Researchers find signs of intelligence among jumping spiders(knowablemagazine.org)
knowablemagazine.org
Researchers find signs of intelligence among jumping spiders
https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/mind/2021/are-spiders-intelligent
196 comments
As soon as it mentioned intelligent spiders I was thinking "Children of Time" by Adrian Tchaikovsky https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25499718-children-of-tim...
> The experiment doesn’t really prove that spiders can’t count
There is very easy to prove spiders can count. They can tell bigger object from smaller, so they have some concept of measure and comparison. They can tell 10 is bigger than 2 and so on.
The rest is only how precisely they can count.
There is very easy to prove spiders can count. They can tell bigger object from smaller, so they have some concept of measure and comparison. They can tell 10 is bigger than 2 and so on.
The rest is only how precisely they can count.
Douglas Adams was right, the mice are experimenting on us
The first time I ran into one of these cute little jumping spiders was in a backyard while I was reading a book. I felt something on my chair and moved and I saw something jump across to the small table next to me. I noticed that it was a spider. I didn't know spiders could jump like that. I was very surprised when it turned around and looked at me. Scrutinizing me. It literally was moving its head looking at me trying to figure out what had disturbed it. After that my girlfriend at the time joked that he was my little friend.
previously: science fiction author Peter Watts' 2009 post musing about spider intelligence vs Turing machines:
https://rifters.com/real/2009/01/iterating-towards-bethlehem...
> Here's the thumbnail sketch: we have here a spider who eats other spiders, who changes her foraging strategy on the fly, who resorts to trial and error techniques to lure prey into range. She will brave a full frontal assault against prey carrying an egg sac, but sneak up upon an unencumbered target of the same species. Many insects and arachnids are known for fairly complex behaviors (bumblebees are the proletarian's archetype; Sphex wasps are the cool grad-school example), but those behaviors are hardwired and inflexible. Portia here is not so rote: Portia improvises.
> But it's not just this flexible behavioral repertoire that's so amazing. It's not the fact that somehow, this dumb little spider with its crude compound optics has visual acuity to rival a cat's (even though a cat's got orders of magnitude more neurons in one retina than our spider has in her whole damn head). It's not even the fact that this little beast can figure out a maze which entails recognizing prey, then figuring out an approach path along which that prey is not visible (i.e., the spider can't just keep her eyes on the ball: she has to develop and remember a search image), then follow her best-laid plans by memory including recognizing when she's made a wrong turn and retracing her steps, all the while out of sight of her target. No, the really amazing thing is how she does all this with a measly 600,000 neurons— how she pulls off cognitive feats that would challenge a mammal with seventy million or more.
> She does it like a Turing Machine, one laborious step at a time. She does it like a Sinclair ZX-80: running one part of the system then another, because she doesn't have the circuitry to run both at once. She does it all sequentially, by timesharing.
If you like this kind of thing, check out Watts' novel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
https://rifters.com/real/2009/01/iterating-towards-bethlehem...
> Here's the thumbnail sketch: we have here a spider who eats other spiders, who changes her foraging strategy on the fly, who resorts to trial and error techniques to lure prey into range. She will brave a full frontal assault against prey carrying an egg sac, but sneak up upon an unencumbered target of the same species. Many insects and arachnids are known for fairly complex behaviors (bumblebees are the proletarian's archetype; Sphex wasps are the cool grad-school example), but those behaviors are hardwired and inflexible. Portia here is not so rote: Portia improvises.
> But it's not just this flexible behavioral repertoire that's so amazing. It's not the fact that somehow, this dumb little spider with its crude compound optics has visual acuity to rival a cat's (even though a cat's got orders of magnitude more neurons in one retina than our spider has in her whole damn head). It's not even the fact that this little beast can figure out a maze which entails recognizing prey, then figuring out an approach path along which that prey is not visible (i.e., the spider can't just keep her eyes on the ball: she has to develop and remember a search image), then follow her best-laid plans by memory including recognizing when she's made a wrong turn and retracing her steps, all the while out of sight of her target. No, the really amazing thing is how she does all this with a measly 600,000 neurons— how she pulls off cognitive feats that would challenge a mammal with seventy million or more.
> She does it like a Turing Machine, one laborious step at a time. She does it like a Sinclair ZX-80: running one part of the system then another, because she doesn't have the circuitry to run both at once. She does it all sequentially, by timesharing.
If you like this kind of thing, check out Watts' novel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
Also see Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky for more smart-spider science fiction
I also immediately think of this book. Also the main character of the jumping spider species in the book is called Portia, likely refer to the same species in the article.
Yep, origin of the name.
Do checkout Blindsight because is great, but the Portia reference is actually from the sequel Echopraxia (a good book, but inferior to Blindsight; I mostly remember it for the Portia reference).
Blindsight. One of the most interesting sci-fi stories I found impossible to get into and enjoy due to the author's dense and obtuse prose. I have a squirrel brain, so maybe it's just me.
I just wish one day someone will be able to turn it in a video game or a movie so I can understand how alien those aliens really are.
I just wish one day someone will be able to turn it in a video game or a movie so I can understand how alien those aliens really are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkR2hnXR0SM
This is notably also adored by Watts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7_1J9clAA
In case you want to fall down into the rabbit hole then https://blindsight.space
Now I just wish that some serious producer like Nolan would get a hint.
This is notably also adored by Watts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW7_1J9clAA
In case you want to fall down into the rabbit hole then https://blindsight.space
Now I just wish that some serious producer like Nolan would get a hint.
It is very much a preference thing. I do like Watt's prose quite a bit.
> Echopraxia (a good book, but inferior to Blindsight
It's been half-read on my nightstand for months now because it just didn't interest me very much halfway through. Yet I read the first one twice.
It's been half-read on my nightstand for months now because it just didn't interest me very much halfway through. Yet I read the first one twice.
> Blindsight
> It carries a crew of five cutting-edge transhuman hyper-specialists, of whom one is a genetically reincarnated vampire who acts as the nominal mission commander.
Space vampire eh?
> It carries a crew of five cutting-edge transhuman hyper-specialists, of whom one is a genetically reincarnated vampire who acts as the nominal mission commander.
Space vampire eh?
Yes. Yet it is diamond-hard sci-fi.
