H-1B Visa Program Changes Aimed at Stopping Applicants from Gaming Lottery(wsj.com)
wsj.com
H-1B Visa Program Changes Aimed at Stopping Applicants from Gaming Lottery
https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/h-1b-visa-program-changes-aimed-at-stopping-applicants-from-gaming-lottery-3b962fb3
101 comments
The change i would like to see is an auction system for work visas. If this is for extraordinary talent, the auctioning it by salary should make it more fair. If someone is offered a $500k/year job and another $50k/year the $500k year job is the more in demand.
If you want to only import investment bankers, quants, HFTs, lawyers and business executives then sure. People who fill critical gaps and add the most value to an economy are rarely the ones who are paid the highest salaries for it.
What instead needs to happen is that visa officials need to be trained to understand the meaning of terms like "speciality occupation", "highly specialized knowledge", "extraordinary skill" and "lack of qualified applicants". This would automatically filter out the hundreds of thousands of H-1B applications put in by companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS and Wipro every year. I'm willing to bet we wouldn't even need a visa lottery if applications were just required to meet the minimum bar that the law already prescribes.
What instead needs to happen is that visa officials need to be trained to understand the meaning of terms like "speciality occupation", "highly specialized knowledge", "extraordinary skill" and "lack of qualified applicants". This would automatically filter out the hundreds of thousands of H-1B applications put in by companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS and Wipro every year. I'm willing to bet we wouldn't even need a visa lottery if applications were just required to meet the minimum bar that the law already prescribes.
O-1 visas are for extraordinary talent. H-1B is for ordinary people with some education or work experience, and supposedly only in situations where such talent is in short supply in the US. What is missing is the middle category: a visa based on objective criteria that lets people work in the US, if their accomplishments are sufficient that it's reasonable to assume that their presence would be beneficial to the country.
It's tricky. In reality, an O1 can be extremely hard to get in tech.
All tech O1s that I know of are PhDs and many PhDs have been denied O1 because they worked in an applied role, in industry or immigration officials woke up on the wrong side of bed. On the other hand, even the most mundane TV actor will get an O1 without much issue.
A PhD exists for a certain kind of person, and can feel like mind killer to many others...that sentiment is not new in tech. Mining papers and patents until you're O1 worthy is not impossible. It just feels like a useless detour to life, that you'd take only so you could get an O1. As someone with a couple of tier 1 papers and a decent amount of industry work, the best research is never allowed to be published.
All tech O1s that I know of are PhDs and many PhDs have been denied O1 because they worked in an applied role, in industry or immigration officials woke up on the wrong side of bed. On the other hand, even the most mundane TV actor will get an O1 without much issue.
A PhD exists for a certain kind of person, and can feel like mind killer to many others...that sentiment is not new in tech. Mining papers and patents until you're O1 worthy is not impossible. It just feels like a useless detour to life, that you'd take only so you could get an O1. As someone with a couple of tier 1 papers and a decent amount of industry work, the best research is never allowed to be published.
O-1 can be difficult to get as a corporate employee, because the criteria are about extraordinary ability rather than career success. You have to show that you are more than the sum of your experiences. That you have individual achievements beyond what can be reasonably expected from a successful professional. That's obviously easier in fields based on building an individual brand. On the other hand, if your best works are somebody else's trade secrets, can you really demonstrate that you are exceptional?
That idea is covered in the bottom of the article.
The problem is that it also biases towards much more senior roles.
One scenario we generally want to handle is: a person comes to the US, gets an advanced degree in a high-demand field at a US university... and then is immediately kicked back to their country of origin. H1Bs can help that person stay here and put down roots. But a fresh college grad is never going to be able to compete in a salary-based auction like you're describing, so pretty much all young, ambitious, well-educated people will get the boot.
The problem is that it also biases towards much more senior roles.
One scenario we generally want to handle is: a person comes to the US, gets an advanced degree in a high-demand field at a US university... and then is immediately kicked back to their country of origin. H1Bs can help that person stay here and put down roots. But a fresh college grad is never going to be able to compete in a salary-based auction like you're describing, so pretty much all young, ambitious, well-educated people will get the boot.
Companies might be forced to hire Americans for junior software engineering positions instead of claiming they “can’t find any” qualified applicants.
