Hyprland Is a Toxic Community(drewdevault.com)
drewdevault.com
Hyprland Is a Toxic Community
https://drewdevault.com/2023/09/17/Hyprland-toxicity.html
181 comments
> > Imagine a high school boys' locker room come to life
>
> speaking of toxic, why the stereotyping?
For a lot of us, "a high school boy's locker room" is just a cliché from US films. We had no equivalent to this in my country; we were expected to shower and get dressed at home and had nothing even remotely similar at school.
It is a cliché. One presented by the US to the world so many times that it has come clear way to express a stereotype.
I sure hope that real-life locker rooms are unlike what you portray in arts and films, but as a foreigner, it's the references we've got.
For a lot of us, "a high school boy's locker room" is just a cliché from US films. We had no equivalent to this in my country; we were expected to shower and get dressed at home and had nothing even remotely similar at school.
It is a cliché. One presented by the US to the world so many times that it has come clear way to express a stereotype.
I sure hope that real-life locker rooms are unlike what you portray in arts and films, but as a foreigner, it's the references we've got.
I don't know about that. I might get a bit of hate for that, but I'll say it. This pauli person didn't contribute a single thing to the project, afaics. Pushing CoC on projects your not involved in is activism. So don't cry if the projects rejects the proposal. How often did we see, that a CoC was pushed by people like this, pushing out maintainers and creating an echo chamber that slowly dies. I'm certainly very happy that my open source stuff is boring enough to not be targeted by this. Politics makes open source very unattractive to me.
Agreed. "Somebody made a random issue for a CoC and they didn't agree to do it! It would be so easy to just do it!"
Sorry, but who said they want to? Oh that's right, nobody.
Sorry, but who said they want to? Oh that's right, nobody.
The main theme of the article isn't about the CoC
bitwize(2)
I have a lot of respect for Drew for the technical work he did, but it's difficult to take this seriously. Maybe because we come from very different cultures, I don't know. I've never felt the need for any "community" for my window manager of choice (which happens to be sway) and can't imagine what a "victim of harrasment" for such a thing would look like. If whatever the developer clique are doing (which are actually pushing the thing forward) works for them — great! I'd be just fine with it as a user.
> can't imagine what a "victim of harrasment" for such a thing would look like
Well, Drew's article gives a concrete example of a victim. But beyond this specific article, it is not difficult to find examples of people who were harassed when trying to be involved in an open source community. This is pretty much the reason why so many open source projects are adopting codes of conduct.
Well, Drew's article gives a concrete example of a victim. But beyond this specific article, it is not difficult to find examples of people who were harassed when trying to be involved in an open source community. This is pretty much the reason why so many open source projects are adopting codes of conduct.
Automatic scanners that rank libraries take away points if you don't have a code of conduct, and github nags you.
This is why my projects have one.
This is why my projects have one.
A community is just another name for somewhere you go to for troubleshooting, be it a forum, Stack Exchange or Discord? Unless you have never needed that, and that RTFM has been enough.
Sure, if you call that community. Bug reports or questions generally do not require mentioning your race, ethnicity, nationality or identity preferences. I've never done it and as a result never had problems with anyone¹. If someone actively drags politics of any kind into a purely technical discussion, and then looks surprised when some bigoted idiot blows his nut — well, that looks like a a completely made-up problem from my neck of the woods.
1: let me mention here that I come from an ethnic minority in my country and for reasons completely unrelated to this discussion am not welcome in many corners of the internet.
1: let me mention here that I come from an ethnic minority in my country and for reasons completely unrelated to this discussion am not welcome in many corners of the internet.
> Bug reports or questions generally do not require mentioning your race, ethnicity, nationality or identity preferences
Sure, but pronouns? If someone refers to you using the wrong pronoun (e.g., assuming you're male, which this Vaxry person apparently admits to doing), don't you want to point it out somehow?
Sure, but pronouns? If someone refers to you using the wrong pronoun (e.g., assuming you're male, which this Vaxry person apparently admits to doing), don't you want to point it out somehow?
> Bug reports or questions generally do not require mentioning your race, ethnicity, nationality or identity preferences.
