Hacker who stole Facebook source code comes clean(computerworld.com)
computerworld.com
Hacker who stole Facebook source code comes clean
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9226600/Facebook_hacker_comes_clean
42 comments
The users or their data aren't intellectual property. IP is commonly understood to be the things protected by copyright or patent law and some other things like utility models, trademarks and etc.
Customer lists are intellectual and business property. Cue "who's the customer" debate.
The real assets for Facebook, though, are its user relationships and the data stream this generates (where currency of data and interrelationships among it are key) by which it can generate advertising and other revenues through its true customer relationships -- the relations between FB and those entities paying cash on the barrelhead (or however the cool kids are conducting monetary transactions these days).
Brand identity, network effects, and a few other things also come into play.
Source code may weaken portions of the value e or expose windows of vulnerability. It's by no means the most valuable asset though.
The real assets for Facebook, though, are its user relationships and the data stream this generates (where currency of data and interrelationships among it are key) by which it can generate advertising and other revenues through its true customer relationships -- the relations between FB and those entities paying cash on the barrelhead (or however the cool kids are conducting monetary transactions these days).
Brand identity, network effects, and a few other things also come into play.
Source code may weaken portions of the value e or expose windows of vulnerability. It's by no means the most valuable asset though.
That list is omitting trade secrets, which certainly cover user data.
Data is an IP asset, just one that you cannot get a patent for, nor copyright or trademark protection, and so it must be kept private rather than disclosed.
You trademark your branding, patent your designs and processes, copyright your software and protect your data as a trade secret.
Data is an IP asset, just one that you cannot get a patent for, nor copyright or trademark protection, and so it must be kept private rather than disclosed.
You trademark your branding, patent your designs and processes, copyright your software and protect your data as a trade secret.
>arguably
I dunno, some people could certainly argue that their source code is their most valued and secret intellectual property, if going by their insurance claims alone.
I dunno, some people could certainly argue that their source code is their most valued and secret intellectual property, if going by their insurance claims alone.
It says "intellectual property" (read your own quotation). Data gathered from private entities is not (by definition) intellectual property.
'Also, this story kinda puts a whole new twist to Zuckerberg telling Wall Street about the "Hacker Way" ...'
Just a bit, given that it's fairly obvious that this guy wasn't being overly nefarious and doing what hackers are supposed to. With the way the Zuck harps on I'd have thought he'd have handed out a job and put him to work.
Just a bit, given that it's fairly obvious that this guy wasn't being overly nefarious and doing what hackers are supposed to. With the way the Zuck harps on I'd have thought he'd have handed out a job and put him to work.
It's funny how people think that source code is a company's most valuable asset.
Realistically, what is someone going to do with the Facebook source code? Put up a Facebook clone? First, they need the infrastructure set up that can actually host the code. Then they need to figure out how to deploy it. I bet there are enough gotchas in that process to make it nearly impossible to do without having a few people from the company there to help.
So if they do get it running, what then? You have a social networking site that can scale to hundreds of millions of users, but you have NO users. It isn't any better than Facebook, so why would anyone join?
Realistically, what is someone going to do with the Facebook source code? Put up a Facebook clone? First, they need the infrastructure set up that can actually host the code. Then they need to figure out how to deploy it. I bet there are enough gotchas in that process to make it nearly impossible to do without having a few people from the company there to help.
So if they do get it running, what then? You have a social networking site that can scale to hundreds of millions of users, but you have NO users. It isn't any better than Facebook, so why would anyone join?
They can figure out the exact algorithms being used to rank posts, make suggestions, etc., which could be interesting to a whole lot of people-- users, competitors, spammers...
Damage can definitely be done, but it's still not as big a deal as many people like to think it would be.
There have been enough stories about how Facebook and Google are misusing our information so they had to put a misleading spin on this story. I can only imagine that Facebook's source code changes frequently, so what is stole rapidly depreciates in value anyway.
There was some previous discussion on HN about this individual:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3604623
This comment in particular was very relevant:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3605343
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3604623
This comment in particular was very relevant:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3605343
"It is also worth mentioning that I had the source code
for just over three weeks with absolutely nothing to
prevent me from making copies and redistributing it,
this was more than enough time to have caused significant
damage to Facebook or to find a buyer, if that had ever
actually been my intention but quite clearly it was not,"
Mangham wrote.