Fine print: qualified applicant must be willing to work at lower salaries and than their experience would otherwise demand on the open market.
Fine print: qualified applicant must be willing to work at lower salaries and than their experience would otherwise demand on the open market.
They will just setup offices in Canada instead and hire the exact same people like it already been happening a lot since the last administration. US's economy will lose out because tech workers earn and spend a lot.
They could try, but Canada’s talent pool is a lot smaller than the U.S.
Canada has very liberal immigration policies for tech workers compared to the US, so the same folks that arrive on H1B to the US go to Canada instead from their home countries and are hired there by US companies. No super long green card queue, and citizenship only takes 3 years after getting a green card instead of 5. Microsoft started a large Vancouver office right across the border. For team cohesion in large teams they're more likely to hire additional folks there rather than in the US. The time zones are the same as the US.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work...
https://www.businessinsider.com/h-1b-visa-rejects-moving-to-...
That'd be turbocharged if there's actual H1B restrictions or bans.
Canada even started a program recently that directly targets H1B workers being pushed out of the US and it was oversubscribed very soon.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2023/07/02/canad...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-20/h-1b-work...
https://www.businessinsider.com/h-1b-visa-rejects-moving-to-...
That'd be turbocharged if there's actual H1B restrictions or bans.
Canada even started a program recently that directly targets H1B workers being pushed out of the US and it was oversubscribed very soon.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2023/07/02/canad...
This won’t work.
1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc).
2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance.
What we need is a way to avoid abuse by body shops.
2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance.
What we need is a way to avoid abuse by body shops.
Of course this will work. We want the people who do the jobs that have the most impact on the economy.
> 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc).
Why!? If those people are important they can be paid well too. There are plenty of chemical engineers that make good money.
> 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance.
Startups can pay too. In any case, most startups don't sponsor H1Bs because of the uncertainty associated with the process.
> 1/ this will incentive IT and software jobs and marginalize other fields with lower pay (physics, mechanical, chemical, etc).
Why!? If those people are important they can be paid well too. There are plenty of chemical engineers that make good money.
> 2/ this would mean only bigger software companies would get a chance and people would willing to work in startups will stand lower chance.
Startups can pay too. In any case, most startups don't sponsor H1Bs because of the uncertainty associated with the process.
Do those chemical engineers make the same amount of money as a software dev with the same amount of experience? A fresh ChemE grad would be lucky to land a 120K job as a process engineer. Very lucky. An entry software job is 150K. Does this mean the a CS grad is on average more impactful to the economy than a chemical engineer?
Not all industries can pay as much as software. A PhD with an extra 5-10 years of industrial experience may get a 200K salary in biotech, often less. A CS bachelor with 1-2 years of experience would get that 200K. Pay doesn't always equal the value of your contribution, especially if you compare them across different fields.
Not all industries can pay as much as software. A PhD with an extra 5-10 years of industrial experience may get a 200K salary in biotech, often less. A CS bachelor with 1-2 years of experience would get that 200K. Pay doesn't always equal the value of your contribution, especially if you compare them across different fields.
Your first point is great. But I don't think the second one is relevant.
The government shouldn't fight for lower paying jobs at the expense of higher paying ones. There are a limited number of visas granted each year, and higher pay is a signal from the market that a particular position is _actually_ more difficult to fill. If startups can't afford top talent, then surely they can hire American workers instead?
The government shouldn't fight for lower paying jobs at the expense of higher paying ones. There are a limited number of visas granted each year, and higher pay is a signal from the market that a particular position is _actually_ more difficult to fill. If startups can't afford top talent, then surely they can hire American workers instead?
Other fields can get an O-1 Visa to get extraordinary talent. H1B is the bottom rung and should have a floor set by marketing conditions. Body(Tata, etc) shops aren't the only ones abusing it.
Why are either of those things a problem? Why do we need to spread H1Bs between industries? Why do small companies who pay less deserve cheap foreign labor over large companies who pay more?
Because software isn't the only industry critical to an economy, others are too. You can argue that pay=value to the economy but in practice, you can't equalize value and pay across all industries. Here is an extreme example: no matter how good a high school teacher is at teaching and innovative classroom management, no school would pay them 300K a year to teach because the average salary for this role is 60k. A more realistic example is a biotech PhD scientist with years of experience and proven impact in pharmaceutical industry. You would be hard pressed to find a company willing to pay this scientist 300K a year (avg salary for principal reseach scientist in SF is 200K).
