Car showed pop-up while driving(glitterkitten.co.uk)
glitterkitten.co.uk
Car showed pop-up while driving
https://glitterkitten.co.uk/@ellavescent/111091652921668380
245 comments
Instead of legislating pop over messages to happen (looking at cookie messages), we just need to legislate these trash interruptions away. I didn’t begin using the device I purchased to be interrupted by something that had literally no bearing on my life, I cannot effectively use the device if I decline, and the existence of such can cause harm if I am working with something sensitive.
on that note, is anyone ever voluntarily, knowingly clicking the “accept all” other than to dismiss these? Like why not just legislate that you can’t do the kind of tracking they are asking because I’m pretty sure literally nobody wants it…
That's exactly what they did. The cookie dialogs are almost all illegal. Enforcement is MIA.
The industry collectively decided to play "they can't catch us all" because the alternative was giving up the ad-driven business model and they didn't want to do that. Unfortunately, it looks like they are getting away with it.
The industry collectively decided to play "they can't catch us all" because the alternative was giving up the ad-driven business model and they didn't want to do that. Unfortunately, it looks like they are getting away with it.
The accept button is a one time deal. You click it and never hear about it again. Deny on the other hand causes the same question to come up again and again. They want you either to get fed up and accept it or accidentally accept it.
> Deny on the other hand causes the same question to come up again and again.
Not in my experience. I click deny almost everywhere, even if it takes more clicks, but rarely do I see the banners come up again in a second visit. Tracking my choice is a functional cookie after all.
I do, however, simply close the tab when the banner occupies half the window (or I use reader mode to bypass it altogether). That's just obnoxious.
Not in my experience. I click deny almost everywhere, even if it takes more clicks, but rarely do I see the banners come up again in a second visit. Tracking my choice is a functional cookie after all.
I do, however, simply close the tab when the banner occupies half the window (or I use reader mode to bypass it altogether). That's just obnoxious.
So they only pop up every time if you force them to respect your decision by not letting them store persistent cookies in the first place? To avoid the recurring interruptions all you have to do is trust the organisation that's employing this user-hostile pattern in the first place to respect your wishes and not be user-hostile more discreetly instead?
I'll tell you what is a one time deal: the explicit do not track preference that my browser automatically sends to every site I visit. They already know they don't need to bother asking me about these things every time. They just choose to overlook it.
I'll tell you what is a one time deal: the explicit do not track preference that my browser automatically sends to every site I visit. They already know they don't need to bother asking me about these things every time. They just choose to overlook it.
It is my understanding that GDPR and CCPA both specify that consent is only needed for non-essential cookies (or some nebulous term they use) and you can make the argument that storing user preferences are essential. The laws in question don’t, however, have as strong language for the reverse case, i.e. you can ask for consent for cookies that may be considered essential and thus forbid yourself from storing the preference to deny resulting in harassment.
I was talking about devices mostly. The worst offender I know of is google and Android. I think they just settled of court in a similar matter.
Oh that I fully agree; sorry, I was only thinking cookies. I too have got Android devices with built-in crapware that ask for permissions and ad tracking again and again because I keep tapping "no". Chinese brands are the worst at this, even the damned built-in file manager has ads.
I the dialog comes up repeatedly after deny, that's illegal in the EU actually.
Also, I don't know what the posters above are talking about, but more and more dialogs these days have a working Reject All button. Including that of Meta or Google. Bad actors are still left, but still.
Also, I don't know what the posters above are talking about, but more and more dialogs these days have a working Reject All button. Including that of Meta or Google. Bad actors are still left, but still.
Maybe the cookie tracking whether or not you responded isn’t saved if you reject cookies?
Cookies for functionality that's necessary, i.e. expected by the user, are completely legal without any consent or notification.
Fact of the matter is, when you see a cookie banner, that's always for spyware shit that the service doesn't really need to serve the user (e.g., analytics, tracking).
Fact of the matter is, when you see a cookie banner, that's always for spyware shit that the service doesn't really need to serve the user (e.g., analytics, tracking).
> Cookies for functionality that's necessary, i.e. expected by the user, are completely legal without any consent or notification.
No that is not the case, though it's easy (and common) to mistakenly think that - in part due to the confusing nature of the various regulations and in part due to how frequently companies and websites purposefully misinterpret them for their benefit.
Firstly, there are legitimate reasons to ask for consent to store user data that relate to providing a service (eg if the service is storing a user's personal medical records, or many many possible functions within many services).
Secondly, even without personal information being used or stored, and therefore no GDPR to worry about nor consent needing to be sought, cookies are a separate matter. A different EU law (the 2009 update of the "ePrivacy Directive") requires EU users be notified of any cookie use - even something as obviously reasonable as providing the functionality of a "keep me logged in" checkbox, if you're doing it with a cookie (edit: or even something equivalent like using fingerprinting on the server side to remember people) you need to notify the user.
See, for example, the UK ICO's (the relevant department for dealing with UK's implementation of GDPR, ePrivacy Directive, etc) guidance on it:
> This means that if you use cookies you must:
> - say what cookies will be set;
> - explain what the cookies will do; and
> - obtain consent to store cookies on devices.
> PECR also applies to ‘similar technologies’ like fingerprinting techniques. Therefore, unless an exemption applies, any use of device fingerprinting requires the provision of clear and comprehensive information as well as the consent of the user or subscriber.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/direct-marketing-and-pr...
A cookie being necessary for actual core functionality does allow skipping over requiring consent, but not skipping the notification part. Which is why 14 years ago, years before GDPR arrived, EU sites all started putting "cookie banners" up, most of which didn't ask for consent and just appeared on the first site visit for each user even if they didn't actively dismiss it, since showing it once was widely considered to count as having notified.
Sorry for such a long comment, but the fact that these topics are so widely misunderstood means I think it's important not to make things worse by accidentally spreading misinformation like that in your comment.
No that is not the case, though it's easy (and common) to mistakenly think that - in part due to the confusing nature of the various regulations and in part due to how frequently companies and websites purposefully misinterpret them for their benefit.
Firstly, there are legitimate reasons to ask for consent to store user data that relate to providing a service (eg if the service is storing a user's personal medical records, or many many possible functions within many services).
Secondly, even without personal information being used or stored, and therefore no GDPR to worry about nor consent needing to be sought, cookies are a separate matter. A different EU law (the 2009 update of the "ePrivacy Directive") requires EU users be notified of any cookie use - even something as obviously reasonable as providing the functionality of a "keep me logged in" checkbox, if you're doing it with a cookie (edit: or even something equivalent like using fingerprinting on the server side to remember people) you need to notify the user.
See, for example, the UK ICO's (the relevant department for dealing with UK's implementation of GDPR, ePrivacy Directive, etc) guidance on it:
> This means that if you use cookies you must:
> - say what cookies will be set;
> - explain what the cookies will do; and
> - obtain consent to store cookies on devices.
> PECR also applies to ‘similar technologies’ like fingerprinting techniques. Therefore, unless an exemption applies, any use of device fingerprinting requires the provision of clear and comprehensive information as well as the consent of the user or subscriber.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/direct-marketing-and-pr...
A cookie being necessary for actual core functionality does allow skipping over requiring consent, but not skipping the notification part. Which is why 14 years ago, years before GDPR arrived, EU sites all started putting "cookie banners" up, most of which didn't ask for consent and just appeared on the first site visit for each user even if they didn't actively dismiss it, since showing it once was widely considered to count as having notified.
Sorry for such a long comment, but the fact that these topics are so widely misunderstood means I think it's important not to make things worse by accidentally spreading misinformation like that in your comment.
I'm going to repeat … cookie banners are not necessary for functionality that the user expects to receive as part of the service provided. And yes, this is part of the ePrivacy Directive. And indeed, the cookie banners that only “notify” users, without requiring an acknowledgement to proceed, are not even legal.
Go to any Mastodon website right now. Why aren't they providing a cookie banner for notifying that session cookies are used?
Go to GitHub for that matter. Why aren't they providing a cookie banner? We know why: https://github.blog/2020-12-17-no-cookie-for-you/
GDPR isn't concerned with cookies. What the GDPR cares about is personal data and having a legal basis for processing. And “consent” is only one of those legal bases.
You don't need consent, for example, for using a home address for delivering pizza, since pizza delivery can't work without that home address. That's what's called a “legitimate” interest. You also don't need consent for keeping logs for security purposes, if the retention rate is reasonable (e.g., 3 months). You also don't need consent if the law demands that you keep certain records for fraud detection by law enforcement (e.g., banking).
--->
A vast majority of websites needing cookie banners or GDPR consent dialogs are doing spyware shit, which includes Google Analytics (85% of all websites), or behavioral advertising via RTB platforms. And the few websites that don't probably haven't spoken with lawyers yet.
Go to any Mastodon website right now. Why aren't they providing a cookie banner for notifying that session cookies are used?
Go to GitHub for that matter. Why aren't they providing a cookie banner? We know why: https://github.blog/2020-12-17-no-cookie-for-you/
GDPR isn't concerned with cookies. What the GDPR cares about is personal data and having a legal basis for processing. And “consent” is only one of those legal bases.
You don't need consent, for example, for using a home address for delivering pizza, since pizza delivery can't work without that home address. That's what's called a “legitimate” interest. You also don't need consent for keeping logs for security purposes, if the retention rate is reasonable (e.g., 3 months). You also don't need consent if the law demands that you keep certain records for fraud detection by law enforcement (e.g., banking).
--->
A vast majority of websites needing cookie banners or GDPR consent dialogs are doing spyware shit, which includes Google Analytics (85% of all websites), or behavioral advertising via RTB platforms. And the few websites that don't probably haven't spoken with lawyers yet.
If you're so convinced you're right about this point (which is not the view of lawyers I've seen spend tens of thousands worth of billable hours around GDPR and ePrivacy Directive... though I'm not in the legal profession myself, just somebody who has seen the legal advice about this at multiple tech companies, and it's a confusing enough area of law with little precedent set in courts yet, so it's absolutely not impossible that they and therefore I am wrong, though I don't think it's the case) maybe you could provide a source for the claim that's from an actual authority - like the source I provided from an actual government department responsible for implementation of enforcement of these laws, which disagrees with the view of GitHub, a company that may or may not have interpreted the law correctly?
Also, saying "I'm going to repeat..." to someone who had (rightly or wrongly) corrected something you said, is not really helpful, it's not adding to the argument and is more likely to push people away than to get them to reconsider your belief (almost made me just ignore your whole reply, to be honest). I'd suggest saving that phrase for when somebody had forgotten something you said, not when they think that what you said is wrong.
Also, saying "I'm going to repeat..." to someone who had (rightly or wrongly) corrected something you said, is not really helpful, it's not adding to the argument and is more likely to push people away than to get them to reconsider your belief (almost made me just ignore your whole reply, to be honest). I'd suggest saving that phrase for when somebody had forgotten something you said, not when they think that what you said is wrong.
Well his username is bad_user :)
Nah. They normally have the default "allow system cookies" which is untickable.
What annoys me are the "Legitimate Consent" option on all 9000 cookie vendors. There never seems to be a "No to all" button on those.
What annoys me are the "Legitimate Consent" option on all 9000 cookie vendors. There never seems to be a "No to all" button on those.
The IAB consent dialog is the worst, as it makes you consent to the entire advertising industry.
Those legitimate interests, however, are bullshit. Just because they claim it, doesn't mean it's true.
For instance, a DPA just claimed that Facebook can't claim a legitimate interest for behavioral advertising, so they'll have to ask for consent. Which will be interesting, because they won't be able to refuse service to those that decline.
Those legitimate interests, however, are bullshit. Just because they claim it, doesn't mean it's true.
For instance, a DPA just claimed that Facebook can't claim a legitimate interest for behavioral advertising, so they'll have to ask for consent. Which will be interesting, because they won't be able to refuse service to those that decline.
The "legitimate interest" part of GDPR is just horrifically abused by so many companies, who act like it's a magic two words which allow them to collect personal information without consent because they said "ooooh we really do have a legitimate reason for this data" which is against both the spirit and the wording of the GDPR.