One of the craziest things to me when looking at a jumping spider is the unbelievable size and mass difference between us. An 80kg person is ~6,000,000x heavier than the average jumping spider. Whereas a blue whale is only like 2,000-3,000x heavier than that 80kg person (if I'm doing my math right).
They are obviously tiny, but I wouldn't have imagined what titans we must be from their perspective.
They are obviously tiny, but I wouldn't have imagined what titans we must be from their perspective.
A thought I've sometimes had is that if we had evolved to be as tiny as something like these spiders, but still at our current level of intelligence and society, chimps or elephants or whales would still be almost insurmountable threats to us even with today's level of technology.
It'd take entire nations years of effort to build a gun or rocket that could even hurt something that much bigger than us.
It'd take entire nations years of effort to build a gun or rocket that could even hurt something that much bigger than us.
Which is why animals at that scale develop techniques of very rapid flight instead of brute fight. That and poison. We would probably pour the resources into genetic engineering and biological warfare.
I wonder if anyone has calculated a range of body sizes which maximise intelligence and the ability to exploit resources of their planet.
Could a spider-sized human intelligence build a rocket to go to the moon? Would it have been easier to develop our civilization if we had been as large as a whale?
Maybe the universe is teeming with life a little too large or too small to build an ultra-technologic culture, or space travel. Imagine how long it would have taken us just to explore the Earth if we had been spider-sized, with spider legs and spider eyes.
Could a spider-sized human intelligence build a rocket to go to the moon? Would it have been easier to develop our civilization if we had been as large as a whale?
Maybe the universe is teeming with life a little too large or too small to build an ultra-technologic culture, or space travel. Imagine how long it would have taken us just to explore the Earth if we had been spider-sized, with spider legs and spider eyes.
> I wonder if anyone has calculated a range of body sizes which maximise intelligence and the ability to exploit resources of their planet.
I don't think we understand intelligence well enough even on Earth to do something like that. For example, these spiders seem to have certain cognitive capacities beyond what a hippopotamus can do, even though the hippopotamus is obviously much larger. Even in a single genera, the intelligence of mammals or even just apes doesn't seem to scale with size or brain size.
There did seem to be some correlation between intelligence and the ratio of brain size to body size, but even that is not well established, and it is not clearly evident why it would matter. And, as others are pointing out, many studies of animal intelligence are actually deeply flawed, so perhaps we have just been measuring very wrongly.
I don't think we understand intelligence well enough even on Earth to do something like that. For example, these spiders seem to have certain cognitive capacities beyond what a hippopotamus can do, even though the hippopotamus is obviously much larger. Even in a single genera, the intelligence of mammals or even just apes doesn't seem to scale with size or brain size.
There did seem to be some correlation between intelligence and the ratio of brain size to body size, but even that is not well established, and it is not clearly evident why it would matter. And, as others are pointing out, many studies of animal intelligence are actually deeply flawed, so perhaps we have just been measuring very wrongly.
> Could a spider-sized human intelligence build a rocket to go to the moon?
I suspect without doing the maths that their rockets would still be similar in size to ours, because of the fuel required to achieve escape velocity, and the good old rocket equation. But they would certainly be able to fit a lot more spidernauts in.
I suspect without doing the maths that their rockets would still be similar in size to ours, because of the fuel required to achieve escape velocity, and the good old rocket equation. But they would certainly be able to fit a lot more spidernauts in.
They also could provide insurmountable opportunity. You'd have a huge advantage against enemies if you could develop some kind of mutualism with the beasts of nature.
Imagine living on top of an elephant. I guess you would attend to its skin and health, in exchange for a great defensive position, free transport, the potential to live off dying cells and moisture, etc.
Fast forward a very long time, and you might have humans controlling all the animals of the wild, which would have developed their own ways of survival, territory and rivalries. Animals which lack this 'army' of humans tending to them would die out. Wouldn't be so different to now...
Imagine living on top of an elephant. I guess you would attend to its skin and health, in exchange for a great defensive position, free transport, the potential to live off dying cells and moisture, etc.
Fast forward a very long time, and you might have humans controlling all the animals of the wild, which would have developed their own ways of survival, territory and rivalries. Animals which lack this 'army' of humans tending to them would die out. Wouldn't be so different to now...
I’d play that game.
"You have your orders, colonel. Launch the nukes."
"Sir. I will follow any legal order, but I will not countenance the destruction of the entire shrub."
"Sir. I will follow any legal order, but I will not countenance the destruction of the entire shrub."
Not clear, we might have ended up building industrial machines of roughly the same size. Elephants are soft compared to metal no matter how tiny the driver.
Sure, but the tinier the worker, the more effort you need to build a machine of a certain size. Even today, most construction of any kind has significant manual work components. We are pretty good at building things hundreds of times bigger than ourselves, but I'm not sure we would be great at building something a million times bigger than a human. Of course this is not directly comparable, since we are often limited by materials science before raw manpower if attempting something like this; a 2km tall skyscraper is fundamentally harder to build than a 20m one regardless of the size of your workforce.
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I had a pet jumping spider that came to me one day. She was magical. She used to make artistic scribbles in the (sometimes) foggy glass of her terrarium. The she escaped one day (I always left a little crack open at the bottom of her home to give her the option of leaving) and I never saw her since.
Anyone who's watched jumpers hunt a while can see they're really clever little spiders. Always love finding them outside, they're little muppet spiders.
...beautiful science: people spending a career on things like "how to surprise a [spider-eating, jumping] spider"
Agreed. I genuinely find this so much more meaningful than working on the next software buzz to help companies that are too big make even more money by tracking users even more.
apropos of nothing to do with leaping arachnids -- if you do delight in the absurdity of specialties academics can find themselves in, check out the short novel Irregular Portuguese Verbs by Alexander McCall Smith
I had a pet jumper in my first apartment. He would follow me and my wife from room to room, wave at us, and sit by the sink when he was thirsty. We gave him water and called him Steve.
There's a reasonable pet trade for them. I never had the heart to put one in a box though.