Making a Facebook clone is about the last reason I can think of for buying Facebook's source. I'm guessing any buyer interested would be looking to use it to find exploits for snooping or worse.
The article even stated a reason for wanting to purchase the source code.
> source code would surely have been of interest to cybercriminals who attempt to use Facebook to perpetuate scams
> source code would surely have been of interest to cybercriminals who attempt to use Facebook to perpetuate scams
"Making a Facebook clone is about the last reason I can think of for buying Facebook's source." Probably not the first reason, but IMHO it's not that far fetched. The German Facebook clone has has allegedly used parts of Facebooks (client side) source. They have been sued and settled out of court if I remember correctly. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook,_Inc._v._StudiVZ_Ltd.)
Makes finding other security issues a lot easier if you have the source code. That could be very valuable to a certain segment of the population.
China to name one. Many other dictator run or communist countries as well I am sure.
"When you consider that the only thing that stood between Facebook and potential annihilation were my ethics"
I want to disagree with this. The source code leak wouldn't end Facebook. So what if there were hundreds of clones? The secrets that the code holds could be modified quickly enough to block intrusion.
To me the comparison is like saying KFC would be ruined if their "8 Secret Spices" got leaked.... guess what, they're not that secret any more and KFC is still running strong.
I want to disagree with this. The source code leak wouldn't end Facebook. So what if there were hundreds of clones? The secrets that the code holds could be modified quickly enough to block intrusion.
To me the comparison is like saying KFC would be ruined if their "8 Secret Spices" got leaked.... guess what, they're not that secret any more and KFC is still running strong.
Not to say anything of the business execution and infrastructure management, without either facebook would be no more than a bunch of php files on a server.
> He was also hoping that even when he got caught, Facebook would let him off the hook. That didn't happen.
It doesn't happen. Pretty naive thinking of his, he could have just read some hacker/cracker stories from the 90s/00s to know about that. Max Butler served (his first sentence for cracking, not the current one for cc) even though his exploit actually provided a patch and intentions were whitehat. Why learn it the hard way?
It doesn't happen. Pretty naive thinking of his, he could have just read some hacker/cracker stories from the 90s/00s to know about that. Max Butler served (his first sentence for cracking, not the current one for cc) even though his exploit actually provided a patch and intentions were whitehat. Why learn it the hard way?
I can't remember who it was, but there was the one guy who managed to get inside the code and deface a whole bunch of people's profiles. He was so impressive that Facebook hired the guy. This was in their early days.
Could be this one:
http://www.quora.com/How-did-Chris-Putnam-get-hired-at-Faceb...
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3605343
I manage Facebook's Whitehat program (https://www.facebook.com/whitehat). We have taken an incredibly open stance towards security researchers and welcome the contributions they make towards securing the internet. Our policy towards this research is documented quite succinctly:
"If you give us a reasonable time to respond to your report before making any information public and make a good faith effort to avoid privacy violations, destruction of data and interruption or degradation of our service during your research, we will not bring any lawsuit against you or ask law enforcement to investigate you."
His attempt to access data was outside our whitehat guidelines, had clear malicious intent, and included extensive and destructive efforts to remain undiscovered and anonymous. In addition, he made no effort to contact Facebook with his discoveries, and even denied involvement when initially questioned. His attempt to claim he intended responsible disclosure only after faced with criminal action is false and insulting to the community of responsible security researchers.
http://gmangham.blogspot.co.uk/
[5] I think the white hat bug bounty programme is a very good idea and that schemes like it are a very useful way for companies, especially the big ones to manage their large attack surfaces. I suspect some people are wondering why I didn’t use it to submit my findings, well the answer to that is that the bug bounty programme DID NOT EXIST when I was working on my audit, therefore it was not an option that I could take. I am willing to bet that it became a higher priority afterwards though.
It's pretty obvious that somebody here is lying, when did the bug bounty programme start?
I manage Facebook's Whitehat program (https://www.facebook.com/whitehat). We have taken an incredibly open stance towards security researchers and welcome the contributions they make towards securing the internet. Our policy towards this research is documented quite succinctly:
"If you give us a reasonable time to respond to your report before making any information public and make a good faith effort to avoid privacy violations, destruction of data and interruption or degradation of our service during your research, we will not bring any lawsuit against you or ask law enforcement to investigate you."