There are people whose reply to that statement would be "Help! I'm being oppressed!" . The sort of people who say being race-neutral is white supremacy.
There's a lot of bored people who just want to feel like social activists because they've been taught it's noble (no matter how cringe it is to normal people). And there's no lower-effort way of doing this than causing drama in tech communities where no one cares about your race or gender. It's a perfect place to turn into a battleground, and then if they reject you, you run to social media to virtue signal about toxicity.
There are people whose reply to that statement would be "Help! I'm being oppressed!" . The sort of people who say being race-neutral is white supremacy.
There's a lot of bored people who just want to feel like social activists because they've been taught it's noble (no matter how cringe it is to normal people). And there's no lower-effort way of doing this than causing drama in tech communities where no one cares about your race or gender. It's a perfect place to turn into a battleground, and then if they reject you, you run to social media to virtue signal about toxicity.
But to ask a question about bitmap rendering do you really need to enter you real name and pronouns of choice? Wouldn’t ‘potato04’ be good enough? I’d go as far as to say that your RL identity is off topic.
You have no right to a response from a community. Sure, it's a pity if you don't get support from a great project. But it's nothing you're guaranteed to receive. And that can even happen with projects that aren't considered toxic.
There is a Pacific Ocean between a “right” to a constructive response from a forum, and recognizing the much greater value of a forum that gives constructive responses.
And? They are not obliged to adhere to your definition of a constructive response or the form of community you or anybody wants as long as they stay within the boundaries of law. It's a pity, as I said, but if that's what the existing community wants to do, let them. Who are you to say otherwise?
But why should one not feel free on comment upon whatever they see, and comment however negatively they want to? Because we should be tolerant of all?
I find it interesting that the "anti-Woke" also end up appealing to same values of tolerance that the "Woke" appeal to. Perhaps it points to the lack of diversity in Western thinking.
I find it interesting that the "anti-Woke" also end up appealing to same values of tolerance that the "Woke" appeal to. Perhaps it points to the lack of diversity in Western thinking.
No need to always be positive.
But it seems a lot of people don’t have the skill of channeling their disagreements into respectful reasoned language.
Vs. responding to their disagreements with whatever vitriol makes them feel good, but doesn’t express anything coherent.
Also, if a forum is about X, there is some value in not engaging in habitual conflict on non-trivial side issues.
A free for all zone is fine, but then give the forum a name that reflects that.
But it seems a lot of people don’t have the skill of channeling their disagreements into respectful reasoned language.
Vs. responding to their disagreements with whatever vitriol makes them feel good, but doesn’t express anything coherent.
Also, if a forum is about X, there is some value in not engaging in habitual conflict on non-trivial side issues.
A free for all zone is fine, but then give the forum a name that reflects that.
Classic straw man.
Nowhere did I say “my” view of being constructive.
Very few people have no sense of when they themselves are being (or have been) more constructive or less.
It’s easy to say nothing can be done. Perfect agreement on good manners is unattainable.
But even a little improvement, goes a long ways.
Nowhere did I say “my” view of being constructive.
Very few people have no sense of when they themselves are being (or have been) more constructive or less.
It’s easy to say nothing can be done. Perfect agreement on good manners is unattainable.
But even a little improvement, goes a long ways.
[deleted]
You may quickly feel the need for a "community" when you start to contribute, learn about its insides and want to push the project forward. Unless you're happy with publishing to your own fork that nobody knows about, software development is a social activity that often spawns social relationships.
> I've never felt the need for any "community" for my window manager of choice
I think hyperland is big within ricing community, where people try to setup their own computing environment. It's a fun creative outlet, I used to do it a lot in high school. It taught me so much about linux which later on helped me professionally, so it's sad to see that the community isn't more inclusive.
I think hyperland is big within ricing community, where people try to setup their own computing environment. It's a fun creative outlet, I used to do it a lot in high school. It taught me so much about linux which later on helped me professionally, so it's sad to see that the community isn't more inclusive.
I think Discord servers for a software project tend to attract a younger audience and are more noisy/active and have offtopic discussion, compared to something like a user/-dev channel on IRC.
