Tuxedo Pulse Gen 3(tuxedocomputers.com)
tuxedocomputers.com
Tuxedo Pulse Gen 3
https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/TUXEDO-Pulse-14-Gen3.tuxedo
108 comments
No ANSI keyboard might be a deal breaker for my muscle memory and external keyboards (mechanical and MX keys that I had to import from the US because Logitech only sells ISO in the EU)
Why do you need a "specific keyboard" if your muscle memory is there? Just map it to whatever works for you.
I am typing all the time in us alt international on various physical keyboards that have printed buttons in spanish qwerty, swiss french qwertz and plain ansi us keyboards. It is only a problem for those that have very little experience/use of the keyboard.
I am typing all the time in us alt international on various physical keyboards that have printed buttons in spanish qwerty, swiss french qwertz and plain ansi us keyboards. It is only a problem for those that have very little experience/use of the keyboard.
Because muscle memory breaks if the physical layout of the keys is different. The parent is used to ANSI and might hit enter where there's a different key on ISO. I am used to ISO and my layout uses that key as a modifier and is barely usable on ANSI, simply because moving my pinky to the key above enter is uncomfortable for me.
We are much more adaptive than that. Among all my computers keyboards at home I have 4 different shape of the enter key and among the 2 that have a similar ANSI shape they don't have nearly the same size.
You'll always have your favorite physical layout but muscle memory can also adapt. The same way I don't ride my mountain bikes the same way I ride my road bikes I am naturally and unconsciously adapting to the different keyboards based on how they feel to my hands.
You'll always have your favorite physical layout but muscle memory can also adapt. The same way I don't ride my mountain bikes the same way I ride my road bikes I am naturally and unconsciously adapting to the different keyboards based on how they feel to my hands.
I agree. I use an Apple ANSI Magic Keyboard, MacBook Pro with Swedish layout, and a Keyboardio Atreus on a regular basis, and I can switch between them without trouble.
There’s definitely a bit of an adjustment period when I (re)introduce a keyboard into the rotation, but I can get back to proficiency within a day or two, and then I don’t notice it at all.
There’s definitely a bit of an adjustment period when I (re)introduce a keyboard into the rotation, but I can get back to proficiency within a day or two, and then I don’t notice it at all.
> We are much more adaptive than that.
Sure if I get this laptop for free I may adapt. But for $1500, thank you!
Sure if I get this laptop for free I may adapt. But for $1500, thank you!
It is not possible to "just map": Enter key has completely different shape and size and pushes backslash/pipe key to different row.
I'm used to ANSI with single row Enter and I don't seem to be able to switch to ISO (in the past I was forced to order and replace keyboard in my laptop because of that)
See my other reply above, we are much more adaptive than that.
Not all of us, "we" are not. If it works for you great, but "we" agree to disagree here.
If "you" are so different species, I'm looking with horror to the day when you need to replace your car.
Come on, button shape and placement (which is not that different, there is no round Caps Lock on Backspace) completely breaking the ability to work on the computer is the most retarded First World Problem.
Come on, button shape and placement (which is not that different, there is no round Caps Lock on Backspace) completely breaking the ability to work on the computer is the most retarded First World Problem.
>I'm looking with horror to the day when you need to replace your car
Which car of yours did ever swap the positions and shapes of the 3 pedals or the steering wheel?
Every (manual) car I ever drove had left pedal always clutch, middle one brake, and right one was the loud pedal and steering wheel was always in front of me and somewhat round shaped.
So what's there to adapt to when changing cars? At least use some good analogies if you want to play this game.
>completely breaking the ability to work on the computer is the most retarded First World Problem
Where did I say it's completely breaking the ability to work on the computer?
It's not, but it's annoying enough to affect my productivity, kind of like a rock in my shoe, and enough for me to prefer to stick to my ISO layout wherever I can.
But you do you, and let me do me. Peace out.
Which car of yours did ever swap the positions and shapes of the 3 pedals or the steering wheel?
Every (manual) car I ever drove had left pedal always clutch, middle one brake, and right one was the loud pedal and steering wheel was always in front of me and somewhat round shaped.
So what's there to adapt to when changing cars? At least use some good analogies if you want to play this game.
>completely breaking the ability to work on the computer is the most retarded First World Problem
Where did I say it's completely breaking the ability to work on the computer?
It's not, but it's annoying enough to affect my productivity, kind of like a rock in my shoe, and enough for me to prefer to stick to my ISO layout wherever I can.
But you do you, and let me do me. Peace out.
> Which car of yours did ever swap the positions and shapes of the 3 pedals or the steering wheel?
Every time I go from the UK or Ireland to continental Europe. The entire set of controls are on the other side of the vehicle, and some are mirrored (e.g. gear shift on the left or the right) and some aren't (e.g. the layout of the pedals). So I adapt.
Every time I switch from a manual to an automatic or back.
Works for keyboards, too.
When I type on PCs, the leftmost or rightmost key is Ctrl, the one next to the spacebar is Windows/Super, and the one in between them as Alt.
When I type on a Mac keyboard, I use the one next to the spacebar as Alt, the leftmost/rightmost as Cmd, and the one in between as Ctrl.
The key switch feel tells me which I'm typing on.
Switching between US and ISO layouts is similar.
This is not that hard.
Every time I go from the UK or Ireland to continental Europe. The entire set of controls are on the other side of the vehicle, and some are mirrored (e.g. gear shift on the left or the right) and some aren't (e.g. the layout of the pedals). So I adapt.
Every time I switch from a manual to an automatic or back.
Works for keyboards, too.
When I type on PCs, the leftmost or rightmost key is Ctrl, the one next to the spacebar is Windows/Super, and the one in between them as Alt.
When I type on a Mac keyboard, I use the one next to the spacebar as Alt, the leftmost/rightmost as Cmd, and the one in between as Ctrl.
The key switch feel tells me which I'm typing on.
Switching between US and ISO layouts is similar.
This is not that hard.
I borrowed a car that did not have a stick supporting the gear selector. Instead the gear was selected by a slide switch in the plane of the top of the center console. In my muscle memory, that is not where that function is.
What do I win in exchange for getting accustomed to this?
What do I win in exchange for getting accustomed to this?
> What do I win in exchange for getting accustomed to this?
Ask the shitheads placing PrtScr in the place of ContextMenu?
But this is irrelevant, TS states:
> I'm used to ANSI with single row Enter and I don't seem to be able to switch to ISO (in the past I was forced to order and replace keyboard in my laptop because of that
The size and form of the steering wheel, pedals and stick varies, yet they are located in the same place on a half-liter ultracompact and on a 5t lorry.
Since 90s I had used all the types of keyboards, with wildly different Enter-key shapes, with different "/" key placement, even with Escape being not the leftmost key. I used keyboards without any marks (and that wasn't Das Keyboard) and I used all the kinds of shitty keyboards (not including notebook ones). Aaaand I used all the notebook keyboards what some fuck decided to fuck with layout with absolutely no fucking reason. Oh, and let's not forget the greatest invention in 21st century: replacing the Function keys with whatever shitty function by default, because you reaaaaallly need to change the volume, monitor brightness, enable\disable wireless network and change the output to the external screen every couple of seconds, yes? Even the notebook in the topic has the power button where it should not be at all and which would actually break my muscle memory, because most sane notebook layouts have the Delete key there.
