem as durable.
This worked for me right up till I had kids. Now, with daily spillage, I'm washing the darned things to death.
Tip: Wash in cold water on the lowest-impact cycle, hang up to dry. Of course I don't know your materials, washer, etc., but for me, everything comes clean with (what seems like) very little impact on the clothing.
I’ll try the hang-drying; appreciate it. Cold water def helps. There’s not much I can do about the frequency, alas.
Try the delicate cycle, too (in case I wasn't clear above). I wash almost all my clothes that way and they come clean.
Word for word how I describe my own clothing methodology to others. Rock on good fellow.
One thing sustainability, fashion and denim: we could start by not artificially preusing it.
Also: is it me or about 20 years ago a pair of jeans lasted way longer than they currently do? Maybe thinner materials were introduced for softness?
Also: is it me or about 20 years ago a pair of jeans lasted way longer than they currently do? Maybe thinner materials were introduced for softness?
About ten years ago was the first time I owned a pair of jeans that I was cold in. Unfortunately they were Patagonia, which makes no goddamn sense. And yet here we are.
Recently they flip flopped and Patagonia has the heaviest jeans I’ve ever seen. To rival Carhart. But they’re also a weird blend of cellulose derived fiber and recycled plastic. Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent.
Recently they flip flopped and Patagonia has the heaviest jeans I’ve ever seen. To rival Carhart. But they’re also a weird blend of cellulose derived fiber and recycled plastic. Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent.
> Not a fan of the plastic, recycled or no it’s going out my dryer vent.
Exactly. In the end, it ends up as micro-plastics in the water
Exactly. In the end, it ends up as micro-plastics in the water
True denim is deeply uncomfortable when it's brand new. Anybody 50 or older will remember having to break in stiff pants that left blue marks on your thighs. Pre-washed jeans are a lot more comfortable on the first day.
These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers. And I get the impression that many aren't even really broken in; the color patterns are woven into them to mimic that look.
Now, literally pre-ripped pants... that I'll admit seems like a real waste. I can offer no defense for that.
These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers. And I get the impression that many aren't even really broken in; the color patterns are woven into them to mimic that look.
Now, literally pre-ripped pants... that I'll admit seems like a real waste. I can offer no defense for that.
> These days jeans always include at least some stretchy fibers
Definitely not so. A basic pair of Kirkland 14.5oz denim jeans from Costco ($13.99!) are still 100% cotton. Dad jeans though they may be, they are my favorite jeans nowadays. For one, they still include enough belt loops, something that many other manufacturers (cough Levi cough) have been skimping on.
Definitely not so. A basic pair of Kirkland 14.5oz denim jeans from Costco ($13.99!) are still 100% cotton. Dad jeans though they may be, they are my favorite jeans nowadays. For one, they still include enough belt loops, something that many other manufacturers (cough Levi cough) have been skimping on.
In men’s jeans I’d say non-cotton materials are much more common now.
I’m not sure if they wear out faster, but they don’t feel very comfortable on my body compared to a normal pair of jeans once broken in. I’m not sure how denim weight (thinness) in a typical pair of jeans has changed in the past 20 years, but that is sort of a double edged sword. You may think, ah these will wear longer, and they will in most cases, but they’re also warmer. Heavyweight denim can be pretty sweaty.
I fabric “normal” jeans without elastane or polyester are pretty easy to find if you pay attention, they have to say their material on the tag.
I fabric “normal” jeans without elastane or polyester are pretty easy to find if you pay attention, they have to say their material on the tag.
Jeans also started getting skinnier/slimmer 20 years ago, and that trend demanded thinner and stretchier fabrics. Thick, baggy work jeans are no doubt more durable but not fashionable.
Jeans went skinny in the eighties but not to the extent now. I never followed fashion trends, but as an amateur cyclist my thighs simply would not fit in a pair of 501’s. I was the first kid anywhere in my social circle or school to wear 550’s, a full year before anyone else discovered baggy pants.
Painful clothing is fucking bullshit.
Painful clothing is fucking bullshit.