Value and pay aren't the same across industries. Someone can still contribute the same value but the field they are in simply doesn't have the economic profitability required to pay them the same way software does. In fact, software is the anomaly in compensation. Making a policy that benefits only one type of industry over everything else is simply bad policy.
Value and pay aren't the same across industries. Someone can still contribute the same value but the field they are in simply doesn't have the economic profitability required to pay them the same way software does. In fact, software is the anomaly in compensation. Making a policy that benefits only one type of industry over everything else is simply bad policy.
It's not though, it's for "specialized" talent. O-1 visas are for people with extraordinary talent.
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-spec...
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
Originally H1Bs required $60k/year salary, which was in 1990 and indexed to inflation would be $140k. I don't think there's any need at all for a bidding process, the minimum salary just needs to be raised to $140k and indexed to inflation. (As it should have been to begin with.)
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-spec...
https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...
Originally H1Bs required $60k/year salary, which was in 1990 and indexed to inflation would be $140k. I don't think there's any need at all for a bidding process, the minimum salary just needs to be raised to $140k and indexed to inflation. (As it should have been to begin with.)
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In that case, I would think the company should also show that an equivalent job is offered to non-visa worker with a similar pay. Without that, such rule would not be sustainable.
That's already supposed to be the case, but the problem is that it is ridiculously easy to abuse as companies will just do stuff like low-balling salaries and putting really specific requirements on the job posting. Instead, we really need to be giving visas to *people* and not *corporations* since this whole program is predicated on the idea that certain industries have shortages of skilled workers.
The gaming of H-1 visas affects other sectors than senior devs in tech!
I was on the board of a school that teaches in a foreign language. We used to recruit teachers from countries where that language is used, because we followed a foreign curriculum too.
Teachers look for new jobs in April/May to start in August. We used to get them H-1s. But once the H-1s were exhausted in October it became impossible to bring teachers over.
I was on the board of a school that teaches in a foreign language. We used to recruit teachers from countries where that language is used, because we followed a foreign curriculum too.
Teachers look for new jobs in April/May to start in August. We used to get them H-1s. But once the H-1s were exhausted in October it became impossible to bring teachers over.
Many doctors in rural areas are H1Bs. They do not make 500k per year. It would be a genuine loss to us if we couldn’t attract and keep them because of changes to the system. It must be noted that many hospital systems are nonprofit and likely not subject to H1 caps though. It would be nice to hear from a doctor on this topic.
Many doctors are stuck in decades long green card wait and subject to the whims of USCIS.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct...
Many emigrating doctors are choosing to go to Canada instead to avoid this nonsense.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct...
Many emigrating doctors are choosing to go to Canada instead to avoid this nonsense.
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Yes, and increase the number of visas by 10x
it's crazy that US puts the best and brightest immigrants through lots of hell, when other immigrants can just walk through the southern border of America, or fly into US and just stay and setup a decent and quiet life and, don't have to deal with the hoops of proper immigration
And for that matter, that applies to immigrants to Italy, Canada, England, etc etc
And for that matter, that applies to immigrants to Italy, Canada, England, etc etc
You can walk through as well, or rather drive. Just have to plan ahead and have a plausible asylum story. After the war with Ukraine started there was a wave of Russians coming in through the South border. They fly to Mexico or other nearby country, buy a used car with California plates and pretend to be Americans while in line. As soon as they get a over the border to the checkpoint they say “we request political asylum”. Them they get detained for some time and released into the US. There is a whole network of “helpers” who get paid to organize all of it.
Are H-1Bs the "best and brightest"? Or just for companies willing to game the system to get qualified candidates they can treat like garbage?
As far as I know, the system usually relies on essentially phony job postings made specifically not to get filled (despite, in general, plenty of perfectly qualified applicants who'd otherwise apply). Then, the employees are sort of tied to the employer and can be made to work long hours for substandard pay. Nowhere in the process seems to select for "the best and brightest" as far as I understand.