But I never ever had the trouble finding the Enter key on those keyboards. And I never had the trouble to actually adapt even to the shittiest keyboards. Well, except this PrtScr shit on the ThinkPads but even them.
Claiming a human being can't adapt to a slightly different form of the Enter key is like claiming what you can't drive the car because the steering wheel is slightly smaller than in your previous car.
Ask the shitheads placing PrtScr in the place of ContextMenu?
But this is irrelevant, TS states:
> I'm used to ANSI with single row Enter and I don't seem to be able to switch to ISO (in the past I was forced to order and replace keyboard in my laptop because of that
The size and form of the steering wheel, pedals and stick varies, yet they are located in the same place on a half-liter ultracompact and on a 5t lorry.
Since 90s I had used all the types of keyboards, with wildly different Enter-key shapes, with different "/" key placement, even with Escape being not the leftmost key. I used keyboards without any marks (and that wasn't Das Keyboard) and I used all the kinds of shitty keyboards (not including notebook ones). Aaaand I used all the notebook keyboards what some fuck decided to fuck with layout with absolutely no fucking reason. Oh, and let's not forget the greatest invention in 21st century: replacing the Function keys with whatever shitty function by default, because you reaaaaallly need to change the volume, monitor brightness, enable\disable wireless network and change the output to the external screen every couple of seconds, yes? Even the notebook in the topic has the power button where it should not be at all and which would actually break my muscle memory, because most sane notebook layouts have the Delete key there.
But I never ever had the trouble finding the Enter key on those keyboards. And I never had the trouble to actually adapt even to the shittiest keyboards. Well, except this PrtScr shit on the ThinkPads but even them.
Claiming a human being can't adapt to a slightly different form of the Enter key is like claiming what you can't drive the car because the steering wheel is slightly smaller than in your previous car.
Exactly. They even offer a "complete black keyboard" with no letterprints at all - definitely aimed at power users.
The difference between ISO and ANSI is the physical layout, i.e. the shape of the Enter key and the left shift key.
There's nothing wrong with having a preference. In fact, keyboards and mice are one of the most common things where people have set preferences.
The thread will argue it, and they are welcome to, but you want what you want. :)
The thread will argue it, and they are welcome to, but you want what you want. :)
They announced that an ANSI keyboard option was planned, iirc the reddit post
> With the TUXEDO Control Center you are able to control the performance and the behavior of the fans by yourself.
I remember seeing this project years ago when I tried to reverse engineer my own laptop's fan control functions.
https://github.com/tuxedocomputers/tuxedo-control-center
I actually tried to make it work on my laptop back then. Didn't succeed unfortunately.
I'd really enjoy reading about how they figured out the power management and fan control stuff. I couldn't figure it out. Did they have to reverse engineer? As a manufacturer, do they have access to documentation? I emailed Clevo asking for documentation and they didn't send me anything helpful.
I remember seeing this project years ago when I tried to reverse engineer my own laptop's fan control functions.
https://github.com/tuxedocomputers/tuxedo-control-center
I actually tried to make it work on my laptop back then. Didn't succeed unfortunately.
I'd really enjoy reading about how they figured out the power management and fan control stuff. I couldn't figure it out. Did they have to reverse engineer? As a manufacturer, do they have access to documentation? I emailed Clevo asking for documentation and they didn't send me anything helpful.
I can't really confirm if it's the place to look at, but the tuxedo control center works in pair with their kernel module https://github.com/tuxedocomputers/tuxedo-keyboard
As the name wrongly imply, it is not just about controlling the keyboard. At least on my laptop (an aura15 gen 2), a whole chunk of the control center is not available when the module is not loaded. Not sure if it will help but you might want to look into this module as well for your investigation.
As the name wrongly imply, it is not just about controlling the keyboard. At least on my laptop (an aura15 gen 2), a whole chunk of the control center is not available when the module is not loaded. Not sure if it will help but you might want to look into this module as well for your investigation.
Oh yeah, I remember that now. Back then I looked up those UUIDs on my laptop but none matched. The keyboard features are also different: they're implemented via ACPI on the Tuxedo laptops and via USB control messages on mine.
It's weird. There's all this Clevo ACPI/WMI stuff in those headers but when I dumped my laptop's DSDT tables there was nothing like that. I found some WMI code in there, ran them through a decompiler I found in a GitHub repository and just got back some empty stub code. I still feel disappointed about it.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/DSDT
It's really cool that they added sysfs LED controls. I remember looking into that as well. I was planning to send USB LED driver to the kernel but while reading kernel dricer source code and mailing lists to learn how to do it I came across comments saying they prefer to keep stuff in user space whenever possible.
This is my driver in case anyone's interested:
https://github.com/matheusmoreira/ite-829x
I just remembered something else. They used to be on bitbucket instead of github. In 2018 I messaged them there.
https://bitbucket.org/tuxedocomputers/clevo-xsm-wmi/issues/4...
They asked me to email them. I did and they actually sent me the control center software before they released it and also some details about how they were interfacing with the laptop's embedded controller. I still have those emails, they were very helpful. Very nice company and people.
It's weird. There's all this Clevo ACPI/WMI stuff in those headers but when I dumped my laptop's DSDT tables there was nothing like that. I found some WMI code in there, ran them through a decompiler I found in a GitHub repository and just got back some empty stub code. I still feel disappointed about it.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/DSDT
It's really cool that they added sysfs LED controls. I remember looking into that as well. I was planning to send USB LED driver to the kernel but while reading kernel dricer source code and mailing lists to learn how to do it I came across comments saying they prefer to keep stuff in user space whenever possible.
This is my driver in case anyone's interested:
https://github.com/matheusmoreira/ite-829x
I just remembered something else. They used to be on bitbucket instead of github. In 2018 I messaged them there.
https://bitbucket.org/tuxedocomputers/clevo-xsm-wmi/issues/4...
They asked me to email them. I did and they actually sent me the control center software before they released it and also some details about how they were interfacing with the laptop's embedded controller. I still have those emails, they were very helpful. Very nice company and people.
I was a bit surprised when I read "4x USB, HDMI and 2x Mini DisplayPort". It looks like it doesn't have 2 actual Mini DisplayPorts, but instead the 2 USB-C ports support DisplayPort 1.4.
It's been a while since I was tempted to buy a laptop (granted I don't really look), but this configuration and price seems pretty great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort
It's been a while since I was tempted to buy a laptop (granted I don't really look), but this configuration and price seems pretty great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort
I own one of the previous generations of this laptop and I want to say that the batteries are a bit of a sham (hopefully they're better in this new one). I've had to change them once a year, because they drop from 100% health to 60% in less than 12 months. Each replacement was around 80-90EUR.