It's actually become hard to find proper work jeans with no synthetic content now, even the baggy stuff where fit isn't so important. All of Duluth's stuff is part spandex or polyester now. Most Carhartt contains spandex or polyester, always check if it's important. Even if it's only a few percent, it's going to make cancer fumes if you're doing hot work.
Fabric manufacturers trending towards thinner and stretchier fabrics is primarily driven by production factors. Most dramatically, cutting the fabric. Stretchy fabrics are more accommodating to lay out flat for cutting, and thinner fabrics increase layer count in cut stacks [0]. Cutting thick stacks like this isn't remotely consistent, and why different instances of the same size garmet often vary in fit and size. Stretchy fabrics can be made with less precision and still "fit", reducing quality constraints to allow cheaper methods.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE
Fabric manufacturers trending towards thinner and stretchier fabrics is primarily driven by production factors. Most dramatically, cutting the fabric. Stretchy fabrics are more accommodating to lay out flat for cutting, and thinner fabrics increase layer count in cut stacks [0]. Cutting thick stacks like this isn't remotely consistent, and why different instances of the same size garmet often vary in fit and size. Stretchy fabrics can be made with less precision and still "fit", reducing quality constraints to allow cheaper methods.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iRa2fWVSNE
Most are dramatically thinner and more comfortable now (slight stretch, more tolerant of more temperatures, significantly softer and more flexible, etc).
They've become daily normal-comfort normal-fashion wear rather than work wear. Of course they aren't as durable on average - it's a completely different material at this point, sold for a different purpose.
Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name.
They've become daily normal-comfort normal-fashion wear rather than work wear. Of course they aren't as durable on average - it's a completely different material at this point, sold for a different purpose.
Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name.
> Durable stuff still exists, it's just harder to find because it shares the same name.
I've got to believe one of the most commonly available jeans in the US are the Kirland ones, and they're just plain 100% cotton denim. Mid-weight, 14.5oz, but plenty durable.
I've got to believe one of the most commonly available jeans in the US are the Kirland ones, and they're just plain 100% cotton denim. Mid-weight, 14.5oz, but plenty durable.
Current denim fabrics typically contain some 5% elastane, which gives a bit of strechiness, but doesn't last that long.
Stretchy jeans make me angry. Stretchy jeans for men make me furious.
Why does the free market and comfortable clothing options make you furious?
For me it's because good quality clothing has become prohibitively expensive. The market has polarized into cheap low quality clothing and ultra expensive high end clothing.
> Stretchy jeans for men make me furious.
If it's about being quality, why only for men though?
If it's about being quality, why only for men though?
> If it's about being quality, why only for men though?
That's not what I said.
While what you think I said is not a good look, neither is a white man trying to dictate what women wear. The elastic jeans thing is a ship that sailed a long time ago.
Also if you’ve ever shopped with women, the amount of effort that goes into finding a pair that fit at all is appalling. Elastic gives you a fudge factor to buy pants that don’t actually fit but do.
That's not what I said.
While what you think I said is not a good look, neither is a white man trying to dictate what women wear. The elastic jeans thing is a ship that sailed a long time ago.
Also if you’ve ever shopped with women, the amount of effort that goes into finding a pair that fit at all is appalling. Elastic gives you a fudge factor to buy pants that don’t actually fit but do.
Hmm…
In my experience, good quality clothing can be found near unfathomably cheap (in the U.S. atleast) at estate sales in/around historically middle-upper class neighborhoods of cities. Or rich zip codes in general.
It’s even better if you’re a bit smaller than average or in good physical shape - you can simply buy larger articles made of quality materials & self-tailor or pay a bit to have them fitted to your body.
You may miss some small QoL improvements & gimmicks modern day clothing can have, like recessed pockets with near invisible zippers or tucked away phone holders, but those can also be added by anybody who’s decent at handiwork.
Building your own wardrobe is fairly easy this way IMO - I don’t think I could say the same for supplying an entire family though.
In my experience, good quality clothing can be found near unfathomably cheap (in the U.S. atleast) at estate sales in/around historically middle-upper class neighborhoods of cities. Or rich zip codes in general.