I really hope to see a few big cases where the EU fines companies for that, so that everyone else gets the picture and stops hiding behind legitimate fucking interest. But I don't know why that hasn't happened yet, hopefully it's just slow moving rather than a case of the laws implementing GDPR being fuzzy enough that countries are worried they wouldn't win the case in courts. (But if that were the case, hurry up and update the law!)
/side note: apologies on behalf of my profession, since it's largely marketing people who've led to these shitty practises. We're not all assholes, some of us do respect people's data, rights, and (lack of-)consent.
I really hope to see a few big cases where the EU fines companies for that, so that everyone else gets the picture and stops hiding behind legitimate fucking interest. But I don't know why that hasn't happened yet, hopefully it's just slow moving rather than a case of the laws implementing GDPR being fuzzy enough that countries are worried they wouldn't win the case in courts. (But if that were the case, hurry up and update the law!)
/side note: apologies on behalf of my profession, since it's largely marketing people who've led to these shitty practises. We're not all assholes, some of us do respect people's data, rights, and (lack of-)consent.
Meta/Facebook was told that they don't have a legitimate interest in behavioral advertising. They'll need to ask for consent: https://thisisunpacked.substack.com/p/the-eu-war-on-behavior...
Meta also broke the record for the biggest fine this year (1.2 billion). The fines are coming, and if they go after the biggest players first (e.g., Meta, Google), it will send shockwaves through the entire industry.
When GDPR came into effect, being close to the advertising business then, I know some companies that closed shop in EU. But enforcement has been very moderate, at least in the beginning. There's also the issue that some DPAs are more active than others. On the other hand, it doesn't take a lot to set precedents, and EU countries may find that these fines are a nice way to add to the public budget.
Meta also broke the record for the biggest fine this year (1.2 billion). The fines are coming, and if they go after the biggest players first (e.g., Meta, Google), it will send shockwaves through the entire industry.
When GDPR came into effect, being close to the advertising business then, I know some companies that closed shop in EU. But enforcement has been very moderate, at least in the beginning. There's also the issue that some DPAs are more active than others. On the other hand, it doesn't take a lot to set precedents, and EU countries may find that these fines are a nice way to add to the public budget.
A cookie like that doesn't need to contain any personal information and therefore does not need a user's consent to store under GDPR. As a cookie it does need the user to be notified (ePrivacy Directive aka its 2009 "cookies law" update), but that is/can be covered as part of the original request that the user clicks to reject optional cookies.
The only reason to forget that a user said no is because it's a hostile interface designed to get users to give in and give their "consent".
The only reason to forget that a user said no is because it's a hostile interface designed to get users to give in and give their "consent".
Consent-o-matic has really improved things for me. I get a little thrill every time I see it doing its thing.
https://consentomatic.au.dk
https://consentomatic.au.dk
That's an awesome and horrifying story.
I used to work with a software engineer who said to me he would never trust medical equipment that was computerized. It's hard to escape it these days but 20 years ago he was well aware of how many bugs even the most experienced software engineer would leave behind, and was rightly concerned that like if he needed medical support from a machine, that it could very well kill him.
I used to work with a software engineer who said to me he would never trust medical equipment that was computerized. It's hard to escape it these days but 20 years ago he was well aware of how many bugs even the most experienced software engineer would leave behind, and was rightly concerned that like if he needed medical support from a machine, that it could very well kill him.
Reminds me of the Therac-25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
Lordy - yes, terrifically horrible example.
At this point I’ll just try to build anything I need from the ground up myself.
Ardupilot and MavProxy are a great starting point.
Thanks, I haven’t heard about mavproxy.
I remember how I had once unimportant android service crashing that was set to instantly restart the service. And always gave the warning and you had to click ok - made the whole phone unusable until factory reset. Ok, half a second later ok. It was system. Couldn't be disabled - not that you could even get to the apps menu.
What kind of team of engineers thought that this kind of stupidity was a good idea.
What kind of team of engineers thought that this kind of stupidity was a good idea.
The move to use mobile devices as controllers has always terrified me. They are just way too user-disempowering to be reliable like that.
I’m not sure when that happened, but you probably better used a 3rd party app to fly it, they are usually more feature richer and more hacky too
That just makes it even worse that the vendor app does it.
Indeed, that’s why whenever I fly DJI, I use other apps, like Litchi or UgCS
It might be best to turn on “do not disturb” during such a session.
Doesn't prevent the very rude iOS updates. When there's a system update, it's not a notification, it's an alert, followed by a fullscreen modal to "enter your passcode to install overnight" with a small button to dismiss at the bottom. That's, I have to say, from a company that prides itself on the best UX in the industry.
But don't you see — it's for the greater good! They can only give you the best user experience if you update to the latest version of iOS!
This is an obvious no-no but these popups create other issues too.
My Grandma lives in a small town in Eastern Europe and I bought her a Samsung Tablet to use with Skype so we can talk to her without paying ridiculous international rates(her house had 100mbps internet but no landline for phone, only GSM which was expensive to call).
Anyway, at some point Skype and later Samsung decided that we can't call grandma without her accepting the terms and conditions. The problem is that she has all kind of illnesses and she can't see the screen well and can't manage a touchscreen well. Also can't get it fixed by someone else because pretty much everyone is very old in the town.
During the height of the pandemic I had to do an international travel because she wanted to see us. I Gave her my old iPhone 7 and use FaceTime now, with auto answer setting turned on in the accessibility. Works like a charm since then, as good and simple as a traditional dumb phone.
People making these UX really should think better.
My Grandma lives in a small town in Eastern Europe and I bought her a Samsung Tablet to use with Skype so we can talk to her without paying ridiculous international rates(her house had 100mbps internet but no landline for phone, only GSM which was expensive to call).
Anyway, at some point Skype and later Samsung decided that we can't call grandma without her accepting the terms and conditions. The problem is that she has all kind of illnesses and she can't see the screen well and can't manage a touchscreen well. Also can't get it fixed by someone else because pretty much everyone is very old in the town.
During the height of the pandemic I had to do an international travel because she wanted to see us. I Gave her my old iPhone 7 and use FaceTime now, with auto answer setting turned on in the accessibility. Works like a charm since then, as good and simple as a traditional dumb phone.
People making these UX really should think better.
> I Give her my old iPhone 7 and use FaceTime now, with auto answer setting turned on in the accessibility.
I didn't know this feature existed. Quite thoughtful!
I didn't know this feature existed. Quite thoughtful!
unfortunately Apple seems to be the only consumer brand on earth which actually gives a crap about real disabled folks using their devices and making their lives better because of it
I am heavily critical of Apple for a number of different reasons, and if they weren't so heavy handed with their control then there would be third party options out there. But utlimately I very much agree and I think Apple deserves praise for that. I wish more companies would invest in it (although to some extent I concede that it is a luxury that deep-pocket companies can afford that smaller companies can't).
I don't like Apple and have never owned any of their devices, but if I ever went blind or developed parkinsons or simply got quite old I would drop any other brand and go full in with them.
It's astonishing how they keep adding extremely useful things update over update buried in the accessibility settings. I guess they know they have a stronghold when it comes to serving disabled people so they do their best to keep that market sector extremely happy.
It's astonishing how they keep adding extremely useful things update over update buried in the accessibility settings. I guess they know they have a stronghold when it comes to serving disabled people so they do their best to keep that market sector extremely happy.
In general, the things that Apple does differently really do add up. That $3 Trillion isn't an accident.
I keep an old iPhone around for if I misplace mine. Turn it on, log in, everything is just there - no ads, no update loops, nada. Works perfectly. My Androids have NEVER done that.
I keep an old iPhone around for if I misplace mine. Turn it on, log in, everything is just there - no ads, no update loops, nada. Works perfectly. My Androids have NEVER done that.
Have you seen the Xbox Adaptive Controller?
https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...
https://www.xbox.com/en-US/accessories/controllers/xbox-adap...
Yep, Apple's accessibility stuff are awesome. I use another old iPhone the same way as a pet cam, but for some reason that one is not very reliable and doesn't always connect but that particular iPhone always had issues.
Just FYI - you can replace your head unit even on newer cars. There's a bustling aftermarket industry for this kind of stuff:
https://www.belsee.com/android-car-radio/hyundai-radio.html
This way - your data gets abused by the Chinese government instead of Hyundai!
(I kid, sort of, but these head units let you exert more control over your car, as they often ship rooted, or can be rooted)
If you DIY install the head unit, you can often completely pay for the head unit and have cash left over by selling your old head unit to someone who needs one. (Lots of people need a stock head unit, because theirs got stolen, or they bought a salvage title without a head unit, or whatever).
https://www.belsee.com/android-car-radio/hyundai-radio.html
This way - your data gets abused by the Chinese government instead of Hyundai!
(I kid, sort of, but these head units let you exert more control over your car, as they often ship rooted, or can be rooted)
If you DIY install the head unit, you can often completely pay for the head unit and have cash left over by selling your old head unit to someone who needs one. (Lots of people need a stock head unit, because theirs got stolen, or they bought a salvage title without a head unit, or whatever).
I'd pay to just not have one, but I'm not even sure that's possible any more. I'm really not looking forward to when I'm forced to buy a new car - few things make me more mad than smartphone tech with universally slow and terrible UX, duck-taped onto machines, let alone dangerous machines.
> I'd pay to just not have one, but I'm not even sure that's possible any more.
Yeah, some stuff makes you go through the head unit on some machines. Any replacement head unit would have to implement the same controls somehow.
Wealthy will be the person who makes a generic 2 DIN head unit, where you have physical buttons which you can map to various CANBus messages.
Yeah, some stuff makes you go through the head unit on some machines. Any replacement head unit would have to implement the same controls somehow.
Wealthy will be the person who makes a generic 2 DIN head unit, where you have physical buttons which you can map to various CANBus messages.
I'm working on a generic device that sends canbus messages, that can have inputs such as potentiometer, push buttons, toggle switches, and rotary encoders. My end goal is to have real hvac controls on my Tesla, but I'd like to abstract the device as much as possible. Fun project, and most of the hardware necessary is already out there.
I've been hoping somebody would do that.
I have a only half-joking business idea to build high-quality physical controls for all of the crap touchscreen shit being forced upon us. High-end ovens for example rarely now include physical controls so (I'm looking at you Miele) so I would like an aftermarket thing that sticks on to the outside of it. Maybe even directly over the touch screen. Actually, hmm, that's a good idea. Maybe we need a device that is the size of various standard touch screens that can read the contents of the screen, interpret them, and then have some sort of way to do capacitance touch on the screen. All of this of course hidden from the user who just wants a damned analog knob.
I have a only half-joking business idea to build high-quality physical controls for all of the crap touchscreen shit being forced upon us. High-end ovens for example rarely now include physical controls so (I'm looking at you Miele) so I would like an aftermarket thing that sticks on to the outside of it. Maybe even directly over the touch screen. Actually, hmm, that's a good idea. Maybe we need a device that is the size of various standard touch screens that can read the contents of the screen, interpret them, and then have some sort of way to do capacitance touch on the screen. All of this of course hidden from the user who just wants a damned analog knob.
That is super badass and I'd love to have something like that.
Does the factory display/controls use the canbus to do their work? How much stuff can you reasonably do through that? Do you know if it varies between manufacturers?
Does the factory display/controls use the canbus to do their work? How much stuff can you reasonably do through that? Do you know if it varies between manufacturers?
The problem is, there's not just one "CAN/LIN bus." There are probably a dozen different segments. One device attached to one segment can only talk to the upstream gateway and whatever peripherals are on that bus segment.
Of course this isn't a problem per se, it's good design -- but it has the side effect of making it harder to hack your own car through a single point of entry other than the main OBD2 port, which is connected to the top-level gateway.
Of course this isn't a problem per se, it's good design -- but it has the side effect of making it harder to hack your own car through a single point of entry other than the main OBD2 port, which is connected to the top-level gateway.
> it has the side effect of making it harder to hack your own car through a single point of entry other than the main OBD2 port
Thanks! Do you know by chance if the OBD2 port can talk to/control everything? Would that be a good entrypoint?
Thanks! Do you know by chance if the OBD2 port can talk to/control everything? Would that be a good entrypoint?