I've had similar issues.
At a few months old, the laptop (a Tuxedo InfinityBook Pro 14 Gen 6) couldn't hold a meeting.
Their customer service suggested I disabled the graphics card and to throttle the CPU, converting a $2000 laptop into a $1000 one spec-wise.
After a year and a half, I've just moved to a Thinkpad at half the cost and I couldn't be happier.
I wanted to support a smaller company rather than Lenovo but that's how it is, there where many other nuances I had to deal with (2 dead pixels, awful sound, microphone was meh, TuxedoOS started giving me kernel problems every update...).
At a few months old, the laptop (a Tuxedo InfinityBook Pro 14 Gen 6) couldn't hold a meeting.
Their customer service suggested I disabled the graphics card and to throttle the CPU, converting a $2000 laptop into a $1000 one spec-wise.
After a year and a half, I've just moved to a Thinkpad at half the cost and I couldn't be happier.
I wanted to support a smaller company rather than Lenovo but that's how it is, there where many other nuances I had to deal with (2 dead pixels, awful sound, microphone was meh, TuxedoOS started giving me kernel problems every update...).
This looks like a great deal and makes me regret my recent laptop purchase :/ Bit of a bummer because I rarely use and upgrade them.
At least now I know where to look for the next one, especially in Germany where it's annoyingly difficult to get a US QWERTY kb.
At least now I know where to look for the next one, especially in Germany where it's annoyingly difficult to get a US QWERTY kb.
Not bad. But I wonder why they went for 7840HS, instead of the lower TDP 7840u.
Spec wise this one is quite close to lenovo t14s/p14s gen 4, which can also be configured with a similar screen (there is also the yoga slim 7 gen 8, but it has a glossy screen).
Spec wise this one is quite close to lenovo t14s/p14s gen 4, which can also be configured with a similar screen (there is also the yoga slim 7 gen 8, but it has a glossy screen).
This config is GPU-less so it has the thermal / power budget to handle it.
It's kind of meant as developer machine.
As far as I can tell the trend was first started by the Mechrevo code 01. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-4000-mechrevo-la... Which actually got a decent amount of press have some initial Twitter hype. Several other Clevo based brands followed like Tuxedo and XMG. Not sure that Clevo actually intended it as a dev focused config originally, but they definitely leaned into it with later revisions after they saw the enthusiasm.
Not for everyone, personally the Framework 16 appeals a lot more to me (I've preorded), but when I was in college the pure CPU maximization probably would have won me over.
As far as I can tell the trend was first started by the Mechrevo code 01. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-4000-mechrevo-la... Which actually got a decent amount of press have some initial Twitter hype. Several other Clevo based brands followed like Tuxedo and XMG. Not sure that Clevo actually intended it as a dev focused config originally, but they definitely leaned into it with later revisions after they saw the enthusiasm.
Not for everyone, personally the Framework 16 appeals a lot more to me (I've preorded), but when I was in college the pure CPU maximization probably would have won me over.
The Mechrevo Code 01 was a Tong Fang ODM chassis. XMG/Tuxedo (sister companies) have varying laptop models from both Tong Fang (Uniwill now?) and Clevo.
Historically, a lot of devs using Linux laptops have preferred iGPU models both to maximize useful perf/watt (dGPUs models tended to drain power much faster even when idle) and b/c most dGPU laptops are Nvidia-based and the driver issues used to be terrible. I wonder if that calculus will be changing now w/ local LLM code-helpers and other AI apps benefit greatly from stronger GPUs.
Historically, a lot of devs using Linux laptops have preferred iGPU models both to maximize useful perf/watt (dGPUs models tended to drain power much faster even when idle) and b/c most dGPU laptops are Nvidia-based and the driver issues used to be terrible. I wonder if that calculus will be changing now w/ local LLM code-helpers and other AI apps benefit greatly from stronger GPUs.
It might come down to availability, although in general I prefer the higher wattage chips since they will usually have higher specced cooling and if you want to lower power consumption, you can use a tool like ryzenadj to lower power limits (but usually not increase power, which is usually hardware locked).
This looks really good. If I had any reason to buy a laptop today, this design would be at the top of my list.
€1100 base price. Not too bad given the specs.
`var USB-C_charging = true;` in the screenshot isn't valid JavaScript.
The `else` badly wants to be in an expression-oriented language, too.
JavaScript would be a strange choice for "fake code for marketing website" even if it was correct code...
JavaScript would be a strange choice for "fake code for marketing website" even if it was correct code...
You could start the "can I sell this with brainfuck?" challenge. Or k. K would be an interesting thing to see on a sales page.
Oh, wait, even better, every time the page loads in the code graphic swaps from one arcane language to another.
Oh, wait, even better, every time the page loads in the code graphic swaps from one arcane language to another.
IPS panel & only 100% sRGB? Linux laptops keeping the trend of mediocre displays.
And to boot: no USB4, & unergonomic ISO key layout instead of an ANSI option
And to boot: no USB4, & unergonomic ISO key layout instead of an ANSI option
Amazing. I own the Gen2 and am very happy with it. Good to see that now you don't need the stupid dock any more in order to run multiple screens, but you can do it via the 2x USB-C and the HDMI with the new model.
I can only recommend this laptop.
I can only recommend this laptop.
I own a Gen 1, and outside of the very noisy fans and the useless sound card, everything works really well. I would also recommend this laptop
Strange, for a company, advertising to the Linux community, to offer only Laptops with Nvidia dGPUs, where you actually have to taint your kernel/userspace with proprietary software in order to use it.
There are basically no laptops with AMD GPUs. Why? I don't know. I think in the last months I've only seen one and I don't remember it as a laptop someone would buy.
Yeah they are quite rare, I bought an ASUS ROG Strix Advantage edition because it has an AMD CPU and GPU and have been quite happy with it.
I don’t know if they make them anymore but I highly recommend it.
I don’t know if they make them anymore but I highly recommend it.
Well, this is a company that creates Linux laptops. So if they decide to offer laptops with dGPU, they might want to use hardware that is well supported by Linux.
Laptops with Nvidia dGPUs are available from many/most other manufacturers, as you said, so there is no real reason to buy them from them. Especially if they offer sub-par Linux experience.
Laptops with Nvidia dGPUs are available from many/most other manufacturers, as you said, so there is no real reason to buy them from them. Especially if they offer sub-par Linux experience.
I get your point but I think this is an AMD problem.
Their can't keep up with the demand on the laptop market. How old are their Zen 4 processors? There are barely laptops with them. We had to wait months for a real use benchmark because it was impossible to get them.
Right now if I see and AMD GPU I wouldn't even know if it's new gen or from 3 years ago.
They are not on the market mobile market.
Their can't keep up with the demand on the laptop market. How old are their Zen 4 processors? There are barely laptops with them. We had to wait months for a real use benchmark because it was impossible to get them.
Right now if I see and AMD GPU I wouldn't even know if it's new gen or from 3 years ago.
They are not on the market mobile market.