It’s even better if you’re a bit smaller than average or in good physical shape - you can simply buy larger articles made of quality materials & self-tailor or pay a bit to have them fitted to your body.
You may miss some small QoL improvements & gimmicks modern day clothing can have, like recessed pockets with near invisible zippers or tucked away phone holders, but those can also be added by anybody who’s decent at handiwork.
Building your own wardrobe is fairly easy this way IMO - I don’t think I could say the same for supplying an entire family though.
Another way to get comfy clothes is to buy the right size.
I have my jeans made from Japanese denim at a local tailor in Berlin. The guy is a master, the seams and linings are perfect and last forever.
The oldest pair he made for me is from 2014. It looks like new still.
I pay between 80–150€ per pair depending on fabric price and gimmicks I ask for (e.g. pockets under the waist belt, extra coin pockets, etc.).
One thing I always do is have him add a hem from some high endurance material (>50k Martindale or the like) at the inseam.
This is where most jeans come apart and start looking like they shouldn't be worn anymore as this is the area that rubs against the shoes or ground and gets exposed to the elements most.
The oldest pair he made for me is from 2014. It looks like new still.
I pay between 80–150€ per pair depending on fabric price and gimmicks I ask for (e.g. pockets under the waist belt, extra coin pockets, etc.).
One thing I always do is have him add a hem from some high endurance material (>50k Martindale or the like) at the inseam.
This is where most jeans come apart and start looking like they shouldn't be worn anymore as this is the area that rubs against the shoes or ground and gets exposed to the elements most.
Why does this smell like greenwashing, where it takes more resources to recycle this cotton vs just grow some more?
> a natural product that’s made from cellulose and outperform synthetic materials
ah, marketing speech: this is a semi-synthetic material, like we've had for decades.
Better to recycle old jeans than throwing them away, but it's not the same kind of recycling as glass.
ah, marketing speech: this is a semi-synthetic material, like we've had for decades.
Better to recycle old jeans than throwing them away, but it's not the same kind of recycling as glass.
I've completely stopped wearing cotton. Everything I wear is now polyester and elastane. Socks, underwear, trousers, boots, t-shirts, mid-layers, jackets, hats - all of it. I know this has it's own issues with micro plastics but the clothes are way comfier, take up less space, are less prone to stains, are quicker to dry, hold heat when wet and are more durable to boot. Personally I think it's the way forward.
Interesting, I've done almost the exact opposite. The only article that I still buy synthetics for is underwear because the synthetic blends for those are very well tuned, but for things like shirts polyester tends to irritate my skin more easily, accumulates static electricity (and thus track cat fuzz) like crazy, gets uncomfortable when it's warm out, and pills badly after a few washes. For all that cotton works way better for me.
Maybe it comes down to differences in climate and body physiology.
Maybe it comes down to differences in climate and body physiology.
Everything I wear is made by either Under Armour (trousers, socks, shorts, underwear, tops, hats), GoRuck (boots, jackets, polos), Patagonia (mid-layers/jackets) or Carhartt (hat) so I think that’s probably a big component of why I haven’t had any breathability or durability issues. I live in UK so weather isn’t too extreme here. I tend be fairly sensitive to cold but handle hot weather easily.
I prefer cotton because for some reason polyester makes me sweat a lot
I hope it isn’t the way forward - little bits of it come off when washing and drying. Micro plastic galore.
This problem can be pretty easily solved with finer washing machine filters and/or guppyfriend bags.
Sort of, burying that waste is better but far from perfect.
It takes 600 years to biodegrade which is nothing in the overall scheme of things. Scientists also seem to be well on their way to creating a bacteria that consumes plastic. Personally I think plastic waste is going to be a mostly solved issue within the next 25 years.
Do you know of any research on that?
There are a variety of commercial products already available to buy:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=washing...
https://en.guppyfriend.com
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=washing...
https://en.guppyfriend.com
I agree to a point: polyester blends tend to hold their color better and smell better. They also tend to be constructed better as I've had too many issues with cotton shirts that get holes in them or get wrinkled too easily. I'm not sure if I agree on the comfort though, which is why I tend to go with a blend.