In my own VW group cars, the CAN bus pins on the OBD2 port do have access to everything. I don't know if that's true for all/most cars in general, though.
Awesome! I demand links! Give me a GitHub I can watch and contribute too. My soldering iron is already hot! LFG!
You're touching on a real opportunity, going down a open hardware canbus-dash computer.
This is one of those rare 'holy shit do this right now' kind of things.
This is one of those rare 'holy shit do this right now' kind of things.
Seriously. I have zero use for a touch screen in a car.
Maps? When I drive I look at... the road. If I need directions, google maps can tell me to turn left etc by voice commands.
Maps? When I drive I look at... the road. If I need directions, google maps can tell me to turn left etc by voice commands.
Eh I'm anti touch screen controls, but as a motorcyclist driving in a foreign country relying on voice directions I need the visual input too. There's a big difference between audio only directions for a spaghetti junction and being able to glance at the visual and combine that with the audio.
You take your eyes off the road all the time doing head checks (blind spot checks), so long as you're not staring at the map I think the benefit of being sure about where you're going is safer
You take your eyes off the road all the time doing head checks (blind spot checks), so long as you're not staring at the map I think the benefit of being sure about where you're going is safer
My Ioniq 5 (ironically, a Hyundai...) puts turn by turn directions on the HUD, if you want--eyes stay on the road, but you get full visual feedback. To me that's the best of both worlds. Downside is it only works with the on-board nav and not CarPlay/AA.
Sounds like google maps, am i right? Almost any other navigation product will do a combination of zooming in and displaying actual road signs with clearly marked intersections etc. Maps is useless without also turning on voice.
I don't think I could live without it anymore, but I have a really tight parking situation at home and the parking sensors that are exposed through the head unit are really useful. Not to mention navigation and all that stuff. These features are really considered standard now by most (but definitely not all) people.
I had that in a car from 2008 or so. Camera feed switched on when you were reversing, but no touch screen.
Radar parking sensor are very useful. Not sure if you had that in 2008.
In my car, this all comes in via the head unit. Critical driving stuff isn't allowed to be in the head unit (wisely), parking display doesn't come up as critical although the sensors are technically available even if the head unit is fried, which I found out when my head unit failed (car was still drivable, but many nice things gone).
In my car, this all comes in via the head unit. Critical driving stuff isn't allowed to be in the head unit (wisely), parking display doesn't come up as critical although the sensors are technically available even if the head unit is fried, which I found out when my head unit failed (car was still drivable, but many nice things gone).
It wasn't radar, it was just a camera feed that activated when I put it in reverse.
...people actually use voice commands? I've not used them in any GPS for like 10+ years nor do I know anyone who has audible navigation enabled.
what's the alternative - looking at a screen? I want to concentrate on driving.
I personally find that having to pay attention to visual prompts(turn right in 1km) makes me far more focused on the road than listening to the prompts, which can come without any warning and don't allow you to appreciate what is going to happen with enough warning. I usually glance and see that in 10km I'm taking the 3rd exit at the roundabout, then I know for next 10km I can focus entirely at the road, take 3rd exit at the roundabout and then will glance for next instruction again.
In previous discussions about how shitty touchscreen car interfaces are, people have been mentioning that new cars must provide a backup camera. I'd like to have just the camera, but why would manufacturers stop there when they can ship spyware as well? The screen is the expensive part.
Touch screens are actually incredibly cheap off the shelf components compared to all of the bespoke physical buttons and dials required to kit out a car.
Both of my older vehicles have aftermarket head units and I absolutely love them. It's definitely a lot of faff to get them in and working, but a few hundred dollars and some frustrating weekends beats buying an entire new car loaded to the gills with spyware that wants a subscription fee for it's heated seats.
And you don't need to worry about the chinese government if you just never connect the things to the internet, which I never do. They are a conveyance for CarPlay access and nothing more.
And you don't need to worry about the chinese government if you just never connect the things to the internet, which I never do. They are a conveyance for CarPlay access and nothing more.
It's tricky for some cars. Things like non-standard sizes for the opening. Important functionality baked into the head unit (Volvo, for example, has paths to configure some safety options, trip/mpg display, etc). Integration for steering wheel controls, rear displays, backup cameras. And more that I'm missing off the top of my head.
For some vehicles, some of the above have options to tie in with a 3rd party setup, others don't.
For some vehicles, some of the above have options to tie in with a 3rd party setup, others don't.
My current head unit for (admittedly a 10 year old VW) does all of those things.
Backup camera, steering wheel buttons, MPG, fuel level, low tire warnings...
It's actually really impressive for for $190 I spent on it.
The only thing which it disabled when I replaced the head unit was the built-in handsfree bluetooth stuff. It all goes through the stereo now (and doesn't work that great). YMMV on these aftermarket head units.
A lot of the stock head units look like weird sizes, but it's really just trim on the front of it looking highly custom. Aftermarket units sometimes (often?) come with matching trim pieces to make it look OEM.
Backup camera, steering wheel buttons, MPG, fuel level, low tire warnings...
It's actually really impressive for for $190 I spent on it.
The only thing which it disabled when I replaced the head unit was the built-in handsfree bluetooth stuff. It all goes through the stereo now (and doesn't work that great). YMMV on these aftermarket head units.
A lot of the stock head units look like weird sizes, but it's really just trim on the front of it looking highly custom. Aftermarket units sometimes (often?) come with matching trim pieces to make it look OEM.
Sure. Just saying there are some setups that either don't work, or don't work completely. Steering wheel controls is a good example. You can go to the product site for one of those expensive integration units, and their "product fit guide" will show you it works with some cars and not others.
And, yes, some cars can fit a head unit even though the opening looks odd. Others can't, at all. Volvo has several cars in that category.
And, yes, some cars can fit a head unit even though the opening looks odd. Others can't, at all. Volvo has several cars in that category.
In some cars this means you are unable to hear the beeping of the proximity sensors. I would guess that you'd also lose any 360° camera views as well.
It's worth mentioning these screens are not crash tested and can become shards of glass in an accident.
Tangent: I would love if there was a place that did car reviews that actually talked about UI. Car interfaces are such a huge part of the experience of driving now, and none of the car review channels I watch give it more than a couple sentences. If they ever mention the UI at all, it's to say whether it feels "snappy", or if it supports CarPlay, or how large the touch screen is. I want a deep dive into more of the details, since it's something I'll use every day and which really, really does factor in to my purchasing decisions.
Totally agree. I went a fairly long time (>10 years) between car purchases and was shocked at how terrible the interfaces are in most new cars. That and creepy spyware were two of the main differentiators for me, and it can be hard to find that information on a range of cars.
Interesting, I agree that would be really nice. Have you looked around for such a thing? It seems like such an obvious idea, there's got to be people doing it!
Doug DeMuro
I like his channel, the videos I've seen do not really go into depth about UI.
I bought a Nissan this year. I paired my phone and granted access to contacts, but not messages. Every time I turn it on it shows a popup asking to grant access to my phone's messages. I decline each time, and each time it comes back. It's like they build these products with complete disregard for user choice. "We don't care that they decline, show it again until they submit". I've been a developer of products that do this, and it's never a bug, it's always intentional. You mention to the product manager how this is undesirable behavior, and sometimes even implement it in a choice respecting way, but are quickly overridden and asked to correct.
Another variation of this is the popup that only has "accept" and "remind me later buttons". It's even worse when it happens in work applications. Zoho does this. You open Zoho books, the accounting SaaS, and every X days after login, they show you a full page notice about some product/feature with options to "accept" and "remind me later". Imagine this in the middle of you rushing to create an invoice.
I'm a paying customer, so I send them an email complaining and they ask me to send them a screenshot of the exact notice. I'm currently looking for alternatives.
I'm a paying customer, so I send them an email complaining and they ask me to send them a screenshot of the exact notice. I'm currently looking for alternatives.
Oh boy, this makes me think differently of Zoho. I previously had a rather favorable image of them, now that image is quite a bit worse.
Companies should be shamed for this and the reputational damage should far outweigh whatever little gain figuratively spitting in the user's face would have.
Companies should be shamed for this and the reputational damage should far outweigh whatever little gain figuratively spitting in the user's face would have.
Anything that has a "yes/later" instead of a "yes/no" goes on my list of things to remove from my life when practical. I promise this bullshit from any company will lose you at least me.
I got this one twice already. Ironically if you choose yes, it will say "cannot view while driving" and then it goes away till the next time you start driving.
I enjoy the corporate sense of comedic timing that went into the decision to have it wait till you're driving again.
Its as if the reasoning behind it was "when the popup comes up, stop, switch to parking mode so you can read the new terms of service, then continue your trip".
The first time I got it a month ago I just left it on screen till I reached my destination and went through the terms. I got another update yesterday, i just dismissed it, will see it again tomorrow for sure.
The first time I got it a month ago I just left it on screen till I reached my destination and went through the terms. I got another update yesterday, i just dismissed it, will see it again tomorrow for sure.
That scenario is so comically dystopian. Nobody cares about the terms because they can't do anything about them anyway, so just leave people alone.. Also, stop changing the terms so much.
My guess is it's all about liability, and possibly regulation. Nowadays our culture demands that products force people to be safe, rather than expecting people to choose to be safe and accepting the consequences if they mess up.
I wish I could laugh at the idiocy, but it's too personal and enfuriating to me to be funny. The enraging thing for me is that it makes my car unusable for the passenger even though that person isn't even driving!!! A human is so much better at making that decision at drive-time than the dumb software. At least use the damn airbag sensor in the seat, and if there's a passenger, let them use the controls!!!
I wish I could laugh at the idiocy, but it's too personal and enfuriating to me to be funny. The enraging thing for me is that it makes my car unusable for the passenger even though that person isn't even driving!!! A human is so much better at making that decision at drive-time than the dumb software. At least use the damn airbag sensor in the seat, and if there's a passenger, let them use the controls!!!
What a farce
And what if you disagree with it?
And what if you disagree with it?
Well, the photographed prompt says do you want to review them, not do you agree to them. My guess is that in Big Corp. Inc.'s mind, you don't have a choice about agreeing to them—er, ahem I mean you agreed to all possible future updates to our Terms & Conditions when you purchased the vehicle. Oh and your agreement is subject to forced binding arbitration — see here, in your contract, in 0.2 pt font?
Thanks to the new tech wave, my guess is that you don't actually own your device even though you "bought" it, so if you disagree with it then they will just shut it down and it's on you to either agree or sell it.
I hope (and if I thought there was any point in praying, would do that too) that a car company like Toyota will go against this trend and empower the owner to own things. I bought a new Toyota this year and I worry that they're in the process of making the Toyota smartphone app mandatory, though it isn't yet.
I hope (and if I thought there was any point in praying, would do that too) that a car company like Toyota will go against this trend and empower the owner to own things. I bought a new Toyota this year and I worry that they're in the process of making the Toyota smartphone app mandatory, though it isn't yet.
My take from the screenshot and description is you’re just disagreeing to read it now, it doesn’t appear there’s any way to actually disagree with the terms of service update itself.
haven't tried that but I would assume you get locked out of bluelink connectivity.
You get locked out of a feature that you paid for? Presumably adding that feature increased car sales, otherwise why would the company develop the feature in the first place?
My 2017 Chevy Bolt EV does something like this. Any time the infotainment system restarts, and at some seemingly random times, it displays a dialog with a whole paragraph of text about how the driver needs to keep their eyes on the road, and not on the screen[1]. Sometimes these reboots occur while driving, so it sometimes displays this long distracting message about avoiding distractions while one is in active traffic. Bananas.
[1] https://i.redd.it/tslqa8b29lua1.jpg
[1] https://i.redd.it/tslqa8b29lua1.jpg
There are some of these, where you really wonder how somebody inside a major company like Chevy could actually arrive at this. Multiple people have to code, check, authorize, and push software like this. Apparently without complaint, like they don't drive cars themselves.
Unfortunately, this feels a bit like female clothing with "Don't Look Here!" emblazoned right across the front.
Unfortunately, this feels a bit like female clothing with "Don't Look Here!" emblazoned right across the front.