That's pretty dogmatic. I don't see much issue with proprietary drivers (even if it's not ideal how Linux handles that) if they actually worked properly, which unfortunately they don't..
Not that this is relevant for this laptop.
Not that this is relevant for this laptop.
This isn't dogmatic, it is practical considerations.
From experience, open-source drivers that are integrated into the kernel and open-source source user space have much better quality, better out-of-box experience, and push the whole ecosystem forward.
Compared to closed-source drivers, which often need to catch up to modern software, and are difficult to debug, they need additional steps to integrate and often have to build their own stuff instead of improving existing solutions that help everyone.
You will not get helpful support for errors in your proprietary driver from the manifacturer in most cases, while you get support and fixes from the open source community. It is much easier to isolate the issues if you can access the code.
From experience, open-source drivers that are integrated into the kernel and open-source source user space have much better quality, better out-of-box experience, and push the whole ecosystem forward.
Compared to closed-source drivers, which often need to catch up to modern software, and are difficult to debug, they need additional steps to integrate and often have to build their own stuff instead of improving existing solutions that help everyone.
You will not get helpful support for errors in your proprietary driver from the manifacturer in most cases, while you get support and fixes from the open source community. It is much easier to isolate the issues if you can access the code.
What do you mean "only"? This specific model has a AMD Radeon 780M card.
But that is a iGPU.
Shame that an extra 30 EUR must be paid for French users to use the non-legacy AZERTY+ (NF Z71-300) keyboard layout. I believe the only one proposed is the old AZERTY layout.
After I experienced ARM chips in macbooks x86 laptops are no more for me.
I wouldn’t be able to do it until Asahi Linux is totally done. Paying 1.5k for a laptop that doesn’t respect you is quite a big ask. They’d have to pay me to use Mac OS, as someone would have to pay me to use Windows.
I’m glad these options exist such as Tuxedo.
I’m glad these options exist such as Tuxedo.
Got a Mac for work. I’m sure I’m holding it wrong, but to me it just doesn’t measure up to Linux/Gnome. Of particular annoyance is that Mac will just ignore my scroll wheel input sometimes. I suspect it’s a heuristics thing aimed at trackpads. Lots of other small things where Mac doesn’t measure up. And Homebrew is inferior to most Linux package managers. Mac is very focused on the use-case of GUI-only, trackpad-only, no external monitor, unplugged usage. That’s fine, but it’s really not how I use computers.
> will just ignore my scroll wheel input sometimes.
The other day I was trying to set the scroll speed (and have it consistent for all apps) on KDE and it was quite a struggle. AFAIK it just works on Gnome/Wayland but having to chose between something as basic as this and using a DE the UX of which I personally find slightly repulsive (at least in default config) doesn't seem ideal.
The other day I was trying to set the scroll speed (and have it consistent for all apps) on KDE and it was quite a struggle. AFAIK it just works on Gnome/Wayland but having to chose between something as basic as this and using a DE the UX of which I personally find slightly repulsive (at least in default config) doesn't seem ideal.
> They’d have to pay me to use Mac OS
And for many HN users, they do get paid to use Mac OS and offered a Macbook for work. I personally still use Linux for work but I have to admit it hinders my work in certain ways (e.g. no easy access to testing Safari and no way to test VoiceOver). But I couldn't trade my setup for whatever Apple decides is best for me. So I appreciate companies still pushing for more solid Linux-first laptops.
And for many HN users, they do get paid to use Mac OS and offered a Macbook for work. I personally still use Linux for work but I have to admit it hinders my work in certain ways (e.g. no easy access to testing Safari and no way to test VoiceOver). But I couldn't trade my setup for whatever Apple decides is best for me. So I appreciate companies still pushing for more solid Linux-first laptops.
Those ARM chips seem really nice but there is not yet much choice if you want a usable OS and more hardware variants.
Happy paying 3x more?
Not the person you're replying to, but I'm afraid so. MacBooks are just so far ahead of their "competition" that it's not funny.
The M2 MacBook Pros are about as close as you can get to a perfect laptop. Really, I wish it wasn't so. It would arguably be better for everyone (except Apple) if there was some serious competition at the top end of the market. But there just isn't.
I've still yet to see another laptop that has even passable handling of sleep states / other parts of power management. (A lot of this is an OS integration problem, so Apple is playing on easy mode here.)
I've still yet to see another laptop with an even passable trackpad. (Again, OS integration, plus a stupid amount of heuristics built into the hardware itself to interpret what you actually meant when you touched the trackpad in an awkward way.)
I've still yet to see a laptop with a keyboard as nice as the current generation MacBooks. (The first generation of M1 MacBook laptops was awful, but they fixed it. Also this point isn't really fair because I haven't really seriously looked.)
I've still yet to see a laptop with as slick of a chassis and display.
I've still yet to see another laptop that can chew through demanding workloads, remain snappy the whole time, and not simultaneously sounds like a jet engine and throttle itself to a near halt.
But really, just give me proper power management and a decent trackpad and I'll call it a serious competitor.
The M2 MacBook Pros are about as close as you can get to a perfect laptop. Really, I wish it wasn't so. It would arguably be better for everyone (except Apple) if there was some serious competition at the top end of the market. But there just isn't.
I've still yet to see another laptop that has even passable handling of sleep states / other parts of power management. (A lot of this is an OS integration problem, so Apple is playing on easy mode here.)
I've still yet to see another laptop with an even passable trackpad. (Again, OS integration, plus a stupid amount of heuristics built into the hardware itself to interpret what you actually meant when you touched the trackpad in an awkward way.)
I've still yet to see a laptop with a keyboard as nice as the current generation MacBooks. (The first generation of M1 MacBook laptops was awful, but they fixed it. Also this point isn't really fair because I haven't really seriously looked.)
I've still yet to see a laptop with as slick of a chassis and display.
I've still yet to see another laptop that can chew through demanding workloads, remain snappy the whole time, and not simultaneously sounds like a jet engine and throttle itself to a near halt.
But really, just give me proper power management and a decent trackpad and I'll call it a serious competitor.
That combination of decent performance (even while unplugged), battery life, and silence is hard to come by in x86 laptops, even in ultraportables built with efficiency-focused laptop CPUs where one would expect at least battery life and fan noise to not be issues.
Apple’s silicon helps here but I wonder if part of the problem isn’t x86 laptop manufacturers trying too hard to juice perf numbers at the cost of all else, as well as penny pinching on heatsink and fan.
Apple’s silicon helps here but I wonder if part of the problem isn’t x86 laptop manufacturers trying too hard to juice perf numbers at the cost of all else, as well as penny pinching on heatsink and fan.
Ever opened up the average laptop? They look like someone threw the list of component dimensions at a bin packing algorithm, let it run for a couple of minutes, then added some extra plastic struts to fill the dead space.
It feels like nobody* else is even _trying_.
(*Except Framework. Those guys are awesome.)
It feels like nobody* else is even _trying_.
(*Except Framework. Those guys are awesome.)
That makes it sound like there's a lot of end on the premium end of the market.