As far as I know, the system usually relies on essentially phony job postings made specifically not to get filled (despite, in general, plenty of perfectly qualified applicants who'd otherwise apply). Then, the employees are sort of tied to the employer and can be made to work long hours for substandard pay. Nowhere in the process seems to select for "the best and brightest" as far as I understand.
> As far as I know, the system usually relies on essentially phony job postings made specifically not to get filled (despite, in general, plenty of perfectly qualified applicants who'd otherwise apply)
You're confusing green card applications and H1B, as has been tradition on tech forums since decades.
You're confusing green card applications and H1B, as has been tradition on tech forums since decades.
Other than premier pure researchers and university professors, every immigrant programmer I know came here on an H1b. This includes the brightest and best programmers I know.
I grew up in Miami and met a great many nice people who came to the US on a boat from Cuba. But the process of coming on a boat does not in any way select for nice people.
The H1b program does have some method of selecting for qualification (i.e., you must have a bachelor's degree) but no method of selecting for the "best and brightest." The fact that some of the best and brightest may come in that way is true but irrelevant if the process itself doesn't select for it at all.
The H1b program does have some method of selecting for qualification (i.e., you must have a bachelor's degree) but no method of selecting for the "best and brightest." The fact that some of the best and brightest may come in that way is true but irrelevant if the process itself doesn't select for it at all.
Oh for sure. The H1B process is completely broken and in dire need of revision.
I was talking about how the O-1 is not a sufficient or even ideal visa for extraordinary STEM practitioners. It only selects for a sliver of the overall extraordinary talent pool.
I was talking about how the O-1 is not a sufficient or even ideal visa for extraordinary STEM practitioners. It only selects for a sliver of the overall extraordinary talent pool.
I think you’re underestimating the agony of a overland trek through Central America…
I was on an H-1B for 10 years. Please don't minimize the ordeals unauthorized immigrants have to go through.
https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-ris...
https://www.cfr.org/article/crossing-darien-gap-migrants-ris...
We really need a points based and much simpler system in the US
It turns out doing things the "correct" way is harder than just not doing that.
The H1B system isn't about getting bright minds into the US, it's about filling gaps in US worker skills. It's not meant to benefit immigrants, but US companies.
What it is actually about is cheaper labor. Without H1-B companies would have to compete more for talent and invest in more education and promote their in demand careers to young Americans.
I would much rather see FAANG invest in opportunities for inner city and poor rural high schools… programs to support bringing up people already in this country. Rather than siphoning off the best and most ambitious people from poor countries who need those people’s talents.
I can’t blame anyone for chasing the best opportunities for themselves and their families though.
I do not like how H1-B alters the game and who loses as a result.
I would much rather see FAANG invest in opportunities for inner city and poor rural high schools… programs to support bringing up people already in this country. Rather than siphoning off the best and most ambitious people from poor countries who need those people’s talents.
I can’t blame anyone for chasing the best opportunities for themselves and their families though.
I do not like how H1-B alters the game and who loses as a result.
The article is mostly about the lottery, which is really anybody who submits an application. Not necessarily the best and brightest.
Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing?
How come the government can know better than the companies who should they employ?
Is there a risk of Apple employing an Afghan shepherd as a product manager if there wasn’t a visa requirement?
If it is about creating artificial scarcity to rig the job market, I’m not sure it works for the employees since the work visas are tied to a job so as a result you end up with employees who can’t stand against their employers of fear getting deported.
IMHO, the visa reform should be abolishing the visa regime. Just security checks.
Why not have a meritocratic job? And no, nationality is a skill.
Very unpopular opinion - I know but just can’t get an explanation on why everyone loves visas so much. Why do you love being limited with your options and controlled by the bureaucracy.
How come the government can know better than the companies who should they employ?
Is there a risk of Apple employing an Afghan shepherd as a product manager if there wasn’t a visa requirement?
If it is about creating artificial scarcity to rig the job market, I’m not sure it works for the employees since the work visas are tied to a job so as a result you end up with employees who can’t stand against their employers of fear getting deported.
IMHO, the visa reform should be abolishing the visa regime. Just security checks.
Why not have a meritocratic job? And no, nationality is a skill.
Very unpopular opinion - I know but just can’t get an explanation on why everyone loves visas so much. Why do you love being limited with your options and controlled by the bureaucracy.
