Restoration of an IBM Thinkpad 701C Butterfly-keyboard laptop(blog.jgc.org)
blog.jgc.org
Restoration of an IBM Thinkpad 701C Butterfly-keyboard laptop
https://blog.jgc.org/2023/12/restoration-of-ibm-thinkpad-701c.html
44 comments
It would be good to include a video of it working, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChlD_ZfpPdw
Yeah. You're right. I kind of ran out of steam preparing everything for that blog post.
Thoroughly enjoyed the read and your coverage of the process. A couple questions: How pleased were you with the final texture and finish of the paint after your process? Seems it would be tricky to emulate the original rubberized finish with spray paint. I'm considering a restoration of an old ThinkPad with similar issues. Any steps you would do different or recommendations you would make for someone who is considering a restoration?
The thing I'd do differently with the paint is even more sanding. I've never tried something like this before and it's outside my usual skill set.
Same here, paint work is not my forte but I'm interested in learning more and improving my skill set in this area. I've found through various failed paint projects that surface prep is critical. I used to think that paint would 'fill in' minor surface issues like scratches but it seems to actually highlight them in some cases. Your paint job looks really nice though. Thanks for your insight and nice work on the restoration!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meeting where this idea was proposed. Was the initial laughter severe? Was it muted? Was it not laughter but actual "hmm" while thinking about it being a good idea? Like how many follow up pitches did it take?
I've been a part of meetings with pitches on how to solve something where I've been shot down and weeks spent on other ideas only for them to fail ultimately coming to my original suggestion to work. It is very satisfying. I'm guessing the person(s) that came up with this might have had a similar experience.
I've been a part of meetings with pitches on how to solve something where I've been shot down and weeks spent on other ideas only for them to fail ultimately coming to my original suggestion to work. It is very satisfying. I'm guessing the person(s) that came up with this might have had a similar experience.
Thinkpads used to be the best laptops and the only ones I would buy. They've cheapened out in the last decade or two, like most things, unfortunately.
IBM sold its PC division to Lenovo in 2005, so your timeframe correlates with the laptop division no longer being part of IBM.
Not that Lenovo is a bad company persay, but IBM was historically a company that focused on corporate sales and Lenovo is a company that seems to target the consumer market. As far as I can see, individual consumers are much more price sensitive than corporations. That would explain the steady decline in quality.
I'm certainly not an expert, so there are probably other valid explanations. Unicomp bought IBM's keyboard manufacturing division (or at least the equipment used to build model M keyboards), and experienced a decline in quality simply due to (allegedly) not updating the old tooling until fairly recently.
Not that Lenovo is a bad company persay, but IBM was historically a company that focused on corporate sales and Lenovo is a company that seems to target the consumer market. As far as I can see, individual consumers are much more price sensitive than corporations. That would explain the steady decline in quality.
I'm certainly not an expert, so there are probably other valid explanations. Unicomp bought IBM's keyboard manufacturing division (or at least the equipment used to build model M keyboards), and experienced a decline in quality simply due to (allegedly) not updating the old tooling until fairly recently.
What I find interesting is that the decline definitely exists but it's slow.
I might have expected something like 2-3 years until Thinkpads would be essentially toned down consumer devices, but it's nearly 20 years later now and Thinkpads (while certainly not legandary any longer) are still quite serviceable business laptops.
I might have expected something like 2-3 years until Thinkpads would be essentially toned down consumer devices, but it's nearly 20 years later now and Thinkpads (while certainly not legandary any longer) are still quite serviceable business laptops.
I'll have to take your word on recent Lenovo laptops. It's been well over a decade since I got my Yoga 11. The hinge on that laptop was quite good. The keyboard sucked though.
Perhaps they retained enough of the original employees that workflow and procedures remained similar, which resulted in similar products for a long time.
Certainly the tooling wouldn't have changed immediately.
Perhaps they retained enough of the original employees that workflow and procedures remained similar, which resulted in similar products for a long time.
Certainly the tooling wouldn't have changed immediately.
> Not that Lenovo is a bad company persay
The argument can certainly be made though. At least regarding their consumer laptop decision circa 2015 when, in addition to the quality issues, they were shipping the Superfish ad-ware which was installing a notably insecure self-signed root certificate to deliberately Man-in-the-Middle HTTPS connections so it could inject display ads. See:
- https://marcrogers.org/2015/02/19/lenovo-installs-adware-on-...
- https://blog.erratasec.com/2015/02/extracting-superfish-cert...
The argument can certainly be made though. At least regarding their consumer laptop decision circa 2015 when, in addition to the quality issues, they were shipping the Superfish ad-ware which was installing a notably insecure self-signed root certificate to deliberately Man-in-the-Middle HTTPS connections so it could inject display ads. See:
- https://marcrogers.org/2015/02/19/lenovo-installs-adware-on-...