SiriusXM periodically demands that I assent to their new terms and conditions (despite the fact that I’m frequently on a trial or pre-paid subscription). I think I can ignore/dismiss it indefinitely without it cutting service to the radio but eventually I get so tired of seeing it each time I start my car, I just agree to it. So, exactly what they want to happen. Well played, SiriusXM.
I sort of can’t believe that there haven’t been more court cases on clickwrap licenses. They seem pretty obviously to be procedurally unconscionable, but I guess there’s generally no money in challenging them. I wish at least Congress would make arbitration provisions illegal in consumer contracts (or at a minimum require a meaningful opportunity to opt out).
I sort of can’t believe that there haven’t been more court cases on clickwrap licenses. They seem pretty obviously to be procedurally unconscionable, but I guess there’s generally no money in challenging them. I wish at least Congress would make arbitration provisions illegal in consumer contracts (or at a minimum require a meaningful opportunity to opt out).
There needs to be clear regulation, with defined penalties or precedent, forbidding the practice for these to go to court.
Reminds me of the old "If cars were like computers" post.
https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ss44/joke/crash.htm
https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ss44/joke/crash.htm
This list is hilarious, by my calculations about 5 of the 10 sarcastic scenarios they presented have become 100% true of the cars they themselves sell today.
Indeed, number 10 is a dead ringer and many others are too close to true for comfort. I had to pull over on the side of the road and completely stop and restart (reboot) my F-350 a number of times to get the radio to work again. Luckily that model had redundant physical controls for the environmental controls...
> Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
> $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.
Disregarding the massive waste of resources for building so many new cars, that actually sounds like a great deal compared to today.
> $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.
Disregarding the massive waste of resources for building so many new cars, that actually sounds like a great deal compared to today.
25$ and 1000 miles to gallon. Probably correct, but it would also be size of tiny toy car...
Car makers are speedrunning that list.
I've seen a GMC SUV with a popup that says not to take your eyes off the road. It may come on while in Park, but it remains once in Drive, preventing any use of the screen until you ... take your eyes off the road to tap OK on the touchscreen. It pops up every other month or so.
There's probably a less-dangerous way to deliver the message that doesn't involve engaging in the activity cited in the message itself.
That'd be like handing out free cigarettes to non-smokers that have "cigarettes are bad for you" printed on them.
There's probably a less-dangerous way to deliver the message that doesn't involve engaging in the activity cited in the message itself.
That'd be like handing out free cigarettes to non-smokers that have "cigarettes are bad for you" printed on them.
Is there any car company or car accessory company that could get things like this correct?
Not even Apple can get it correct it seems, as in CarPlay, if there is a incoming call, it covers the entire screen with the person/info who is calling, so if you're using navigation, until you either reject the call or pick up, it hides the maps behind the notification...
Not even Apple can get it correct it seems, as in CarPlay, if there is a incoming call, it covers the entire screen with the person/info who is calling, so if you're using navigation, until you either reject the call or pick up, it hides the maps behind the notification...
It's fine to figure out how to pull the damn sim card on vehicles.
There is 0 reason my car needs a cloud connection. It's job is to convey person from A -> B. That is it.
There is 0 reason my car needs a cloud connection. It's job is to convey person from A -> B. That is it.
Nah I like having an app for my car. The ability to preheat/precool the car from anywhere as well as see detailed stats for every journey is worth it(for me).
It's fine to leave it in if you like those features but many people couldn't care less about them and hate the distracting popups, spying, and auto-updates that change functionality.
I have that in an EV that doesn't even really have a screen to show you any popups on(Volkswagen e-Up). The car has remote connectivity that I can use to set climate control to selected temperature and see detailed energy consumption stats but inside the car it's very analogue, there is a basic screen for the radio(operated with buttons, not a touchscreen) but that's literally it, even the driver cluster still uses analogue gauges.
Yes, but these things are not a requirement for a connected car.
I suspect these user hostile behaviours will go away eventually, either through legislation or through more aware customers.
[deleted]
This reminds me of a problem I have with most hardware and software: being hassled about things like updates or T&Cs when you start to use them rather than after you have used them.
Ask me to do firmware updates when I try to shut a device down, not when I turn it on. Ask me to update some software when I close a document, not when I launch it to do some work. All that happens is I skip the intrusion to carry on with what I intended to do and then forget about the request. (Windows is a good exception to this and it'll remind me to do its updates on shut down.)
Ask me to do firmware updates when I try to shut a device down, not when I turn it on. Ask me to update some software when I close a document, not when I launch it to do some work. All that happens is I skip the intrusion to carry on with what I intended to do and then forget about the request. (Windows is a good exception to this and it'll remind me to do its updates on shut down.)
> Ask me to do firmware updates when I try to shut a device down, not when I turn it on. Ask me to update some software when I close a document, not when I launch it to do some work.
Just yesterday, I was at the grocery store and needed to check my shopping list on my phone. When I unlocked my phone, I found that it had (entirely on its own) connected to the insecure store wifi, and was downloading a 1GB+ update package. I was unable to stop this download, and it warned me that if I left wifi range it would continue the download over mobile data. Immediately upon finishing the download, the phone displayed a full-screen countdown stating that it was rebooting to install the system update.
Reluctantly, I gave up on checking my shopping list, placed my phone back into my pocket, purchased the items I could remember adding to the list, and went home. I have no idea how long the installation took, but the next time I checked my phone, it had successfully installed the update.
This is exactly the type of thing that makes me despise technology.
Just yesterday, I was at the grocery store and needed to check my shopping list on my phone. When I unlocked my phone, I found that it had (entirely on its own) connected to the insecure store wifi, and was downloading a 1GB+ update package. I was unable to stop this download, and it warned me that if I left wifi range it would continue the download over mobile data. Immediately upon finishing the download, the phone displayed a full-screen countdown stating that it was rebooting to install the system update.
Reluctantly, I gave up on checking my shopping list, placed my phone back into my pocket, purchased the items I could remember adding to the list, and went home. I have no idea how long the installation took, but the next time I checked my phone, it had successfully installed the update.
This is exactly the type of thing that makes me despise technology.
Name and shame
My Samsung phone has forced updates even worse than this. It will download an update silently in the background and will nag me with a new notification every couple of hours. It will let me delay the update for a random length of time before just rebooting on its own. The last update let me delay for something like 10 hours, but I've also had it reboot in the middle of the day while I was using my phone to show something to a customer.
This has also soft-bricked my device more than once. I use a custom launcher, and Samsung apparently doesn't like that, so the system updates can get me stuck in a loop where the launcher repeatedly crashes.
There is no way at all to disable auto updates or stop the process once an update has been acquired. I've even tried blocking IPs in my router, but it seems to change addresses now and then. My only option is to just always keep WiFi off. It thankfully won't download over the cell network.
I'm never buying another Samsung product. I hate this phone more than I have any other piece of technology.
The idea that some company can at any moment force my device to download gigabytes of unknown data and run anything they want on my device without my knowledge or consent is just reprehensible. I paid over a thousand dollars for this piece of crap and I don't even own it. It's utterly ridiculous.
Every few weeks I get a new notification that the Samsung EULA has updated. I just dismiss them. It's not like it matters if I agree or not.
This has also soft-bricked my device more than once. I use a custom launcher, and Samsung apparently doesn't like that, so the system updates can get me stuck in a loop where the launcher repeatedly crashes.
There is no way at all to disable auto updates or stop the process once an update has been acquired. I've even tried blocking IPs in my router, but it seems to change addresses now and then. My only option is to just always keep WiFi off. It thankfully won't download over the cell network.
I'm never buying another Samsung product. I hate this phone more than I have any other piece of technology.
The idea that some company can at any moment force my device to download gigabytes of unknown data and run anything they want on my device without my knowledge or consent is just reprehensible. I paid over a thousand dollars for this piece of crap and I don't even own it. It's utterly ridiculous.
Every few weeks I get a new notification that the Samsung EULA has updated. I just dismiss them. It's not like it matters if I agree or not.
Dang, so this is a recent Samsung phone then? I've heard really good things about Samsung though the last one I used was the Galaxy S3 and that was my wife's phone.
What are you going to get instead? I've been pleased with the Pixel line and have delayed updates for many weeks. It will just nag me with a popup every week or so but never forces. OnePlus I've also been very pleased with and have never even gotten a nag from them.
What are you going to get instead? I've been pleased with the Pixel line and have delayed updates for many weeks. It will just nag me with a popup every week or so but never forces. OnePlus I've also been very pleased with and have never even gotten a nag from them.
Note 10+. It was their flagship model 3 or 4 years ago.
I can't decide what phone to replace it with. I love the idea of the pinephone but it's way too cheap. The other open source options are way too expensive.
The best option seems to be a Pixel device with a custom OS, but I'm loath to give google money.
Under no circumstances will I buy another phone that I can't run a custom OS on.
I can't decide what phone to replace it with. I love the idea of the pinephone but it's way too cheap. The other open source options are way too expensive.
The best option seems to be a Pixel device with a custom OS, but I'm loath to give google money.
Under no circumstances will I buy another phone that I can't run a custom OS on.
You don't have an "Auto Download Over Wifi" option under Software Update in settings? I can uncheck that on my S23.
I don't mind the at the start of vs in the middle of. After is never going to happen as you just force quit the app to ignore it if it is prevent quit.
What country do they drive in MPH with the steering wheel on the right side of the car?
I've heard a lot of references to "miles" in British culture, but I assumed that was habits of older people. I thought the UK was all metric by now?
I've heard a lot of references to "miles" in British culture, but I assumed that was habits of older people. I thought the UK was all metric by now?
Yeah, this'll be the UK.
We use a mix of imperial and metric, so you'll see "300m to next service station" and also "30 mph" speed limits :).
People typically weigh themselves in stone and lbs, yet the food we buy is weighed in grams
We use a mix of imperial and metric, so you'll see "300m to next service station" and also "30 mph" speed limits :).
People typically weigh themselves in stone and lbs, yet the food we buy is weighed in grams
I often convert these new fangled units back into old money. Chains per fluid ounce (Ch/FlOz) is so much easier to comprehend.
I jest but that isn't as mad as our pre-decimalization currency. We were still spending coins that called themselves a shilling and calling them five pence (and 2s as 10p) for quite a few years afterwards.
I jest but that isn't as mad as our pre-decimalization currency. We were still spending coins that called themselves a shilling and calling them five pence (and 2s as 10p) for quite a few years afterwards.
Fun fact: chains and furlongs are the archaic intermediary unit that get you from our smallest unit (inches) to our largest unit (miles) in a way that isn't completely insane (i.e. "simply 5280 feet to the mile"). It's really:
- 12 inches to the foot
- 3 feet to the yard
- 22 yards to the chain
- 10 chains to the furlong
- 8 furlongs to the mile
Using even more archaic units we can simplify further:
- 8 inches to the link
- 100 links to the chain
- 10 chains to the furlong
- 8 furlongs to the mile
And 1 acre is 1 chain by 1 furlong, or 10 square chains.
- 12 inches to the foot
- 3 feet to the yard
- 22 yards to the chain
- 10 chains to the furlong
- 8 furlongs to the mile
Using even more archaic units we can simplify further:
- 8 inches to the link
- 100 links to the chain
- 10 chains to the furlong
- 8 furlongs to the mile
And 1 acre is 1 chain by 1 furlong, or 10 square chains.
Are you calling me archaic?
A rod, pole or perch. A rod was 12 feet and it was the width of the land ploughed in a day. A furlough was the length. Roughly.
A rod, pole or perch. A rod was 12 feet and it was the width of the land ploughed in a day. A furlough was the length. Roughly.
The UK.
Europe's last stronghold against the French Revolution's dictate of the metric system.
Europe's last stronghold against the French Revolution's dictate of the metric system.
I think Rosie weighed in at 19 stone, but maybe she was Australian...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5XAXzWt5wc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5XAXzWt5wc
In Scotland it’s kgs
Metric in many things, and I was taught metric exclusively through school in the early 80s in England.
Road signs and limits all still in miles exclusively.
People still refer to each other in feet and inches although official stuff often wants cms. TVs still in inches.
It's not as bad as America, because Brits have a very solid understand of metric and tend to use it whenever we can, but still needs work :(
Road signs and limits all still in miles exclusively.