Your domestic workforce would rapidly be replaced with cheaper alternatives.
Sounds like a free market to me. Maybe everyone should be paid fairly. If you can be replaced by a third world country immigrant, you should be. You should have acquired enough skills in your prosperous country.
There isn't such thing a global "free market". Other than that, you've accurately described why there are sharp political divides about globalization manifesting in many nations today.
There isn’t, but there should be. Not very long time ago there was. The visa regime is something very new.
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A country's registered voters vote to support policies that aid their employment prospects.
That doesn't seem so difficult to understand the motivation.
That doesn't seem so difficult to understand the motivation.
So they just choose to rig the market by limiting the supply?
I find this motivation, misguided. The more people work, the more prosperous the place is. You can’t just limit the number of workers and create prosperity because you’re paid in something that you can’t use directly.
Do you think that you can limit the number of workers to 10% of population and get incredibly high salaries, and just tax them so high and distribute the money to the unemployed? If you can do that, then you will have a bohemian society where everyone is having a great time or being paid amazingly. However, you can’t have that your society needs to produce as much as consumes.
I find this motivation, misguided. The more people work, the more prosperous the place is. You can’t just limit the number of workers and create prosperity because you’re paid in something that you can’t use directly.
Do you think that you can limit the number of workers to 10% of population and get incredibly high salaries, and just tax them so high and distribute the money to the unemployed? If you can do that, then you will have a bohemian society where everyone is having a great time or being paid amazingly. However, you can’t have that your society needs to produce as much as consumes.
What you’re proposing is unlimited immigration. The government checks are to make sure the limited immigrants we get are of high quality.
I think OP is just doubting the government's ability to know which immigrants are higher quality vs. the companies who seek to employ them.
Exactly. I don’t believe that a company can be worse than the government in picking their employees. If the government has the ability to pick skilled employees, maybe all the employees(not just the immigrants)should be picked by the bureaucrats.
That’s what happens now. The company picks their own candidates. Did you think the government assigned employees to a company? Visa rejections may happen only if the immigrant has issues with their background, the paperwork/process was not done correctly or the quota has been hit.
The company needs to get permission from the government to employ that employee. That permission is the visa. It’s something you might or might not get. It’s not just a form you fill if you like to employ a foreigner. The company and the employee they want to employ have to win fking lottery to have their application processed. Read the article.
The government has a quota for how many immigrants it will let in per year. That’s why you need to win the lottery. If you lose the lottery, the quota has already been hit. The only reason the government doesn’t give “permission” is if it has hit the limit for that year.
Which brings me back to my original comment, you’re advocating for unlimited immigration.
Which brings me back to my original comment, you’re advocating for unlimited immigration.
Quota is just one reason for not being able to employ whoever you want.
Just because you can point out a reason, the reality doesn’t change. Nothing happens without a reason.
However, I agree that it’s nicer than European/British/Australian/Canadian point based system. At least US don’t try to pretend that it’s about skills.
Just because you can point out a reason, the reality doesn’t change. Nothing happens without a reason.
However, I agree that it’s nicer than European/British/Australian/Canadian point based system. At least US don’t try to pretend that it’s about skills.
Quota is virtually the only reason besides background checks.
Unless you’re referring to the requirement for a bachelors degree which in my opinion is perfectly reasonable. In that case the company won’t even put in the application.
Unless you’re referring to the requirement for a bachelors degree which in my opinion is perfectly reasonable. In that case the company won’t even put in the application.
but the companies are picking their chosen employees-to-be. the companies are literally the ones submitting the H1-B forms asking the government to approve their choice so they can employ them.
the government does not say "this person is not the right choice for this job." the government does however do the necessary criminal/education/security/background checks etc to make sure the candidate (or company) isn't lying. some of these checks may be difficult for a company without government-level resources (maybe?) to perform.
so if the checks are passed, and the company has performed the labor cert properly and there are visas left (quotas), then a visa is issued to the candidate that the company picked.
the government does not say "this person is not the right choice for this job." the government does however do the necessary criminal/education/security/background checks etc to make sure the candidate (or company) isn't lying. some of these checks may be difficult for a company without government-level resources (maybe?) to perform.
so if the checks are passed, and the company has performed the labor cert properly and there are visas left (quotas), then a visa is issued to the candidate that the company picked.