- https://blog.erratasec.com/2015/02/extracting-superfish-cert...
I specifically said that because I DON'T want to discuss whether it's a good company or not.
I keep buying used T480 / T580 machines (last generation with easily swappable external battery, and also still easy to change battery and drive etc), and will keep my T25 (it has the good keyboard!) for as long as I can.
Oh wow, the T25, I'm jealous :)
I used to own the 701C that JGC restored and was super happy to see what he did with it! Now that I've owned that legend my wish-list still contains: T25, W700ds, Thinkpad 15th anniversary edition and the TransNote.
I used to own the 701C that JGC restored and was super happy to see what he did with it! Now that I've owned that legend my wish-list still contains: T25, W700ds, Thinkpad 15th anniversary edition and the TransNote.
Desktop computers are more modular than laptop computers are. It's much easier to replace a desktop computer's keyboard than it is to replace a laptop computer's keyboard. Power supply too. And monitor.
Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops when the mobility of laptops is kinda better than the mobility of desktops?
Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops when the mobility of laptops is kinda better than the mobility of desktops?
> Why are desktop computers first class citizens compared to laptops
This was true in the 90's, but I'm not sure any more. Desktops are a gamer or high-performance workstation thing now. Those who don't fit that demographic and can't get by with iPads/their phones have laptops, which I would say is the standard now. The new business class "desktops" are usually laptop-style hardware in a small form factor case.
Regarding modularity:
- No one bothered to create a standard laptop motherboard form-factor like there was for desktops.
- Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems.
- Thermal management is more difficult on a laptop due to the enclosed space, so laptops historically have been slower than desktops for the same amount of money. Those who want performance will trend towards desktops, and are also the same demographic that would be interested in expanding the hardware for performance reasons as well.
This was true in the 90's, but I'm not sure any more. Desktops are a gamer or high-performance workstation thing now. Those who don't fit that demographic and can't get by with iPads/their phones have laptops, which I would say is the standard now. The new business class "desktops" are usually laptop-style hardware in a small form factor case.
Regarding modularity:
- No one bothered to create a standard laptop motherboard form-factor like there was for desktops.
- Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems.
- Thermal management is more difficult on a laptop due to the enclosed space, so laptops historically have been slower than desktops for the same amount of money. Those who want performance will trend towards desktops, and are also the same demographic that would be interested in expanding the hardware for performance reasons as well.
> Laptops trend smaller over time. People are willing to sacrifice modularity for device size it seems.
Well, I have a different take on that, with miniaturity peaking at VGN-TX3 (as still usable, ofc there were a lot of even smaller ones, like P-series) and since then it's gravitated to 13.3"+ range. Most people around me bought 15.6"+ models, which are strictly in luggable category for me.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.htm...
Well, I have a different take on that, with miniaturity peaking at VGN-TX3 (as still usable, ofc there were a lot of even smaller ones, like P-series) and since then it's gravitated to 13.3"+ range. Most people around me bought 15.6"+ models, which are strictly in luggable category for me.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Sony-Vaio-VGN-TX3XP.1759.0.htm...
FWIW, I think the size reduction last several years (decade?) has been focused solely on the thinness side. The "netbooks" of yore - little 12" and 10" devices - seem to have been deemed a failed experiment by the general populace and manufacturers.
(I'm not saying that's my own personal perspective - I'm pretty much perennially opposite from mass market:)
(I'm not saying that's my own personal perspective - I'm pretty much perennially opposite from mass market:)
> The "netbooks" of yore - little 12" and 10" devices - seem to have been deemed a failed experiment by the general populace and manufacturers.
They device type didn't fail, just the Wintel-centric marketing category; Chromebooks were introduced while that marketing category was still active and eventually completely dominated that market; 11.6" Chromebooks are still manufactured and sold in decent quantities.
They device type didn't fail, just the Wintel-centric marketing category; Chromebooks were introduced while that marketing category was still active and eventually completely dominated that market; 11.6" Chromebooks are still manufactured and sold in decent quantities.
> They device type didn't fail
The netbooks, as a sub 10", cheap-as-fuck category, failed and I can't blame users on that. There is some rose tinted nostalgia around them, just like for the Nokia 'smartphones', but these were gutted on an every perceivable metric[0]
By the time they could catch up the market already had iPad and multiple Android tablets in 8" to 10" size, which solved the two main points for the populace: access to Internet and the touchscreen.
The result is what I had an (almost perfect) Acer W4-821 a decade ago and can't have anything even remotely comparable on x64 arch at all now.
[0] Like, come on! https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-Eee-PC-701-4G.6745.0.html
[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Iconia-W4-821.129255.0.ht...