People still refer to each other in feet and inches although official stuff often wants cms. TVs still in inches.
It's not as bad as America, because Brits have a very solid understand of metric and tend to use it whenever we can, but still needs work :(
I definitely acknowledge I don't live there so I can't truly know, but I feel like I'd just prefer to live in a region where everything is consistent instead of constantly changing units all the time. We want to talk meters? Sure, We want to talk miles? That's fine. But something like "Ipswitch is 90km from Cambridge, you're going 40 miles per hour, how long till you get there?" just seems annoying to me, more annoying than just saying its like 55 miles and you're going 40 miles an hour so it'll be just under 50 minutes or so.
Or like a recipe calls for 1 pint of something that you've got 500mL containers of. Do you bother opening another 500mL container for that last 68mL?
Or like a recipe calls for 1 pint of something that you've got 500mL containers of. Do you bother opening another 500mL container for that last 68mL?
British recipes use ml. You’d rarely see a pint in a British recipe unless ir was quite old. American recipes use pints and - even more insane - cups.
British distance is measured in miles unless it’s a short distance under half a mile in which it’s metres or unless it’s someone old in which case it will be yards or feet. Of a horse race, in which case it’s yards and furlongs.
Land is measured in acres but industrial land in hectares.
Rooms are measured in feet and inches unless it’s for official purposes in which case it’s metres.
Liquid is measured in ml and litres unless it’s beer - which is measured in pints - or petrol which is measured in litres but talked about in gallons.
If you buy a fish you will weight it in grams and kilos. If you catch a fish you’ll measure it in pounds and ounces.
Buy suits and shirts and you measure in inches. Buy the cloth to make it yourself and it’s measured in linear metres.
British distance is measured in miles unless it’s a short distance under half a mile in which it’s metres or unless it’s someone old in which case it will be yards or feet. Of a horse race, in which case it’s yards and furlongs.
Land is measured in acres but industrial land in hectares.
Rooms are measured in feet and inches unless it’s for official purposes in which case it’s metres.
Liquid is measured in ml and litres unless it’s beer - which is measured in pints - or petrol which is measured in litres but talked about in gallons.
If you buy a fish you will weight it in grams and kilos. If you catch a fish you’ll measure it in pounds and ounces.
Buy suits and shirts and you measure in inches. Buy the cloth to make it yourself and it’s measured in linear metres.
> American recipes use pints and - even more insane - cups.
How are cups even more insane than pints?
How are cups even more insane than pints?
Because a pint is a defined measure, but a cup is just… random. Should I use a big cup or a little cup? A teacup? A coffee cup? What about that giant mug from can measure butter in cups but also flour, and oil and water. I can pour 50ml of liquid by eye and be accurate to a ml. I can cut 50g of butter from a block and be accurate to a couple of grams. A cup though? God help me.
I do not understand cups!
I do not understand cups!
> Because a pint is a defined measure, but a cup is just… random.
A cup is a defined measure equal to 1/2 pint. (Or, equivalently, 8 fluid ounces.)
Or, since you can pour by eye to within 1ml, more useful to you might be ~236.6ml
A cup is a defined measure equal to 1/2 pint. (Or, equivalently, 8 fluid ounces.)
Or, since you can pour by eye to within 1ml, more useful to you might be ~236.6ml
See, I had no idea about that because we just don’t use cups here. But as I pointed out elsewhere it’s not about liquids - the thing that confuses me with cups is solids because 50g of butter = 50g of flour but 1 cup of butter does not equal one cup of flour.
Well your butter example is pretty easy for lots of butter sold in the US. They're sold as a box of sticks each stick wrapped in thin wax paper. The wrapper has marks for every tablespoon of butter. Each stick is half a cup. A box is four sticks so it's two cups aka a pint. So if you need a cup of butter, it's just two sticks.
Which is an example of how I'd rather things just be consistent instead of mixing units. If things are sold in pints, I'd prefer everything else I work with to be in tablespoons/cups/pints. If things are sold in liters and kilograms, I'll want things sold in reasonable divisions of those as well for the given application. When you just know half a cup is one stick or you need two tablespoons aka two ticks on the wrapper, its easy. When cream comes in pint bottles and you need a cup, you know its just half the bottle.
I do agree though, things start falling apart when recipes ask for like 2/3 a cup and you've got a pint, but if you're the kind of person who can figure out pouring something to +-1mL one could also learn how to pour just about 2/3 a cup every time.
Which is an example of how I'd rather things just be consistent instead of mixing units. If things are sold in pints, I'd prefer everything else I work with to be in tablespoons/cups/pints. If things are sold in liters and kilograms, I'll want things sold in reasonable divisions of those as well for the given application. When you just know half a cup is one stick or you need two tablespoons aka two ticks on the wrapper, its easy. When cream comes in pint bottles and you need a cup, you know its just half the bottle.
I do agree though, things start falling apart when recipes ask for like 2/3 a cup and you've got a pint, but if you're the kind of person who can figure out pouring something to +-1mL one could also learn how to pour just about 2/3 a cup every time.
So hold on… butter is sold in sticks, marked in tablespoons, collected in boxes and split into cups?
This is great work, you’re a creature after my own heart!
This thing about cups is that 50g of flour = 50g of butter but 1 cup of flour does not equal 1 cup of butter. For me cups make sense for liquids but not for solids.
This is great work, you’re a creature after my own heart!
This thing about cups is that 50g of flour = 50g of butter but 1 cup of flour does not equal 1 cup of butter. For me cups make sense for liquids but not for solids.
Cups are a volumetric measurement, not a mass measurement. 1 cup of flour == 1 cup of butter in the same way that 500mL of flour == 500mL of butter. You just don't normally measure flour in mL.
This is confusing because there are fluid ounces (usually labeled as FL OZ) which are a measurement of volume and are subdivisions of cups (a tablespoon being 1/2 FL OZ, 8 FL OZ in a cup) while there are also just ounces (OZ) which are a subdivision of pounds which is a measurement of weight. Which, weight and mass aren't necessarily the same things.
Because cups are a volume measurement, 1 cup of brand X flour might be a different amount of grams than 1 cup of brand Z flour. Still though, 1 cup brand X == 1 cup brand Z == 1 cup butter == 1 cup maple syrup, when measuring in cups. Different amounts of mass, same amount of volume. Loads of people cooking at home don't really care that much, or they'll just standardize on one brand of flour so its pretty close every time. Or for the majority of the dry goods for baking they'll end up buying some form of mix to use that's already measured they just need to add butter/oil/eggs/water/whatever. Professional bakers and those who really care will use scales and go by mass/weight for their measurements and not by "cups" for things like flour.
Here's an example photo of a pretty typical stick of butter:
https://sweetsandthankyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Mea...
They'll pretty much always have marks for tablespoons. Some of these other markings on the wrapper will vary from brand to brand. Each stick is 8 tablespoons, which is 1/2 a cup. They are then sold in a box of 2-4 sticks, which is either 1 cup or 1 pint (a pint being 2 cups). Like this:
https://images.heb.com/is/image/HEBGrocery/000113910-1
I greatly prefer this pre-graduated way of selling a product like this which is pretty much the standard of normal butter sold. There are other butters and margarines which are sold in tubs or odd sized blocks, but those are usually marketed as "spreadable" butters or have things like honey or other stuff mixed in and really more like spreads rather than stuff you'd normally cook with. Not that you need imperial units to have pre-graduated packaging though, just saying its nice having it.
Its bad when a recipe calls for like 1 cup of peanut butter which is sold in jars by weight. Absolute mess trying to measure it by volume.
This is confusing because there are fluid ounces (usually labeled as FL OZ) which are a measurement of volume and are subdivisions of cups (a tablespoon being 1/2 FL OZ, 8 FL OZ in a cup) while there are also just ounces (OZ) which are a subdivision of pounds which is a measurement of weight. Which, weight and mass aren't necessarily the same things.
Because cups are a volume measurement, 1 cup of brand X flour might be a different amount of grams than 1 cup of brand Z flour. Still though, 1 cup brand X == 1 cup brand Z == 1 cup butter == 1 cup maple syrup, when measuring in cups. Different amounts of mass, same amount of volume. Loads of people cooking at home don't really care that much, or they'll just standardize on one brand of flour so its pretty close every time. Or for the majority of the dry goods for baking they'll end up buying some form of mix to use that's already measured they just need to add butter/oil/eggs/water/whatever. Professional bakers and those who really care will use scales and go by mass/weight for their measurements and not by "cups" for things like flour.
Here's an example photo of a pretty typical stick of butter:
https://sweetsandthankyou.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Mea...
They'll pretty much always have marks for tablespoons. Some of these other markings on the wrapper will vary from brand to brand. Each stick is 8 tablespoons, which is 1/2 a cup. They are then sold in a box of 2-4 sticks, which is either 1 cup or 1 pint (a pint being 2 cups). Like this:
https://images.heb.com/is/image/HEBGrocery/000113910-1
I greatly prefer this pre-graduated way of selling a product like this which is pretty much the standard of normal butter sold. There are other butters and margarines which are sold in tubs or odd sized blocks, but those are usually marketed as "spreadable" butters or have things like honey or other stuff mixed in and really more like spreads rather than stuff you'd normally cook with. Not that you need imperial units to have pre-graduated packaging though, just saying its nice having it.
Its bad when a recipe calls for like 1 cup of peanut butter which is sold in jars by weight. Absolute mess trying to measure it by volume.
Valiant attempt but I remain pretty sure that cups as a measurement are insanity!
Also… butter with honey mixed in?? Is this also American?
Also… butter with honey mixed in?? Is this also American?
Oh yes. It's quite delicious.
https://www.landolakes.com/products/butter-spreads/
Cinnamon sugar is very tasty on toast. I just picked up their Maple Me Crazy, it's nice to just quickly spread on a waffle when in a hurry to get out the door. Butters with herbs is pretty common, it's nice in a dinner roll or something like that. This isn't the only brand that makes products like this.
https://www.landolakes.com/products/butter-spreads/
Cinnamon sugar is very tasty on toast. I just picked up their Maple Me Crazy, it's nice to just quickly spread on a waffle when in a hurry to get out the door. Butters with herbs is pretty common, it's nice in a dinner roll or something like that. This isn't the only brand that makes products like this.
Meanwhile, back over here in Europe where we are clearly in the dark ages of culinary-tech if we want something sweet and buttery we have a brioche with confiture and butter. Or a scone with jam and clotted cream. Or a Swedish cinnamon bun. :)
Shameless plug for a friend-of-a-friend's product: https://makeitperfectly.com/bake smart scale that weighs your ingredients and scales the recipe for you if you're a little low/little high. (He's also one of the co-inventors of the Nintendo PowerGlove.)
When I was growing up in the 1980s and 1990s, in the US, we learned both systems. Rulers had inches and centimeters. All packaging had both units. All highways signs had both units.
I don't know why we "regressed," other than to say that when you live with both units, you realize that some metric units are silly, and some metric units make a lot more sense. More specifically, requiring that all units be merely powers of 10 of each other makes it very hard to use the most appropriate unit for the scale you need. (Don't believe me? Why do we have 24 hours in a day? 7 days in a week? 356.25 days in a year?)
IE, it's a lot easier to estimate short distances using feet or millimeters; but kilometers makes a lot of sense for long distances. Understanding "the weather" makes more sense in Fahrenheit, but general science makes more sense in Celsius.
I don't know why we "regressed," other than to say that when you live with both units, you realize that some metric units are silly, and some metric units make a lot more sense. More specifically, requiring that all units be merely powers of 10 of each other makes it very hard to use the most appropriate unit for the scale you need. (Don't believe me? Why do we have 24 hours in a day? 7 days in a week? 356.25 days in a year?)
IE, it's a lot easier to estimate short distances using feet or millimeters; but kilometers makes a lot of sense for long distances. Understanding "the weather" makes more sense in Fahrenheit, but general science makes more sense in Celsius.
The US will switch to metric when we have 10 months in a year, 10 days in a week, 100 (or 1000) days in a year, 10 hours in a day, and 100 seconds in a minute.