The most interesting interaction I had was watching one hunt a fly. The fly landed, and it crawled down on the side of the board the fly was on, out of sight. It emerged behind the fly, then snuck up on it, similar to how a cat does (move, pause, move, pause). Then, when it attacked, it didn't jump at the fly, but jumped up in the air where the fly would be. It grabbed onto the flys back, then rotated, so the spider landed on its back, so the flys legs would be straight up, so it couldn't try to crawl away. It bit its neck area, waited a bit, then dragged it away. Really amazing, especially considering the fly was about the same size as the spider's body.
The most interesting interaction I had was watching one hunt a fly. The fly landed, and it crawled down on the side of the board the fly was on, out of sight. It emerged behind the fly, then snuck up on it, similar to how a cat does (move, pause, move, pause). Then, when it attacked, it didn't jump at the fly, but jumped up in the air where the fly would be. It grabbed onto the flys back, then rotated, so the spider landed on its back, so the flys legs would be straight up, so it couldn't try to crawl away. It bit its neck area, waited a bit, then dragged it away. Really amazing, especially considering the fly was about the same size as the spider's body.
I had a similar experience with one many years ago, but with the differences that it happened on a chair, and another fly tried to save his "buddy", which I had never seen before. It was like watchin' somethin' from the Nature channel unfold right there in "real life" in front of me. Smartest little spiders I know of. Amazing little critters for sure.
Jumping spiders have definitely helped me get over arachnophobia a bit. They're just too cute to be afraid of.
https://www.youtube.com/@lucasthespider Lucas the Spider is the cutest.
How so?
They are small like another poster mentioned, but their big primary eyes and their behavior makes them seem a lot less threatening than other spiders as well. For example, if they notice you they tend to reposition themselves to get a better look at what you are. They are also pretty rare to find indoors, which means you're not likely to be surprised by them while brushing your teeth or taking a shower.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apWeH2f_uao
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apWeH2f_uao
They're extremely small, the photo in the article is misleading: the prose explains they're ~1 mm in size
If you find macro shots of their faces too they kinda look like dogs with a few extra eyes
The only time I've seen one, that I know, it was around 6mm. When it jumped, so did I!
They're from 1 to 2.5 cm in size, at least the ones in the article are - Portia.
They can take down prey much larger than themselves including small crickets and worms. They’re cool little creatures.
In case anyone ever finds this via Google, how much water? How did you serve it? A saucer/plate?
I put a drop of water on the counter. That was plenty for him.
Thanks!
They also love sugar water, and if you give it to them they will love you even more.
The misunderstood spider meme from 2013 comes to mind. Gosh, is that long ago: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/misunderstood-spider
I stopped bothering cellar spiders I found in my house after one morning a fly woke me up and proceeded to land on a spiderweb behind the radiator. They are welcome guests now.
The larger ones though I politely but firmly invite to leave.
The larger ones though I politely but firmly invite to leave.
The moment you lock eyes with one of these you can tell they are thinking a bunch. There’s a certain recognition that humans can sense through eye connection that is quite instinctual
I saw a bold jumper [1] a few months ago and it was truly beautiful. It was quite large, black and white, and had iridescent mouthparts. It really felt like coming across a shiny Pokemon IRL.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidippus_audax
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidippus_audax
Yeah, these guys are cool! Found one on a cucumber in my garden last year.
https://scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/31236...
https://scontent-lax3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/31236...
They are fairly common in the SF Bay Area.
Not only are they cute (the have a fuzzy look about them) but they tend to eat the stuff we hate. I tend to have one or two in my back yard almost every summer.
I could do with out the black widows
Not only are they cute (the have a fuzzy look about them) but they tend to eat the stuff we hate. I tend to have one or two in my back yard almost every summer.
I could do with out the black widows
Just had to bop a black widow in my office a couple months back. I’ve been check the spot she had set up in every few days since, I will for years I bet.
I played Grounded and I swear that game fucked me up.
I played Grounded and I swear that game fucked me up.
Next time you see a jumping spider, interact with it. Try to coax it to you with slow repetitive movements. Get close to it. Tap and wiggle your fingers gently. You'll likely find that they come to you. They seem to be curious on a different level than any other spider that I've interacted with (which are all garden-variety spiders in north america). They do tend to freak out if you try to take their picture with a multi-lens phone camera...presumably because it looks like a set of robot spider eyes looking at them.
They're one of the only insects that show hunting behavior, as in pattern recognition and path planning [1], with brains so large that their esophagus has to go through it, to fit, with one of the largest brain to body rations of any animal. And, they dance [2]!
Easily my favorite little critter.
1. https://roundglasssustain.com/species/portia-spiders
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qkzwG2lLPc
Easily my favorite little critter.
1. https://roundglasssustain.com/species/portia-spiders
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qkzwG2lLPc
> They're one of the only insects
They're not insects at all. They're spiders.
Edit: Here's an evolutionary tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropod#Evolutionary_history.... Insects are a group under "Hexapods", and are more closely related to crabs, lobsters, shrimp, centipedes, and millipedes (none of which are insects) than they are to spiders, which are under "Chelicerates".
They're not insects at all. They're spiders.
Edit: Here's an evolutionary tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropod#Evolutionary_history.... Insects are a group under "Hexapods", and are more closely related to crabs, lobsters, shrimp, centipedes, and millipedes (none of which are insects) than they are to spiders, which are under "Chelicerates".
I’m pretty sure my esophagus goes through my brain too… the way I think about food…
Edit: I can also jump!
Edit: I can also jump!
Yes, but does your esophagus get pulled out every time you shed? I think not!
And, you have simple fixed zoom balls for eyes, where they have muscles that point little telescopes [3], that pivot at the eye hole, each with two lenses, allowing control of focus and magnification.
3. https://www.wired.com/2014/04/spider-vision-made-clear/
And, you have simple fixed zoom balls for eyes, where they have muscles that point little telescopes [3], that pivot at the eye hole, each with two lenses, allowing control of focus and magnification.
3. https://www.wired.com/2014/04/spider-vision-made-clear/
Some additional True Facts about jumping spiders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxM_cag99nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxM_cag99nU
“He must mesmerize… or die!”
Crazy video thanks for that.
Crazy video thanks for that.
The spiders are reacting the the infrared light used to focus the phone camera.