> Except Framework
They are obviously doing a great job at what they set out to do but besides reparability and customization I don't think they are really ahead in anything compared to some premium Windows laptops.
They are obviously doing a great job at what they set out to do but besides reparability and customization I don't think they are really ahead in anything compared to some premium Windows laptops.
Apart from Framework, Purism also care about users opening up their laptops: https://docs.puri.sm/Librem_14/Maintenance/Disassembly.html
> efficiency-focused laptop CPUs where one would expect at least battery life and fan noise to not be issues.
AMD laptops seem to be pretty decent at that. You can get something on par or even ahead of MBPs in battery life and performance and just a bit louder fans (IMHO the Air is till unbeatable if it works for your use case though)
AMD laptops seem to be pretty decent at that. You can get something on par or even ahead of MBPs in battery life and performance and just a bit louder fans (IMHO the Air is till unbeatable if it works for your use case though)
I agree with some of that, but none of it is worth sacrificing user freedom. Using an Apple product is being forced to use computers in exactly the way Apple designed them, with very little room for customization of the experience. This might be fine if your preferences align with Apple's, or if you just don't care, but for tinkerers and tech enthusiasts it's an oppressive and limited environment. And at the end of the day, it still has its own share of issues, like any device, so it's always a tradeoff.
I'd trade lower build quality and performance per watt for software freedom any day of the week. No, Asahi Linux is not a serious option.
I'd trade lower build quality and performance per watt for software freedom any day of the week. No, Asahi Linux is not a serious option.
Why is Asahi not a serious option? Linus Torvalds himself uses Asahi on an Apple Silicon Mac, that is a pretty solid endorsement of it being a serious option.
The reasons appear idealogical rather than practical, which is interesting given the problem at hand.
How did you reach that conclusion? On the contrary, my reasons are purely practical. The fact Linus uses Asahi is far from an endorsement for regular users. He obviously has a much deeper knowledge of Linux compared to a regular user, with the skills to troubleshoot and fix most issues.
My reasons for not considering it:
- As skilled as the Asahi team is, they're a small team going against one of the world's largest corporations. Not only does it take immense effort to reverse engineer every single hardware component, the project will always be at the mercy of Apple, who may break the support at any time with a software or hardware update, whether willing or unwillingly.
- The Linux software ecosystem is sufficiently unstable on its own, but also running it on ARM, _and_ an alien hardware environment, presents even more challenges. As much as the Asahi team has made progress here, expecting them to support all variations of software in this landscape is unreasonable. I definitely don't want to have additional issues to troubleshoot, which I'm tired of doing with Linux to begin with. Cue the replies claiming how Asahi works flawlessly...
That's a whole lot of shaky ground to base my computing on, and I wouldn't consider it even for personal, let alone professional, use. Maybe if Apple started opening up and officially supporting Linux on their hardware, I _might_ consider a project like Asahi, but until then, it's a non-starter for me.
My reasons for not considering it:
- As skilled as the Asahi team is, they're a small team going against one of the world's largest corporations. Not only does it take immense effort to reverse engineer every single hardware component, the project will always be at the mercy of Apple, who may break the support at any time with a software or hardware update, whether willing or unwillingly.
- The Linux software ecosystem is sufficiently unstable on its own, but also running it on ARM, _and_ an alien hardware environment, presents even more challenges. As much as the Asahi team has made progress here, expecting them to support all variations of software in this landscape is unreasonable. I definitely don't want to have additional issues to troubleshoot, which I'm tired of doing with Linux to begin with. Cue the replies claiming how Asahi works flawlessly...
That's a whole lot of shaky ground to base my computing on, and I wouldn't consider it even for personal, let alone professional, use. Maybe if Apple started opening up and officially supporting Linux on their hardware, I _might_ consider a project like Asahi, but until then, it's a non-starter for me.
> expecting them to support all variations of software in this landscape is unreasonable.
They don't support variations of software at all. They support the hardware. If the drivers work then the software just works. Software is built on APIs. Asahi does not need to support applications.
> always be at the mercy of Apple, who may break the support at any time
Same deal for any other hardware manufacturer. The x86 PC manufacturers are still using proprietary undocumented hardware components to this day, even the ones who you believe are "officially" supporting Linux. It only works because devs are reverse engineering devices without support from the manufacturers.
> but also running it on ARM, _and_ an alien hardware environment, presents even more challenges
ARM is a stable well supported platform for Linux, so the CPU is less of an issue for Asahi devs. Graphics hardware is somewhat "Alien" but is also stable now on Asahi.
They don't support variations of software at all. They support the hardware. If the drivers work then the software just works. Software is built on APIs. Asahi does not need to support applications.
> always be at the mercy of Apple, who may break the support at any time
Same deal for any other hardware manufacturer. The x86 PC manufacturers are still using proprietary undocumented hardware components to this day, even the ones who you believe are "officially" supporting Linux. It only works because devs are reverse engineering devices without support from the manufacturers.
> but also running it on ARM, _and_ an alien hardware environment, presents even more challenges
ARM is a stable well supported platform for Linux, so the CPU is less of an issue for Asahi devs. Graphics hardware is somewhat "Alien" but is also stable now on Asahi.
> They don't support variations of software at all. They support the hardware. [...] Asahi does not need to support applications at all.
From their FAQ page[1]:
> We will eventually release a remix of Arch Linux ARM, packaged for installation by end-users, as a distribution of the same name. The majority of the work resides in hardware support, drivers, and tools, and it will be upstreamed to the relevant projects. The distribution will be a convenient package for easy installation by end-users and give them access to bleeding-edge versions of the software we develop.
As distro maintainers, it is their job to make sure the applications they package work on the hardware they support. This includes submitting patches upstream when that is not the case, as application maintainers likely wouldn't want to support such a niche environment directly. So, yes, they rely on volunteers to fix issues, but they will likely have to support many applications themselves.
There is still a lot of broken software, as this list[2] is surely not exhaustive.
Regardless, all this amounts to less choice of software for the user. The Asahi team has already decided to stop supporting Xorg, and say what you will about Xorg, there will be many applications they realistically can't or won't support for whatever reason.
> Same deal for any other hardware manufacturer. [...] Really not much different to other hardware manufacturers since Linux started.
No, it's very different. First of all, the amount of Linux hackers who volunteered to reverse engineer the wide variety of hardware was orders of magnitude larger than the Asahi team. Even if they limit the amount of devices they support, modern computers are far more complex than in the early days of Linux. Regardless of how talented the Asahi team is, maintaining all the hardware of a modern computer is a sisyphean task for a small group of volunteers.
Secondly, hardware manufacturers could see the benefit of getting their hardware to run in Linux, and many eventually took over support from volunteers. Apple has shown no interest in doing so, and has historically been hostile to open source.
> Asahi devs have made it clear that Apple has chosen to avoid blocking installation of other operating systems.