I found this link on the reddit thread: https://pastes.io/hbaaff2c8f
The Wayland community in general do feel like that it's comprised of a lot of young, immature and cliquey members, which is quite unfortunate since it's an interesting technology.
These attitudes can be seen not only in political topics (such as the one described in the article), but also other stuff in general.
For example, sway once forced users who are using Nvidia gpus to type --my-next-gpu-wont-be-nvidia so that the compositor works properly. It's nothing explicitly offensive, but you can see how their attitudes against "unapproved" outgroups oozes out here.
These attitudes can be seen not only in political topics (such as the one described in the article), but also other stuff in general.
For example, sway once forced users who are using Nvidia gpus to type --my-next-gpu-wont-be-nvidia so that the compositor works properly. It's nothing explicitly offensive, but you can see how their attitudes against "unapproved" outgroups oozes out here.
I used to feel frustrated about the flag, having bought an Nvidia GPU for ML, not knowing how badly DRM works on it.
I don’t blame the maintainers of a compositor of struggling with Nvidia holding back a proper API? My Intel built in GPU works fine with sway.
I can see how that can be perceived as abrasive, I think Drew tends to polarize opinions from time to time. But this isn’t about purposefully misgendering a person and various other acts of harassment.
I don’t blame the maintainers of a compositor of struggling with Nvidia holding back a proper API? My Intel built in GPU works fine with sway.
I can see how that can be perceived as abrasive, I think Drew tends to polarize opinions from time to time. But this isn’t about purposefully misgendering a person and various other acts of harassment.
Nothing wrong with that command-line flag. That's the kind of personality software can be imbued with when you don't have to care about corporate.
Initially ATI was so shit on Linux that I'm still not buying them.
Nvidia 4 Lyfe!!1!
Nvidia 4 Lyfe!!1!
Bro since Lisa Su in charge things changed a bit, my 7900xt works like a charm with X and wayland and same did rx580 for few years now, amdgpu is open source driver integrated in kernel of most Linux distributions, its plug an play, just install gpu, turn on the machine, boot into your linux then load amdgpu module reboot, and you can already immediately set ur display on 144hz, try that with my 1080gtx and you are locked at 60 with noveau driver module loaded, until u install their proprietary sheit....
There are many examples of companies and countries that have improved their competitiveness and efficiency by adopting open source strategies. The creation of skills through all levels is of fundamental importance to both companies and countries.
There are many examples of companies and countries that have improved their competitiveness and efficiency by adopting open source strategies. The creation of skills through all levels is of fundamental importance to both companies and countries.
Thanks for your answer.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37553348
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37553348
Radeon is working great these days and with better support on Linux.
Wayland works perfectly on it.
Note that sway was written by the author of this blogpost.
I really appreciate Drew stepping up against harassment in open source communities.
Deciding on a CoC is such a low effort issue, just get it over with!
Deciding on a CoC is such a low effort issue, just get it over with!
They apparently decided on “none”, which is valid.
I kinda agree with the maintainers here, if it’s an issue, fork it, add your own CoC and manage your own community as you see fit. That’s valid too.
There’s nothing wrong with suggesting to adopt a CoC, but ultimately the maintainers get to decide.
I kinda agree with the maintainers here, if it’s an issue, fork it, add your own CoC and manage your own community as you see fit. That’s valid too.
There’s nothing wrong with suggesting to adopt a CoC, but ultimately the maintainers get to decide.
They did decide. They decided they did not need one. Please respect the decision.
>Deciding on a CoC is such a low effort issue, just get it over with!
They don't want to, it's got nothing to do with "effort".
They don't want to, it's got nothing to do with "effort".
I agree. They should merge in the Rule of St. Benedict.
That's.. quite disappointing..
Still, I do have some hope that just maybe, maybe he will understand how the toxicity harms... others, and make changes for the better..
What is with these ellipses
In order to feel special they have chosen a typing quirk, which is to LARP as being sleepy 24/7.
What does a window manager have to do with gender?
Basic respect to each other as human beings with self-expression in a community?
Why would one 'self-express' in a window manager community?
"Hey does anyone know why I'm getting this error?"