Jumping spiders are quite common here in Singapore, and occasionally one will wander across my monitor while I'm working. If I move the mouse cursor in a circle around it, it will turn and follow the cursor. Amazing little things. Generally, I have an irrational fear of spiders, but for some reason these little guys get a pass from me. They're fascinating.
They are here in Scotland too, you’ll spot them mainly on windowsills. It’s one of the few creepy crawlies that actually seem to look directly at you.
Oh, the anthropocentrism is strong here grasping at straws. It may also be just a genetically-imprinted fixed action pattern lacking strategic flexibility.
Scientists have been experimenting with portia spiders for a while and the surprising thing is specifically that a lot of their planning behavior does not seem to be hardwired. They can genuinely adopt to new preys and new environments and show learning behavior.
I think the scientific consensus for cognition and brain size has been for a long time that the size matters much less than we previously thought. For instance, ravens/crows show remarkable problem solving skills and intelligence on par with much larger animals and their brains are extremely small.
Given how much meat we as a society consume, and how we treat animals generally, it makes sense that we'd collectively accept and yearn for a narrative that animals are dumb. I think science is steadily showing that this is not really the case.
Given how much meat we as a society consume, and how we treat animals generally, it makes sense that we'd collectively accept and yearn for a narrative that animals are dumb. I think science is steadily showing that this is not really the case.
Anyone who's ever interacted with any kind of animal knows how they are intelligent.
The lack of science on this matter is not the reason we still consume meat and more science won't change anything.
We've always found ways to justify/accept our need for meat and wel'll continue doing this as long as science doesn't find an equally nutritious alternative that can be produced at scale.
The lack of science on this matter is not the reason we still consume meat and more science won't change anything.
We've always found ways to justify/accept our need for meat and wel'll continue doing this as long as science doesn't find an equally nutritious alternative that can be produced at scale.
> Anyone who's ever interacted with any kind of animal knows how they are intelligent.
Anyone who's ever had backyard chickens knows they are not intelligent. Nature gave them a brain to keep the spinal cord from fraying.
Anyone who's ever had backyard chickens knows they are not intelligent. Nature gave them a brain to keep the spinal cord from fraying.
I'm stealing that line!
But chickens have a social order, keepers say, and more complex behaviour than a naive city slicker might expect. They may not be grandmasters, but they aren't completely stupid.
But chickens have a social order, keepers say, and more complex behaviour than a naive city slicker might expect. They may not be grandmasters, but they aren't completely stupid.
That line also applies to some management types and children of the rich and powerful.
In the words of Werner Herzog:
https://youtu.be/QhMo4WlBmGM?si=9rwaeU6DeaBPTQBN
https://youtu.be/QhMo4WlBmGM?si=9rwaeU6DeaBPTQBN
I’m not making any kind of statement as to why we consume meat or whether we should, just making an observation
Sorry, I wasn't really arguing against you. It's just that every time an article like this comes out everyone act likes it's a step towards abandoning meat. Unfortunately that's not so easy.
It is perfectly possible to accept that we are meat-eating apex predators and still be in awe and respect of the intelligence of other life forms.
I do not know where it is available, but there is a new documentary TV series: "A Real Bug's Life".
Its first episode, "The Big City", includes many very beautiful filmed sequences with jumping spiders.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt29520604/?ref_=ttep_ep1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13919000/?ref_=tt_ov_inf
Its first episode, "The Big City", includes many very beautiful filmed sequences with jumping spiders.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt29520604/?ref_=ttep_ep1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13919000/?ref_=tt_ov_inf
Spiders have always had some level of intelligence. Definitely not up there with mammals.
Spiders react to different environmental factors and have to make decisions.
Spiders react to different environmental factors and have to make decisions.
Peacock spider's (a jumping spider) mating dance is one of my all time fav's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxM_cag99nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxM_cag99nU
I was bitten by a jumping spider when I was a child. I used to play with them, never had a problem and then one day for no reason, I got bitten.
I was bitten by a cat. Many, many times.
I used to play with a cat as a child, never had a problem, and then one day, for no reason, I got bitten.
And it happened again and again!
No complaints, would grow up with a cat again.
I used to play with a cat as a child, never had a problem, and then one day, for no reason, I got bitten.
And it happened again and again!
No complaints, would grow up with a cat again.
Me too but it was only a nibble.
Animal intelligence will continue to be surprising for as long as animal exploitation remains mainstream.
[deleted]
My fears are coming true ...
I forget who said this or exactly what they said, but someone has pointed out that the more research humans conduct the more we find that animals and even plants are more complex, more intelligent and more sophisticated than we thought. It is worth keeping this in mind the next time someone tells you a small creature (perhaps a crustacean) cannot feel or think or do something that would mean we ought to be less cruel towards them.
You can argue for animal intelligence but they can't argue for yours.
Humans are also found to be more complex/intelligent/sophisticated than was thought, given AI goalpost moving.
Humans are also found to be more complex/intelligent/sophisticated than was thought, given AI goalpost moving.
Sorry, too harsh, I should have said: "We can argue for animal intelligence but they can't argue for ours.
That's great, but if I ever see a jumping spider in my house then I will not hesitate to murder it in cold blood.
I think you are trying to come off as like, cute or funny or ironic or something. But I think this attitude is impoverished. Unless you live in a place that has spiders which are particularly dangerous to humans or pets, most spiders are just another little bug that has no interest in harming you.
Over the last ten years I went from smashing every bug I saw in my house to taking a moment to carefully scoop it up with paper or a cup and then take it outside. Most bugs (at least in my area) are safe to handle. Instead of seeing them as a threat to be destroyed, I recognize that they are innocent creatures that have no desire to mess with me, and I can serve as a steward to move them somewhere more acceptable.
There are some exceptions - pest creatures which nest in your walls or go after your food which must be exterminated to ensure a safe living environment for your home - but most often I just find little bugs trying to do their own thing, and I take a moment to provide them a little care so we don't get in each other's way.
I think this mindset helps me be more respectful of all living creatures, rather than presuming I have the right to kill those which I dislike.
Over the last ten years I went from smashing every bug I saw in my house to taking a moment to carefully scoop it up with paper or a cup and then take it outside. Most bugs (at least in my area) are safe to handle. Instead of seeing them as a threat to be destroyed, I recognize that they are innocent creatures that have no desire to mess with me, and I can serve as a steward to move them somewhere more acceptable.