The fact they allow installation of other operating systems today, doesn't mean that this decision couldn't change in the future. Services are a large part of their business, and allowing a group of hackers to use their hardware without being part of their software ecosystem may seem like a non-issue today, but if this group grows larger assuming projects like Asahi are successful, this might become a considerable loss of income which wouldn't be in their best interest.
> Apple has no issue with it.
Can you point me to an official ackgnowledgment of Asahi Linux by Apple? Or any indication that leaving this door open was a sign of good will, instead of a lack of interest in closing it? What makes you think they wouldn't eventually lock down Macs in the same way they do iPhones and iPads?
> ARM is a stable well supported platform for Linux
It's really not. A lot of software works, but when it doesn't, the user is SOL. As you can see on their Broken Software page[2], the major issue is precisely with AArch64 support. This should improve eventually, and Asahi is certainly a torchbearer in this scenario, but today it's yet another hurdle of using Apple hardware.
[1]: https://asahilinux.org/about/#is-this-a-linux-distribution
[2]: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software
From their FAQ page[1]:
> We will eventually release a remix of Arch Linux ARM, packaged for installation by end-users, as a distribution of the same name. The majority of the work resides in hardware support, drivers, and tools, and it will be upstreamed to the relevant projects. The distribution will be a convenient package for easy installation by end-users and give them access to bleeding-edge versions of the software we develop.
As distro maintainers, it is their job to make sure the applications they package work on the hardware they support. This includes submitting patches upstream when that is not the case, as application maintainers likely wouldn't want to support such a niche environment directly. So, yes, they rely on volunteers to fix issues, but they will likely have to support many applications themselves.
There is still a lot of broken software, as this list[2] is surely not exhaustive.
Regardless, all this amounts to less choice of software for the user. The Asahi team has already decided to stop supporting Xorg, and say what you will about Xorg, there will be many applications they realistically can't or won't support for whatever reason.
> Same deal for any other hardware manufacturer. [...] Really not much different to other hardware manufacturers since Linux started.
No, it's very different. First of all, the amount of Linux hackers who volunteered to reverse engineer the wide variety of hardware was orders of magnitude larger than the Asahi team. Even if they limit the amount of devices they support, modern computers are far more complex than in the early days of Linux. Regardless of how talented the Asahi team is, maintaining all the hardware of a modern computer is a sisyphean task for a small group of volunteers.
Secondly, hardware manufacturers could see the benefit of getting their hardware to run in Linux, and many eventually took over support from volunteers. Apple has shown no interest in doing so, and has historically been hostile to open source.
> Asahi devs have made it clear that Apple has chosen to avoid blocking installation of other operating systems.
The fact they allow installation of other operating systems today, doesn't mean that this decision couldn't change in the future. Services are a large part of their business, and allowing a group of hackers to use their hardware without being part of their software ecosystem may seem like a non-issue today, but if this group grows larger assuming projects like Asahi are successful, this might become a considerable loss of income which wouldn't be in their best interest.
> Apple has no issue with it.
Can you point me to an official ackgnowledgment of Asahi Linux by Apple? Or any indication that leaving this door open was a sign of good will, instead of a lack of interest in closing it? What makes you think they wouldn't eventually lock down Macs in the same way they do iPhones and iPads?
> ARM is a stable well supported platform for Linux
It's really not. A lot of software works, but when it doesn't, the user is SOL. As you can see on their Broken Software page[2], the major issue is precisely with AArch64 support. This should improve eventually, and Asahi is certainly a torchbearer in this scenario, but today it's yet another hurdle of using Apple hardware.
[1]: https://asahilinux.org/about/#is-this-a-linux-distribution
[2]: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software
> Can you point me to an official ackgnowledgment of Asahi Linux by Apple?
No but there is this:
https://asahilinux.org/about/
"Does Apple allow this? Don’t you need a jailbreak? Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon Macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. That means that, unlike iOS devices, Apple does not intend to lock down what OS you can use on Macs (though they probably won’t help with the development)."
> A lot of software works, but when it doesn't, the user is SOL.
Talking about the Kernel (Linux itself). Applications are another story.
You are looking at it all from a very conservative enterprise perspective. Worried about long term support etc for a mission critical system. Asahi is not pretending to be an enterprise solution.
For someone just using it on their laptop, none of this is much of an issue.
If Asahi works today on your M1 Pro, and its good enough for your daily work, then it's fine. If support disappears in a few years, then simply switch to another device at that time. At least you will have had a few years of use out of a decent machine. Life is too short to worry too much about these things as an individual just using their laptop as a workstation or for personal use. Worst case in five years just buy another laptop that works for you, and move on.
No but there is this:
https://asahilinux.org/about/
"Does Apple allow this? Don’t you need a jailbreak? Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon Macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. That means that, unlike iOS devices, Apple does not intend to lock down what OS you can use on Macs (though they probably won’t help with the development)."
> A lot of software works, but when it doesn't, the user is SOL.
Talking about the Kernel (Linux itself). Applications are another story.
You are looking at it all from a very conservative enterprise perspective. Worried about long term support etc for a mission critical system. Asahi is not pretending to be an enterprise solution.
For someone just using it on their laptop, none of this is much of an issue.
If Asahi works today on your M1 Pro, and its good enough for your daily work, then it's fine. If support disappears in a few years, then simply switch to another device at that time. At least you will have had a few years of use out of a decent machine. Life is too short to worry too much about these things as an individual just using their laptop as a workstation or for personal use. Worst case in five years just buy another laptop that works for you, and move on.
Yes, I saw that quote, but it doesn't fill me with confidence. For one, I think developing a custom bootloader[1] qualifies as a hack. It certainly doesn't feel like an "actual feature". Is it documented anywhere?
Also, how do they know that "Apple does not intend to lock down what OS you can use on Macs"? Again, I would like to see some official confirmation from Apple.
> Worried about long term support etc for a mission critical system. Asahi is not pretending to be an enterprise solution.
No, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a single user for personal, and potentially professional, use. I _really_ don't want to go back to the user experience of Linux in the 90s, when barely anything worked, and the user had to spend hours tinkering to get basic features working, if they were supported at all. If that sounds fun for you, go ahead and enjoy the Apple hardware, but I'd like my machines to work. I'm annoyed by mainstream Linux enough as it is; I really don't need more reasons to dislike it.
> If Asahi works today on your M1 Pro, and its good enough for your daily work, then it's fine.
Buying a $2k machine to realize it doesn't support my workflow seems like a risky investment. As well as being at the mercy of a small group of volunteers and a trillion dollar corporation that it will continue to work for at least a few years.
[1]: https://asahilinux.org/2021/03/progress-report-january-febru...
Also, how do they know that "Apple does not intend to lock down what OS you can use on Macs"? Again, I would like to see some official confirmation from Apple.
> Worried about long term support etc for a mission critical system. Asahi is not pretending to be an enterprise solution.
No, I'm looking at it from the perspective of a single user for personal, and potentially professional, use. I _really_ don't want to go back to the user experience of Linux in the 90s, when barely anything worked, and the user had to spend hours tinkering to get basic features working, if they were supported at all. If that sounds fun for you, go ahead and enjoy the Apple hardware, but I'd like my machines to work. I'm annoyed by mainstream Linux enough as it is; I really don't need more reasons to dislike it.