The netbooks, as a sub 10", cheap-as-fuck category, failed and I can't blame users on that. There is some rose tinted nostalgia around them, just like for the Nokia 'smartphones', but these were gutted on an every perceivable metric[0]
By the time they could catch up the market already had iPad and multiple Android tablets in 8" to 10" size, which solved the two main points for the populace: access to Internet and the touchscreen.
The result is what I had an (almost perfect) Acer W4-821 a decade ago and can't have anything even remotely comparable on x64 arch at all now.
[0] Like, come on! https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-Eee-PC-701-4G.6745.0.html
[1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Acer-Iconia-W4-821.129255.0.ht...
> The netbooks, as a sub 10"
The upthread user was discussing 10-12", not sub-10", netbook included both. The sub-10” segment, where keyboards were of limited utility because they were too small for most people's hands, lost to smartphones/tablets, the 10"+ segment was won by Chromebooks.
> The result is what I had an (almost perfect) Acer W4-821 a decade ago and can't have anything even remotely comparable on x64 arch at all now.
But that's a tablet, not a netbook. That's a sign that Intel got displaced on even relatively powerful mobile devices, not the death of the netbook.
The upthread user was discussing 10-12", not sub-10", netbook included both. The sub-10” segment, where keyboards were of limited utility because they were too small for most people's hands, lost to smartphones/tablets, the 10"+ segment was won by Chromebooks.
> The result is what I had an (almost perfect) Acer W4-821 a decade ago and can't have anything even remotely comparable on x64 arch at all now.
But that's a tablet, not a netbook. That's a sign that Intel got displaced on even relatively powerful mobile devices, not the death of the netbook.
Modular is only possible when you can have some space that is empty. In a laptop if there is extra space you redesign everything to fill that space. Thus a modular laptop would be a bad thing: you could get either a smaller laptop, or something else you want in a laptop (like a bigger battery) if you would go non modular.
I'm more of a T530 fan. It's the last 15" Thinkpad that doesn't have a numeric keypad taking up space, and I've seen it reported that it is also the last one that IBM had a hand in designing.
Some folks have successfully integrated the T25 keyboard into T480 machines, which is definitely in the realm of a clever hack.
Some folks have successfully integrated the T25 keyboard into T480 machines, which is definitely in the realm of a clever hack.
T25 keyboard will go into T470 with a tiny bit of dremeling. I think it's a bit more work to get it into T480.
I have a couple of T420 and T420s at home; I did use T530 at work back in the day, but don't have one now as I find it lacks in portability compared to T450+ generations (plus a personal perspective that if you're gonna have all that 15+" space, you might as well have full keyboard - but that's very much subjective:).
T440/T540 was an abomination upon all that is holy, having witnessed two separate consulting architects slam laptops on the desk in frustration over its trackpad "buttons"!
Which is why the T470/570/480/580 seems to be my own sweet spot right now - lightweight enough to be portable, still runs modern stuff well enough, and easily replaceable battery/memory/SSD:).
I have a couple of T420 and T420s at home; I did use T530 at work back in the day, but don't have one now as I find it lacks in portability compared to T450+ generations (plus a personal perspective that if you're gonna have all that 15+" space, you might as well have full keyboard - but that's very much subjective:).
T440/T540 was an abomination upon all that is holy, having witnessed two separate consulting architects slam laptops on the desk in frustration over its trackpad "buttons"!
Which is why the T470/570/480/580 seems to be my own sweet spot right now - lightweight enough to be portable, still runs modern stuff well enough, and easily replaceable battery/memory/SSD:).
Good informaton. Thanks.
Man, I just want 15"-ish laptops with good displays and keyboards that don't leave me off-center.
I first used an Inspiron 6000i, and it was a fine machine for a decade or so despite being consumer-ish. I bought it new for a lot of money. I was young, but it never died. It still works.
I replaced it with a used Dell Precision M4500, which was a whole different class of machine: It was spectacularly useful, and the one-screw magnesium bottom-plate was amazing. The display was astoundingly good. But the machine died: As near as I can trace, the IC on the mainboard that controls the backlight gave up. A replacement mainboard did not correct the issue, presumably because it also died for the same reason.
The Precision M4600, the next newer model, has a numeric keypad, so I hate it. Same with other later Precision laptops.
I'm a lot less critical about key-feel than I am about being centered on the screen. I often use my laptops as literal-laptops, and keeping my eyes and body centered seems useful to me in ways that numeric keypads on laptops cannot allow.
I lust for a machine newer than my T530 that is also "serious" and that has a 15" display and that lacks a numeric keypad.
: I grew up on an 88-key XT keyboard, wherein NumLock was still useful and it allowed me to choose between having arrow keys or having a numeric keypad. I thus learned to use top-row numbers because that allowed me to use both top-row numbers and arrow-keys at the same time, without actuating NumLock. I have not changed. (I do not wish to change. I do wish to keep my hands mostly-centered on the screen, though.)