There are some exceptions - pest creatures which nest in your walls or go after your food which must be exterminated to ensure a safe living environment for your home - but most often I just find little bugs trying to do their own thing, and I take a moment to provide them a little care so we don't get in each other's way.
I think this mindset helps me be more respectful of all living creatures, rather than presuming I have the right to kill those which I dislike.
I'm with you, except for Pantry Moths. After having to throw away basically my whole food storage, every Pantry Moth is now killed on sight, no exception, no mercy. I think they gave me a mild form of PTSD (half joking).
But yeah, other bugs get carried away. And I also don't touch cobwebs. I'm actually really scared of spiders, but I know that they'll not hurt me and provide kind of a service, so I'm fine if they hang around.
Wasps are another exception. Immediate kill, no patience for these fuckers. Bees are fine, of course, way less aggressive. I know that wasps are useful as well, but I don't feel like handling them when they decide to visit my apartment.
But yeah, other bugs get carried away. And I also don't touch cobwebs. I'm actually really scared of spiders, but I know that they'll not hurt me and provide kind of a service, so I'm fine if they hang around.
Wasps are another exception. Immediate kill, no patience for these fuckers. Bees are fine, of course, way less aggressive. I know that wasps are useful as well, but I don't feel like handling them when they decide to visit my apartment.
That's so sad. I'm pretty militantly anti-spider but jumping spiders, despite seeming like they were sent from hell to terrify us, are just little furry big-eyed arthro-bros
They even kill insects for us
They eat the other creatures that only come out at night.. Which do you prefer?
When I learned that they compete for territory with centipedes I decided to stop killing them. I'd much rather share my home with a tiny 8-legged cat than with a venomous centipede.
Then why do our genetic memories compel us to be terrified of them
How do you know it's genetic memory and not simply popular attitudes from childhood? I know when I was a kid people generally viewed spiders as a threat and so I adopted this attitude. It was only as an adult that I learned this is basically folklore and in my area not based on fact. But I don't think that's genetic, I think it is cultural. I would be curious to see what anthropologists have discovered about this.
I think you're conflating your own phobia up with something more fundamental.
I've certainly never found them even a little bit frightening. I've definitely felt like "someone's home" but it's probably the big eyes bias.
I've certainly never found them even a little bit frightening. I've definitely felt like "someone's home" but it's probably the big eyes bias.
I would not characterize it as phobia, so much as I find them disgusting for some reason, dirty and unclean.
It's just your conditioning. If you look at it from another angle you can see that they are actually harmless and clean. And even playful amd cute if you goof around with them a bit.
Even if we are predisposed to be fearful of spiders, so what? Not all spiders are the same, and jumping spiders are certainly 100% harmless to humans of all sizes. Why not work on promoting that experience and rationality override any (often mistaken) primal urges that we have?
Why did we gain those instincts in the first place. What is nature trying to warn us
Should we also kill all the other human-tribes then?
I can’t believe how frequently I have to say this to people: instinct is far from reason.
I can’t believe how frequently I have to say this to people: instinct is far from reason.
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If you don't know anything about any wild berries, beyond some are poisonous, it might be a safe bet to never eat any of them.
If you know something about berries, like this species is definitely poisonous, and this species is definitely safe, and this species you don't know anything about, then it is perfectly safe to avoid the first and third and indulge in the second.
If you know something about berries, like this species is definitely poisonous, and this species is definitely safe, and this species you don't know anything about, then it is perfectly safe to avoid the first and third and indulge in the second.
May be because of their unpredictability owing to their jumpiness? That seems very reasonable since humans do instinctually stay away from unpredictable organisms/animals in nature. That unpredictability doesn’t always have to correlate with the real dangerousness of those creatures.
That they bite, a very few of them are significantly venomous, and no matter how easy their webs are to find, they don't make good snacks.
Jumping spiders trigger significantly less of that response than other types of spiders. Are you sure you know what a jumping spider looks like?
You say "compel" like you have no choice. Our instincts push us to do all kinds of irrational things. Try not to do them.
I felt a compulsion to respond snarkily to this comment, but I believe I've pretty successfully avoided doing so
When you show images of a spider to a six month old baby their pupils expand, which is apparently a pretty reliable physiological indicator of fear.
https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-...
https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-...
Exposure therapy can help squashing irrational fears, which is what I would suggest in the case of small creatures triggering a fear response.
I'm unbelievably scared of syringes and especially giving blood samples. To the point where I get hot and feel sick when people around me talk about it.
Don't even want to imagine what exposure therapy would be like for this :D
Don't even want to imagine what exposure therapy would be like for this :D
Completely understandable. But just know it can be overcome, albeit gradually. You'll start small and decide the pace your comfortable with.
As an aside, at a younger age I shared your aversion to syringes. It wasn't the adminstering per se, but the perceived lack of control. What helped me was realising that 23 hours, 59 minutes and 55 seconds out of the day, I am in control -- those 5 seconds of needling (if that) pale in comparison.
Each time became easier after that. I hope you are able to overcome your aversion.
As an aside, at a younger age I shared your aversion to syringes. It wasn't the adminstering per se, but the perceived lack of control. What helped me was realising that 23 hours, 59 minutes and 55 seconds out of the day, I am in control -- those 5 seconds of needling (if that) pale in comparison.
Each time became easier after that. I hope you are able to overcome your aversion.
EDIT: I think blood sample is the wrong term, what I mean is blood count/work, where they take quite a bit of blood out of your arm. Not the small tests where they prick a finger.
> I hope you are able to overcome your aversion
Yeah, I hope so too. Thanks for the empathy. I've actually overcome my fear of vaccines. I can't sleep that well the night before and I'm still sweaty and stressed, but I know that it will just hurt a tiny little bit.
Giving blood samples is actually the big issue. I've had two of those as a kid, both times I became unconscious and once I had to throw up. Also had general anesthesia three times as a kid, I guess these five times where a needle had to go into my arm just traumatised me in some way. I hate the pain it gives me and the whole experience just really stresses my out. I'm actually getting sweaty palms right now, just because I'm writing/thinking about it :D
I recently went to the doctor because I started getting migraines. Doctor recommended me going to a Neurologist and mentioned that they would probably have to take blood samples, which was the reason that I refused. I just couldn't handle the thought of having to do it again.