"Oh, I think Skipper saw that problem earlier. Hey @Skipper can you help him out?"
And if they don't go by "him," they may want to correct you, because not everyone on the internet is a man.
"Oh, I think Skipper saw that problem earlier. Hey @Skipper can you help him out?"
And if they don't go by "him," they may want to correct you, because not everyone on the internet is a man.
Traubenfuchs(1)
MrYellowP(3)
Who said that all communities should be “non toxic” and inclusive? It is definitely idiotic to lose possibly valuable members because of pronouns, but it’s their own community.
I was going to just neglect this thinking that Drew may be subjecting this community to his strict standards. But then, there is this:
> And so, one of the moderators changed the pronouns in their nickname to “who/cares”
This is very a specific and active involvement of a moderator in the act. Such interventions are a gross misuse of moderator privileges in any community.
> Let’s be real, this isn’t like, calling someone the N-word or something.
That's a low effort attempt at downplaying and justifying an act in bad faith. If you go back long enough, you would find similar roots for the N-word (quoting wikipedia: "It was initially seen as a relatively neutral term"). It became so obnoxious because of the involvement of hateful people with the word. The same will eventually happen here.
> Who said that all communities should be “non toxic” and inclusive?
To this, the following quote is relevant:
> Later he describes a more moderated community (the /r/unixporn discord server) as having an environment in which everyone is going to “lick your butthole just to be nice”.
They aren't just tolerating bad behavior in their own community. They take a vocal stance of hatred towards other communities that don't.
> but it’s their own community.
So are the proud boys and neonazis. They all start like this by tolerating hate and brushing aside criticism in the name of joke. I don't know where you'd draw a line.
For now though, I think Drew is justified in calling this out. I do use software from people whose political views I cannot agree with. But they all keep their politics and their communities separate. This is not like that. This is one community I want to stay away from. Using their software keeps the possibility of that encounter open. This blog is useful for people like me.
> And so, one of the moderators changed the pronouns in their nickname to “who/cares”
This is very a specific and active involvement of a moderator in the act. Such interventions are a gross misuse of moderator privileges in any community.
> Let’s be real, this isn’t like, calling someone the N-word or something.
That's a low effort attempt at downplaying and justifying an act in bad faith. If you go back long enough, you would find similar roots for the N-word (quoting wikipedia: "It was initially seen as a relatively neutral term"). It became so obnoxious because of the involvement of hateful people with the word. The same will eventually happen here.
> Who said that all communities should be “non toxic” and inclusive?
To this, the following quote is relevant:
> Later he describes a more moderated community (the /r/unixporn discord server) as having an environment in which everyone is going to “lick your butthole just to be nice”.
They aren't just tolerating bad behavior in their own community. They take a vocal stance of hatred towards other communities that don't.
> but it’s their own community.
So are the proud boys and neonazis. They all start like this by tolerating hate and brushing aside criticism in the name of joke. I don't know where you'd draw a line.
For now though, I think Drew is justified in calling this out. I do use software from people whose political views I cannot agree with. But they all keep their politics and their communities separate. This is not like that. This is one community I want to stay away from. Using their software keeps the possibility of that encounter open. This blog is useful for people like me.
> This is very a specific and active involvement of a moderator in the act. Such interventions are a gross misuse of moderator privileges in any community.
Oh, they can't express themselves?
They can't express their sentiment of gender abolition because mental illness makes some people care a fuckton about gender?
What cool logic
Oh, they can't express themselves?
They can't express their sentiment of gender abolition because mental illness makes some people care a fuckton about gender?
What cool logic
> Oh, they can't express themselves?
Misusing moderator privileges to modify someone else's profile to mock their gender identity isn't exactly what normal people call 'expressing themselves'.
> because mental illness makes some people care a fuckton about gender?
It's genuinely amusing to see a bunch of people in this era hold neolithic-age ideas about what mental illness is. If you haven't noticed, the concept of mental health and gender identity has changed a lot in the past century.
Misusing moderator privileges to modify someone else's profile to mock their gender identity isn't exactly what normal people call 'expressing themselves'.