Seriously, one thing that I've realized living in a country where metric went over like a loud fart in church is that metric only works when units are arbitrary; but many times we need to measure things that are not arbitrary.
Seriously, one thing that I've realized living in a country where metric went over like a loud fart in church is that metric only works when units are arbitrary; but many times we need to measure things that are not arbitrary.
> because Brits have a very solid understand of metric
As an American, I was taught metric in elementary school 30 years ago. It's used throughout education for science classes. I can't imagine there's many Americans who don't understand the metric system.
We just don't use it for anything outside the sciences, for whatever reason.
As an American, I was taught metric in elementary school 30 years ago. It's used throughout education for science classes. I can't imagine there's many Americans who don't understand the metric system.
We just don't use it for anything outside the sciences, for whatever reason.
And soda bottle sizes
Definitely not.
Having your fuel economy measured in MPG but having your fuel tank size & fillups measured in L is always a fun game.
Having your fuel economy measured in MPG but having your fuel tank size & fillups measured in L is always a fun game.
That’s called “an American drives to Canada”. Is $4/litre expensive? Wait, before you answer, those are also Canadian dollars, so don’t forget the exchange rate. Now, how much, using U. S. dollars, to fill up an eight gallon motorcycle tank?
I have my car set to display L/100km, but that's mostly because it's a hybrid and so kW/100km is more logical than the inverse and it makes sense to have them both operating the same way.
My previous car didn't have an economy reading anyway, so my only frame of reference before was calculating pence per mile rather than MPG. L/100km seems logical and I had got used to it in a matter of weeks. Mine is generally around 5-6L/100km on long, mostly petrol journeys, so this is now my new mental benchmark, and it's also trivial to go from this to pence per litre, and not much more to get to the pence per mile that I thought in before. I guess my brain has got good at multiplying by 1.6 as I use km for running and cycling too.
My previous car didn't have an economy reading anyway, so my only frame of reference before was calculating pence per mile rather than MPG. L/100km seems logical and I had got used to it in a matter of weeks. Mine is generally around 5-6L/100km on long, mostly petrol journeys, so this is now my new mental benchmark, and it's also trivial to go from this to pence per litre, and not much more to get to the pence per mile that I thought in before. I guess my brain has got good at multiplying by 1.6 as I use km for running and cycling too.
And those gallons are different gallons to the American ones too...!
British TV shop "Supersize vs Superskinny" ran between 2008 and 2014, and they still referred to the weight of people in "stones".
Apparently legislation still contains imperial units too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units
Apparently legislation still contains imperial units too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units
If one zooms in on the image, the words "Evesham, United King..." can be read (top right-ish of the display).
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My Ford CMAX tries to update its software when I'm driving. It often attempts for a while, then fails, then loops and tries again (ad infinitum). When this happens, I am locked out of accessing navigation, music controls, etc. At least I still have knobs for climate control.
I will never buy another Ford again for reasons like this. In the past 8 years I've had an F-350 and an Expedition and they both are plagued by software issues. Paired with the impossibility of getting parts, I've been suffering without HVAC for almost two years! It's horribly uncomfortable for 8 months of the year, and downright dangerous the other 4 as the windshield will get covered in fog and frost that makes it difficult to see. Never again.
I'm hesitant to buy any vehicle that has no knobs for climate control, for the safety-related reasons you mention.
I wonder if this could theoretically happen for the main display in front of the steering wheel. Are there safety standards carmakers have to certify to when it comes to speedometer, etc.?
Yes. Extremely strict ones having to do with the visibility, reliability, and availability of certain UI elements as well as warning lights. In the US, this is all governed by the FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards).
This is part of the reason why you'll still see separate warning lights or really weird/ugly overlays for some warnings on modern digital dashboards - in many situations, the safety critical / regulated information is actually being blitted to the screen by a _separate safety processor!_ running an RTOS, while the whiz-bang main display is powered by some commodity SoC running Linux or QNX.
This is part of the reason why you'll still see separate warning lights or really weird/ugly overlays for some warnings on modern digital dashboards - in many situations, the safety critical / regulated information is actually being blitted to the screen by a _separate safety processor!_ running an RTOS, while the whiz-bang main display is powered by some commodity SoC running Linux or QNX.
I really wish smart phone display chipsets had this blit overlay functionality for TOTP (including a per-device symmetric encryption key for importing/exporting TOTP secrets such that the main processor can deny itself future access to the secret, but the phone can still generate TOTP codes, without the TOTP processor needing to store all of the secrets itself).
We've seen multiple secure enclave exploits. It's too bad some of this security functionality isn't baked into the display chipset. Yes, it's probably ugly (even if the chipset allows some forms of theming the TOTP code display), but it's better than having your brokerage account, your work login, etc. all exploited due to some 0day. It's also better than carrying around a handful of RSA physical tokens on your keychain (modulo phone breaking/being stolen/running out of battery).
We've seen multiple secure enclave exploits. It's too bad some of this security functionality isn't baked into the display chipset. Yes, it's probably ugly (even if the chipset allows some forms of theming the TOTP code display), but it's better than having your brokerage account, your work login, etc. all exploited due to some 0day. It's also better than carrying around a handful of RSA physical tokens on your keychain (modulo phone breaking/being stolen/running out of battery).
I have a 2021 Skoda Scala that does this, it’s incredibly annoying. It tells me there is a software update, but in the same message says that it can’t do it while driving…
I rented a skoda this year and I own a VW. They share the same "infotainment" system and it's shit. I otherwise like volkswagen but I can't recommend them based on their awful computer. I joke that it must have been designed by someone who had never been in a car and didn't know what it was for, and by that standard I guess it's decent.
We had a good one recently; it told us to go to the dealership for immediate service, the horn, cruise control and SatNav stopped working. The dealership said that it was a software update needed?!
My 2017 silverado pops up a message telling me to keep my eyes on the road while driving cause it’s dangerous to take your eyes off the road for a long time while the truck is moving.
:D
My parents owned a Renault that would tell you at every single start to obey the traffic regulations. I wish I could slap that car and it would feel it.
My parents owned a Renault that would tell you at every single start to obey the traffic regulations. I wish I could slap that car and it would feel it.
That would be a good use of AI. I'm just affraid that this would directly need to Skynet or something if we slapnoir smart devices too often.
This is why I refuse to buy anything after a certain date when it comes to cars. Luckily I have the ability and resources to maintain and fix my own vehicle.
The unfortunate thing is that sticking to older cars forfeits a lot of safety improvements that've been implemented in the past decade or so, which is more of an issue every day with giant SUVs and trucks having come to dominate the roads.
It's something I've been grappling with lately, with a potential car purchase coming up. I really don't need much more than a mid-late 00s sub-compact Toyota or Honda of some kind but not going with something made in the past ~5 years feels a bit like a gamble.
It's something I've been grappling with lately, with a potential car purchase coming up. I really don't need much more than a mid-late 00s sub-compact Toyota or Honda of some kind but not going with something made in the past ~5 years feels a bit like a gamble.
I'll continue driving my loud gas guzzling 19mpg car for as long as I can keep it going because these ultra connected new cars are abominations
A friend works in environmental science and his advice when it comes to cars and climate is to keep your car for as long as possible, regardless of gas vs. electric. Obviously YMMV but generally speaking the emissions "cost" of manufacturing and delivering the car in the first place is huge, and the way the numbers work out, it's better to amortize that over as long a time as you can than it is to frequently buy a replacement, even if it's electric.
Your friend may understand environmental science, but clearly not economics.
If you don't keep your car you'll sell it. You won't be moving the needle on how long it'll take to amortize that initial manufacturing cost, it'll just happen with someone else driving it.
Likewise if you don't buy a new car someone else will, you're not going to move the needle on the overall supply.
I don't recommend buying new cars, but if you consider the above it's pretty much pollution-neutral.
All you're really doing is paying a premium in order to be the first in a long line of owners to drive that vehicle.
If you don't keep your car you'll sell it. You won't be moving the needle on how long it'll take to amortize that initial manufacturing cost, it'll just happen with someone else driving it.
Likewise if you don't buy a new car someone else will, you're not going to move the needle on the overall supply.
I don't recommend buying new cars, but if you consider the above it's pretty much pollution-neutral.
All you're really doing is paying a premium in order to be the first in a long line of owners to drive that vehicle.
You appear to be making an unfounded assumption that regardless of how many owners it has, any given vehicle will remain on the road the exact same number of years.
If an owner decides to keep and maintain their car longer than they would have in the past, that car will stay out of the junkyard longer and therefore reduce the need to produce new cars. They will use some of the money they would have spent on a new car to keep the old one going longer, and still pocket the rest of it as savings.
If an owner decides to keep and maintain their car longer than they would have in the past, that car will stay out of the junkyard longer and therefore reduce the need to produce new cars. They will use some of the money they would have spent on a new car to keep the old one going longer, and still pocket the rest of it as savings.
I'm not, I'm assuming it'll average out.
It's no more likely on average that the current owner is an enthusiast that's extending the usable lifetime of the vehicle than the next owner.
It's no more likely on average that the current owner is an enthusiast that's extending the usable lifetime of the vehicle than the next owner.
Most households keep a fairly fixed number of vehicles. Selling more moderately used vehicles into the used car market will result in more old vehicles being retired sooner.
I like the idea that plug-in hybrids are the best choice. Battery supply is the limiting factor, so 100 plug-in hybrids that can do 50 miles of electric driving are overall better than 10 electrics that can do 500 miles.
Especially since basically 99% of drives are under 50 miles.
Especially since basically 99% of drives are under 50 miles.
Plug in hybrids would be the best choice if anyone actually plugged them in. Most PHEVs here in Norway are leased and exist only because they are cheaper than the petrol version. The leasing companies say that only a small fraction of them are ever charged.
That assumes that the used car market isn't a thing. Richer people (those who can afford new cars) keeping their cars as long as possible would definitely reduce overall demand for cars by killing the used car market, which I guess is also a good thing if you care about the environment (but in a harsh unintended consequence kind of way). Or perhaps new economy cars would become a thing again, kind of like the ones they drive around in China (or Japan). They aren't designed to last more than 4-6 years anyways.
The real impetus behind electric cars is vendor lock in and monitoring. It brings a clean slate to the currently robust repair market.
That's a minor reason. The major reason is profit margins. It costs a lot less to make an electric vehicle than an internal combustion vehicle because the drivetrain and control systems are so much simpler. Since Tesla made electric vehicles seem more "premium" that also set up the expectation to the buying public that electric cars should cost more. So an electric vehicle costs $9,000 to make compared to an internal combustion engine vehicle costing $14,000, but the EV sells for $60,000 while the ICE one sells for $46,000. That's also the reason why sedans, stationwagons, hatchbacks, coupes, and minivans are being phased out in favour of trucks, CUVs, and SUVs. Despite costing as much or less to manufacture, public perception allows the manufacturer to charge more.
That said, considering that most repairs are done to transmissions, fuel systems, and body panels (interior and exterior), cutting out everything but the body panels also cuts into the profits of dealership service centers. That's beginning to drive up the costs even more because the dealerships are padding the lot sales price with their markups to cover the loss that happens in the service department with EVs. People are starting to want a direct sales model like Tesla does, but that causes even more problems because direct sales cannot account for local market conditions or quick economic downturns the way dealerships can. Plus you get the problem of "When the hell am I getting my car back?" when it needs repairs or service because you have to ship your car off somewhere far away where they'll get to it as the backlog allows. A la Rivian and Tesla. Neither the customers or the manufacturers want a Rivian/Tesla repair center situation.
That said, considering that most repairs are done to transmissions, fuel systems, and body panels (interior and exterior), cutting out everything but the body panels also cuts into the profits of dealership service centers. That's beginning to drive up the costs even more because the dealerships are padding the lot sales price with their markups to cover the loss that happens in the service department with EVs. People are starting to want a direct sales model like Tesla does, but that causes even more problems because direct sales cannot account for local market conditions or quick economic downturns the way dealerships can. Plus you get the problem of "When the hell am I getting my car back?" when it needs repairs or service because you have to ship your car off somewhere far away where they'll get to it as the backlog allows. A la Rivian and Tesla. Neither the customers or the manufacturers want a Rivian/Tesla repair center situation.