The last blood sample I had to do was as a young teenager, like 10 years ago. I know that you should frequently test your blood to spot deficiencies, but I'm simply too scared...a bit embarassing to be honest. I've actually considered asking them to just give me nitrous oxide so that they can do it while I'm unconscious :D But I think nitrous oxide is an american thing, never heard of someone getting it where I live.
Anyways, no real sense to what I wrote, I just felt like documenting my thoughts about this situation. Actually feel quite queasy now. Time for some fresh air.
> I hope you are able to overcome your aversion
Yeah, I hope so too. Thanks for the empathy. I've actually overcome my fear of vaccines. I can't sleep that well the night before and I'm still sweaty and stressed, but I know that it will just hurt a tiny little bit.
Giving blood samples is actually the big issue. I've had two of those as a kid, both times I became unconscious and once I had to throw up. Also had general anesthesia three times as a kid, I guess these five times where a needle had to go into my arm just traumatised me in some way. I hate the pain it gives me and the whole experience just really stresses my out. I'm actually getting sweaty palms right now, just because I'm writing/thinking about it :D
I recently went to the doctor because I started getting migraines. Doctor recommended me going to a Neurologist and mentioned that they would probably have to take blood samples, which was the reason that I refused. I just couldn't handle the thought of having to do it again.
The last blood sample I had to do was as a young teenager, like 10 years ago. I know that you should frequently test your blood to spot deficiencies, but I'm simply too scared...a bit embarassing to be honest. I've actually considered asking them to just give me nitrous oxide so that they can do it while I'm unconscious :D But I think nitrous oxide is an american thing, never heard of someone getting it where I live.
Anyways, no real sense to what I wrote, I just felt like documenting my thoughts about this situation. Actually feel quite queasy now. Time for some fresh air.
Again, I completely understand. Something is taken from you, and the whole song and dance leading up to it can amplify the negative associations.
You have agency in this situation and should inform and communicate your anxieties to any attending nurse or physician, possibly in advance. There are guidelines and support protocols in place exactly because of the strangeness some medical procedures invoke.
At the same time, their (slight) discomfort is the 'price to pay' for a mind at ease. My advice: try and rationalise it to a fault. I'd wager millions have blood works taken each day, and are only better for it. You will be among them.
Dare I say, I've even learned to be intrigued by those little vials whenever I have my blood works done -- so much information can be gathered from so little. A life in need can be a beneficiary from less than a minute of your time.
Don't let the imprints of your childhood define you. There is much else to gain.
You have agency in this situation and should inform and communicate your anxieties to any attending nurse or physician, possibly in advance. There are guidelines and support protocols in place exactly because of the strangeness some medical procedures invoke.
At the same time, their (slight) discomfort is the 'price to pay' for a mind at ease. My advice: try and rationalise it to a fault. I'd wager millions have blood works taken each day, and are only better for it. You will be among them.
Dare I say, I've even learned to be intrigued by those little vials whenever I have my blood works done -- so much information can be gathered from so little. A life in need can be a beneficiary from less than a minute of your time.
Don't let the imprints of your childhood define you. There is much else to gain.
> Don't let the imprints of your childhood define you. There is much else to gain.
Very well said :) Appreciate it!
Very well said :) Appreciate it!
That's horrible. When I see a spider, I let it crawl on a piece of paper and move it outside.
And they don't go rappelling off the side? I always use a plastic container for spider relocation, so I only have to catch them once.
I take the opposite approach - any spider I see inside, even Black Widows, I carry outside in a cup. At least they then have a chance. And Widows will do their level best to nest somewhere far out-of-site and never bother you. I also encourage my neighbors to not sterilize around their houses with industrial bug spray because spiders and bugs are 99,999/100,000, nothing but beneficial.
Same. It can get tiresome in CA though! I'll take widows over recluses any day.
On the one occasion where I found an infestation too extensive to relocate (under almost every one of my outdoor chairs), I tried bug spray. Horrible. Thanks to CA's hysterical bans on everything, the spray is ineffective and merely tortures the spiders and often leaves them alive but maimed. I felt terrible. Never again.
On the one occasion where I found an infestation too extensive to relocate (under almost every one of my outdoor chairs), I tried bug spray. Horrible. Thanks to CA's hysterical bans on everything, the spray is ineffective and merely tortures the spiders and often leaves them alive but maimed. I felt terrible. Never again.
Why resort to bug spray when citrus and other scents will repel them naturally?
It was too late to repel them. The chairs were rife with brown-widow nests.
Anyway, now I just blast these areas with a hose from time to time. Individual spiders I will relocate if they're in an area where people are likely to sit.
There's a tiny baby spider roosting in my oven hood right now. The two last evenings he has descended on a web to look around. I considered putting him outside, but it's too cold so I just let him return to his hiding place.
Anyway, now I just blast these areas with a hose from time to time. Individual spiders I will relocate if they're in an area where people are likely to sit.
There's a tiny baby spider roosting in my oven hood right now. The two last evenings he has descended on a web to look around. I considered putting him outside, but it's too cold so I just let him return to his hiding place.
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I learnt to control my phobia over time, luckily I live somewhere where there's nothing dangerous or large, so I can leave them be.
I used to have a particular fear of jumping spiders, I blame the film "Arachnaphobia", I don't know why I agreed to see it, I was petrified the whole way through. I can handle it now, I made a point of trying more media that had spiders in them, from b movies to documentaries to photos.
But I don't think I could handle any of the bigger ones in the wild still, like tarantulas, or the absolutely massive Orb spider I saw in Africa once, ugh..
I used to have a particular fear of jumping spiders, I blame the film "Arachnaphobia", I don't know why I agreed to see it, I was petrified the whole way through. I can handle it now, I made a point of trying more media that had spiders in them, from b movies to documentaries to photos.
But I don't think I could handle any of the bigger ones in the wild still, like tarantulas, or the absolutely massive Orb spider I saw in Africa once, ugh..
They're not what you think, they're less than 1 mm lol
I know exactly what they are and I stand by my statement.