> because mental illness makes some people care a fuckton about gender?
It's genuinely amusing to see a bunch of people in this era hold neolithic-age ideas about what mental illness is. If you haven't noticed, the concept of mental health and gender identity has changed a lot in the past century.
You're free to have a toxic, noninclusive community. Setup a login window in your discord server that clearly states "This is a toxic, transphobic, homophobic, racist, etc community. By clicking the Agree button you forfeit all rights to being treated with any form of respect and acknowledge you may be attacked, harassed, doxxed and threatened for any reason at any time. If you complain in any way shape or form, you will be immediately blocked without warning."
You can use mee6 to set that up and enjoy your toxic and non-inclusive community.
The absence of any such login window implies that a basic social contract is followed, which this community is clearly in violation of.
You can use mee6 to set that up and enjoy your toxic and non-inclusive community.
The absence of any such login window implies that a basic social contract is followed, which this community is clearly in violation of.
It seems Internet Communities of all kind default to a kind of hateful toxicity unless steps are taken in the opposite direction. If the Mods chose to encourage such behavior you get 4chan style levels of degeneracy pretty fast.
It's pretty easy to prevent that though: ban the N word and the K word, the derogatory word for Jews. That gets you 90% of the way there. You'll put off the types that drop into communities just to shit the place up. The rest of it is just letting people be themselves and the emergent culture that comes along with it. Just ban 2 words, you don't need an endless CoC to prevent the toxicity, those are generally for enforcing much more strict ideological conformity.
> I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt.
> My advice to the leadership begins with taking a serious look in the mirror.
What does this guy talks about? He bans people on Mastodon after 2 messages. He clearly values his ego more than anyone else.
> My advice to the leadership begins with taking a serious look in the mirror.
What does this guy talks about? He bans people on Mastodon after 2 messages. He clearly values his ego more than anyone else.
As someone who interacted with Drew back in his calculator days, he has greatly improved since then.
Well, hyprland has toxic community. The problem is that there is no way to turn off xwayland scaling in Sway, so I don't care about community or whatever if they can deliver working software and sway is broken by design.
Why did Drew all of a sudden start doing this advocacy stuff? Not that I disagree with it, I'm just curious... it feels performative. Like is he trying to prove some kind of point to someone? It's definitely an entertaining read, but I wonder why he pivoted to such a strong degree
Seems like everything can be perceived as hate/toxic especially when there is an asymmetric relationship between the sacred/protected vs everyone else. It's like dealing with police, anything you say can and will be used against you. I will limit all comms with people who wield that much power over me. It like talking to a landmine.
Look, the solution to FLOSS community issues is not to whine about them on your blog, that's just as toxic as what these folks are doing. It's rather to fork the project under a new name, so that potential contributors who dislike the toxicity (whether or not they're "in the right" about their particular dislikes) have a venue that they can resort to. Everything else is just a big distraction.
> Look, the solution to FLOSS community issues is not to whine about them on your blog, that's just as toxic as what these folks are doing
It's not the same. A blog post is a great way of raising awareness of issues.
It's not the same. A blog post is a great way of raising awareness of issues.
The thing about toxicity is that it's harmful to those who are most aware of it, such as marginalized folks. So 'raising awareness' is exactly what should not be done in this case! (Of course Drew is not fully cognizant of this, because of the entrenched privilege that's so common in the FLOSS space.) You should instead lower awareness, by offering something better as an alternative.
Are these same "marginalized folks" that the western establishment is nonstop promoting? (and has legislation that enforces their promotion).
Maybe but there's literally NO issue lol
There have been project that has been forked for these reasons. They never go anywhere because the people forking are not involved in the original community as dev.
That wouldn't let people make it about them instead of the project. Fundamentally that's what this stuff is, "my issue is most important" and trying to use popular language and concerns about things being "toxic" to pay attention to them. If they just did a fork, they'd actually have to develop software (or more likely split into groups that disagreed about some other political thing and fight about that)
And how is he supposed to do that? Drew's wlroots is open source so hyperland can use it whether he likes it or not.