His attempt to access data was outside our whitehat guidelines, had clear malicious intent, and included extensive and destructive efforts to remain undiscovered and anonymous. In addition, he made no effort to contact Facebook with his discoveries, and even denied involvement when initially questioned. His attempt to claim he intended responsible disclosure only after faced with criminal action is false and insulting to the community of responsible security researchers.
http://gmangham.blogspot.co.uk/
[5] I think the white hat bug bounty programme is a very good idea and that schemes like it are a very useful way for companies, especially the big ones to manage their large attack surfaces. I suspect some people are wondering why I didn’t use it to submit my findings, well the answer to that is that the bug bounty programme DID NOT EXIST when I was working on my audit, therefore it was not an option that I could take. I am willing to bet that it became a higher priority afterwards though.
It's pretty obvious that somebody here is lying, when did the bug bounty programme start?
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150270651335766
That's a discussion of it from back in August. It started prior to that. And before that Facebook redid its existing responsible disclosure policy (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/knowledge-power-facebo... | From December 2010).
That's a discussion of it from back in August. It started prior to that. And before that Facebook redid its existing responsible disclosure policy (https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/knowledge-power-facebo... | From December 2010).
Looks like they had a quiet policy on it from mid 2010. It didn't seem to get much fanfare until about a year later when it became common public knowledge. I guess it's possible both are lying or neither of them.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-17...
"Glenn Mangham, 26, had earlier admitted infiltrating the social networking website between April and May 2011."
I just checked my old emails and found XSS vulnerabilities I reported to Facebook, under their responsible disclosure policy but prior to the introduction of the bug bounty program, from late 2010 / early 2011. His timeline doesn't match reality.
"Glenn Mangham, 26, had earlier admitted infiltrating the social networking website between April and May 2011."
I just checked my old emails and found XSS vulnerabilities I reported to Facebook, under their responsible disclosure policy but prior to the introduction of the bug bounty program, from late 2010 / early 2011. His timeline doesn't match reality.
Granted it looks like they had a policy but it's possible that not many people were aware of it. I don't know anyone that reads the lengthy ToS or policy documents of companies they deal with and they didn't seem to give it much promotion until after this incident. He does specifically say bug bounty programme and not the policy so I'm willing to give him that. If a company has a stance they do need to promote it and perhaps have stronger wording than we might not hang you out to dry.
Link to original for those who hate blogspam:
http://gmangham.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/facebook-hack-what-re...
http://gmangham.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/facebook-hack-what-re...
After watching the video the problem seems to be that while he is absolutely a white-hat, someone that Facebook should have had no problem with and would (I assume) loved to have spoken with about the vulnerability, they had absolutely no idea he was a white-hat and so they approached the situation under the assumption he was malicious in his actions, his response to being caught validated this assumption, at which point Facebook's only action was to alert authorities and then the consequent action is out of their hands. They can't turn someone over to the police and then retroactively say "it's okay nevermind", can they?
It's unfortunate but ultimately I don't see how this is anything other than an unfortunate turn of events that nobody can be held responsible for. Facebook didn't chase him because they didn't like him, it was because they believed he was a direct threat, isn't that what any business would do? When he says that he believes Facebook made the bug bounty program a higher priority after the situation with him just validates the idea that Facebook regret this but it was out of their control.
Seems the metropolitan police are at fault to his further gripes.
It's unfortunate but ultimately I don't see how this is anything other than an unfortunate turn of events that nobody can be held responsible for. Facebook didn't chase him because they didn't like him, it was because they believed he was a direct threat, isn't that what any business would do? When he says that he believes Facebook made the bug bounty program a higher priority after the situation with him just validates the idea that Facebook regret this but it was out of their control.
Seems the metropolitan police are at fault to his further gripes.
For a company that claims to be all about hacker culture (regardless of whether this was white/black/grey hat), I am surprised that Facebook is pressing charges rather than offering to hire this guy.
It is not Facebook that decides whether or not a criminal offense is prosecuted, but the DA. The victim actually has no say in the matter.
Not in this instance, as the court case wasn't in the US, but in London.
In the UK the Crown Prosecution Service decides whether to prosecute, and that involves 'any views expressed by the victim' [1]. If the victim has withdrawn their complaint, then the CPS will decide whether prosecuting is in 'the public interest'.
1) http://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/de...
In the UK the Crown Prosecution Service decides whether to prosecute, and that involves 'any views expressed by the victim' [1]. If the victim has withdrawn their complaint, then the CPS will decide whether prosecuting is in 'the public interest'.
1) http://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/reporting_a_crime/de...