Have you ever heard about the concept of visa rejection? It’s a real thing that’s why there is also a visa lottery.
That’s why for companies it’s not the same thing to hire someone who has a foreign passport and the local one. H1-B it’s not just a form that you fill when you’re going to employ a foreign national.
That’s why for companies it’s not the same thing to hire someone who has a foreign passport and the local one. H1-B it’s not just a form that you fill when you’re going to employ a foreign national.
" the limited immigrants we get are of high quality."
and this is why I couldn't care less to emigrate to the US.
and this is why I couldn't care less to emigrate to the US.
Does immigration work differently in your country?
Some countries let in a lot of refugees which would presumably be bottom of the barrel tier immigrants.
> Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing?
Without something that functions like work visas, you have no mechanism to control immigration. And while racism is perhaps the main argument against employed against immigration, there are a few non-racist arguments you can make.
One of the primary reasons that work visas specifically exist in the first place is to ensure that immigrants do not become indigent and net drains on the state.
Without something that functions like work visas, you have no mechanism to control immigration. And while racism is perhaps the main argument against employed against immigration, there are a few non-racist arguments you can make.
One of the primary reasons that work visas specifically exist in the first place is to ensure that immigrants do not become indigent and net drains on the state.
Why do you reject working people then? Then the visa requirement should be something like “if you find a job you’re welcome to stay”.
What happens if the employer fires them 5 seconds into their first day of employment? Or the employer decides to offer the employee, say, 5 hours of work a year? You need some sort of program to verify that the job exists and is "real" in some fashion--this paperwork is the work visa.
Don't get me wrong: the US visa polices are a shambolic mess that is counterproductive to its own aims. I'd very much prefer a system that's a lot closer to "employer can sponsor anyone to come into the country if they need to hire from other countries." But what's preventing that isn't the existence of work visas; it's the unwillingness of politicians to advocate for such an immigration system (for which the primary reason I'd suspect boils down to some variant of racism--they feel immigration should be extremely difficult for various undesirable groups).
Don't get me wrong: the US visa polices are a shambolic mess that is counterproductive to its own aims. I'd very much prefer a system that's a lot closer to "employer can sponsor anyone to come into the country if they need to hire from other countries." But what's preventing that isn't the existence of work visas; it's the unwillingness of politicians to advocate for such an immigration system (for which the primary reason I'd suspect boils down to some variant of racism--they feel immigration should be extremely difficult for various undesirable groups).
Because the citizens of the nation don’t want to be undercut by foreigners in the job market.
Outside of supply constraints, there’s nothing stopping everything from being a minimum wage job.
Outside of supply constraints, there’s nothing stopping everything from being a minimum wage job.
A few comments up I wrote why this way of thinking is wrong. Artificial limit of worker supply isn’t doing anything good for the society.
FIY, the same argument was made against women’s employment. More people working doesn’t reduce prosperity.
FIY, the same argument was made against women’s employment. More people working doesn’t reduce prosperity.
It does seemingly benefit workers in the US. I know people who had a huge salary increase, working for the same company, by moving ~150mi from Vancouver to Seattle solely for moving.
And yet, before women entered the workforce it was possible to sustain a middle class household on one salary. Now it requires 2.
Capitalism always finds a way.
Capitalism always finds a way.
Companies can employ whoever they want wherever they want. No one is stopping Apple from hiring that Afghani shepherd. The primary purpose of work visas (and visas in general) is to regulate who can visit and live within a country's borders. Why is that not acceptable?
Apple can’t employ whoever they want. They have to ask for permission from the government(the actual logistics can differ, it may be framed like that employee which Apple wants to employee has to ask the government, but it’s the same thing).
Apple can employ whomever they want. They might not be able to employ whomever they want in the US (or insert any other specific country here), but they can employ whomever they want if they're willing to put up with the paperwork to have employees in other countries.
What makes you think Apple has to ask the government for permission before hiring someone?
Because that’s the law, they can’t employ illegal immigrants. They need to go to the government to make that immigrant a legal one. The government has to give permission for that immigrant to become legal.
Why does that person need to be an immigrant at all? If they find a skilled Afghan then employ them...in Afghanistan.