[deleted]
who/cares
But in all seriousness, Drew should spend time creating and living in communities with standards he likes, and stay out of those he doesn't. Nobody is being doxxed here, nobody is being harassed outside the community, from what I can tell nothing serious has occurred here except that the discourse in this community is not to Drew's liking
who/cares
But in all seriousness, Drew should spend time creating and living in communities with standards he likes, and stay out of those he doesn't. Nobody is being doxxed here, nobody is being harassed outside the community, from what I can tell nothing serious has occurred here except that the discourse in this community is not to Drew's liking
who/cares
As the creator of wlroots, this is Drew's community whether he likes it or not.
I get what you're saying, but it's really not the case. wlroots and Hyprland are not the same thing just because Hyprland builds on wlroots.
Nor are their respective communities just because there may be overlap in members.
Nor are their respective communities just because there may be overlap in members.
An open source project like wlroots is a massive labor of love, and it becomes part of ones identity. You're in essence asking Drew to abandon it. In other words, you're asking him to rip out part of his soul.
The nature of FOSS is that you don't get to decide what people do with what you build after you give it to them. Nobody's asking him to abandon it, only to acknowledge that people are going to use it, even people he doesn't like, for projects, even projects he doesn't like. If not being able to tell people how to act while using your software is a deal breaker, FOSS isn't for you, you probably want a ToS instead.
I don't really see any of that in my comment. And to be honest I don't even see the other side of it in Drew's post.
Hyprland isn't even the main, let alone only compositor using wlroots. I think you're going for dramatic effect that really doesn't land.
Hyprland isn't even the main, let alone only compositor using wlroots. I think you're going for dramatic effect that really doesn't land.
How is Drew supposed to make wlroots better without participating in the community of wlroots' users? And improvements come from looking at all uses and generalizing across them rather than looking at a subset. If he ignores HyperLand and makes a change that impairs Hyprlands' usage of wlroots, the HyprLand community will very loudly show up in the wlroots issue trackers, etc.
At which point Drew can run his community the way he sees fit.
Many people in Discord communities learned English as a second language, and some of them are self-taught.
Some languages are weird and do not use genders at all. People coming from those languages have a hard time dealing with gendered languages such as English.
Some people do not know what misgendering is, or even what a trans person is, or their culture might not deal with that in the same way your cultures does. Probably they have a different term for it or it is taboo for them to talk about it.
Deaf people are about the same percentage of the population as people who identify as trans. Have you learned sign language? when you approach people, do you consider they may not be able to hear you? Why is this?
There are many groups that also amount to 0.6 to 5% of the population yet are more understanding that the rest of the population may not be prepared to address their needs. Not because of malice or hate but because they simply do not know or they come from a different culture.
Some languages are weird and do not use genders at all. People coming from those languages have a hard time dealing with gendered languages such as English.
Some people do not know what misgendering is, or even what a trans person is, or their culture might not deal with that in the same way your cultures does. Probably they have a different term for it or it is taboo for them to talk about it.
Deaf people are about the same percentage of the population as people who identify as trans. Have you learned sign language? when you approach people, do you consider they may not be able to hear you? Why is this?
There are many groups that also amount to 0.6 to 5% of the population yet are more understanding that the rest of the population may not be prepared to address their needs. Not because of malice or hate but because they simply do not know or they come from a different culture.
Correction: this was not a case of accidental misgendering. The post refers to someone abusing mod privileges to edit someone's pronouns to "who/cares".
And why did that happen?
Hate and intolerance could be one reason, but there are others. Ignorance, immaturity, prejudice and steoreotyping, etc.
And the way to deal with that is through compassion. A good start is to feel sorry for them.
Hate and intolerance could be one reason, but there are others. Ignorance, immaturity, prejudice and steoreotyping, etc.
And the way to deal with that is through compassion. A good start is to feel sorry for them.
> Hate and intolerance could be one reason, but there are others. Ignorance, immaturity, prejudice and steoreotyping, etc.
Those are all signs of a toxic community, which is what this article is about
Those are all signs of a toxic community, which is what this article is about
I am just trying to say that we should begin our conversations giving each other the benefit of the doubt, and then build mutual understanding through compassion and empathy. That is all.