Not sure what you're on about. The article itself states they're typically 1mm to 2.3cm in length, and most of them that I've ever seen are closer to the 2cm than 1mm. Probably helps that just about anything 1mm in size looks about the same from a normal viewing distance, so there's reason to believe most people would have seen more from the bigger end of the spectrum.
Regardless of the size I quite like them, many are quite pretty and fascinating to watch.
Regardless of the size I quite like them, many are quite pretty and fascinating to watch.
Why?
In my opinion, many ancient cultures have known this for a long time. Of course the universe eats itself, everything seems to eat everything, that's natural, but having respect for this process is what I think we've lost.
Driving a car through a bunch of mating insects? Who cares right?
Driving a car through a bunch of mating insects? Who cares right?
> Driving a car through a bunch of mating insects? Who cares right?
That problem has been solved but not necessarily in a good way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windshield_phenomenon
That problem has been solved but not necessarily in a good way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windshield_phenomenon
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Now if we only engineered a retrovirus to uplift them into complex social structures and intelligence...
https://a.co/d/85Wwwhi
https://a.co/d/85Wwwhi
Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky is probably the best sci-fi I've read in the last 10 years. Its won the Arthur C Clarke award and recently the series (the other two books in the series are also great) won a Hugo
I just finished reading Children of Time and was indeed imagining that he was looking at earlier research on this subject, because the way he describes the spiders' initial thinking skills quite echos the article. It was very fun to read from that perspective!
loved the first 2 books, could not get through the 3rd
The more I learn about various living beings around us, the more I'm convinced that they are all unique, individual people, with unique opinions and desires. They have unique DNA and unique personalities.
If you've ever spent an extended period of time with any animal, you know that they all have different personalities and opinions that differ from other animals of the same species, eerily similar to humans. They truly are different people. Some are shy. Some are gregarious. Some are brave. Some are lazy. Some are dumb. Some are mean. They're all different.
I don't really know how to reconcile this feeling and I'm very much an omnivore but the thought is inescapable to me.
In order for you to keep living, something with a unique personality, opinions, and desires has to die. And that includes plants.
If you've ever spent an extended period of time with any animal, you know that they all have different personalities and opinions that differ from other animals of the same species, eerily similar to humans. They truly are different people. Some are shy. Some are gregarious. Some are brave. Some are lazy. Some are dumb. Some are mean. They're all different.
I don't really know how to reconcile this feeling and I'm very much an omnivore but the thought is inescapable to me.
In order for you to keep living, something with a unique personality, opinions, and desires has to die. And that includes plants.
Alan Watts used to say, it's ok to eat plants and animals, as long as when you cook them, you make something beautiful out of them to respect their sacrifice. It's the least you can do.
I feel there is some truth to this. Eventually, your body will be consumed by insects.
I feel there is some truth to this. Eventually, your body will be consumed by insects.
I don't think those beings that were killed care about that.
They no longer care about things, being dead. Care is for the living.
The mindset is for your own benefit, not the dead thing you're eating.
Well it's an inescapable fact that anything alive is going to die, and likely be eaten.
Basically all animals, and even plants (living creatures too) are going to die horrible deaths, being ripped apart by predators etc. We too, will likely be food for worms.
The point he is trying to make is to celebrate the life of whatever you're eating by at least making something special out of it an enjoying it rather than turning it into fast food junk which pointlessly ends up in the trash after 10 minutes in the burger warmer or whatever.
Basically all animals, and even plants (living creatures too) are going to die horrible deaths, being ripped apart by predators etc. We too, will likely be food for worms.
The point he is trying to make is to celebrate the life of whatever you're eating by at least making something special out of it an enjoying it rather than turning it into fast food junk which pointlessly ends up in the trash after 10 minutes in the burger warmer or whatever.
It's a weird way to celebrate a life when you do it after killing it for your own pleasure. We should aim at minimizing pain, not at creating feel-good rituals for our meals.
What do you suggest people eat then? Air?
The context was, even killing plants is wrong, so we should cook and enjoy those to the best of our ability.
You can say "plants aren't self-aware" or something, but there's no way out of it. Plants might even be home for insects or other creatures which die when you take the plants. Plants are living organisms and you shorten a beetroots life when you tug it out of the ground.
I think the point still stands. Be grateful for each meal and do your best to enjoy and savor it. It's not about "celebrating killing" you injected that into it. It's about showing respect.
The context was, even killing plants is wrong, so we should cook and enjoy those to the best of our ability.
You can say "plants aren't self-aware" or something, but there's no way out of it. Plants might even be home for insects or other creatures which die when you take the plants. Plants are living organisms and you shorten a beetroots life when you tug it out of the ground.
I think the point still stands. Be grateful for each meal and do your best to enjoy and savor it. It's not about "celebrating killing" you injected that into it. It's about showing respect.
Minimizing pain means eating less animals with developed nervous systems and more plants.
You can make all the rationalisations you want and operate however you see fit, but Homo Sapiens Sapiens is an omnivorous apex predator of the highest order.
Meat eating and tool use, borne out of the need to maximise the amount of calorie-dense food available are the reason we are here today discussing the finer points of vegetarianism.
Instead of being a blind zealot, I try to understand that life is a series of paradoxes and compromises. Balancing the fact that meat is good for me while minimising suffering for any plant and animal that crosses my path does feel more human than altogether discarding evolution, our DNA and place in the ecosystem for a wishy-washy ideology that only exists for people leading rich and comfortable lives.
Vegetarianism is a fine and commendable personal choice, as long as it doesn't devolve in proselytism.
Meat eating and tool use, borne out of the need to maximise the amount of calorie-dense food available are the reason we are here today discussing the finer points of vegetarianism.
Instead of being a blind zealot, I try to understand that life is a series of paradoxes and compromises. Balancing the fact that meat is good for me while minimising suffering for any plant and animal that crosses my path does feel more human than altogether discarding evolution, our DNA and place in the ecosystem for a wishy-washy ideology that only exists for people leading rich and comfortable lives.
Vegetarianism is a fine and commendable personal choice, as long as it doesn't devolve in proselytism.
The simplicity of my position hardly invites rationalization or blind belief. Even if you assume plants feel pain, you would still end up agreeing that vegetarianism is the correct choice, since it still minimizes the pain that would be caused by feeding animals with wasted calories from plants. On the contrary, it's you who is attaching yourself to misconceptions about what humans require to lead healthy lifes, even when you know (I mean, you can't be that blind) that plant diets can be as healthy (or arguably even more healthy).