> So an electric vehicle costs $9,000 to make compared to an internal combustion engine vehicle costing $14,000, but the EV sells for $60,000 while the ICE one sells for $46,000
Automotive gross margins don't seem to reflect those numbers. Tesla's are around 25%.
Automotive gross margins don't seem to reflect those numbers. Tesla's are around 25%.
I don't know how you ignored battery costs
Hilariously batteries, even being as expensive as they are, cost less per produced vehicle than an ICE drivetrain thanks to emissions and crash regulations. In the U.S. very single engine and transmission combination for a given vehicle has to be tested individually for both fields. That drives the cost of any new generation of a given car up considerably. Chrysler/FCA/Stellantis kept ancient LX cars alive with just facelifts because paying the penalties was cheaper than testing new vehicles. We don't get a lot of cheaper world brands like SEAT or Japanese kei cars because of that, too. We lost the Focus and Fiesta in North America because Ford foolishly spent that money on the cost-amortized EcoSport instead. The companies believe it's too expensive to "federalize" these cars, and so they just don't bother with them. Meanwhile Volkswagen rushed the id.Buzz right over the Atlantic the moment they finished it because they only had to test one configuration. Same with the Fiat 500E and the Toyota bZ4X. No EPA emissions testing and only a single NHTSA test round make those EVs so much cheaper than testing the twenty six of the Toyota RAV4 or the twelve of the Volkswagen Transporter.
But vendor lock in and monitoring is happening even on non-electric cars, and there's nothing inherent to electric vehicles that requires the lock in and remote monitoring compared to any modern ICE.
It truly sucks that they require a pound of flesh here, you can't have this nice thing without selling your soul. There is nothing that prevents them from respecting the user and allowing repair.
Greed? It's a pretty textbook case for regulation.
Greed is fine but ideally we would also have competition where one can vote with their wallet for a less connected old-school car.
Ideally I agree. The issue seems to be that barriers to entry are too high. There is so much regulatory capture in the automotive industry, everything is arrayed in favor of incumbents.
There are plenty of 50-60 mpg (uk) cars around that don’t even have Bluetooth.
You speak of new abominations, however grandfathering old abominations is just as bad for society. Could you at least make it not so loud?
> Could you at least make it not so loud?
My aftermarket exhaust is louder by design.
My aftermarket exhaust is louder by design.
Consider it a chav announcement.
Ah, some aircraft I know ran on Windows, including blue screens of death during flight. A switch Win 3.11 solved that.
There are trains still running on the German rail with their displays running Windows 95/98.
The embedded world in general is nuts. Unless absolutely necessary, nothing gets upgraded once a system works.
The embedded world in general is nuts. Unless absolutely necessary, nothing gets upgraded once a system works.
That sounds like the opposite of nuts. What would be nuts is to do a whole bunch of work to upgrade something that's already working for literally no reason at all.
The problem is, once you ossify, you can't upgrade for whatever reason or extend functionality because the build tools will get lost or won't run on modern stacks any more.
Or, say, some industrial machine - you might wish to allow network connectivity so that the vendor/service teams can get notified once a sensor detects signs of upcoming failure such as vibrations. But you can't connect it to your network, or have to take it off your network once the vendor's security support has passed, because otherwise you're just asking hackers to establish persistence on the system.
Or, say, some industrial machine - you might wish to allow network connectivity so that the vendor/service teams can get notified once a sensor detects signs of upcoming failure such as vibrations. But you can't connect it to your network, or have to take it off your network once the vendor's security support has passed, because otherwise you're just asking hackers to establish persistence on the system.
Seriously! It is crazy how many software products I use have gotten categorically worse over the years.
Why would that be nuts? It's not connected to the internet and it works. So why change it?
How about spare parts? Sure, IDE disk drives (aka the thing that fails the most often) can be replaced by CF cards, but if your software hasn't been touched in 20 years, good luck getting it to run on a "modern" embedded board. You'd have an easier time if you had invested into keeping the embedded OS, the build environment and the boards reasonably up-to-date.
There are two industries the are leading in obsolescense managememt: Aerospace and railways. But yes, this is a seriousbissue if service love of your product is measured in multiple decades.
At least in Europe, railways got the hint (or rather, the EU forced their hand)... they are switching over to ETCS and digital signalling control based on standardised interfaces. Will take a few decades to fully roll out, though.
Hence obsolescence management to litterally keep the trains running, sometimes even on time. And no, regardless of what smart phones do, you do not update a running, and certified, piece of equipment with a real technical need to do so. One of the reasons rail, and air, travel are as safe as they are.
And it is not just signaling, it is rail car and engine systeks as well, down to the last mechanical and electronic component.
And it is not just signaling, it is rail car and engine systeks as well, down to the last mechanical and electronic component.
> It's not connected to the internet
It tend to be actually a false.
It tend to be actually a false.
What happens if you just put a piece of cardboard over the screen and never take it off? Are there also audible warnings? Does it cover necessary indicators such as speed or fuel tank?
Edit: Oh, the reversing camera - I guess that’s pretty useful.
Edit: Oh, the reversing camera - I guess that’s pretty useful.
My Honda software is definitely not the pinnacle of UX design, but at least they got that part right. You can't even view the popup when the car is moving. If you pull it up when you're stopped and then start moving, it goes away and is replaced with a warning about trying to read while driving.
I'm religious about never, ever interrupting the user. It's unfortunate that way too many other software developers consider it acceptable. No, I don't care about your updates and onboarding and ToS changes, I opened your app with one concrete goal in mind and you're getting in my f***ing way. You aren't being helpful a tiniest bit.
If you need to inform the user about something, put a banner at the top of the screen. Or show an icon with a badge on it. Anything that doesn't require immediate attention and a context switch. Trust me, none of your stuff is so critical that the user needs to be interrupted.
If you need to inform the user about something, put a banner at the top of the screen. Or show an icon with a badge on it. Anything that doesn't require immediate attention and a context switch. Trust me, none of your stuff is so critical that the user needs to be interrupted.
This reminds me of when Signal messenger locked users out of their chats until they set a device PIN several years(?) ago. The fact that people may have been in the middle of important conversations was apparently not a concern.
While hilarious, it is quite legit: the display popup is shown at is a "media" display and doesn't directly affect driving (except navigation, which used to be optional).
Another reason to take the bus
At least it wasn't an ad!
A bit off-topic, but I love it how meaningful conversations are moving to Mastodon and other Twitter alternatives now.
I'm always surprised we don't see more car console "Blue Screens" reported. Weird reboots mid-drive and such.
About once every 4-5 weeks my car beeps at me whilst driving along admonishing me to say that I shouldn't be putting it in P/N while driving. Obviously, I've done no such thing. Each time about a second later, it realises its mistake and cancels the message, but it's still enough to make you take your eyes off the road to look at its stupid message.
Apparently, it's a faulty sensor on the gear lever, but it seems crazy it seems to have one sensor to detect P/N for this message and another one to actually disengage the gears for parking / neutral.
Apparently, it's a faulty sensor on the gear lever, but it seems crazy it seems to have one sensor to detect P/N for this message and another one to actually disengage the gears for parking / neutral.
Infamously, some Mazda infotainment systems crashed when a Seattle area radio station left off a file extension in a metadata broadcast https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/10/mazda_radios_images/
In my car the UI just freezes until the headunit restarts 1-2 minutes later.
A few years ago I rode with a friend and he'd have to turn ignition off and on again to restart the headunit. That's rather annoying while cruising on the highway. The madman still did it - a bit dangerous because you lose power steering and the brake booster without the engine running.
A few years ago I rode with a friend and he'd have to turn ignition off and on again to restart the headunit. That's rather annoying while cruising on the highway. The madman still did it - a bit dangerous because you lose power steering and the brake booster without the engine running.
And while the ignition is off, the wheel locks in place at a specific angle as an anti-theft measure. Terrifies me to think about.
At least there's one positive thing: they've got "Yes" on the left. :)
Feature Team A is working on New Functionality 1, Feature Team B is working on New Functionality 2, but no Feature Team wants to be responsible for all these weird interactions like pop-ups. That doesn't get you promoted.
Stop leasing new cars.
The "car" is a Hyundai.
I cannot believe the amount of screens that have been allowed into cars. Touchscreens that beckon not only for your attention, but also your interaction are somehow fine to just put wherever in the car. It's illegal to use my phone for non hands-free calls while driving (technically, but it's not even remotely enforced) but it's okay to use my television-sized device connected to my phone because it's integrated into my dashboard? Y'know maybe we should just get rid of the windows (windows are very 17th century) in cars and replace them with cameras and touchscreens? Imagine being able to both see the road AND quickly sketch out an idea with a co-worker on the windshield during your commute!
> Imagine being able to both see the road AND quickly sketch out an idea with a co-worker on the windshield during your commute
This is quite a disingenuous take on the screens in a car though. They usually only allow limited interactions while the vehicle is in motion, so that example of sketching out an idea with a coworker already isn't supposed to be happening with the current systems while the vehicle is in motion.
My passenger can't type something while the vehicle is moving, and if they scroll through lists too fast it'll go into a timeout mode for a few seconds because it assumes the driver is paying too much attention to the screen. Coupled with driver attention tracking systems on current Euro cars (and it sounds like future US cars as well) it can really enforce that a driver doesn't pay too much attention directly to the screen or other things in the car.
This is quite a disingenuous take on the screens in a car though. They usually only allow limited interactions while the vehicle is in motion, so that example of sketching out an idea with a coworker already isn't supposed to be happening with the current systems while the vehicle is in motion.
My passenger can't type something while the vehicle is moving, and if they scroll through lists too fast it'll go into a timeout mode for a few seconds because it assumes the driver is paying too much attention to the screen. Coupled with driver attention tracking systems on current Euro cars (and it sounds like future US cars as well) it can really enforce that a driver doesn't pay too much attention directly to the screen or other things in the car.
Is it disingenuous? I'd say perhaps hyperbolic or satirical. I remember a time when cars came with DVD players that wouldn't play if the car wasn't in park. People didn't like that so they worked around it. The lockout systems that you describe sound like the impetus for a market of bypasses. I would argue that if such restrictions are necessary then we should reconsider if the screen which necessitates them is necessary.
We seem hard-pressed to consolidate all of a car's functionality into a touch screen, but the UX is often much worse than a physical input whose position never changes and can be felt with your fingers in the dark or in situations where you cannot look at it. This consolidation also seems like it creates a single point of failure: what happens if your screen breaks?
It all seems like tech for tech's sake, things to justify charging more and more for new vehicles while providing manufacturers with a means of pushing updates, displaying ads, and selling services to extract more incremental value from consumers.
I'd like to see a car w/ a screen for a map. That's it. You input your destination on your phone, it shows the map on the screen. The screen is for display only and it's decoupled from all other controls in the car.
We seem hard-pressed to consolidate all of a car's functionality into a touch screen, but the UX is often much worse than a physical input whose position never changes and can be felt with your fingers in the dark or in situations where you cannot look at it. This consolidation also seems like it creates a single point of failure: what happens if your screen breaks?
It all seems like tech for tech's sake, things to justify charging more and more for new vehicles while providing manufacturers with a means of pushing updates, displaying ads, and selling services to extract more incremental value from consumers.
I'd like to see a car w/ a screen for a map. That's it. You input your destination on your phone, it shows the map on the screen. The screen is for display only and it's decoupled from all other controls in the car.
> The lockout systems that you describe sound like the impetus for a market of bypasses.
If we're talking about modifying and buying 3rd party changes then the car not even having a screen from the factory is within the same world of people making changes are bad with excessive touchscreen interaction while moving. We're no longer talking about whatever the OEMs are shipping.
If we're talking about modifying and buying 3rd party changes then the car not even having a screen from the factory is within the same world of people making changes are bad with excessive touchscreen interaction while moving. We're no longer talking about whatever the OEMs are shipping.
I get your point, but I think it does create a lower bar to clear than if there were no screens at all. A software flash is quick, easy, and cheap compared to installing and integrating your own custom equipment. More people will pay $500 to unlock / replace their head units than would pay $5000 to have their screen-less car retrofit with one.