That mod is likely an ill-intentioned guy and in violation of the Discord ToS, but starting every conversation by accusing others of being ill-intentioned is how we end achieving nothing as a society.
Punishment and an escalation of intolerance are not the goal, tolerance is. We are not going to heal the world one accusation or insult at a time.
When you are not a prejudiced person, a good starting point is to consider yourself fortunate in that respect, and then acknowledging others might not have been as fortunate as you.
That mod is likely an ill-intentioned guy and in violation of the Discord ToS, but starting every conversation by accusing others of being ill-intentioned is how we end achieving nothing as a society.
Punishment and an escalation of intolerance are not the goal, tolerance is. We are not going to heal the world one accusation or insult at a time.
When you are not a prejudiced person, a good starting point is to consider yourself fortunate in that respect, and then acknowledging others might not have been as fortunate as you.
Is there no self reflection in these communities? Everywhere they go is toxic and hateful. We're giving so much rope to protected groups that they will eventually hang everyone with it.
In retaliation to said someone making their pronouns their personality rather than focusing on the conversations at hand.
mongol(9)
jiofj(3)
I've seen CoC touted as a singular good destroy at least two communities by now, so you may not realize that your "social reformist" getup is your own personal obsession with your own personal politics, but it's plain to see for the rest of us
One thing that's lacking from Drew's main point is not asserting why "cracking edgy jokes" or making edgy political statements is useless to an open source community.
Or rather there's no other point other than "please stop being mean", while good, it doesn't merit more than a virtue, in contrast to 4chan style people, they will make make terrible arguments/justifications for being edgy.
The only way to succeed in stamping out toxicity is to have as many strong points about why it shouldn't be tolerated.
Or rather there's no other point other than "please stop being mean", while good, it doesn't merit more than a virtue, in contrast to 4chan style people, they will make make terrible arguments/justifications for being edgy.
The only way to succeed in stamping out toxicity is to have as many strong points about why it shouldn't be tolerated.
That's rich coming from Drew.
I'm being very hyperbolic, he's a perfectly decent guy, but he is very opinionated and can be pretty harsh with people he disagrees with or that do things he doesn't like. Some would call him toxic, I wouldn't, but I think this word "toxic" is thrown around too much. I've been called toxic for farting. I'm gonna come out and say it: it's just boys being boys. You can chastise me for that position, but people are going to be themselves in the world, we don't need to correct every indecent viewpoint or act of expression that happens anywhere anytime, and we can't. Hyprland is good software, and this comes from a Sway user who has no interest in using Hyprland at all. If some guys in a chatroom want to make dongle jokes or whatever I think you've got to be looking for reasons to be mad to make a big deal out of it.
I'm being very hyperbolic, he's a perfectly decent guy, but he is very opinionated and can be pretty harsh with people he disagrees with or that do things he doesn't like. Some would call him toxic, I wouldn't, but I think this word "toxic" is thrown around too much. I've been called toxic for farting. I'm gonna come out and say it: it's just boys being boys. You can chastise me for that position, but people are going to be themselves in the world, we don't need to correct every indecent viewpoint or act of expression that happens anywhere anytime, and we can't. Hyprland is good software, and this comes from a Sway user who has no interest in using Hyprland at all. If some guys in a chatroom want to make dongle jokes or whatever I think you've got to be looking for reasons to be mad to make a big deal out of it.
speaking of toxic, why the stereotyping? It's not all locker-stuffing and hazing everywhere across the world; I had a blast in high school athletics with friends, and we didn't go out of our way to ruin anyone's day.
When I imagine that I am taken back by memories of camaraderie, pride, friendship, and group motivation towards a goal -- I'm quite sure that wasn't the imagery you wanted to project.
We partook in community service, worked at homeless shelters, the whole gambit. I've probably never been so virtuous as those days.
Not every locker room is filled with hateful machismo, and not every jock is a cruel bully -- don't paint with such wide strokes and expect to keep the details.
now, that said , i'm sorry that you received such treatment, and I hope that you find a friendlier place to direct time and effort; thankfully the DE/WM community is vast enough to find a place that is worth being.