IIRC Alan Watts believed that were are all one being, living every life in sequence, at different points in time. So you would at some point be the same chicken you slaughtered.
It's been many years, though, since I listened to him. And I was usually focused on other things. That may have been just a supposition on another point.
It's been many years, though, since I listened to him. And I was usually focused on other things. That may have been just a supposition on another point.
Is that moral justification for eating or stepping on the sentient being over the plant, just because they’re both alive?
If anything it's moral justification for not doing that. I was pointing out how I kill living things in order to remain alive, even though I think they are unique individual people and it's troubling and confusing to me (because in order to live, another thing has to die).
Unsolicited, but I just abstract it to energy.
I'm an energy well. They are an energy well. I can't hold off the march of entropy if I don't bring in more energy. So I absorb their well into mine.
Until we figure out how to integrate photosynthesis / photovoltaics into our bodies its not worth stressing out over the necessary survival process of killing other living things.
I'm an energy well. They are an energy well. I can't hold off the march of entropy if I don't bring in more energy. So I absorb their well into mine.
Until we figure out how to integrate photosynthesis / photovoltaics into our bodies its not worth stressing out over the necessary survival process of killing other living things.
Well it is worth thinking about if one energy well suffers and the other one does not.
We have very little reason to believe that a bean plant is sentient and experiences suffering to a comparable level like a factory-farmed chicken. It actually seems absurd.
(I eat meat, this is not a holy war for me.)
We have very little reason to believe that a bean plant is sentient and experiences suffering to a comparable level like a factory-farmed chicken. It actually seems absurd.
(I eat meat, this is not a holy war for me.)
Thinking seriously about it:
Of course you can try to minimize the sentience of what you eat - wheat < ants < pigs < people - which may be better than nothing, but I'm sure you've thought of that.
I heard of a small religion that eats only nuts and fruits, with the belief that the plants want them eaten - they evolved to make the nuts and fruits desireable in order to spread the plant's seeds. It's arguably still exploitation: The plants evolved that way because it is the least bad option among predators.
Of course you can try to minimize the sentience of what you eat - wheat < ants < pigs < people - which may be better than nothing, but I'm sure you've thought of that.
I heard of a small religion that eats only nuts and fruits, with the belief that the plants want them eaten - they evolved to make the nuts and fruits desireable in order to spread the plant's seeds. It's arguably still exploitation: The plants evolved that way because it is the least bad option among predators.
If panpsychism is true, then even the molecules our bodies cleave apart during digestion could be sentient.
[deleted]
How did you discover plants have unique opinions?
You could try to create an account for them on hn?
Uh-oh, I just read Children of Time ... and so it begins ... :-o
Same. 8-o
My first thought as well!
old news. I've seen articles on the intelligence of jumping spiders since the 1990s
That must be the dumbest title I've read in a longer while.
I always feel like these papers are excuses. Like: Whoops, we found out they are intelligent, while what really happend is that we over estimated our own intelligence and downplayed the lifeforms we can't understand.
Do yall ever think there could be more practical uses for research money than doing IQ tests on jumping spiders? These results could well be made up. After all, you'd hate to be the guy who spends years studying spiders just to conclude that they're about as stupid as everyone thinks they are.
> Do yall ever think there could be more practical uses for research money than doing IQ tests on jumping spiders?
Actually, I wish we allocated more money to biology and understanding the living rather than bullshit technology that literally is destroying the world (which is an observable fact).
> These results could well be made up.
Sure, but in terms of priority about "made up" results, I would first look at all those damn startups that literally make up results in order to get VC money.
Actually, I wish we allocated more money to biology and understanding the living rather than bullshit technology that literally is destroying the world (which is an observable fact).
> These results could well be made up.
Sure, but in terms of priority about "made up" results, I would first look at all those damn startups that literally make up results in order to get VC money.
> These results could well be made up.
OK, so how can we analyze whether results are made up, partially made up, credible, etc.?
> you'd hate to be the guy who spends years studying spiders just to conclude that they're about as stupid as everyone thinks they are.
I'm sure people would hate to fund that too, or have their lab or university associated with it. How could they avoid it?
OK, so how can we analyze whether results are made up, partially made up, credible, etc.?
> you'd hate to be the guy who spends years studying spiders just to conclude that they're about as stupid as everyone thinks they are.
I'm sure people would hate to fund that too, or have their lab or university associated with it. How could they avoid it?
> How could they avoid it?
By making up results, obviously. That's exactly what I was saying the first time.
By making up results, obviously. That's exactly what I was saying the first time.
These are real questions that people have been thinking hard about, and finding solutions for, for centuries. It would be valuable to explore them, IMHO.
That's actually a good point. The spider people should have looked into this instead. Much better ROI if they could solve it. Maybe they could even incorporate jumping spiders somehow. It would be excellent marketing.
You are missing out on a rich, interesting world. Good luck.
do you think they know that portia are smarter than most spiders by only studying portia? these are novel outcomes arrived at by attempting to prove observed theories, not flights of fancy for someone attached to a favorite species
If anyone is interested in this topic, I highly, highly recommend the book “Ways of Being” by James Bridle. [0]
It covers such a diverse range of ideas about intelligence, including neural network–style intelligences, that I think pretty much everyone would find something of interest.
One of the takeaways is that these intelligence-seeking experiments have been poorly designed for so long, that they tend to reveal way more about the humans running the experiment than the animals being researched. And part of that is due to how uncomfortable we are with admitting that animals have completely different (not better or worse) ways of being and thinking than us.
It makes you aware of the limitations of our hierarchy-and-comparison-based concepts. For example, even a simple phrase from this article:
> Although spiders can’t literally count one-two-three, the research suggests some jumping spiders have a sense of numbers roughly equivalent to that of 1-year-old humans.
The experiment doesn’t really prove that spiders can’t count, and surely if they did count it wouldn’t be by speaking out loud like we do. Saying that their faculties are equivalent to 1-year olds only really serves to diminish them. Not that I’m blaming the author, it’s just so easy to accidentally slip into these very limited ways of thinking.
[0]: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/58772732