Try on some Under Armour 5 Pocket Drive Pants if you get the opportunity, I’d be surprised if you wanted to go back to jeans (for comfort reasons at least).
Thanks, I like their polo shirts so it won't hurt to try on their pants as well, even if it makes me look like I just got back from playing 18.
IME they absorb and hold oders much more than cotton. Are some synthetics better at that?
[deleted]
i have dickies workpants i bought 15 years ago still going strong :)
If you ever wondered about the claim that denim is self cleaning, it refers to the use of methylene blue being used as a dye, "dye" being synonymous with the word "drug" in the 1800's as it was also the first man made drug in the world.
Whilst it has a variety of properties, when exposed to near infrared light (red light) because it penetrates the tissue more deeply, MB's activity greatly increases its anti bacterial, anti viral, anti cytokine, anti-fungal, anti depressant (MAOI), and more activity. Its a rapid electro donor, some 30times faster than auto oxidation in the mitochondria, and unlike vit C, another electron donor, it increases the conversion of ferric iron (state3) into ferrous (state2) iron helping to improve physical performance which is why its an effective treatment for methemoglobinemia.
The main reason it fell out of medical fashion? The blue stain gets everywhere! Used extensively by the US Navy, it even helped coin its own saying "Even at the loo, we see, we pee, navy blue".
But this is how denim was self cleaning, leave the clothing out in the sun and the dye got to work on the bacteria you'd find in your clothes, and whilst copper rivets in jeans were used to hold the clothes together in a rugged fashion, the copper also helped play its part in being an antibacterial implement.
Whilst the medical profession are revisiting it, its cited as cancerous, but this was based on a lifelong study on F344 rats which are a 1920's breed of rat, that were inbred and predisposed to various cancers and thus became one of the cancer model rats. This appears to be a form of vested interest manipulation by some sectors of the scientific community in order to manipulate decision makers so much so its enough for Canada and the UK to ban it!
But that is how Denim self cleans.
Whilst it has a variety of properties, when exposed to near infrared light (red light) because it penetrates the tissue more deeply, MB's activity greatly increases its anti bacterial, anti viral, anti cytokine, anti-fungal, anti depressant (MAOI), and more activity. Its a rapid electro donor, some 30times faster than auto oxidation in the mitochondria, and unlike vit C, another electron donor, it increases the conversion of ferric iron (state3) into ferrous (state2) iron helping to improve physical performance which is why its an effective treatment for methemoglobinemia.
The main reason it fell out of medical fashion? The blue stain gets everywhere! Used extensively by the US Navy, it even helped coin its own saying "Even at the loo, we see, we pee, navy blue".
But this is how denim was self cleaning, leave the clothing out in the sun and the dye got to work on the bacteria you'd find in your clothes, and whilst copper rivets in jeans were used to hold the clothes together in a rugged fashion, the copper also helped play its part in being an antibacterial implement.
Whilst the medical profession are revisiting it, its cited as cancerous, but this was based on a lifelong study on F344 rats which are a 1920's breed of rat, that were inbred and predisposed to various cancers and thus became one of the cancer model rats. This appears to be a form of vested interest manipulation by some sectors of the scientific community in order to manipulate decision makers so much so its enough for Canada and the UK to ban it!
But that is how Denim self cleans.
[citation needed] Denim is usually dyed with natural or synthetic indigo. The quip about the navy refers to Methylene Blue's pharmacological use as an antimalarial drug. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49831954_Lest_we_fo...
Well this is pretty damn cool.
I always assumed "self cleaning" was a bit of myth and mystique amongst denim-heads, attributable to the density of weave and the "patina" denim can get that makes it effective at resisting stains, etc. "Nah dude, my jeans are MAGIC!"
You've earned your Friday … thank you!
I always assumed "self cleaning" was a bit of myth and mystique amongst denim-heads, attributable to the density of weave and the "patina" denim can get that makes it effective at resisting stains, etc. "Nah dude, my jeans are MAGIC!"
You've earned your Friday … thank you!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyocell
is a variant of rayon.