How much does it cost to just suction cup a used iPad on to the dashboard? Or buy some double DIN Android-based head unit that fits in a 90's era car that'll play Netflix while on the road? Less than your $500 example?
If people are going to abuse it, they're going to abuse it. The car shipping with no screen might be even easier to abuse than one with everything in the car being routed through it.
On my old 2000 Accord replacing the headunit with one with a screen running regular Android was <$500, and it didn't have to mess with the AC system. Replacing the system on my Mach E? It'll be a custom job, probably incredibly expensive, and will most definitely hurt the resale value. There's no shops out there advertising "$500 to flash Android on your Mach E!" despite being on the market for a few years. I'd sooner have your example of swiping around on a presentation on my 2000 Accord than I would on my Mach E, despite the Mach E coming with a big screen.
And this isn't limited to just EVs. My >5yr old Hyundai ICE also has a touch screen. Even though it has a lot of buttons, its hard to know what those buttons are doing without the screen and stock OS on it. Sure there's buttons to turn the temp up and down, but you don't actually know what you set it to except for the screen. There's no notification to what air vents are open except on the screen despite there being a button to change modes. Then there's a number of other settings and features to the car that are largely only configurable on the screen (while stopped). All of that goes away if you swap out the head unit on the car or end up flashing a custom Android build on it instead of whatever highly modified version Hyundai put on it.
Once again, if you're opening it up to people doing whatever modifications to it to be these distraction boxes with a budget of $500, then I guess a 1984 MR2 Spyder or a 1993 Ford Ranger or a 2000 Honda Accord also come into the fray as cars which could be modified to allow for distractions like your example.
If people are going to abuse it, they're going to abuse it. The car shipping with no screen might be even easier to abuse than one with everything in the car being routed through it.
On my old 2000 Accord replacing the headunit with one with a screen running regular Android was <$500, and it didn't have to mess with the AC system. Replacing the system on my Mach E? It'll be a custom job, probably incredibly expensive, and will most definitely hurt the resale value. There's no shops out there advertising "$500 to flash Android on your Mach E!" despite being on the market for a few years. I'd sooner have your example of swiping around on a presentation on my 2000 Accord than I would on my Mach E, despite the Mach E coming with a big screen.
And this isn't limited to just EVs. My >5yr old Hyundai ICE also has a touch screen. Even though it has a lot of buttons, its hard to know what those buttons are doing without the screen and stock OS on it. Sure there's buttons to turn the temp up and down, but you don't actually know what you set it to except for the screen. There's no notification to what air vents are open except on the screen despite there being a button to change modes. Then there's a number of other settings and features to the car that are largely only configurable on the screen (while stopped). All of that goes away if you swap out the head unit on the car or end up flashing a custom Android build on it instead of whatever highly modified version Hyundai put on it.
Once again, if you're opening it up to people doing whatever modifications to it to be these distraction boxes with a budget of $500, then I guess a 1984 MR2 Spyder or a 1993 Ford Ranger or a 2000 Honda Accord also come into the fray as cars which could be modified to allow for distractions like your example.
I have an aftermarket head unit like you describe, but I wouldn't have installed it if my car didn't already have a space for it in the dash and a whole harness wired and ready to connect. I leave it off unless I need to pull up a map.
Your point about being unable to use the features of your car if you replace the factory unit makes sense, but is that type of lock-in a good thing? Again, what if your screen breaks and now you don't know what your AC is set to? What else can't you operate in your car without the screen?
The existence of a screen conditions people to expect and depend on a screen. The manufacturer increasingly requires you to use it to operate the vehicle. There may not be shops advertising flashes yet, but I expect they'll come; that or legislation that prevents anyone from tampering with them.
You could make laws to discourage people from attaching devices to their dashboards and interacting with them, but it gets murky when all the cars come from the factory with a device already in the dashboard that you have no choice but to interact with.
Your point about being unable to use the features of your car if you replace the factory unit makes sense, but is that type of lock-in a good thing? Again, what if your screen breaks and now you don't know what your AC is set to? What else can't you operate in your car without the screen?
The existence of a screen conditions people to expect and depend on a screen. The manufacturer increasingly requires you to use it to operate the vehicle. There may not be shops advertising flashes yet, but I expect they'll come; that or legislation that prevents anyone from tampering with them.
You could make laws to discourage people from attaching devices to their dashboards and interacting with them, but it gets murky when all the cars come from the factory with a device already in the dashboard that you have no choice but to interact with.
> There may not be shops advertising flashes yet, but I expect they'll come
It's been over a decade since the first car that I bought new which had a touchscreen, and it wasn't a pricey high end car. When is this market going to come?
I do think it's not necessarily a good thing for all the stuff to be routed through the screen. I do agree there should be some amount of things operated by physical buttons and switches like gear selectors and turn signals and wipers and what not. But between my car with a ton of buttons and a tiny screen and my car with few buttons and a large screen, I'll take the one with the large screen every time.
The one with lots of buttons has a small screen, making it harder to put in an address or using it while stopped. It's harder to fully understand the navigation at a quick glance on the smaller screen. The vast majority of buttons are practically worthless wastes of space 90% of the time and really shouldn't be used while driving anyways.
> wouldn't have installed it if my car didn't already have a space for it in the dash
Well, there's not a spot to install one in either of my cars with screens in them, but all the cars which didn't have them were easily upgraded to have them. So once again it's easier today to play videogames while driving in my 2000 Accord than my Mach E on something "built-in" to the dash.
This is why I say your point is disingenuous. In a 1993 Ranger, today, I can spend $500 and do your distraction filled example. It would cost me many thousands to do it on either of my touchscreen cars, requiring massive, invasive modifications. This is true of every car I've owned which didn't have a touchscreen from the factory and every car with a touchscreen from the factory, for well over a decade.
It's been over a decade since the first car that I bought new which had a touchscreen, and it wasn't a pricey high end car. When is this market going to come?
I do think it's not necessarily a good thing for all the stuff to be routed through the screen. I do agree there should be some amount of things operated by physical buttons and switches like gear selectors and turn signals and wipers and what not. But between my car with a ton of buttons and a tiny screen and my car with few buttons and a large screen, I'll take the one with the large screen every time.
The one with lots of buttons has a small screen, making it harder to put in an address or using it while stopped. It's harder to fully understand the navigation at a quick glance on the smaller screen. The vast majority of buttons are practically worthless wastes of space 90% of the time and really shouldn't be used while driving anyways.
> wouldn't have installed it if my car didn't already have a space for it in the dash
Well, there's not a spot to install one in either of my cars with screens in them, but all the cars which didn't have them were easily upgraded to have them. So once again it's easier today to play videogames while driving in my 2000 Accord than my Mach E on something "built-in" to the dash.
This is why I say your point is disingenuous. In a 1993 Ranger, today, I can spend $500 and do your distraction filled example. It would cost me many thousands to do it on either of my touchscreen cars, requiring massive, invasive modifications. This is true of every car I've owned which didn't have a touchscreen from the factory and every car with a touchscreen from the factory, for well over a decade.
> When is this market going to come?
Maybe once enough people get stuck with a head unit they don't like, but can't change without a lot of cost because it's vital to the operation of the car. I do expect this to be a relatively small market, but who knows? I have an ECU and a TCU flash, they're performance modifications, but they do also modify the output on the small stock screen in the middle of my gauge cluster. I think the average consumer is more likely to buy a mod for their head unit than their engine, but whether enough people care for someone to make the mods is yet to be seen.
> In a 1993 Ranger, today, I can spend $500 and do your distraction filled example. It would cost me many thousands to do it on either of my touchscreen cars, requiring massive, invasive modifications.
The way I see it you could spend $500 and add a screen to any car, but if your car already contains screens then now you have n + 1 screens (where at least some of those n are necessary).
It's not really about whether you choose to integrate the screen into the dash (or anywhere else) or not, it's that the manufacturer already decided to do it for you. They started you off with n screens, they made you use them. If anything becomes possible, easier, faster, etc. to do on another device then you arrive at n + 1 screens. You can't control what people do, but you can start them with 0 necessary screens.
> The one with lots of buttons has a small screen, making it harder to put in an address or using it while stopped. It's harder to fully understand the navigation at a quick glance on the smaller screen.
Totally agree, gimme big map. That's why I changed my head unit; so I could stop using my phone for navigation. I'm not against big-ish "dedicated" map monitors, but I don't want them to become necessary for operating anything outside of the map and playing audio. I genuinely don't think they're better suited to driving related tasks than conventional gauges and controls.
Maybe once enough people get stuck with a head unit they don't like, but can't change without a lot of cost because it's vital to the operation of the car. I do expect this to be a relatively small market, but who knows? I have an ECU and a TCU flash, they're performance modifications, but they do also modify the output on the small stock screen in the middle of my gauge cluster. I think the average consumer is more likely to buy a mod for their head unit than their engine, but whether enough people care for someone to make the mods is yet to be seen.
> In a 1993 Ranger, today, I can spend $500 and do your distraction filled example. It would cost me many thousands to do it on either of my touchscreen cars, requiring massive, invasive modifications.
The way I see it you could spend $500 and add a screen to any car, but if your car already contains screens then now you have n + 1 screens (where at least some of those n are necessary).
It's not really about whether you choose to integrate the screen into the dash (or anywhere else) or not, it's that the manufacturer already decided to do it for you. They started you off with n screens, they made you use them. If anything becomes possible, easier, faster, etc. to do on another device then you arrive at n + 1 screens. You can't control what people do, but you can start them with 0 necessary screens.
> The one with lots of buttons has a small screen, making it harder to put in an address or using it while stopped. It's harder to fully understand the navigation at a quick glance on the smaller screen.
Totally agree, gimme big map. That's why I changed my head unit; so I could stop using my phone for navigation. I'm not against big-ish "dedicated" map monitors, but I don't want them to become necessary for operating anything outside of the map and playing audio. I genuinely don't think they're better suited to driving related tasks than conventional gauges and controls.
> If anything becomes possible, easier, faster, etc. to do on another device then you arrive at n + 1 screens
That's kind of the whole point of Android Auto/Carplay. New software feature out there? It's there. Things too slow for the features you want? New phone, faster CPU/GPU, new network connectivity, etc.
Even though my Hyundai is >5 years old it's running apps that were last updated yesterday. It's had a few UI changes, mostly for the better. It didn't take a new screen.
That's kind of the whole point of Android Auto/Carplay. New software feature out there? It's there. Things too slow for the features you want? New phone, faster CPU/GPU, new network connectivity, etc.
Even though my Hyundai is >5 years old it's running apps that were last updated yesterday. It's had a few UI changes, mostly for the better. It didn't take a new screen.
Such messages never appear in my Tesla S while I am driving. They only appear when the car has the parking brake applied. The only messages that appear while driving are relevant for me and appear in well defined locations, they do not obscure the rest of the screen.
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The page struggled to load but I eventually succeeded. Here is a summary:
This poster owns a recent model Hyundai car that popped up a notice about changes to their terms and conditions in the privacy policy. The car presents this pop up while the car is in drive and moving at speed, not when it is stopped/parked.
This poster owns a recent model Hyundai car that popped up a notice about changes to their terms and conditions in the privacy policy. The car presents this pop up while the car is in drive and moving at speed, not when it is stopped/parked.
If that affects a driver in the United States, that behavior — if reported properly to NHTSA — would likely result in Hyundai being forced to recall and update all vehicles to revise whatever code permitted that popup to be issued while the vehicle was in gear and in motion.
If anyone does see this and wants to report their own vehicle’s safety issue, I expect they’d listen and be interested, even if non-US: https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem
If anyone does see this and wants to report their own vehicle’s safety issue, I expect they’d listen and be interested, even if non-US: https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem
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Ads in disguise.
I’m afraid I don’t follow. Do you mean the pop-up is equivalent to an ad for Hyundai?
Kind of. Same for companies that send "we've updated this or that" emails. Spam that pretends it is not spam, attention thieves.
Just as the drone starts to drift towards me, several notifications pop up within the app/iOS preventing control and sending me into a panic.
Drone hits the house shredding a few blades, starts to careen and then before it hits me, a brave family member grabs the landing strut and keeps it in a death grip until I can dismiss the warnings and "land".