Because not all jobs can be remote or in different time zones. If they can employed them in Afghanistan, they would definitely do that, since they will be able to pay much less due to the local cost of living. It’s the same thing with employing people in SV and employing them remote in, say Utah.
> Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing?
Because citizens vote and migrant workers don't?
Because citizens vote and migrant workers don't?
I don’t understand what this means, but you can always change the laws to allow the migrants to vote I guess?
> I don’t understand what this means
It means that politicians are going to protect the labor market for their constituents. Visa restrictions are a form of trade protectionism except that the "good" being protected is labor.
Sometimes companies win subsidies or protectionist tariffs just with lobbyists. Workers have actual votes.
It means that politicians are going to protect the labor market for their constituents. Visa restrictions are a form of trade protectionism except that the "good" being protected is labor.
Sometimes companies win subsidies or protectionist tariffs just with lobbyists. Workers have actual votes.
The Congress is given the power to regulate commerce with foreign nations by the Constitution.
I never said it’s illegal
You asked "Can someone explain why work visas are an acceptable thing?". It's literally a power of Congress.
That's still dodging the question. The United States Congress manages United States visas, but the idea of a work visa or even a passport aren't American inventions, they are international norms. The question is why they are accepted by the global community, not how they are implemented in a local community.
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I think if you submit more than one application you should be processed last.
The spirit of the H-1B visa is being a last resort when filling vacant positions. "Prior deference" doesn't make much sense to me.
The spirit of the H-1B visa is being a last resort when filling vacant positions. "Prior deference" doesn't make much sense to me.
In recent years, though, the government found evidence that individual applicants were submitting as many as 10 entries into the lottery to increase their chances of winning. Many of those applicants, moreover, were being sponsored by the same handful of small, little-known tech companies.
Everyone knows Indian "consulting" companies abuse the process. Where are the prosecutions?
Everyone knows Indian "consulting" companies abuse the process. Where are the prosecutions?
All this gyration is too late for my son’s partner: they have decided to move away. I guess that was the intention, eh?
> foreign entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for visas
can this be done via executive action or rule making process? sounds like something that needs a new law.
can this be done via executive action or rule making process? sounds like something that needs a new law.
I am not a lawyer, but in US the federal law consists of 2 parts: US Code (USC), and Code of Federal Regulation (CFR).
The USC is created and maintained by the Congress. USC delegates to federal agencies implementation of USC through CFR, i.e. by writing it. Any changes to CFR, should be published and given a comment period, my understanding that it's 6 months. During this time, the Congress has option to review, and disapprove changes to CFR if they see that it makes sense. (Others could also write comments and send them to the federal agency).
My non-lawyerish understanding is that this describes proposed changes to CFR within the authority delegated by the congress.
The USC is created and maintained by the Congress. USC delegates to federal agencies implementation of USC through CFR, i.e. by writing it. Any changes to CFR, should be published and given a comment period, my understanding that it's 6 months. During this time, the Congress has option to review, and disapprove changes to CFR if they see that it makes sense. (Others could also write comments and send them to the federal agency).
My non-lawyerish understanding is that this describes proposed changes to CFR within the authority delegated by the congress.
>> Apart from the lottery changes, the Biden administration is also proposing, for the first time, to allow entrepreneurs to sponsor themselves for an H-1B visa. Until now, with narrow exceptions, professionals on these visas were required to be employees rather than owners of a company.
That change, if successful, would have a seismic impact on Silicon valley, where many of the people launching new tech startups are foreign-born and have few or no long-term options to remain in the country, typically after coming here for college.
Yeah this seems like a pretty big change i think will be taken to court for. This effectively makes the h1b visa an eb5 visa.
Yeah this seems like a pretty big change i think will be taken to court for. This effectively makes the h1b visa an eb5 visa.
Why on earth is there a lottery? Shouldn't we just rank them by the salary offered by their sponsor company and take the highest?
There are presumably shortages of domestic labor in fields other than high-frequency trading and AI (or whatever the top-paying job categories are).
Labor shortages in highly paid and sought after jobs are a myth. We have a massive labor force in the US, and any "shortage" could be addressed by training paid for by the employers. Of course they would rather import cheap foreign labor, but we are under no obligation to allow them to do so.
They can remedy a labor shortage by paying more.