It might be more accurate to say that the DA has the final say, but the victim often influences the DA's decision. This is particularly true with a victim like Facebook -- remember that the DA often holds an elected position.
Even if it were in the hands of the DA, Facebook is the one who reported it...they could simply choose not to report it.
Yeah... he stashed a copy.
This article is so interesting, but mostly because I feel that there's something missing with it.
Mangham seems like there is some reason for which he shouldn't be in trouble at all, but it's never revealed -- or maybe there isn't any real reason, and he's just delusional? I don't know.
It starts off bad enough -- "Strictly speaking what I did broke the law because at the time and subsequently it was not authorized," -- So wait. It wasn't EVERY authorized? Or is he implying that sometime before the time he actually stole the source it had been authorized? Was he hired to do this work at some time, then let go afterward, only to keep trying? It's confusing without context (to me at least).
Then he realizes that FB is on his tail and he "panicked because I knew how bad it looked without sufficient context." What is the context? He seems to imply that there is some reason for which he shouldn't be thrown in jail, but never seems to get at exactly what it is.
There's something weird here, and practically every statement he makes hints at some deeper cause, but always falls short of actually revealing what it is.
Mangham seems like there is some reason for which he shouldn't be in trouble at all, but it's never revealed -- or maybe there isn't any real reason, and he's just delusional? I don't know.
It starts off bad enough -- "Strictly speaking what I did broke the law because at the time and subsequently it was not authorized," -- So wait. It wasn't EVERY authorized? Or is he implying that sometime before the time he actually stole the source it had been authorized? Was he hired to do this work at some time, then let go afterward, only to keep trying? It's confusing without context (to me at least).
Then he realizes that FB is on his tail and he "panicked because I knew how bad it looked without sufficient context." What is the context? He seems to imply that there is some reason for which he shouldn't be thrown in jail, but never seems to get at exactly what it is.
There's something weird here, and practically every statement he makes hints at some deeper cause, but always falls short of actually revealing what it is.
Nothing seemed missing to me.
I think he thought that Zuckerberg/Facebook would emphasize with what it's like to be a white hat hacker, be very curious, challenge yourself and then let him off the hook. Other companies have been known to hire hackers after getting caught.
One thing that didn't really add up is he never turned himself in after committing the crime. He waited 3 weeks? That places doubt on his intentions. Maybe he just freaked out.
I think he thought that Zuckerberg/Facebook would emphasize with what it's like to be a white hat hacker, be very curious, challenge yourself and then let him off the hook. Other companies have been known to hire hackers after getting caught.
One thing that didn't really add up is he never turned himself in after committing the crime. He waited 3 weeks? That places doubt on his intentions. Maybe he just freaked out.
Do white-hat hackers normally turn themselves in?
(also, I think you meant empathize)
(also, I think you meant empathize)
(Note: this post represents my own opinions, not anyone else's)
No, but they normally report the vulnerabilities they find.
I participate in a lot of responsible disclosure programs (Google, Facebook, Mozilla, Dropbox, Twitter, Etsy, etc). All of those programs dictate that you report the security vulnerabilities you find, and that you not abuse them.
What was described in the blog post sounds a lot like real security audits that I've seen done. However, the difference is that those audits are done by professional security researchers who have been hired by the company for that purpose. If you're an outside security researcher you have to abide by a very different set of standards. Common sense would argue those standards include abiding by the company's responsible disclosure policy.
No, but they normally report the vulnerabilities they find.
I participate in a lot of responsible disclosure programs (Google, Facebook, Mozilla, Dropbox, Twitter, Etsy, etc). All of those programs dictate that you report the security vulnerabilities you find, and that you not abuse them.
What was described in the blog post sounds a lot like real security audits that I've seen done. However, the difference is that those audits are done by professional security researchers who have been hired by the company for that purpose. If you're an outside security researcher you have to abide by a very different set of standards. Common sense would argue those standards include abiding by the company's responsible disclosure policy.
it's Kafkaesque! as in the Trial.
Err... no! The company most valued property would be the data they have and sell. (I know this kind of comment will attract all kind of pedantry around the word "intellectual property", but let's agree on something: If they can sell your data, it's their property.)
I agree that source code exposure is a security threat, but it seems to me that we have yet another case of a journalist looking for a scoop by using big words.
Also, this story kinda puts a whole new twist to Zuckerberg telling Wall Street about the "Hacker Way" ...