> If Asahi works today on your M1 Pro, and its good enough for your daily work, then it's fine.
Buying a $2k machine to realize it doesn't support my workflow seems like a risky investment. As well as being at the mercy of a small group of volunteers and a trillion dollar corporation that it will continue to work for at least a few years.
[1]: https://asahilinux.org/2021/03/progress-report-january-febru...
> Also, how do they know that "Apple does not intend to lock down what OS you can use on Macs"
They don't. And it really doesn't matter to some people. The current hardware is not locked down, therefore it can always run Linux. Future devices are not guaranteed to work, but those do not exist today.
> Buying a $2k machine to realize it doesn't support my workflow
You're simply not the target user. The people who are enthusiastically using Asahi know what to expect and are happy with it as it runs the software they need to use today. Of course it is not a mainstream option that every Linux user can use.
> that it will continue to work for at least a few years.
Once the hardware in your device is reverse engineered and drivers developed for it, that is done and will continue to work for a long time. The risk is future devices (Apple M6, M7, etc).
They don't. And it really doesn't matter to some people. The current hardware is not locked down, therefore it can always run Linux. Future devices are not guaranteed to work, but those do not exist today.
> Buying a $2k machine to realize it doesn't support my workflow
You're simply not the target user. The people who are enthusiastically using Asahi know what to expect and are happy with it as it runs the software they need to use today. Of course it is not a mainstream option that every Linux user can use.
> that it will continue to work for at least a few years.
Once the hardware in your device is reverse engineered and drivers developed for it, that is done and will continue to work for a long time. The risk is future devices (Apple M6, M7, etc).
It's an "inconvenient truth" that plenty in the saltier circles of the Linux world really don't like. Getting a good *nix environment on a laptop is a struggle. Even on lines like the ThinkPads you still have paper cuts like bad touchpads, DSP-less audio, terrible battery life, or buggy drivers making the experience unpleasant. Nothing single device has brought everything together as well as an M2 MacBook Pro, and it's a damn shame.
I'll bite for some of your points.
> I've still yet to see another laptop that has even passable handling of sleep states / other parts of power management.
That's the advantage of Apple where they control both hardware and software. It's hard to replicate, so yeah, they have an edge here.
> I've still yet to see another laptop with an even passable trackpad.
Never understood this comment, if you use keyboards instead for shortcuts the trackpad is hardly something you care about. this seems like a comment from Apple users who justify the trackpad as the key differentiator to not even consider anything else, even though the rest of the world has no problem not using Apple trackpads.
> I've still yet to see a laptop with a keyboard as nice as the current generation MacBooks.
Lenovo Thinkpad line has world-class keyboards that put the Macbook's to shame.
> laptop with as slick of a chassis and display.
display, they certainly have good ones, but most of them are not matte. As for the chassis, there's really nothing special in having a uniform grey chassis - it's a matter of taste rather than anything else.
> I've still yet to see another laptop that can chew through demanding workloads, remain snappy the whole time,
Recent AMD CPUs equipped PC, running Linux, fit that description - they are formidable machines with great performance for a variety of workloads and while you will hear the fan now and then, it's still much better than what you had a few years ago.
> I've still yet to see another laptop that has even passable handling of sleep states / other parts of power management.
That's the advantage of Apple where they control both hardware and software. It's hard to replicate, so yeah, they have an edge here.
> I've still yet to see another laptop with an even passable trackpad.
Never understood this comment, if you use keyboards instead for shortcuts the trackpad is hardly something you care about. this seems like a comment from Apple users who justify the trackpad as the key differentiator to not even consider anything else, even though the rest of the world has no problem not using Apple trackpads.
> I've still yet to see a laptop with a keyboard as nice as the current generation MacBooks.
Lenovo Thinkpad line has world-class keyboards that put the Macbook's to shame.
> laptop with as slick of a chassis and display.
display, they certainly have good ones, but most of them are not matte. As for the chassis, there's really nothing special in having a uniform grey chassis - it's a matter of taste rather than anything else.
> I've still yet to see another laptop that can chew through demanding workloads, remain snappy the whole time,
Recent AMD CPUs equipped PC, running Linux, fit that description - they are formidable machines with great performance for a variety of workloads and while you will hear the fan now and then, it's still much better than what you had a few years ago.
> and while you will hear the fan now and then
Never heard the fan on my M1 Pro in a year of ownership, and temperature is never uncomfortably high.
I'll pay double just to never hear a shitty laptop fan.
> but most of them are not matte
It is a matter of preference. Matte reduces contrast, saturation, and sharpness. I noticed Apple uses a higher quality anti-reflective coating than my other (cheap non-Apple branded) glossy desktop LCD. No distracting reflections on the laptop, but the desktop monitor looks like a mirror sometimes.
Never heard the fan on my M1 Pro in a year of ownership, and temperature is never uncomfortably high.
I'll pay double just to never hear a shitty laptop fan.
> but most of them are not matte
It is a matter of preference. Matte reduces contrast, saturation, and sharpness. I noticed Apple uses a higher quality anti-reflective coating than my other (cheap non-Apple branded) glossy desktop LCD. No distracting reflections on the laptop, but the desktop monitor looks like a mirror sometimes.
> Never understood this comment, if you use keyboards instead for shortcuts the trackpad is hardly something you care about. this seems like a comment from Apple users who justify the trackpad
Or as shockingly as it seems other people might have preferences which are different to yours and which are not somehow inherent inferior to yours.
> else, even though the rest of the world has no problem not using Apple trackpads.
If you go few years back same could've been said about appalling battery life, poor screen and build quality and a dozen other things. I had not problem using computers back then because I didn't know it could be better so just had to deal with it. Going back to something objectively inferior is not that easy (e.g. I almost always used an external mouse until the first retina MBP, I haven't really felt the need to since then except occasionally for gaming).
Or as shockingly as it seems other people might have preferences which are different to yours and which are not somehow inherent inferior to yours.
> else, even though the rest of the world has no problem not using Apple trackpads.
If you go few years back same could've been said about appalling battery life, poor screen and build quality and a dozen other things. I had not problem using computers back then because I didn't know it could be better so just had to deal with it. Going back to something objectively inferior is not that easy (e.g. I almost always used an external mouse until the first retina MBP, I haven't really felt the need to since then except occasionally for gaming).
It is a literal drop in the bucket.
It's like a mattress: you spend enough time on it that it's worth paying the money and moving on.
It's like a mattress: you spend enough time on it that it's worth paying the money and moving on.
> It is a literal drop in the bucket.
That's a very first world comment
That's a very first world comment
And in some first world countries that still means the 10% of your annual income.
A $2000 USD laptop would depreciate to nothing over five years so that is an expense of only $400 USD per year.
At a moderate $80k USD developer salary, the laptop costs only 0.5% of that. And this is the main tool you depend on to earn an income. For an underpaid junior developer earning $40k it's still only 1% of their income.