Man, I just want 15"-ish laptops with good displays and keyboards that don't leave me off-center.
I first used an Inspiron 6000i, and it was a fine machine for a decade or so despite being consumer-ish. I bought it new for a lot of money. I was young, but it never died. It still works.
I replaced it with a used Dell Precision M4500, which was a whole different class of machine: It was spectacularly useful, and the one-screw magnesium bottom-plate was amazing. The display was astoundingly good. But the machine died: As near as I can trace, the IC on the mainboard that controls the backlight gave up. A replacement mainboard did not correct the issue, presumably because it also died for the same reason.
The Precision M4600, the next newer model, has a numeric keypad, so I hate it. Same with other later Precision laptops.
I'm a lot less critical about key-feel than I am about being centered on the screen. I often use my laptops as literal-laptops, and keeping my eyes and body centered seems useful to me in ways that numeric keypads on laptops cannot allow.
I lust for a machine newer than my T530 that is also "serious" and that has a 15" display and that lacks a numeric keypad.
: I grew up on an 88-key XT keyboard, wherein NumLock was still useful and it allowed me to choose between having arrow keys or having a numeric keypad. I thus learned to use top-row numbers because that allowed me to use both top-row numbers and arrow-keys at the same time, without actuating NumLock. I have not changed. (I do not wish to change. I do wish to keep my hands mostly-centered on the screen, though.)
I had my fair share of IBM and Lenovo laptop repairs. They were OK, but far from best. Firmware was locked to certain (expensive) RAM modules and HDDs. Expensive motherboard replacement on first sign of troubles...
Panasonic Toughbook and Toshiba were better.
Panasonic Toughbook and Toshiba were better.
ThinkPads had some nice things, like the keyboard, but durability was never one of them. Whenever I open a laptop I still do this weird hand dance in order to try to use the minimal amount of force required. An habit I acquired after a handful of broken hinges in the 90s...
I did telephone tech support for Thinkpads in the mid 90s. It was a bit of a rare treat to actually take a call for the 701c because they were generally pretty solid. “Hello and thank you for calling the IBM PC call center. My name is ___, may I get your name and telephone number please?” … 10 hours a day, 4 days per week.
I've used and still own several early ThinkPads. The keyboards from this ThinkPad era are unmatched in overall tactile quality.
Different tastes I guess. As the previous owner, I've tried the exact keyboard from the blogpost quite a bit, and have been using ThinkPads for the last 20 years or so. I really enjoy the chiclet keyboard on my T14s g2. Sure, some things were nicer on my T400 (7 rows, media buttons), but the really old ones from 1992 and 1995 that I've also owned were much less nice to type on.
Agreed - I keep a T23 as a distraction-free writing machine.
I loved that laptop/keyboard back when I was a lowly tech support guy. I can't tell you how many major hotel execs had it ;)
The first time I saw that laptop was in the bar at a Hyatt. I am sure the lady thought I was a doofus but she was gracious enough to show it to me and let me open and close it a few times. That machine evoked the same feeling of quality that I only got from a few other devices; I put it in the same class as a hp15c, psp or iphone.
Congratulations on the huge job! Especially stripping the rubberized paint. Very fortunate that enough parts could be salvaged to make a working unit.
I am in the middle of refurbishing some Sony VAIOs as well. These most commonly have LCD polarizer failures.
I am in the middle of refurbishing some Sony VAIOs as well. These most commonly have LCD polarizer failures.
Brings back a memory of my buying a used one of those for my father back in the late 90s. I think he used it as a backup computer of sorts.
At one point I had a portable keyboard for my palm pilot that used similar folding tech. The keyboard when folded was very small - about the size of an iPhone in a large case.
I'm surprised nobody has released a bluetooth version of this keyboard for the iPad, I know I would buy one.
I'm surprised nobody has released a bluetooth version of this keyboard for the iPad, I know I would buy one.
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That's just a lovely resto. :)
I love the last photo. AOL, chef's kiss.
The HN title is misleading. This is an IBM ThinkPad 701C.
I thought this was some kind of restoration of something related to the old, vacuum-tube IBM 701 computer of 1952 vintage. The only hint I had that it might have been the iconic ThinkPad was the "butterfly keyboard" phrase.
The linked blog post makes it clear that this is indeed a ThinkPad and not an old 701.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_701
I thought this was some kind of restoration of something related to the old, vacuum-tube IBM 701 computer of 1952 vintage. The only hint I had that it might have been the iconic ThinkPad was the "butterfly keyboard" phrase.
The linked blog post makes it clear that this is indeed a ThinkPad and not an old 701.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_701
That does not look like a laptop to me.
Of course. I wondered "was that some portable version which was developed later for some purpose"? Such as for example, DEC developed "desktop VAX" boxes and such.