10% of an average developer salary is something like $8k per year. What laptop costs $8k per year? That's $40k after five years. Are you confusing a laptop with a new Mercedes or what?
Laptops are a business expense for a developer. This is how you need to think about it.
At a moderate $80k USD developer salary, the laptop costs only 0.5% of that. And this is the main tool you depend on to earn an income. For an underpaid junior developer earning $40k it's still only 1% of their income.
10% of an average developer salary is something like $8k per year. What laptop costs $8k per year? That's $40k after five years. Are you confusing a laptop with a new Mercedes or what?
Laptops are a business expense for a developer. This is how you need to think about it.
But the US is not the only first world country.
I live in one and my salary is a little less than 30k and I'm not a junior. My junior colleagues are at around 20k, so for them it's actually 10%.
I live in one and my salary is a little less than 30k and I'm not a junior. My junior colleagues are at around 20k, so for them it's actually 10%.
Yup. It’s not wrong though.
I don't think price is the main issue for most people in tech
For many people in tech price of the new MacBook is greater than monthly net salary.
+ 1. to get a usable MBP spec (i.e. at least 1TB disk and 24GB RAM) you’re looking at a 2,689€ price tag here in Germany. Not an issue if it’s company provided, but outside, this is more than two months worth of rent and a substantial part of a post tax income of a software engineer in Germany.
The equivalent Dell Precision laptop is about the same price. A laptop lasts for several years so thats only a few hundred euros per year.
This comment only applies to tech people working in the US, and mostly California.
Depends where you were born ig
You're are more than right about memory/storage upgrades but otherwise Macs seem to be priced very competitively considering what they offer.
Yes
Compared to what? An equivalent framework costs more in Canada when you factor in a student discount.
No ECC RAM: don't care. It also doesn't say not soldered on RAM and SSD which means it probably is.
> It also doesn't say not soldered on RAM and SSD which means it probably is.
> Just like the CPU, the LPDDR RAM is also soldered onto the motherboard [...]
> Another advantage of LPDDR RAM is its space-saving design, which creates room in the ultra compact chassis not only for the performant and quiet cooling system but also for 2x upgradeable M.2 SSDs [...]
> Just like the CPU, the LPDDR RAM is also soldered onto the motherboard [...]
> Another advantage of LPDDR RAM is its space-saving design, which creates room in the ultra compact chassis not only for the performant and quiet cooling system but also for 2x upgradeable M.2 SSDs [...]
What's it with HN's obsession with ECC RAM?
Also, doesn't DDR5 have built-in ECC?
Also, the website talks about M.2 for the SSD form factor. M.2 describes a physical connector standard. I would imagine that's enough to imply that it's not soldered SSDs.
Also, doesn't DDR5 have built-in ECC?
Also, the website talks about M.2 for the SSD form factor. M.2 describes a physical connector standard. I would imagine that's enough to imply that it's not soldered SSDs.
ECC RAM has its advantages but I agree it's not a must have for workstations. DDR5 has on-die ECC, which is basically controlled by the RAM itself and not everything around it like with regular ECC.
I bet you can only run Ubuntu and derivatives on this. As a die-hard Arch user Tuxedo is a bad choice.
Why do you say that? You can run whatever distribution you want, i run arch on a tuxedo laptop with no issue. Tuxedo laptops are not perfect but i find them a good choice for running Linux, whatever distribution you prefer.
What's not perfect about Tuxedo laptops? It's the first time I hear about these, and it seems they have a great spec/price ratio. This is definitely a brand I'd consider buying.
Microphone on mine was pretty bad, without exaggerating. The procedure for updating the BIOS was the worst I’ve ever seen. Maybe if you run TuxedoOS it can be done in a better way. I once left it at full charge on the shelf for a month (possibly two) and the battery inflated. Admittedly not a smart move by me, but still. Support is excellent, though, and I got a free replacement battery. If you can get a Dell with Linux I’d say that was a smoother experience for sure. That said, I don’t want to be all negative: It’s nice to buy a laptop and 100% know that all the hardware works with Linux. That’s worth a lot to me.
I would love Tuxedo to release firmware updates via fwupdmgr.
The current procedure works but is quite cumbersome indeed (copying file on a usb stick, boot on it and run a couple of command from it)
On mine (an aura 15 gen 2) the webcam and speakers are really not great. I don't mind as I knew that before buying it, so no disappointment.
On the plus side they really do support Linux, they provide a kernel module and control center app to control things like keyboard leds and power profiles, which does a good job. I find this quite good for a small company like Tuxedo.
I'm happy with my laptop and will consider Tuxedo again next time I need a computer, but I definitely advise to look at reviews beforehand.
On the plus side they really do support Linux, they provide a kernel module and control center app to control things like keyboard leds and power profiles, which does a good job. I find this quite good for a small company like Tuxedo.
I'm happy with my laptop and will consider Tuxedo again next time I need a computer, but I definitely advise to look at reviews beforehand.
Agreed, I've got an Aura 15 as well a few years ago, and I consider it a good buy price/performance wise.
I had originally ordered a different, slightly more expensive model, and had no trouble at all with customer service to send it back in exchange for the Aura and a refund, which impressed me very positively.
I run Debian on the laptop and had no trouble with it.
I had originally ordered a different, slightly more expensive model, and had no trouble at all with customer service to send it back in exchange for the Aura and a refund, which impressed me very positively.
I run Debian on the laptop and had no trouble with it.
What makes you think so? Have you had or heard of someone having issues like that before?
FFIW, you could probably install Arch (from a TTY, like in the old days :p) with the an Ubuntu kernel and any firmware that was loaded-in at runtime from the stock installation-- I'm not convinced it would be neccessary, but Linux is Linux and (most) differences between (most) distributions are minor enough that someone who knows how to troubleshoot this sort of thing could factor them out.
FFIW, you could probably install Arch (from a TTY, like in the old days :p) with the an Ubuntu kernel and any firmware that was loaded-in at runtime from the stock installation-- I'm not convinced it would be neccessary, but Linux is Linux and (most) differences between (most) distributions are minor enough that someone who knows how to troubleshoot this sort of thing could factor them out.
As a happy Infinity Book 4 Arch user without any issues so far. Where were your problems?
It's interesting to compare to the their Intel Infinity Book Pro Gen8 offering - that has a DDR5 SODIMMs, 99Wh battery, and is actually slightly lighter than the Pulse (also a brighter 400nit vs 300nit display), although you give up 1 M.2 SSD slot, it's 40% more expensive, and even with the much larger capacity runtime and performance is about the same or worse, since Intel.
Another good option for current-gen (7040) Ryzen ultra-portable Linux laptops is the Framework 13. A little pricier, 1 x M.2, but you get 2 x DDR5 SODIMMs, a 400nit+ display, and Framework has made good on their upgrade promises (this is their 4th drop-in replacement motherboard that runs in the same chassis and it seems like they're going to keep going). It has a very active Linux user community on their forums as well.